Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => The Good, The Bad and The Ugly => Topic started by: drinkanddestroy on May 29, 2012, 04:46:25 PM



Title: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 29, 2012, 04:46:25 PM
is the GBU Blu Ray that comes as an individual disc the exact same thing that comes in "The Man With No Name Trilogy" Blu Ray set?



Title: Re: GBU Blu Ray
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 29, 2012, 05:04:13 PM
Yes, it is.


Title: GBU Special Edition dvd and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 29, 2012, 05:48:20 PM
We've been discussing the restored scenes it in bits and pieces throughout various threads, most recently in the thread of the restored version of OUATIA. But I haven't seen a thread dedicated to a scene-by scene breakdown of all the restored scenes, so I will do so here:


Here are the restored scenes, off the top of my head. Please let me know whether I am missing any, or if I have included any erroneously:



1) Tuco recruits his 3 men in the cave: This is the one restored scene that was actually removed by Leone himself, after the Italian premiere. The cocksucker John Jerk from MGM put it back in the restoration, claiming that he believed it would be jarring for the viewer to see Tuco with 3 men without having an explanation for how they appeared; and justified including it cuz Leone actually did show it once -- at that Italian premiere, even thogh he removed it himself! This scene absolutely does not belong there: it is a complete waste of time and is utterly useless, and most importantly, Leone himself removed it. It should have only been included as a deleted scene. Jerk is a fucking asshole for including this scene. (I personally despise it more than most people do cuz the first time I saw this movie -- it was the first Leone movie I ever saw -- it felt way too slow, and it was around the time of the Cave scene that I almost turned the movie off. Imagine how infuriated I was when later I learned that the scene that slowed the movie down and pissed me off so much was added by a studio cocksucker who decided his opinion took precedence over Leone's!)


2) Angel eyes Visits the Confederate Fort to find out about Bill Carson's whereabouts:

IMO this is  a very important scene, and from what I have read here, even many of those who prefer the shorter version of the movie, believe that this is the one scene that absolutely belongs in the movie. Firstly, this scene explains that the reason Angel Eyes appears as the Sergeant at Betterville is cuz he found out that Carson wouild probably wind up there. Without this scene, it seems a wild coincidence that Angel Eyes suddenly appears there.
Furthermore, this scene shows the horrors of war. As Frayling discusses in the commentary, this is a nice juxtaposition of the domestic crimes of Angel Eyes, with the utter destruction of war. (Technically, this war was also a "domestic" issue, but I digress...) Though Angel Eyes would be considered a criminal and the war is a legally accepted affair, it is in fact many times more destructive, and this scene is part of this movie's challenge to the classically accepted notion of legal violence vs. illegal violence.
Finally, this is the one scene where we see a shred of humanity in Angel Eyes: he shakes his head -- ever so slightly -- upon witnessing the horrors at the fort, thus displaying how horrific these scenes are, that they could move a cold-blooded killer like Angel Eyes, a man who shows not a shred of humanity in any other scene.
Also, this scene has a beautiful version of one of Morricone' civil war themes.
So this is IMO the most important restored scene, and never should have been deleted.

3) Extended sequences involving Tuco's sadism toward Blondie in the Desert:
IMO not necessary for the narrative.
According to Frayling's commentary -- which is absolutely amazing -- Leone was upset that people said the desert scenes should be cut, for he believed that Tonino Delli Colli had filmed them so beautifully, they were worthy of the great surrealist painters!

4) Tuco and Blondie visit the Confederate bivouac at Apache Canyon, and get directions to the Mission San Antonio
IMO informs us of 3 basic things, none of which are really important:
a) that Tuco is intentionally heading to the Mission and doesn't just happen to stumble upon it coincidentally; but that's not very important, cuz, as soon as he arrives, he specifically asks for Padre Ramirez, so that tells us all we need to know about the fact that he has some specific knowledge of the Mission.
b) It gives us some geographic info about the location of the characters -- and this movie does follow a real historic timeline of events (refer to cigar joe's spectacular research on the timeline in this thread http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=4191.0 )  but that's unimportant cuz we could have been informed of that with a very brief mention, that it is the "Mission San Antonio," perhaps with a simple sign above the door or something.
c) it tells us that the area is crawling with Yankee patrols, foreshadowing Tuco and Blondie's capture; but it's not very important to tell us that cuz we know that they are in a war zone; and cuz Blondie mentions they'd be crossing Confederate and Yankee lines (in the next deleted scene).
So this scene does nothing except tell us 3 unnecessary pieces of info and is therefore unnecessary for the narrative. Of course, there are many potential purposes in a Leone scene (narrative being one of the least!), but this scene doesn't have any other use, eg. cinematography, landscapes, themes, music, sound, etc. (The only thing I notice in it is that, off the top of my head, it is the only night scene in the movie, besides the early scene where Angel Eyes pays a visit to Carson's girlfriend).
So IMO, this is really an unnecessary scene.

5) Extended sequence of Blondie and Tuco after they leave the Mission San Antonio, before they are captured.

The 2 of them are looking at a map.Blondie is trying to pry info on the direction of the cemetery from Tuco -- he says "since... we'll be crossing Yankee and Confederate lines a few times, I thought you might tell me where we're going." Tuco refuses to divulging where they are heading toward, simply saying "towards $200,000; is that good enough for you?"

The only thing that may be considered important in this scene is this bit of dialogue, as Blondie is trying to pry info from Tuco about the location of the cemetery; when Tuco says "When we get there, then I'll tell you; you're not worried, are you?" And Blondie points to the dead soldiers on the side of the road, and says, "Those men aren't worried about anything anymore, are they?" So this is one more of the juxtapositions that are a theme of the movie: the pursuit of money, which men risk their life for,  while life is so perilous and can all end in an instant, at which point everything that men worries about, fought for, and pursued, is utterly meaningless.

Also, Tuco discusses the names of some of the areas he expects to be passing through, so it further establishes the locations for the movie (though ultimately, we don't know if they actually pass there, since Tuco and Blondie are captured shortly thereafter).


6)  As Angel Eyes and Blondie are sleeping, Angel Eyes's gang suddenly appears, and Blondie kills one of them


IMO this scene is not very important.

It basically accomplishes 3 things:

a) it shows how angel Eyes's gang joins them. Blondie wouldn't have agreed (as easily) to leave Betterville with Angel Eyes to find the grave along with Angel Eyes's gang, so Angel Eyes had his gang sneak up and join them on the way, when it;s too late for Blondie to back out. (Not all that important, cuz we never actually see Blondie leave Betterville with Angel Eyes alone; we just see ANgel eyes throw him the clothing and announce that they are going to look for the gold. So it is not jarring when you subsequently see Angel Eyes's gang with them; it could well be that they just met outside the camp. (Sure, it wouldn't explain why one of them is missing, but is any viewer counting the number of men in the gang?  ;))

b) at the end of that scene, we hear a train whistle, indicating that the train that Tuco is on is nearby; this places Tuco nearby, and explains how -- after he escapes the Union train and hops another train -- he winds up in the same bombed-out town that Blondie and Angel Eyes wind up in.

c) As Frayling says, nobody ever really sleeps in a Leone movie; they only pretend to sleep, or sleep with one eye open  ;) so it's a juxtaposition of style: Blondie only pretends to sleep and therefore hear Angel Eyes's gang sneak up on them, and in the next scene of Tuco pretends to sleep so he can try to steal the gun from a sleeping Union officer on the train.

7 ) Parts of Blondie and Tuco's discussion with the Union Captain played by Aldo Guifrre

8 ) Parts of Blondie and Tuco setting up the dynamite under the Bridge

I am not sure exactly which parts of 7&8 were cut, but IMO both scenes are just fine as they are in the full version, so the full versions are better



(UPDATE: I updated this post [5/30/12, at 5:19 PM EST] to reflect the following changes: I added #7&#8, and removed the part about Angel eyes's discussion with the commandant of Betterville, which I erroneously believed was cut in the 161 min. version. [It was actually only cut from the 148 minute UK version]. Thanks to stanton for the corrections).





Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 29, 2012, 08:57:30 PM
Just wanted to emphasize the point that Leone's preferred version of the movie was the entire restored version minus the Cave Scene, and with a slightly longer version of the scene where Tuco is tortured. (the film of that scene was too damaged for restoration into the movie, so it was included on the dvd/BR as an extra).
UPDATE: SEE YELLOW WRITING BELOW FOR CORRECTION TO ABOVE STATEMENT RE: THE TORTURE SCENE



 Therefore, I believe that  is the "definitive version" of the movie, as in, The Sergio Leone version and the only version that should have ever been released.
Of course, everyone -- including me --has his/her own opinion of which scenes should be there and which shouldn't. And at the end of each entry in the post above, I  too mention whether I personally think the scene is important or not. But I don't want it to seem like I am justifying the deletion of any scenes; I believe the entire movie should have been released just as Leone wanted it. I am simply pointing out whether or not I would have included it if Leone had left the editing of the movie up to me.  But the fact is that The Sergio Leone Preferred Version of the movie is the definitive version and the only version that should have ever been released.

I have no problem with someone saying he believes the shorter version of the movie is better, and that when he watches it, he watch the shorter version (or the longer version and skip certain scenes, etc). But I vehemently disagree with those who say that it should never have been restored as a full movie, but only as extras/ deleted scenes in the special features. Do we want a studio to release a dvd in the version Leone intended, or in the version that one person prefers? if you prefer the 161-minute version and therefore want that to be the version released, then how can you blame John Jerk for releasing the version that he preferred?

The bottom line is that the movie should be released just as Leone wanted it (with any extra scenes, like the Cave Scene, put in the special features), and each individual viewer can forward the scenes he/she doesn't like.


UPDATE: I WAS WRONG IN MY PREVIOUS STATEMENTS ABOUT THE LONGER BEATING SCENE BEING IN ITALIAN VERSIONS OF THE MOVIE; IN FACT THE LONGER BEATING SCENE WAS SHOWN ONLY IN THE ROME PREMIERE, AND THEN REPLACED WITH THE SHORTER BEATING SCENE IN ALL THEATRICAL/DVD/BLU RAY VERSIONS. SO THE "DEFINITIVE VERSION" OF THE MOVIE, IMO, IS THE 2003 MGM VERSION MINUS THE CAVE SCENE, AND WITH THE CORRECT GUNSHOTS.
(thanks to stanton for correcting me on this point)

-----------------------

RE: the picture quality on the blu ray: I absolutely loved it; the picture is so sharp and beautiful! There is hardly any grain in the picture. If you are like me and do not like seeing grain in a movie, it is beautiful. The faces look noticeably red, but for me that is a small trade-off for the very sharp picture. I know that many of you like grain in a picture, and, I have heard criticism that they used Digital Noise Reduction. So while I love the picture quality, I know that many others disagree.

For me, Grain is another issue that "it was like this for so long, so now we consider it preferable." I mean, if video technology had been advanced enough decades ago that there was no grain, I am sure nobody would complain! But now that you are used to grain in the picture, it seems unnatural not to have grain. Well, I didn't grow up accepting grain as the norm. So for me, I look at it as a question of "what is inherently preferable," not "what am i used to?" So for me, less grain is always better. But I understand that for those of you who watched movies with grain for decades, you may feel differently about the matter.

It's an old question of where you draw the line -- till what point does a restoration cross the line from improving the original work to actually changing it? Hard to find a "right answer." The fact is that for any movie released between the 30's and 90's, the picture quality of the dvd today is far, far sharper than the original movie was. At what point does that cross the line from bringing the original top its fullest potential, to actually changing the original?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: cigar joe on May 30, 2012, 03:26:18 AM
as far as grain it all depends, it may be the equivalent of say removing the brush strokes from the Mona Lisa.  8)


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 30, 2012, 12:53:02 PM
Grain is definitely a good thing and I grew up in the age of video.

As for the picture quality of the MGM blu-ray it's total garbage. If you think the MGM BD looks good, you REALLY need to see the Mondo BD:

http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/comparison.php?cID=664#auswahl


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 30, 2012, 02:15:03 PM
Grain is definitely a good thing and I grew up in the age of video.

As for the picture quality of the MGM blu-ray it's total garbage. If you think the MGM BD looks good, you REALLY need to see the Mondo BD:

http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/comparison.php?cID=664#auswahl

I think it depends on what you are looking for. The picture quality is noticeably sharper than the dvd. If you are looking for the picture to look exactly as it did in 1967, and if you believe any deviation from that is a perversion of the movie, then not only is the blu ray not for you, but the special edition dvd is not for you either. The picture quality on the SE dvd is also noticeably sharper than that of the 161-minute dvd, which is very grainy and of significantly poorer quality.

Any time you see a movie trailer (eg. as an extra on a dvd), you will see that obviously the trailer is of significantly inferior picture quality to the feature. Of course they don't bother to restore trailers, so is the quality so bad because the film simply eroded over time, or because the picture quality of color movies was simply not very sharp back then (in comparison to what we have on dvd today)? I wasn't around in the 60's, but for those of you who saw GBU in theaters back then, my guess is that they will confirm that the way the movie looked in theaters back then wasn't anywhere close to the way it looks now on restored dvd. (Nevermind blu ray!). So again, it all comes back to the question of how much quality are you willing to sacrifice in favor authenticity/originality; and at what point do you cross the line from using modern technology to bring a picture's quality to its fullest potential, to actually making a revision of the original picture? I don't think there is an easy answer.

------

Eg. Last week I watched Rear Window for the first time. It is one of several Hitchcock movies whose film had eroded terribly before a MAJOR restoration was done. In the dvd's spacial features, they had a long documentary on the movie, and the last ten minute so is about the restoration. (It's great stuff!) Anyway, they showed a comparison between how the film looked before the restoration and how it looked after; and there is one nighttime scene in James Stewart's apartment where after they restored the film, I could tell that the lighting had changed significantly; in the original film, the apartment was much lighter in that scene; when they restored it, not only did they fix all the damage to the film, but they made the apartment look much darker. I can't tell you whether the restorers intended to do that, but the fact is that the lighting in the apartment is significantly different -- so much so, that it bothered even me, and I only consider myself a moderate purist (except when it comes to Leone, where I am the biggest purist in the world  ;)) I would hope that the restorers didn't do that on purpose, but the fact remains that on the dvd, the apartment is lit differently than it should be in that scene 9and probably many others as well). Should they not have restored the film but issues the dvd as a direct, unrestored transfer with all that damage and grain and lines in the film? obviously not. Could they have fixed the damage while keeping the proper lighting? I don't know. This is why restoration is such a difficult task, and it's a task that must be handles with great care and only by those with a fanatical interest in maintaining accuracy to the degree possible. And there are no right answers.

I am just thankful that we live in an age when so many old movie are being restored and almost any movie you want is available on dvd, with new ones being released every week  :)


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on May 30, 2012, 02:27:11 PM
But grain has nothing to do with modern or olde films. Grain is a natural element of every film stock, and filtering it out is only a concession to an ignorant audience who thinks that grain is a fault, or which thinks that a Blu with visible grain (if one watches it big enough) wasn't correctly remastered.
The same ignorant audience for which a 5.1. audio is made from a mono source. Cause "if it hasn't 5.1. sound I don't buy it".



Title: Re: GBU Special Edition dvd and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on May 30, 2012, 02:43:27 PM


6) Angel Eyes and Commandant of Betterville Camp
IMO, this is a very important scene.
(Much of the information from this entry is based on Frayling's commentary):
The arguments that Angel Eyes makes to the commandant were the same arguments that Henry Wirz, the commandant of Andersonville made to justify the horrors there -- that there were not enough supplies and not enough guards, and that the only way to enforce discipline was to use brutal tactics.
(Leone chose to portray a Union POW camp because he felt that since history is written by the victors, Confederate POW concentration camps like Andersonville were the ones that became notorious to history, but the Union also ran brutal POW concentration camps. So he wanted to set the record straight and portray a Union concentration camp; hence Betterville. But it was actually based on Andersonville).
Therefore, IMO this scene definitely should have been included.





This scene is in the 161 min version.

A later part of a scene with the Union officer at the bridge is not. And a small part when they place the dynamite under the bridge


Title: Re: GBU Special Edition dvd and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 30, 2012, 02:49:20 PM
This scene is in the 161 min version.

A later part of a scene with the Union officer at the bridge is not. And a small part when they place the dynamite under the bridge

thanks for the correction. I watched Frayling's commentary a couple of weeks ago and thought he mentioned that the scene with the crippled commandant was not in teh 161 min. version. But now I remember that he may have actually said it was not in the BRITISH version (which was only 148 minutes). I will update my initial post shortly.


RE: Grain: yes, it is an element of film, but I don't see it as an objective of film. If filmmakers in the 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's, had the ability to make movies without any grain at all, I don't think they would have intentionally included grain in the picture.
 And grain is not a necessary element of digital equipment (or if it is, then to a much lesser extent). I don't see anything wrong with upgrading a movie so that the quality is similar to digital quality; I don't see why we must seek to preserve the film look, which is of significantly poorer quality than digital.

But the fact is that, considering the available technology, those old films did have grain. So I understand why people who watched movies for all those decades with grain would resent the grain being removed from the film now; the view it, as cigar joe said, as removing abrush stroke from the Mona Lisa. Only difference is that unlike a brush stroke from the Mona Lisa which is specific and defined, I don't believe each drop of grain was inserted in the specific place for a reasob; it's just there as part of how film looked.... I recently bought the dvd of the 161 min. version of GBU; it doesn't look like any restoration or remastering or any work was done, looks basically like a straight transfer from the old film. thepicture quality IMO is far, far inferior to the restored SE dvd.


Title: Re: GBU Special Edition dvd and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on May 30, 2012, 03:08:00 PM
I don't see why we must seek to preserve the film look, which is of significantly poorer quality than digital.

Mainly because it isn't.

Digital film has btw also a resolution. It is called pixels instead of grain. Make a digital image big enough and you can see the pixels. Film, no matter if it is 35 mm or digital, still consists of picture points. And the theoretical resolution (=the amount of picture points) of 35 mm film is (and was already in the 60s) much higher (= more picture points = more sharpness) than the digital 2k standard which is used at the moment for digital projection.

Filtering the grain out doesn't result in a sharper picture but only in a loss of sharpness. The image becomes soft. Squishy


Title: Re: GBU Special Edition dvd and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 30, 2012, 03:15:53 PM
Mainly because it isn't.

Digital film has btw also a resolution. It is called pixels instead of grain. Make a digital image big enough and you can see the pixels. Film, no matter if it is 35 mm or digital, still consists of picture points. And the theoretical resolution (=the amount of picture points) of 35 mm film is (and was already in the 60s) much higher (= more picture points = more sharpness) than the digital 2k standard which is used at the moment for digital projection.

Filtering the grain out doesn't result in a sharper picture but only in a loss of sharpness. The image becomes soft. Squishy

yea, all picture is made up of tiny elements, grain for film and pixels for digital. so if you blew up a digital picture enough (lowering the ratio of gigabytes to the size of the screen I guess?) then you would see pixels. But digital technology is so advanced today that you really don't see pixels for films released on dvd today (and even more so with blu ray cuz it has even more memory gigabytes of capability); so even though theoretically you would see it if it was blown up enough, the dvd's have enough capacity you really don't see the pixels, even for the biggest screens.... I don't know if I am using the correct terms; my knowledge of technical stuff is almost non-existent; all I know is what I see, and to me, the picture quality on the SE dvd is infinitely better than the one on the 161 minute dvd. One looks like you are watching an hdtv, the other like you are watching a tv from the 1980's


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 30, 2012, 03:49:52 PM
As for the cuts to the theatrical version of GBU: the UK version was only 148 minutes long, so it was missing 13 minutes that were in the USA theatrical version. (I believe the following scenes were cut from the UK version):

I) The entire scene of Tuco in the gun shop

IMO this is not a very important scene; the American version would have been better off if it had cut this scene and kept the one of Angel Eyes at the Confederate fort

II) The scene with Angek Eyes and the Commandant of Betterville

III) Tuco smashing Wallace's head against the rock after he jumps from the train (for censorship reasons).


Please let me know if I am missing anything or have erroneously included anything. I am unaware whether this 148 minute version exists today in any format; my sources for these cuts are what Frayling said on the commentary; but I watched it a few weeks ago so I am sure I am missing something.

I seem to vaguely recall that he may have mentioned two additional scenes that were cut from the UK version: the one of Angel Eyes getting info from the "half-soldier" at Valverde; and the one of Angel Eyes delivering a beating to and getting info from Bill Carson's girlfriend. If anyone can confirm this for me one or or the other I'll update the posts accordingly. Gracias  O0


One problem with all these cuts is that it reduces the role of Angel eyes even further. As it is, The Good and The Ugly have a far greater presence in the movie than The Bad, and all these cuts make it even worse. (and the further cuts in the UK version are even worse than that; it's basically The Good and The Ugly with a tiny supporting role for The Bad. Therefore, if there must be cuts, I'd have preferred no cuts for the Angel Eyes character, to make the roles somewhat closer to equal  :)

(And I am sure glad I live in the era of dvd's, restored and uncut movies, and little grain.... It would have been better if I could see the movies in theaters [and they do occasionally show up in theaters in special showings] and there are so few good movies being released these days, but being able to watch almost any movie I want to easily on dvd, restored and uncut, is a great privilege)




Title: Re: GBU Special Edition dvd and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 30, 2012, 03:53:58 PM
...all I know is what I see, and to me, the picture quality on the SE dvd is infinitely better than the one on the 161 minute dvd. One looks like you are watching an hdtv, the other like you are watching a tv from the 1980's

What are your thoughts on the screenshot comparison link I posted above? Which do you think looks better? MGM or Mondo BD?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: cigar joe on May 30, 2012, 04:53:46 PM
The Italian looks "warmer" the other "colder", that is the main difference I notice.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 30, 2012, 05:36:06 PM
Just wanted to emphasize the point that Leone's preferred version of the movie was the entire restored version minus the Cave Scene, and with a slightly longer version of the scene where Tuco is tortured. (the film of that scene was too damaged for restoration into the movie, so it was included on the dvd/BR as an extra).
 Therefore, I believe that  is the "definitive version" of the movie, as in, The Sergio Leone version and the only version that should have ever been released.
It is the definitive version for the Italian cut. However, since the English dub was done only after the film was edited to 161, there is no such thing as a definitive English language version longer than 161. Sure, you can say that Leone would have liked to have GBU run as long as BBC, but it never happened in his lifetime. Therefore, any posthumous tinkering cannot be considered "definitive." It can't even, by definition, be considered sanctioned. Can we say that Leone would have approved of John Kirk's solution to re-dub the film for the 2003 "restoration"? We cannot. What we can do is listen to the final product and howl in execration at the liberties taken to the audio. How can this version be considered faithful to the Master's vision? To the Leoneaste, it is anathema.

What can be done? A simple solution is available: watch the longer Leone-approved version in Italian, and the shorter Leone-approved version in English. This satisfies our desire to see all the photographed material extant, but allows us to do so in director-approved forms.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 30, 2012, 06:08:59 PM
It is the definitive version for the Italian cut. However, since the English dub was done only after the film was edited to 161, there is no such thing as a definitive English language version longer than 161. Sure, you can say that Leone would have liked to have GBU run as long as BBC, but it never happened in his lifetime. Therefore, any posthumous tinkering cannot be considered "definitive." It can't even, by definition, be considered sanctioned. Can we say that Leone would have approved of John Kirk's solution to re-dub the film for the 2003 "restoration"? We cannot. What we can do is listen to the final product and howl in execration at the liberties taken to the audio. How can this version be considered faithful to the Master's vision? To the Leoneaste, it is anathema.

What can be done? A simple solution is available: watch the longer Leone-approved version in Italian, and the shorter Leone-approved version in English. This satisfies our desire to see all the photographed material extant, but allows us to do so in director-approved forms.

I really don't know anything about audio and therefore my comments here have stuck to picture quality. My understanding is that the original English mono is available on the dvd and BR, so doesn't that satisfy everyone?

As for the dubbing: yes, the added scenes weren't dubbed until 2003, so in that sense it is not an exact restoration. But once they did restore those scenes, I am happy they dubbed them into English as they did (elderly Wallach and Eastwood, voice actor for Van Cleef), rather than just keeping the Italian audio. Btw, as an American, you have a better option for the full movie than to watch it in Italian: just watch the unrestored 161 min. dvd; it has all the deleted scenes (I believe with Italian audio and available English subtitles).

Even though the dub is not exactly as it would have sounded if it had been released in 1967, I don't see how you can consider a version that was cut by UA to be a "definitive version." Maybe you prefer it cuz you think those scenes are unnecessary; but IMO definitive = as Leone wanted it. And for me, having those scenes even with the 2003 dub is better than not having them at all, or watching it in Italian. I prefer to at least hear Wallach and Eastwood's voices, even if it is 35 years later, than to hear a couple of Italian dudes who sound nothing at all like them.  For me, the 2003 restoration is closer to Leone's vision of the English-language version of GBU than the 161MV is. (Maybe one day I'll look into foreign versions, for now I am just focusing on the American ones).

Don't get me wrong; I think the 161MV of GBU is still an awesome movie. But I prefer the 2003 version. I have never heard the mono audio but one of these days I'll give it a try. Also, being a kid from New York City who has never touched a gun or seen one fire (or seen one period except on a policeman's belt!), I don't know anything at all about gunshots; but I understand that they changed them for the restoration, and I can certainly see how that would irk people who know about that stuff. (What can I say, sometimes ignorance is bliss. I sometimes yearn for my blissful early days of Leone--movie-watching, before i ever knew a damn thing about restorations, dubs, messed up audio, and deleted scenes  ;))


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Groggy on May 30, 2012, 08:09:34 PM
I) The entire scene of Tuco in the gun shop

IMO this is not a very important scene; the American version would have been better off if it had cut this scene and kept the one of Angel Eyes at the Confederate fort

I think this comment discredits any of your arguments about artistic integrity or whatever you've been blathering about.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Groggy on May 30, 2012, 08:34:21 PM
It is the definitive version for the Italian cut. However, since the English dub was done only after the film was edited to 161, there is no such thing as a definitive English language version longer than 161. Sure, you can say that Leone would have liked to have GBU run as long as BBC, but it never happened in his lifetime. Therefore, any posthumous tinkering cannot be considered "definitive." It can't even, by definition, be considered sanctioned. Can we say that Leone would have approved of John Kirk's solution to re-dub the film for the 2003 "restoration"? We cannot. What we can do is listen to the final product and howl in execration at the liberties taken to the audio. How can this version be considered faithful to the Master's vision? To the Leoneaste, it is anathema.

What can be done? A simple solution is available: watch the longer Leone-approved version in Italian, and the shorter Leone-approved version in English. This satisfies our desire to see all the photographed material extant, but allows us to do so in director-approved forms.

This is a fair argument. I'd add that re-dubbing added scenes isn't a requirement. Lots of Spaghettis and giallos have been released with added scenes in original Italian (I remember watching Deep Red in this fashion). A bit jarring but not an invalid approach, and certainly no worse than a) completely remixing the foley, b) having ancient Eastwood and Wallach plus imitation Cleef doing the voices.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Cusser on May 30, 2012, 08:52:56 PM
Nothing can compare to seeing these films in theaters, first run, big screen, when originally released......the right place at the right time !!!


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 30, 2012, 09:41:32 PM
I think this comment discredits any of your arguments about artistic integrity or whatever you've been blathering about.

my bad, I didn't word my statement properly. I did not mean that it is a useless scene (such as eg. the scene with Tuco in the Cave or at the Confederate Bivouac at Apache Canyon). Rather, I meant to say that it is not the most important scene from a NARRATIVE perspective, and therefore -- while I prefer that that scene is kept in the movie -- I believe that it is less important than the one with Angel eyes at the Confederate Fort. I believe the latter is far more important, cuz it is actually a part of the narrative, while the scene in the gun shop is not.

Of course, with Leone's movies, narrative is one of the least important aspects of the movie; the plot of GBU could have easily been done in less than half the time that Leone did it. Each scene is just great fun in and of itself. But my point is that once the American version did remove several scenes, I would have preferred that they remove the Gun Shop scene rather than the Confederate Fort scene. It's a question of relative importance, not absolute importance. And besides for the narrative aspect, there are three additional reasons why i prefer the Fort scene to the Gun Shop scene: 1) because it contains an important element of the theme about the destruction of war; 2) because as it is, Angel Eyes has a very small part in the film with all these cuts, and I prefer that the 3 parts are closer to equal; 3) and because it is the only scene that shows Angel Eyes with some shred of humanity (at least in comparison to the warmongers), and therefore actually contains a personality element of one of the central characters of the film, both in an absolute sense (that he has a shred of humanity), as well as in a relative sense that in comparison to the horrors of war, the term "Bad" for any individual criminal is very questionable, and one of the points of the title of the movie is to mess around with and question the labels that cinema on its characters

--------

p.s. please don't feel compelled to respond to any "blather."... While most of us seem to be able to either respond to or ignore other people's posts without constant lame attempts at insults, you seem to think that your posts can't stand on their substance alone.... If you don't watch out, one of these days you might actually call someone "fatso."  ::)


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on May 31, 2012, 02:17:47 AM
The gun shop scene is surely absolutely unimportant for the film's narrative (except for those of course who may say without this scene we do not know where Tuco got his gun ;) ), but it is a hell of a scene, it is Leone at his best for both directing and storytelling (within that scene). It is exactly such a scene which shows Leone's mastership, and which shows how different his films were back then.
And then again the loss of this scene would maybe damage the film's rhythm considerably.

D&d I can't believe that you would sacrifice such an essential Leone scene.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on May 31, 2012, 02:24:20 AM
This is a fair argument. I'd add that re-dubbing added scenes isn't a requirement. Lots of Spaghettis and giallos have been released with added scenes in original Italian (I remember watching Deep Red in this fashion). A bit jarring but not an invalid approach, and certainly no worse than a) completely remixing the foley, b) having ancient Eastwood and Wallach plus imitation Cleef doing the voices.

In Germany lots of films are restored by simply adding the scenes in their original language with subs. I'm used to this. And I would never again watch GBU in the 161 min version, simply cause it is a cut version.

But the dubbing could have been done much better. Voices change over the years and using the original speakers is not a good idea. The German voices for the restored GBU scenes are also very bad, and funnily the original speakers sound worse than the one which was substituted due to the death of LvC's speaker.
But there are meanwhile restored films in which the dubbing job was done much better, and surely with a lesser budget than MGM had. In the case of GBU there was even already a TV dub for the added scenes, which sounded better than the MGM dub.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: noodles_leone on May 31, 2012, 05:33:19 AM
But the dubbing cut have been done much better. Voices change over theh years and using the original speakers is not a good idea. The German voices for the restored GBU scenes are also very bad, and funnily the original speakers sound worse than the one which was substituted due to the death of LvC's speaker.
But there are meanwhile restored films in which the dubbing job was done much better, and surely with a lesser budget than MGM had. In the case of GBU there was even already a TV dub for the added scenes, whihc sounded better than the MGM dub.

My guess is that all the budget went into "let's record Clint Eastwood, and write that on the DVD". It was probably the smartest thing from a marketing stanpoint, which has nothing to do with artistic integrity.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Cusser on May 31, 2012, 07:05:45 AM
I think the gun shop scene is mportant, and not just because of its homage to Public Enemy.

shows new pistols not plentiful because of Civil War

shows Tuco's expertise with mechanics of guns

shows Tuco's shooting accuracy (important, he later teams with Blondie to dispatch Angel Eyes' gang, and was ready to take them all on by himself); remember, Tuco "knew" he hadn't missed with that last gun shot, knew he'd hit his target

shows (correctly, for the time period) that Indians relegated to sub-human level, were targets at the gun shop range)

shows Tuco had focus to leave whiskey behind, to focus on his revenge plan

shows Tuco would never think of killing the gun shop owner (kill the witness)

shows Tuco making the gun lanyard, important for later bathtub scene

So, like showing Tuco could read a little earlier (turns out important for cemetery scene), little things can mean a lot....


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Groggy on May 31, 2012, 07:08:08 AM
I'd agree that the fort scene is much more functional than the gun shop scene. In this case, though I'd argue the latter is far better as a self-contained sequence. It's funny for a start, but does a lot to further establish Tuco's character as a crafty, resourceful individual. It also establishes (through Tuco's shooting prowess) that "the Ugly" is an equal to his counterparts, not just a comic relief clown.

The fort sequence is the best of the restored scenes, but that's like picking your favorite strain of the flu. Sure, it addresses a small narrative gap, but one that never bothered me. Angel Eyes showing up at the POW camp without explanation is much more jarring, and in my mind dramatically effective. The thematic elements about war are touched upon quite heavily elsewhere. This bit is bald exposition that seems out of place in such an elliptical film. The movie is not lesser for its absence.

As for blather, what else do you call a post that says in 1,000 words what a sentence or two could adequately express?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 31, 2012, 09:39:40 AM
I think we already know that Tuco is pretty good with guns. He dispatched 3 guys in the opening scene (while chewing on a drumstick!)

Cusser:  I don't disagree with you on the importance of the Gun Shop scene. It's great fun and establishes Tuco's character. I just think the Confederate Fort scene is more important. Extolling the virtues of the Gun Shop scene isn't enough; you have to address why you think it is more important than the Confederate Fort scene.

But I should also mention that I never actually saw the 161MV (I recently bought the old dvd but haven't actually watched it yet) -- and when I do watch it, in back of my mind I would know why Angel Eyes shows up in Betterville, cuz I am aware of the scene on the Confederate Fort -- so it's really hard for me to know how I would have felt about that narrative gap of Angel Eyes showing up at Betterville, if I'd actually seen the movie for 35 years without that Confederate Fort scene.

[Groggy: I don't think this is the 1st or 2nd or 3rd time you've felt compelled to include stupid rude comments. At many people. I'm not offended, it just sounds so silly. Anyway, this is the last  I'll say of it here; I certainly don't want this to become another good thread that starts evolving into dumb fights  ::)


Title: Re: GBU Special Edition dvd and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 31, 2012, 09:41:38 AM
What are your thoughts on the screenshot comparison link I posted above? Which do you think looks better? MGM or Mondo BD?

I'm not sure exactly how to use that link and which shot is from which dvd


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on May 31, 2012, 12:30:49 PM


But I should also mention that I never actually saw the 161MV (I recently bought the old dvd but haven't actually watched it yet) -- and when I do watch it, in back of my mind I would know why Angel Eyes shows up in Betterville, cuz I am aware of the scene on the Confederate Fort -- so it's really hard for me to know how I would have felt about that narrative gap of Angel Eyes showing up at Betterville, if I'd actually seen the movie for 35 years without that Confederate Fort scene.



I assume for most people there wasn't a narrative gap.
The way the scene which introduces LvC in the prison camp is shot made for me always clear that he wasn't there by happenstance, but obviously only for the purpose to have there the best chance to find Carson. When I first read about the Fort scene it only confirmed what I already had assumed.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: cigar joe on May 31, 2012, 02:35:24 PM
I assume for most people there wasn't a narrative gap.
The way the scene which introduces LvC in the prison camp is shot made for me always clear that he wasn't there by happenstance, but obviously only for the purpose to have there the best chance to find Carson. When I first read about the Fort scene it only confirmed what I already had assumed.


Yea that is the way I always figured it too.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Groggy on May 31, 2012, 02:58:24 PM
The main thing I get from Angel Eyes' sudden appearance at the camp is that Blondie and Tuco are in trouble. Forgot plot concerns.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 31, 2012, 03:05:56 PM
I really don't know anything about audio and therefore my comments here have stuck to picture quality. My understanding is that the original English mono is available on the dvd and BR . . .
Nope. http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=11160.0


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 31, 2012, 03:35:04 PM
Nope. http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=11160.0

But the old dvd of the 161MV has the original mono audio, correct? As well as the proper gunshots, and the deleted scenes as special features with Italian dub and English subtitles. And it's dirt cheap (I bought it used on eBay, I think it was like 3 dollars). So that disc should satisfy everyone! Use the BR for the terrific Frayling commentary and extra features, and the old dvd for the movie   :)



Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Groggy on May 31, 2012, 06:19:57 PM
Sounds fair to me. O0


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Novecento on May 31, 2012, 07:24:10 PM
Nope. http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=11160.0

At least the "mono" version allows you to watch it without the audio jumping around based on the speaker's profile relative to the camera.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on June 01, 2012, 02:43:02 AM
The main thing I get from Angel Eyes' sudden appearance at the camp is that Blondie and Tuco are in trouble. Forgot plot concerns.

That too, of course ...


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: iceman on June 03, 2012, 08:17:16 AM
The gun shop scene is surely absolutely unimportant for the film's narrative (except for those of course who may say without this scene we do not know where Tuco got his gun ;) ), but it is a hell of a scene, it is Leone at his best for both directing and storytelling (within that scene). It is exactly such a scene which shows Leone's mastership, and which shows how different his films were back then.
And then again the loss of this scene would maybe damage the film's rhythm considerably.

D&d I can't believe that you would sacrifice such an essential Leone scene.

The gun shop scene is important...I dont think people watching the film would have even thought about where Tuco got his gun from...they would assume he got it from somewhere in the town...what is important is that it shows Tuco to be as good or maybe almost as good with a gun as Angel eyes and Blondie, making the final Trio scene even more exciting...I seem to remember first thinking..."this should be bloody good" when they moved into the centre circle......

ICE


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on June 03, 2012, 08:36:32 AM
I dont think people watching the film would have even thought about where Tuco got his gun from...they would assume he got it from somewhere in the town...

Hmm ... that was obviously only a joke from me ...


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 03, 2012, 04:05:56 PM
one thing about Westerns, no matter how broke someone is in one scene, by the next scene he always somehow manages to have a horse, a gun, and a gun belt full of bullets (not that he needs 'em cuz nobody ever reloads; those 6 bullets in the chamber last forever  ;)) Then again, Tuco doesn't have a gun belt, he keeps his gun in his pocket on a string around his neck. I guess he must keep his bullets in his other pocket.... though we never see 'em   ;)


Now writing all this shit starts me thinking: when Tuco is taken prisoner, he obviously doesn't have a gun anymore; then when he jumps off the train, he tries breaking his handcuffs with Wallace's pistol but uis unable to, and throws the pistol away in frustration. Then when he cuts loose and jumps onto the next train, he somehow has a pistol by the time he arrives in the next town and goes to take a bath... and somehow he also has the string that he used for his pistol before he was taken prisoner! And not only that, but he must have somehow gotten ahold of the same pistol he had before, cuz Blondie recognized that it was Tuco firing just by the sound of the pistol! Well, I'd sure like to know how Tuco got ahold of that shit by the time he reached he went to take a bath in the bombed out hotel???


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 03, 2012, 04:11:33 PM
 re: the picture quality of the blu ray: I just noticed that DVD Beaver only shows the Italian Blu Ray disc http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDCompare10/the_good_the_bad_and_the_ugly_.htm cuz he just says that he assumes it will look exactly like the American BR. I haven't seen any BR version besides the American, but I've read some of you here who believe the Italian BR is much better, and if that's correct, then maybe you should contact Beaver and tell him to get his shit together and actually make a comparison with the American BR cuz it is NOT the same as the Italian BR?
(btw, from the screen caps and Tooze's comments, it looks like the faces on that Italian BR are also very red (just as they are on the American BR)


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Cusser on June 03, 2012, 05:49:08 PM
Of course all the confiscated weaopns were on that train that Tuco jumped on, duh !!!

Besides: Blondie recognizes the cadence of Tuco's firing.  Five shots, then one.


Of course, I always felt that since Tuco knew so much about pistols, that he could've gotten Wallace's to work.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 03, 2012, 06:04:05 PM
same thing with TMWNN in FOD: he is in hiding and stuck in the mine shaft, in a town with virtually no commerce or gun shops, yet somehow he has an endless supply of bullets  ;D

that's part of the "language of the Western" -- horses, guns, and bullets are always magically "there," with no questions asked  ;)


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: cigar joe on June 03, 2012, 06:22:45 PM
one thing about Westerns, no matter how broke someone is in one scene, by the next scene he always somehow manages to have a horse, a gun, and a gun belt full of bullets (not that he needs 'em cuz nobody ever reloads; those 6 bullets in the chamber last forever  ;)) Then again, Tuco doesn't have a gun belt, he keeps his gun in his pocket on a string around his neck. I guess he must keep his bullets in his other pocket.... though we never see 'em   ;)


Now writing all this shit starts me thinking: when Tuco is taken prisoner, he obviously doesn't have a gun anymore; then when he jumps off the train, he tries breaking his handcuffs with Wallace's pistol but uis unable to, and throws the pistol away in frustration. Then when he cuts loose and jumps onto the next train, he somehow has a pistol by the time he arrives in the next town and goes to take a bath... and somehow he also has the string that he used for his pistol before he was taken prisoner! And not only that, but he must have somehow gotten ahold of the same pistol he had before, cuz Blondie recognized that it was Tuco firing just by the sound of the pistol! Well, I'd sure like to know how Tuco got ahold of that shit by the time he reached he went to take a bath in the bombed out hotel???

You must never have read the Timeline thread or the Every Gun Makes its own Tune thread, or you'd know the answers to your questions.  ::)


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 03, 2012, 06:44:58 PM
You must never have read the Timeline thread or the Every Gun Makes its own Tune thread, or you'd know the answers to your questions.  ::)

I read parts of the former but have never seen the latter  ::)


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: cigar joe on June 03, 2012, 07:50:33 PM
I read parts of the former but have never seen the latter  ::)

Its under one of the Gun threads


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Cusser on June 04, 2012, 07:34:13 AM
Use the BR for the terrific Frayling commentary and extra features, and the old dvd for the movie   :)

I don't have Blu-Ray player, so I can't just get get the Blu-RaY GBU disc.  Could someone please help out The Cuss and capture the Frayling audio onto a DVD/CD disc or cassette?  That would sure be great !!!


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: cigar joe on June 04, 2012, 02:51:32 PM
I don't have Blu-Ray player, so I can't just get get the Blu-RaY GBU disc.  Could someone please help out The Cuss and capture the Frayling audio onto a DVD/CD disc or cassette?  That would sure be great !!!

Second that for cigar joe  ;)


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on June 04, 2012, 03:25:07 PM
I doubt that there is much not already written in his book.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 05, 2012, 01:12:32 PM
sure, I'll make a copy of the Frayling commentary on audio cassette  :)


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 05, 2012, 05:01:14 PM
as we know, in the bonus features of the American SE dvd and BR discs, there is a longer version of the Tuco Torture/concentration camp orchestra scene; it was not restored to the movie itself cuz the film was damaged too much. There is a bit more dialogue in this extended version, all in Italian. When I put on the English subtitles for this scene, it just says "Speaking Italian." NO FUCKING SHIT, JOHN COCKSUCKER JERK! We know it's Italian; that's why the fuck we need English subtitles, you fucking idiot!

Anyway, if anyone here speaks Italian, has 7 minutes to watch this scene in the Bonus Materials of the American SE dvd/BR disc, and translate the dialogue into English, I -- and I suspect many of my fellow English-speaking Leone fans -- would be mighty appreciative! (It shouldn't be much work, as there is very little dialogue during the scene; most of it is just the playing of the Story of a Soldier and the torturing).

Grazie!




Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 05, 2012, 05:24:12 PM
a little update on my initial post breaking down the 8 deleted scenes:

RE: #5) The cut scene with Blonide and Tuco consulting a map, and Blondie's comment RE: the dead soldiers, "those men aren't worried about anything anymore, are they?" -- maybe that bit of dialogue is actually better cut, maybe it's mentioned too clearly. Perhaps you can argue that just showing the dead bodies would be enough for the juxtaposition of the pursuit of gold and the dead soldiers, and having Blondie say it clearly is a bit much.

RE: #7) just watched it again last night, that scene with Aldo Giuffree's speech DEFINITELY should have been kept in its entirety. It's an important part of the movie's statement about war (and as Frayling points out in his commentary, is from one of the many works (I forgot if it's a book or a movie) that Leone references in the Civil War scenes. Aside from the scene of Angel Eyes visiting the Confederate fort, this scene is IMO the most important of the deleted scenes and definitely should have been kept in the movie.

Overall, while I of course would prefer that the movie was kept exactly as Leone wanted it, if you have to choose scenes to be deleted,  IMO deleted scenes # 2,4,5, and 6 are not very essential, while#2,7, and 8 definitely should have been kept in the movie -- that's Angel eyes at Confederate fort, the extended scene with Aldo Giuffre, and the extended scene with Blondie and Tuco under the bridge. And of course, #1, the Cave scene, should have been deleted.




Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: cigar joe on October 23, 2012, 10:00:49 AM
finally synced the Frayling commentary to the film last night aside from the few mistakes enjoyed it immensely  O0 O0 O0   


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 23, 2012, 10:13:23 AM
finally synced the Frayling commentary to the film last night aside from the few mistakes enjoyed it immensely  O0 O0 O0  

yes, it's an awesome commentary.

Did you watch the tape while playing the disc on silent?

When I initially recorded the commentary onto the tapes, every once in a while I stated what time in the movie we were up to, so the commentary could be synched appropriately. But I don't know if Big C kept those "time stamps" in when he ripped the tape onto a cd.

Anyway, I have now put the file from the discs he sent me onto my computer, so I can mail the discs to anyone who needs them.


ATTENTION, YALL!

I HAVE CD'S WITH THE AUDIO FILE OF FRAYLING'S COMMENTARY TO GBU, (WHICH IS ONLY AVAILABLE ON THE GBU BLU RAY DISC).  IF, AND ONLY IF, YOU DO NOT OWN A BLU RAY PLAYER  AND YOU WANT TO HEAR FRAYLING'S COMMENTARY TO GBU, YOU CAN SEND ME YOU ADDRESS IN A PRIVATE MESSAGE, AND I WILL MAIL YOU THE CD. FIRST COME FIRST SERVED  ;)


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: cigar joe on October 23, 2012, 04:52:41 PM
yes, it's an awesome commentary.

Did you watch the tape while playing the disc on silent?

When I initially recorded the commentary onto the tapes, every once in a while I stated what time in the movie we were up to, so the commentary could be synched appropriately. But I don't know if Big C kept those "time stamps" in when he ripped the tape onto a cd.

Anyway, I have now put the file from the discs he sent me onto my computer, so I can mail the discs to anyone who needs them.


ATTENTION, YALL!

I HAVE CD'S WITH THE AUDIO FILE OF FRAYLING'S COMMENTARY TO GBU, (WHICH IS ONLY AVAILABLE ON THE GBU BLU RAY DISC).  IF, AND ONLY IF, YOU DO NOT OWN A BLU RAY PLAYER  AND YOU WANT TO HEAR FRAYLING'S COMMENTARY TO GBU, YOU CAN SEND ME YOU ADDRESS IN A PRIVATE MESSAGE, AND I WILL MAIL YOU THE CD. FIRST COME FIRST SERVED  ;)
Yea it was easy to keep it accurate with the "time stamps" I kept the DVD sound down enough so i could hear the music cues also   


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 23, 2012, 07:11:47 PM
Yea it was easy to keep it accurate with the "time stamps" I kept the DVD sound down enough so i could hear the music cues also  


so you were indeed able to hear my occasional verbal "time stamps"? Awesome


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on February 27, 2013, 10:15:19 AM
Can anyone confirm whether the Italian Mondo GBU blu ray is region-free and will play in my American blu ray player (which is Region A NTSC)? http://www.amazon.com/Buono-Il-Brutto-Cattivo/dp/B00ABXSTI6/ref=sr_1_3?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1361984689&sr=1-3&keywords=il+buono+il+brutto+il+cattivo


I see that it's officially listed as Region B PAL. But the Italian blu rays of FOD (Ripley's) and FAFDM (Mondo) are also listed as Region B-PAL, but in fact the main feature is region-free, and plays fine in my blu ray player. (It's only the bonus features that are in PAL.... as for the main feature, FOD has the English audio option while FAFDM doesn't; what can you do).

So I would appreciate if anyone can confirm whether the main feature of the Mondo GBY blu ray disc will play in my American blu ray player? if it will, then I will purchase this blu ray disc. Thanks!



Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Jordan Krug on February 27, 2013, 10:38:19 AM
Can anyone confirm whether the Italian Mondo GBU blu ray is region-free and will play in my American blu ray player (which is Region A NTSC)? http://www.amazon.com/Buono-Il-Brutto-Cattivo/dp/B00ABXSTI6/ref=sr_1_3?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1361984689&sr=1-3&keywords=il+buono+il+brutto+il+cattivo


I see that it's officially listed as Region B PAL. But the Italian blu rays of FOD (Ripley's) and FAFDM (Mondo) are also listed as Region B-PAL, but in fact the main feature is region-free, and plays fine in my blu ray player. (It's only the bonus features that are in PAL.... as for the main feature, FOD has the English audio option while FAFDM doesn't; what can you do).

So I would appreciate if anyone can confirm whether the main feature of the Mondo GBY blu ray disc will play in my American blu ray player? if it will, then I will purchase this blu ray disc. Thanks!


Yes, I have this disc, it plays the feature in my North American ps3 with no problems. The transfer is amazing (much sharper and less cropped than the U.S. which has been noise reduced to death) but it only has italian audio and there is a very annoying flaw with the transfer - almost every cut "jumps" - the frame before or after the cut is never quite right as I think over time, the splices have shrunk, or the glue they used caused the scanner to "bump" on most of the cuts.  Just so you know!



Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on February 27, 2013, 10:53:20 AM
...and there is a very annoying flaw with the transfer - almost every cut "jumps" - the frame before or after the cut is never quite right as I think over time, the splices have shrunk, or the glue they used caused the scanner to "bump" on most of the cuts.  Just so you know!



Funny, I don't have this issue with my BD. I have a Sony BDP S370 player.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on February 27, 2013, 11:15:27 AM
Yes, I have this disc, it plays the feature in my North American ps3 with no problems. The transfer is amazing (much sharper and less cropped than the U.S. which has been noise reduced to death) but it only has italian audio and there is a very annoying flaw with the transfer - almost every cut "jumps" - the frame before or after the cut is never quite right as I think over time, the splices have shrunk, or the glue they used caused the scanner to "bump" on most of the cuts.  Just so you know!




Thanks! I just ordered it  O0


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Jordan Krug on February 27, 2013, 01:42:45 PM
Funny, I don't have this issue with my BD. I have a Sony BDP S370 player.


Your talking about the mondo bd? It would be there on every disk, take a look at the scene where Tuco first meets blondie, there's one shot where the film jumps halfway up the screen....maybe because I work as an editor for a living I notice the jumps more than other people (the North American disk doesn't have them)


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on February 27, 2013, 01:52:20 PM
does the Mondo BR have all the same scenes/shots as the MGM?
What about the Tuco beating scene? Does it have the longer version, or  is it  the same as the MGM shortened version of the beating scene? (The full scene is provided only as a bonus feature on the MGM disc, with Italian language audio only; I am wondering if the Mondo version includes that scene in full as part of the movie?
And what about the Tuco in the Cave scene? Does it include that scene as well?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on February 27, 2013, 02:37:10 PM

Your talking about the mondo bd? It would be there on every disk, take a look at the scene where Tuco first meets blondie, there's one shot where the film jumps halfway up the screen....maybe because I work as an editor for a living I notice the jumps more than other people (the North American disk doesn't have them)

I've read your post(s) in the past about this issue. I even saw an image you attached to one of your posts showing the problem but never noticed it. I just watched it again in "slo-mo" and now I see what you're saying. Good eye! But it's subtle enough that these untrained eyes didn't pick up on it despite numerous views.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on February 27, 2013, 03:08:41 PM
does the Mondo BR have all the same scenes/shots as the MGM?
What about the Tuco beating scene? Does it have the longer version, or  is it  the same as the MGM shortened version of the beating scene? (The full scene is provided only as a bonus feature on the MGM disc, with Italian language audio only; I am wondering if the Mondo version includes that scene in full as part of the movie?
And what about the Tuco in the Cave scene? Does it include that scene as well?

The longer beating scene was never released in any form as part of the film. Not theatrically, not on home video or TV. Still the Mondo will have a slightly different version of that scene, and as far as I know no Italian DVD contains the cave scene.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on February 27, 2013, 03:22:02 PM
The longer beating scene was never released in any form as part of the film. Not theatrically, not on home video or TV. Still the Mondo will have a slightly different version of that scene, and as far as I know no Italian DVD contains the cave scene.


In the bonus features of the MGM dvd disc #2, the text reads:



"The Extended Tuco Torture Scene: Because of negative damage, the full-lengthpremiere version of this scene could not be restored to the film reconstruction of THE GOOD, THE BAD, AND THE UGLY. An archival print has been transferred for this special edition disc."

If this text is correct, that would mean that this long version of the beating scene was shown only at the Rome premiere, and then removed by Leone before theatrical release (just like the cave scene).

It would mean that it has no business being re-inserted back into the film, if Leone removed it after the premiere. Just like the Cave scene.

It would mean that if not for the negative damage, the cocksucker John Jerk would have inserted it back into the film, although it did not belong there. Just as Jerk has no doubt inserted way too many cocks where they don't belong, but I digress.

It would  mean that we should be very happy about the negative damage, for that prevented this scene from being re-inserted into the movie when it had no business being there.

It would mean that if only the Cave scene had had negative damage too....


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Jordan Krug on February 27, 2013, 10:55:14 PM
I've read your post(s) in the past about this issue. I even saw an image you attached to one of your posts showing the problem but never noticed it. I just watched it again in "slo-mo" and now I see what you're saying. Good eye! But it's subtle enough that these untrained eyes didn't pick up on it despite numerous views.

Yes, it is subtle, I guess once I started seeing it I couldn't unsee it, but I agree most people would be able to ignore it


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on February 28, 2013, 02:53:38 AM

In the bonus features of the MGM dvd disc #2, the text reads:



"The Extended Tuco Torture Scene: Because of negative damage, the full-lengthpremiere version of this scene could not be restored to the film reconstruction of THE GOOD, THE BAD, AND THE UGLY. An archival print has been transferred for this special edition disc."

If this text is correct, that would mean that this long version of the beating scene was shown only at the Rome premiere, and then removed by Leone before theatrical release (just like the cave scene).

Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. It is more likely imo that it was shortened before the premiere.

Quote

It would mean that it has no business being re-inserted back into the film, if Leone removed it after the premiere. Just like the Cave scene.

It would mean that if not for the negative damage, the cocksucker John Jerk would have inserted it back into the film, although it did not belong there. Just as Jerk has no doubt inserted way too many cocks where they don't belong, but I digress.

It would  mean that we should be very happy about the negative damage, for that prevented this scene from being re-inserted into the movie when it had no business being there.

It would mean that if only the Cave scene had had negative damage too....


Yes, I assume if they had found a perfect copy, they would have also used the longer scene for their DVD releases.

Still I see no real reason for your Kirk bashing. They did a good job with the restoration, but they made imo some mistakes too. Other people are happy that it includes the cave scene, that it has 5.1. sound, prefer the colors of the MGM to the Italian one etc. All a matter of opinion.

What about writing to Sony and to Paramount and see if they answer a few question about their Leone releases?
Especially about the differences between the Paramount master and the theatrical version of OuTW, and why Sony did not offer an additional mono audio to their releases. There is space enough, especially on the Blu.
What about the wrong music clues on DYS?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on February 28, 2013, 09:57:38 AM


Still I see no real reason for your Kirk bashing. They did a good job with the restoration, but they made imo some mistakes too. Other people are happy that it includes the cave scene, that it has 5.1. sound, prefer the colors of the MGM to the Italian one etc. All a matter of opinion.


I am very happy they did the 2003 restoration and reinserted the scenes that were cut.

My anger at Kirk comes from his arrogance/stupidity when he says that even though Leone removed the Cave scene, he thought it should be put back cuz if it were missing it would be "jarring" to the viewer cuz he wouldn't know where Tuco got his Mexican gunmen! And he used the fact that it was there for the Rome premiere as an excuse, something to fall back on, like you see, even Leone did have it in SOME version of the film!

The fact is that Leone removed it and it's not up to Kirk to decide what is jarring to us. I don't think any of the people who saw the short version for 40 were jarred by not seeing the Cave scene. of course, it's interesting as a bonus feature, which is where it belongs. And with the technology of dvd's, they could have made it an option to view it as part of the movie itself, if someone wants to. But IMO the job of a restoration guy is to restore the movie to its intended look, not to make changes that he knows and admits were undesired by Leone. Saying that he is including it even though Leone removed it, and then using the fact that Leone once showed it at the premiere as proof that there is some source for its use, that is worthy of contempt.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on February 28, 2013, 10:13:16 AM
Actually Kirk said that Grimaldi said that Leone wanted this scene to be in back then.

But I blame him more for not releasing the original mono version. Especially as they altered some of the sound effects.

I asked an Italian.
He says that the Cave scene wasn't released in Italy yet. The Italian Blu runs 174 min, and he thinks that's the theatrical version, and that other given runtimes (177 min or 182 min) are wrong.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on February 28, 2013, 10:16:18 AM
Actually Kirk said that Grimaldi said that Leone wanted this scene to be in back then.

But I blame him more for not releasing the original mono version. Especially as they altered some of the sound effects.

I asked an Italian.
He says that the Cave scene wasn't released in Italy yet. The Italian Blu runs 174 min, and he thinks that's the theatrical version, and that other given runtimes (177 min or 182 min) are wrong.

I do not recall him saying that Grimaldi said that.


Well 174 minutes would probably mean the same as the MGM version minus the Cave scene?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on February 28, 2013, 12:25:26 PM



Well 174 minutes would probably mean the same as the MGM version minus the Cave scene?

Yep


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on February 28, 2013, 03:53:57 PM
so to summarize, can you please confirm the following?

A) The 177-minute running time of the current MGM version is the longest version of the movie ever released (besides for the Rome premiere version)?


B) The Rome premiere version was the MGM version plus the extra two minutes of the beating scene?

C) The version released in Italian theaters is the same version currently released on Italian dvd/blu ray: the MGM version minus the Cave scene

Thanks!


p.s. stanton, in response to your earlier question, there is another reason John Jerk is worthy of contempt: for changing the gunshots in the 2003 version of the movie


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on February 28, 2013, 04:10:28 PM
Several times earlier in this thread, (and in other threads), I erroneously said that the longer version of the beating scene was the Leone-preferred version, ie. the one that was released in Italian theatrically, before the American distributors got their hands on it.

Thanks to stanton for pointing out that I am wrong about the beating scene. (As the text on the MGM bonus features indicates),  the longer beating scene was only in the Rome premiere; it was removed after the premiere and replaced with the shortened scene. So the shortened beating scene is in fact the scene that should be in the movie. So as I understand it now, the Rome premiere version had 2 differences from the version later released in Italian theaters: A) it had the cave scene; and B) it had the longer beating scene.


So I need to correct myself, for the record: so far as I now understand it, the version released in Italian theaters, which I have referred to as the "Leone-preferred version of the movie" is the MGM 2003 version minus the cave scene, (and without the new gunshots)

(the reason i am referring to it as the "Leone-preferred version is cuz my understanding is that it wasn't the distributors that made Leone make the changes; rather, he made those changes himself after the premiere. Therefore, I believe it's the version he most desired. Of course, I have no way of knowing this for certain; it's quite possible that the Italian distributors had something to do with it).

anyway, the bottom line is I just wanted to emphasize that IMO the longer beating scene does not belong in the movie cuz it was removed after the Rome premiere (just like the Cave scene), and therefore the version of the movie I consider to be most authentic is the 2003 MGM version minus the Cave scene, and without the re-done gunshots


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on February 28, 2013, 09:28:12 PM
D&D,

I suggest you spend some time reading the various threads here about the different cuts of the film. To save yourself some time, you can limit your search to my posts because I've always been more interested in the subtle and not-so-subtle differences between the 2 cuts of the film as well as the differences between the various home release formats (VHS, laserdisc, DVD, BD). I first watched this movie with my uncle when I was a little guy in the early 80's and haven't been able to get enough of it ever since.

Although the MGM SE is more consistent with the director's cut than previous MGM releases, there is more to it than your summary above; the MGM SE cut minus the grotto scene is NOT Leone's preferred version and I can think of 5 reasons off the top of my head (there may be more) for this:

1) An obvious one? The opening credits. There are subtle differences other than merely being in different languages.

2) Another obvious one: The titles. Italian cut uses Italian titles. International cut (or perhaps more specifically the US/North American cut if the titles were translated into other languages. I don't know) uses English. [Interesting trivia: The 1993 MGM laserdisc and VHS had Italian titles but it was the International cut.]

3) Tuco beating scene: Another member recently stated that the difference is subtle but that's not true. The Italian cut is shorter (e.g. missing a shot of Sentenza leaning forward while Tuco has his eyeballs crushed) and reordered versus the International cut.

4) Blondie saying, "Sorry, Tuco" after he loads his share of the $200,000 on the horse is excised from the Italian cut.

** Points 3 and 4 are extensively discussed in this thread (http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=10097.0).

5) There are 2 versions of the last scene: 1) Eli Wallach shouts, "...just a dirty son of a bitch!!!" in the International cut; and 2) Eli Wallach shouts, ""Sei figlio di una grandissima puttaaaa....(na!)". I believe this is what the Triage Labs co-owner was referring to when he claimed that for all previous home releases of the film this scene was out of sync. He was wrong. I own all the different home releases (not 16mm, does that even count?) over the years and not one has this issue. I suspect this is just another example of their ignorance; trying to sync English audio to the Italian cut and later realizing, "What a minute..." But I could be wrong.

Ultimately, the Italian releases (CVC DVD, Mondo DVD/BD) are still the closest thing to "Leone's preferred version".


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 01, 2013, 03:38:57 AM
thanks for your summary, but I have to disagree with your statement that the titles/credits being in English mean it's not really Leone's preference. Leone knew the titles would be in English; I am sure he never intended that the American version of the movie, using an English dub, would have an Italian language title and credits.

I am aware of the extra shot in the Italian beating scene of Angel Eyes leaning forward. And of the "Sorry, Tuco" issue

I am sure that in all or almost all of Leone's movies, there are a few differences in brief cuts between the various countries' versions. But when stating what I think is the definitive version of the movie (ie. the version Leone would have wanted if the distributors followed his wish precisely), I am focusing on the scenes or big chunks of scenes, not on a specific extra or missing shot. It's not that they are not important -- in a perfect world, every version of this movie would have been personally edited by Leone), but I'm not addressing a shot here or there, because quite frankly, I can't even be sure of every shot, I haven't yet seen the Italian version of the movie. (Just ordered the Mondo BD from Amazon, but it'll take a while getting here from Italy). As for the "Sorry Tuco" bit -- that's definitely an important snippet of dialogue, and, I read parts of that thread but I don't know if it's been determined for certain whether or not it belongs there. As for the syncing issues, it's never gonna be perfect, we know that it's very hard to get Italian and English syncs accurately, I believe that in some instances Leone even wanted to change dialogue in the dubbing room but Eastwood adamantly refused; so I can't worry about syncing issues if Leone himself didn't seem to be concerned with them.

So, while to a serious fan, every individual shot is important, in my discussions of what is the definitive version of the movie, I am focusing on the scenes or big chunks of scenes; I simply can't know the issues with every shot.
And I will emphasize again what I have said before:  my discussions of the definitive issue are only based on my understanding now, which is very little compared to some of y'all. I have certainly not seen every shot of every version ever released, and I am far from expert on this. All my comments are based on my understanding of the versions at the moment, which is constantly evolving.
And finally, there really is no way for anyone to know for sure what Leone REALLY wanted. Even with the Italian theatrical release, do we know for sure whether Leone had his way, or if it was changed against his will by distributors? NO.
All we can do is assume and presume and try out best to figure out, ultimately who knows. While I get upset if a studio exec sticks in his opinion even though he himself clearly knows that Leone had a different opinion, in general I've told myself many times that I don't think it's too healthy to be overly concerned about different shots here or there, a moment here or there, etc. Unfortunately, this is the curse of us serious fans! I sorta long for the early days (ie. two years ago  ;)) when I would just watch a Leone movie and be in heaven at its brilliance, before I knew a damn thing about distributors fucking things up and different shots etc. etc. Ignorance is bliss  ;)

With that said, MGM really may need to do a whole restructuring of the soundtrack for a re-release of DYS.............


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on March 01, 2013, 07:14:01 AM
Like I said above, there are subtle differences in the opening credits other than the language difference, particularly the way LVC and EW are credited. A minor difference but nevertheless it's there.

I recall reading that SL oversaw dubbing of the Italian soundtrack and left the English language track for Mickey Knox to figure out. Also, I have not read anything that suggests the Italian home release is not the same as the Italian theatrical release so everything points towards the Italian cut being most consistent with his vision.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Senza on March 01, 2013, 07:27:30 AM
I've always wondered about the opening credits where CW gets credited and all you hear are gunshots for the images of EW and LVC - I wondered why I always heard two gunshots for the picture of LVC until I saw the italian version of the credits. I would've preferred if they left in the credits for EW and LVC, but I think they discarded them for an American audience as they weren't major stars.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on March 01, 2013, 12:21:31 PM
All these minor differences are quite interesting.

But overall it is not wrong to say that the MGM DVD minus the cave scene is the DC of GBU.

The often mentioned runtimes for the Italian version of 178 or 180 or 182 min are maybe wrong, or they did include intermission or exit music. E.g. the Italian 168 min runtime of OuTW includes about 3 min of exit music played after the actual film is over. 


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on March 01, 2013, 01:42:21 PM
All can be simplified by treating BBC and GBU as separate films. Then 2 questions arise: what is the DC of BBC, and what is the DC of GBU? The answers are easility arrived at: The DC of BBC is the one Leone approved for distribution in 1966. The DC of GBU is the one Leone approved for distribution in 1967.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Senza on March 01, 2013, 06:24:26 PM
Does STDWD mention what was Leone's preferred cut? I read somewhere that there was a lot of pressure put under to him to get the movie out, maybe the movie was longer than 3 hours and so maybe he had to trim it down to meet the deadline.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on March 02, 2013, 02:07:44 AM
I think Leone needed pressure to discipline himself. He was always bubbling over with ideas, and it wasn't easy for him to let go of some.

Without pressure all his movies after FaFDM would have run totally out of control.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Senza on March 02, 2013, 02:24:13 AM
Mmm I remember Peter Jackson saying something about how a director never finishes his movie, if he gets a chance he'll always work on it until the studios take it away from him to be released.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on March 02, 2013, 08:09:20 AM
That was before the advent of DVD. Now a director can have a theatrical cut and an extended cut for home video. Nobody know this better than Jackson, with his ever-expanding Lord of the Rings material.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Jordan Krug on March 02, 2013, 09:24:51 AM
The only thing that makes me suspect that the uncut American cut is Leone's preferred cut is the music in the end showdown, it's way more polished in the u.s. cut vs the Italian

See this thread:

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=5606.msg76679#msg76679


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on March 02, 2013, 11:09:35 AM
For some reason, they used a different shootout musical score for the multichannel soundtracks.

The Italian and English PCM mono tracks use the same original score.

Here's my post at the end of that thread:

I think I've answered my own question. I failed to listen to BOTH audio tracks found on the CVC DVD and Mondo BD, which are original mono and 5.1. The original mono track on the DVD and BD has the score that we're all accustomed to hearing, whereas the remixed 5.1 track has the score with the extended wailing horn.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Jordan Krug on March 02, 2013, 11:41:24 AM
For some reason, they used a different shootout musical score for the multichannel soundtracks.

The Italian and English PCM mono tracks use the same original score.

Here's my post at the end of that thread:


Wow, that's very interesting, I should have read through the whole thread :)


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on March 02, 2013, 12:29:41 PM
Things get more dubious with every post ... ;)



Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Senza on March 02, 2013, 04:54:13 PM
I think with the italian version of the finale has the music is timed better with the shots, especially when they are getting into position and the trumpet kicks in right at the long wide shot of the circular space of the cemetery, in the english version, the trumpet kicks in before that.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 11, 2013, 12:25:28 PM
I just received the Italian Mondo Blu Ray (got all the dollars Italian blu rays from a great Italian Amazon seller named VECOSELL)

As I was told here, the main feature played just fine in my American blu ray player (despite the disc being labeled "Region B")

It looks beautiful but I can't compare it with the MGM blu ray  cuz I only have one br player, can't watch 'em side by side But I did watch for a few minutes side by side with my laptop which has the digital download from iTunes. Obviously, the Mondo has much better quality than that.

As discussed here, the Mondo does not have the Cave scene, and the beating scene is edited entirely differently (even though it's basically the same length as the MGM scene and uses most if not all of the same shots, but they are edited in a different order.

One other difference I noticed: when Tuco walks into AE's barracks, in the Mondo, you hear his stomach rumble VERY LOUDLY just before AE says "you're hungry." In the MGM version you can barely hear the stomach rumble; i didn't even know it existed till I heard it on the Mondo; it sounds like an avalanche!


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Senza on March 11, 2013, 05:18:26 PM
I actually hadn't noticed it was edited differently until I saw these two versions of it:
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3zXXGIZGEI
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVe_heQDaKI
I still can't figure out why they're edited in a different order though, they both have the same impact.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 07, 2014, 03:31:16 PM
bump


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on January 08, 2014, 11:12:21 AM
Spotted on criterionforum.org:
Quote
Remastered RoboCop is already available at some Best Buys for $7.99 (as it currently is on Amazon.com) and comes with $7.50 "movie money" for the remake ticket. It also includes a showreel/trailer for MGM's 90th anniversary with scenes from (remastered) Rocky, Fargo, The Good, The Bad and The Ugly, according to posters on Blu-ray.com forums.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on January 08, 2014, 11:39:23 AM
Thanks for the heads up. I planned on purchasing the remastered blu ray. Now I have another reason to do so.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on January 08, 2014, 02:18:15 PM
Thanks for the heads up. I planned on purchasing the remastered blu ray. Now I have another reason to do so.
Sure. But the main reason I posted here is to show we have our first hard confirmation that a new US blu of GBU is being released this year.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on January 08, 2014, 08:53:44 PM
I'm interested in seeing the PQ of the GBU scenes in the showreel/trailer. It should give us a sneak preview of the remaster and whether it's any good.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 08, 2014, 09:08:46 PM
Sure. But the main reason I posted here is to show we have our first hard confirmation that a new US blu of GBU is being released this year.

coming so soon after the recent Italian release, it's probably a good bet it'll be the same version, no?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on January 09, 2014, 11:12:35 AM
I'm interested in seeing the PQ of the GBU scenes in the showreel/trailer. It should give us a sneak preview of the remaster and whether it's any good.
I'm anxiously awaiting your report.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on January 22, 2014, 04:56:13 PM
Huh, Lil Bruto didn't get back to us, and meanwhile the remastered Robocop blu (which looks really, really good) found its way into my snowdrift yesterday. There are 3 very, very brief clips of Clint from GBU, so brief that one cannot get a sense of the PQ as they go by. I went back through and freeze-framed on each, and the image when not in motion was not impressive. All the other films in the showreel/trailer looked good, of course . . .


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on January 22, 2014, 11:15:40 PM
That's because my Amazon order has yet to be shipped. Not sure what the delay is.

Anyways, it's too bad it doesn't give us any indication of the quality of the impending "remaster" release.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on January 23, 2014, 06:15:03 PM
According to amazon.co.uk, the new GBU blu will be released April 14 and has a runtime of 155 min.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Good-Bad-Ugly-Blu-ray/dp/B00I04E21G/ref=sr_1_54?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1390516654&sr=1-54&keywords=good+bad+ugly


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Cusser on January 25, 2014, 08:54:22 AM
According to amazon.co.uk, the new GBU blu will be released April 14 and has a runtime of 155 min.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Good-Bad-Ugly-Blu-ray/dp/B00I04E21G/ref=sr_1_54?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1390516654&sr=1-54&keywords=good+bad+ugly

That 155 minutes would be the original US-release run time....


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on January 25, 2014, 11:36:06 AM
If you can believe the info from amazon . . .


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on January 25, 2014, 11:37:16 AM
... and only if it is a DVD- and not the Blu runtime.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on January 25, 2014, 12:30:03 PM
Then there's this: http://www.amazon.com/With-Trilogy-Remastered-Edition-Blu-ray/dp/B00HZN8TBC/

I'm reading on other boards that most people expect only GBU to be remastered, the other two titles will only be the old releases repackaged.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: T.H. on February 03, 2014, 03:27:59 PM
I really can't stand how MGM is trying to essentially wipe the 161 min version from existence. We should have options, same goes for the original mono track.

The only scene I really like from the 2003 version is when Angel Eyes visits the infirmary or whatever you want to call it.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on February 15, 2014, 12:21:12 PM
Steelbook! http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00I04E21G/ref=nosim?tag=dvdbeaver-21&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=B00I04E21G&creative=374929&camp=211189


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on April 02, 2014, 01:09:32 PM
French Steelbook, 21 May: http://www.amazon.fr/Le-bon-la-brute-et-le-truand-Blu-ray/dp/B00IDI30XA?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on April 02, 2014, 09:02:34 PM
http://www.amazon.ca/Name-Trilogy-Collection-Bilingual-Blu-ray/dp/B00JF5G9I8?ie=UTF8&qid=1396458576&sr=8-1&keywords=no+name+collection&tag=bluraycom0c-20


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on April 03, 2014, 11:36:06 AM
June 3, 2014

(http://i.imgur.com/pjEuiPt.jpg)


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on April 04, 2014, 08:16:19 PM
Cool. If they make it a Steelbook, I'll buy it.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Novecento on April 05, 2014, 09:08:07 AM
Personally I don't mind whether its Digipack, Amaray, Steelbook or whatever. I just want to know what the disc itself is like.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on April 05, 2014, 02:52:59 PM
By all means, buy a copy and tell us. >:D


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 16, 2014, 06:58:23 PM
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/74866

I like the "new" color scheme--the pink-and-blue approach was obviously wrong.

UPDATE: a poster over at Criterion Forum gives this as the justification for the "restored" colors:
Quote
the restoration of THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY was done by L'Immagine Ritrovita in Italy. For the color, they checked a vintage Italian Technicolor print or two and consulted with Assistant Cameraman Sergio Salvati. Salvati insisted upon the yellow look, saying this was what Leone had wanted and intended.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on May 17, 2014, 05:06:08 AM
Most think it is too yellow now. There is a screenshot in which Tuco's pearly-whites look pretty yellow (which is on the other hand more fitting for this dirty stinker).

But the new Blu is much closer to the Italian Blu, which then is also yellow, only not that yellow.

I still don't understand why they are not able to create one 4k master for all.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: noodles_leone on May 17, 2014, 06:16:00 AM
Far far too yellow to me. I'm never getting that one. Tonino Delli Colli was as amazing with lights as he was with COLORS. He wouldn't do a cheap trick like that.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: moviesceleton on May 17, 2014, 10:40:09 AM
On the bright side, there's clearly more detail in the image. Or could it be lack of DNR? Or use of digital sharpening?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 17, 2014, 05:03:30 PM
To me, the colors on the new disc look like a huge improvement:
http://www.ecranlarge.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2597741#post2597741

I haven't seen the Italian disc, but reports are that it was heavily DNR'd. If the new disc is free of that, then it's the one to own. Of course, you're a jackass if you buy the new trilogy set. In exactly one year (I predict) they will issue another set that will include the new FOD restoration, the FAFDM restoration, and this same GBU disc again. In the meantime, one can get the stand alone GBU disc of the new restoration in a tasty Steelbook, either from the UK or the French Surrender Monkeys.

These are the greatest days to be a Leone fan!


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 17, 2014, 05:45:03 PM
I haven't seen the Italian disc, but reports are that it was heavily DNR'd. If the new disc is free of that, then it's the one to own.

The Italian BD was not DNR'd, that was the previous MGM BD.

Of course, you're a jackass if you buy the new trilogy set. In exactly one year (I predict) they will issue another set that will include the new FOD restoration, the FAFDM restoration, and this same GBU disc again. In the meantime, one can get the stand alone GBU disc of the new restoration in a tasty Steelbook, either from the UK or the French Surrender Monkeys.

Amazon.com currently offers the new box set for $29.96. The steelbook at Amazon UK sells for GBP 19.00, which at today's exchange rate equates to $32. It doesn't make you a jackass to just opt for the box set for a couple bucks less even if you already own the other 2 BDs.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 17, 2014, 05:53:29 PM
Sorry, I misspoke. The poster I read actually said the Italian had been EE'd. He seemed to think there was better detail on the new disc, though.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 17, 2014, 06:01:28 PM
Based on the screenshots posted so far I think the 2014 remaster looks great. Very film-like, so much detail. I'm predicting the yellowness that others are complaining about won't be an issue. Screenshots can be deceiving.

The audio issue doesn't seem to be getting much attention. I really hope MGM used the original mono track, preferably lossless.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 17, 2014, 06:19:30 PM
Based on the screenshots posted so far I think the 2014 remaster looks great. Very film-like, so much detail. I'm predicting the yellowness that others are complaining about won't be an issue. Screenshots can be deceiving.
Yeah, it could look very good in motion. That's what I'm hoping.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Jordan Krug on May 17, 2014, 07:45:37 PM
Hey guys, I was able to download and watch a full res 16gb *ahem* "preview" copy of this new transfer and watch it tonight. Although this is compressed and probably half the file size of the actual Blu ray, I saw no signs that this would look significantly different than the blu ray disc.

- hands down this is the sharpest and most detailed the film has ever looked. I own both the previous MGM blu ray and the Italian blu ray. This edges out even the Italian which was already pretty good. It destroys the previous MGM bluray which looks like VHS in comparison. There is a nice natural grain throughout. Dirt and specs scratches etc are virtually non-existent. The only flaw with the new transfer detail wise is the blacks, they are a little crushed...but that makes it look more modern I guess.

- the Italian blu ray suffers from picture tracking jumps at almost every cut (from the glue splices in the original neg) The new MGM doesn't have this issue.

- the color is definitely more yellow/ teal, however I was able to tweak my tv slightly and it wasn't so strong that I couldn't compensate and get it closer to a more "natural feel" (but even then, yes it's gonna be a yellowish/teal picture with darker blacks...it's a subjective choice and after a while I forgot about it and just enjoyed the film)

- the audio attached was just the crappy 5.1 mix so I can't comment on that till I have the real disc.

- the cut is the "MGM extended" with all it's foibles. I'm curious to learn where they got the footage that was unique to the us cut if they were using the Italian neg (which I'm assuming they did). I did notice a very small quality jump on the "sorry Tuco" shot.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 17, 2014, 09:13:20 PM
I was able to download a 2 min sample and captured a screenshot of the opening scene.

The color difference is actually quite startling:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/trailerparkboy/2014-MGM-vs-2009-Mondo_zps9e12b77a.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/trailerparkboy/media/2014-MGM-vs-2009-Mondo_zps9e12b77a.jpg.html)


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 17, 2014, 09:20:27 PM
- the Italian blu ray suffers from picture tracking jumps at almost every cut (from the glue splices in the original neg) The new MGM doesn't have this issue.

Glad to hear this is rectified.

- the cut is the "MGM extended" with all it's foibles. I'm curious to learn where they got the footage that was unique to the us cut if they were using the Italian neg (which I'm assuming they did). I did notice a very small quality jump on the "sorry Tuco" shot.

Very interesting. I asked about this over at bluray forum. Curious how they pulled that off too. The grotto scene is also included? Is it better PQ?

Hey guys, I was able to download and watch a full res 16gb *ahem* "preview" copy of this new transfer and watch it tonight. Although this is compressed and probably half the file size of the actual Blu ray, I saw no signs that this would look significantly different than the blu ray disc.

You're well connected, Jordan. So...how do I download a copy??  >:D


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Jordan Krug on May 17, 2014, 09:43:45 PM
Glad to hear this is rectified.

Very interesting. I asked about this over at bluray forum. Curious how they pulled that off too. The grotto scene is also included? Is it better PQ?


Grotto is there. Maybe a little grainier but i didnt notice much of a difference in quality. All the extended added scenes seem to be the same quality.


You're well connected, Jordan. So...how do I download a copy??  >:D

Ha, not really. Don't want to advocate piracy per se....but there's a bay where pirates roam and it can be found thereabouts.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 17, 2014, 09:57:21 PM
Got it.  ^-^


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on May 18, 2014, 01:51:10 AM
I was able to download a 2 min sample and captured a screenshot of the opening scene.

The color difference is actually quite startling:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/trailerparkboy/2014-MGM-vs-2009-Mondo_zps9e12b77a.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/trailerparkboy/media/2014-MGM-vs-2009-Mondo_zps9e12b77a.jpg.html)

If I only compare the colors of these 2 screenshots I would prefer the older Blu. Strangely the clouds in the new Blu are barely visible while they are fully detailed in the lower screenshot.

Apart from that I remember the Spanish landscapes as yellowish from VHS and TV times, while on the DVDs Spain often looked more grey.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 18, 2014, 02:25:31 AM
for you all who are unhappy with the red tinge on the MGM BRD, what do you think of the color on the MGM DVD, which definitely is less red?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Jordan Krug on May 18, 2014, 06:27:35 AM
One thing I forgot to mention about the new MGM blu ray- it has more picture on all sides than the previous versions, a definite sign that they went back to the negative.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 18, 2014, 06:42:18 AM
In the meantime, one can get the stand alone GBU disc of the new restoration in a tasty Steelbook, either from the UK or the French Surrender Monkeys.


are the UK and/or French versions region-free, or are they Region-B locked?



Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 18, 2014, 06:47:49 AM
yeah, the new BRD of the trilogy is available for pre-order on Amazon.com for $29.96
http://www.amazon.com/Man-Name-Trilogy-Remastered-Blu-ray/dp/B00HZN8TBC/ref=sr_1_1?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1400416669&sr=1-1&keywords=the+man+with+no+name+blu

so,  in this boxset, the GBU will be a newly restored version while the FOD & FAFDM will be identical to the previous MGM release? or are the FOD/FAFDM discs also new restorations?

(if only the GBU is a new restoration, then I don't have to buy the trilogy; I can wait till it gets released as separate discs; I am pretty sure that eventually, they usually release these multi-disc sets in individual discs.)

----

BTW, all these comparison shots y'all are posting, between the new restoration and the previous BRD: is the previous MGM BRD or the previous Mondo BRD?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Jordan Krug on May 18, 2014, 09:36:35 AM
Here's a comparison of all the versions released, as you can see its a virtual rainbow as far as color:

(http://s8.postimg.org/a3bjwyrwx/transfer_compare.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/a3bjwyrwx/)





Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 18, 2014, 09:40:56 AM
Correct, GBU is remastered but FOD and FAFDM are identical to the previous BDs.

Having watched the 4K remaster in its entirety last night and keeping a VERY open mind I must admit the color timing of the 2009 Italian BD is superior. Whole lotta yellow/gold in this release.

On the other hand, some scenes are excessively green. For example, when Tuco catches up to Blondie as he's about to shoot down Shortie, Blondie's teeth are teal.

Another member at bluray forum pointed out that the picture becomes very blue and cold after they blow up the bridge. It seems like they tried to make it look like a night/low light/early dawn scene. When they come across the soldier, the picture becomes golden again.

The colors of the Mondo BD are much more consistent and lifelike, although some argue the extreme colors of this release are in keeping with Leone's style. Who really knows? Overall, I'm satisfied with the release. The level of detail is amazing. First day purchase for me.

Perhaps the Italians will tweak the colors for their inevitable BD release.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: noodles_leone on May 18, 2014, 09:43:35 AM
Thanks! The old MGM blu ray looks the best in term of colors on the screenshot. More details is cool but the photography of this film has always inspired me in my work. I could never watch the whole film with that yellow filter.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 18, 2014, 09:51:59 AM
Thanks! The old MGM blu ray looks the best in term of colors on the screenshot. More details is cool but the photography of this film has always inspired me in my work. I could never watch the whole film with that yellow filter.

so you don't think the MGM BRD is too red?


Also, what do you think of the MGM DVD, as compared to the MGM BRD? which do you prefer?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 18, 2014, 09:54:50 AM
Correct, GBU is remastered but FOD and FAFDM are identical to the previous BDs.


cool, so I guess  that (if I am patient, which it isn't easy to be for a Leone-disc release), I can just wait until this GBU version is released on BRD; eventually, I am sure they'll release the movies individually......

---

btw, do the Italian discs have the Cave scene? if yes, what audio do they use?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 18, 2014, 09:57:46 AM
No cave scene on the Italian discs.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Jordan Krug on May 18, 2014, 10:27:35 AM
Correct, GBU is remastered but FOD and FAFDM are identical to the previous BDs.

Having watched the 4K remaster in its entirety last night and keeping a VERY open mind I must admit the color timing of the 2009 Italian BD is superior. Whole lotta yellow/gold in this release.

On the other hand, some scenes are excessively green. For example, when Tuco catches up to Blondie as he's about to shoot down Shortie, Blondie's teeth are teal.

Another member at bluray forum pointed out that the picture becomes very blue and cold after they blow up the bridge. It seems like they tried to make it look like a night/low light/early dawn scene. When they come across the soldier, the picture becomes golden again.

The colors of the Mondo BD are much more consistent and lifelike, although some argue the extreme colors of this release are in keeping with Leone's style. Who really knows? Overall, I'm satisfied with the release. The level of detail is amazing. First day purchase for me.

Perhaps the Italians will tweak the colors for their inevitable BD release.

I agree, it's definitely a major color change and it will take getting used to. On the plus side I would say that someone seeing the film for the first time wouldn't notice and would probably think the film looks great. It's certainly a more "modern" approach to the color. I'm on the fence, I think there's no way that leone wanted it to look this way...but it looks "lush"..and the detail in this new transfer is stunning. During the cemetary scene, it really was incredible how far back in the distance you could sill make out clearly defined headstones. The transfer makes the film look like it was shot yesterday.

What were your impressions of the blacks being crushed/general contrast?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 18, 2014, 11:00:25 AM
What were your impressions of the blacks being crushed/general contrast?

Same as yours; they cranked the contrast dial a bit too much and not enough detail in the blacks.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 18, 2014, 11:31:24 AM
I agree, it's definitely a major color change and it will take getting used to. On the plus side I would say that someone seeing the film for the first time wouldn't notice and would probably think the film looks great. It's certainly a more "modern" approach to the color. I'm on the fence, I think there's no way that leone wanted it to look this way...but it looks "lush"..and the detail in this new transfer is stunning. During the cemetary scene, it really was incredible how far back in the distance you could sill make out clearly defined headstones. The transfer makes the film look like it was shot yesterday.

What were your impressions of the blacks being crushed/general contrast?

well if there is no way that Leone wanted it to look this way, then it shouldn't look this way. Period.

Other things you mention – eg. the clarity detail, like seeing clearly defined headstones farther away – IMO is a legitimate improvement and not changing anything about the vision/desire of Leone; if the technology exists to make detail clarity better, that's bringing out the best in Leone's art (kinda like shining a newer, stronger light bulb on the Mona Lisa), whereas changing the color from what da Vinci intended is wrong, wrong, wrong. I don't want "modern approach" to color, I want the color Leone wanted  >:D


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on May 18, 2014, 12:06:53 PM
Only that we don't know for sure what Leone wanted.

The differences Jordan posted in these screenshots are astonishing:

(http://s8.postimg.org/a3bjwyrwx/transfer_compare.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/a3bjwyrwx/)

I don't know which to prefer.

But I'm sure I will be satisfied with the new disc. and when the original German mono audio is on the disc, then I will buy it.

Frankly said, GBU was already a total masterpiece in the 159 min full screen VHS with which I had to live for years. Followed by a heavily cut TV version in 1,85:1. Followed by an uncut TV version with the 174 min (maybe still in 1,85:1). Every DVD is a huge improvement over this, and still how much quality can they add to a film which already was a masterpiece in a fullscreen version which really betrays Leone's visual copmpositions? 
1 %? Or maybe 2 %?



Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 18, 2014, 12:12:41 PM
I agree, it's definitely a major color change and it will take getting used to. On the plus side I would say that someone seeing the film for the first time wouldn't notice and would probably think the film looks great. It's certainly a more "modern" approach to the color. I'm on the fence, I think there's no way that leone wanted it to look this way...but it looks "lush"..and the detail in this new transfer is stunning. During the cemetary scene, it really was incredible how far back in the distance you could sill make out clearly defined headstones. The transfer makes the film look like it was shot yesterday.
Another point--all 3 Dollars films should have similar color values. If the new GBU looks like the newly restored FOD, then all is well.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 18, 2014, 12:14:59 PM
well if there is no way that Leone wanted it to look this way, then it shouldn't look this way. Period.
It's unlikely he would have been happy with ANY of the home video releases. What are you going to watch then? As for me, I'm certainly done with the pink-and-blue approach.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on May 18, 2014, 12:20:26 PM
Another point--all 3 Dollars films should have similar color values. If the new GBU looks like the newly restored FOD, then all is well.

Not necessarily. He used a new DoP.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 18, 2014, 12:24:04 PM
cool, so I guess  that (if I am patient, which it isn't easy to be for a Leone-disc release), I can just wait until this GBU version is released on BRD; eventually, I am sure they'll release the movies individually......
You are dreaming. All of the newly restored versions playing at Cannes are gonna have to be released. That mean ANOTHER box set for 2015. THEN the individual release can come out in 2016.



Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 18, 2014, 12:26:02 PM
Not necessarily. He used a new DoP.
This is wrong thinking. Leone is Leone. Check into the nearest re-education center.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on May 18, 2014, 01:01:39 PM
Of course, Leone should be the one who decides the film's colors, and the DoP the one who give shim what he wants. But maybe he chose Delli Colli because he wanted differnt colors than Dallamano was able to give him?

A director who develops his style with each film can have later also different ideas about the colors he wants for his films. The new MGM disc seems to be closer to OUTW than the older disc.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 18, 2014, 01:26:18 PM
Of course, Leone should be the one who decides the film's colors, and the DoP the one who give shim what he wants. But maybe he chose Delli Colli because he wanted differnt colors than Dallamano was able to give him?
More likely he chose Delli Colli because he was better at moving the camera. But the color issue we can argue as long as this board remains.
Quote
A director who develops his style with each film can have later also different ideas about the colors he wants for his films. The new MGM disc seems to be closer to OUTW than the older disc.
That occurred to me also. Of course, that may not mean much in the end.

I don't believe that any of the home video versions are true to what Leone envisioned. The viewer today must choose the wrong look he is happiest with. I am very tired of pink and orange fleshtones in Leone's (or anyone's) films. I welcome the new yellow approach.



Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: cigar joe on May 18, 2014, 03:21:56 PM
This may be closer:

(http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/cigarjoe/gbu_zps6a5fdd15.jpg)

I seem to remember it looking more golden with that Mediterranean sky in theaters on Times Square in 1968


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: noodles_leone on May 18, 2014, 04:13:44 PM
Every time I see a new yellow screenshot I'm even more disgusted. It looks like the book of Eli, now: cool framing destroyed by a color grader who discovers what can be done with Photoshop. Why don't they digitally put bigger boobs to any woman in the movie while they're at it? Only 2 people in earth ever thought that adding a yellow color filter to a film was a good idea: one if them graded Amelie, the other graded Traffic. Now they're both laughing at how stupid they were back in the early 2000's.

Now, the pink-blue version we have certainly lacks a tad if sepia. Still, DJ is worst than wrong here. He should be burned like any other communazi suggesting that MAY BE Leone wanted something awfull.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 18, 2014, 05:46:08 PM
Now, the pink-blue version we have certainly lacks a tad if sepia. Still, DJ is worst than wrong here. He should be burned like any other communazi suggesting that MAY BE Leone wanted something awfull.
I don't like your attitude. Back into the rat pile..........


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 18, 2014, 10:20:11 PM
You are dreaming. All of the newly restored versions playing at Cannes are gonna have to be released. That mean ANOTHER box set for 2015. THEN the individual release can come out in 2016.



You don't think the movies in this boxset will be released individually before 2016? They can release this boxset, then release tehm individually soon thereafter.

Then, after the new FOD and FAFDM restorations, they'll do ANOTHER boxset, then a few months after that, release individual discs of the movies from THAT boxset  >:D


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: cigar joe on May 19, 2014, 05:03:38 AM
This may be closer:

(http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/cigarjoe/gbu_zps6a5fdd15.jpg)

I seem to remember it looking more golden with that Mediterranean sky in theaters on Times Square in 1968

Yea, I think you get the feeling of the desert, that hellish dryness, the impression of dust suspended in the air that gives it that golden tinge. These films did look different from American Westerns remember, so always keep that in mind.

This also brings to memory that back when the first Almeria location "then and now" shots first started showing up on these boards, we were remarking about how GREEN everything looked now.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: mike siegel on May 19, 2014, 06:47:50 AM
The problem with human mankind is excess. Always :). Men never really know when it is time to stop.

One print is TOO blue, the better one (thanks for the now complete, not trimmed image!) is TOO yellow.
The middle of both would be perfect.

Yes, the Italian Western did look different, and more yellow.. But not THAT yellow. There was always
white, and blue skies too..

I try to make scans of my 35mm print which is in great shape. I saw the film on 35 years ago twice (excellent print)
and my trailer looked the same, color-wise..


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 19, 2014, 07:18:41 AM
Yea, I think you get the feeling of the desert, that hellish dryness, the impression of dust suspended in the air that gives it that golden tinge. These films did look different from American Westerns remember, so always keep that in mind.

This also brings to memory that back when the first Almeria location "then and now" shots first started showing up on these boards, we were remarking about how GREEN everything looked now.

Okay, so the desert has a yellow tinge, but what about the sky? as was pointed out earlier in this thread with those two screencaps, in the 2009 Mondo at least the sky looks a realistic shade of blue and you see the clouds. In the new version, the sky looks this ridiculous shade of light blue, not even blue, more like white, and you can barely even see the clouds. I can't believe Leone wanted to wash out the sky to a completely.

Frayling often talks about how the desert in Spain looks different than Monument Valley; the latter looks red in real life, so I can understand if the desert is supposed to look more yellow/brown. But I do know what color the sky looks like, and I can't believe Leone intended to wash that out. So, maybe the 2009 BRD is too red (kinda making it look like the color of Monument Valley?) but the sky is definitely bullshit in the 2014 version.

Again, I have to wonder if film "restorers" are trying to actually restore the film to what it looked like when released, or are just trying to make it look how they think looks best. FAGS  >:D


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: depp91 on May 19, 2014, 07:56:27 AM
Again, I have to wonder if film "restorers" are trying to actually restore the film to what it looked like when released, or are just trying to make it look how they think looks best. FAGS  >:D

Fags? Really?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 19, 2014, 08:25:06 AM
The problem with human mankind is excess. Always :). Men never really know when it is time to stop.

One print is TOO blue, the better one (thanks for the now complete, not trimmed image!) is TOO yellow.
The middle of both would be perfect.
After a good bracket has been achieved, we can aim for the middle and FFE (fire-for-effect).

Perhaps the day will come when the perfect release arrives. In the meantime, the industry will sell us every copy it thinks we will buy. I do like the fact that we now have more choices than ever before. If you like pink-and-blue, there's a version for you. If you like uncropped, details in high resolution (but yellowed), the new version is available. If neither of these satisfy, all you have to do is wait.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 19, 2014, 09:04:32 AM
we've basically been comparing BRD's here, but what do y'all think of the DVD? Specifically, the MGM DVD? I know there's a lot of criticism about the BRD (eliminating grain, red tinges, etc.) but were you happy with the image quality of the MGM DVD? if so, then you can just enjoy watching that; as long as you have a release you like, it's far from a calamity if it's on DVD rather than BRD. (One problem with the DVD is that it doesn't have the Frayling commentary; only the BRD does). But I am wondering specifically if you like the image quality on the MGM BRD? Or even on the old DVD from the 90's?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: noodles_leone on May 19, 2014, 09:17:04 AM
The MGM DVD is ok to me image wise. It's a bit blue and the grain removing is a bit heavy handed here and there but all in all it does justice to the film. Now the audio is another debate. Actually, no debate. It's bad. Just like another poster said at the time: "every gun makes his own tune" is no longer true, which is a real shame. Sound effects in Leone films is what introduced me to the importance of sound in movies. The fact that we're losing them in most recent releases is almost as bad as DJ liking the new restauration.

Pictured: Leone films according to DJ.

(http://www.arbolcrafts.co.uk/images/buttercup%20yellow052.jpg)


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 19, 2014, 10:07:37 AM

Pictured: A town square after noodles_leone and his rat buddies finish peeing on it.

(http://www.arbolcrafts.co.uk/images/buttercup%20yellow052.jpg)
Meanwhile, I wait patiently for my UK Steelbook edition of The Good, the Brown, and the Urological. :D


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: noodles_leone on May 19, 2014, 10:14:28 AM
Meanwhile, I wait patiently for my UK Steelbook edition of The Good, the Brown, and the Urological. :D

:D Then I have a better pic:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-adafNP_MvWg/T2-jIsJsu2I/AAAAAAAAAGc/cyCZv2jyl8U/s1600/Katarighe++Urine+in+glass.jpg)


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 19, 2014, 10:51:40 AM
I just sampled that, and there's too much protein in it. Can't you do anything right?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 19, 2014, 01:17:57 PM
Guy over at Blu-ray.com makes this report:
Quote
Watching the 4K GBU as I write this

 Film starts with the new MGM logo, where it flies past you.

 Everything is NOT drowned in yellow.

 Interior scenes have a VERY slight yellow tint, but is NOT drowned in yellow. There is a huge difference between interior and exterior scenes in terms of color. Both look beautiful.

 The few night scenes feature very deep blues. Very nice.

 Opening credits scene feature deep reds, blues and greens.

 The sound mix is still the old one. The cave scene has the clearly aged Eli Wallach speaking. Still takes me out of the moment

 Level of detail is incredible. The grain swarms the picture. I love it.

 The uniforms of the soldiers are very nice blue. They REALLY stand out during exterior scenes

 The scene where they blow up the bridge has a blue sky 

 So, before the blow up the bridge, the picture is very warm. Almost scorching. When they're walking across the water to check the other side, the picture becomes very blue and cold. When they come across the soldier, the picture becomes golden again. I don't know if this is a mistake. You'll notice it immediately.

 I've watched the film a million times, but my eyes have to adjust to this color scheme. Yes, exterior scenes have a golden tint, but it puts an emphasis on the scorching heat.

 So there you have it. The positives BY FAR outweigh the negative, IMO.

A few more comments on the 4K GBU:

 Notice that all screenshots so far have been of exterior scenes. Therefore, you'd think that everything is yellow. This is not the case. I feared that the indoor scenes would be smudged in yellow. Thankfully, they're naturally colored.

 Trees are very green. Water is very blue. The uniforms of the soldiers are very blue. The military markings on Tuco's cape are very yellow. The colors of all these things are very controlled.

 The desert scenes are bathed in sunshine. Especially the one with Tuco on the horse and Blondie thirsting for water. Bright deep yellows.

 I've watched the entire bridge explosion scene. I'm still not sure if this is handled correctly. It could be that the blue and pale colors are to symbolize the death of all the soldiers. I'm not sure.

 This new MGM disc has more detail than the Mondo disc and is supposedly had its restoration supervised by a few gentlemen, who had the pleasure of working with mr. Leone himself.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Sundance on May 19, 2014, 03:52:29 PM
http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/multi_comparison.php?disc1=4088&disc2=4091&cap1=37973&cap2=38021&art=full&image=14&hd_multiID=1687&action=1&lossless=#vergleich

http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/multi_comparison.php?disc1=4088&disc2=4091&cap1=37970&cap2=38018&art=full&image=11&hd_multiID=1687&action=1&lossless=#vergleich

http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/multi_comparison.php?disc1=4088&disc2=4091&cap1=37961&cap2=38009&art=full&image=2&hd_multiID=1687&action=1&lossless=#vergleich

And there's obviously several more screenshots there. They pushed so much yellow in there that a lot of turned into greenish/tealish? ;)

I have seen this in motion and I think a lot of it does actually look good, and then there are parts that don't. But I think I will prefer how the Italian disc looks.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: noodles_leone on May 19, 2014, 04:13:36 PM
The review gave me hope. Then I saw the new screenshots and we're doomed. The reviewer obviously closed his eyes during the whole movie because everything he says is a lie: yellow skins, yellow uniforms, yellow skies.

Far more details though. It's a shame they're yellower than a link on this board.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 19, 2014, 04:20:25 PM
The MGM DVD is ok to me image wise. It's a bit blue and the grain removing is a bit heavy handed here and there but all in all it does justice to the film. Now the audio is another debate. Actually, no debate. It's bad. Just like another poster said at the time: "every gun makes his own tune" is no longer true, which is a real shame. Sound effects in Leone films is what introduced me to the importance of sound in movies. The fact that we're losing them in most recent releases is almost as bad as DJ liking the new restauration.



then maybe the old dvd from 1997 is for you?

If everyone finds one version they like, that's all you can really ask for.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 19, 2014, 04:24:30 PM
The review gave me hope.

Never ever place too much hope in a review. Remember the guy who wrote the new DYS was the BRD of the year?

Wait till its released. That's what I am gonna do

Starting..... Now!  :)


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 19, 2014, 08:42:00 PM
This is encouraging...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/trailerparkboy/GBU-4K-mono-audio-resto-credit_zps7934a9ff.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/trailerparkboy/media/GBU-4K-mono-audio-resto-credit_zps7934a9ff.jpg.html)

Why would the mono mixdown from 2003 require restoration? More likely the original mono.  :D


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Novecento on May 19, 2014, 08:47:05 PM
This all reminds me of the difference between the Criterion release of "Heaven's Gate" when compared with the old DVD, although the situation is inversed here.

There was an interesting post on the Home Theater forum forum about it back then:

Quote
The thing is, the 35mm print you saw would NOT have been a vintage 35mm print, but rather based off the mid-2000s photochemical restoration performed by John Kirk using less-than-optimal source material. While Zsigmond was involved with that restoration, one has to ask, what was he using to absolutely ascertain that the results they were achieving color-wise were exactly what they got and intended back in 1980? Actual prints of the premiere version from 1980 (of which there were very few) would likely have been faded by the mid-2000s, so I'd have to think he was going off memory while at the same time pushing the less-than-optimal film elements they had access to to the best of their ability. I'm in no way knocking Kirk's heroic work or Zsigmond's intentions against incredible odds back then, but the early-1990s LaserDisc I mentioned was mastered from a vintage color-timed print which would not have faded by the early 1990s. The color on that LD is close to the Criterion version rather than the later very reddish/brown MGM versions that were released on LaserDisc, DVD, and finally broadcast HD. Frankly, I don't find the Criterion look to be "distracting" at all. It's certainly more vivid than the Image LaserDisc that was my go-to version of HEAVEN'S GATE for more than a decade, but it's a lot closer to the look of that LD than the later MGM LaserDisc and DVD transfers, and the broadcast HD version that's currently streaming on Netflix.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Sundance on May 20, 2014, 01:58:06 AM
Why would the mono mixdown from 2003 require restoration? More likely the original mono.  :D

From criterionforum from some guy who apparently knows things but I have no idea who he is ;) :

"The English mono was restored for this release. For the scenes unique to the extended version, the original mono M & E was combined with the ADR done back in 2002. Sync in those scenes was improved as much impossible."


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 20, 2014, 06:07:28 AM
So this is what we know about this release:

     2003 cut but with original mono available

     Uncropped image showing more information than ever before

     Amazing HD detailing and natural-looking film grain

     Yellow

Obviously a Day-One purchase for me. Hmm, UK Steelbook or French Steelbook?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 20, 2014, 09:37:30 AM
Would it have killed them to include lossless mono??



Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 21, 2014, 05:52:07 AM
Obviously a Day-One purchase for me. Hmm, UK Steelbook or French Steelbook?
Amazon.fr indicates my BD copy of Le Bon, la brute et le truand is now "Expédié"!!! (I went with the Frogs as they were shipping earliest). So excited!


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stamper on May 21, 2014, 11:27:32 AM
Someone report here that the mono track is the same old 5.1 downmix track  >:D

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=9217282&postcount=836


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Sundance on May 21, 2014, 02:00:55 PM
 :-\

Does that mean the film doesn't look like Leone wanted considering the same guy who said the original mono is there is also the source for Salvati saying yellow and vintage prints? ;)


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 21, 2014, 02:02:15 PM
Quote
When Tuco jumps through the window in his first scene, it sounds like
 the T-1000 throwing Arnold through the glass window at the mall in Terminator 2!!
Oh no!


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: T.H. on May 21, 2014, 02:13:31 PM
I can't be the only person who is confused and sort of angry that MGM/whoever is trying to pretend like the 2hr 41min never existed. I'd love to have that version restored with the original mono track.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 21, 2014, 02:40:32 PM
I assume the 2:41 version will never be released again. Anyway, isn't it  available on the original DVD (from like 1997?) with the mono? Last time I checked, thatt DVD can be bought used on Amazon for literally pennies. I bought a used one for like 5 or 6 bucks including shipping


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on May 21, 2014, 02:49:47 PM
Here are all differences between the original Italian version (as released on Blu) and the extended US version, the one which will also be on the new Blu (but less blue and more yellow):

http://www.schnittberichte.com/schnittbericht.php?ID=624419

Descriptions only in German though.

Some more stuff on the US disc (grotto scene, one shot in the torture scene, the "Sorry Tuco" part), and some alternative material.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 21, 2014, 07:35:10 PM
Someone report here that the mono track is the same old 5.1 downmix track  >:D

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=9217282&postcount=836

SON OF A BITCH!!!  >:(

MG(oerge Lucas)M is not a bunch of idiots. They KNOW what the fans want and yet they continue to deliberately screw us over.

This brings me to my previous question above...aside from marketing BS, why would a 2003 downmix require restoration? "You can't polish a turd." - Mr Jenkins (Christine 1983)


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: emmo26 on May 22, 2014, 03:44:41 AM
Only that we don't know for sure what Leone wanted.

The differences Jordan posted in these screenshots are astonishing:

(http://s8.postimg.org/a3bjwyrwx/transfer_compare.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/a3bjwyrwx/)

I don't know which to prefer.

But I'm sure I will be satisfied with the new disc. and when the original German mono audio is on the disc, then I will buy it.

Frankly said, GBU was already a total masterpiece in the 159 min full screen VHS with which I had to live for years. Followed by a heavily cut TV version in 1,85:1. Followed by an uncut TV version with the 174 min (maybe still in 1,85:1). Every DVD is a huge improvement over this, and still how much quality can they add to a film which already was a masterpiece in a fullscreen version which really betrays Leone's visual copmpositions?  
1 %? Or maybe 2 %?




Which version is the third one down?....That looks the best in my eyes...

If you look behind angel eyes in the door way, you can see more detail because it is less brighter than the last one.

and the two pots on angel's right are more defined  than the penultimate screenshot, which is too blue.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 22, 2014, 05:45:31 AM
Here are all differences between the original Italian version (as released on Blu) and the extended US version, the one which will also be on the new Blu (but less blue and more yellow):

http://www.schnittberichte.com/schnittbericht.php?ID=624419
But the US version on view is NOT the 2014 release, right?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stanton on May 22, 2014, 05:49:16 AM
I think it is. The screenshots look more yellow.

But there shouldn't be any runtime difference between the 2009 MGM Blu and the new one anyway.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 22, 2014, 07:27:35 AM
Well, the skin tones in the US shots look awfully pink to me.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: noodles_leone on May 22, 2014, 09:56:08 AM
Well, the skin tones in the US shots look awfully pink to me.

I got it: I think your screen is flawed.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 22, 2014, 10:00:28 AM
Huh? Wouldn't that make the Italian shots look too pink too? The Italian skin tones are fine.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 22, 2014, 10:57:55 AM
That's the old MGM BD.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: T.H. on May 22, 2014, 01:49:29 PM
I assume the 2:41 version will never be released again. Anyway, isn't it  available on the original DVD (from like 1997?) with the mono? Last time I checked, thatt DVD can be bought used on Amazon for literally pennies. I bought a used one for like 5 or 6 bucks including shipping

I think I'm going to do that, and just wait and hope that the original version gets restored at some point. I'm not going to buy the new set.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stamper on May 23, 2014, 04:19:41 AM
The original version will never be issued on Blu.

My guess is someone will recut the new Blu to fit the original 1998 DVD mono tracks, and that will be it.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 31, 2014, 03:20:05 PM
French BD Steelbook in da maison!

Huh, the spine got dinged in transit, or something. You can't really tell unless you run your finger over it, but it sure screws up the thing's "collectability."

The disc seems to be region free! Anyway, I ran it on region B, and then again on region A, and it worked both times. I had some tracking errors, though. There was no problem for the first hour of the film, then during the Carriage of the Spirits scene something happened that seemed like an awkward layer change. Thereafter I got a lot of stop-and-go errors, very brief for the most part, but certainly noticeable. The finale played without a problem though. I'll have to go back and see if the errors occur at the chapter headings. Don't know if this means the stateside release will have problems or not. Maybe its just my player.

Yeah, yeah, the color. OK, it's wrong. You can tell immediately in the first nanosecond of the film, because the title sequence, you may remember, begins with a solid field of white ("beneath" which we will subsequently see the red, blue, green images that are revealed when the white is messed with). I'm pretty sure that white was supposed to be a standard, picket-fence white, but in this version it's more a mayonnaise with a good dollop of mustard added. I tried manipulating my color controls to get it back to white-white, and I did pretty well, but then things like the red in the titles appear maroon (which is wrong). So, there's no help for it, the colors are off.

Having said that, I found them fairly pleasing in most scenes. After watching the new disc, I went back and looked at the previous MGM offering--ugghh, unwatchable, an abomination! (Is there really so much red clay in the soil of Almeria?) The new colors are certainly wrong, but the old colors are wrong-er.  I'm beginning to think that those championing the Italian BD are right.

I don't know if it's improved resolution, or just closely scrutinizing the images several times, but the signage in each of the early towns was easy to spot. You can see that the first three towns are Mesilla, Valverde, and Santa Fe. The dispute over whether the gunsmith's shop is in Buffalo Wallow or back in Valverde can never be resolved--there's no sign.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 31, 2014, 07:51:26 PM
Thanks for the info, DJ. Even if the French version is region-free, if it has these problems with the tracking, I will definitely wait for the American release and hope it doesn't have these problems.
What do you think of the MGM special edition 2003 DVD? And that vs. the 1997 DVD? (I have the Italian BRD but it doesn't have English audio, so) if all the MGM SE BRD and the new BRD have color problems, maybe the DVD is the way to go for GBU?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on May 31, 2014, 09:02:54 PM
What do you think of the MGM special edition 2003 DVD? And that vs. the 1997 DVD? (I have the Italian BRD but it doesn't have English audio, so) if all the MGM SE BRD and the new BRD have color problems, maybe the DVD is the way to go for GBU?
It's been a long time since I've seen the MGM DVD, but I suspect it, along with all the MGM BD releases, have the horrible pink-and-blue bias that makes me want to retch. Give me the yellow over any of that.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 01, 2014, 01:32:23 AM
I haven't seen it in a while either, but I think the BRD is much redder than the DVD


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 01, 2014, 08:26:58 AM
I ordered the UK amaray last week and just received notification it's on its way. I'll post my playback experience once it's in hand.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 01, 2014, 02:35:22 PM
I see the US version is already available on Amazon http://goo.gl/Pjbavx but for some reason it says "Usually ships within 7 to 10 days." In that case, I guess I'll order it from an individual seller rather than from Amazon itself.

Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the GBU BRD is available alone; only the boxset with all 3 Dollars films. Considering that ya'll said only the GBU is restored and the FOD and FAFDM are the same as the old BRD I was thinking of maybe just waiting a while till the GBU one was available as a stand-alone disc. But then I was wondering: are the FOD and FAFDM the same as the old MGM BRD or as the old Italian BRD? If the latter, then it makes sense for me to buy the boxset, cuz the Old Italian BRD (which I do own) is not available with English audio; so if I buy the boxset, then I get the old Italian BRD with English audio.

So, the question is, and I'd be mighty appreciative if anyone can answer this: In this new MGM American boxset, are the FOD and FAFDM discs the same thing as the old MGM BRD, or as the old Italian BRD (Ripley's for FOD, Mondo for FAFDM)?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on June 01, 2014, 04:42:17 PM
So, the question is, and I'd be mighty appreciative if anyone can answer this: In this new MGM American boxset, are the FOD and FAFDM discs the same thing as the old MGM BRD, or as the old Italian BRD (Ripley's for FOD, Mondo for FAFDM)?
I haven't heard anything to indicate they aren't the same as the old MGM BD.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 01, 2014, 04:45:12 PM
I haven't heard anything to indicate they aren't the same as the old MGM BD.

in that case, I guess I should just wait for this new version of GBU to be released as a stand-alone disc.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 01, 2014, 11:14:36 PM
Do all 3 movies in the new boxset have identical bonus features as in the previous MGM BRD release of the Dollars films?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 01, 2014, 11:17:26 PM
Also, I am just curious, did anyone hear anything about whether or not John Jerk was involved with the new GBU restoration?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on June 03, 2014, 12:07:56 PM
I went through the problem area on the new disc again and was able to get through without any tracking errors. I used the Region A setting on my player this time. Last time I watched it set for Region B, so maybe it didn't like that setting for some reason. Anyway, I'm willing to believe that my previous tracking problem was player-specific, and not the fault of a badly authored disc.

Thinking about the colors again, and bearing in mind what the Frogman has said about Delli Colli's lighting, there are a lot of scenes in this new version that are unsatisfactory. Many of the close-ups look absolutely fantastic, but long shots where there are shadows (almost all such shots), dark interiors (all the interiors are dark), and night scenes are fraught with problems. Details, even faces, are obscured or impossible to make out. Apparently, the yellow-ing has darkened everything.

Btw (and maybe we've covered this before), you can easily tell which interior scenes were done on location and which were done in the studio. If there are flies in the scene: location. No flies: studio. So, for example, the room where Blondie has to quickly assemble his gun to save his life: no flies, studio. The room where a convalescing Blondie is being attended by a friendship-feigning Tuco: a big whopper of a fly lands on Blondie's face, location. Spot-the-flies is a fun game you can play throughout the movie.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Novecento on June 05, 2014, 07:39:25 PM
Interesting post on the SWDB forum:

Quote
As for OUATITW, from what I have understood a lot of DVDs used to have incorrect colors, and some of them on purpose. Something about the equipment they were watched on and how they needed to POP from the screen or something. And I think DVD can't even present all the colors as accurately as Blu-Ray.

For example Mad Max 2 on DVD was quite golden/brown and the Blu-Ray (which according to some Mad Max experts is how the actual film prints look) looks quite different: http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/multi_comparison.php?disc1=2453&disc2=2448&cap1=22618&cap2=22576&art=full&image=0&hd_multiID=252&action=1&lossless=#vergleich (just put the mouse cursor over the image to switch between the Blu and DVD).


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Sundance on June 06, 2014, 05:06:09 PM
I just saw there's also a guy at blu-ray.com who insists the Mad Max 2 Blu looks wrong so who knows.  ;D

But still, I wouldn't trust DVDs at all as a source for correct colors.

But what can we trust...


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 07, 2014, 05:18:27 PM
I just received the UK amaray - as well as the steelbook, I guess I forgot to cancel my pre-order - and I have no playback issues. The UK BD is region free.

DJ summed it up well. A majority of scenes are problematic and yet some look great. Apparently a general color correction can scale back the excessive yellow for those inclined to create their own regraded BD. For my project I'm going to move forward with regrading the 4K and then decide if it's worth using over the Mondo.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: noodles_leone on June 07, 2014, 05:51:16 PM
H264 video is notoriously hard to regrade (their is actually very few color information in that codec).


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 07, 2014, 08:01:52 PM
H264 video is notoriously hard to regrade (their is actually very few color information in that codec).

KingKong650/KK650 has regraded some screenshots and it's a significant improvement. See links below:

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/74870
http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/75341
http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/75342
http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/75825
http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/75947

I will try to do my best given the sources and tools available to me.

*EDIT: Deleted link that was not color regraded 4K comparison.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: noodles_leone on June 08, 2014, 03:12:07 AM
KingKong650/KK650 has regraded some screenshots and it's a significant improvement. See links below:

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/74870
http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/74972
http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/75341
http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/75342
http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/75825
http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/75947

I will try to do my best given the sources and tools available to me.

Looks good!


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 08, 2014, 04:56:18 AM
So you can confirm that the new GBU is available as a stand-alone disc (i.e. not in a boxset with the re-issued FOD and FAFDM) on both the UK BRD and the French steelbook BRD; and both are definitely region-free?
If that is confirmed, then I will definitely buy one of those, rather than getting the American MGM version which has to be bought in a boxset with the re-issued FOD and FAFDM.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 08, 2014, 08:38:55 AM
I can only confirm that the UK steelbook is region free. I don't know about the French steelbook.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on June 08, 2014, 01:39:18 PM
The French steelbook (which I own) appears to be region free. It plays on both Region A and Region B settings on my player.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on June 08, 2014, 01:41:06 PM
If that is confirmed, then I will definitely buy one of those, rather than getting the American MGM version which has to be bought in a boxset with the re-issued FOD and FAFDM.
Even if the box set is cheaper?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 08, 2014, 01:42:22 PM
The French steelbook (which I own) appears to be region free. It plays on both Region A and Region B settings on my player.

but you had problems with it, didn't you?


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 08, 2014, 01:43:03 PM
Even if the box set is cheaper?

if it's the exact same movie and the boxset is cheaper, of course I'll get that. I haven't even compared prices on Amazon yet; I'll do that soon.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: dave jenkins on June 08, 2014, 01:54:03 PM
but you had problems with it, didn't you?
Not the second time I played it.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: hanshotfirst1138 on June 14, 2014, 10:16:28 AM
The lack of the mono is still a major dealbraker for me :(. Evidently, outside of the old SD DVD theatrical version, there's never been a version of this with the original mono. The downmix is almost more insulting than not including it at all. How foolish does Fox think that fans are? The definitive movie of the whole genre, and no proper release? What a crushing disappointment. It's the Drunken Master II of Spaghetti Westerns. Sigh.


Title: Re: GBU Special edition DVD and Blu Ray -- Breakdown of Restored Scenes
Post by: stamper on June 23, 2014, 08:44:13 AM
What do you mean? The original mono is on my copy. I just muxed it to it. Why do you keep wanting the corporation to do the work, when you can get it through people who truly cares? Get on the 21st century wagon train.