Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => The Good, The Bad and The Ugly => Topic started by: johnk on January 06, 2003, 11:21:51 AM



Title: Blondie and his gun
Post by: johnk on January 06, 2003, 11:21:51 AM
Firstly I hate to knock any of these films as they are great and still very watchable.
However in the sequence where Blondie re assembles his gun in his room I notice that he uses thumb pressure
to push home the barrel wedge. This wedge normally has to be tapped home with a suitable tool for a tight fit.
Also I think at this time loose powder and ball were used
and not metallic cartridges.

Just read Christopher Fraylings ' Something to do with Death' and it bears out what I have stated above (page 210). Good biography on Sergio Leone


Title: Re:Blondie and his gun
Post by: cigar joe on January 06, 2003, 03:48:15 PM
As far as the cartriges, they were available, and there were conversions made to black powder cap and ball revolvers by gunsmiths for those who could afford the price, and if you think about it professionals who made a living with their guns would jump at the advantage converted revolvers would provide.


Title: Re:Blondie and his gun
Post by: cigar joe on January 06, 2003, 03:53:49 PM
PS, An interesting real life example of this is the recent archeological findings at the Custer battlefield, the cavalry was equipped with single shot rifles, the Souix had superior Henry Repeating Rifles, and they concluded that rather than the popular notion of a "last stand" the battle was over quickly.


Title: Re:Blondie and his gun
Post by: johnk on January 07, 2003, 02:55:34 AM
Appreciate your point ,but I thought these conversions
came after the civil war.The use of cartridges in the film
I think at this period is a bit of artistic licence.
Wild Bill Hickok was using cap and ball revolvers well
into the 1870's.


Title: Re:Blondie and his gun
Post by: johnk on January 07, 2003, 03:04:50 AM
Appreciate your point ,but I thought these conversions
came after the civil war.The use of cartridges in the film
I think at this period is a bit of artistic licence.
Wild Bill Hickok was using cap and ball revolvers well
into the 1870's.


Title: Re:Blondie and his gun (Long)
Post by: cigar joe on January 07, 2003, 04:25:20 PM
I've known gunsmiths that can do just about anything, for example a side by side shotgun was coverted to rifle and by looking at it you couldn't tell.

Here is some info off the net, you are right about production colts, but I'm sure inventive gunsmiths made their own conversions.  ;)

Catridges

Paper cartridges with a re-usable metal base were made in 1812 by Samuel Pauly, a Swiss gunsmith, in a form common still today. Metal cartridges seem to have been developed during the American civil war, whereby the casing of the cartridge became the missile itself. In 1857, Smith & Wesson were granted a patent for the .22 rimfire cartridge, having already bought the 1855 patent held by Rollin White covering a revolver with 'drilled through' chambers i.e. open at both ends. Rifling was introduced to extend the accuracy of the projectile some 90%.

This is the story of those years, the story of Smith & Wesson.

In the small town of Norwich, Connecticut, Horace Smith and Daniel Wesson opened up their first factory and began producing the lever action pistol that was nicknamed "The Volcanic" by Scientific American because of its incredible firepower and its rapid-fire capability. This pistol and this factory, were the beginning of Smith & Wesson.

In 1854, the company had unfortunate financial problems. When the company started to reorganize itself, an investor, Oliver Winchester provided funding to the company in order for it to keep producing the "Volcanic." The factory moved to New Haven, Connecticut, where Winchester had some of his holdings.

The company name changed that year to "Volcanic Repeating Arms Company." Horace Smith and Daniel Wesson sold their majority interest in the company, and while Smith returned to Springfield, Massachusetts, Wesson remained at the Winchester plant, working as the plant supervisor. While there, Wesson designed a small revolver that could shoot the cartridge that he and Smith had patented earlier in that year.

In 1856, the two men met up in Springfield and renewed their partnership. The revolver that Wesson had designed, called the Model 1 and the cartridge, called "Number One Cartridge" gained immediate popularity due to the advantages the new cartridge. The revolver/cartridge combination was so popular that by 1859 the demand for the handguns was so great that original factory couldn't keep up with the demand. A new factory had to be built. The new factory was built on Stockbridge Street, in Springfield, MA, close to the United States Armory.

The year of 1861 ushered in new era of high demand for Smith & Wesson firearms with the arrival of the Civil War. This demand quickly proved to be more than the new Stockbridge Street factory could handle.

More....

In 1856 the Smith & Wesson Co. invented the world's first metalic cartridge breech loaded revolver. This was a phenomenal breakthrough in firearms. No longer was it necessary to pack powder, wads and balls, and then install caps. Everything was in one package and needed only to be inserted into a gun. Needless to say, at the outbreak of the Civil war, the Smith & Wesson .32 caliber Revolver was in great demand. Orders for this revolutionary gun were so many that Smith & Wesson found their staff of twenty five hopelessly mired in back orders and unable to keep up with demand. At one point they were forced to stop taking new orders.
So why didn't Colt follow suit and also produce a cartridge gun? It's because Smith & Wesson owned the patent. And why didn't the United States supply the Army with this more advanced gun? As mentioned, Smith & Wesson couldn't produce them fast enough. Also, the Colts were less expensive, produced en masse, and the South had nothing better, anyway. So Colt got the contract to supply the Army. Meanwhile, the South was manufacturing their own black powder revolvers produced by Griswold & Gunnison . The frames of these revolvers were made of brass, as the South was limited in its steel resources. As a matter of fact, the good people of Macon, Georgia donated the brass bells from their churches, save one, to be melted down for cannons and guns.
During the same period Remington manufactured a cap & ball revolver which was actually a more practical weapon than the Colt, and those soldiers who could afford a Remington, bought them as their personal combat weapons. What made the Remington more desirable than the Colt was that the Remington had a top strap, making the gun stronger, and the cylinder removal and replacement system was much faster and more efficient than that of the Colt. Reloading a cap & ball pistol is a delicate, time-consuming procedure, virtually impossible under fire. Typically, soldiers armed with revolvers carried several pre-loaded cylinders so that they could replace their spent cylinder with one that was ready to fire. In this respect, the Remington was the gun of choice. Clint Eastwood, in a gun fight scene from the movie Pale Rider, gives an exemplary demonstration of replacing the cylinder on a Remington.
Speaking of the movies, those early Hollywood Westerns crack me up. What is supposed to be taking place during the post-Civil War years depicts everyone running around with Colt "Peacemakers" which weren't produced until 1873. They're also sporting Hollywood gun-slinger type rigs which never existed in the Old West! One of the most accurate representations of what Westerners actually carried is depicted in Crossfire Trail starring Tom Selleck. His side arm is the most advanced and sought-after gun of its day - a Smith & Wesson break-top revolver. I personally got all misty-eyed when, in a gunfight, Selleck pulled out his back-up gun - an old Colt conversion. And do you remember the 50's TV series, Wild Bill Hickok, starring Guy Madison? The only thing historically accurate in that show were the backwards facing guns. Guy Madison packs a pair of shiny, stag-grip 1873 Colts holstered in a fancy rig with backwards left and right holsters. That show also enlightened us with a little known historical fact. Apparently, Wild Bill Hickok palled around with a comedy-relief sidekick named "Jingles" ( Andy Devine). At any rate, the real Wild Bill Hickok carried a matching pair of beautifully engraved 1851 Navy Colts with sculptured ivory handles, which he kept tucked in his belt with the butts facing forward. They were never converted for cartridges.
But I digress. In 1870 Smith & Wesson's patent ran out. Colt immediately began converting their cap & ball revolvers to cartridge guns. Two employees of the Colt Firearms Co., Charles Richards and William Mason, obtained a patent on the means by which a cap & ball revolver could be converted to fire cartridges. The rear end of the cylinder was sawed off and the holes machined to accommodate cartridges. A loading gate was added behind the cylinder, the powder-packing lever was removed, the recess plugged, and a shell ejector added to the side of the barrel. The U.S. Army submitted their weapons for conversion. In 1870, a person could mail his black powder revolver to the Colt Factory and, for five dollars, have it converted. This was the gun that moved out West. To own a Colt Conversion is to own a unique piece of American history




Title: Re:Blondie and his gun
Post by: johnk on January 12, 2003, 11:40:26 AM
Thanks for the information.I guess that means you agree with me !


Title: Re:Blondie and his gun
Post by: cigar joe on January 13, 2003, 05:26:01 PM
Yes if we're talking about production colts, but is sounds as if conversions were available.


Title: Re:Blondie and his gun
Post by: cigar joe on January 23, 2003, 09:31:25 PM
Just caught "the Outlaw Josey Wales" the other vday on TV, after his farm gets torched he starts to practice his marksmanship with a cartridge converted Colt. It gives a good close up of it.


Title: Re:Blondie and his gun
Post by: caius on January 27, 2003, 06:32:10 AM
how do you know so much about guns, where you brought up with them? or has it just been your curisosity though the years?


Title: Re:Blondie and his gun
Post by: cigar joe on January 27, 2003, 04:56:13 PM
Hi Caius,

Most of the info on cartridges I found just searching the net, I'm not any expert.

I actually got interested in the guns from Leone's films, I grew up in New York City and did not really have much access to firearms at all, however a high school friend of mine parents owned an army surplus store and they happened to be civil war memorabilia collectors and they had a collection of various US and Confederate rifles, most is mint condition. Their crown jewel piece was a 1867 gatling gun, it was neat cranking the handel, it had a cartridge magazine that top loaded rather than the usually seen belt feed.

In college in the Adirondacks I bought a Remington New Model Army cap and ball (like Angel Eyes's). When I moved out west to Montana 1970's, guns were part of the everyday culture almost like toys. Think about it, you are 50 to 60 miles from the nearest neighbors or town. For recreation you don't have a television or a cinema or a few friends that you can get together with to play football or roundball, so you learn how to shoot varmints from long distances, you save your brass and learn how to custom re-load on a loading bench (it is very very inexpensive, you buy gunpowder by the pound, the bullets by the box and the primers by the can, you can easily load a hundred rounds in a day), You hunt deer, antelope, and elk for food, etc., etc. its a part of life still. We used to target practice just for fun and entertainment with revolvers shooting cans and bottles. By the way a good fast way to learn how to shoot and aim from the hip and actally hit somethingis to tape a lazer pointer to the barrel of the pistol, after a while it becomes instinctive.  ;)

I have a good buddy who grew up on a cattle ranch and this is pretty much his life, though now they have dish tv, and herd cattle with 4 wheelers, lol. But shooting sports are still a big thing out there. A lot of this culture rubs off on you when you are immersed in it.


Title: Re:Blondie and his gun
Post by: Mannaja on March 03, 2003, 06:47:12 PM
PS, An interesting real life example of this is the recent archeological findings at the Custer battlefield, the cavalry was equipped with single shot rifles, the Souix had superior Henry Repeating Rifles, and they concluded that rather than the popular notion of a "last stand" the battle was over quickly.

More on this; the cavalry used Springfield single shot rifles, because the military thought the men would waste ammo using repeater rifles. Also, the cartridges had faults; the casing was made of copper and after a few shots it would solder into the barrel because of the heat.


Title: Re:Blondie and his gun
Post by: Harmonica on April 02, 2003, 09:15:39 AM
Hey Joe.  The gun Josey pulls from the smokey ruins is a 1861 Navy Colt cap and ball, not a conversion... FYI

(http://users.erols.com/kcoblenz/JWgun1.JPG)
(http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/images/2569-19.jpg)

Woops, I posted a picture of the wrong gun, duh?  The one above is an Army Colt model and the one below is Josey's Navy Colt model...
(http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/images/2569-18.jpg)


Title: Re:Blondie and his gun
Post by: cigar joe on April 02, 2003, 05:36:22 PM
Sorry Harnonica take a closer look, there are no cap nipples at the end of the cylinder and it has a very obvious cartridge loading gate right above Clint's trigger finger knuckle. Aya Aya Ahhhh! 8)


Title: Re:Blondie and his gun
Post by: Harmonica on April 02, 2003, 05:56:11 PM
I posted a correction above...

You may be right Cigar?

That may explain the why the loading level and plunger are not there...

Good eye there bud... :D


Title: Re:Blondie and his gun
Post by: Harmonica on April 02, 2003, 06:01:59 PM
Now you've made me have to go and watch the movie when I get off of work...  Damb you Joe... ;)


Title: Re:Blondie and his gun
Post by: Harmonica on April 14, 2003, 06:41:07 PM
Your right Cigar Joe,  but it's only in that scene.  The rest of the movie the loading lever and plunger are visible.  So he goes from a conversion to a cap and ball, dosen't make any sence? ???

Sorry about getting off topic here....


Title: Re:Blondie and his gun
Post by: cigar joe on April 14, 2003, 06:57:46 PM
The same thing happens in GBU when Tuco puts together his custom gun in the gunshop. He puts various Colt parts together and when he clicks  and listens to the cylinder its definitely a cap and ball cylinder then he asks the proprietor for cartridges and proceeds to load a cartridge cylinder. Somebody screwd up on the continuity but its minor and would not be noticed by most people.


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: Beebs on June 06, 2005, 09:05:30 AM

Also I think at this time loose powder and ball were used
and not metallic cartridges.


I agree about the cartridges, it wasn't until about 1873 that metalic cartridges were available or at least widely available.
The movie clearly takes place during the Civil War (duh I almost feel stupid pointing it out for myself).


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: cigar joe on June 07, 2005, 04:46:23 AM
We went thru this before Beebs, they were available, S&W had then in 1852 and a lot of conversions were made to Colts by gunsmiths, somebody point this to the right thread.


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: cigar joe on June 08, 2005, 04:42:11 AM
Check this one out Beebs. http://www.riverjunction.com/kirst/history.html


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: al mullock on July 14, 2005, 04:08:31 PM
i would like to give you more informations about these guns...i m a collectioner of black powder guns replicas and i can answer to all yours technical questions ;) ;)

first of all i m sure that you knows that the blondie gun is a colt navy 1851 in a 36 inch caliber...(octogonal barrel)

the tuco s gun is a sudist copy of the colt navy 1851 because in this case the barrel is  circular.the real name of this model is "griswold an gunnison" in a 36 caliber either. historicaly the gun s frame is not in steel  but in  an alliage of "bronze" (sorry i don't know the name of the metal alliage in english")
the production bought some italian copy of the great gun  firm uberti wich was the historically speaking the first firm to produce very good quality replicas of black powder guns...(first productionstarted in 1958!!)
the guns used in the gbu are not like the original guns because as you wrote before the conversion gun appeared later after the civil war
but it was more practical to use and safer for actors... (ask benito stefanelli he was a specialist as master of weapons...)


the angel eyes gun is a remington new model army in 44 inch caliber...

the color picture of the gun in josey wales is a model of conversion "colt 1861 army" it use normal metallic cartridge

the other one are colt 1861 army . only used with black powder (cap and ball system)
the difference between the 2 models is the steel stick under the barrel for the black powder model (in french it is named "levier de chargement " or loading *levier*

and as a conclusion the 2 enormous gun of clint in the movie "josey..." are  colt walker in cal.44 the most powerful (and heavy!)percussion colt of the black powder colt history:


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: cigar joe on July 14, 2005, 04:26:58 PM
Welcome Al

Quote
tuco s gun is a sudist copy of the colt navy 1851 because in this case the barrel is  circular.the real name of this model is "griswold an gunnison" in a 36 caliber either. historicaly the gun s frame is not in steel  but in  an alliage of "bronze" (sorry i don't know the name of the metal alliage in english")

I think alliage is "alloy" in English




Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: Sackett on July 25, 2005, 06:07:06 PM
Watchin Wild West Tech the other day I believe it was.  They discussed the conversion of the cap and ball to cartridges.  Apparently, it was done a lot with the older pistols.


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: CZ on August 22, 2005, 08:10:43 AM
this page might interest you all, theres some valuable information a little down the page: http://www.armchairgunshow.com/otsAZ_conversions.htm

(http://www.armchairgunshow.com/images/cartridge-conversions.jpg)
 8)


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: Beebs on August 22, 2005, 03:42:56 PM
We went thru this before Beebs, they were available, S&W had then in 1852 and a lot of conversions were made to Colts by gunsmiths, somebody point this to the right thread.

Apologies, I am merely saying widely available in all fields.


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: Harmonica on September 11, 2005, 11:33:37 PM
I've said it before and  I'll say it again.

It's happened all the time back then.  As long as there were mettlic cartridges made for rifles there were guys willing to saw off thier fricken cylinders to accomidate the cartridge.  It's as simply as that.  I'm sure they didn't give a rat's ass about infriging on anyones patent.

I'll run down the whole deal...

"Rollin White had taken out a patent dated April 3, 1855 for a revolver with the chambers bored all the way through the cylinder.  The patent was purchased by a firm (Smith and Wesson) who adapted a revolver built under it to the new rim-fire .22 caliber self exploding metallic cartridges.  This patent, despite the fact that it was not originally intended to apply to self exploding metallic cartridge revolvers, prevented, until it expired, any other firm from putting on the market a revolver that loaded from the rear of the cylinder.  Another factor that delayed the spread of cartridge hand arms was the difficulty of obtaining cartridges along the frontiers, where most of the large-caliber revolvers were used, until their manufacture and sale for use in rifles became widespread.

During the period of change, a great number of cap and ball revolvers were altered to take one of the self-exploding metallic cartridges put out for the use in rifles.  The rifle and revolver cartridges available for use in standard-size percussion-cap revolvers were: .32 short and long rim-fire, which would fit the .31 caliber Pocket revolvers; .38 short and long rim-and center fire, which would fit the .36 caliber Navy, Police and Pocket revolvers: the .44 rim-fire Henry and Ballard, .44 center-fire American and Russian which would fit the .44 caliber Old Model Army and the .44 Model of 1860 Army revolvers.

There were several methods of altering a cap and ball revolver to a cartridge arm.  The simplest way was accomplished by cutting off the part of the cylinder that contained the nipples, boring out the chambers to fit the cartridge to be used, filling up the space between the cut-down cylinder and the standing breech by inserting a plate of metal with an opening on the right side fir the insertion of cartridges, and adding a thin blade to the nose of the hammer to fire a rim-fire cartridge.  The most common of these alteration of this type were .36 caliber to a .38 rim-fire.  In the longer barreled .36 and .44 caliber models a hinged gate at the bottom and held by a spring catch was usually added to the opening for insertion of the cartridges(Blondie’s bad ass conversion), and a ejector rod was put on the right side of the barrel to shove out the empty shells.  Sometimes the old lever rammer was left in its place(Blondie’s bad ass conversion); sometimes it was removed and the hole filled up flush with the frame(smoky ruins gun from Josey Wales).  When either the .36 or .44 caliber arms were altered to take center-fire cartridges , the nose of the hammer was usually cut off flat and make to strike on a separate firing pin that was set with a rebound spring in the new breech plate that took up the space formerly occupied by the nipples of the percussion cylinder.  In some cases a new cylinder chambered for the cartridge to be used was fitted to the old frame.(Blondie's bad ass conversion)

Two types of alteration allowed for the use of a second cylinder still taking the regular cap and ball loose ammunition in case cartridges could not be obtained.  One used a special cylinder, bored through and usually counter-sunk for the rims of the cartridges, which had a cap fitting over the back end to hold the cartridges in place and was pierced with small slits at the edge of the chambers to allow the nose of the hammer to enter and explode the rim-fire cartridges.  To reload this type of alteration, it was necessary to dismount the barrel and take off the cylinder. The cap then lifted off the pins that held it to the cylinder and the empty cartridges could be pushed out by the center pin and placed by loaded ones.  As this system entailed no change in the frame of the arm itself, a regular cap and ball cylinder could be put in the place o the altered cylinder at a moment’s notice. 

The patents for the alterations of the Colt revolvers are listed on the frames of the altered arms as 1871 and 1872.  Factory alterations of Colt Army and Navy revolvers were in the hands of the services of the United States prior to November 27,1872, as an ordnance report speaks of the arms in use at that date as conversions of the cap and ball Colt revolvers.  Alterations other than factory work, done by private gunsmiths, are seldom dated and might be made any time after the cartridge that they are chambered for was put on the market.   "
[End Quote]

Below are a listing of the typical types of conversions that individual owners, dubious gunsmiths and ingenious soldiers came up with for converting their cap and ball revolvers to cartridge firing pistols.
   

Conversion #1:
This conversion is done by cutting out the nipples off the rear end of the cylinder leaving a bore through hole to breech load.  The gap is then filled with a removable breech plate.  The hammer is cut to reach cartridges through a slit in the plate.  This type of conversion allows for cylinder style to toggle back and forth from percussion-cap to rim fire metallic cartridges.

Conversion #2:
This conversion is done by cutting through just forward of the nipples and taking the cutoff piece of cylinder and removing the nipples and replacing them with pins and slotting the piece to allow for a hammer with an added head to fall in the slots hitting the pins.  The piece is reattached to the cylinder.  This type of conversion allows for cylinder style to toggle back and forth from percussion-cap to rim fire metallic cartridges.
 
Conversion #3:
This conversion is done by cutting off the cylinder leaving bore through holes, filling the gap with a permanent breech plate with loading gate and rebounding firing pin.  No modification to the hammer required.  For center fire metallic cartridges.

Conversion#4:
This conversion is done by the same as above but mounting the firing pin to the hammer.  For center fire metallic cartridges.


Conversion #5 The Richards Mason Conversion
This was a factory machined process replacing the cylinder and barrel completely to accommodate for metallic cartridges and adding an ejector rod and center fire hammer.  These conversion were done legally after the Smith and Wesson patent ran out on bore through cylinders.


Conversion #6 The Thuer’s Conversion
This got around Smith and Wesson’s patent by loading the metallic cartridge from the front of the cylinder much like percussion-cap.  These took special Thuer’s ammunition and were clumsy and not very reliable.  The Cylinder has a movable rear end, which turns to allow the hammer to strike an ejection pin and throw the spent shell out the front.

From:
Haven, Charles T. (Charles Tower), 1904-

A history of the Colt revolver, and the other arms made by Colt's patent fire arms manufacturing company from 1836 to 1940, by Charles T. Haven & Frank A. Belden; with a foreword by Stephen V. Gransay.

New York: W. Morrow & Company, 1940.


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: cigar joe on September 12, 2005, 04:14:06 AM
thanks, good stuff.


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: Harmonica on September 16, 2005, 04:22:18 PM
This is a very rare excellent example of a "rouge gunsmith" taking it upon himself ignore the patent that Smith Wesson had on the bore through cylinder.  It is neither a Thur's conversion or Richards Mason Conversion, it's simply some guy who had access to .38 rim fire cartridges from Europe, who being oversea's didn't have to follow any US patent laws so started taking it upon themselfs, next to Smith and Wesson's small caliber rimfire's, to produce the first "mid to large" size caliber cartridges...

It is such a fine example of one of the first true early to mid '60 conversions that I am seriously thinking about buying it for my collection...

(http://www.armchairgunshow.com/images/AX-8253.jpg)

Notice how the back of the cylinder has a removable piece, which to breech load the cylinder.  You can see the individual firing pins behind each cylinder.  This type of conversion would allow you to toggle back and forth between cap and ball to metallic cartridge cylinders...
Example 2 mentioned above


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: cigar joe on September 17, 2005, 05:23:01 AM
Cool pics. This is the type of conversion Angel Eyes would have had for his Remington, in the final gunfight he's toggeled back to his cap and ball cylinder, even though he has some cartridges left in his belt.


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: iceman on September 19, 2005, 03:57:20 PM
Cool pics. This is the type of conversion Angel Eyes would have had for his Remington, in the final gunfight he's toggeled back to his cap and ball cylinder, even though he has some cartridges left in his belt.

Bloody Hell!!! you guys never cease to amaze me. I'm sure no other film forum has detail like this one does...
As someone we all know might say...

"BRAVO"

ICE


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: CZ on September 20, 2005, 12:49:07 PM
great posts Harmonica. but still, its not that likely that such conversions were widely available as they seem to be in the film (everyone in the movie wears gun belts with cartridge holsters, which did not exist in the early 1860's, if you want to go even more into detail. 8))

the movie's conversion guns are still cool as hell though, so why bother discussing ;)


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: Catriona on May 09, 2007, 02:57:12 PM
I'm new to this site so hope you guys out there bear this in mind   O0  . Not quite sure why it has taken so long for me to join but I'm hear now so that's all that matters. This film is fantasic, my favourite character has to be blondie, Clint eastwood is bloody brilliant!! I've watched the film over and over but am yet to notice anything in particular about blondies gun, what shoudl I be looking at or for??

Cat  xXx :)


Title: It's a great book
Post by: Clinton on May 10, 2007, 01:33:33 AM
this page might interest you all, theres some valuable information a little down the page: http://www.armchairgunshow.com/otsAZ_conversions.htm

(http://www.armchairgunshow.com/images/cartridge-conversions.jpg)
 8)

The book is very good. Aside from "showing off" the author's and other collector's rare factory engraved peices, its full of information about the conversions. As far as I can remember, it doesn't delve into non-factory Leone-type conversions.


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: tucumcari bound on July 24, 2007, 10:28:40 AM
Those guns are awesome looking! Great post Clinton.


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: Clinton on July 26, 2007, 05:42:30 AM
Those guns are awesome looking! Great post Clinton.

The image was not from me but part of the quote from CZ! I was just commenting on the same book which I bought some years ago.


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: tokyorose on July 27, 2007, 05:48:42 PM
I love the rattlesnakes on the grips of Blondie's guns.  They're courtesy of Rowdy Yates, from the second episode of Rawhide.  Rowdy got them from a nasty desperado who is killed, very Leone-style, on the belltower of a Catholic Church when the giant bell hits him in the back!  I could see any incarnation of the Man With No Name pulling a stunt like that.


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: Silenzio on July 27, 2007, 05:50:27 PM
I love the rattlesnakes on the grips of Blondie's guns.  They're courtesy of Rowdy Yates, from the second episode of Rawhide.  Rowdy got them from a nasty desperado who is killed, very Leone-style, on the belltower of a Catholic Church when the giant bell hits him in the back!  I could see any incarnation of the Man With No Name pulling a stunt like that.

I saw that episode!  Incident at Alabaster Plain, it's by far the coolest one I've seen.


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: Bill Carson on July 31, 2007, 03:23:10 AM
Bloody Hell!!! you guys never cease to amaze me. I'm sure no other film forum has detail like this one does...
As someone we all know might say...

"BRAVO"

ICE

You know buddy, Leone was a genius and perfectionist, so what fans of him we all would be, if we too, wouldn`t try to see every detail, to analyse every shot..., to be a little perfectionist for ourselfes?  ;)

I don`t want to praise us all, but I think that "the great maestro" deserves such fans, fans like we are, and that he would not expect anything less from us.  O0


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: marmota-b on August 02, 2007, 10:24:57 AM
I think I hadn't found courage to go through this conversation before (such things like cartridge conversions are still new to me - I wouldn't know anything about them if I wasn't a Leone fan - and reading it in English isn't easy), but I'm glad I found it today. O0 Great informations here!


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: El Incompetente on December 05, 2008, 03:16:10 PM
Damn interesting reading about those old firearms. I have two questions for you pistoleros (maybe you went through this earlier, in that case, please enlighten me):

1. Most of the converted revolvers i have seen lacks the ejector rod mounted to the side.
Take blondie´s gun for example. Is that just an error made by SL & co. or is it possible to eject the empty cartridges some other way?

2.  How do you get the bullets out of a cap and ball revolver if you want to remove them (without firing it, of course)?
 


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: cigar joe on December 05, 2008, 07:18:52 PM
Quote
Damn interesting reading about those old firearms. I have two questions for you pistoleros (maybe you went through this earlier, in that case, please enlighten me):

1. Most of the converted revolvers i have seen lacks the ejector rod mounted to the side.
Take Blondie's gun for example. Is that just an error made by SL & co. or is it possible to eject the empty cartridges some other way?

2.  How do you get the bullets out of a cap and ball revolver if you want to remove them (without firing it, of course)?

On question 1. they did one of two things they either used the ball seater lever,  notice in the picture below, just under the barrels of the revolvers from left to right 1,2, & 4, is a rod connected to a lever that is connected to a ball seater push rod. What you do is just push the spring button on the muzzle end back towards the pistol grip, that frees the lever from the catch which swings down engaging the ball seater which would normally seat a lead ball in the cylinder bore. With a cartridge conversion that push rod would just push out a spent cartridge. For revolvers 3 & 5 that don't have the lever they had a tool that was just a rod with a handle that you'd keep in your pocket that served the same purpose.

(http://www.armchairgunshow.com/images/cartridge-conversions.jpg)

On question 2. they had a rod that they called a "screw rod" with a cork screw on it that they just inserted in the cylinder and twisted then pulled out the ball, they had them for cannon also.



Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: El Incompetente on December 05, 2008, 10:20:45 PM
Thanks a lot for the information, CJ.

So it´s possible to turn the ball seater push rod to the side?
I mean, because the opening where you insert the cartridges (and where the empty shells must come out)
is a bit up on the right side.


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: cigar joe on December 06, 2008, 04:25:05 AM
Quote
So it´s possible to turn the ball seater push rod to the side?

No its not, they can only push the cartridge out just enough so that you could turn the cylinder and pry the cartridge out with a pen knife especially with those conversions in the image, note on revolver 2 the angle of the image shows that there is a small gap between the cylinder & the frame. On these conversions the separate pushrod with handle would work much much better. 

But on conversions like the one below with the section of cylinder that has the added ring with individual firing pins (though that particular revolver in the image has the push rod lever removed) you would have to unlatch the cylinder push rod lever, then unlatch the cylinder axle & slide it forward enough to remove the ring with the firing pins, then use the lever push rod to push out the cartridges. Neither are the best solution which is the ejector rod. O0

(http://www.armchairgunshow.com/images/AX-8253.jpg)


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: El Incompetente on December 06, 2008, 10:32:20 AM
Thanks again, CJ.

Wow, that´s a quite tricky procedure.
Was there any particular reason for a gunfighter to not
have the smarter ejector rod attached to the side of your gun - high prices, extremely complicated process?


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: cigar joe on December 06, 2008, 04:41:07 PM
I'm sure some gunsmith probably figured out how to go about it, making it a bit more managelable, its not rocket science, but until a conversion turns up in somebody's attic with that type of modification on it we can only speculate. If you look at the Smith & Wesson Model 2 you'll see the different type of ejector rod they fitted to their guns Its just a rod under the barrel that looks nothing like the Colt SAA Peacemaker ejector rod.

http://www.model2project.com/examples.html (http://www.model2project.com/examples.html)

It would be mighty hard to twirl one of those Smith & Wessons though.  O0


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: El Incompetente on December 06, 2008, 07:39:56 PM
its not rocket science

No, after having checked out these two colts a bit closer i realise that.

http://www.armchairgunshow.com/ot57-pix/ac-2671.jpg

http://www.armchairgunshow.com/ot55-pix/ax-dvk.jpg

That kind of ejector rod should have been high up on the gunmen´s wish-list considering the
time it saves.
And i have to add that those two guns look really cool, the first one has an almost
sloppy character with that cylinder and protruding rod,
and the second one raw, stripped and scruffy, and both of them beautiful, evil and deadly.


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: O'Cangaceiro on December 06, 2008, 09:40:23 PM
... and both of them beautiful, evil and deadly.

Yup, I bet those guns weren't designed to kill flies..... >:D


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: cigar joe on December 07, 2008, 03:59:34 PM
NICE finds,  O0


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: El Incompetente on December 08, 2008, 01:15:54 PM
I bet those guns weren't designed to kill flies

But they can be used to capture them with.


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: O'Cangaceiro on December 08, 2008, 06:27:26 PM
But they can be used to capture them with.

Yeah, but not in this movie: you have to go to OUATITW for that.  ;D


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: manuel on April 17, 2009, 06:39:05 PM
I've always loved Blondie's gun. With it's fancy snake engraving.


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: Harmonica on August 27, 2009, 10:03:32 PM
Here are some prime examples of a couple of pre-factory cartridge conversions crafted by talented gunsmiths that still retain the loading lever and plunger for "swapping out" between cartridge and cap and ball.  The first being an example that would fire Henry flat nosed rimfire metallic cartridges.  The .44 is thought to have been converted in the mid 60’s and the .32 somewhere from mid to late 60’s.  As I have stressed before all that was needed were the tools and the cartridges...

(http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/4772/img0002rju.jpg)
(http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/5599/imgauk.jpg)
#1



“Charles D. Leet of Springfield was one of the pioneer cartridge manufacturers.  Springfield directories indicate that Leet, in association with various others, engaged in the manufacture of cartridges in 1861 and continued for about fifteen years thereafter.  Leet cartridges were used at the government trials of the Colt Single action Army revolver in 1872.” #2  


#1 Page 133-134 of A History of The Colt Revolver by Charles T Haven and Frank A. Belden 1940 Bonanza Books New York
#2 Page 161 of Civil War Pistols-A Survey of the Handguns of the Civil War by John D. McAulay 1992 Andrew Mowbray Inc. Publishers  Lincoln, Rhode Island  


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: Harmonica on August 27, 2009, 10:10:11 PM
In the fictional GBU universe Blondies gunsmith could infact have been Thomas Cofer, a Confederate gunsmith, who filed for a patent in Richmond as soon as the south succeeded for a revolver using a bore though cylinder with special metallic cartridges.  Cofer produced revolvers from 1861 to 1862 and is suspected to be the gunsmith responsible for one existing example from that time period converting a .36 cap and ball Manhattan to a .38 rimfire. #1   Blonide’s gun!  And I’m not kidding you when I say that Sergio Leone could have quite possibly read this!

Thomas Cofers story is an interesting one and it’s been a real treat digging up history on this guy.


(http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/8873/img0006w.jpg)
Cofer's Confederate patent for a revolver with bore through cylinder and metallic cartridges dated 1861.
(http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/9536/img0007lul.jpg)
Cofer's first cylinder model.


#1- Page 140-144 of Confederate Handguns by William A. Albaugh, III Hugh Benet, Jr. Edward N. Simmons.  1963 Riling and Lentz, Philadelphia


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: cigar joe on August 28, 2009, 03:37:26 AM
Great find and a great addition to the thread O0.

Now all we have to find is an example of the earliest gun belt with cartridge loops. ;-)


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: marmota-b on March 05, 2010, 05:17:42 AM
It's really a great find O0; I only wish I undestood it better, rocket science or not. :P


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: Dust Devil on March 05, 2010, 05:35:21 AM
I only wish I undestood it better, rocket science or not. :P

Glad to see I'm in good company, I thought I was the only Western aficionado that doesn't know jack about guns... :-[


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: marmota-b on March 06, 2010, 02:34:03 AM
Glad to see I'm in good company, I thought I was the only Western aficionado that doesn't know jack about guns... :-[

 ;)
It's what a friend said to me few days ago... you choose an interest you pursue and you never get to really pursue the others. So I chose languages over science and technology; and I'll probably never understand guns now.
Neither will I understand trains. And that pains me just as much, if not more.
But I'm able to express that in English, and that's a good thing. (I'm Czech.)


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: Dust Devil on March 06, 2010, 06:17:36 AM
Well, another thing with these old guns is that you can't just start to ''study'' them. I mean, if you're interested in let's say botany, you can start practically anywhere you want. Same thing with sports or languages. But with (old) guns you can't just wake up one morning go in the local shop and ''buy some''. Which, if you think better, isn't necessarily a bad thing. If at all.

Still, I must say, it is a little frustrating for someone that has seen x Westerns to know nothing (or very little) about the subject. Especially if that fan is a ''he''. :-[


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: marmota-b on March 06, 2010, 08:07:03 AM
Which, if you think better, isn't necessarily a bad thing. If at all.

I'm certainly glad to live in a country where you have to have a licence for holding a gun.

And yes, it is quite frustrating. Even if that fan is a she. I actually think it might be even more frustrating in my case, because I do not think it has anything to do with my gender, that I could know just as much as anyone if I really tried to; but it must seem that it has to do with it... and I'm not going to really try to, not anytime soon anyway.
And these two handicaps of mine, the guns and the trains, were really frustrating when I was writing my paper on OUATITW back in grammar school. Although, come to think of it, had I known more, and known where to look for more, I'd probably never have started writing the paper - even as it were, I had trouble stopping myself from looking for more sources and really write something!


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: johnk on May 14, 2011, 09:28:44 PM
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/In_the_good_the_bad_and_the_ugly_did_they_use_black_powder_pistols_or_bp_cartridge_pistols


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: cigar joe on May 15, 2011, 06:55:36 AM
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/In_the_good_the_bad_and_the_ugly_did_they_use_black_powder_pistols_or_bp_cartridge_pistols

WTF is the point of this, we already went through this whole subject, OK I'll play along.

BTY the poster on Wiki assumes the final Bridge Battle was in New Mexico, when in fact Sibley was already in retreat. In Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana, and other points east there were naval siege guns defending the river systems, nuff said.


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: johnk on May 15, 2011, 11:44:50 AM
Point is .... it another independant view ! There are two kinds of people in this world my friend ........Those who think they know it all and those who do.


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: cigar joe on May 15, 2011, 12:23:18 PM
I would have gone there and posted but I can't seen to register at the moment, and boy is it a slow loading site, when I do I'll rectify that entry, and please, johnk, find more and I'll do the same at those.  O0


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: cigar joe on May 15, 2011, 06:38:45 PM
OK I posted the answer from our research in the discussion area. Check it out.


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: johnk on July 29, 2011, 03:47:29 AM
i would like to give you more informations about these guns...i m a collectioner of black powder guns replicas and i can answer to all yours technical questions ;) ;)

first of all i m sure that you knows that the blondie gun is a colt navy 1851 in a 36 inch caliber...(octogonal barrel)

the tuco s gun is a sudist copy of the colt navy 1851 because in this case the barrel is  circular.the real name of this model is "griswold an gunnison" in a 36 caliber either. historicaly the gun s frame is not in steel  but in  an alliage of "bronze" (sorry i don't know the name of the metal alliage in english")
the production bought some italian copy of the great gun  firm uberti wich was the historically speaking the first firm to produce very good quality replicas of black powder guns...(first productionstarted in 1958!!)
the guns used in the gbu are not like the original guns because as you wrote before the conversion gun appeared later after the civil war
but it was more practical to use and safer for actors... (ask benito stefanelli he was a specialist as master of weapons...)
the angel eyes gun is a remington new model army in 44 inch caliber...

the color picture of the gun in josey wales is a model of conversion "colt 1861 army" it use normal metallic cartridge

the other one are colt 1861 army . only used with black powder (cap and ball system)
the difference between the 2 models is the steel stick under the barrel for the black powder model (in french it is named "levier de chargement " or loading *levier*

and as a conclusion the 2 enormous gun of clint in the movie "josey..." are  colt walker in cal.44 the most powerful (and heavy!)percussion colt of the black powder colt history:
Nice to hear an honest opinion .....and not  for once a  all in your face "I think know it all " view from Cigar Joe


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: cigar joe on July 29, 2011, 04:22:55 AM
Never claimed to know it all pard, just laying out that its all very plausible.
Again carefully check out this entry:

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=108.msg132721#msg132721 (http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=108.msg132721#msg132721)


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: johnk on July 30, 2011, 09:03:53 PM
In the fictional GBU universe Blondies gunsmith could infact have been Thomas Cofer, a Confederate gunsmith, who filed for a patent in Richmond as soon as the south succeeded for a revolver using a bore though cylinder with special metallic cartridges.  Cofer produced revolvers from 1861 to 1862 and is suspected to be the gunsmith responsible for one existing example from that time period converting a .36 cap and ball Manhattan to a .38 rimfire. #1   Blonide’s gun!  And I’m not kidding you when I say that Sergio Leone could have quite possibly read this!

Thomas Cofers story is an interesting one and it’s been a real treat digging up history on this guy.


(http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/8873/img0006w.jpg)




I would be amazed if Leone had read this as I would have thought he would have other things on his mind like making an entertaining western !
Cofer's Confederate patent for a revolver with bore through cylinder and metallic cartridges dated 1861.
(http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/9536/img0007lul.jpg)
Cofer's first cylinder model.


#1- Page 140-144 of Confederate Handguns by William A. Albaugh, III Hugh Benet, Jr. Edward N. Simmons.  1963 Riling and Lentz, Philadelphia


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: johnk on July 30, 2011, 09:06:44 PM
Never claimed to know it all pard, just laying out that its all very plausible.
Again carefully check out this entry:

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=108.msg132721#msg132721 (http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=108.msg132721#msg132721)
Anything is plausible ........We have to offset that with what is likely .......Pard


Title: Re: Blondie and his gun
Post by: cigar joe on July 31, 2011, 03:56:21 AM
Its very likely also, I've known many gunsmith's and its amazing what they can do, so take the fact that just about every podunk settlement had a gunsmith back then then its not unlikely that some would tinker around with what was available. Cofer is just one example documented.