Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => Once Upon A Time In America => Topic started by: 4stars on June 03, 2004, 09:24:03 PM



Title: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: 4stars on June 03, 2004, 09:24:03 PM
I have no idea if this is true or a bunch of BS, but just of a curiosity - is it true that Mario Puzo originally asked Sergio Leone to direct The Godfather?  And despite the offer, Sergio Leone turned it down, this way he could work on his masterpiece - Once Upon A Time In America......?


Title: Re:The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: DJIMBO on June 04, 2004, 03:06:48 AM
very true 4stars.

sergio refused because he didnt think puzo's story was up 2 much and because he wanted to avoid Italian gangsters and focus on Irish and Jews.
He also wanted to devise hiw own story and not be controlled by a novel.


Title: Re:The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: mortimer on June 04, 2004, 11:43:44 PM
I think it all worked out pretty well! I wouldnt change either movie.


Title: Re:The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: David Aaronson on October 03, 2004, 06:07:38 AM
very true 4stars.

sergio refused because he didnt think puzo's story was up 2 much and because he wanted to avoid Italian gangsters and focus on Irish and Jews.
He also wanted to devise hiw own story and not be controlled by a novel.
But later, after having seen the movie, he regretted his decision.

Anyway, I think it's for the best, because now there are three (Godfather I & II, OUATIA) gangster movies that stand out above all others and are among the best movies ever made, instead of possibly just one.

As for the question in the title, if I'd had to choose between the Godfather and Once Upon..., I'd have to go for the Godfather. (With pain in my heart, of course.)


Title: Re:The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: DJIMBO on October 03, 2004, 06:25:40 AM
i think OUATIA is artistically superior - Leone's editing and directorial flair stands out above Coppola's, but in terms of a great drama and story The Godfather wins, and it probably has better actors and characters development as well. But if we're analysing it as a trilogy i think OUATIA is better because the third isnt quite as good.

As one critic said (forgive me i cant remember who):

"The Godfather is a great movie, Once Upon a Time in America is a great film".


Title: Re:The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: grandpa_chum on October 03, 2004, 10:56:43 AM
is there any evidence that he regretted the decision aaronson? I mean if he doesn't like the story about italian gangsters on paper i bet he didn't like the story about italian gangsters on film... i personally love OUATIA and don't much care for the godfather... i don't know... i just see it as the dances with wolves of gangster movies... people love it and wanna call it a gangster movie, but it really does suck... OUATIA beats it in everyway and as for saying the the godfather wins in great drama and story and character developement, you must not have seen OUATIA... i mean those are all the things i believe america crushes the godfather into submission.

I don't want to sound like a leone worshipper... because i'm not... but maybe if i hadn't seen OUATIA before the godfather i could like it more... america is just too high a standard i guess.


Title: Re:The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: David Aaronson on October 04, 2004, 03:20:25 AM
is there any evidence that he regretted the decision aaronson? I mean if he doesn't like the story about italian gangsters on paper i bet he didn't like the story about italian gangsters on film... i personally love OUATIA and don't much care for the godfather... i don't know... i just see it as the dances with wolves of gangster movies... people love it and wanna call it a gangster movie, but it really does suck... OUATIA beats it in everyway and as for saying the the godfather wins in great drama and story and character developement, you must not have seen OUATIA... i mean those are all the things i believe america crushes the godfather into submission.

I don't want to sound like a leone worshipper... because i'm not... but maybe if i hadn't seen OUATIA before the godfather i could like it more... america is just too high a standard i guess.
It says so on IMDB, that's all I know. The information on that site is usually reliable. I bet his regrets also had to do something with the fact that at the time he saw The Godfather, he still hadn't been able to get his own project made.

As for the Godfather... It's a story about innocence being corrupted by familybonds, about the impossibility of the American Dream, about a man who tries to do what he believes is good but ends up failing miserably, and about so much more... And it's much more than just a gangster movie.
The fractured and ambiguous story of OUATIA is geniusly told, but because of its ambiguity and fractured storyline, the emotional impact is less than the story of the Godfather. At least, to me it is.

As for better actors... I truly believe that the ensemble cast of Marlon Brando, Al Pacino, Robert Duvall, Talia Shire, James Caan, John Cazale, Sterling Hayden, Richard Castellano, Diane Keaton, Abe Vigoda, Al Lettieri and many more great actors is, as a whole, a better cast than the cast of OUATIA.


Title: Re:The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: DJIMBO on October 04, 2004, 03:53:36 AM
is there any evidence that he regretted the decision aaronson? I mean if he doesn't like the story about italian gangsters on paper i bet he didn't like the story about italian gangsters on film... i personally love OUATIA and don't much care for the godfather... i don't know... i just see it as the dances with wolves of gangster movies... people love it and wanna call it a gangster movie, but it really does suck... OUATIA beats it in everyway and as for saying the the godfather wins in great drama and story and character developement, you must not have seen OUATIA... i mean those are all the things i believe america crushes the godfather into submission.

I don't want to sound like a leone worshipper... because i'm not... but maybe if i hadn't seen OUATIA before the godfather i could like it more... america is just too high a standard i guess.

sorry grandpa_chum but ive gotta disagree with u there and im afraid i have seen OUATIA. I think the development of the Michael and Vito Corleone characters is pulled off better than the development of Noodles.

Overall, yeah, i feel OUATIA is better stylistically, artistically and i think its more distinctive, but im not gonna say it beats The Godfather in every department just because im a Leone fan, because it doesnt.


Title: Re:The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: grandpa_chum on October 04, 2004, 10:17:49 AM
you guys make some great points... and maybe i need to see the godfather a few more times... but i still believe that OUATIA is far and away a better film.


Title: Re:The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: THE BIG MAN on October 04, 2004, 10:19:29 AM
i think OUATIA is artistically superior - Leone's editing and directorial flair stands out above Coppola's, but in terms of a great drama and story The Godfather wins, and it probably has better actors and characters development as well. But if we're analysing it as a trilogy i think OUATIA is better because the third isnt quite as good.

As one critic said (forgive me i cant remember who):

"The Godfather is a great movie, Once Upon a Time in America is a great film".

When the Godfather came out it was a huge hit, critics loved it, made everyone a star, won oscars, book was a bestseller, parts one and two followed, as did a tv bestseller version,everyone quotes the lines, the films are never off the tv-in a way the whole Godfather thing became a bit overwhelming in the same way as Titanic. Most people I speak to admire the Godfather (artistically) OUATIA on the other is a film that people love! Despite the subject matter OUATIA is a beautiful film, original, complex, ambiguous, fascinating and brilliant. Its a film that has really only been discovered through cable,video and dvd-it has a mythical and mystical quality that the Godfather lacks. This is why (in my opion) OUATIA has the edge.


Title: Re:The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: Two Kinds of ... on November 06, 2004, 01:48:46 PM
I think Godfather 1 + 2 , Once Upon a Time in America and Miller's Crossing are the best Gangster movies of the last 40 years and possibly of all time.   I have no knocks on the first two GF's or MC and only a small quibble with McGovern in ...America, but it really is small compared to the enormity of the masterpiece.

Goodfella's is in 5th place - questionable third act.  


Title: Re:The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: Film-Junkie Zach on November 11, 2004, 11:47:54 AM
Both Great Gangster Epics!!


Title: Re:The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: grandpa_chum on November 12, 2004, 05:34:23 PM
my biggest problem with the godfather and miller's crossing and even goodfellas... is that i hate every gangster movie i've ever seen... for some reason i love OUATIA, maybe i just can't appreciate a good gangster epic when i see one.


Title: Re:The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: dave jenkins on November 12, 2004, 09:21:55 PM
my biggest problem with the godfather and miller's crossing and even goodfellas... is that i hate every gangster movie i've ever seen... for some reason i love OUATIA, maybe i just can't appreciate a good gangster epic when i see one.

Maybe the problem is that gangsters are not admirable and that movies that try to make them attractive can only do so by being dishonest about the kind of people they are. You can only enjoy a film like Godfather if you like Michael, but sons of real Godfathers are never likeable.

The strength of OUATIA is that you don't have to like the gangsters in it to enjoy the film.


Title: Re:The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: noodles_leone on November 13, 2004, 12:27:39 PM
leone has never regretted the choice of doing ouatia. He only said that he regretted to have refused to do the godfather, because he could have done something great, especially with the second one. I think he told that to a french journalist, probably one of the cahiers du cinema, i'll have to check (i have the cahiers du cinema in which he has been interviewed)... or may be in noel simsolo's book "conversation with sergio leone". But i'm pretty sure he was speaking to a french...


Title: Re:The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: Two Kinds of ... on November 13, 2004, 02:05:58 PM
Leone is a better director than FFC.  Though he's pretty much better than everyone, as great as the first two Godfather's are, they would have looked better with Sergio calling the shots.

I love the Gangster movie genre and if you aren't comfortable with moral relativism, I could see where you wouldn't like it.


Title: Re:The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: John Baldwin on November 14, 2004, 07:03:40 AM
leone has never regretted the choice of doing ouatia. He only said that he regretted to have refused to do the godfather, because he could have done something great, especially with the second one. I think he told that to a french journalist, probably one of the cahiers du cinema, i'll have to check (i have the cahiers du cinema in which he has been interviewed)... or may be in noel simsolo's book "conversation with sergio leone". But i'm pretty sure he was speaking to a french...
It's not in Conversation with Leone, which is a good book...  ;)


Title: Re:The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: Belkin on November 14, 2004, 10:48:15 AM
Never can decide between THE GODFATHER or OUATIA. Both of them add so much to cinema that they could be/and are used as yardsticks.
To be honest, my favorite "mafia/organised crime" movie of all time is the much neglected ERNEST BORGNINE starrer from 1960 titled PAY OR DIE. An excellent piece of work directed by RICHARD WILSON. Would love to get hold of a DVD copy. Maybe i'll ask Santa!


Title: Re:The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: Two Kinds of ... on November 14, 2004, 12:16:27 PM
Never can decide between THE GODFATHER or OUATIA. Both of them add so much to cinema that they could be/and are used as yardsticks.
To be honest, my favorite "mafia/organised crime" movie of all time is the much neglected ERNEST BORGNINE starrer from 1960 titled PAY OR DIE. An excellent piece of work directed by RICHARD WILSON. Would love to get hold of a DVD copy. Maybe i'll ask Santa!
I've never seen it, but Borgnine really tends to bug me.  He was great in From Here to Eternity but he kills The Dirty Dozen and The Wild Bunch with his ridiculos takes and "winks" at the camera.  Ugh!  I hope he was better in Pay or Die.


Title: Re:The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: grandpa_chum on November 14, 2004, 10:49:18 PM
Maybe the problem is that gangsters are not admirable and that movies that try to make them attractive can only do so by being dishonest about the kind of people they are. You can only enjoy a film like Godfather if you like Michael, but sons of real Godfathers are never likeable.

The strength of OUATIA is that you don't have to like the gangsters in it to enjoy the film.

very good point!


Title: Re:The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: David Aaronson on November 23, 2004, 06:31:23 AM
Maybe the problem is that gangsters are not admirable and that movies that try to make them attractive can only do so by being dishonest about the kind of people they are. You can only enjoy a film like Godfather if you like Michael, but sons of real Godfathers are never likeable.

The strength of OUATIA is that you don't have to like the gangsters in it to enjoy the film.
Interesting point, but I can't totally agree with you there.
You don't have to like Michael to enjoy The Godfather. I don't like him, but he does fascinate me. As does, for instance Tony Soprano, a character which I like and severely dislike at the same time. This ambiguity is part of what draws me...


Title: Re:The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: grandpa_chum on November 25, 2004, 10:10:43 PM
that is the difference... not only do i dislike them... they disinterest me as well because to me they are shallow, pointless stereotypes... and don't take that the wrong way... i love a good deep stereotypical character... i'm no idiot... i know stereotypes are needed in many characters... these two you speak of are just not good interesting characters in my opinion


Title: Re:The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: Dlanor on November 27, 2004, 03:35:16 PM
 I think OUATIA is more emotional. It pulls sensible strings like nostalgia of chilhood, lost friendship, time wich passes. Sex also... OUTIA is more inherent to human nature. I don't feel really strong emotions when I see the Godfather, this world seems artificial to me. Anyway I should watch the Godfather again. The Godfather has more documentary ambitions than OUTIA. But I don't know, there is something in the Godfather that doesn't get me in. When I see it, I feel I'm just watching a movie and that's all. I feel the characters are more actors than charcaters, that everything is constructed. The quality of the image is sometimes questionnable, also. Even if OUTIA is not perfect, sometimes unbalanced (we don't see the attack of the bank for example), it speaks directly to the heart, to the ego, not GDF. The childood of OUTIA part justifies the movie by itself, it has something of beautiful.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: Bill Carson on January 06, 2005, 10:29:01 AM
for no reason I''d just like to say that OUATIA is and always will be far superior to The Godfather...  8)


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: RichardRoma on January 27, 2005, 10:21:16 AM
Both films are not even comparable. Once Upon a time in america although a bit unknown, it is by far a superior movie.

The Godfather was backed by a popular book, by Mario Puzo, OUTIA also based on a book, didn't actually had the publicity that the Godfather films had.

Remember also, that OUATIA is a film about Jewish gangsters, and as we know the Jewish religion in this country is very powerful.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: 4stars on January 27, 2005, 08:23:52 PM
Remember also, that OUATIA is a film about Jewish gangsters, and as we know the Jewish religion in this country is very powerful.
  I'm not 100 percent sure what you were trying to say right there, but it kinda sounds as though you believe in the classic stereotype that Jews own hollywood.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: RichardRoma on January 28, 2005, 05:03:27 PM
Im not saying it, it is a fact.

This film didnt get a sole nomination, it was omitted from the academy awards. Probably because the shortened version wasn't that good but everywhere in the world this film was seen as a masterpiece.

Leone had an standing ovation after seeing the movie in one of the film festivals over in europe I can't recall which one was.

But If you think this is bashing the jewish people, it is not, as you may know the Jewish community in the United States is a very successful comunity. They are very well economically, they have tremendous connections all around.

This film shows that there are some rotten apples in between them, probably they were insulted as the Italian American community was when the Godfather came out.

This movie is the best gangster movie ever existed, and probably one of the best in Film history. It just didn't get the popularity and the attention that should have had.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: dave jenkins on January 30, 2005, 11:07:38 PM
I think we're straying a bit off topic, and so, in an attempt to steer us back on course....

The Godfather isn't worthy to change the bed pans of OUATIA. TG is a fundamentally dishonest film. It follows the standard loss-of-innocence template, the one where the audience is supposed to feel keenly the protagonist's fall from grace.

Trouble is, this movie is about a gangster's son. His very existence is grounded in corruption, and we're supposed to believe that a gangster's son can begin life in a state of innocence? If Puzo/Coppola had given us a gangster's son modeled on the real children of such people, the movie as it exists would not have been possible. So instead, they gave us Michael, the mafia boy with a heart of gold, a creature that has never existed on this or any other planet. And then they invite us to luxuriate in a sense of loss when Michael abandons his "earlier principles" and puts on the mantel of his gangster father. Oh, the cruel irony!

OUATIA takes an entirely different approach. It assumes that people who grow up to be gangsters don't start out as altar boys (temple boys?). It also assumes that gangsters act like gangsters, even in their dealings with other gangsters. It is axiomatic that hoods betray their friends, and OUATIA uses this fact to explore themes regarding male bonding and betrayal important to Leone. In an amazing feat of narrative construction, we witness the revelation that an old act of betrayal by one character was in fact a carefully manipulated act of betrayal by another. Then we see the wronged buddy, after learning the truth, *declining* the opporturnity for revenge. Oh, Noodles, what a shame you couldn't do a Michael and have your enemies ritually murdered through a bit of bravura film editing!

One of the things that haunts OUATIA is the sense of a life wasted. Leone accomplished this in large measure through his use of fractured chronology; we get both the sense of a lifetime passing and of the fact that most of that lifetime, except for what is retained in memory, is gone for good. And memory, Noodles discovers, is unreliable. There are not many old gangsters, but we get an idea what such a character might be like when we watch OUATIA. And none of us, I'm sure, would want to trade places with Noodles.

This is not how one feels at the end of The Godfather. Rather, one feels the calculated twinge evoked by the filmmakers ("Oh, no, Michael, you've lost your soul!") immediately followed by the idea that, if you've got to be a Godfather, you might as well be the biggest, baddest Godfather you can ("I wish *I* could murder people I hate, and with as much style! Can't wait for the sequel!!")

So the difference between TG and OUATIA, I submit, is the difference between art and kitsch.



Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: DJIMBO on January 31, 2005, 02:23:11 AM
ive always thought that as well dave jenkins but you can see why that kind of story is more popular with the masses because its a more, dare i say it, dramatic fall from grace, whereas we know pretty much where Noodles' life is heading. But thats not the beauty of OUATIA, ive always thought the storyline was pretty arbitrary.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: Cusser on January 31, 2005, 07:45:21 AM
I think Dave Jenkins' response above is right on the nose.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: General Sibley on January 31, 2005, 10:47:42 AM
Im not saying it, it is a fact.

But If you think this is bashing the jewish people, it is not, as you may know the Jewish community in the United States is a very successful comunity. They are very well economically, they have tremendous connections all around.

Roma is right on target.  I believe this is mentioned in  Protocol #27 in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"  ::)


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: General Sibley on January 31, 2005, 10:48:59 AM
I think we're straying a bit off topic, and so, in an attempt to steer us back on course....

The Godfather isn't worthy to change the bed pans of OUATIA. TG is a fundamentally dishonest film. It follows the standard loss-of-innocence template, the one where the audience is supposed to feel keenly the protagonist's fall from grace.

Trouble is, this movie is about a gangster's son. His very existence is grounded in corruption, and we're supposed to believe that a gangster's son can begin life in a state of innocence? If Puzo/Coppola had given us a gangster's son modeled on the real children of such people, the movie as it exists would not have been possible. So instead, they gave us Michael, the mafia boy with a heart of gold, a creature that has never existed on this or any other planet. And then they invite us to luxuriate in a sense of loss when Michael abandons his "earlier principles" and puts on the mantel of his gangster father. Oh, the cruel irony!

OUATIA takes an entirely different approach. It assumes that people who grow up to be gangsters don't start out as altar boys (temple boys?). It also assumes that gangsters act like gangsters, even in their dealings with other gangsters. It is axiomatic that hoods betray their friends, and OUATIA uses this fact to explore themes regarding male bonding and betrayal important to Leone. In an amazing feat of narrative construction, we witness the revelation that an old act of betrayal by one character was in fact a carefully manipulated act of betrayal by another. Then we see the wronged buddy, after learning the truth, *declining* the opporturnity for revenge. Oh, Noodles, what a shame you couldn't do a Michael and have your enemies ritually murdered through a bit of bravura film editing!

One of the things that haunts OUATIA is the sense of a life wasted. Leone accomplished this in large measure through his use of fractured chronology; we get both the sense of a lifetime passing and of the fact that most of that lifetime, except for what is retained in memory, is gone for good. And memory, Noodles discovers, is unreliable. There are not many old gangsters, but we get an idea what such a character might be like when we watch OUATIA. And none of us, I'm sure, would want to trade places with Noodles.

This is not how one feels at the end of The Godfather. Rather, one feels the calculated twinge evoked by the filmmakers ("Oh, no, Michael, you've lost your soul!") immediately followed by the idea that, if you've got to be a Godfather, you might as well be the biggest, baddest Godfather you can ("I wish *I* could murder people I hate, and with as much style! Can't wait for the sequel!!")

So the difference between TG and OUATIA, I submit, is the difference between art and kitsch.



Wow...  Bravo Dave, very nicely done.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: cigar joe on January 31, 2005, 04:17:21 PM
Bravo Dave!


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: cedet on February 06, 2005, 05:30:25 AM
Yep DAve, good Shot

OUATIA is an Emotional Film.
TG is a MAfia biographie.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: cedet on February 06, 2005, 05:37:35 AM
Furthermore, OUATIA a about "inocence corrupted" and the TG is about filaition and what to do with his inheritance. More over, OUATIA is a Greek Tragedy, and TG is more a "simple" Mafia movie.
OUATIA has a bigger Emotionnal Dimension, based on 2 characters (De Niro and Woods)
The Godfather is a familly story lead by Pacino.

Finally these movie can't be campared because their purpose are totally different.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: Dirty Politician on February 08, 2005, 04:48:42 PM
The Godfather is a GREAT film. Of that there can be really no question. But for me OUATIA is the greatest film ever made.
I think it all comes down to FEELING over substance. And Leone's films, coupled with Morricone's score, are all feeling.
The scene as De Niro walks back into his old life after decades away and wistfully remembers his past are stunning shot and simply beautiful. And the powerful ending as he confronts Woods finally is suitably heart-stopping.
The Godfather doesn't carry such poignant moments. It is just a strong film from start to finish, wonderfully acted with a powerful tale to tell.
OUTIA on the other hand has you riding the gaunlet of emotions from start to finish. We should loathe Noodles and yet the old man at the end evokes our pity, despite the henious crimes of his past. Only Leone can pull that off and OUATIA is his masterpeice.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: The Smoker on February 09, 2005, 02:41:12 AM
Nice one Dave, very good analysis.
Coppola had a self-procliamed thorn in his side. He aledgedly said 'he didn't want to do well (win oscars) at Films based on novels. He wanted make real cinema, he wanted to be a Auteur.'
 
Roma is right on target.  I believe this is mentioned in  Protocol #27 in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"  ::)

Ahh the 'Protocols of Learned Elders of Zion' Love a good Russian fairytale at bedtime now and again.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: Poggle on March 02, 2005, 05:55:45 PM
The Godfather:

(http://www.etceteraweb.com/Art/DaVinci/21-DaVinci-last-supper.jpg)

OUATIA:

(http://www.artlex.com/ArtLex/c/Images/cenacle_dali.lg.jpg)

That's what I think ;)


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: 4stars on March 02, 2005, 09:03:49 PM
Poggle you have a very unique way of looking at things.  I like your interpretation, but I'm not too sure I understand it completely.  Can you elaborate on it..


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: Poggle on March 02, 2005, 10:02:34 PM
Hmm, the second image(The Salvador Dali First Supper) didn't work.

Anyway, it's the Last Supper painted by the dramatic, serious artist, Da Vinci, and then there's the mysterious surrealist painting of the Last Supper by the eccentric Dali. I kind of think of GF and OUATIA like that. Leone is the mysterious surrealist type and OUATIA is a very dreamy story with that Tolkien/mythology element of "Untold stories/less is more" to have that endless abyss of mysteries and interpretations.
Coppola's Godfather is more dramatic, structered, the story is very much in perspective, and it has more of an "opera" feeling to it than OUATIA, which is kind of ironic considering who directed OUATIA ;) OUATIA is part of Leone's American mythology and fantasy tales and GF is a dramatic portrait of an Italian-American(Not in general terms) family.

For me it's a tie in a way since I like the stories the most for the above reasons. When I'm done watching GF it's my favorite and when I'm done watching OUATIA it's my favorite. Know what I mean? So I just think of them as being in a tie.

Though I admit I find GF has a little more of an entertainment factor. I guess because it's more epic, better cast, it has Italy, and because I have three different DVD's to pop in rather than one long-assed story. I'm an Italian-American, so I guess that contributes to it. I don't relate at all to the people in OUATIA as much as I do the GF characters. If it wasn't for Leone I probably wouldn't care about the story at all, but Leone could make anything turn to gold. I don't mean to be sounding like I'm degrading it, but it's the Italian edge of GF that I find a little more appealing.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: The Firecracker on June 08, 2006, 11:17:48 PM
Oh Please! The sleep inducing film that is "The Godfather" isnt fit to shine OUATIA's boots!


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: The Peacemaker on June 08, 2006, 11:21:36 PM
Oh Please! The sleep inducing film that is "The Godfather" isnt fit to shine OUATIA's boots!

I agree. The Godfather was a great movie but OUATIA is 100 times better.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: Groggy on June 09, 2006, 07:14:45 AM
As has been pointed out, you can't really compare the two.  "The Godfather" is pretty much a straightforward gangster pic, albeit an extraordinarily well-made one, while OUATIA really isn't, it's more of a character study than a ganster film.

If you forced me to pick I'd say "The Godfather", or at least Part II.  Great casts, writing, music, direction - everything just clicks.  OUATIA has all that, but again it isn't really a gangster film per se.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: dave jenkins on June 09, 2006, 11:43:02 AM
Yes and no. Leone was honest enough not to glamorize the gangsters, so he departed from genre conventions in that respect. He presented his central character as a murderer and rapist, a loser without redeeming qualities. His most salient feature was his unlimited capacity for self deception, which allowed Noodles to dream his life away. It's a character study, sure, but one appropriate for a gangster background. There is nothing noble about those guys.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: Leone Admirer on June 13, 2006, 05:13:22 AM
I adore the Godfather, I really do but I really find OUATIA just a much more entertaining and thought provoking film.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: Tuco the ugly on June 15, 2006, 07:31:49 AM
After you've seen TG you just take the DVD out of the player and start doing something else,after you've seen OUATIA you just can't stop thinking about it,no matter if you've watched it 50 times before it...That is something only Leone's films have,the abiliy to take the film out from the screen and put it in your living room...every segment of it...brilliant!!!!!

No other film can do that so intensively,with the sounds of melancholy and sadness playing around you,inviting you to deal with it...That's Leone!!!!!


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: Groggy on June 15, 2006, 05:23:59 PM
That's a good point, Tuco.  "The Godfather" films, as good as they are, are rather blatantly commercial and not terribly complex.  In re OUATIA, however, I still haven't worked out all the plot twists satisfactorily after three complete viewings and watching certain scenes innumerable times.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: dave jenkins on June 16, 2006, 09:26:38 AM
Plot twists? I just want to know what the door motif is all about.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: The Peacemaker on June 17, 2006, 01:54:33 PM
That's a good point, Tuco.  "The Godfather" films, as good as they are, are rather blatantly commercial and not terribly complex.  In re OUATIA, however, I still haven't worked out all the plot twists satisfactorily after three complete viewings and watching certain scenes innumerable times.

It's not that difficult to follow, at least I think so. I understand everything in the movie except for one thing: the three gang members looking for Noodles in the beginning, who were they sent by? And why? That's the only thing I don't get. I always thought they were some of Frankie's men.

The surrealistic stuff like the truck at the end are not meant to be understood because they are left open for interpretation by the audience.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: J B on August 03, 2006, 02:43:11 AM
I think they're both incredible movies, but like some people have said already, they're very different.  The Godfather is a very easy movie to love.  There's a good reason why AFI rated it as the third best American film ever.  OUATIA is not an easy movie to like.  However, I think in a way it's deeper and more complex than the Godfather.  This doesn't make it better, just different.  The main thing that OUATIA has over The Godfather in my opinion is the directing.  Sergio Leone is probably my favorite director.  the reason why The Godfather was so great wasn't really because of Coppala.  granted he clearly did a great job, but his most important role was picking the cast.  A director working with that cast, that script, and that story, doesn't really have to do too much.  Plus he had Nino Rota's incredible music.

I always wonder, though, what The Godfather would have been like if Leone had directed it.  That would have been one heck of a film!

Anyway, in my opinion you guys are comparing two of the world's finest movies, and it's impossible for me to say which one is better.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: dave jenkins on August 03, 2006, 09:05:58 AM
Plus he had Nino Rota's incredible music.
Which Rota recycled from an earlier film. He knew he was doing hack work.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: J B on August 03, 2006, 11:47:09 AM
Would you really call The Godfather hack work?  I guess I'm having trouble with the fact that so many people on this forum don't really like it.  I thought everyone liked The Godfather.

By the way, have you heard the original music that Nino Rota borrowed from?  He changed it quite a bit, and it was just one of the themes.  To say that he simply recycled an old score that he had written a long time ago is completely not ccorrect.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: Tim on August 07, 2006, 11:40:21 AM
Quote
Would you really call The Godfather hack work?  I guess I'm having trouble with the fact that so many people on this forum don't really like it.  I thought everyone liked The Godfather.

  I certainly wouldn't call it hack work.  Just watched Godfather I and II last night on TCM, and I love them more than ever.  I've never been a huge fan of OUATIA, I like it but not on the same level as other Leone movies, but I'll always rank the first two Godfather movies above OUATIA.

  And just cause a movie is more "commercial" doesn't mean it can't be good.  And JB, your point about Coppola having to do the most work before filming The Godfather is right on.  He found the perfect cast, a great composer for the score, and was able to make one of the best novel-to-screen adaptations ever, thanks in great part to Puzo.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: Leone Admirer on August 08, 2006, 05:18:48 PM
I love The Godfather films, alot but I must admit to prefering OUATIA. I have great respect for FFC and I saw the Godfather before OUATIA and it blew me away but as an experience, America left a little more lasting impact on me.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: bdsproductions on May 24, 2007, 12:33:35 PM
The Godfather.

Sorry, as good as Once Upon a Time in America is, The Godfather is better.

It has a better story then Once Upon a Time in America, better acting, better everything.

Once Upon a Time America is in the top 30 movies of all time though, not dissing it, just saying The Godfather is extremly close to being the best movie ever made.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: mal247 on May 24, 2007, 01:32:06 PM
Once upon a time in America does have some flaws but if Sergio had been allowed to make the film as he really wanted, it perhaps would have gained the accolade of being the greatest film ever made.

The Godfather 1 & 2 were good but Once upon a time in America is much more than just a gangster movie - you might as well try and compare a lion to a tiger and say which one is better. Viewers will form their own opinions but Once upon a time in America touches me, because of my own experience of unreciprocated love, much more than The Godfather films ever could.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: dave jenkins on May 24, 2007, 05:21:46 PM
I can't say enough how disapointed I was with OUATIA.  I really don't think it's a good movie, and I don't undertsand people's comments that essentially say, "I didn't really enjoy the film at all, but technically it's a masterpiece".  I go to a film to enjoy myself, think about things, get a different perspective and escape.  Not to admire some film tech snobbery.
Well, yes, but OUATIA has more going for it than that. Sorry you were disappointed, but I suggest you wait and give it another try. It can really grow on you.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: bdsproductions on May 24, 2007, 06:08:52 PM
I loved it, just I found it in need of editing (love Sergio's long shots, but De Niro wandering through New York got tiresome), but, like I said before The Godfather>The Godfather: Part II>The Godfather: Part III>Goodfellas>Mean Streets>Once Upon a Time in America.


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: Kurug3n on May 26, 2007, 01:33:20 PM
This is the way i see things:

The Godfather-One of the best movies ever made but rarely can i view more than once

OUATIA-One of the best movies ever made and is very highly re-watchable

so in all OUATIA wins for me


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: cigar joe on May 26, 2007, 05:03:22 PM
what he said O0


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: Tuco the ugly on May 26, 2007, 09:18:25 PM
This is the way i see things:

The Godfather-One of the best movies ever made but rarely can i view more than once

OUATIA-One of the best movies ever made and is very highly re-watchable

so in all OUATIA wins for me


Yeah,good one Machete. O0


Title: Re: The Godfather vs. OUATIA
Post by: tucumcari bound on June 01, 2007, 08:06:07 PM
I absolutely love both The Godfather and OUATIA. It is extremely hard for me to choose what film I think is better. I love different aspects of each film better than the other. I can tell you one thing, as much as I LOVE The Godfather's Theme music, I'd have to give the edge to OUATIA's score. It just haunts me more. It's that beautiful as all of you know. Deborah's Theme! :)