Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => Once Upon A Time In The West => Topic started by: Walton on March 21, 2011, 04:54:36 PM



Title: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Walton on March 21, 2011, 04:54:36 PM
DVD Savant (at dvdtalk.com) mentioned that Paramount will release a blu ray of Once Upon a Time in the West on May 31st. 


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: LITTLE BIG MAN on March 21, 2011, 05:08:21 PM
OUATITW Blu - ray May 31st 2011
From Digital Bits

Paramount Home Entertainment has just announced ANOTHER of our favorite films here at The Digital Bits for Blu-ray release: Sergio Leone's legendary western Once Upon a Time in the West will officially arrive on Blu-ray Disc on May 31st! No, I'm NOT kidding! SRP is just $19.99! The set will include BOTH the theatrical cut and the extended version of the film, English 5.1 DTS HD-MA audio (along with restored English Mono, and French and Spanish mono), and all the extras from the previous DVD release, including audio commentary (with contributions by directors John Carpenter, John Milius and Alex Cox, film historians Sir Christopher Frayling and Dr. Sheldon Hall, cast and crew), 5 featurettes (An Opera of Violence, The Wages of Sin, Something to Do with Death, Railroad: Revolutionizing the West and Locations Then & Now), a production photo gallery and the film's theatrical trailer (we suspect in HD).

Press Release
Arriving May 31, 2011, Blu-ray Includes Both a Fully Restored Version and the Original Theatrical Version Along with Over an Hour of Illuminating Special Features

HOLLYWOOD, CALIF. – A motion picture as big as its Monument Valley locations, director Sergio Leone’s glorious and acclaimed Western ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST makes its Blu-ray debut on May 31, 2011 from Paramount Home Entertainment.  Henry Fonda plays the blackest character of his long career, and he’s utterly convincing as Frank, the ruthless and murderous psychopath who suffers no conscience pangs after annihilating an entire family at the bidding of a powerful railroad tycoon. Jason Robards is the half-breed falsely accused of the terrible slaughter who embarks on a journey with the young widow left behind to seek the real killer.  Charles Bronson plays a mysterious man with a harmonica and a brutal past who joins forces with them on their quest.  Populated by rich and fascinating characters and driven by an intricately woven plot, ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST is a classic that deserves to be savored and appreciated in high definition.
The ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST Blu-ray includes both the fully restored version of the film and the original theatrical version, as well as commentary featuring film historians, directors and members of the cast and crew, multiple in-depth featurettes exploring various aspects of the film and the filmmaking process, a production gallery and more.

ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST Blu-ray
The ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST Blu-ray is presented in 1080p high definition with English 5.1 DTS-HD Master Audio, English Restored Mono Dolby Digital, French Mono Dolby Digital and Spanish Mono Dolby Digital with English, English SDH, French, Spanish and Portuguese subtitles.  Disc contents are as follows:

•Feature Film: Restored Version
•Feature Film: Theatrical Version
•Commentary with contributions by directors John Carpenter, John Milius and Alex Cox, film historians Sir Christopher Frayling and Dr. Sheldon Hall, cast and crew
•An Opera of Violence
•The Wages of Sin
•Something to do with Death
•Railroad: Revolutionizing the West
•Locations Then & Now
•Production Gallery
•Theatrical Trailer
About Paramount Home Entertainment
Paramount Home Entertainment (PHE) is part of Paramount Pictures Corporation (PPC), a global producer and distributor of filmed entertainment.  PPC is a unit of Viacom (NYSE: VIA, VIA.B), a leading content company with prominent and respected film, television and digital entertainment brands.  PHE is responsible for the sales, marketing and distribution of home entertainment products on behalf of various parties including: Paramount Pictures, Paramount Vantage, Paramount Classics, Insurge Pictures, Paramount Famous Productions, Nickelodeon, MTV, Comedy Central, CBS and PBS and for providing home entertainment fulfillment services for DreamWorks Animation Home Entertainment.




Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on March 22, 2011, 07:40:54 AM
Quote
"the fully restored version of the film and the original theatrical version."
Why the original version--for historical interest? And I'm guessing that "fully restored version" is code for "not the Scorsese-restored version."


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: moviesceleton on March 22, 2011, 07:51:54 AM
And I'm guessing that "fully restored version" is code for "not the Scorsese-restored version."
That's a funny thing... Is the Scorsese restoration available on any kind of disc currently?


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on March 22, 2011, 11:38:00 AM
The Scorsese restoration hasn't been available on home video yet...the difference between the two versions on the new blu-ray is apparently 39 seconds (according to their press release specs)....I wonder if it's the "resurrection" scene of Harmonica rising from the platform or something else?


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: T.H. on March 22, 2011, 11:41:37 AM
A lot sooner than I imagined.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Cusser on March 22, 2011, 02:20:09 PM
The "resurrection" scene of Harmonica rising from the platform was in the restored version I saw in a theater in 1985, and on DVD. 


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Novecento on March 22, 2011, 03:09:33 PM
A lot sooner than I imagined.

After the French release was mentioned a few weeks back, it was bound to happen soon.

Why the original version--for historical interest?

I don't see why anyone would be interested in the original US theatrical release either. I'm quite sure Leone wouldn't approve of this inclusion!


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Novecento on March 22, 2011, 05:12:46 PM
The "resurrection" scene of Harmonica rising from the platform was in the restored version I saw in a theater in 1985, and on DVD.  

And I'm guessing that "fully restored version" is code for "not the Scorsese-restored version."

Interestingly the Paramount press release here (http://www.hometheaterforum.com/forum/thread/309878/phe-press-release-once-upon-a-time-in-the-west-blu-ray) lists running times of 165.10 for the theatrical and 165.49 for the restored version.

This is either a spelling mistake for 145.10 in the theatrical release, or they are referring to the later 1984 US theatrical re-release at 165 mins and possibly the Scorsese restoration for the restored version?


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on March 23, 2011, 06:26:18 AM
The Paramount DVD is at least wrong in parts.

1. There is alone in the first scene 1 min missing compared to the European release version (imo the reaL DC). Haven't compared the whole film if there are other bits missing too.
(There are btw another 30 sec for the first scene in the longer version)

2. The closing music is wrong. Cheyenne's theme shouldn't return (stupid idea), instead the America theme runs until the end.

3. The already mentioned "Harmonica Rising" scene shouldn't be in the film.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: T.H. on March 23, 2011, 12:51:29 PM
Interestingly the Paramount press release here (http://www.hometheaterforum.com/forum/thread/309878/phe-press-release-once-upon-a-time-in-the-west-blu-ray) lists running times of 165.10 for the theatrical and 165.49 for the restored version.

This is either a spelling mistake for 145.10 in the theatrical release, or they are referring to the later 1984 US theatrical re-release at 165 mins and possibly the Scorsese restoration for the restored version?

I'd much rather have that be the case. Essentially having two transfers to choose from instead of the inclusion and unnecessary restoration of a studio hack job.

I thought it was going to be released sometime after the French date because it was so popular in that country and there wasn't any news about a potential US release date - as far as my knowledge.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Novecento on March 26, 2011, 04:54:41 AM
A member of the blu-ray forum just posted the following good news:

Quote
According to another site, what we're getting is the version previously available on home video (165.10), and the film as restored by Scorsese's Film Foundation and released theatrically a couple of years back (165.49), containing: "Several shots not included in previous presentations were added, making this restoration the most complete version to date".

I saw it, but I have to admit there was nothing new that really smacked me in the eye at the time. When it comes to Leone, trying to define 'definitive cut' is almost impossible...

I wonder where they got that information from  ??? Sure would like to confirm.



Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on March 27, 2011, 06:10:09 PM
Curiouser and curiouser.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on March 29, 2011, 06:42:37 AM
You can pre-order it at amazon for $15.99.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Groggy on March 30, 2011, 08:27:35 PM
I'll pass.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on March 31, 2011, 06:49:25 AM
You don't have a BD player anyway, right?


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Novecento on March 31, 2011, 02:28:49 PM
I'll definitely be getting this. I can't wait to see the Scorsese restoration.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Lil Brutto on March 31, 2011, 09:24:06 PM
Me too. Really looking forward to this release.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Novecento on April 09, 2011, 02:41:32 PM
The rather excessive German 'Limited Premium Edition'

http://www.amazon.de/Limited-Premium-exklusiv-Amazon-Blu-ray/dp/B004UJM78U/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1302381236&sr=8-7


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on April 09, 2011, 04:28:32 PM
So excessive, I guess, they don't dare tell us what it costs!


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Groggy on April 09, 2011, 07:38:50 PM
You don't have a BD player anyway, right?

That's why I'm passing.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: T.H. on April 12, 2011, 08:34:57 PM
So there are two transfers to choose from? The theatrical hack job isn't going to be remastered?

That would be so great.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: The Peacemaker on April 13, 2011, 01:36:37 PM
I just ordered mine.   ;)


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on May 19, 2011, 10:24:34 AM
First review I've seen is up at thedigitalbits. Here's the meat:
Quote
As much as we love the film, our fears were that it was unlikely to reach Blu-ray anytime soon. Paramount has been cautious with their classics, and Once Upon a Time in the West didn't seem the most likely candidate for catalog release in HD. Fortunately, someone at the studio championed this title and took a risk, so a Blu-ray is now in hand. (And from all of us at The Bits, a BIG thank you!) Even more remarkably, the film looks and sounds EVERY bit as good as we would have hoped.

Flat out, this film looks as good as we've ever seen it, even in the best theatrical projections. Paramount has just done beautiful remastering work on this title. These are some of the deepest, most rock-solid blacks we've ever seen, with abundant shadow detailing. Textures are nuanced and gritty, with just the right amount of print grain visible to preserve the film's original look. Leone's direction is such that you're often seeing extreme close-ups of the actors - every wrinkle, blemish and bit of stubble is accentuated - and you'll miss none of it in this transfer. Colors are accurate and warm, as originally intended. This Blu-ray just offers a big, glorious, ultra-widescreen film image that's sublimely easy to get lost in.

If the Blu-ray's picture is good, the English 5.1 DTS-HD MA audio mix is even better. (Note that you also get restored English, French and Spanish mono in Dolby Digital format, along with English, English SDH, French, Spanish and Portuguese subtitles.) The soundfield is big and wide, matching every inch of the on-screen vistas, and the clarity is exceptional. The mix is subtle and atmospheric in quiet scenes, easily rendering the squeak of a windmill and or whispering wind, and absolutely thunderous during moments of explosive gun-play. Just as critically, composer Ennio Morricone iconic score is perfectly layered in the mix.

You should know, at this point, that the Blu-ray includes BOTH the original, 165-minute American theatrical release AND the restored, 166-minute European version of the film. (The latter cut alone was included on the previous DVD release.) The European version features an added scene where we're first introduced to the character of Cheyenne at a way-side livery and inn, along with a brief scene at the end of the film involving the same character.

Paramount went the extra mile with the supplements on the original special collector's edition DVD. Thankfully, ALL of that content has carried over to the Blu-ray. The original SD features are here in anamorphic widescreen and the film's theatrical trailer has been upgraded to full HD.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on May 19, 2011, 11:41:05 AM
If it contains the cut theatrical version, the runtime ot this one must be wrong.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on May 19, 2011, 12:58:06 PM
That's what I'm thinking . . .


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Novecento on May 19, 2011, 03:25:07 PM
Film foundation restoration is 165min as opposed to the 166min version we all have on DVD:

http://www.film-foundation.org/common/movies/film_details_v2.cfm?QID=815&clientID=11004&sid=2&ssid=7

I can't see why they would include the old butchered US theatrical release, but that review sure does have me worried  :-\


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on May 20, 2011, 02:29:21 AM
My dream is a set with the original version (without the Harmonica rising scene), as it was released in Germany and which is most likely the same as released in France, Italy etc.
Which is the DC imo.

And a 2nd disc with the longer version (which includes the Rising scene and a lot of smaller snippets).

I don't see much reason to release the heavily cut version, nor to re-release the current DVD version.

And I'm glad they will add the mono audio.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on May 20, 2011, 11:47:57 AM
Film foundation restoration is 165min as opposed to the 166min version we all have on DVD:

http://www.film-foundation.org/common/movies/film_details_v2.cfm?QID=815&clientID=11004&sid=2&ssid=7

I can't see why they would include the old butchered US theatrical release, but that review sure does have me worried  :-\
I can't either, but stupider things have been done. As you say, that review has created cause for worry.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Novecento on May 21, 2011, 09:06:15 AM
It seems we are getting the 166min Scorcese restoration along with the 165min one  :).

http://forum.blu-ray.com/blu-ray-movies-north-america/167266-once-upon-time-west-may-31-2011-a-10.html

If you scroll down, you will see the BD cover confirming the lengths. According to one post there, Harmonica apparently rises from the dead in both versions.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on May 21, 2011, 09:47:53 AM
Well, then the Scorsese rerstoration runs 39 sec longer, which then must all to be find in the first scene. I remembered it being a min, but that I have to check again.

Too bad, the Harmonica Rising scene is still there, and that's a bit disappointing from a guy like Scorsese. He should have done better.


This one scene destroys some of the genius of the long opening with the 3 long scenes which are introducing the 4 main characters.
That's like having 2001 without the so called match cut from the falling bone to the spaceship. Or let's say having a bridging scene in-between or an insert which tells us that the film now switches in the year 2001.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: T.H. on May 21, 2011, 01:04:54 PM
Why the hell would they restore the theatrical version? What inept fools.

That's pathetic.

Prediction: The old DVD version won't look as good as the hacked up cut.

Hope I'm wrong.

I am I-Fucking-Rate just at the thought of this being so fucked up.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on May 21, 2011, 02:46:58 PM
I have compared an old TV version recorded on VHS, and if the counter of my VHS Recorder does not lie, the German theatrical version runs 1 min and 8 sec longer than the Paramount DVD in the first scene.

Hmmmh ...


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Novecento on May 21, 2011, 04:55:41 PM
Well, then the Scorsese rerstoration runs 39 sec longer, which then must all to be find in the first scene. I remembered it being a min, but that I have to check again.
Why the hell would they restore the theatrical version? What inept fools.

That's pathetic.

Prediction: The old DVD version won't look as good as the hacked up cut.

Hope I'm wrong.

I am I-Fucking-Rate just at the thought of this being so fucked up.

It appears to include the 165 "Theatrical" version (i.e. the one on the current Paramount DVD) and the 166 Scorcese "Restored" version.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Walton on May 21, 2011, 09:07:03 PM
DVD Beaver review:

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/dvdcompare/onceuponatimeinthewest.htm


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on May 22, 2011, 08:52:39 AM
Here's the Beev's money quote:
Quote
ADDITION: Paramount - Region FREE - Blu-ray - May 11': Comments coming soon! Firstly, I had some difficulty getting a few of the captures with the exact frame due to a permanent time-bar on pauses, but some are exact. The new Paramount dual-layered Blu-ray offers both the 2:45:24 Theatrical cut and the 2:46:01 'restored' cut of Once Upon a Time in the West. These two cuts are seamlessly branched so the quality is exactly the same in the parallel scenes. My fear was that the image would appear too glossy but I am satisfied - grain is there - a shade blotchy by the overall picture quality is significantly richer. I'll put this down to more adept contrast. Skin tones seem warmer. The DVDs looks green now compared to the Blu-ray which may be slightly blue. The trademark Leone close-ups are tight and pleasing. The scope achieves a much grander scale (epic landscapes) and visually in-motion this is an impressive film to see it 1080P.
So by "theatrical cut" they mean the European theatrical cut, not the orginal chopped down American theatrical cut. Those guys at thedigitalbits were, apparently, confused by the nomenclature.

This sounds good.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Novecento on May 22, 2011, 01:05:27 PM
Yeh, it sounds to me like the guy over at the digitalbits only watched the "restored" version and simply assumed the "theatrical" cut was the original US release.

Can't wait to get my copy now.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on May 22, 2011, 01:28:26 PM
Here's the Beev's money quote:So by "theatrical cut" they mean the European theatrical cut, not the orginal chopped down American theatrical cut.

But again, then it shouldn't contain the Rising scene.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: T.H. on May 24, 2011, 04:24:59 PM
Thank god.

One last question, does anyone know if the music is fixed in the end credits? It's so jarring and annoying when one of Jill's themes gets abruptly cut off. Did the Scorsese restoration address this?


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on May 25, 2011, 07:37:22 AM
Doubtful, but we'll see next week.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: T.H. on May 25, 2011, 10:05:48 AM
I'll hope for the best.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on May 26, 2011, 07:40:12 PM
http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Once-Upon-a-Time-in-the-West-Blu-ray/7740/#Review

Quote
Once Upon a Time in the West's Blu-ray release serves as further proof that it's hard to beat Paramount when the studio gives full effort to a title, new or catalogue. Indeed, Sergio Leone's masterpiece Western looks absolutely superb on Blu-ray, serving as one of the finest-looking pictures of its era yet on the high definition format. The image is sharp without appearing excessively so, enhanced by a natural layer of film grain that positively accentuates the wonderful clarity and definition of Leone's and Delli Colli's sweaty, sun-drenched, rustic Western. Textures of old wooden planks, creases in leather, fine sandy and dusty terrain, and weather-worn and sweaty faces never fail to not only impress, but dazzle at the intricacy with which the transfer yields both general and fine detailing across every frame and at most any distance. Clarity is wonderful, softness is rare, and great natural depth is evident in many scenes. Colors are greatly influenced by the harsh lighting of the hot sun beating down on bronzed faces and earthen terrains; tans, yellows, and browns dominate the palette, but each shade no matter how subtle or (however rarely) bold seems perfectly balanced. Black levels, too, are impeccably inky and never crush out critical details in darker scenes. On the negative side of the ledger, slight wobble is evident, a few very subtle pops and scratches remain in spots, and a hint of blockiness and noise infiltrates a few backgrounds, but such problems range from inconsequential at best to minor at worst and never really detract from the overall Blu-ray experience. No doubt Paramount has hit another home run with Once Upon a Time in the West; this comes pretty close to Blu-ray perfection, and fans couldn't have dreamed of a restoration this gorgeous.

The reviewer does not address the music cue issues this thread has been concerned with.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Walton on May 27, 2011, 06:43:57 AM
Another review here:

http://www.highdefdiscnews.com/?p=61703


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on May 27, 2011, 01:39:21 PM
Thanks. That reviewer sounds reliable. I had to laugh at this comment, though:
Quote
Once the harmonica starts you’ll soon get to hear the first bits of dialogue and notice that some of it tends to appear to have been dubbed as lips don’t totally match up — while some others look fine and don’t appear to have been dubbed.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on May 28, 2011, 06:41:29 PM
A comment by a poster over at criterionforum.org:
Quote
Okay, so the "Restored Version" is quite bizarre. In essence, 'they' (Scorsese?) have cherry-picked some of the longeurs from the Italian version (eg. a couple of extra shots of Elam with the fly; some unconvincing mugging from Elam before Bronson appears) whilst ignoring others (eg. the longer dolly in as Cardinale disembarks from the train; the mashed up music over the final flashback) and retaining the shorter English language titles. As such, it's hard to argue that these minor changes (c.+30s) are damaging exactly, but they certainly don't add anything and imho the Theatrical Cut remains the one to watch.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on May 30, 2011, 06:13:54 PM
The discussion, which is interesting, continues: http://www.criterionforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=340751#p340751


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Walton on May 30, 2011, 11:58:24 PM
I'm looking forward to hearing from any forum members who buy the blu ray. I'm all the way down in Australia so it'll take a long time for it to hit our shores. I might have to order it from Amazon...


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: The Peacemaker on May 31, 2011, 10:37:04 AM
Having seen the Scorsese restoration in Manhattan four years ago, I can say from experience that the new cut version does not feature all of the missing shots from the Italian cut. It did contain all the additional footage in the first scene and I think a few shots of the extras in the cheyenne/harmonica encounter scene, that's it. I personally think the reason for many of the shots not included in the restoration is because of the audio. If the shots were left out even for original American distribution, I doubt any English audio was recorded. Most of the shots are on average 10 to 15 seconds long so most of them do not feature dialogue, but a for the extended shot of Jill's entrance, there are numerous passengers speaking as the camera dollies, obviously in Italian. Also, I noticed the music ("Bad Orchestra") begins and ends at different intervals in the Italian version, as well as a few other scenes where additional footage remains. So I'm assuming this is probably the reason for much of the shots being left out, however it's anyone's guess.

I pre-ordered the blu-ray, so I should be receiving it sometime later this week. As soon as I view the movie, I will confirm if they add even more footage to the Scorsese restoration, but I highly doubt it.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on May 31, 2011, 10:49:14 AM
Blu-ray in da house!


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 31, 2011, 11:44:18 AM
I'm about to head out and purchase my copy!  O0


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on May 31, 2011, 12:23:37 PM
Having seen the Scorsese restoration in Manhattan four years ago, I can say from experience that the new cut version does not feature all of the missing shots from the Italian cut. It did contain all the additional footage in the first scene and I think a few shots of the extras in the cheyenne/harmonica encounter scene, that's it. I personally think the reason for many of the shots not included in the restoration is because of the audio. If the shots were left out even for original American distribution, I doubt any English audio was recorded. Most of the shots are on average 10 to 15 seconds long so most of them do not feature dialogue, but a for the extended shot of Jill's entrance, there are numerous passengers speaking as the camera dollies, obviously in Italian. Also, I noticed the music ("Bad Orchestra") begins and ends at different intervals in the Italian version, as well as a few other scenes where additional footage remains. So I'm assuming this is probably the reason for much of the shots being left out, however it's anyone's guess.



To make this again clear, as there still seems to be some confusion.
This long 177 min version which was released on Italian DVDs is not the Italian version which was released theatrically in 1968. The original Italian version is most likely the same 165 min version that was released in most of the other countries (if there weren't made further cuts like in the English version).

This 177 min version appeared in the mid 90s and was a restoration done by a guy called Claver Sallizato.  This restoration was probably done from a private copy from Leone (but I'm not sure of the actual origin of this version), but it is not necessarily the DC, but more likely only an alternative cut.

As far as I know Scorsese wanted to restore the original theatrical cut, which only differs slightly from the English version featured on the Paramount DVD.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Novecento on May 31, 2011, 01:50:57 PM
This 177 min version appeared in the mid 90s and was a restoration done by a guy called Claver Sallizato.

I didn't know the name behind this 177min version. Who is this guy?

Blu-ray in da house!
.

Oh yeh!


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on May 31, 2011, 02:27:44 PM
I didn't know the name behind this 177min version. Who is this guy?
.


I have no clue, as I have no clue where he got this version from. Ask Titoli ...

Here's btw again the link with all the differences presented very detailed and with screenshots between this alternative  long version and the English version on the Paramount disc. But now in English:

http://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=4208


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on June 01, 2011, 10:30:50 AM
Once Upon a Time in the West (1968) - 11/10. First Blu-ray viewing; first viewing of the Scorsese cut. It turns out that if you blink several times in the first 13 minutes, you miss all the added footage. Still a great film, though. And the disc's image looks very, very good.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 01, 2011, 02:50:05 PM
Once Upon a Time in the West (1968) - 11/10. First Blu-ray viewing; first viewing of the Scorsese cut. It turns out that if you blink several times in the first 13 minutes, you miss all the added footage. Still a great film, though. And the disc's image looks very, very good.

1. how many minutes is the blu-ray?
2. is there anything significant here that is not in the regular 165-minute dvd, or is it all basically minor stuff I wouldn't even notice if I wasn't paying close attention lookin for it?


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Dust Devil on June 01, 2011, 02:52:16 PM
It turns out that if you blink several times in the first 13 minutes, you miss all the added footage.

Obviously, you didn't watch the end credits very carefully.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Walton on June 02, 2011, 04:15:25 AM
Dave - how did the blu ray image look compared to the dvd?


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Leonardo on June 02, 2011, 06:26:40 AM
It seems we are getting the 166min Scorcese restoration along with the 165min one  :).

Can't help thinking about an old Leone interview in Diego Gabutti's "C'era una volta in America" (page 37) , when he talks about OUTITW: "People very often ask me whether  my personal print of the movie contains  scenes which had not been added in the final theatrical release" he said grinning "You see? It's like everybody wants me to add a little piece to it..!"
But I think the definite answer about missing scenes in OUTITW is in Franco Ferrini's  book "L'antiwestern e il caso Leone" published in 1971. There is a part of an interview with Leone dedicated to cuts and missing scenes of all his westerns, and concerning OUTITW Leone says (page 42): "The scene with the laundry owner's wife and the sheriff is missing, another one in the barbershop, which was particularly funny" The interviewer then asks about the massacre scene (Morton's train) and Leone says: "No, that one I left out on purpose, it was more important to show the result rather than how it happened".
On page 43 Ferrini writes: "It should be kept in mind that Leone's personal print is slightly longer than the theatrical release. It has two scenes which were not added. The first one showing Harmonica rising after being wounded at the train station. This scene was not in the original script and we publish now the description based on Leone's personal print. The second one is about Brett McBains hunting scene with his son Timmy; it's much longer and detailed compaired to the commercial release.
As Ferrini had access to Leone's personal copy of the movie, I guess it is reliable.
Incidentally, the book contains the original full script for DYS, as well as the script of the missing footage of OUTITW.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on June 02, 2011, 06:27:57 AM
Obviously, you didn't watch the end credits very carefully.
True, what did I miss? I just watched long enough to make sure that Cheyenne's theme returns (which it does).


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on June 02, 2011, 06:33:45 AM
2. is there anything significant here that is not in the regular 165-minute dvd, or is it all basically minor stuff I wouldn't even notice if I wasn't paying close attention lookin for it?
I'd say "basically minor stuff I wouldn't even notice if I wasn't paying close attention lookin for it."

That said, it's not like you have to choose between buying one version or the other, they come together on the same disc.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Dust Devil on June 02, 2011, 07:11:32 AM
True, what did I miss?

I don't know, I was joking.

My point being: what did you guys expect they were gonna put in it anyway?


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: T.H. on June 02, 2011, 12:59:22 PM
I'm a bit disappointed with the image. It doesn't look all that much better than the DVD upscaled. My expectations were probably too high, and I need to sit down and watch it in its entirety before sticking with my original impression.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 02, 2011, 04:14:55 PM
I'm a bit disappointed with the image. It doesn't look all that much better than the DVD upscaled. My expectations were probably too high, and I need to sit down and watch it in its entirety before sticking with my original impression.

For some reason the local stores don't have it in stock so I ordered it from Amazon. It's scheduled to be delivered in a few days.

Anyways, it hasn't been discussed as of yet, but how does this BD compare with the Mondo DVD with restored video (by Fotocinema S.p.A.)?



Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 05, 2011, 07:06:06 AM
Can't help thinking about an old Leone interview in Diego Gabutti's "C'era una volta in America" (page 37) , when he talks about OUTITW: "People very often ask me whether  my personal print of the movie contains  scenes which had not been added in the final theatrical release" he said grinning "You see? It's like everybody wants me to add a little piece to it..!"
But I think the definite answer about missing scenes in OUTITW is in Franco Ferrini's  book "L'antiwestern e il caso Leone" published in 1971. There is a part of an interview with Leone dedicated to cuts and missing scenes of all his westerns, and concerning OUTITW Leone says (page 42): "The scene with the laundry owner's wife and the sheriff is missing, another one in the barbershop, which was particularly funny" The interviewer then asks about the massacre scene (Morton's train) and Leone says: "No, that one I left out on purpose, it was more important to show the result rather than how it happened".
On page 43 Ferrini writes: "It should be kept in mind that Leone's personal print is slightly longer than the theatrical release. It has two scenes which were not added. The first one showing Harmonica rising after being wounded at the train station. This scene was not in the original script and we publish now the description based on Leone's personal print. The second one is about Brett McBains hunting scene with his son Timmy; it's much longer and detailed compaired to the commercial release.
As Ferrini had access to Leone's personal copy of the movie, I guess it is reliable.
Incidentally, the book contains the original full script for DYS, as well as the script of the missing footage of OUTITW.

This is great information! This actually means that the rising scene was always intended to be in the cut - if it's in Leone's personal print. Thanks for sharing, does Leone have anything interesting to say about the deleted scenes in the dollars trilogy?




Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Leonardo on June 05, 2011, 11:28:20 AM
This is great information! This actually means that the rising scene was always intended to be in the cut - if it's in Leone's personal print. Thanks for sharing, does Leone have anything interesting to say about the deleted scenes in the dollars trilogy?
I quote from the same book by Franco Ferrini, page 41:
Ferrini: "In your dollar trilogy, are there any scenes that did not make it into the final cut?".
Leone: "There are no missing scenes in FOD and FFDM. The cuts start with GBU, which has two scenes completely missing. One is when Tuco recruits the 3 bandits who were supposed to kill Blondie, his enemy. Then there is a scene with Blondie escaping and Tuco in pursuit. In a small village close to the border to New Mexico, he finds Blondie's trail again, while in the background peones and confederate soldiers are moving around. The soldiers are trying to recruit the peones for the war, but Tuco, thinking about the sad fate of these poor peones, proposes to collect some money and while waiting in a saloon for the collection to start, he discovers that Blondie is upstairs with a woman. In the end, Blondie manages to escape again, taking all the money raised with the collection with him, thus screwing Tuco again..."
No doubt the first scene is the grotto scene, whereas the second one is the Socorro scene, which I'm afraid we'll never see, although I personally think it must have been quite interesting and funny. These too scenes, according to Ferrini's book, where not even included in Leone's personal copy of the movie.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 05, 2011, 11:34:05 AM
This is great information! This actually means that the rising scene was always intended to be in the cut - if it's in Leone's personal print.





Not really. This private print is not necssarily a DC.

I think if Leone wanted it in, he would have used it for the theatrical Italian version. As it makes the film more accessible. Without the scene the whole beginning is stronger, is more irritating.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 06, 2011, 06:38:22 AM
1. was the part of Harmonica rising included in the original USA theatrical release (which I think was about 144 minutes)?

2. I figure now may be as good as ever a time to ask if you guys think I should buy a blu-ray player? Is it worth it? I own very few dvd's anyway (less than 20); I only think it's worthwhile to buy the movie if it is an all-time fave that I will continually re-watch. Otherwise, most of my movie-watching comes from the classic movie channels on cable (particularly TCM), and some rentals from Netflix as well (my undertsanding is they have blu-ray as well)... So.. would y'all recommend I finally get with the times and buy a blu-ray player? Or, considering my viewing/owning habits, is it really not worth it?

Thanks!


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: cigar joe on June 06, 2011, 07:30:12 AM
DJ will say yes Titoli (with his new wall projection player) will say no. lol. 

Me, I have too many DVD's at the moment and no plans to upgrade soon, I don't even have a flatscreen TV yet.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 06, 2011, 07:53:45 AM
Not really. This private print is not necssarily a DC.

I think if Leone wanted it in, he would have used it for the theatrical Italian version. As it makes the film more accessible. Without the scene the whole beginning is stronger, is more irritating.

But the answer is no longer definitive. It's not necessarily NOT a D.C. It's a grey area...why would Leone keep a scene in his own print in if he personally wanted it out? I agree with you that it was not included in the release version - but maybe somebody else made him cut it from that.

This is the first evidence I've heard that argues for the rising scene being included. Maybe this is the conclusion Scorsese et al came to. I guess we'll never know what Leone would consider the definitive version.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 06, 2011, 07:59:16 AM
DJ will say yes Titoli (with his new wall projection player) will say no. lol.  

Me, I have too many DVD's at the moment and no plans to upgrade soon, I don't even have a flatscreen TV yet.

1. I would definitely recommend getting an hdtv -- they have become relatively cheap (eg. I paid about $300 for my 22' SONY hdtv 6 months ago; you can get off-brands even cheaper) and the picture quality and widescreen are incredible

2. RE: me getting a blu-ray player: on the one hand I haven't rally built up a dvd collection yet, so maybe I should get the BRP before I do start buying lots of movies?  On the other hand, I really don't plan on buying many movies, so maybe it ain't worthwhile? If do I have the BRP then I'd be able to rent BR discs from Netflix instead of dvd's. But the majority of movies I still watch are probably on TCM... I've never seen a blu ray movie before and I am just wondering if the picture quality is that much better than dvd's to justify the cost? Especially considering that most movies I watch are old ones -- not sure if the dvd vs. BR distinction is greater or smaller on old movies?


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Leonardo on June 06, 2011, 08:42:58 AM
DJ will say yes Titoli (with his new wall projection player) will say no. lol. 
Me, I have too many DVD's at the moment and no plans to upgrade soon, I don't even have a flatscreen TV yet.
I agree with Titoli, but I also think that a flat screen LCD/LED TV improves the quality of the DVD in any case. I have a normal DVD Samsung player, but when I replaced my old TV with  a Samsung 37' flat screen LCD/LED, the picture was a completely different ball game. So my advice would be forget about BR and keep your old DVD player (provided it is still in good shape), but  concentrate on the quality of your TV. ;)


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 06, 2011, 09:30:23 AM
I agree with Titoli, but I also think that a flat screen LCD/LED TV improves the quality of the DVD in any case. I have a normal DVD Samsung player, but when I replaced my old TV with  a Samsung 37' flat screen LCD/LED, the picture was a completely different ball game. So my advice would be forget about BR and keep your old DVD player (provided it is still in good shape), but  concentrate on the quality of your TV. ;)

I have a 22' Sony LED tv, and a Samsung dvd-recorder/VHS combo; I bought both of 'em about nine months ago


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 06, 2011, 10:18:23 AM
1. I would definitely recommend getting an hdtv -- they have become relatively cheap (eg. I paid about $300 for my 22' SONY hdtv 6 months ago; you can get off-brands even cheaper) and the picture quality and widescreen are incredible

2. RE: me getting a blu-ray player: on the one hand I haven't rally built up a dvd collection yet, so maybe I should get the BRP before I do start buying lots of movies?  On the other hand, I really don't plan on buying many movies, so maybe it ain't worthwhile? If do I have the BRP then I'd be able to rent BR discs from Netflix instead of dvd's. But the majority of movies I still watch are probably on TCM... I've never seen a blu ray movie before and I am just wondering if the picture quality is that much better than dvd's to justify the cost? Especially considering that most movies I watch are old ones -- not sure if the dvd vs. BR distinction is greater or smaller on old movies?


As far as it being worth it for older movies, it certainly depends on the studio doing the restoration and the source elements. If you see "the searchers" for instance on blu-ray it will blow you away, as it was mastered from 65 mm elements and to me it looks better than a lot of more recent films. A lot of older movies have been restored to "better" than their original theatrical presentation, the recent "Taxi driver" blu ray is stunning for instance, the godfather films are also in pristine quality on BR. If you decide to buy a player (most of which retail for $150 now) I would recommend you look up BR disc reviews before you buy, there are many poor restorations out there as well that won't show off the true capability of the format. One of my favorite sites for comparison and reviews is dvdbeaver.com - certainly to appreciate the difference in Blu Ray you'll also need a large, high quality hdtv, that's where you'll really see the advantages of the higher resolution.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on June 06, 2011, 10:49:31 AM
If you have a lot of DVDs AND are willing to buy a large flat panel display (42" or larger, with resolution at 720 or 1080), then a blu-ray player will help you get the best picture for your media. I've said it before and I'll repeat it now: if you NEVER own a BD disc, a BD player will still give you a picutre quality upgrade for your DVDs.

However, if you get most of your movie-viewing material off cable or net streaming, a player might not be worth it to you. If you don't already have the big screen TV, that's the first thing to upgrade to (since it will improve your broadcast image). Once you have the screen, you can then make the decision to add a BD player (and players have gotten quite cheap).


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 06, 2011, 11:02:27 AM
If you have a lot of DVDs AND are willing to buy a large flat panel display (42" or larger, with resolution at 720 or 1080), then a blu-ray player will help you get the best picture for your media. I've said it before and I'll repeat it now: if you NEVER own a BD disc, a BD player will still give you a picutre quality upgrade for your DVDs.

However, if you get most of your movie-viewing material off cable or net streaming, a player might not be worth it to you. If you don't already have the big screen TV, that's the first thing to upgrade to (since it will improve your broadcast image). Once you have the screen, you can then make the decision to add a BD player (and players have gotten quite cheap).

I don't see myself getting a new tv in the foreseeable future; my 22'' SONY that I bought recently is beautiful. so I guess you'd recommend no BRP for me?


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on June 06, 2011, 11:57:30 AM
The player without the new screen isn't really worth it. You won't see the increased resolution if you don't have something that displays it.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 06, 2011, 01:16:22 PM
But the answer is no longer definitive. It's not necessarily NOT a D.C. It's a grey area...why would Leone keep a scene in his own print in if he personally wanted it out? I agree with you that it was not included in the release version - but maybe somebody else made him cut it from that.

This is the first evidence I've heard that argues for the rising scene being included. Maybe this is the conclusion Scorsese et al came to. I guess we'll never know what Leone would consider the definitive version.

In the end we don't know.
I never have read anything from Leone complaining about the theatrical version. Question is still where Leone derived this long version from. It contains alternative shots, and one short scene is missing, and the score is also partly different.
And even if Leone kept this print with the Rising scene it doesn't mean that he preferred the film with the scene.
The added 12 min have btw only one sentence of dialogue, and that is in one of the alternative shots. What makes the Rising scene different from all the other scenes from the original shooting script is that it contains no dialogue. I assume that the other scenes which were filmed and not used were never dubbed, which means no dialogue, no sound, no music. The Rising scene was at least dubbed for the chopped-up English print.

Maybe this long version was a first version before the final fine cutting was done. Maybe it simply contains all the material which was dubbed. Maybe it is the DC. Maybe something else.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 06, 2011, 03:00:40 PM
Yes, you make some solid and valid points Stanton. I was just reacting to the idea that this other cut was "Leone's Personal print" which I've never read described as such except for this new quote from the french book, published in 1971 (only a couple years after the film) where the author had personal interaction with Leone and was able to watch "Leone's cut". You're right in assuming it was probably a workprint or unfinished version...however it must have been somewhat finished as they were able to pull a decent enough print to make the Italian dvd's in 1995.

On page 43 Ferrini writes: "It should be kept in mind that Leone's personal print is slightly longer than the theatrical release. It has two scenes which were not added. The first one showing Harmonica rising after being wounded at the train station. This scene was not in the original script and we publish now the description based on Leone's personal print. The second one is about Brett McBains hunting scene with his son Timmy; it's much longer and detailed compared to the commercial release.



For instance in Oreste De Fornari's Sergio Leone book, it says:

"Some scenes were originally longer than in the release version: Harmonica gets up again after the opening duel; the Mcbains return from the hunt just before the massacre; Harmonica tails Wobbles to Morton's private railway car. These scenes were put back into the edition restored in 1995 under the direction of Clavier Salizzato, with the assistance of Sergio leone Production Telepiu, Centro Sperimentale di Cinematografia Cinceteca Nazionale. It is 11 minutes longer than the original."

In that book it's not implied that it's Leone's cut.

Also, in Frayling's spaghetti westerns book he says he presumes the rising scene was re-instated to make up for the saloon scene. It certainly makes sense as such, but I think that we're assuming that was more of a "fact" than it might be.

*edit*
After reading the Video Watchdog article again, the origin of the rising scene post first release is pretty clear (instated in the 70's into new 16mm prints, retained for all subsequent prints). It's still unclear why it's in "Leone's personal print". However the author of the V.W. article again uses Frayling's presumption about reason behind the inclusion of the scene as more "fact" than it might be. Again, I agree it makes sense, but it's still only a theory. He also chooses to ignore the 1995 italian version altogether...




Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 06, 2011, 04:06:22 PM
How long and detailed is this Video Watchdog article?

Funnily the mentioned hunting scene respective the complete scene with McBain's family is in all versions the same.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 06, 2011, 04:40:21 PM
I was just reacting to the idea that this other cut was "Leone's Personal print" which I've never read described as such except for this new quote from the french book, published in 1971 (only a couple years after the film) where the author had personal interaction with Leone and was able to watch "Leone's cut". You're right in assuming it was probably a workprint or unfinished version...however it must have been somewhat finished as they were able to pull a decent enough print to make the Italian dvd's in 1995.

On page 43 Ferrini writes: "It should be kept in mind that Leone's personal print is slightly longer than the theatrical release. It has two scenes which were not added. The first one showing Harmonica rising after being wounded at the train station. This scene was not in the original script and we publish now the description based on Leone's personal print. The second one is about Brett McBains hunting scene with his son Timmy; it's much longer and detailed compared to the commercial release.





When the long version was first shown on German TV my newspaper announced it as a private copy of Leone found in his archive. And surprisingly they did not try to sell it as DC.
The quote from the Ferini book was since then the first thing which confirmed that such a copy exists.

The Italian DVD claims:

"This is the uncut version the Director wanted, never released in the movie houses. Among others this restoration involved Tonino Delli Colli, Ennio Morricone, Sergio Leone Production, C.S.C. and Cineteca Nazionale.

But in a recent German Leone book the author writes about the 177 min version:

"It is controversial, if this is the from Leone intended version"

Which means that there was probably some discussion in Italy if it is true what the DVD claims. And if so I would really like to read this discussions.
And I would like to read this Video Watchdog article.


Frankly said, for the most parts, all the 165 min versions work better than the long version. Imo

Apart from that tracking shot along the train before we first see CC (23:51) and the segment with the tin soldiers of Morton (at 1:25:24) all the other added pieces don't help the film, but only make it longer.
Ohh, and the first scene of course. For the first 10 min the Paramount DVD is indeed comparatively fast, too fast cause it is too short. But most of the added shots and pieces of the first 10 min were already part of the German version, and I don't want to miss them.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 06, 2011, 04:45:13 PM
How long and detailed is this Video Watchdog article?

And the hunting scene respective the complete scene with McBain's family is in all versions the same.

It's very detailed and explores the "6 versions" of OATITW as it has existed in US prints. I would consider it the definitive word on the US cuts, but not the international, it does not really have any info on italian/german/french prints. Maybe when I get a chance I can scan it for everyone, it's very informative.

here's a lot of what we're talking about (and they even quote the board :)

http://criterionforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2698&start=125

I agree, the only shot I really miss in the 165 min version is the shot of the tin soldier toppling and morton catching it. For me it really is a nice allusion to his troubles.



Does anyone know if the end music is still messed up on the Blu Ray? (haven't been able to find it yet in Canada)



Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 06, 2011, 04:58:30 PM
It's very detailed and explores the "6 versions" of OATITW as it has existed in US prints. I would consider it the definitive word on the US cuts, but not the international, it does not really have any info on italian/german/french prints. Maybe when I get a chance I can scan it for everyone, it's very informative.






A scan would be great


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 06, 2011, 05:35:18 PM
so once we see the scene at the trading post, do you believe that the Rising scene is redundant? (that would counter the stdwd theory; IMO, the Rising scene is essential for the stdwd theory)


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 06, 2011, 05:37:04 PM
The player without the new screen isn't really worth it. You won't see the increased resolution if you don't have something that displays it.

but I guess one advantage of getting a BRP anyway is that there are certain extra features included on some movie's BR discs that are not on the dvd (eg. the Scorcese version of OUATITW, and Frayling's commentary on GBU...)


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 06, 2011, 08:52:47 PM


A scan would be great

Scans uploaded in the OUATITW forum under a new topic. 


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 06, 2011, 09:41:00 PM
Thanks much for posting the scans, Jordan. I have begun reading it already and plan to finish it soon; it is much appreciated  O0




I wondering whether anyone who has seen the new BR can please answer the following questions for me (I apologize if they have been answered on this board previously; don't recall seeing them answered anywhere here, and I have not found any helpful discussions on Amazon or imdb either). Here goes:

1) My understanding is that the new BR has both the 165-minute version we have currently seen on the Paramount release, plus the Scorcese longer version. Is this correct?

2) what special features are included on the BR in addition to whatever is on the Paramount release? (I checked Amazon and it doesn't list the special features).

3) specifically, I want to know if any commentaries offered in addition to the one already offered on the Paramount dvd?
One big problem I have with the Paramount dvd is the commentaries. Rather than having Frayling -- probably the most knowledgeable person ever on Leone -- deliver the entire commentary, there is a hodgepodge of people delivering commentary various parts of the movie, some better than others, but it doesn't flow very well. They should have had Frayling do it himself, beginning to end. Does Frayling and/or anyone else deliver a feature-length audio commentary on the BR in addition to the commentary that can be found on the Paramount dvd?

4) on Amazon, the BR is listed as having an aspect ratio of 1.85:1. Is that indeed the aspect ratio of the BR disc? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me they did not chop the sides of the movie for the BR. PLEASE  :o

3) Does the Scorcese version end with the "Finale" music (as I understand Leone intended), or does it end with "Farewell to Cheyenne" playing over the closing credits as in the dvd?

Thanks!


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 07, 2011, 10:25:15 AM
[
Thanks much for posting the scans, Jordan. I have begun reading it already and plan to finish it soon; it is much appreciated  O0

No problem, it puts into print a lot of what's been debated over the years..I downloaded a BR rip of the film this morning (and it's preceded by the new restoration card so I know its genuine) so even though I don't have the BR itself, I took a quick look and maybe I can answer some of your questions, although until I have the actual BR I won't be 100% sure...I've also read many of the reviews which is how I can answer your questions about the bonus features etc.


I wondering whether anyone who has seen the new BR can please answer the following questions for me (I apologize if they have been answered on this board previously; don't recall seeing them answered anywhere here, and I have not found any helpful discussions on Amazon or imdb either). Here goes:

1) My understanding is that the new BR has both the 165-minute version we have currently seen on the Paramount release, plus the Scorcese longer version. Is this correct?

Yes, contrary to what was reported confusingly on thedigitalbits, this is what the blu ray has.


2) what special features are included on the BR in addition to whatever is on the Paramount release? (I checked Amazon and it doesn't list the special features).

No NEW features. Only all the old dvd features have been ported over (and in sd, not HD)


3) specifically, I want to know if any commentaries offered in addition to the one already offered on the Paramount dvd?
One big problem I have with the Paramount dvd is the commentaries. Rather than having Frayling -- probably the most knowledgeable person ever on Leone -- deliver the entire commentary, there is a hodgepodge of people delivering commentary various parts of the movie, some better than others, but it doesn't flow very well. They should have had Frayling do it himself, beginning to end. Does Frayling and/or anyone else deliver a feature-length audio commentary on the BR in addition to the commentary that can be found on the Paramount dvd?

Same commentary, I agree, I'd rather just have Frayling.



4) on Amazon, the BR is listed as having an aspect ratio of 1.85:1. Is that indeed the aspect ratio of the BR disc? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me they did not chop the sides of the movie for the BR. PLEASE  :o

No, it's 2:35 - the proper aspect.

3) Does the Scorcese version end with the "Finale" music (as I understand Leone intended), or does it end with "Farewell to Cheyenne" playing over the closing credits as in the dvd?

Ugh!!!, it ends like the DVD. Damn it, another chance to fix it and they blew it again.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 07, 2011, 10:56:17 AM
Botched ending? All this hype over the years about the Scorcese restoration...for nothing.  Will these "pros" ever get this film right?? ::)

My BD is on the UPS truck and will be delivered today. I'm no longer very excited about it.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Novecento on June 07, 2011, 12:58:57 PM
For instance in Oreste De Fornari's Sergio Leone book, it says:

"Some scenes were originally longer than in the release version: Harmonica gets up again after the opening duel; the Mcbains return from the hunt just before the massacre; Harmonica tails Wobbles to Morton's private railway car. These scenes were put back into the edition restored in 1995 under the direction of Clavier Salizzato, with the assistance of Sergio leone Production Telepiu, Centro Sperimentale di Cinematografia Cinceteca Nazionale. It is 11 minutes longer than the original."

In that book it's not implied that it's Leone's cut.

I was just reading DeFornari's book last night as well.

Claver Salizatto's name is misprinted as Clavier in this quote from page 73. It is correctly spelled as Claver on p4 where it says that the restored versions of OUATITW and DYS, edited by Claver Salizatto, were released at the Spoleto '95 and Venice '96 film festivals respectively.

What's interesting is that it seems that the original Italian release of DYS was slightly shorter than its, for example, French counterpart. Consequently, just because the rising scene was not in the Italian release of OUATITW does not necessarily mean Leone did not want it to be included. Of course, it doesn't mean the opposite either.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 07, 2011, 02:07:46 PM
Jordan,  the Scorsese version is 39 sec longer, so is it then the first scene which is these 39 sec longer?


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 07, 2011, 02:45:15 PM
Thanks much, Jordan  O0

1. so just to confirm: the only difference between the Scorcese version on the BRD and the Paramount dvd is the extra few seconds in the opening scene (which I understand was already available in some Italian versions), correct? (if that's the case, then there is no way I am purchasing the BRD just for a few seconds extra that are available on YouTube anyway)

2. Until I read the article you posted, I was never fully aware of all the different versions of OUATITW. Specifically, I wasn't aware of the different ending music (ie. that the film ends with Farewell to Cheyenne though Leone  intended it to end with the Finale music).

After reading that article in full, (remind me where it is from?) I realize for the first time how badly the ending music is screwed up (the other changes [ie. the brief moments cut from the opening scene and the addition of Harmonica Rising] don't really bother me), but the difference in ending music is terrible. One way I try to console myself and tell myself it ain't so bad is that the Cheyenne  music begins once the end credits begin to roll, after the movie is already "over," so it's not really changing the movie, just the credits music. But the truth is, I know it's just a lame attempt to console myself; it is a HUGE screwup    >:(

how many fucking times can studios screw this up before they finally realize YOU DON'T MESS WITH THE WORK OF A MASTER. all of the Once Upon a Time trilogy was screwed by the studios. sons of fucking bitches  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 07, 2011, 04:46:56 PM
Jordan,  the Scorsese version is 39 sec longer, so is it then the first scene which is these 39 sec longer?

As I understand it, there are three versions of the opening (waiting for the train)- 1. the original u.s. premiere cut before it was edited 2. the slightly trimmed down cut after paramount butchered the rest (which up to the Scorcese restoration was the cut we all know) and 3. the 1995 italian "long" cut which has even more footage than #1.

It's my belief that the new blu-ray cut restores 39 seconds to make it the opening from #1. People are saying Scorcese arbitrarily chose new shots to be included after looking at #3, but I think they just found an existing print of #1. and used that opening. (we don't have anything from the #1 cut to compare that to though, so I'm theorizing, but to me that makes the most logical sense - I can't see Scorcese making ANY decisions on Leone's behalf).

**EDIT**

I'm probably wrong, see Stanton's observation about the german print below. So that means there are 4 versions and Scorcese's is #4...why the heck he would make choices like that is beyond me though.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 07, 2011, 04:51:09 PM
Thanks much, Jordan  O0

1. so just to confirm: the only difference between the Scorcese version on the BRD and the Paramount dvd is the extra few seconds in the opening scene (which I understand was already available in some Italian versions), correct? (if that's the case, then there is no way I am purchasing the BRD just for a few seconds extra that are available on YouTube anyway)

2. Until I read the article you posted, I was never fully aware of all the different versions of OUATITW. Specifically, I wasn't aware of the different ending music (ie. that the film ends with Farewell to Cheyenne though Leone  intended it to end with the Finale music).

After reading that article in full, (remind me where it is from?) I realize for the first time how badly the ending music is screwed up (the other changes [ie. the brief moments cut from the opening scene and the addition of Harmonica Rising] don't really bother me), but the difference in ending music is terrible. One way I try to console myself and tell myself it ain't so bad is that the Cheyenne  music begins once the end credits begin to roll, after the movie is already "over," so it's not really changing the movie, just the credits music. But the truth is, I know it's just a lame attempt to console myself; it is a HUGE screwup    >:(

how many fucking times can studios screw this up before they finally realize YOU DON'T MESS WITH THE WORK OF A MASTER. all of the Once Upon a Time trilogy was screwed by the studios. sons of fucking bitches  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(


The weird thing is if you watch the 1995 italian "long cut" they use another messed up ending that uses a "freeze frame" (referenced in the video watchdog article). Even the italians got it wrong. I wonder if the original italian dvd or vhs or laserdisc has the "proper" ending. Or if there's still a film print out there somewhere.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 07, 2011, 04:58:02 PM
how many fucking times can studios screw this up before they finally realize YOU DON'T MESS WITH THE WORK OF A MASTER. all of the Once Upon a Time trilogy was screwed by the studios. sons of fucking bitches  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

What he said  ;D

Anyways, I received my BD and briefly viewed a few scenes. For the purists, they should have included a lossless mono soundtrack instead of a lossy DD mono track. However, the DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 track sounds really good.

The PQ is very nice. I'd like to compare it with the Mondo DVD with restored video in terms of color timing, etc. My region free DVD player broke down recently so the comparison will have to wait until I get a new one so I can view the Mondo DVD on my 46" LCD.

I presume the Italians will eventually release this version on BD. Then I can make an edit with the proper ending spliced onto the end of the English version.

Overall, this is still a great release despite the screwed up ending.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 07, 2011, 05:17:34 PM
The weird thing is if you watch the 1995 italian "long cut" they use another messed up ending that uses a "freeze frame" (referenced in the video watchdog article). Even the italians got it wrong. I wonder if the original italian dvd or vhs or laserdisc has the "proper" ending. Or if there's still a film print out there somewhere.


but aside from the opening scene, the Scorcese version is identical to the Paramount dvd?


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 07, 2011, 05:55:40 PM
but aside from the opening scene, the Scorcese version is identical to the Paramount dvd?

Yes, I have not watched them side by side, but I am reasonably certain.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 07, 2011, 06:05:19 PM
What he said  ;D

Anyways, I received my BD and briefly viewed a few scenes. For the purists, they should have included a lossless mono soundtrack instead of a lossy DD mono track. However, the DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 track sounds really good.

The PQ is very nice. I'd like to compare it with the Mondo DVD with restored video in terms of color timing, etc. My region free DVD player broke down recently so the comparison will have to wait until I get a new one so I can view the Mondo DVD on my 46" LCD.

I presume the Italians will eventually release this version on BD. Then I can make an edit with the proper ending spliced onto the end of the English version.

Overall, this is still a great release despite the screwed up ending.

That is, IF the italians release it with the proper ending. Their LAST version (the longer "what Leone intended" cut) was wrong...still the "freeze frame" ending


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 07, 2011, 09:39:23 PM
That is, IF the italians release it with the proper ending. Their LAST version (the longer "what Leone intended" cut) was wrong...still the "freeze frame" ending

Hi Jordan,

I need some clarification because maybe I'm misinterpreting the article you scanned. How exactly is the film supposed to end? In the Italian DVDs, the "finale" score ends as you see Harmonica ride off in the distance with Cheyenne's body in tow. Then the frame freezes and the credits begin with Cheyenne's theme. It ends the same way in both the Mondo and CVC extended DVDs. I have the 1st release DVD by CVC as well but I'll have to check that later.

Interestingly, despite having different cuts of the film, the CVC and Mondo DVDs appear to be from the same source. The blemishes on the film are identical throughout. (Clearly, there was no further restoration of the video by Mondo despite their claims.)

Here's an example; see the white blotch on the right?

CVC extended DVD:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/trailerparkboy/CUVIWCVCDVD1995.png)

Mondo "restored" DVD:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/trailerparkboy/CUVIWMondoDVD.png)


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 08, 2011, 02:06:41 AM
As I understand it, there are three versions of the opening (waiting for the train)- 1. the original u.s. premiere cut before it was edited 2. the slightly trimmed down cut after paramount butchered the rest (which up to the Scorcese restoration was the cut we all know) and 3. the 1995 italian "long" cut which has even more footage than #1.

It's my belief that the new blu-ray cut restores 39 seconds to make it the opening from #1. People are saying Scorcese arbitrarily chose new shots to be included after looking at #3, but I think they just found an existing print of #1. and used that opening. (we don't have anything from the #1 cut to compare that to though, so I'm theorizing, but to me that makes the most logical sense - I can't see Scorcese making ANY decisions on Leone's behalf).

After reading the Watchdog article I'm sure that the German theatrical version (apart from the exit music) is the same as the Italian release version and the original US premiere . I have retained a TV version of this after I realised that there was something missing on the Paramount DVD. I had compared the versions and posted it already somewhere in this forum:

The first scene is in # 1 about 70 sec longer than # 2 (the Paramount) and #3 adds another 30 sec to it.

If Sorsese wanted to restore # 1, he has done only half of the job. And of course he should have skipped the Rising scene and restore the audio of the closing scene.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 08, 2011, 06:06:17 AM
That is, IF the italians release it with the proper ending. Their LAST version (the longer "what Leone intended" cut) was wrong...still the "freeze frame" ending


But that's a different freeze frame endiing. The freeze frame in the 177 min version comes at the same moment as the Paramount DVD fades into black.

The wrong freeze frame ending in one of the US versions comes before Harmonica comes back into the frame riding past with the dead body of Cheyenne on another horse. And the freeze frame was only used for one of the short versions to avoid confusion cause Cheyenne's death scene was cut.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 08, 2011, 06:57:56 AM
Hi Jordan,

I need some clarification because maybe I'm misinterpreting the article you scanned. How exactly is the film supposed to end? In the Italian DVDs, the "finale" score ends as you see Harmonica ride off in the distance with Cheyenne's body in tow. Then the frame freezes and the credits begin with Cheyenne's theme. It ends the same way in both the Mondo and CVC extended DVDs. I have the 1st release DVD by CVC as well but I'll have to check that later.


The way the video watchdog article describes it, the credits roll over the shot of H and C riding off into the distance, the shot ends at the end of the finale music. It goes to black, the paramount logo comes up and then the reprise of Cheyanne's theme continues over black for 2:32 seconds.

So, the proper version will have NO freeze frame, and Cheyennes music should never be over picture of any kind, only black as "exit music". 



Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 08, 2011, 07:01:02 AM
After reading the Watchdog article I'm sure that the German theatrical version (apart from the exit music) is the same as the Italian release version and the original US premiere . I have retained a TV version of this after I realised that there was something missing on the Paramount DVD. I had compared the versions and posted it already somewhere in this forum:

The first scene is in # 1 about 70 sec longer than # 2 (the Paramount) and #3 adds another 30 sec to it.

If Sorsese wanted to restore # 1, he has done only half of the job. And of course he should have skipped the Rising scene and restore the audio of the closing scene.


Ah, I stand corrected, thanks for the clarification. I did not have a version like that to compare it to. I wish it had been that simple but I guess now we have (4) different versions of the opening!!?


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 08, 2011, 07:06:20 AM
But that's a different freeze frame endiing. The freeze frame in the 177 min version comes at the same moment as the Paramount DVD fades into black.

The wrong freeze frame ending in one of the US versions comes before Harmonica comes back into the frame riding past with the dead body of Cheyenne on another horse. And the freeze frame was only used for one of the short versions to avoid confusion cause Cheyenne's death scene was cut.

Fair enough, the music is probably right, but the credits then roll too late and the Cheyenne music should be over black. Both are wrong anyways...although with the music playing out as it should this one is probably the least erroneous. 


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 08, 2011, 08:39:31 AM
These are the new additions to the Scorsese cut vs. the last U.S.A paramount dvd cut:

The Scorsese adds just two shots to the opening (before rising) and extends a third. After the train has arrived and the train guy throws the parcel off, there are a few shots, then Woody Strode smiles over at Jack Elam.

1. There is a NEW shot of Jack Elam smiling back
2. then a NEW shot of him drumming on his gun. A FLY buzzes around his hand. :) In the italian version we hear a fly buzz on this shot, here it's not there (or not as prevalent)
3. It then cuts back to the C.U. shot of Elam where he leaves frame although the beginning of that is EXTENDED and has him shaking his head before he motions to leave with a tilt of his head (and then leaves frame as in the U.S. cut).

This is similar to a sequence of shots in the extended Italian version except the long Italian version has an extra shot of the train, then an extra shot of Elam (before the holster tapping shot) in between those 3 shots.

The RISING scene now has a couple extended shots.

4. When Harmonica brings his arm over to sling it, the beginning of that shot is now extended to show him moving parts of his jacket around first.
5. The last shot of the scene is also extended -he puts his gun in the bag and then the extended shot holds on his boots walking off frame (the U.S. cut ends with him picking up his bag)

This is exactly how the rising scene plays out in the extended italian cut.

6. Just before the the CU shot of the father at the well, the daughter turns to react to the cicadas going quiet - her reaction is a second longer in the Scorsese cut (this seems odd but I checked it multiple times) The italian cut also has the extra second.
7. Paramount logo comes up 2 or 3 seconds later at the end of the Scorsese cut

Total new footage added : 19-21 seconds. (depending if you count the new black before the paramount logo at the end- which I am)

NO other differences from beginning to end, I checked the whole thing. So they must be counting the new title card at the beginning as part of the 39 seconds- it is 18 seconds including the black between it and the paramount logo. That puts the count at 39ish seconds (close enough to 39 to have it make sense I think - I did not do exact frame counts)

So really we got 19 seconds of new footage, not 39. Why that particular 19 seconds was chosen is a mystery to me.

***EDIT - the Scorsese cut also fixes (removes) the title overlap of "a sergio leone film" onto the shot of woody strode in the existing paramount version***

Stanton, what is the sequence with the new Jack Elam cuts in the german tv version - does it cut like the Scorsese cut as I described or does it have the additional P.O.V. of the train in between those cuts like the longer italian version?


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 08, 2011, 09:25:49 AM
Great info, JK. We're a few steps closer to determining the differences between the 2 cuts.  O0


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on June 08, 2011, 12:30:24 PM
Wow, JK, good work. You have infinitely more patience than I do. O0


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 08, 2011, 12:33:12 PM
The way the video watchdog article describes it, the credits roll over the shot of H and C riding off into the distance, the shot ends at the end of the finale music. It goes to black, the paramount logo comes up and then the reprise of Cheyanne's theme continues over black for 2:32 seconds.

If that's the case, I actually prefer the ending of the Italian DVDs. The magnificent panoramic shot from Jill serving the crew to H and C riding off into the distance would be significantly obstructed by the rolling credits. I'm quite happy to have Cheyenne's theme play during the rolling credits immediately after the screen freezes, which happens after the "finale" has ended and the title is gone.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 08, 2011, 12:39:26 PM
revised and modified my original post to list a couple more small differences. (page 7)


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 08, 2011, 12:41:07 PM
If that's the case, I actually prefer the ending of the Italian DVDs. The magnificent panoramic shot from Jill serving the crew to H and C riding off into the distance would be significantly obstructed by the rolling credits. I'm quite happy to have Cheyenne's theme play during the rolling credits immediately after the screen freezes, which happens after the "finale" has ended and the title is gone.

I hear what you're saying. The music is the most important thing and at least they got that right. Paramount did not...


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 08, 2011, 12:57:22 PM


So, the proper version will have NO freeze frame, and Cheyennes music should never be over picture of any kind, only black as "exit music". 



Yeah, but that's the 177 min, which is not the theatrical version. It doesn't make much of a difference for me, but the Paramount has it right (except for the audio), and it is better left off any DVD. The film should end with the last tone of the Finale.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 08, 2011, 01:01:38 PM
Yeah, but that's the 177 min, which is not the theatrical version. It doesn't make much of a difference for me, but the Paramount has it right (except for the audio), and it is better left off any DVD. The film should end with the last tone of the Finale.

No, I'm referring to the 165 min U.S. premiere cut as described in the video watchdog article. (page 5 of that article)


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 08, 2011, 01:08:26 PM
Oh yes, my mistake. I referred to the quote by Honest Farmer in your post. Stupid form me, as you had already answered it.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 08, 2011, 01:19:26 PM
No worries Stanton! Did you see my question to you in the differences list on page 7 about the german version?


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 08, 2011, 01:29:26 PM
These are the new additions to the Scorsese cut vs. the last U.S.A paramount dvd cut:

The Scorsese adds just two shots to the opening (before rising) and extends a third. After the train has arrived and the train guy throws the parcel off, there are a few shots, then Woody Strode smiles over at Jack Elam.

1. There is a NEW shot of Jack Elam smiling back
2. then a NEW shot of him drumming on his gun. A FLY buzzes around his hand. :) In the italian version we hear a fly buzz on this shot, here it's not there (or not as prevalent)
3. It then cuts back to the C.U. shot of Elam where he leaves frame although the beginning of that is EXTENDED and has him shaking his head before he motions to leave with a tilt of his head (and then leaves frame as in the U.S. cut).

This is similar to a sequence of shots in the extended Italian version except the Italian version has an extra shot of the train in between those 3 shots.

The RISING scene now has a couple extended shots.

4. When Harmonica brings his arm over to sling it, the beginning of that shot is now extended to show him moving parts of his jacket around first.
5. The last shot of the scene is also extended -he puts his gun in the bag and then the extended shot holds on his boots walking off frame (the U.S. cut ends with him picking up his bag)

This is exactly how the rising scene plays out in the extended italian cut.

6. Just before the the CU shot of the father at the well, the daughter turns to react to the cicadas going quiet - her reaction is a second longer in the Scorsese cut (this seems odd but I checked it multiple times) The italian cut also has the extra second.
7. Paramount logo comes up 2 or 3 seconds later at the end of the Scorsese cut

Total new footage added : 19-21 seconds. (depending if you count the new black before the paramount logo at the end- which I am)

NO other differences from beginning to end, I checked the whole thing. So they must be counting the new title card at the beginning as part of the 39 seconds- it is 18 seconds including the black between it and the paramount logo. That puts the count at 39ish seconds (close enough to 39 to have it make sense I think - I did not do exact frame counts)

So really we got 19 seconds of new footage, not 39. Why that particular 19 seconds was chosen is a mystery to me.



Stanton, what is the sequence with the new Jack Elam cuts in the german tv version - does it cut like the Scorsese cut as I described or does it have the additional P.O.V. of the train in between those cuts like the longer italian version?

Yes it is in. For this sequence the Paramount is indeed pretty rushed.

The 177 min adds a panning shot along the train and another close up of Elam just before the shot with Elam tipping at his holster.

Scorsese has restored the superfluous Rising scene. Incredible ...


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 08, 2011, 01:52:33 PM
Yes it is in. For this sequence the Paramount is indeed pretty rushed.

The 177 min adds a panning shot along the train and another close up of Elam just before the shot with Elam tipping at his holster.

Scorsese has restored the superfluous Rising scene. Incredible ...

You're right, I missed the other cu in the italian cut and have revised my post. The fact that the old german cut (which is for arguments sake the "original" cut of the opening scene) has these 3 new Scorsese shots in proper sequence without the two Italian added shots in between gives me hope that they found and used another "original" cut as a basis for the restoration...but then why doesn't it include the rest of the original cut of the opening sequence...very very strange, unless Scorsese himself said "I like those 3 shots from the original cut, let's leave those in and dump the rest." Or perhaps there was print damage or lost negative for the other shots? I wish there was somebody to contact for this sort of thing...

And it is funny that the rising scene is now LONGER :) instead of gone...



Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Novecento on June 08, 2011, 01:57:01 PM
And it is funny that the rising scene is now LONGER :) instead of gone...

LOL  ;D

Good work by the way JK. When I finally get to watch my copy I'll know exactly what to look out for!


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 08, 2011, 02:09:49 PM
Yes, very good work Jordan.



Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 08, 2011, 02:14:01 PM
I actually found what I believe to be a version of the "original 1968 cut" on youtube - this is a german dubbed version, with Turkish subtitles, but it is definitely not the same cut as either the paramount or the italian longer version - it HAS the 3 new Scorsese shots in the right sequence, it DOES NOT have the rising scene AND the end plays out the music properly and does not freezeframe!

Opening segment with more shots then U.S. but less then italian (which we know to be the formula for the "original" cut) - the new shots in this cut match exactly what the video watchdog article describes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxW0eKr-brE&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

end of opening segment - NO rising scene (new Scorsese shots are at :48 seconds)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9kxMs_4m4g&feature=channel_video_title

end title:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu1OXkyt1Kw&feature=relmfu

This person actually has the whole cut posted...






Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 08, 2011, 03:10:10 PM


6. Just before the the CU shot of the father at the well, the daughter turns to react to the cicadas going quiet - her reaction is a second longer in the Scorsese cut (this seems odd but I checked it multiple times) The italian cut also has the extra second.




Just checked it. Exactly the same as in the German version.
Without this sec the scene ends too abruptly. But one will hardly notice unless he knows.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 08, 2011, 03:22:12 PM
A wealth of info in the latter pages of this thread. This is great!

Keep up the good work.  ;)


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 08, 2011, 03:23:07 PM
Just checked it. Exactly the same as in the German version.
Without this sec the scene ends too abruptly. But one will hardly notice unless he knows.

Right, the paramount version actually cuts on her second blink which is awkward (I'm an editor by trade, so one of the golden rules is don't cut on an eye blink). That extra second, minute as it is, is a better cut.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 08, 2011, 03:29:15 PM
A wealth of info in the latter pages of this thread. This is great!

Keep up the good work.  ;)

Thanks, glad it's appreciated, but I have to admit, I do most of this for me, I have an insatiable thirst for this kind of detective work! If there's ever a blu-ray released of the italian cut, I will personally use that and the U.S. cut to restore the film to its original premiere cut. I have the equipment to do it... (add the proper shots to the opening sequence, delete the rising, fix the ending...the tricky part will be the end and where to source that from - but even today I found a version of that on youtube...so it's out there...somewhere...


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 08, 2011, 03:37:28 PM
Thanks, glad it's appreciated, but I have to admit, I do most of this for me, I have an insatiable thirst for this kind of detective work! If there's ever a blu-ray released of the italian cut, I will personally use that and the U.S. cut to restore the film to its original premiere cut. I have the equipment to do it... (add the proper shots to the opening sequence, delete the rising, fix the ending...the tricky part will be the end and where to source that from - but even today I found a version of that on youtube...so it's out there...somewhere...


Very interesting

How's about cutting a few min out of My Name Is Nobody and creating thereby a better balanced film?


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 08, 2011, 04:01:40 PM
Thanks, glad it's appreciated, but I have to admit, I do most of this for me, I have an insatiable thirst for this kind of detective work!

As long as you share the wealth, it's all good!  :D


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 08, 2011, 04:03:27 PM


Very interesting

How's about cutting a few min out of My Name Is Nobody and creating thereby a better balanced film?

I'd love to see that too, but I'd shy away from making my own judgements on Leone's work and doing a fan edit. I'd rather just restore a film like OATITW to its original glory. Same with FAFDM, another Leone film that's never gotten the proper version released. As well as the original american cut of GBU in HD. I think OATITW would actually be the easiest of all 3 to do...


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: T.H. on June 09, 2011, 10:13:14 AM
I finally watched it in its entirety and I'm less disappointed with the transfer, though the exterior scenes look a little soft and it didn't have the depth I'd expect. I obviously don't have a clue as to how the original print looked like, so there's no reference which to compare.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 09, 2011, 04:38:47 PM
I'm pretty sure this was shot in Techniscope so they are limitations to the film format.

What is the source of the German theatrical presentation on youtube? I assumed it was an old 4:3 TV recording but after comparing it to the BD it's close to 2.35:1. The sides are cropped a bit and yet the image still seems squeezed horizontally.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 09, 2011, 04:50:32 PM
I'm pretty sure this was shot in Techniscope so they are limitations to the film format.

What is the source of the German theatrical presentation on youtube? I assumed it was an old 4:3 TV recording but after comparing it to the BD it's close to 2.35:1. The sides are cropped a bit and yet the image still seems squeezed horizontally.

Ya, I don't know the source but it seems like a 16x9 (1:78/1:85) version, which is not quite right but better than 4:3..definitely a completely different film print just based on the titles alone (I'm pretty sure the most recent German DVD of the film was just the paramount version with subtitles (not actual German film titles) Based on all the little pieces of evidence I really do think it represents the original cut (minus the German dubbing and Turkish subtitles of course:)


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 09, 2011, 04:59:50 PM
Ya, I don't know the source but it seems like a 16x9 (1:78/1:85) version, which is not quite right but better than 4:3..definitely a completely different film print just based on the titles alone (I'm pretty sure the most recent German DVD of the film was just the paramount version with subtitles (not actual German film titles) Based on all the little pieces of evidence I really do think it represents the original cut (minus the German dubbing and Turkish subtitles of course:)

I believe you're right although I don't have a copy of the previous German Paramount DVD release to confirm.

It seems the image has been stretched vertically (maybe by youtube to fit it's viewing screen?) so I did some rough editing of a screenshot. I compressed the image vertically and the aspect ratio is approximately 2.05:1.

Unedited screenshot:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/trailerparkboy/OUATITWfaceunedited.jpg)

Vertical compression of above screenshot:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/trailerparkboy/OUATITWfacecompressedvertically.jpg)

There's roughly about this much info missing from image (shown as white bars):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/trailerparkboy/OUATITWfacecompressedwhitebars.jpg)


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 09, 2011, 05:25:19 PM
My PC is broke, and at the moment I have only one which is ok for surfing in the net, but not for much more. Apparently I can't watch that YouTube videos.

Don't know where they got that German version from. Maybe from Pay TV, maybe it is somehow the "official" Turkish version, but I doubt that, cause normally countries which don't dub use English speaking prints.

All German DVDs are the same Paramount as everywhere outside Italy.
Early German VHS releases used the German theatrical version, but I think for the Laserdisc the English version was used for the first time, and since then VHS re-releases used also the English version.

On TV we have meanwhile either the German version, or the 177 min version, for which the German dub was changed for a few lines.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 09, 2011, 05:33:50 PM
Could this be the source?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/trailerparkboy/spielmirdasliedvomtod159minLD01.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/trailerparkboy/spielmirdasliedvomtod159minLD02.jpg)

159 min runtime; widescreen

Amazon lists a VHS tape released by CIC Video GmbH with the following description:

Spiel mir das Lied vom Tod - Original Kinoformat - ca. 158 Minuten - Original Videocassette (google translation: Once Upon a Time in the West - Original cinema - approx. 158 min...)


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 09, 2011, 05:47:56 PM
No, the Laserdisc uses as far as I know the English version. It was the first time the Rising scene was included in Germany.

The original German version was most likely released only on the early VHS tapes, but is still sometimes shown on TV.

Well, meanwhile the Paramount version and the long 177 min version are so present that most people assume it is a cut version if the Rising scene is not included.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 09, 2011, 06:00:47 PM
The German theatrical version on youtube is definitely widescreen so it must be from either a DVD or LD unless a widescreen VHS was released as well (doubt it). Since the Paramount DVD used the English version with German dub the only source left is the widescreen LD. Of course, I could be wrong.  :-\


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 09, 2011, 08:29:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMdh71ngeoA

someone posted this link (I think it may have been somewhere on these boards a while back) and said that this is the "full" opening scene. can someone who has seen the Scorcese opening scene (and/or understands Italian) tell me if this version is indeed the Scorcese one? Thanks


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 10, 2011, 02:38:04 AM
The German theatrical version on youtube is definitely widescreen so it must be from either a DVD or LD unless a widescreen VHS was released as well (doubt it). Since the Paramount DVD used the English version with German dub the only source left is the widescreen LD. Of course, I could be wrong.  :-\

There were widescreen versions on VHS, but I don't know if the theatrical cut was amongst them. But as I said there were widescreen versions on Pay TV without any logos (unlike the Free TV showings).

But in the end it is not very important from which source it came.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 10, 2011, 06:14:43 AM
There were widescreen versions on VHS, but I don't know if the theatrical cut was amongst them. But as I said there were widescreen versions on Pay TV without any logos (unlike the Free TV showings).

But in the end it is not very important from which source it came.

It could have also been a very early vhs that didn't correct aspect ratio, for instance I have one of those for thx1138 - comes in a "clamshell" big ugly plastic box, but the whole movie is in vertically stretched (4x3) widescreen.

Stanton when you are able to, obviously it would be great if you could check this version against your german tv cut..


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 10, 2011, 06:28:00 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMdh71ngeoA

someone posted this link (I think it may have been somewhere on these boards a while back) and said that this is the "full" opening scene. can someone who has seen the Scorcese opening scene (and/or understands Italian) tell me if this version is indeed the Scorcese one? Thanks

This is the 177 min Italian version created in 1995. While it is the longest version available, (and fun to watch because of that) most would agree it's not exactly what Leone intended (as the origin of this cut is still a bit cloudy.) What Leone intended (and released in 1968) is (I personally believe) what I recently posted as links to a youtube german cut that uses a lot of these extra shots (but not all). If you compare the two "longer" versions of the opening, you'll see that the shots that *only* the Italian version has that the other versions don't are of little importance. (in my opinion)


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 10, 2011, 07:51:28 AM
Early German VHS releases used the German theatrical version, but I think for the Laserdisc the English version was used for the first time, and since then VHS re-releases used also the English version.

I was digging for more info and came across a discussion (http://forum.cinefacts.de/67801-spiel-mir-das-lied-vom-tod.html) from 8 years ago. I used Google to imperfectly translate and one of the posts confirms what you say:

"The described CIC-VHS version (reissue) of it that is absolutely identical to the U.S. laser disc and the simultaneously published German laser disc from Philips / CIC. And it is this version ran just before the publication of the LD's also on Dutch television. It looks rather as if whether exactly this version is the international version and the German theatrical version of the unexplained reasons for this short scene Bronson (rising) was reduced at the beginning ..."


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 10, 2011, 12:33:08 PM
I have just read it too.
There is another post which says that the Laserdisc is cut for 70 sec in the first scene. And that's what I have assumed. When the releases became digital, Paramount used one master for all worldwide, and that was their restored but faulty version from 1984. And since then all VHS releases in Germany were taken from this master.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 10, 2011, 01:12:57 PM
not sure why some of you seem to prefer the Rising scene not be included. Is it cuz a) you actually believe Leone did not want that scene included; b) you just think it is superfluous; or c) cuz it conflicts with you opposition to the stdwd theory  :P


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 10, 2011, 01:28:03 PM
I think it's superfluous.

After watching the German theatrical cut on youtube, I think it just works better with the straight cut to the McBain's rifle and showing later on at the roadhouse that H survived.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 10, 2011, 01:31:25 PM
I know some people say the Rising scene is only necessary  if the trading post scene is cut. However, Leone shot the Rising scene for a reason (and I am sure the reason is NOT that he was expecting the trading post scene to be cut)


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 10, 2011, 01:44:52 PM
I wrote this in response to someone on the criterion board, but as it's relevant I thought I'd share it here...

Quote from: Nothing
Quote from: Lighthouse
If you take the 177 min version as proof, than you should also take it as proof for Leone wanting the first scene much longer.
This is assuming that Leone's print corresponded to the 177m rough cut - I don't think we can assume that.

But I think all of this basically comes back to the question of the titles. Were the optical English language titles on the current version created in 1969 or in the early 1980s? If we can answer that, the rest will probably fall into place.

The titles themselves do not appear over any unique shots in ANY version. That is to say, neither the german cut nor the 177 min italian cut has a title over a new shot that is not in the paramount cut. Of course, there are differences in placement within the frame (Claudia Cardinale credit appears on a different side of frame in german titles), and the italian 177 min has slightly different timings (Jack Elam title is over 2 shots instead of one). It might be that Paramount simply removed shots that didn't have titles on them, thus they didn't have to redo any opticals. Also because the sequence has no music, they would have been easy lifts to make.

There is one strange thing that could be evidence of tinkering in the 80's - the Paramount cut has an odd overlap from the first title (over black background-"a sergio leone film") into the next shot of Woody strode and his hat - the "sergio leone film" title continues over that shot for about two frames - which looks to me like a mistake. This exists in the paramount cut only- the italian and german differ by having a different shot altogether (Al mulloch) after that credit, but there is no overlap.

I don't know enough about optical printing to really lean one side or the other, but I'm doubtful the overlap on that shot was intentional, or that Paramount would create a new optical in 1969 just to do that..

***EDIT*** just checked and the overlap of "a sergio leone" film title over the shot of woody strode in the scorsese cut has been removed - looks like they noticed that too!



Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 10, 2011, 01:46:29 PM
I know some people say the Rising scene is only necessary  if the trading post scene is cut. However, Leone shot the Rising scene for a reason (and I am sure the reason is NOT that he was expecting the trading post scene to be cut)

It is mainly because I think teh film loses some of its narrative quality in the first 40 min because:

1. It is indeed superfluous and it is not very remarkable the way it is filmed. (But not a bad scene either)

2. Without the scene comes a direct cut from Woody Strode crushing down to the close-up of McBain's shotgun which then blazes. A beautiful cut to connect the 1st with the second scene and similar to the harsh cut from Fonda's shooting gun to the shrieking of the train which connects the 2nd with the 3rd scene.

3. Without the Rising scene you don't know what had exactly happened as it seems that all 4 which were introduced to us are dead or could be dead. And remember that at the end of the 2nd scene the whole McBain family, to which we were introduced for several minutes, got shot too. It is very daring and irritating that you don't know for over 20 min what had happened to Harmonica, and for even a much longer time what the film could be about. And I like this unusual way to tell a story very much.

4. Without the Rising scene the moment of Harmonica's 2nd appearance in the film which reveals that he is still alive (remember Bronson wasn't a star back then) is much more fascinating. When you for so long don't know what happened in the first scene the eerie Harmonica sound out of the dark and the thrown lamp which brings his face into the light is much more effective.

Believe me, if you have seen and enjoyed OUTW for 20 years without the Rising scene, it is very disappointing to see it now in. It destroys some of the greatness of the long and slow beginning. Somehow the including of this scene really bugs me.
Especially that I'm meanwhile very sure that it was never part of the original theatrical versions, and it is only there because Paramount made some mistakes, and because if once a scene becomes part of a film, it seems impossible to get rid of it again.

(And about the Ghost theory, I never understood why there should be a difference for this theory with or without this scene.)




Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 10, 2011, 01:53:51 PM
1. It is indeed superfluous and it is not very remarkable the way it is filmed. (But not a bad scene either)

2. Without the scene comes a direct cut from Woody Strode crushing down to the close-up of McBain's shotgun which then blazes. A beautiful cut to connect the 1st with the second scene and similar to the harsh cut from Fonda's shooting gun to the shrieking of the train which connects the 2nd with the 3rd scene.

3. Without the Rising scene you don't know what had exactly happened as it seems that all 4 which were introduced to us are dead or could be dead. And remember that at the end of the 2nd scene the whole McBain family, to which we were introduced for several minutes, got shot too. It is very daring and irritating that you don't know for over 20 min what had happened to Harmonica. And I like this unusual way to tell story very much.

4. Without the Rising scene the moment of Harmonica's 2nd appearance in the film which reveals that he is still alive (remember Bronson wasn't a star back then) is much more fascinating. When you for so long don't know what happened in the first scene the eerie Harmonica sound out of the dark and the thrown lamp which brings his face into the light is much more effective.

Believe me, if you have seen and enjoyed OUTW for 20 years without the Rising scene, it is very disappointing to see it now in. It destroys some of the greatness of the long and slow beginning. Somehow the including of this scene really bugs me.
Especially that I'm meanwhile very sure that it was never part of the original theatrical versions, and it is only there because Paramount made some mistakes, and because if once a scene became part of a film, it seems impossible to get rid of it.

(And about the Ghost theory, I never understood why there should be a difference for this theory with or without this scene.)



This is a great, well-thought out explanation. As Cheyenne (and Monco before that) said..."bravo". It also helps that I've now seen it in context without (on that youtube clip I posted). Although I still think it's weird that it's referenced (in one book only I admit) as being present in "Leone's cut", and I like the scene on it's own...but it would be a better and more (Leone) accurate film without it.



Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 10, 2011, 03:35:14 PM

Just for another kick in the version teeth...I have a german 8mm print of small selected scenes from OATITW (unfortunately it's so hodge podge edit wise it's not really useful for reference) from the 70's...and its titles in the opening scene are in a different spot and size within the frame yet again (different from italian, german or english). Because it's officially licensed, I suppose they must have had access to a version with no titles and perhaps added their own to fit within the 8mm space, but they are animated...so maybe not. Unfortunately it only features these three shots from the opening.

Anyways, check it out here:

http://jordankrug.com/Screening_Room/leone2/west8mmtitles.mov

I also have some 8mm films of F.O.D. and F.A.F.D.M if anyone is interested in seeing them for fun...


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 10, 2011, 04:41:08 PM
I also have some 8mm films of F.O.D. and F.A.F.D.M if anyone is interested in seeing them for fun...

YES!


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 11, 2011, 12:21:39 PM
Here's the torrent link for the German theatrical cut on youtube: CLICK HERE (http://extratorrent.com/torrent/693109/Spiel+mir+das+Lied+vom+Tod+German+viD.html)


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 12, 2011, 03:08:47 AM


Stanton when you are able to, obviously it would be great if you could check this version against your german tv cut..

OK, I have solved my Adobe problems.

Of course it is the complete German version for the first scene. No further cuts.

I'm not sure if the 30 sec we got more in the 177 min version will make it drag, but I doubt that much people who compare the Paramount and the German version will then prefer the short Paramount one.
With the Rising scene it is different, now that all have seen it as part of the film, I'm sure many would complain if further DVDs or BRs won't have it. Even if imo superfluous, people will like the scene how it is shot and will prefer it as part of the film. Not all who are used to it, but many.

But at the moment I think that we will maybe never get another version than the Paramount and the long Italian one.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 13, 2011, 11:39:59 AM
Here's the torrent link for the German theatrical cut on youtube: CLICK HERE (http://extratorrent.com/torrent/693109/Spiel+mir+das+Lied+vom+Tod+German+viD.html)

I couldn't get any seeds for this, were you able to download the movie file?


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on June 13, 2011, 01:38:09 PM
Robert Harris has some interesting comments here: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/forum/thread/312163/a-few-words-about-once-upon-a-time-in-the-west-in-blu-ray

If you scroll down you'll see photos of the packaging of the deluxe German version (similar to the deluxe German DVD). Wow, those krauts really love "Play Me the Song of Death."


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 13, 2011, 02:47:53 PM
Yep, and they know how to sell it ...


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 13, 2011, 02:49:30 PM
Robert Harris has some interesting comments here: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/forum/thread/312163/a-few-words-about-once-upon-a-time-in-the-west-in-blu-ray

If you scroll down you'll see photos of the packaging of the deluxe German version (similar to the deluxe German DVD). Wow, those krauts really love "Play Me the Song of Death."

Thanks for posting. That german set looks cool, but I'm not sure there's enough there in terms of extra content that's truly about the film...even some rare photos without all that "dirty paper" treatment would have been nice.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 13, 2011, 02:54:48 PM
I couldn't get any seeds for this, were you able to download the movie file?

Yes, it's a 750MB file and it took 3 days to download. It was very slow going and then the download rate shot through the roof. If you're not having any luck getting I'm happy to share it with you.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 13, 2011, 04:04:58 PM
Yes, it's a 750MB file and it took 3 days to download. It was very slow going and then the download rate shot through the roof. If you're not having any luck getting I'm happy to share it with you.

Sent you a pm thanks!


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Paulo on June 14, 2011, 04:56:38 AM
Amazon have a UK relelase date of Sept 5th for this.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Once-Upon-Time-West-Blu-ray/dp/B003BEDT7I/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1308048794&sr=8-7 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Once-Upon-Time-West-Blu-ray/dp/B003BEDT7I/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1308048794&sr=8-7)


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on June 14, 2011, 09:26:51 AM
Amazon have a UK relelase date of Sept 5th for this.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Once-Upon-Time-West-Blu-ray/dp/B003BEDT7I/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1308048794&sr=8-7 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Once-Upon-Time-West-Blu-ray/dp/B003BEDT7I/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1308048794&sr=8-7)
No Zippo lighter? No cheesy harmonica? No green-felt-lined box?

How did they ever win the war?


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Shatterstar on July 28, 2011, 12:42:51 PM
All that's missing now is a Duck You Sucker Blu-ray release.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 13, 2012, 10:03:46 PM
All that's missing now is a Duck You Sucker Blu-ray release.

well the audio on the MGM Special Edition dvd of DYS is, from what I have read, absolutely atrocious. I never realized anything wrong cuz I never saw the origianl version of it, but from what I've read from people who have seen the original, this one is terrible. DVD Beaver says it is "quite probably the most screwed up remaster I've come across." (about 1/3 down the page, under "Audio Quality," at this link http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/dvdreviews23/a_fistful_of_dynamite.htm
I never noticed anything wrong until I read from people who saw the original, or at least other versions that are different. So whenever they do come out with a blu ray of DYS, I sure hope that they do it right, with the proper audio.
(Sometimes I feel that ignorance is bliss; I enjoyed Leone's movies so much more when I had no idea about studio cuts and proper versions and correct audio cues, etc. I just enjoyed the movie for what it was and that's it. I think I have seriously come to regret knowing too much about all this stuff; people like us who really know about this shit can never be happy  ;)


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 13, 2012, 10:22:56 PM
I actually found what I believe to be a version of the "original 1968 cut" on youtube - this is a german dubbed version, with Turkish subtitles, but it is definitely not the same cut as either the paramount or the italian longer version - it HAS the 3 new Scorsese shots in the right sequence, it DOES NOT have the rising scene AND the end plays out the music properly and does not freezeframe!

Opening segment with more shots then U.S. but less then italian (which we know to be the formula for the "original" cut) - the new shots in this cut match exactly what the video watchdog article describes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxW0eKr-brE&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

end of opening segment - NO rising scene (new Scorsese shots are at :48 seconds)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9kxMs_4m4g&feature=channel_video_title

end title:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu1OXkyt1Kw&feature=relmfu

This person actually has the whole cut posted...


Thanks for this link.

Having just watched OUATITW again with the commentary for the first time in a long time, (I like to space out my viewings of Leone's movies so that no movie ever gets old  ;) ), I am doing a bit more research on the various versions of the movie.

I have a few questions which I hope someone here can answer:

1) Is this the the Italian version of the opening scene that you are referring to, which you say is even longer than this German version with the Turkish subtitles? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-B_IDihfEk  

2) I see there are a few lines of dialogue by the station master; can someone please translate them into English?

3) Which version of the opening scene is shown on The "Scorcese Version" on the American blu-ray -- is it the German one, the Italian one, or some other?

4) And between these various versions, are all the shots that were removed from the opening scene in original theatrical release version restored? or are there any shots from that scene still missing?


5) I recall reading that in addition to the extra shots in the opening scene, the Scorcese Version also has a few extra shots in another scene, but I forgot which one. Does anyone know where the extra shots in the Scorcese Version occur, besides for the opening scene?

6) Finally, In the Scorcese Version, does the end remain 100% identical (ie. the shots, the title, the music) to the Paramount R1 dvd?


Thanks to anyone that can answer at least some of these questions!



Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on May 14, 2012, 05:51:36 AM


1) Your link features the long Italian 177 min version.

2) All dialogue scenes are in the Paramount version.

3) Some other, longer than Parmount, shorter than the original theatrical version.

4) Theatrical version is about 70 sec longer than Parmount, but 177 min version adds another 30 sec.

5) Rising scene is now as long as in the 177 min version and there is one extra sec in the second scene. Most likely the Paramount master was faulty at that point.

6) Not sure about the titles, otherwise yes


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 14, 2012, 06:43:09 AM

1) Your link features the long Italian 177 min version.

2) All dialogue scenes are in the Paramount version.

3) Some other, longer than Parmount, shorter than the original theatrical version.

4) Theatrical version is about 70 sec longer than Parmount, but 177 min version adds another 30 sec.

5) Rising scene is now as long as in the 177 min version and there is one extra sec in the second scene. Most likely the Paramount master was faulty at that point.

6) Not sure about the titles, otherwise yes

Thanks for this.

when you say "177 minutes," do you mean "165 minutes"? The Paramount R1 dvd is 2 hours 45 minutes  ie. 165 minutes. 177 minutes would be 12 minutes longer than the Paramount R1 dvd


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on May 14, 2012, 02:16:19 PM
Thanks for this.

when you say "177 minutes," do you mean "165 minutes"? The Paramount R1 dvd is 2 hours 45 minutes  ie. 165 minutes. 177 minutes would be 12 minutes longer than the Paramount R1 dvd

Yes, 12 min longer.

Mmmh, why should I mean 165 when I write 177? I don't understand waht you mean. The Paramount runs 165 min, the long version 177 min, the original theatrical version also 165 min (without the exit music)


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 31, 2012, 03:58:42 PM
I just got the Br disc, and noticed that when they give you the option to play either version, then options read "RESTORED VERSION" and "THEATRICAL VERSION."

1) Is the version they call the "theatrical version" actually the exact same version as the Paramount R1 dvd?


2)  (based on Jordan Krug's earlier posts), I understand that beginning with the moment where Frank's men walk out of the brush, the two versions are exactly identical, correct? I just wanna watch the extra moments in the Scorcese version, so I just want to make sure I can shut it off once the whole McBain family is killed, correct?

3) Is the picture quality identical between the two versions of the movie on the BR?


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 01, 2012, 02:37:25 AM
I just got the Br disc, and noticed that when they give you the option to play either version, then options read "RESTORED VERSION" and "THEATRICAL VERSION."

1) Is the version they call the "theatrical version" actually the exact same version as the Paramount R1 dvd?


2)  (based on Jordan Krug's earlier posts), I understand that beginning with the moment where Frank's men walk out of the brush, the two versions are exactly identical, correct? I just wanna watch the extra moments in the Scorcese version, so I just want to make sure I can shut it off once the whole McBain family is killed, correct?

3) Is the picture quality identical between the two versions of the movie on the BR?

1) Yes

2) Yes

3) Should be different as Scorsese used a different master. Which means the film must be completely twice on the disc. You can check that by ripping the disc.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 01, 2012, 02:40:30 PM
Considering Scorcese's great interest in Leone's original works, I can't understand why he left the Harmonica Rising scene in there.

But truth is, I am sure that he did not have final say on what would be released; probably all he could do was give Paramount his print of the movie and allow them to use it how they wished. If they had removed that Rising scene, then the what they call the "restored version" actually would have been shorter than what they call the "theatrical version." And if Paramount was trying to use this new "restored version" as a way of selling Blu Ray discs, it wouldn't be a great advertisement to say "buy this disc for the new restored version -- which is SHORTER than the original!"



Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: cigar joe on June 01, 2012, 04:09:28 PM
its interesting to note however that Scorsese's version has the "rising scene".


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 01, 2012, 04:14:41 PM
its interesting to note however that Scorsese's version has the "rising scene".

Didn't Leone himself give Scorcese that print? If so, wouldn't that prove that Leone in fact did want the Rising scene in there?
(That scene never bothered me as much as it seems to have bothered others around here. But if Leone didn't want it in the final cut, then of course it shouldn't be there).


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Novecento on June 01, 2012, 09:51:45 PM
Didn't Leone himself give Scorcese that print? If so, wouldn't that prove that Leone in fact did want the Rising scene in there?

Good question.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 02, 2012, 02:24:35 AM
Scorsese wanted to restore the theatrical version. He did not.
I have never read anything about that he got a version from Leone. And what a version should that be? Another one with the wrong closing music?

I don't understand why he reinserts only 18 of the 70 sec of the first scene, and I don't understand why he even extends the Rising scene instead of dropping it completely.



Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 02, 2012, 07:58:58 PM
it's this Scorcese interview where he says Leone gave him a print of OUATITW http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=1302.msg156535#msg156535

of course, I have no way of knowing whether or not this is the same print that is the "restored version" on the blu ray disc.

(btw, in STDWD, Frayling says that when Robert De Niro was deciding whether or not to accept Leone's offer to appear in OUATITW, Scorcese gave De Niro his prized print of OUATITW to watch. Again, I'd guess it was the same print Leone gave him. Who knows....)


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on June 03, 2012, 02:45:46 AM
it's this Scorcese interview where he says Leone gave him a print of OUATITW http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=1302.msg156535#msg156535

of course, I have no way of knowing whether or not this is the same print that is the "restored version" on the blu ray disc.



I don't know either of course, but I doubt that there was another version nobody knows about.

And if Scorsese wanted to restore the film in its best possible quality he must have gone back to the Italian master, and not one of the later generation prints, which all have a considerably loss of quality .


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Novecento on June 03, 2012, 07:24:54 AM
In Frayling's "Once Upon a Time in Italy" there is an interview with Scorcese when he also mentions his own personal print. He says it rarely gets it out to keep it in pristine condition.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 10, 2012, 08:03:19 PM
What's the deal with the end music on the blu ray disc: both the "theatrical version" and the Scorcese version? Is it identical to the wrong end music on the Paramount dvd, or have they put the correct end music on? I'm sure this has been answered somewhere earlier here, but if someone has a quick answer so that I don't have to go digging through all these pages, I'd appreciate it... I was just looking at Beaver's OUATITW page http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/dvdcompare/onceuponatimeinthewest.htm and on the section that begins "NOTE: Thanks to Daniel in email..." he says that the correct music was used for the ending on the blu ray. Based on what I recall reading a while back somewhere on these boards, Beaver is unfortunately wrong, but I just want to confirm it.


[Beaver needs to fix up his shit. His site is a great idea but it is not always accurate, they often say shit like "we are working on figuring out X" and then don't follow up, and it's difficult to find a single paragraph without typos. He needs to get his shit together.
 and btw, Beaver seems to love 5.1 audio re-mixes; I haven't seen anyone here bash him on it, which surprises me considering what I know y'all think of those re-mixes]


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on July 11, 2012, 02:41:32 AM
As far as I know, all the stuff sold by Paramount has the same wrong music at the end.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Amaze on October 26, 2013, 04:22:53 PM
Beaver says the bluray is region free. Can anyone confirm this?


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: chris on October 30, 2013, 03:41:22 AM
All the reviews I've seen say that the Blu-ray is region free and my disc certainly plays in a region B player.

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Once-Upon-a-Time-in-the-West-Blu-ray/7740/#RegionCoding (http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Once-Upon-a-Time-in-the-West-Blu-ray/7740/#RegionCoding)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Once-Upon-Time-Blu-ray-Region/dp/B003BEDT7I (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Once-Upon-Time-Blu-ray-Region/dp/B003BEDT7I)

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/4910/once_west.html (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/4910/once_west.html)

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/dvdcompare/onceuponatimeinthewest.htm (http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/dvdcompare/onceuponatimeinthewest.htm)



Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: chris on November 07, 2013, 12:16:43 PM
Euro International Films are to release Blu-rays of Giù la testa and C'era una volta il west in Italy on Dec 5, 2013.

http://www.amazon.it/...Giù la testa (http://www.amazon.it/dp/B00G2UUUM0/?tag=bluraycom0c-21)

http://www.amazon.it/...C'era una volta il west (http://www.amazon.it/dp/B00G2UUU7U/?tag=bluraycom0c-21)

Hopefully we'll find out more details in due course.

 


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 08, 2013, 02:31:01 AM
Has any blu-ray of OUATITW ever been released, other than the American Paramount version?


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on November 08, 2013, 05:58:48 AM
The Paramount Blu was released worldwide, except Italy. It seems that this Blu is the first Italian Blu of it.

Amazon.it lists it with a 160 min running time, which would be the Pal length of a 167 min version. Only that Blus don't hae a Pal length. But the new DVD is listed with the same runtime. T

This could be the 165 min version plus the exit music, or the 165 min version plus the Rising scene.
But most likely it is wrong and the Blu will contain the for Italy usual 178 min version.

Btw I just had a small discussion with a German who claims to have seen in the early 80s in Italy already a longer version of OUTW . He does not know how long this version exactly was, but he is sure that it contained at least the long travelling shot before CC leaves the train and the scene with Ferzetti playing with his toy soldiers. The 2 most distinctive scenes of the long version.
But it did not contain the Rising Scene, which he, just like me, first saw on German TV in 1998, when the 178 min version premiered there.

He thinks that the Italian theatrical version has a runtime of 175 min, just like it is mentioned in some books. Well, other books list OUTW with 168 min.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 08, 2013, 01:00:33 PM
so it's the same thing as the US Paramount one?

In other words, no matter how much of a fan (or "completist") I may be, there's no point in getting this new Italian blu-ray if I already have the US Paramount one?

RE: run times: Listed run times are as likely to be inaccurate as accurate. I never trust a word about listed run times; the only way to know is when you actually play the movie in your blu-ray player; or if you check a site like DVD Beaver, which actually lists the real run time and aspect ratio, rather than repeating what it says on the box.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on November 09, 2013, 05:20:57 AM
so it's the same thing as the US Paramount one?



Possible but unlikely.
They won't use the Paramount master (why should they), from which many say that the colors are wrong. At least the colors were so far pretty different from what was released in Italy.

If it's the shorter version it probably contains the 70 missing sec from the first scene and will have the correct closing music. But I doubt that they will skip the rising scene.

But, as I already said, despite the listed runtime I expect them to release the long version again. Unless they only have the rights for the theatrical version.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: Walton on October 30, 2014, 01:45:08 AM
A friend sent me this - might have been posted somewhere here already, but it's pretty funny:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hozPPVLpRQE&feature=share


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on October 30, 2014, 03:26:37 AM
Ha ha, amazing ...

It even works pretty well if one understands German.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: dave jenkins on October 30, 2014, 10:50:29 AM
A friend sent me this - might have been posted somewhere here already, but it's pretty funny:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hozPPVLpRQE&feature=share
;D ;D ;D I enjoyed that a lot. Also I liked getting confirmation that many on this board are Nazis (Commu-nazis, nicht wahr?).


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 30, 2014, 01:05:37 PM
A friend sent me this - might have been posted somewhere here already, but it's pretty funny:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hozPPVLpRQE&feature=share

good stuff.

two little changes I'd suggest:

firstly, the opening moments, with the guy pointing to the map, just doesn't fit well with the subtitles announcing the BRD. They could easily make it fit by changing the subtitles to discuss which territories the new BRD is being released in. if it says, eg. "The new Region 1 BRD, released in Country X ..." that would fit perfectly with the pointing to the map.

And secondly, HOW COULD HITLER FORGET TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE COMMENTARY? Alex Friggin Cox inventing a continuity problem that doesn't exist (IDIOT!); John Carpenter using all his time to say either, "That must be a screen" or "Caludia is beautiful" or "I haven't watched the movie lately"; and some idiot taking a piece of an interview of John Milius that had nothing to do with OUATITW ( it's him describing how Leone asked him to work on the script for OUATIA but ... I DIDN'T HAVE TIME SO I COULDN'T DO IT ;D NOT fit it i his schedule to work with Leone) and slapping that on there as a supposed bit of "commentary."

Oh well, I guess that down in that bunker, Hitler didn't have time for commentaries.

anyway ....

yeah, good stuff  O0


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on October 30, 2014, 01:14:55 PM
It is common knowledge that Hitler never listened to any audio commentary. Maybe he knew that most are a slight waste of our time, and that it is better to spare the time to watch another film.

Hmm, his justified anger reminds me a bit on Rumpelstiltskin ...


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 30, 2014, 01:17:28 PM
well he was right not to listen to the commentary-by-committee on OUATITW.

Commentaries may often be a waste of time, but there are a few exceptions. Anything with Frayling is great. Eddie Muller has some great noir commentaries. I recently listened to Roger Ebert's commentary on Casablanca, it is great.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: stanton on October 30, 2014, 01:24:46 PM
Yes, some are good. Maybe even the majority. But I mostly don't have the time to listen to them.
I also don't care much for all that bonus material on the discs. But then the bonus material is too often really a waste of time.

Frayling's commentary for OUTW was disappointing. He often describes only what I see on the screen instead of contributing something original. That was a not expected negative surprise. But I like his books very much.


Title: Re: 'West' blu ray May 31
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 30, 2014, 03:05:19 PM


Frayling's commentary for OUTW was disappointing. He often describes only what I see on the screen instead of contributing something original. That was a not expected negative surprise. But I like his books very much.

yes I've heard some people complain about that RE: his OUATITW commentary.

I don't really remember, I only watched the commentary on OUATITW once, that commentary-by-committee was awful – even when the individual speakers are good, the commentaries that are pieced together from individuals speaking separately are crap. Having multiple people sitting together in the same room, so they are interacting with each other, that is fine. I have listened to all his other commentaries many times – actually, CoR only once; but FOD, FAFDM, GBU, and DYS I've listened to each of them many times, and they are all great.