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Films of Sergio Leone => The Good, The Bad and The Ugly => Topic started by: Lil Brutto on February 09, 2011, 06:55:42 PM

Title: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Lil Brutto on February 09, 2011, 06:55:42 PM
As all of you that have viewed the Italian cut of GBU have noticed, there is a short segment missing when Blondie says, "Sorry, Tuco" before riding off with his share of the $200k in gold.

Any explanation why that bit was deleted? Did SL not intend for that bit to be included?
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Dirty Rat on February 11, 2011, 12:12:00 AM
Well it was certainly never in the version that I always knew - meaning the version we all grew up with before all of the Leone cuts were added back in.
So I would say yeah, it was not meant to be in there
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Lil Brutto on February 11, 2011, 12:32:53 AM
Are you saying that older international home video versions did not have this snippet? I'll have to view my laserdisc (released in the 80's) and see if it's included. That's the oldest international version I have.
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: cigar joe on February 11, 2011, 03:59:34 AM
Are you saying that older international home video versions did not have this snippet? I'll have to view my laserdisc (released in the 80's) and see if it's included. That's the oldest international version I have.

Yea, check that, I seem to remember it being there upon its initial release, but then again, I also seem to remember Indio in "For A Few Dollars More" parodying the baptizing his Colt SAA revolver in the broken down church upon its initial release.
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Groggy on February 11, 2011, 08:44:48 AM
Are you saying that older international home video versions did not have this snippet? I'll have to view my laserdisc (released in the 80's) and see if it's included. That's the oldest international version I have.

It's definitely on my old VHS copy.
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Lil Brutto on February 11, 2011, 06:45:15 PM
It's included in both the 80s (P&S 1.33:1) and the mid-90s (widescreen 2.35:1) laserdisc releases. It's also included in all DVD and BD releases so I don't think there's an international home video release that excludes that scene.
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Dirty Rat on February 13, 2011, 11:14:29 AM
Hmm, there's definitely something new about that scene, but I can't argue with the evidence you guys have produced.
Is it the shot of Blondie's horse raising it's front legs really dramatically and Tuco's really pathetic call to him "Blondi-he.." that is new?
It's only a couple of frames but still
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 21, 2011, 11:42:04 PM
I just skimmed through my copies of BBC CVC DVD, BBC Mondo BD and GBU SE BD and I noticed something interesting. As mentioned above, the CVC DVD and Mondo BD do not have the scene in question. However, I thought I'd select the Italian mono 2.0 soundtrack when viewing this scene on the MGM SE BD and Blondie says sorry in Italian, "scusa". It's definitely the voice of the actor used in the rest of the movie so Blondie's line wasn't added for the sake of conforming to MGM's cut of the film.

Dirty Rat, this brief segment comes right after the scene you described above.
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Dirty Rat on May 22, 2011, 12:15:13 PM
Ah, I see what you mean.
Yes, the "Sorry Tuco" bit was always in my old videos, just the bit wher the horse does his thing that wasn't.
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 22, 2011, 12:28:48 PM
Yes, the "Sorry Tuco" bit was always in my old videos, just the bit wher the horse does his thing that wasn't.

I was under the impression it was but I'll have to check my laserdiscs (which I presume have the same cuts of the film as VHS releases) if the footage of the horsing showing off is included.
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 22, 2011, 01:24:12 PM
I just viewed my laserdiscs and both versions include the horse raising its legs. It's a brief shot just before the cut to Tuco saying, "Blond-ie" and subsequently cutting to Blondie saying, "Sorry, Tuco".
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 23, 2011, 01:08:26 PM
Ah, I see what you mean.
Yes, the "Sorry Tuco" bit was always in my old videos, just the bit wher the horse does his thing that wasn't.

It seems the Italians were denied the privilege of viewing the horse showing of his skills because both scenes (horse being fancy and Blondie saying sorry) are cut from the CVC DVD and Mondo BD.
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Dirty Rat on May 24, 2011, 11:59:41 AM
I'm more confused now than I was the first time that I watched Where Eagles Dare!
Only kidding Farmer, keep it coming. Any talk about this film is good as far as I am concerned.

I don't want to start getting on people's nerves with this but I am sure that there is a couple of frames worth of film from this bit that were never on the UK TV version throughout the 80's (when Alex Cox introduced it), the 90's or either of the 2 vhs versions that I bought. Basically the UK version as we knew it before any extras were put back in.

I know it doesn't really matter in the scheme of things but heck, thinking about it, it really does matter to us Leone Freaks!
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 24, 2011, 01:14:11 PM
I know it doesn't really matter in the scheme of things but heck, thinking about it, it really does matter to us Leone Freaks!

You're right, it doesn't at all matter and non-Leone freaks would probably think we got a few screws loose to dwell on something so trivial (in their eyes, of course...not ours!) but it just shows that there were more subtle differences than simply deleting 7 scenes from the Italian cut for the international release.

To clarify, the Italian home releases that I own (CVC DVD and Mondo BD) do not include the scenes of the horse showing off or Blondie saying sorry, whereas the North American releases I own do (80's CBS/Fox P&S LD, 90's MGM widescreen LD, MGM DVD and MGM SE BD).

From what you're saying the older UK releases also excluded these 2 scenes.

Hope this clarifies.
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Dirty Rat on May 25, 2011, 11:28:34 AM
It does, thanks Farmer
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 09, 2011, 08:13:05 PM
Yea, check that, I seem to remember it being there upon its initial release, but then again, I also seem to remember Indio in "For A Few Dollars More" parodying the baptizing his Colt SAA revolver in the broken down church upon its initial release.

I have heard Frayling mention the gun-baptizing as a deleted scene (possibly due to censors, who found that too offensive); I never knew that was actually released (at least in USA)
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: stanton on June 10, 2011, 01:33:52 AM
I read this too, but it seems this scene was actually never part of any released version. If it ever was shot:
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 10, 2011, 09:34:59 AM
I read this too, but it seems this scene was actually never part of any released version. If it ever was shot:

it seemed from Frayling (I think on the FAFDM dvd commentary) that it was indeed shot
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 10, 2011, 01:32:30 PM
Good spot on this, I never noticed it! Yet another weird difference, the two cuts of G.B.U. (even after the "english extended version") still are quite different. The beating scene is not only shorter in the U.S. version, it's actually structured differently as well. And then there is the very different versions of the music over the last three way duel...I'm sure going side by side there would be other differences as well...

Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 10, 2011, 02:14:38 PM
I watched the full torture scene the other day and afterwards I've been wishing it was included in its entirety. It shows that Tuco suffered a much more severe beating before talking (i.e. demonstrates he's tougher), especially the extended scene where Wallace is squeezing his eyeballs deeper into his sockets. I really love the deleted shot where Angel Eyes leans toward Tuco as Wallace delivers the final method of torture with his thumbs. It's a great shot.
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: stanton on June 10, 2011, 02:48:15 PM
I really love the deleted shot where Angel Eyes leans toward Tuco as Wallace delivers the final method of torture with his thumbs. It's a great shot.

I think this shot was in the theatrical German version. There were some alternative shots on the DVD, and they had to add for these alternative shots a new dub with a different voice, it was maybe this shot.
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 10, 2011, 03:31:25 PM
I watched the full torture scene the other day and afterwards I've been wishing it was included in its entirety. It shows that Tuco suffered a much more severe beating before talking (i.e. demonstrates he's tougher), especially the extended scene where Wallace is squeezing his eyeballs deeper into his sockets. I really love the deleted shot where Angel Eyes leans toward Tuco as Wallace delivers the final method of torture with his thumbs. It's a great shot.

I just compared the italian copies I have, VS the US extended cut & U.S original dvd cut. The shot is in both the US cuts but not the italian ones...again another weird difference in the U.S. cuts favor.
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 10, 2011, 04:40:08 PM
I just compared the italian copies I have, VS the US extended cut & U.S original dvd cut. The shot is in both the US cuts but not the italian ones...again another weird difference in the U.S. cuts favor.

EDIT: I reviewed the Italian DVDs and I know what scene you're talking about now, the shot of AE leaning forward toward the camera. I didn't realize the Italian cuts were missing that shot too!

ANOTHER EDIT AFTER VIEWING JK's VIDEO: The shot I was referring to in my previous post is found in the full torture scene only and REPLACES the shot of AE leaning forward in the US cuts. The camera is over AE's left shoulder and slowly pans in as he's leaning over Tuco screaming on the table. THERE IS ALSO AN EXTRA CU OF WALLACE IMMEDIATELY AFTER THIS SHOT. So basically Tuco gets his eyeballs crushed for longer and understandably agrees to talk.
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 11, 2011, 09:15:17 AM
EDIT: I reviewed the Italian DVDs and I know what scene you're talking about now, the shot of AE leaning forward toward the camera. I didn't realize the Italian cuts were missing that shot too!

The shot I was referring to in my previous post is found in the full torture scene only and comes right after the shot of AE leaning forward in the US cuts. The camera is over AE's left shoulder and slowly pans in as he's leaning over Tuco screaming on the table. So basically Tuco gets his eyeballs crushed for longer and understandably agrees to talk.

I made a quick and dirty comparison video of all 3 :

http://jordankrug.com/Screening_Room/leone2/eyeballs3cutscompare.mov

1. Italian - missing a lee van cleef shot btw the eyeball wallace shots
2. U.S. - Cu of van cleef in between
3. Deleted/Uncut Italian - over the shoulder of Van Cleef in between

I wonder which one would be "official" and if there are any MORE shots unique to the U.S. version (which would be my last guess at having anything unique!) One of these days I'll attempt a version of the beating scene which uses ALL the possible shots from every version.

Ignore the weird white squares around the vid, it's because the source files I had were all different codecs and ratios..


Here is also a quick reference on the shots (quite a few) missing from the "sorry Tuco" sequence in the italian version (again quality is dicey but it serves the purpose it needs to)

http://jordankrug.com/Screening_Room/leone2/sorrytucocompare.mov

Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 11, 2011, 10:56:28 AM
Those are excellent videos, Jordan. I wish I had the technical skill and resources to do that. Is it possible for me to download them for future reference?

---

I've been trying to compare uncut vs US vs Italian for the torture scene according to the lyrics of "Story of a Soldier". Very crude and questionably useful...

As sung in extended torture sequence (italicized = repeated lyrics):

Bugles are calling from prairie to shore, Sign up and fall in and march off to war; [Tuco on table, AE and Wallace look at each other]
Drums beating loudly, hearts beating proudly March blue and gray and smile as you go.
Smoke hides the valleys and fire paints the plains, Loud roar ["more feeling"] the cannons till ruin remains;
Blue grass and cotton burnt and forgotten, All hope seems gone so, soldier, march on to die. [Prisoner glances over at Blondie behind fence]
[Cut to torture; Tuco struggles on table; AE further interrogates Tuco, then AE nods…]
Count all the crosses and count all the tears, These are the losses and sad souvenirs; [Cut to Tuco getting beat down; AE presses tobacco into his pipe]
This devastation once was a nation So fall the dice, how high is the price. ["How is your digestion now?"]
Bugles are calling from prairie to shore, Sign up and fall in and march off to war.
Smoke hides the valleys and fire paints the plains, Loud roar the cannons till ruin remains; [Violinist stops playing here]
Blue grass and cotton burnt and forgotten All hope seems gone so, soldier, [Violinist starts playing again] march on to die.
[Guard says something in Italian; close-ups of band members; close-ups of Blondie and other prisoner, then prisoners says something to Blondie behind fence]
There in [Cut back to torture] the distance a flag I can see, Scorched [Wallace presses thumbs into Tuco’s eyes] and in ribbons but whose can it be;
How ends the story, whose is the glory, [Wallace stops pressing] Ask if we dare our comrades out there who sleep. [“where”?]


Lyrics to The Story of A Soldier as sung on MGM DVD (italicized = repeated lyrics):

Bugles are calling from prairie to shore, Sign up and fall in and march off to war; [Tuco on table, AE and Wallace look at each other]
Drums beating loudly, hearts beating proudly March blue and gray and smile as you go.
Smoke hides the valleys and fire paints the plains, [Cut to Blondie and prisoner behind fence] Loud roar the cannons till ruin remains [Prisoner glances over at Blondie behind fence];
Blue grass and cotton [Cut to torture; Tuco struggles on table] burnt and forgotten All hope seems gone so, soldier, march on to die. ["Was Carson dead or alive when you found him?"]
Count all the crosses and ["What did he tell you about the money?"] count all the tears, These are the losses and sad souvenirs; [Wallace and AE glance over at another] This devastation once was a nation (more feeling) So fall the dice, how high is the price.
There in the distance a flag I can see, [Cuts to prisoner talking to Blondie behind fence] Scorched and in ribbons but whose can it be; How ends the story, whose is the glory, Ask if we dare our comrades out ["How is your digestion now?"] there who sleep. ["I have nothing to tell you."]
[Violin solo…abrupt end…."play that fiddle you!"]
Count all the crosses and count all the tears, These are the losses and sad souvenirs;
This devastation
[Wallace presses thumbs into Tuco’s eyes] once was a nation So fall the dice ["I talk"], how high is the price [Wallace stops pressing] we pay.

I still need to analyze the Italian cut but, as you all know, the cut is significantly different.


Comparison of torture scene durations:

6:52 - EXTENDED TUCO TORTURE (MGM EXTRA)
5:02 - MGM SE DVD
4:10 - CVC DVD

1999 MGM DVD, Mondo BD - yet to calculate duration
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 13, 2011, 10:50:52 AM
Feel free to download them (just right click or option click on the link)

I watched the uncut torture scene today, and I think it's important to note that it is labelled as being from the "premiere cut". I think the description makes it seem as if Leone was FORCED to cut the scene down because of the negative damage,  but watching it again, to be honest it drags on and on, many of the shots they cut are of soldiers mouthing the words (of a different song or the italian lyrics to this one) that don't match the music at all.  I agree the extra shots of the beating are good, and I like the new C.U. of the old guy beside Eastwood...but the rest of the shots seem redundant.  I believe, as with the case of the grotto scene (Tuco recruiting the bandits) Leone watched this with an audience at the premiere and decided to cut it all down (not sure if he cut it down to the italian version, I guess more likely the U.S. since it is longer) for the better pace of the scene, not just because he had to.

I think the scene plays very well at it's current length in both versions, and I'm kinda glad this wasn't restored to the S.E. cut, although I'm also grateful they included it on the dvd as it's interesting to see. Much like the extended OATITW, it doesn't feel like the polished version we know and love, but it's fun to see an earlier "draft" of the film. I wonder if they found a copy of the ENTIRE premiere cut as I'm sure there would have been other little changes here and there as well.

Thanks for taking the time H.F. to note the runtimes and the lyrics, I found it hard to make them out in the film..
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 13, 2011, 10:56:03 AM
from LeoneNut: Full length beating scene of FAFDM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCQp9rnsuEk
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 13, 2011, 01:43:07 PM
I wonder if they found a copy of the ENTIRE premiere cut as I'm sure there would have been other little changes here and there as well.

Thanks for taking the time H.F. to note the runtimes and the lyrics, I found it hard to make them out in the film..

My pleasure.

The Rome Premiere cut would indeed be interesting to see.
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 14, 2011, 07:20:23 AM
This is an interesting link, highlights some differences between the first MGM u.s. cut and the extended that I wasn't aware of (besides the deleted scenes there are a few new shots here and there)

http://movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=1622&In=Quer
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: stanton on June 14, 2011, 11:38:23 AM
I know this report. These are translations from a German web site. It is called Schnittberichte.com and contains hundreds of these reports about different versions.

The MGM disc runs now for 178 min, while the Italian theatrical version is given with 180 or 182 min. But as far as I know MGM used here already an Italian master, and therefore are some more small bits in the film apart from the new scenes.

And the cave scene probably was never counted for the Italian runtime. It shoulddn't be in the film anyway. there was an Italian re-release in 1982 for which Leone restored a few scenes which were cut out shortly after the premiere, but the cave scenes wasn't amongst them. Without it the runtime is 175 min.

Imo "cut 7" and "cut 9" could also be skipped. Especially "cut 7" is totally superfluous.

And the extended torture scene is really much too long. But these guys surely would have used it if found in a better condition.
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: The clint on November 25, 2011, 03:14:46 PM
And the extended torture scene is really much too long. But these guys surely would have used it if found in a better condition.

I'm not so sure about that. You've probably noticed that the extended scene (as well as the official Italian cut for that matter) feature a completely different take of "The Story of a Soldier" to the international release version. Since there are are no surviving separate English dialogue tracks, they would've had to overlap the English bits with the extended ones, creating noticeable edits in the music. The take used for the Italian version was cut from about 7:20 to 3:57 for the original soundtrack, but the extended soundtrack featured the take used in the international version running 5:34. It's obvious that the entire sequence was completely re-edited to sync with the latter take (especially noticeable in the violin parts). The Italian cut version used a different (and much cruder) approach, simply cross-fading the audio around the cut parts, resulting in very strange lapses in time signature during the entire scene!

There are more differences between the versions though. One that I noticed immediately is that the final shot of Tuco screaming "just a dirty son of a bitch!" seems to exist in two different takes: one in which he is screaming the Italian line, the other in which he is screaming the English line.
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Lil Brutto on November 26, 2011, 01:55:46 AM
I'm not so sure about that. You've probably noticed that the extended scene (as well as the official Italian cut for that matter) feature a completely different take of "The Story of a Soldier" to the international release version. Since there are are no surviving separate English dialogue tracks, they would've had to overlap the English bits with the extended ones, creating noticeable edits in the music. The take used for the Italian version was cut from about 7:20 to 3:57 for the original soundtrack, but the extended soundtrack featured the take used in the international version running 5:34. It's obvious that the entire sequence was completely re-edited to sync with the latter take (especially noticeable in the violin parts). The Italian cut version used a different (and much cruder) approach, simply cross-fading the audio around the cut parts, resulting in very strange lapses in time signature during the entire scene!

There are more differences between the versions though. One that I noticed immediately is that the final shot of Tuco screaming "just a dirty son of a bitch!" seems to exist in two different takes: one in which he is screaming the Italian line, the other in which he is screaming the English line.

Very impressive observations! I too believe the Italian version of the beating scene is more crude.

I can't believe I didn't notice that there were 2 different takes of Tuco screaming!! Still learning new things about this movie, thanks to the valuable input of members like you.  O0

Are there any more differences other than the scenes excised from the international cut?
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: The clint on December 19, 2011, 02:55:51 PM
Are there any more differences other than the scenes excised from the international cut?

I think all that I know of have been covered, but if I find more I'll be sure to post them  ;)
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: emmo26 on June 27, 2012, 03:28:19 PM


SORRY TUCO vs SORRY SHORTY
======================

Blonde apologised to Shorty for letting him die.  So is Blondie apologising to Tuco for letting him live???
Title: Re: Why is "Sorry, Tuco" excised from the Italian version?
Post by: Senza on March 01, 2013, 03:35:07 AM
He was just fucking with him.