Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => Duck, You Sucker => Topic started by: drinkanddestroy on March 14, 2011, 02:51:32 PM



Title: DYS soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 14, 2011, 02:51:32 PM
I have found 3 YouTube videos which combine to show some (or possibly all?) of  the soundtrack differences between the original version and the "special edition" of DYS.

I will link to them here in the order in which these sequences appear in the film

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ayEhkxyMR0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg_hPzmZYC4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOc13iAmXPc

In each clip, the original version is shown first, followed by the "special edition" version

I always hate when idiots from a studio mess with a Master's work. With that said, I specifically cannot stand the alteration of the music in the final flashback sequence (in the last of the links above). So some idiots in a studio decide that they want to impose a different interpretation of the final scene than Leone intended. (Not to mention that when you consider their music, Coburn's final extended smile during that flashback makes no sense). F&^%$#% 'em!


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: Dust Devil on March 15, 2011, 03:16:34 AM
I have had a problem with this for a long time, in general I mean, but also (though not as much) in DYS' case. (Of all SL's movies I watched DYS considerably less times than the others.)


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: Dust Devil on March 15, 2011, 03:20:38 AM
I might have mentioned this also in the example of the various editions/cuts of The Blues Brothers, in which the difference is more noticeable. Unfortunately and apparently, not as much to the others, as I haven't heard anybody complain. I don't understand, it is not a minor concern and certainly not an improvement, for me it completely changes the feeling of that particular scene, for worse.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: Dust Devil on March 15, 2011, 03:22:56 AM
Blade Runner is another example I can think of, and maybe the 'improved' gunshots in GBU should fall in the same category.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: cigar joe on March 15, 2011, 04:32:52 AM
I have a hard time with the music, its easier with the gunshots and edited curses, but I have a harder time noticing subtle differences in the music, especially DYS which like DD I haven't watched nearly as much as the others (save OUTIA). Even with those comparisons is the music just not starting at the right spot in the film or is it actually different..


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 15, 2011, 06:04:33 AM
Blade Runner is another example I can think of, and maybe the 'improved' gunshots in GBU should fall in the same category.

I don't think I ever heard the original GBU audio (the only formats I have watched GBU in are iTunes and the Special Edition dvd). Is there any way to get the original?


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: Dust Devil on March 15, 2011, 06:58:26 AM
Is there any way to get the original?

Must be available somewhere on the net. ;)


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: Cusser on March 15, 2011, 07:20:47 AM
I don't think I ever heard the original GBU audio (the only formats I have watched GBU in are iTunes and the Special Edition dvd). Is there any way to get the original?

Single-disc GBU DVD likely still available, and for under $10.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: dave jenkins on March 15, 2011, 08:06:15 AM
This should give you what you want: http://www.amazon.com/Good-Bad-Ugly-Clint-Eastwood/dp/6304698798/ref=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1300197781&sr=1-1


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 15, 2011, 08:18:17 AM
but these single discs would be the original 1967 release, which is about 17 minutes shorter, correct?


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: Dust Devil on March 15, 2011, 08:39:07 AM
There's no pint, only the gunshots were altered as far as I can tell.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: stanton on March 15, 2011, 08:56:13 AM
but these single discs would be the original 1967 release, which is about 17 minutes shorter, correct?

Yes the shorter version, but with the original mono sound.

The additional scenes are there as bonus in Italian with subs.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: dave jenkins on March 15, 2011, 10:36:14 AM
Yes, your choice is either the 2003 reconstruction with the new foley, or the original U.S. version with the original effects and the shorter runtime. There are no other English language versions.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 15, 2011, 11:13:14 AM
There's no pint, only the gunshots were altered as far as I can tell.


so all the music, dialogue, natural sounds etc. all sound exactly the same?


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: Dust Devil on March 15, 2011, 11:16:42 AM


so all the music, dialogue, natural sounds etc. all sound exactly the same?

From my knowledge, except for the gunshots: yes.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 15, 2011, 11:21:23 AM
From my knowledge, except for the gunshots: yes.

aiight. well I ain't that much of a Leone nerd to worry about that too much  ;)


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: cigar joe on March 15, 2011, 08:04:23 PM
aiight. well I ain't that much of a Leone nerd to worry about that too much  ;)

yet.....


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 11, 2011, 02:42:08 AM
I have a hard time with the music, its easier with the gunshots and edited curses, but I have a harder time noticing subtle differences in the music, especially DYS which like DD I haven't watched nearly as much as the others (save OUTIA). Even with those comparisons is the music just not starting at the right spot in the film or is it actually different..

in the final flashback, the song that plays on the Original Version and on the Special Edition are similar (the main theme or some variation thereof); however, on the SE it stops and re-starts in middle, which imposes a completely different meaning of that scene. Here is that link again that shows the two different versions of the final flashback http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOc13iAmXPc (the OV is first, followed by the SE).

In the OV, the song plays continuously, even as Sean passes the girl off to Nolan. IMO, this signals Sean's approval (if perhaps a bit grudging) of Nolan's love for his girl. Of course, as we see earlier, there is understandably some slight tension there, but overall they are all close friends and are relatively accepting of the love triangle. This fits well with Sean's final smile in the flashback (ie. indicating his peace with the situation), and further emphasizes what good friends they were and therefore the depth of Nolan's betrayal.

However, in the SE, the idiots at the studio stop the music after Sean finishes kissing the girl, and re-start it when Nolan begins doing the same; this would indicate that rather than one relatively harmonious love triangle, there is very significant tension between them cuz of the love triangle; therefore Sean's final smile in that flashback makes no sense


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: dave jenkins on May 11, 2011, 02:37:56 PM
In the OV, the song plays continuously, even as Sean passes the girl off to Nolan. IMO, this signals Sean's approval (if perhaps a bit grudging) of Nolan's love for his girl. Of course, as we see earlier, there is understandably some slight tension there, but overall they are all close friends and are relatively accepting of the love triangle. This fits well with Sean's final smile in the flashback (ie. indicating his peace with the situation), and further emphasizes what good friends they were and therefore the depth of Nolan's betrayal.

However, in the SE, the idiots at the studio stop the music after Sean finishes kissing the girl, and re-starts it when Nolan begins doing the same; this would indicate that rather than one relatively harmonious love triangle, there is very significant tension between them cuz of the love triangle; therefore Sean's final smile in that flashback makes no sense
Excellent points!  O0


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: Novecento on May 11, 2011, 10:46:16 PM
iHowever, in the SE, the idiots at the studio stop the music after Sean finishes kissing the girl, and re-start it when Nolan begins doing the same; this would indicate that rather than one relatively harmonious love triangle, there is very significant tension between them cuz of the love triangle; therefore Sean's final smile in that flashback makes no sense

I don't understand why studios mess around with audio like this.

Why do we have to wait for Scorcese to ensure we get the correct closing music to OUATITW for example?


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 12, 2011, 05:15:37 AM
I don't understand why studios mess around with audio like this.

Why do we have to wait for Scorcese to ensure we get the correct closing music to OUATITW for example?

1. CUZ THE STUDIO PEOPLE ARE IDIOTS! They think they can improve the work of the Master. But YOU CANNOT POSSIBLY IMPROVE PERFECTION!

2. I once heard something about the closing music in OUATITW being different; but if that is the case, I do not think I ever actually heard the original one.

So let me get this straight, once and for all: Are you saying that on the dvd we have of OUATITW, the closing music is different than it was originally intended by Leone; but Scorcese has now discovered and restored the original? (If yes, can someone post a link to the proper ending music?)
Thanks  O0


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: stanton on May 12, 2011, 09:03:38 AM
Yes, the closing music is wrong on the Paramount DVDs based on the English master. But again, it doesn't hurt the film.

At some point it changes from the America (or Jill) theme to the Cheyenne theme, which doesn't make any sense, while in the original version the America theme goes on until the end.


And in case you don't know, the opening scene is about 1 min shorter than it should be. I never checked if there are further small cuts, which is possible.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: The clint on December 19, 2011, 03:21:42 PM
Yes, the closing music is wrong on the Paramount DVDs based on the English master. But again, it doesn't hurt the film.

At some point it changes from the America (or Jill) theme to the Cheyenne theme, which doesn't make any sense, while in the original version the America theme goes on until the end.

I'm sorry, but this isn't entirely correct. Both English and Italian versions switch to Cheyenne's theme during the credits, it just so happens that the credits come later in the Italian version. There's no way they can alter the English version to resemble the Italian version unless they were to re-do both the title and end-credits, or just use the Italian title and credits.

For reference, here is the Italian finale, title and end credits sequence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znfd98Qv7f8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znfd98Qv7f8)


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 20, 2011, 12:52:01 AM
The AWESOME article posted here http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=10564.0  should explain everything about the various versions of OUATITW


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: stanton on December 20, 2011, 03:05:04 AM
I'm sorry, but this isn't entirely correct. Both English and Italian versions switch to Cheyenne's theme during the credits, it just so happens that the credits come later in the Italian version. There's no way they can alter the English version to resemble the Italian version unless they were to re-do both the title and end-credits, or just use the Italian title and credits.

For reference, here is the Italian finale, title and end credits sequence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znfd98Qv7f8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znfd98Qv7f8)

You can read the thread which d&d has linked above. Everything is there about the differences.

But in short:

The America theme is played to the end (just like on the soundtrack) in the Italian version. Then follows the Cheyenne theme as exit music over black screen (that's if a cinema then has played exit music), but it is not directly part of the film. The Youtube video shows the long Italian version (which is imo not a DC) which plays the exit music over a freeze frame, but still after the film has already ended.

The Paramount version replaces the last part of the America theme with the Cheyenne music, which is wrong. And it is a bit disappointing that they still haven't changed it for the Blu Ray release. And that the Scorsese restoration didn't either.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: The clint on December 20, 2011, 05:46:52 PM
The Youtube video shows the long Italian version (which is imo not a DC) which plays the exit music over a freeze frame, but still after the film has already ended.

It is indeed a freeze-frame, but the credits are rolling over it so it can hardly be called "exit music". Do you mean that the original Italian cut didn't feature any end credits?

And this happens to be the only Italian version I've ever encountered... How long is the Italian cut you consider a DC and how can I obtain it?


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: stanton on December 21, 2011, 03:24:43 AM
I still consider the original Italian theatrical version as the DC. Same version which was released in Germany and France and probably in any other country where it was released uncut. According to the Video Watchdog article linked above this was also the original US and UK version, before several scenes were cut out (but partly different ones in both countries).
This version runs about 165 min + 2:30 min exit music over a black screen. This exit music was never part of the German version, which I have seen about 15 - 20 times in the theatres since 1980. The last time 3 years ago on a very big screen.
In this version the credits start earlier (similar to the Paramount version) than in the 177 min Italian version you are referring too. The credits end when the music ends and the screen goes black. This long version is interesting to watch, but I think the film works better in the 165 min version.

Unfortunately in Italy the 177 min was the one released on DVD, and in the rest of the world only the Paramount version is distributed since the mid 90s. Which means that the original theatrical version was so far never released on DVD, but still plays in the theatres here in Germany, and maybe in other countries. And as the situation is it probably will never get released.
The Video Watchdog article tells you how it (most likely) could happen that the Paramount version is not completely identical to the original version. It is a good version, but not the best possible.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 21, 2011, 05:53:35 AM
I'm generally not a stickler for staying on topic, but since this discussion of OUATITW endings is a continuation of important discussions on this issue that have been going on here, I'd suggest that this conversation be continued here, where this stuff has been discussedd http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=10219.150   or on the thread with the scanned article here http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=10564.0     O0 (and perhaps before you continue it on one of those threads, you'd also wanna copy these posts here and pasting them there).

Just a suggestion, cuz this is an important issue and it would be helpful for members to be able find it if it's in a properly labeled thread  O0


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 21, 2011, 06:08:02 AM
Excellent points!  O0

these points -- which are indeed excellent -- are not my own; I am basically repeating something I read (maybe on a post on these boards?) but I can't recall where


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: stanton on December 21, 2011, 06:29:01 AM
I'm generally not a stickler for staying on topic, but since this discussion of OUATITW endings is a continuation of important discussions on this issue that have been going on here, I'd suggest that this conversation be continued here, where this stuff has been discussedd http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=10219.150   or on the thread with the scanned article here http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=10564.0     O0 (and perhaps before you continue it on one of those threads, you'd also wanna copy these posts here and pasting them there).

Just a suggestion, cuz this is an important issue and it would be helpful for members to be able find it if it's in a properly labeled thread  O0

Yes, if there is something more to discuss we should do it here: http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=10219.150

But so far nothing was said which wasn't already discussed there.

@ the Clint: on page 8 of that threas you find 3 YouTube links which show you the differences between the German theatrical version and the Paramount version. Amongst them the original ending.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: The clint on December 24, 2011, 10:11:08 AM
@ the Clint: on page 8 of that threas you find 3 YouTube links which show you the differences between the German theatrical version and the Paramount version. Amongst them the original ending.

Wow, thanks for that, seems my homework for OUATITW was somewhat lacking. I stand corrected.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: uncknown on May 03, 2012, 04:11:05 PM
in the final flashback, the song that plays on the Original Version and on the Special Edition are similar (the main theme or some variation thereof); however, on the SE it stops and re-starts in middle, which imposes a completely different meaning of that scene. Here is that link again that shows the two different versions of the final flashback http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOc13iAmXPc (the OV is first, followed by the SE).

In the OV, the song plays continuously, even as Sean passes the girl off to Nolan. IMO, this signals Sean's approval (if perhaps a bit grudging) of Nolan's love for his girl. Of course, as we see earlier, there is understandably some slight tension there, but overall they are all close friends and are relatively accepting of the love triangle. This fits well with Sean's final smile in the flashback (ie. indicating his peace with the situation), and further emphasizes what good friends they were and therefore the depth of Nolan's betrayal.

However, in the SE, the idiots at the studio stop the music after Sean finishes kissing the girl, and re-start it when Nolan begins doing the same; this would indicate that rather than one relatively harmonious love triangle, there is very significant tension between them cuz of the love triangle; therefore Sean's final smile in that flashback makes no sense

People!
The final 'flashback' is not a flashback - it is a symbolic fantasy.
The 'Colleen' symbolises Ireland and the two Seans represent a united Ireland free of strife.
Sean is imagaining what might have been, not what was
bruce

ps Morricone wrote alot of music for DYS , much of which was not used in the film. Some of the music was not written directly to picture so that Leone had some discretion in placement. "After the Explosion" is merely the title EM gave the piece he had written. Leone never used it for the end credits in any version I know of.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 03, 2012, 10:35:40 PM
People!
The final 'flashback' is not a flashback - it is a symbolic fantasy.
The 'Colleen' symbolises Ireland and the two Seans represent a united Ireland free of strife.
Sean is imagaining what might have been, not what was
bruce

ps Morricone wrote alot of music for DYS , much of which was not used in the film. Some of the music was not written directly to picture so that Leone had some discretion in placement. "After the Explosion" is merely the title EM gave the piece he had written. Leone never used it for the end credits in any version I know of.

Even if it is true that the final Ireland scene is just Sean imagining what might have been, rather than flashing back to an actual scene from his youth, that doesn't change my point about the music: the new version, in which the music stops once Sean is done with the girl, and starts up again once Nolan starts kissing her, indicates friction and a lack of harmony between the two, which is not the way that the scene is meant to be interpreted, as evidenced by that final smile. So that new music is absolutely wrong.

Most importantly of all, even setting aside the interpretation of that scene, is WHY THE FUCK WOULD THEY CHANGE LEONE'S WORK. He had made the movie with that music there at the time, and there is absolutely no reason to change it   >:(.   I have yet to see one case of a studio changing Leone's work and coming up with a better result.

(Even the one scene from a Leone movie that most Leone fans agree really is a bad scene and should be elominated -- the scene in GBU of Tuco in the cave -- was actually removed by Leone himself. According to the special features on the GBU  SE dvd), that scene only screened one time: it was at the Rome premiere, and after that premiere, Leone himself removed it before the movie's theatrical release. So even in the long European version, that scene was not in the movie; it was only restored by that *&^%$#@ from MGM for the SE  in 2003; I thankfully forgot his name. As he said on the special features, he felt he could justify putting it in there cuz it actually was shown once, even though LEONE HIMSELF REMOVED IT BEFORE WIDE RELEASE. What a cocksucker. He should have just put it into the special features).


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: uncknown on May 04, 2012, 12:46:07 AM
I am not sure which cue belongs at the end of DYS because i never saw the unedited version until the se dvd. But,  i think the best answer would come from the French version.
Leone was revered in France and I believe DYS played there UNCUT in its initial run.
After Leone's death it was re-released in DOlby Stereo. This version can be heard on the MGM special edition FRENCH audio track and is far superior to John Jerk's version.
The music used in the English se can be heard on the GDM 2 cd release - the running time matches the scene so it is possible this is the score wriitten for the scene.
who knows?
bruce

ps John Jerk is the devil! >:D


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 04, 2012, 03:04:04 AM
I am not sure which cue belongs at the end of DYS because i never saw the unedited version until the se dvd. But,  i think the best answer would come from the French version.
Leone was revered in France and I believe DYS played there UNCUT in its initial run.
After Leone's death it was re-released in DOlby Stereo. This version can be heard on the MGM special edition FRENCH audio track and is far superior to John Jerk's version.
The music used in the English se can be heard on the GDM 2 cd release - the running time matches the scene so it is possible this is the score wriitten for the scene.
who knows?
bruce

ps John Jerk is the devil! >:D

 I've never listened to any audio other than the English one that plays standard on the SE dvd. Is the music on the non-English audio tracks the same as the English one?

Yes, John Jerk is a cocksucker

---------------

Also, besides for the fact that in the SE, the song stops and then re-starts i he final flashback as previously discussed; it is a totally different song that plays! They are both some sort of variation on the main theme, but it is a FAR better song that plays in the original.

I don't know if both are from the original soundtrack composed by Morricone, or if one is spliced together from pieces of the songs, but I do know that it is a much better song that plays on the second one.

I am no good with technology, but if anyone does fan edits that can sell me one I'd be glad to pay for it a good edit of this movie. PM me  :)


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: uncknown on May 04, 2012, 11:01:51 AM
The final flashback music that plays in the sedvd is how Morricone composed and conducted it.
Since it seems to follow the aCTION , it is probably the correct music.
For me, the difference does not change the meaning of the scene at all
bruce


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: Novecento on May 05, 2012, 02:58:43 PM
The final flashback music that plays in the sedvd is how Morricone composed and conducted it.
Since it seems to follow the aCTION , it is probably the correct music.
For me, the difference does not change the meaning of the scene at all
bruce

In terms of the slight change, I agree that it does not alter much. However, D&D's point below is a very good one which I agree does significantly alter the mood:

in the final flashback, the song that plays on the Original Version and on the Special Edition are similar (the main theme or some variation thereof); however, on the SE it stops and re-starts in middle, which imposes a completely different meaning of that scene. Here is that link again that shows the two different versions of the final flashback http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOc13iAmXPc (the OV is first, followed by the SE).

In the OV, the song plays continuously, even as Sean passes the girl off to Nolan. IMO, this signals Sean's approval (if perhaps a bit grudging) of Nolan's love for his girl. Of course, as we see earlier, there is understandably some slight tension there, but overall they are all close friends and are relatively accepting of the love triangle. This fits well with Sean's final smile in the flashback (ie. indicating his peace with the situation), and further emphasizes what good friends they were and therefore the depth of Nolan's betrayal.

However, in the SE, the idiots at the studio stop the music after Sean finishes kissing the girl, and re-start it when Nolan begins doing the same; this would indicate that rather than one relatively harmonious love triangle, there is very significant tension between them cuz of the love triangle; therefore Sean's final smile in that flashback makes no sense


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 05, 2012, 07:37:01 PM
On the other hand, if uncknown is correct and the version of the music that plays on the SE is the correct one, then the studio are idiots for switching it in the original version. Whether the music is continuous; or whether stops and then starts again when Nolan takes the girl from Sean; definitely imply a different meaning on the scene.


uncknown: why do you say that the version of the music in the SE is the correct one? Is it just because that version is on the double-cd soundtrack and cuz it lasts for the same length of time as that flashback (or fantasy or whatever you wanna call it) does? If that is so, then why did the original version -- in which, so far as I can tell, that flashback/fantasy is the SAME LENGTH, put music on there that was different than what you say Leone intended?


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: uncknown on May 07, 2012, 03:13:16 PM
You are assuming that the You Tube version is the original one.
I  believe the poster simply dubbed/overlayed  the music he THOUGHT was used in the original version.
THE FINAL FLASHBACK was severely shortened by the distributors in the various countries it played. Leone complained that even in ITALY it was shortened.
Unless one saw the film when it was originally released in a country that did not shorten it, there is no way of knowing for sure.
I  am going to surmise the se is correct for the reasons stated;
1. It is the same on the French audio which is taken from a composite mix (although it is POSSIBLE Jerk played around with it, I doubt it)
2. the Morricone piece is exactly the same length and seems to match the action e.g. the way it fades out with the picture

Christopher Frayling might know - ask him! ;D
brucer


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: Novecento on May 07, 2012, 05:18:15 PM
2. the Morricone piece is exactly the same length and seems to match the action e.g. the way it fades out with the picture

The music is very different in the second version after James Coburn lets his friend kiss the girl. In the first version the same music just continues throughout until the fade.

Does the Morricone piece match the length of the first or second one?


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 07, 2012, 06:23:50 PM
the one called the "original version" is (according to the one who posted it on YouTube) the one from the UK and Italian dvd's


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 03, 2012, 04:46:10 PM
 is the dvd with the "original version" of he DYS soundtrack (ie. the UK dvd) available anywhere in America?


btw, I was reading DVD Savant's review on The Sergio Leone Anthology set, and for whatever it's worth, Glen Erickson seems to believe that the music was not fucked around with. See the DYS review on bottom of the page at this link http://www.dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/s2331leon.html



Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: uncknown on June 16, 2012, 01:22:04 PM
is the dvd with the "original version" of he DYS soundtrack (ie. the UK dvd) available anywhere in America?




no
it was released on laser previously with the shorter flashback ending


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 05, 2012, 11:19:02 PM
For some further discussion on the music in the final flashback, see http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=5936.msg157962#msg157962
To summarize very briefly what I discuss extensively in that post: Glenn Erickson points out that the music stops and starts (in the SE dvd) during that final flashback, as proof of the tension in the love triangle; but he makes no mention of the existence of different music on the old UK dvd, which is continuous throughout that flashback. But if the stop/start version of the music is correct, and there is indeed tension in the love triangle, how do you explain Coburn's smile at the end of that flashback? Erickson acknowledges that problem and just says that it is "ambiguous."


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: stanton on July 06, 2012, 03:35:04 AM
The old DVD did not had that flashback ending. It was the SE which showed this ending for the first time.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 06, 2012, 07:13:22 AM
The old DVD did not had that flashback ending. It was the SE which showed this ending for the first time.

I may have misspoke in saying "the old dvd." i mean whichever dvd has the first version posted in this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOc13iAmXPc (the description by the guy who posted it on YouTube said it's on the Italian and UK dvd's).


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: stanton on July 06, 2012, 12:45:07 PM
No ,it is only on the Italian DVD.

There are 2 DVDs with English audio .the original mono DVD which does not contain that scene, but is otherwise uncut, and the SE DVD with the re-worked 5.1 sound.

As I understand it this one contains a different score for this scene than the Italian version. Too bad, but the 2nd version on the Youtube clip is less kitschy than the ohehr one supposed to be the original one.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: The clint on July 06, 2012, 06:03:21 PM
I am not sure which cue belongs at the end of DYS because i never saw the unedited version until the se dvd. But,  i think the best answer would come from the French version.
Leone was revered in France and I believe DYS played there UNCUT in its initial run.
After Leone's death it was re-released in DOlby Stereo. This version can be heard on the MGM special edition FRENCH audio track and is far superior to John Jerk's version.

ps John Jerk is the devil! >:D

I'm afraid this is incorrect. The French language version on the SE does indeed have the correct music for the flashback in which John shoots his friend, but contains the same music for the final flashback and end credits (both incorrect cues).

The final flashback music that plays in the sedvd is how Morricone composed and conducted it.
Since it seems to follow the aCTION , it is probably the correct music.

Incorrect again! The music that plays over the final flashback on the SE is in fact a mix of TWO songs from the soundtrack: The beginning with them running in the field re-uses the opening bars of "I figli morti" (track #5, disc 1) but the song is then cross-faded to a rather echoey mix of "giu la testa" (track #13, disc 2) that had only appeared on compilation albums before the release of the SE! If this were the correct mix this would be the only time a song is cross-faded into another in a Leone film!

You are assuming that the You Tube version is the original one.
I  believe the poster simply dubbed/overlayed  the music he THOUGHT was used in the original version.
THE FINAL FLASHBACK was severely shortened by the distributors in the various countries it played. Leone complained that even in ITALY it was shortened.
Unless one saw the film when it was originally released in a country that did not shorten it, there is no way of knowing for sure.
I  am going to surmise the se is correct for the reasons stated;
1. It is the same on the French audio which is taken from a composite mix (although it is POSSIBLE Jerk played around with it, I doubt it)
2. the Morricone piece is exactly the same length and seems to match the action e.g. the way it fades out with the picture

Christopher Frayling might know - ask him! ;D
brucer

Jesus Christ, I'm beginning to think you're being payed by MGM to say these things! Firstly, it's true that many countries had a shortened version of the flashback but that doesn't really matter because in all of them you can still hear the opening bars, and guess what, they're the opening bars of track #1, disc 1 of the soundtrack. None of that should matter either because when the Italians (who definitely have more knowledge and respect for Leone's work than MGM) restored the film for DVD they used the entire track #1 for the sequence, exactly the way it's shown on the youtube video!

Secondly, track #13, disc 2 on the soundtrack (the one that's used for the SE) is not the same length as the flashback sequence. It clocks in at a mere 3:02 while the flashback itself (not counting the lead-in shot of John) is 3:25. So including the lead-in the whole track should run about 3:40 which only fits two tracks on the soundtrack, track #1, disc 1 and track #15, disc 2, which is the version that already played during the previous flashback of John murdering his friend (in the original version at least).

And no, Christopher Frayling doesn't know, he thinks the SE mix is correct for some crazy reason (at least MGM got him to acknowledge it in the commentary).


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: stanton on July 07, 2012, 01:58:06 AM
I always thought this final flashback was in no version until the reconstruction from 1996 by this Claver Salizzato guy. So the Italian DVD should contain the correct audio for the scene.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: Novecento on July 07, 2012, 05:19:26 AM
The music that plays over the final flashback on the SE is in fact a mix of TWO songs from the soundtrack: The beginning with them running in the field re-uses the opening bars of "I figli morti" (track #5, disc 1) but the song is then cross-faded to a rather echoey mix of "giu la testa" (track #13, disc 2) that had only appeared on compilation albums before the release of the SE! If this were the correct mix this would be the only time a song is cross-faded into another in a Leone film!

...None of that should matter either because when the Italians (who definitely have more knowledge and respect for Leone's work than MGM) restored the film for DVD they used the entire track #1 for the sequence, exactly the way it's shown on the youtube video!

I always thought this final flashback was in no version until the reconstruction from 1996 by this Claver Salizzato guy. So the Italian DVD should contain the correct audio for the scene.

That sounds like a convincing argument to me. Plus it's apparent just by watching and listening - the scene just plays so much better and makes so much more sense with the unbroken score.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: stanton on July 07, 2012, 05:41:51 AM
And coming back to the Italian version, the YouTube only compares the 2 English DVDs, but has anyone checked the Italian version?


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: The clint on July 07, 2012, 05:49:22 AM
And coming back to the Italian version, the YouTube only compares the 2 English DVDs, but has anyone checked the Italian version?

The youtube video compares the Italian CVC DVD to the English CE. The old English DVD has no final flashback scene. I can verify this, I have all three :)


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: stanton on July 07, 2012, 06:19:14 AM
It's too bad that we all have to deal with English versions of Italian films, and that thanks to the splitting of the world rights between Italy and the MGM respective Paramount we don't get the Italian versions.
At least the differences are not that big.

Btw the German rights for FoD and FaFDM are not by MGM, but by Paramount. They thankfully remastered the mono audio of the German versions instead of creating a fake 5.1 sound. For the English audio it contains the mono version and the 5.1 upmix.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 07, 2012, 08:11:27 PM
It's too bad that we all have to deal with English versions of Italian films, and that thanks to the splitting of the world rights between Italy and the MGM respective Paramount we don't get the Italian versions.
At least the differences are not that big.

Btw the German rights for FoD and FaFDM are not by MGM, but by Paramount. They thankfully remastered the mono audio of the German versions instead of creating a fake 5.1 sound. For the English audio it contains the mono version and the 5.1 upmix.


correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Special edition dvd's (and blu rays) of FOD and FAFDM also have the English mono?


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 07, 2012, 08:36:31 PM

And no, Christopher Frayling doesn't know, he thinks the SE mix is correct for some crazy reason (at least MGM got him to acknowledge it in the commentary).

Thanks for your last post, it seems to be very well-researched  O0


However, I believe you are mistaken about Frayling saying the SE mix is incorrect in the commentary. I just watched the commentary a couple of nights ago, I don't believe that Frayling says a word about SE audio mix being correct, nor does he even mention that there is a discrepancy between various audio versions.


There is a segment in the dvd's bonus features  called "Sorting Out the Versions" -- the credits say that the segment it is written and edited by Glenn Erickson; I am not sure if Erickson is the one who narrates it as well. In that segment -- which I analyzed extensively here http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=5936.msg157961#msg157961 -- Erickson mentions that the fact that the music stops and starts again as proof of his theory that Mallory was not happy with the love triangle; but Erickson makes no mention of the fact that the music is different in other dvd's.


But I do not believe that Frayling's commentary ever addresses the musical discrepancies between the various versions of the final flashback(except when he mentions that the cussing was initially taken out and later put back in), nor does he even address the issue of the music's stopping and starting again.



Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: Groggy on July 07, 2012, 09:55:35 PM
You could always ask Mr. Erickson.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: Novecento on July 08, 2012, 07:51:28 AM
Erickson mentions that the fact that the music stops and starts again as proof of his theory that Mallory was not happy with the love triangle; but Erickson makes no mention of the fact that the music is different in other dvd's.

I guess that's the crux of the issue; the music makes all the difference. From what I remember about Leone's comments on this, surely the unbroken music is the intended one?


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: stanton on July 08, 2012, 07:57:55 AM
Did he say anything anywhere about this scene?


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: stanton on July 08, 2012, 08:00:28 AM
I compared the scores of the pup scene on my DVD.

The German and the Spanish version are slightly different to the English and the Polish version. Only that I don't see much difference between the versions.



Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 08, 2012, 04:13:37 PM
You know the final flashback in The Godfather Part II, where the family is gathered for Vito's birthday party just after the attack on Pear Harbor: everyone is upset at Michael for enlisting in the Marines, except Fredo, who is proud of him and congratulates him. That flashback shown just after the scene where Michael has Fredo killed -- Fredo, the brother who stood by him and supported him even when the others criticized him.


I understood the final flashback of DYS to serve a similar function (perhaps among other things). When we see there how close Mallory and Nolan are: Nolan is kissing his girl, and Mallory is smiling, indicating that he is basically at peace with it, they both love the same girl but they are  happy with the situation, that's how close they are -- that serves to make Mallory's murder of Nolan even more poignant. Nolan ratted out Mallory after being tortured,  but now Mallory pulls a rifle and kills the soldiers..... so they could all be safe and free....but no, he blows away Nolan, because he won't forgive him for betraying him. Rather than understanding that his friend only betrayed him after being tortured, Mallory kills him. When we see, in the final flashback, how close Mallory and Nolan were, that they were accepting of the fact that the girl was also sleeping with the other guy, that makes Mallory's act of killing Nolan all the more egregious, and explains his motivations and what's been haunting him all these years, and his comments to Villega that he doesn't believe in anything any more, and that he only "judged" once before, etc.

So I think that the final flashback serves a similar function to the one in GFII --  indicating the close friendship, and therefore the gravity of Mallory's act of killing Nolan -- IF the music is indeed supposed to be continuous, indicating that all was harmonious.

But if the music is supposed to start and stop, and they are really unhappy with the love triangle, then what's the point iof that flashback, and Mallory's smile at the end?

----

on a separate note, I was thinking about how Frayling has spoken a lot about how the major influences on DYS were Ford's 2 Irish films, The Informer (for the betrayal)  and The Quiet Man (for the lush greenery of the Irish countryside). Well one of the themes of The Informer was forgiveness, specifically Catholic-themed forgiveness,  as Victor McLagelen -- whose character's last name is Nolan -- seeks and is ultimately granted forgiveness by the mother of his friend that he'd betrayed, just before McLaglen dies, in a church.

We can also say that Mallory's sin was "judging," ie. refusing to forgive, his own friend who had betrayed him, which in turn led to Mallory's being miserable for all these years. In the end, he achieves his redemption when he refuses to judge Villega after the latter's betrayals, even encouraging him to jump off the train. He uses the phrase "for Christs's sake, save yourself!" which may well be a double meaning, to be taken literally in a Catholic sense. Furthermore, at the end, he returns Juan's crucifix to him, perhaps indicating the repentance and redemption of both of them. So at the end, both Catholic characters in DYS achieve redemption just as McLaglen's did in The Informer.




Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: dave jenkins on July 08, 2012, 04:46:04 PM
The music that plays over the final flashback on the SE is in fact a mix of TWO songs from the soundtrack: The beginning with them running in the field re-uses the opening bars of "I figli morti" (track #5, disc 1) but the song is then cross-faded to a rather echoey mix of "giu la testa" (track #13, disc 2) that had only appeared on compilation albums before the release of the SE! If this were the correct mix this would be the only time a song is cross-faded into another in a Leone film!
Persuasive! O0 O0 O0


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: dave jenkins on July 08, 2012, 05:14:01 PM
When we see there how close Mallory and Nolan are: Nolan is kissing his girl, and Mallory is smiling, indicating that he is basically at peace with it, they both love the same girl but they are  happy with the situation, that's how close they are -- that serves to make Mallory's murder of Nolan even more poignant. Nolan ratted out Mallory after being tortured,  but now Mallory pulls a rifle and kills the soldiers..... so they could all be safe and free....but no, he blows away Nolan, because he won't forgive him for betraying him. Rather than understanding that his friend only betrayed him after being tortured, Mallory kills him.
The scene may be even more nuanced than that. Note that Nolan doesn't try to get away or even flinch when Mallory takes a bead on him. In fact, there is a moment when the two men seem to exchange a look, as if a kind of silent communication is going on between them. Nolan of course feels bad that he has betrayed his friend and the cause. People sometimes think they can withstand torture if they are committed enough, but, as Viellga points out, everyone has their breaking point. But after being broken one's sense of guilt must be devastating. We have seen that Nolan was a firebrand for the rebellion--he was passing out leaflets in the pub earlier--so his sense of guilt must have been acute, and, psychologically speaking, he may have felt he deserved to be severely punished. I've always interpreted the look Nolan gives Mallory to be a request for execution.

The fact that Mallory acceded to the request in no way lets Mallory off the hook. In later years, Mallory realizes he should not have killed his friend, even though his friend may have asked for it. Later, in what is essentially a do-over, when he has the opportunity to "judge" Viellga, Mallory recuses himself, allowing Viellga to pass sentence on himself. This is grace for Viellga, and, apparently, for Mallory as well.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: The clint on July 08, 2012, 05:32:32 PM
However, I believe you are mistaken about Frayling saying the SE mix is incorrect in the commentary. I just watched the commentary a couple of nights ago, I don't believe that Frayling says a word about SE audio mix being correct, nor does he even mention that there is a discrepancy between various audio versions.

- - -

But I do not believe that Frayling's commentary ever addresses the musical discrepancies between the various versions of the final flashback(except when he mentions that the cussing was initially taken out and later put back in), nor does he even address the issue of the music's stopping and starting again.



While you're right about Frayling never saying anything about there being more than one sound mix for the flashback scene, one thing he said makes it seem that he thinks this is the way the soundtrack is supposed to be:

Quote
...and the Sean theme by Morricone is about to go down to make way for another theme for the final part of the flashback.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: dave jenkins on July 08, 2012, 05:45:25 PM
Looking at (and listening to) to two clips again, I notice that what we're calling the OV has gunfire on the soundtrack that begins before the flashback and continues to be heard during the beginning of the flashback until it fades out. Then, at the end of the flashback, the gunfire returns, fading up on the soundtrack and continuing as the action flash-forwards back to the present. This doesn't happen on the SE soundtrack: the sounds of gunfire do not intrude onto either portions of the flashback. It's as if the music was plopped down onto the soundtrack without any thought given to sound effects.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 08, 2012, 08:06:25 PM
Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the detective work here!

 Here are a few suggestions I have for how we may continue:


I'm wondering if anyone here has contact info with anyone who may be "in the know" on these matters:

Maybe some of you guys who work for Cinema Retro, didn't they once interview Giancarlo Santi (who was originally supposed to direct this movie)? Or if does anyone have contact info for Frayling?


If Glenn Erickson's contact info is available, maybe someone should just contact him? (I don't agree with all of his opinions on this movie as I've detailed extendively here http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=5936.msg157961#msg157961 but as a last resort) perhaps you should email him that YouTube clip with the comparisons, and this discussion thread, and see if he is even aware of any other versions? I can see how Erickson would use the music to interpret the scene if they were unaware of any other versions of the music; but maybe he'd reconsider if he was aware of a different version of the music? Even if he doesn't know, maybe he'll have contact info for some studio exec or critic who knows this stuff?

I have email addresses  for the Leone children, a movie critic who gave them to me said they are publicly-listed addresses for Andrea Leone Productions.) (They never responded to the one question I emailed them about OUATIA; I don't know if they never respond to that email address, or if maybe they just didn't answer mine cuz they were busy right before Cannes, or maybe cuz I wrote it in English and not Italian, Who knows. But if someone is interested in emailing them in Italian and asking them this question about the DYS music, send me a PM and I will give you their addresses; it's a very long shot that they'll respond but I guess that when you're doing detective work, it's like playing the lottery:, you gotta take whatever chances you can, and hope that at least one ends up being successful?


As I understand it, this movie was released in its full length in Italy, but other than that Italian release, it was never released in its full length until the various special edition restorations were released in the early 2000's. Is that correct? If so, we can probably assume that that original-release Italian print has the correct music. Is that version available anywhere? is there an Italian dvd that has the full flashback? If do, can we assume that that dvd is the original print?






Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: The clint on July 09, 2012, 08:15:08 AM
As I understand it, this movie was released in its full length in Italy, but other than that Italian release, it was never released in its full length until the various special edition restorations were released in the early 2000's. Is that correct? If so, we can probably assume that that original-release Italian print has the correct music. Is that version available anywhere? is there an Italian dvd that has the full flashback? If do, can we assume that that dvd is the original print?


Information about whether or not the Italian release contained the full flashback scene seems a little sketchy: Some sources claim it did, others claim that it didn't, and some claim it was part of the premiere version and then subsequently removed, I really have no idea which one is true. What I do know is that at least the last two DVD editions (from CVC and Mondo) released in Italy (not sure if there were any released before these) do contain the final flashback and I think it's reasonable to assume that they contain the original soundtrack.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: Novecento on July 09, 2012, 08:56:58 AM
Did he say anything anywhere about this scene?

See Leone's quote on p.330 of Frayling and the references there (one being Simsolo's interviews):

"This wasn't just libertarianism and free love; there was also a symbolic dimension. The woman represented the revolution everyone wanted to embrace"

Basically, by changing the music, they have really messed up the point of the scene! What a huge error! Quite possibly even bigger than screwing up the closing music of OUATITW.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 09, 2012, 11:27:24 AM
Information about whether or not the Italian release contained the full flashback scene seems a little sketchy: Some sources claim it did, others claim that it didn't, and some claim it was part of the premiere version and then subsequently removed, I really have no idea which one is true. What I do know is that at least the last two DVD editions (from CVC and Mondo) released in Italy (not sure if there were any released before these) do contain the final flashback and I think it's reasonable to assume that they contain the original soundtrack.

-- According to the bonus features on the SE (I forgot if it was John Jerk's piece or Glenn Erickson's piece) the only version that played the full movie, including the full final flashback (before it was restored for the SE in recent years), was the Italian premiere.


-- Which music plays on the Mondo and CVC versions?


-- the SE has some other audio discrepancies, which are included in the clips I linked to in the first post in this thread. Maybe if we can know for certain which is the correct version of the audio in the other video clips, we can assume that the same version gets it correct in the final flashback's audio as well.

-- Finally, since UNCKNOWN was the one who said that the SE's audio is correct, I'd like to hear if he has a response to THE CLINT's arguments. We really need to get to the bottom of this.
 
Does anyone have Erickson's email address? Or is anyone on DVD Beaver's listserve? I don't think Beaver is an expert on the various audio versions, but ome of the members of his listserve definitely are.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: Groggy on July 09, 2012, 11:31:33 AM
I've already contacted Mr. Erickson regarding your query. Would you like me to pass along your nickname as well?


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: Groggy on July 09, 2012, 05:38:28 PM
Received a nice reply from Mr. Erickson. I'll reproduce the relevant sections.

Quote
Hi [Groggy]...

I have an Italian copy of the movie and should get it out to hear what happens to the music in the final flashback -- but I'm working long hours at the moment and having trouble getting my reviews out.

I've seen convincing evidence that shows that the sound company hired by MGM laid down the music tracks differently than they were on the Italian original. The engineers may have gotten 'creative' to solve problems of missing material or they may have been supplied with a master with altered tracks.

[...]

Deciding what a correct version is, is difficult. The SE is not Leone's export version. I'm told that that copy had a lot more profanity that's been relooped. Leone himself chopped the film down several times, at one point settling on a finish with NO flashback at all. Leone did it, so some people would say that the flashback does not belong at all.

[...]

If I get a chance I'll put up the old Italian copy ... I have to find it first.

Thanks,
Glenn

Hopefully he'll be able to follow-up soon. I excised some more general comments on the film to keep from drifting off-topic.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: cigar joe on July 09, 2012, 05:45:36 PM
great O0


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 09, 2012, 06:03:15 PM
I've already contacted Mr. Erickson regarding your query. Would you like me to pass along your nickname as well?

Thanks for contacting him about that issue. (And yes, you can feel free to pass along my nicknameS -- but include my other query about Leone's supposed habit of appropriating successful movies by other directors!)

Did it seem that Erickson was aware about the discrepancy in the final flashback music, or was your email the first he'd heard of it? The fact that he mentions the stop-start music as proof of tension between Mallory and Nolan -- while making no mention of the existence of the other version of the music, even though his piece was about "sorting out the versions," -- led me to believe that he was unaware of the existence of the other version, but I'd be interested to know for sure.

Anyway, I can't wait to hear what he says about the final music, and its implication, not least because Erickson has an entire theory about the movie, discussed in that "Sorting Out the Versions" piece, much of which would fall apart if it turns out that he had the wrong music all along.

And most importantly, alerting him to this issue (if he was unaware of it until now) would be very important because if he was involved with the SE of DYS, I guess there is a reasonable chance that he will be involved with any future restorations/releases, including a blu ray. So hopefully the blu ray (or a future dvd restoration) will finally get the audio right. No matter what the correct version of the final flashback music is, so much of the rest of the audio of that dvd is screwed up [I recall Beaver saying something like it's the worst audio he's ever come across], and I'd hope that someone who would be involved in future restorations would be aware of all this so that we will finally one day get a proper version of this movie, with all the scenes and the proper audio.

So thanks for contacting him; I can't wait to find out the outcome of all this!




Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: The clint on July 09, 2012, 07:22:38 PM
-- Which music plays on the Mondo and CVC versions?

-- the SE has some other audio discrepancies, which are included in the clips I linked to in the first post in this thread. Maybe if we can know for certain which is the correct version of the audio in the other video clips, we can assume that the same version gets it correct in the final flashback's audio as well.

The first version in the youtube video is from the CVC/Mondo version, the second is from the MGM SE. The other video containing various minor (but still important!) audio discrepancies features the 2003 MGM DVD's mono track played first, and then the erroneous SE track (that censors or alters some dialogue, and makes changes to small music cues throughout). The 2003 DVD's mono track agrees, in all instances, with the CVC/Mondo DVDs and I assume it's the most faithful English language version that's available, albeit sounding rather muffled.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: Groggy on July 09, 2012, 07:49:44 PM
Erickson did take issue with your assertion that a revolutionary wouldn't betray another revolutionary. His theory, or belief in it anyway, is not contingent upon the music cue. He made a comment about problems with restoring Techniscope but nothing about sound quality.

Anyway, I'll be sure to pass along any further communications. His e-mail address is listed on his homepage so feel free to contact him yourself! O0


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 09, 2012, 09:29:12 PM
Erickson did take issue with your assertion that a revolutionary wouldn't betray another revolutionary. His theory, or belief in it anyway, is not contingent upon the music cue. He made a comment about problems with restoring Techniscope but nothing about sound quality.

Anyway, I'll be sure to pass along any further communications. His e-mail address is listed on his homepage so feel free to contact him yourself! O0

The reason I think that Mallory wouldn't betray Nolan is not because of dedication to the revolution; personal reasons can always get in the way of any "greater good." Rather, it's for pragmatic reasons: Mallory is a revolutionary himself!! I mean, can you imagine eg. a thief ratting out his partner to the cops? Wtf would he expect his partner to do, other than telling those same cops, "well that guy who just ratted me out, he is a revolutionary too!" Mallory ratting out Nolan is just the silliest thing I ever heard of! So what happens, Mallory rats out Nolan as being a revolutionary, and then Nolan in turn says "you know Mallory is a revolutionary too!" And then the soldiers come to the pub, and ask Nolan, "Is it him?" Wtf is that all about? If Mallory had just ratted out Nolan (after which Nolan was tortured), wtf do the soldiers mean when they ask Nolan, about Mallory, "is it him?" they should already be familiar with Mallory for having ratted Nolan out in the first place!

No, it's very obvious that what had happened was that there had been some attack, probably an explosion with dynamite, and the soldiers  knew that Nolan was aware of the identity of the perpetrator, so they tortured Nolan into revealing his identity: "is it him?" ie. "was it Mallory who committed the attack?"

Yes, there is a lot of issues regarding plot/motivations in DYS that reasonable people can disagree over (especially until we know the correct musical cue for the final flashback!) But IMO this assertion that Mallory is the one who initially ratted out Nolan is just not believable on any level. I would love to hear how Erickson explains the question, "is it him?" asked by the soldiers, if they should already be familiar with him for having delivered Nolan into their hands in the first place.

-----

And finally, as discussed previously, Erickson admits that according to his theory, Mallory's final smile is ambiguous. Well, if the Original Version's music is correct, wouldn't that explain all, including the final smile ?, ie. Mallory was at peace with the love triangle, as shown with the continuous music and his final smile, thus displaying the closeness of their friendship, and therefore how terrible Nolan's betrayal was, and/or how terrible Mallory's act of vengeance was. (Furthermore, Mallory being at peace with Nolan and the love triangle is more consistent with saying that Mallory's dreams of Ireland are a fantasy about the good old days, rather than if there was really tension all along between Mallory and Nolan).
Either way, whether Erickson is correct or I am, we all agree that there is some act of betrayal/vengeance that is haunting Mallory, and for which he atones for at the end by refusing to "judge" Dr. Villega. But the question is whether it is that evil act that is haiunting Mallory was the act of shooting his close friend who had been tortured; or whether it was the act of of initially ratting out Nolan to the police, which IMO raises all these questions/ambiguities that i've detailed.


[p.s. the reason I use the last names, Mallory and Nolan ,to refer to the characters is to avoid the whole issue of Sean vs. John; Erickson is convinced that Mallory is John and Nolan is Sean, so I figure that using last names avoids that whole issue  ;)]



Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: stanton on July 10, 2012, 02:24:13 AM
Isn't there really any Leone statement about this whole John/ Sean thing?

It is very irritating. In the End everybody assumed that John is Sean, and there must be interview parts about this.

That Mallory cheated on Nolan first is too far fetched for me, but even that Sean is not John and in fact Nolan is Sean is for me a bit too vague. Not really grounded in the film's structure, even if it is a pretty interesting interpretation.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 10, 2012, 06:15:14 AM
btw I just noticed that this Finnur guy who posted these youtube clips is a) the same Beaver follower who posted the negative review about the audio on Beaver's page; and B) specifically bashed DVD Savant in the description of the video on his youtube page... I totally did not realize that during all this time that we've been mentioning Erickson  ;D


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: Groggy on July 10, 2012, 09:13:08 AM
Personally, I never saw that much significance (plot-wise anyway) in the final flashback. John was just reminiscing of a happier moment at the point of dying. He has fond memories of Nolan and the girl, why wouldn't he remember them both? There could be deeper significance to it, but I don't think there need be.

The problem with Erickson's theory is that there's nothing to directly support it. You can read miles into a facial gesture or close-up (just look at the arguments over OUATIA's ending) so I wouldn't claim it's completely invalid. The flashbacks are too elliptical to prove anything definitely, however, beyond Nolan betraying John for one reason or another. Guilt certainly isn't contingent upon betrayal: he killed his best friend. Call me square but I'll stick with a straight interpretation of this sequence.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: Groggy on July 10, 2012, 09:25:45 AM
Isn't there really any Leone statement about this whole John/ Sean thing?

It is very irritating. In the End everybody assumed that John is Sean, and there must be interview parts about this.

Pardon my ignorance/bad memory but where did the name Nolan originate from? Was it in a screenplay or just something Frayling picked up? He doesn't always cite his sources.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: stanton on July 10, 2012, 12:09:22 PM
Don't remember either. He was called so in this thread. He isn't named in the film, and the credits don't mention him.

Books call him only "John's friend in the flashback" (probably not his name ;) )


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 10, 2012, 01:44:24 PM
 the name Nolan comes from the script. I was unaware of the fact that (according to Erickson), the full name in the script is "Sean Nolan."

Frayling said that the two major influences on DYS were The Informer (for the betrayals) and The Quiet Man (for the lush greenery of Ireland); he says that Leone screened The Informer repeatedly, I think on a moviola, while making DYS. I believe it was also Frayling who pointed out the reference to the Victor McLaglen character in The Informer who is named "Guippo Nolan"


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: dave jenkins on July 10, 2012, 03:00:59 PM
the name Nolan comes from the script. I was unaware of the fact that (according to Erickson), the full name in the script is "Sean Nolan."
I don't believe this is correct. Although I've never seen the script, my understanding is that Mallory's friend is called only "Nolan". No first name is given.

Nonetheless, for those of you who remember my My Three Seans theory, Nolan could have been called Sean. But, common name that it is, why couldn't Mallory also have been Sean? In fact, even if he were christened John, isn't it likely that a patriot to the Irish cause would have Gaelicized his name? There's nothing to prevent Mallory and Nolan from both having the same first name, and it wouldn't be that much of a coincidence.

As we have discussed at length elsewhere, John and Sean are different forms of the same name. When Juan finds out that Mallory is going by John, he recognizes the Anglicized form of his name and immediately feels kinship with the man. Juan is also the third Sean. When Carla Leone's lyric is intoned on the soundtrack, a Trinity of Friendship is being invoked.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 10, 2012, 03:46:12 PM
I don't believe this is correct. Although I've never seen the script, my understanding is that Mallory's friend is called only "Nolan". No first name is given.

Nonetheless, for those of you who remember my My Three Seans theory, Nolan could have been called Sean. But, common name that it is, why couldn't Mallory also have been Sean? In fact, even if he were christened John, isn't it likely that a patriot to the Irish cause would have Gaelicized his name? There's nothing to prevent Mallory and Nolan from both having the same first name, and it wouldn't be that much of a coincidence.

As we have discussed at length elsewhere, John and Sean are different forms of the same name. When Juan finds out that Mallory is going by John, he recognizes the Anglicized form of his name and immediately feels kinship with the man. Juan is also the third Sean. When Carla Leone's lyric is intoned on the soundtrack, a Trinity of Friendship is being invoked.

I never saw the script; the part about Nolan's first name being Sean comes from Erickson's "Sorting Out the Versions" piece on the bonus features of the dvd. I disagree with so much of what Erickson says in that piece, it wouldn't surprise me if the part about Nolan's first name being Sean is bullshit too! (I discussed Erickson's theories about Sean/John extensively here http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=5936.msg157961#msg157961 )

btw, the one point Erickson makes which I initially thought was a good point, is that since Irishman newspaper calls him "John Mallory" that is proof that his name is not really Sean; if his Irish name was Sean, wouldn't the Irish newspaper use that name? 

Well, now I've finally realized that Erickson is probably wrong about that point as well: the newspaper (called the New Irishman or something like that) is obviously not a newspaper that is sympathetic to the revolution, because it prints the WANTED ad for Mallory! No newspaper that is sympathetic to the revolution would print a WANTED ad for a revolutionary! So even though the word Irishman is in the newspaper, it's obvious that this paper is sympathetic to the British cause, and not to the revolutionary cause! Therefore, it is no wonder that the paper uses the name John and not Sean; as has been discussed elsewhere (eg. http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=1271.msg80155#msg80155 ) Sean is the name that only those who were sympathetic to Irish independence would have used.

 So the fact the newspaper uses the name John does not necessarily prove that Mallory's Irish name is not Sean.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: Novecento on July 10, 2012, 05:16:43 PM

Received a nice reply from Mr. Erickson. I'll reproduce the relevant sections.

Quote
...I'm told that that copy had a lot more profanity that's been relooped...


That's in the youtube comparison as well. Why on earth would they censor the dialogue on a DVD purchased for home use?

The problem with Erickson's theory is that there's nothing to directly support it. You can read miles into a facial gesture or close-up (just look at the arguments over OUATIA's ending) so I wouldn't claim it's completely invalid. The flashbacks are too elliptical to prove anything definitely, however, beyond Nolan betraying John for one reason or another. Guilt certainly isn't contingent upon betrayal: he killed his best friend. Call me square but I'll stick with a straight interpretation of this sequence.

That's the very problem. From Leone's comments it doesn't seem there was any intention to show tension between them. Unfortunately that is a very possible interpretation with this modified soundtrack.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 10, 2012, 07:31:02 PM
RE: the discussion of similarities between the final flashback music and the music that plays in the pub when Mallory kills Nolan: remember also that the music that plays during that pub scene was also changed! It's the second of the 3 links I provided in the first post in this thread; here it is again http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg_hPzmZYC4  (I believe that the first version is the OV, and the second version the SE, right?) In that (infamous?) Erickson piece "Sorting out the Versions, where this music is references, he also makes no mention of this music being switched.

---
I sure hope that at some point in the not too distant future, we get a definitive restoration of this movie with all the scenes and the correct music. For everyone who didn't live in Italy during the movie's original theatrical release (ie. more 95% of Leone fans alive today)  it would be the first time they've seen the movie exactly as it was intended


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: stanton on July 11, 2012, 02:38:11 AM
Again my question for the pup scene. Where's the big difference between the 2 versions?

For the final flashback it is of course a difference.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: The clint on July 11, 2012, 01:24:52 PM
Again my question for the pup scene. Where's the big difference between the 2 versions?

For the final flashback it is of course a difference.

The original music (Italian DVDs, 2003 MGM DVD) that plays over the slow motion pub scene in which John kills both soldiers and then his friend is track 15, disc 2 on the expanded soundtrack. The SE features a very makeshift edit of two takes (again!) starting with a few seconds of track 1, disc 1 and then using the second gunshot to cover up a splice to track 13, disc 2 (the same track that was later re-used for the SE flashback scene and then yet AGAIN over the closing credits. No version of the film featured this track anywhere before the SE).


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: uncknown on November 17, 2012, 02:54:58 PM
who is this "the clint" guy?
 ???


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: The clint on November 29, 2012, 03:37:10 PM
Was that a rhetorical question?


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: noodles_leone on November 30, 2012, 10:55:50 AM
WHo's this Uncknown guy?


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: uncknown on November 30, 2012, 02:45:22 PM
del


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: uncknown on November 30, 2012, 02:55:23 PM
WHo's this Uncknown guy?

An authority. What Mike Siegel is to Peckingpah, I am to Leone/Morricone.
I do not claim to being immune from mistakes, but I know of what I speak.

Now, one last comment on DYS - the pub scene:

The music as it appears in the se dvd is correct. I saw DYS when it first came out in 1971. Numerous times (for the music).
The French version has different music, which appears to be incorrect. As previously mentioned, DYS was re-issued in Dolby Sterro in France in the 1980's. This necessitated re-mixing the score. Apparently, they used an incorrect cue for the scene where Sean shoots John. It's a jaunty take, totally inappropriate for such a dramatic scene (perhaps this take was meant for the first flashback?)

Stop fussing and enjoy this amazing score and film! :)
bruce marshall


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: The clint on December 01, 2012, 04:31:27 AM
Now, one last comment on DYS - the pub scene:

The music as it appears in the se dvd is correct. I saw DYS when it first came out in 1971. Numerous times (for the music).
The French version has different music, which appears to be incorrect. As previously mentioned, DYS was re-issued in Dolby Sterro in France in the 1980's. This necessitated re-mixing the score. Apparently, they used an incorrect cue for the scene where Sean shoots John. It's a jaunty take, totally inappropriate for such a dramatic scene (perhaps this take was meant for the first flashback?)

Which pub scene are you talking about? The former or latter? If you're talking about the former, you'd be right. If you're talking about the latter, you're oh so wrong! I've seen the film numerous times in various incarnations on VHS, Laserdisc and DVD in English, French, German and Italian and they all contain the same take (track 15 on disc 2 of the expanded soundtrack) of the track which incidentally, only exists in mono or faked stereo! The SE version, as I stated earlier, has the beginning of track 1 on disc 1 badly spliced to track 13 on disc 2 which is something that would never have been done during scoring sessions and is obviously just a cheap fix.

I suspect it's because the best quality English language track John Kirk & Co. had access to was the edited 137 minute US release (all the restored bits of dialogue sound horrible on the SE, even inferior to the 2003 PAL DVD) which removed the long shot of David Warbeck nodding to John and thus had to resort to a similarly cheap edit. The French language version on the SE does have the original track, but that's because the French release of the film wasn't edited down, unlike the English version, and there was no need for the splice. The audio quality of the French version of the scene is indeed horrible as per the master they had access to, but at least it's the original track.

The only logical reason I can think of for why they didn't just use the already available complete stereo masters for Ennio Morricone's score for the film is that they would have to pay licensing fees to the Italian company that holds the rights for them, which they obviously opted not to do, cheap bastards!


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: Novecento on December 01, 2012, 07:45:45 AM
The French language version on the SE does have the original track, but that's because the French release of the film wasn't edited down, unlike the English version, and there was no need for the splice. The audio quality of the French version of the scene is indeed horrible as per the master they had access to, but at least it's the original track.

Does that only refer to the French R2 release of DYS? I know my R1 DVD of DYS has French as an audio option on it. Hmm I might try testing that out this weekend if I get the chance.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: noodles_leone on December 01, 2012, 07:51:32 AM
An authority. What Mike Siegel is to Peckingpah, I am to Leone/Morricone.
I do not claim to being immune from mistakes, but I know of what I speak.

Dude, that was a rhetorical question.


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: uncknown on December 01, 2012, 02:23:28 PM
i dislike rhetoric 8)

Splice marks heard on the soundtrack are sometimes a result of scenes being cut for different territories.
The pub scene where Sean kills John, was edited in the English language version for violence -one shot instead of two.

btw ALL the music on ALL the "Dolby Surround/Dolby Digital 5.1"versions is fake stereo.
some of the score is so drenched in reverb and echo as to make it almost unlistenable.
The French version has the best stereo mix but the overall best/most authentic version is the English mono (if you speak English).
I switch to the English stereo version for the 'final flashback' which is in true stereo - no doubt because it never existed before the dvd restoration so they could start from scratch.

if anyone wants to discuss this with me i would be more than happy
just p.m. me

and don't forget to
DUCK YOU SUCKER!
 :)

bruce


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 01, 2012, 05:08:55 PM
@ the clint and uncknown

can each of you summarize your views on which is the correct music for the final flashback scene? I know it was discussed earlier, but, rather than wading through all those extensive posts on the first 7 pages, I am wondering if the two of you -- and anyone else that has a firm opinion -- can provide your opinion on the correct music for the final flashback scene?

Thanks  O0


Title: Re: "Duck, You Sucker" soundtrack comparison
Post by: The clint on December 02, 2012, 07:04:36 AM
Splice marks heard on the soundtrack are sometimes a result of scenes being cut for different territories.
The pub scene where Sean kills John, was edited in the English language version for violence -one shot instead of two.

Apart from the mention of the cut for violence, in which case you're correct, I said the same thing here:

I suspect it's because the best quality English language track John Kirk & Co. had access to was the edited 137 minute US release ... which removed the long shot of David Warbeck nodding to John and thus had to resort to a similarly cheap edit. The French language version on the SE does have the original track, but that's because the French release of the film wasn't edited down, unlike the English version, and there was no need for the splice. The audio quality of the French version of the scene is indeed horrible as per the master they had access to, but at least it's the original track.

I'd also like to mention that the aforementioned French track on the SE corresponds (in this scene) to all Italian versions I've seen, the 1996 Laserdisc, the full English language track on the 2003 DVD, the German and French soundtracks on the same DVD and even the horribly edited Spanish DVD! The odd ones out are the SE and 137 minute bastardized US release, neither of which are reliable sources. The SE even makes the mistake of removing the sound effect of John cocking his rifle, it was probably just forgotten because they'd already wiped the original track in place of the new, edited music!

I also mentioned that the SE was badly spliced, but I just popped in the SE and that isn't really correct: The tracks are crossfaded together but I stand by everything else I said.

btw ALL the music on ALL the "Dolby Surround/Dolby Digital 5.1"versions is fake stereo.

This is simply incorrect. Yes, the track they use no less than three times in the film (final two flashbacks, end credits) appears to be in fake stereo, but the other bits that were culled together from the rest of the soundtrack (apparently just for the final two flashbacks) are in real stereo, just listen to the sean, sean's during the opening bars of the two last flashbacks before they switch to the other track and you'll hear what I mean.

I switch to the English stereo version for the 'final flashback' which is in true stereo - no doubt because it never existed before the dvd restoration so they could start from scratch.

Wrong again, it's been intact for years in the Italian cut, and even though previous versions included only half a minute of it or didn't include it at all, all these versions (apart from the German cut which contains no music at all at this point) start to play the same music (track 1 on disc 1) over the image of John smoking and then smiling, and then either cutting to a short piece of the flashback or letting the song play out over the subsequent explosion and end credits. There was never any debate about which music was supposed to be there before the John Kirk restoration.

can each of you summarize your views on which is the correct music for the final flashback scene? I know it was discussed earlier, but, rather than wading through all those extensive posts on the first 7 pages, I am wondering if the two of you -- and anyone else that has a firm opinion -- can provide your opinion on the correct music for the final flashback scene?

There's no doubt in my mind that the correct music for the final flashback is the unedited Gił la testa theme (track 1) from the soundtrack. I refer you to the arguments I presented here above in response to uncknown.


Title: Re: DYS soundtrack comparison
Post by: hanshotfirst1138 on December 07, 2014, 03:29:04 PM
Hopefully, the dead horse I'm flogging doesn't smell too bad at this point, but from what I understand, the old SE DVD had a downmix. Does the Italian Blu have the proper track? How about the new U.S. Blu? I know I should read the thread, I'm just too lazy to comb through it ;).


Title: Re: DYS soundtrack comparison
Post by: The clint on December 08, 2015, 02:01:49 AM
The US BD does not have the original mono, nor does it have a downmix of the surround track. Technically, the Italian BD, for the most part, has the original mix (Juan's line "What About Me?" as well as his yell before the explosion come from the Italian track, though. It switches right before the flashback but contains all the correct music, thankfully). There are, however, some issues with the clarity and sync of the track. That, coupled with the washed out image quality (still better than the MGM, IMO, but not by much) and showing too much image info on all sides makes this release a bittersweet compensation for what MGM have given us.

I really wish some company like Criterion or Arrow would get their hands on these movies and release them properly, because while they're in the hands of these hacks, it seems we'll only get deeply faulty releases.