Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => The Good, The Bad and The Ugly => Topic started by: mortimerforever on June 29, 2004, 01:08:53 PM



Title: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: mortimerforever on June 29, 2004, 01:08:53 PM
This bit confuses me. In the camp Tuco recognises Angel Eyes and later adresses him as an old friend. How do they know each other?



Quote
I'm here with your old friend Angel Eyes.


Title: Re:How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: shorty larsen on June 29, 2004, 01:57:37 PM
An old "job" together?


Title: Re:How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: cigar joe on June 29, 2004, 06:18:51 PM
That is a back story that we never got told.... and before the camp Angel Eyes knows who Tuco is, so with our Leone expertice lets make up a plausible scenario.

Go over all his crimes and see if any dovetail into Angel Eye's MO.


Title: Re:How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: mortimer on June 29, 2004, 09:25:03 PM
"Birds of a feather" as they say. Three outlaws in the same general geographical area its safe to say they have had some sort of dealings in the past.


Title: Re:How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: Half Soldier on June 30, 2004, 04:44:42 PM
there's also the assumption that Blondie knows Angel Eyes too - and that Tuco knows that Blondie knows Angel Eyes.  Angel Eyes also believes that Blondie wouldn't talk given the 'same treatment'.  I've often wondered if there was a missing scene somewhere.  Fair enough if Angel Eyes knows Blondie and Tuco from seperate jobs in the past, but when tuco says 'Hey look Blondie its Angel Eyes' in the camp when B & T didn't know each other at the beginning of the film doesn't follow.  Unless they were talking about him on the journey from the monastry to being captured.  Just another continuation thing I guess ....


Title: Re:How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: dave jenkins on June 30, 2004, 05:56:35 PM
One more thing to consider: at Tuco's second "hanging," Angel Eyes tells a woman onlooker that men with ropes around their necks don't always hang. Then he mentions that Tuco has a guardian angel, in fact, a golden-haired one. Obviously, Angel Eyes knows all about their con: but how? Since they only began pulling it after they met, Angel Eyes must have witnessed the routine somewhere during the course of the events depicted in the film. The only way to account for this, it seems to me, is with a missing scene.....


Title: Re:How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: noodles_leone on July 02, 2004, 04:27:01 PM
i think it is one of the great ideas in this film: sergio let us know that the characters know each other. How? We don't know. Sergio doesn't know, and i think Luciano Vincenzoni doesn't know too. It is just a way to make the audience enter in the movie in an active way, and that brings also three good points:
1) it shows that behind this movie, there is a coherent (is it realy an english word?) univers, even if actually... there is nothing
2) that brings a mystery, which makes us talking and talking about it... forty years after the film.
3) there is two kinds of people... people that know each other, that are the main characters, who are the strongest, faster, that won't die before the last 5 minutes... AND people who are in the movie for 1 or 2 scenes (and die after that). In fact, that put blondie, tuco and angel ON THE TOP, in a very closed circle, in which very few people are admited... (shorty tryed... and in this movie with so much hanging scene, he's the only one to be killed like that).


Title: Re:How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: nero-corbucci on July 03, 2004, 02:26:41 PM
I couldn't agree more with the assumption that the characters were scripted to interact in a world where the "best" know each other personally or are, at least, aware of one anothers reputations, but I'm forced to wonder if the novelization by Joe Millard (which I have never read, or even heard of until I caught it in another thread) takes the time to construct a backstory for these characters and their relationship, as the only one with even a hint of a past in the flick is Tuco...

The aformentioned thread (in collectibles, I think... I've been reading for hours  ;)) mentioned that the GBU novel begins with the ambush on Bill Carson and his mates... interesting to say the least.


Title: Re:How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: cigar joe on July 05, 2004, 06:51:01 AM
If you think about it the initial enactment of the Blondie/Tuco scam would have had tounges wagging and the story of some stranger freeing Tuco and aiding in his escape would have spread about the territory.

Only the good townsfolk would not necessarily put two and two together and realize that it was Blondie that freed Tuco, they would assume it was a member of Tuco's gang.

Angel Eyes being outside the law and a schemer himself  probably deduced this especially if he knows of both Tuco's and Blondie's reputations.


Title: Re:How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: Blueberry on July 06, 2004, 01:53:59 AM
Actuallly I think it works great with just the insinuations of former dealings ... it creates a "mythical" and timeless atmosphere around the characters ... and the scene with Angel Eyes and the Golden Haired Angel shows us that Angel Eyes is very very clever and observant... and cool. This hanging scheme is none of his business, he just takes off, knowing whats gonna happen.  8)


Title: Re:How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: Walter on July 16, 2004, 06:22:50 AM
I think that all three know each other. They are all expert gunslingers, and I reckon these people kept track of one another.

But I don't think they have had any "dealings" in the past, not worked together anyway. They don't mix well, which this story bears out very clearly.

They might even have shared a bottle somewhere along the line, but it is to me obvious that they never had partipicated in anything where money was at stake before.  


Title: Re:How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: The Gentleman Killer on July 28, 2007, 09:41:11 PM
One more thing to consider: at Tuco's second "hanging," Angel Eyes tells a woman onlooker that men with ropes around their necks don't always hang. Then he mentions that Tuco has a guardian angel, in fact, a golden-haired one. Obviously, Angel Eyes knows all about their con: but how? Since they only began pulling it after they met, Angel Eyes must have witnessed the routine somewhere during the course of the events depicted in the film. The only way to account for this, it seems to me, is with a missing scene.....

Perhaps Tuco and Angel Eyes pulled similar jobs before?


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: dave jenkins on July 28, 2007, 09:44:59 PM
An interesting idea. O0


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: Bill Carson on July 31, 2007, 03:51:01 AM
I just hope that you all are right, and that Leone done that intentionaly, because I`m afraid that maybe "the fingers of studios  >:D" were implicated once again, and that they once again butchered the scenes and the movie...  :'(


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: dave jenkins on July 31, 2007, 11:15:06 AM
No, if SL ever intended to include such explanatory material, he never shot it. Did he exclude such things intentionally, though, or did he just run out of time or ideas? We may never know. Anyway,I rather like the fact that some things aren't explained; we can provide our own explanations, it's part of the fun.


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: tucumcari bound on July 31, 2007, 11:38:47 AM
It was clearly not explained purposely. As we all know, Sergio absolutely loved American Cinema but his only complaint was that they told to much. Sergio always kept things from us in most of his films. He left certain things out to try and figure it out ourselves. There was no mistake here, you could almost guarantee it.


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: uncknown on July 31, 2007, 06:47:45 PM
tHE only unanswered question about a plot point in a  Leone film that ever bothered me (sorta like Columbo) LOL!
I naively thought that the expanded Italian version would fill in the answer>


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: cigar joe on July 31, 2007, 09:00:29 PM
Well you know the expression "as thick as thieves" I just assume their paths crossed in "Arizona".


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: Bill Carson on August 01, 2007, 01:16:47 AM
No, if SL ever intended to include such explanatory material, he never shot it. Did he exclude such things intentionally, though, or did he just run out of time or ideas? We may never know. Anyway,I rather like the fact that some things aren't explained; we can provide our own explanations, it's part of the fun.

O.K. then. If we take this to be true, then I would say that in my opinion Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other personaly from the past, and of course, that Tuco and Blondie know each other (because they pulling their con from the begining of the film), but I think that Angel Eyes and Blondie don`t know each other personaly or at least, that they haven`t had much "contact" one with another. For me it`s bigger chance that they know each other just by reputation or just lightly, because if they were together (for some job or something...) somewhere and sometimes in the past, these kind of man - at the same place, at the same time, especially when money is involved - highly unlikely that they all would be alive till the begining of this film story (at the end of the film we saw what happens when you put these people together...).

One more thing to consider: at Tuco's second "hanging," Angel Eyes tells a woman onlooker that men with ropes around their necks don't always hang. Then he mentions that Tuco has a guardian angel, in fact, a golden-haired one. Obviously, Angel Eyes knows all about their con: but how? Since they only began pulling it after they met, Angel Eyes must have witnessed the routine somewhere during the course of the events depicted in the film. The only way to account for this, it seems to me, is with a missing scene.....

Angel Eyes knew about their con but he didn`t instantly said "golden-haired angel". He was first looking around and when he saw Blondie, then he said that to the woman.


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: cigar joe on August 01, 2007, 07:19:54 AM
Check through the "I got the timeline down" we covered a lot of this there.


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: roger_d on August 28, 2007, 11:45:26 AM
This question has nawed at me for a long time too. I truely thing there's a scene missing and we may see it sometime in the future.

Another question i have is when  they were in the camp and tuco tells blondie "Look its Angel Eyes". Blondie squints and if he knows Angel Eyes and says yeah, and something to the effect that "you better be Carson".

There's got to be something missing.


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: cigar joe on August 28, 2007, 12:26:37 PM
Quote
There's got to be something missing.


You just have to have imagination.


Title: Re:How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: iceman on August 28, 2007, 04:13:09 PM
Perhaps Tuco and Angel Eyes pulled similar jobs before?

So why doesn't Angle Eyes have a price on his head that Blondie would be after..????

ICE


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: cigar joe on August 28, 2007, 06:01:16 PM
maybe he's smarter than Tuco, which wouldn't be a stretch, no?


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: Jill on September 03, 2007, 09:33:06 AM
Oh... If the Master did a film about AE and Tuco... "early days" (including a few of Blondie, too)...

It should have included a third main charakter, of course somebody from the earlier films :)  should die because AE's hour hadn't come yet...
Lots of great adventures...


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: dave jenkins on September 03, 2007, 09:40:18 AM
It should have included a third main charakter, of course somebody from the earlier films :)  should die because AE's hour hadn't come yet...
The third Mortimer brother?  ;D


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: Jill on September 03, 2007, 09:57:33 AM
The third Mortimer brother?  ;D

Why not?  ;D Probably the third brother died by AE's hands...
Either he or a third "GMV-as-an-evil-mexican-bandit" charakter.  ;D


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: Mw/NNrules on September 03, 2007, 01:11:43 PM
The Bad and The Ugly obviously know each other because they're both Super-Awesome Gunslingers (along with The Good, Harmonica, Frank, and others), and so there reputations succeed them. Obviously.


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: dave jenkins on September 03, 2007, 01:37:04 PM
Yeah, but Frank and Harmonica do not exist in the same space-time continuum occupied by the GBU characters. The GBU West is like our own (American Civil War, etc.), but the OUATITW West is very different (no Golden Spike, a single private railroad building a transcontinental line from east to west, etc.) I speculate that what accounts for these differences is that there was no Civil War in the OUATITW world; this resulted in a longer States Rights period, making interstate issues thornier, slowing progress and modernization generally. Perhaps the events in OUATITW even occur as late as 1968......


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: Mw/NNrules on September 03, 2007, 01:44:11 PM
Yeah, but Frank and Harmonica do not exist in the same space-time continuum occupied by the GBU characters.
It'd be cool if they did.


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: cigar joe on September 03, 2007, 09:09:16 PM
Quote
Yeah, but Frank and Harmonica do not exist in the same space-time continuum occupied by the GBU characters. The GBU West is like our own (American Civil War, etc.), but the OUATITW West is very different (no Golden Spike, a single private railroad building a transcontinental line from east to west, etc.) I speculate that what accounts for these differences is that there was no Civil War in the OUATITW world; this resulted in a longer States Rights period, making interstate issues thornier, slowing progress and modernization generally. Perhaps the events in OUATITW even occur as late as 1968......

It may be that OUTITW occurred as late as 1883

(http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2342/titleblockaprrgw1.jpg)

(http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/9269/aprrml1.jpg)


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: The Peacemaker on September 03, 2007, 09:15:23 PM
I would assume from the way the movie is presented that it takes place somewhere between the late 1870's to 1900.


Now that I think about it, I wonder how long the time span in the movie is. I remember someone saying that the events in GBU took about 1 year.


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: cigar joe on September 03, 2007, 09:34:01 PM
If you count the flash back then its probably one of the longest time spans of a Leone Western.


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: The Peacemaker on September 03, 2007, 09:37:46 PM
If you count the flash back then its probably one of the longest time spans of a Leone Western.

I meant without the flashbacks.


I think the movie time span is a week.


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: cigar joe on September 03, 2007, 09:41:26 PM
yea without I agree.


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: dave jenkins on September 04, 2007, 09:32:03 AM
Joe, interesting, but the A&P never built their transcontinental RR:

Quote
ATLANTIC AND PACIFIC RAILROAD. The Atlantic and Pacific Railroad Company was chartered in New York State in 1852 for the purpose of constructing a transcontinental railroad. The initial capitalization was $100,000,000. Anson Jones became a stockholder and director and was made commissioner to Texas. Richard J. Walker, former United States Secretary of the Treasury under President James T. Polk, and former Georgia Congressman T. Butler King were the primary promoters of the project. The company wanted to secure the sole franchise for a transcontinental railroad and acquired the charter of the Texas Western for $600,000 in stock and an option to purchase the other transcontinental projects chartered by the state. As a result, the Atlantic and Pacific was the only company to submit a bid that met the provisions of the Mississippi and Pacific act of 1853. However, the securities the company offered as bond were rejected by Governor Elisha M. Peaseqv and the contract was canceled. At a meeting held in Montgomery, Alabama, on December 16, 1854, the promoters reorganized under the Texas Western charter, as all hopes of building a transcontinental railroad by the Atlantic and Pacific had ended.

Then another company was chartered using the same name:

Quote
The Atlantic and Pacific Railroad was chartered by an Act of Congress in 1866. It was to run westward from Springfield, Missouri, through Indian Territory, thence to San Francisco along the 35th parallel. John C. Fremont headed the company, which was composed of investors from the eastern United States. The company also acquired the bankrupt South West Branch of the Pacific Railroad to ensure access into St. Louis. The South West Branch left the main line of the Pacific Railroad at Franklin (now Pacific), Mo., and had reached Rolla by 1860, but the Civil War bankrupted the road. The State of Missouri seized the line in 1865, re-named it the Southwest Pacific Railroad, and operated it until the sale to Fremont.

So, OUATITW is dealing with Alternate History.


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: dave jenkins on September 04, 2007, 09:50:38 AM
Here's some more on the second A&P RR:

Quote
On December 11, 1865, a bill granting lands to aid in the construction of a railway and telegraph line from Missouri and Arkansas to the Pacific coast by the southern route was introduced in the Senate; it was referred to the committee on
Pacific railroads favorable reported, and became a law on July 27, 1866, by the signature of President Johnson. The Atlantic and Pacific was the result.

This was the first company chartered and aided by Congress to construct a Pacific railway over the southern route, and by its agency the fourth through route between the East and the Pacific coast was opened.

Beginning at or near Springfield, Mo., the road was to proceed to the Canadian river and to Albuquerque, thence along the thirty-fifth parallel to the Colorado-and to the Pacific. From its intersection with the Canadian river a branch was to be extended eastwardly to the border of the Arkansas.

In addition to a two-hundred-foot right of way and the usual right to take materials from adjacent public lands, a land grant of twenty odd-numbered sections per mile on each side of its line was made. This applied only to the territories; within the bounds of a state the donation was but half as large. The railway company was to receive the lands by twenty-five mile sections as such sections were reported satisfactorily completed by an examining commission.

The road was to be of uniform gauge, equal in all respects to railways of the first class, and its rails of the best quality of American iron.

It is notable that in this charter Congress provided that, if the route taken should coincide with another road which had received government aid, the previous grant would be deducted; and especially this, -“that no money shall be drawn from the treasury of the United States to aid in the construction of the said Atlantic and Pacific Railroad. By 1866 Congress had become more wary than in 1862.

Then, too, the act required that $1,000,000 be subscribed and 10 per cent be paid in within two years, that construction be begun in two years, that not less than fifty miles a year be built after the second year from beginning and that the whole should be completed by July 4, 1878, finally that if any violation of the act was continued through one year, the government might complete the road.

Other provisions made the railway a post route and military road; provided that government rates should be no higher than to individuals for similar transportation, required sworn annual reports to the secretary of the interior, and reserved the right to alter, amend or repeal.

Two further provisions remain for special attention. One of the chief grounds of discussion over the bill arose from the fact that the line of the road crossed Indian lands. The Cherokees and Chickasaws objected to the section which made it the duty of the United States to extinguish Indian titles as rapidly as might be consistent with public policy and the welfare of the Indians, and , as finally passed, the bill provided that extinguishment should be only by the voluntary cession of the Indians.

The other provision authorized the Southern Pacific Railroad of California to connect with the Atlantic and Pacific at any point near the eastern boundary of California for the purpose of forming a line to San Francisco. The Southern Pacific, if such connection were made, was to make its gauge and rates uniform with those of the Atlantic and Pacific and was to receive the same grants - subject to the same obligations - as the latter road. Thus Congress met the Southern Pacific for the first time and largely aided the road which was soon to monopolize transcontinental traffic over the southern route; but of that, more will be said further on.

In 1867 and 1868 bills were introduced to amend the above act and to further facilitate the construction of the road, but made little of no headway. And in 1869 a joint resolution to extend the time for construction came to nothing. These measures are to be taken in connection with the fact that the Atlantic and Pacific project almost immediately fell into financial difficulties and constructed no mileage until 1871, in which year the census of 1880 credits the company with 33.87 miles of line, all lying in Indian Territory. Accordingly, in 1870, in connection with another bill to amend the charter, we find citizens of New Mexico objecting to aiding a company which could not build the road. It was simply holding the line of the thirty-fifth parallel and keeping others out. The railway company maintained that as the right of way had not been obtained from the Indians it should be relieved of the requirements to construct fifty miles per year beyond the western line of Missouri.

The final outcome of the company’s efforts for further government relief came in 1871 when an act to enable the Atlantic and Pacific Railroad Company to mortgage its road was passed. By this act the company was authorized to mortgage its road, franchises, lands etc., the mortgage to be filed and recorded with the secretary of the interior. This included no government guaranty. Later - immediately following the crisis of 1873 - vain attempts were made to get the United States to guarantee the company’s bonds.

In 1872 the company leased the Pacific railroad of Missouri, later the Missouri Pacific, whcih it operated until 1875; and in November of that year it went into the hands of the receiver.


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: cigar joe on September 04, 2007, 11:06:30 AM
I realized it never got built but thinking thats where they got their Idea.


Title: Re: How do Angel Eyes and Tuco know each other
Post by: dreaddy on October 06, 2007, 10:25:22 PM
From reading western novels and seeing quite a bit of the genre I gather that good gunmen usually know each other (especially if they're in the same geographical area).  So it came as no surprise that Tuco, Angel Eyes and Blondie knew each other.  At lest they must have heard of each other before.  An example of this knowledge of each other can also be found in Eastwood's "Unforgiven."  Little Bill knew who English Bob was and Bob knew him too.  When Little Bill was told that one of the "assassins" was William Muni he knew who Will Muni was.   In the west gunmen had reputations and this traveled far.  Even in the train carriage someone knew English Bob.  So it was no surprise that the three in the Good, Bad and the Ugly knew each other.