Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => Duck, You Sucker => Topic started by: titoli on December 16, 2012, 09:17:51 PM



Title: The novel
Post by: titoli on December 16, 2012, 09:17:51 PM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-85zGHWOej60/UBgOHATiupI/AAAAAAAABOA/YbAcXlQ341I/s1600/fod.jpg)




(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-toHWW-eULhs/UBgOCKDji2I/AAAAAAAABN0/rn2jo2OC9tY/s1600/dys.jpg)


Anybody read it?


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: cigar joe on December 17, 2012, 04:02:20 AM
is it another novelization?


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: dave jenkins on December 17, 2012, 05:58:55 AM
Yeah, a novel is not a novelization. Let's use the right terms.


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: noodles_leone on December 17, 2012, 07:38:17 AM
... but a novelization is a novel, isn't it?


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: titoli on December 17, 2012, 11:43:25 AM
Yeah, a novel is not a novelization. Let's use the right terms.

Sure. But that depends on whether the book in question was written before the movie was made or after. If the writer based himself on a screenplay (like Millard did for GBU) and not on the movie itself, then I think it is correct to speak of a "novel". What, in fact,  
if the movie doesn't go beyond the pre-production stage?
Having not read the book,like Jenkins apparently did, I assumed the same procedure adopted for GBU was in operation.So "novel", at least until Jenkins tells us more about the whole affair, stays.


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: Dust Devil on December 17, 2012, 12:36:35 PM
Sure. But that depends on whether the book in question was written before the movie was made or after. If the writer based himself on a screenplay (like Millard did for GBU) and not on the movie itself, then I think it is correct to speak of a "novel".


Indeed, I was just about to write that myself.


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: dave jenkins on December 17, 2012, 02:05:37 PM
Sure. But that depends on whether the book in question was written before the movie was made or after. If the writer based himself on a screenplay (like Millard did for GBU) and not on the movie itself, then I think it is correct to speak of a "novel".
No, regardless of whether it was based on the film itself or the screenplay, the work that is produced afterwards is generally called a novelization. Films are sometimes based on novels; novelizations are based on films or film screenplays. If you speak of the "novel" in the case of DYS you will lead the unwitting to believe that Leone's film is an adaptation. This is why Joe had to ask you his question: the formulation you used was confusing.


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: moviesceleton on December 17, 2012, 04:16:22 PM
So if a novel based on a film is a novelization (and not a novel), what is a film based on a novel, then? Obviously it's not a film...


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: Dust Devil on December 17, 2012, 05:18:32 PM
So if a novel based on a film is a novelization (and not a novel), what is a film based on a novel, then? Obviously it's not a film...

Following DJ's logic: it's a filmization.


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: titoli on December 17, 2012, 10:22:26 PM
No, regardless of whether it was based on the film itself or the screenplay, the work that is produced afterwards is generally called a novelization. Films are sometimes based on novels; novelizations are based on films or film screenplays. If you speak of the "novel" in the case of DYS you will lead the unwitting to believe that Leone's film is an adaptation. This is why Joe had to ask you his question: the formulation you used was confusing.

"the work that is produced afterwards". We actually don't know yet when it was produced. It might have been produced between two versions of the screenplay heavily different (and the blurb on one of the books makes me assume it might be the case) and, as in the case of GBU, displaying elements which change the impression left by the movie:which is not what a novelization is presumed to be, i.e. simply putting images into words. If I give the novelist (or "novelizator", using your vocabulary) words to be put into other words  his imagination will have a much freer rein than having to put into words some images. In fact you could consider the screenplay  of a not yet made movie simply a stage of the creation of a novel. 


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: stanton on December 18, 2012, 02:37:00 AM
A novelization is in the end always also a novel, while a novel is only rarely a novelization.

Verfilmung ("Filmization") is a standard term in Germany to describe films made out of books.


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: cigar joe on December 18, 2012, 04:21:12 AM
"the work that is produced afterwards". We actually don't know yet when it was produced. It might have been produced between two versions of the screenplay heavily different (and the blurb on one of the books makes me assume it might be the case) and, as in the case of GBU, displaying elements which change the impression left by the movie:which is not what a novelization is presumed to be, i.e. simply putting images into words. If I give the novelist (or "novelizator", using your vocabulary) words to be put into other words  his imagination will have a much freer rein than having to put into words some images. In fact you could consider the screenplay  of a not yet made movie simply a stage of the creation of a novel. 

Yea the blurb makes wonder.


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: stanton on December 18, 2012, 05:29:34 AM
And it is btw pretty idiotic to make a novel out of a Leone film. At least not off his westerns.


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: Groggy on December 18, 2012, 08:12:56 AM
True but it generated a funny discussion.


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: dave jenkins on December 18, 2012, 08:36:53 AM
A novelization is in the end always also a novel, while a novel is only rarely a novelization.
That puts it well. The point is that the term "novelization" can be useful, but only if it is used.


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: uncknown on December 21, 2012, 02:24:25 PM
It's a novelization of the screenplay.
The book includes the filmed but cut sequence where Juan tortures Sean ala Tuco & Blondie in GBU
bruce


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: dave jenkins on December 21, 2012, 02:38:52 PM
Hey, that's good to know, thanks.

Ordered!


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: titoli on December 21, 2012, 04:46:20 PM
It's a novelization of the screenplay.

Hey, that's good to know, thanks. The title stays.


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: stanton on December 22, 2012, 02:46:07 AM
It's a novelization of the screenplay.
The bok includes the filmed but cut sequence where Juan tortures Sean ala Tuco & Blondie in GBU
bruce

Does it also contain the scene in which Villega gets tortured?

Is there any other stuff which is not in the film?

Does it shed some light on the whole John/Sean affair?


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: uncknown on January 03, 2013, 01:22:37 PM
Its been years since i read it
????????


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: dave jenkins on January 05, 2013, 12:27:18 PM
Does it also contain the scene in which Villega gets tortured?

Is there any other stuff which is not in the film?

Does it shed some light on the whole John/Sean affair?
Just got my copy [we live in an amazing time: I push a button on amazon and almost immediately a paperback from 40 years ago falls through a wormhole and into my lap].

To answer your questions quickly: yes; yes; no, Mallory is "Mallory" (sometimes "John") and Nolan is "Nolan."

The most useful thing the book does is smooth out some of the chronology. You will recall that in the film we go from the bridge scene directly to the cave with the dead children. This is followed by the execution in the rain(where Mallory sees Villega and has the first flashback to the pub), then the scene where Mallory saves Juan from the firing squad. There has always been something missing, but now it appears that the sequence of events has also been scrambled.

Here's how things happen in the book. After the bridge, Mallory, Juan, the kids, and others are hiding out in the cave. Villega comes by and tells Mallory that he's going into Mesa Verde for a meeting. John thinks about going along but decides not to. Villega, before going into the city, stops at a farmhouse, a kind of warning post run by sympathizers. However, Guiterez and his men are there waiting for him. They take him into the city and torture him. Meanwhile Mallory decides to go out after Villega. Juan wants to go along but he's told to stay behind. Mallory doesn't go to the farmhouse--either he doesn't know about it or he goes a different way. He goes straight to the city and there witnesses Villega's betrayal. Guessing that Villega has also revealed the location of the cave, Mallory heads back. He runs into Juan who has followed. They see artillery bursts going off in the hills where the cave is; they hurry back. They arrive at the cave and find everyone dead. Juan rushes out for revenge and gets captured. Mallory finds that all his explosives are gone--taken by the soldiers, no doubt. He goes into town and pretends to be a mining engineer. At a munitions dump he gets the drop on some soldiers and relieves them of some ordinance and a new German motorcycle. He then goes and rescues Juan.

There are only two "flashbacks" in the novel. The first occurs while Mallory is in the cave and involves him and Nolan and the girl while they drive through the Irish countryside. The second is the pub scene, which occurs when Mallory observes Villega's betrayal (and it is not broken into two parts as it is in the film). There is no flashback at the end.


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: stanton on January 05, 2013, 12:36:28 PM
Thanks, that's pretty interesting. So there's absolutely no Sean in it. Let alone a Sean, Sean, Sean ...

The "new" scenes would make the film nearly 4 hours long. But would it be a better film with them?

And I forgot to ask you about the GBU-like scene with Mallory in the desert.



Title: Re: The novel
Post by: dave jenkins on January 05, 2013, 12:40:40 PM
I'll have to look again, but I don't remember anything like that. If I remember correctly, it just cuts from Mallory leaving Juan behind to Mallory working for Aschenbach.


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: Groggy on January 05, 2013, 02:14:58 PM
Very cool info, Jenkins. O0


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: cigar joe on January 05, 2013, 03:58:04 PM
thanks


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: dave jenkins on January 06, 2013, 09:54:09 AM
If I remember correctly, it just cuts from Mallory leaving Juan behind to Mallory working for Aschenbach.
Oops! I guess I skipped a chapter:
Quote
They kept to the side and about three hundred feet behind Mallory. He walked briskly for the first two hours, never acknowledging their presence by looking around. He was heading in the best of directions, toward the dryest part of the desert, and Juan did nothing to detract or deter him.

Mallory walked for four hours after nightfall, not stopping once. An incredibly bright moon, bright as only the desert can make it, lit his way. When he finally stopped, it was in a small gully which gave him shelter from the wind. He lay down abruptly under the lean of the gully wall and went to sleep.
In the morning he rose, brushed the dust from himself and headed on his way. He tramped over the hard, rocky terrain until nearly noon. His pace slowed with the rising heat of the sun. Dust turned his overcoat and bowler gray. He kept switching the suitcase from hand to hand, and by the time he paused to rest, he had already stumbled several times.

Mallory set down the suitcase and for the first time took out his flask. He shook it by his ear, measuring the supply, then unscrewed the top and tilted it toward his mouth. Juan quickly pulled a rifle from its sheath and shot the flask from Mallory’s hand.

The Irishman wheeled around angrily. His hand darted under his coat and came partially away with a pistol. He paused. Juan smiled confidently. Mallory was far out of pistol range.
 
“If you change your mind, Firecracker,” Juan yelled, “just call me.”

Mallory grabbed his suitcase and turned away.

They rode with him for the rest of the day. In mid-afternoon, Mallory fell down for the first time; an hour later he was falling every quarter mile. He dragged his feet heavily across the dry ground and paused ever more frequently to rest. Once when he fell, he staggered up facing Juan. Even from a distance Juan could see that the Irishman’s face was burned and his lips were swollen. Soft European flesh, he thought. He was pleased.
Only one thing was wrong. In his failing state, Mallory had strayed from a straight course. Instead of trekking into the heart of the desert, he was now bisecting a corner of it, stumbling toward the desert edge. The sun would have to do its job quickly.

By late afternoon Juan could make out the lines of a building a mile or two ahead. Mallory was heading for it. The lines sharpened as they neared. The building was an old shack, crumbling, with the walls half caved in. Wild grass grew lushly around it. There would be water there.

Mallory broke into a lurching run as he approached the shack. Cursing silently, Juan kicked his horse and closed the gap between them. Mallory burst through the grass. Behind it, to the side of the shack, lay an abandoned vegetable garden. A half-dozen watermelons, heavy and green, grew untended there. In a final burst Mallory reeled toward them. He bent to pick up a melon. Juan took quick aim and shot it away. Mallory reached for a piece of the shattered fruit, but another shot warned him off. Methodically, Juan destroyed the remaining melons.

Mallory never noticed the small pond to the lee of the shack. He teetered blindly out of the garden in a line that took him away from the desert and the shack. Somehow, he managed to cover another two miles.

It ended at a muddy puddle which lay at the bottom of a steep incline. Chulo, Napolean, Sebastian, and Nene stood on the crest high above the puddle, which was only a few feet around, and peed down into it just as Mallory began to drink. The Irishman raised half-closed eyes to them. His lips moved in a silent curse. Then he fainted.

They lifted Mallory gently in the air and layed him across a horse. They threw a poncho over him and led the horse away.

The crumbling walls of a fort loomed before them after they had ridden a few miles. The fort’s towers thrust proudly in the air, but no sentry could be seen in them. The iron gates were twisted, useless masses blown open once and never set back on their swingpins.

Inside, weeds grew in ragged clumps around the courtyard. A low, stone building dominated the yard. Its paint was peeling and its wooden portico rotted in the sun.

They made a place for Mallory inside the building, spreading a serape on the dirty floor. More weeds sprouted through the cracks in the planking.
“Watch him carefully,” Juan ordered before he rode away. “Don’t leave him.”

He left the fort feeling a sense of accomplishment. Only one thing remained to do and Mallory would be his.

The niños disobeyed Juan as soon as he was out of sight. They left Mallory with their grandfather and went scavenging through the abandoned buildings of the fort. Juan’s men, meanwhile, tended the horses.

Nino cleared the hearth and lighted a fire. From a pouch he carried with him, he took out some tostadas and baked it over the fire. He ate slowly, listening to the low breathing of the Irishman and wishing for some tequila. Fefe drifted in to tell him he had found the messhall kitchen. They would all be over there for a while, he said, cooking some atole, a thick maize gruel, so be sure to guard the Irishman closely.

Nino nodded. Okay. A half hour later he was asleep.


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: dave jenkins on January 06, 2013, 09:58:19 AM
cont.
Quote
Mallory awoke after Juan had been gone for several hours. He squinted in the flickering light from the fireplace at what appeared to be faces overhead. His eyes took focus. Nene and Benito peered down at him from the ceiling’s disconnected beams. Each was crouched on a beam; apparently they had been playing up there for some time.

Mallory raised himself on one elbow and looked around. The old man was sitting against a wall in the corner, sleeping with his head on his chest. Sebastian’s face appeared briefly in the window, then vanished. Mallory rolled over and sat up. Pepe smiled at him from his hiding place in a cleft in the wall and stuck out his tongue.

The sound of approaching horses drifted into the room. A moment later Juan’s voice echoed softly against the stone walls. “Hey, Irish. Hey, niños. It’s me.”

Nene and Benito dropped from the ceiling and ran toward the door. Pepe shook the old man awake and then dashed after his brothers. Nino followed in a daze.

Alone, Mallory struggled to his feet and staggered across the room. He was still very weak, but the need for haste drove him on. He fumbled with his suitcase, got it open and reached inside for several sticks of dynamite. As quickly as his trembling fingers permitted, he attached fuse wire to the dynamite and wedged it into a corner of the room.

Mallory refastened the suitcase, took hold of it and began backing out of the room, paying out wire as he went. He moved directly away from the door toward a breach in the opposite wall. He backed through the breach.

The night enveloped him. The air from the desert was harsh and the stars sparked dizzily overhead. His head spun off into some hot, dark tomb. He shook it violently to clear it. Still unsteady, he managed to retreat until his back touched a low wall some thirty feet from the building.

From the suitcase he took out a small detonator. He set the wooden box on the ground and attached the fuse wire.

On the other side of the fort Juan was calling his name. Mallory held his breath and waited. Through the gap in the wall he could make out the vague outlines of the doorway. Soon that bastard would come through the door. His hand tightened on the detonator handle.

The voices stopped. He could hear the crickets but not Juan’s guttural rumble or the chattering of the boys. Mallory peered through a haze into the building. Nothing. Long moments crawled by. Still nothing. Mallory rose from his kneeling position beside the detonator and lurched a half-dozen steps closer to the building. In the dim light, he could just make out the indistinct silhouettes of four men standing in the entrance.

He wheeled to go back to the detonator. A voice cut him off.

“Hey, Irish, what are you doing out here?”

He felt dizzy. He stood helplessly watching Juan’s bulk emerge out of the darkness. Several other shadowy figures were behind him. His sons. His men.

His men?

“Who’s in the building?” Mallory blurted. “Who are they?”

“Well . . . .” Juan said laconically, “it’s a long story.”

They were all around him now. In the corner of his vision he saw a small shadowy figure move toward the detonator, then pause. Mallory checked an impulse to race for the box. Maybe the niños wouldn’t notice it. He started to say something to Juan. The shock of awareness stopped him. Terrified, he spun violently around. Yes, the shadow had moved again and now held the small box in his hand. He recognized Chulo even as he screamed.

“NO. NO, DON’T.”

Too late. The boy had already begun to depress the plunger.

The blinding glare hit them a fraction before the sound. Mallory felt the ground tremble beneath his feet. The concussion hurled him backward.

He struggled to stay erect. A chunk of stone debris struck his leg, and he screamed from the sharp pain.

Juan was down on his rump wearing an astonished look when the dust subsided. Exhausted and in shock,  Mallory lowered himself to the ground beside him. He held his head in his hands for several minutes and allowed the nausea to pass. “All right,” he said wearily when he finally looked up. “Who were they?”


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: uncknown on January 06, 2013, 12:15:57 PM
phew!
if i was wrong, my 'career' as a film journalist would be over!!!

thanks!
bruce :D


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: titoli on April 17, 2013, 02:52:03 AM
1) The stage passangers are allowed to ride away free in a cart (no trough).
2) Juan wears a sombrero. John a black overcoat and a bowler hat (there's insistence on this last particular).
3) There's no death of Juan's acolyte (here one of his sons) wanting to prove himself able to handle dynamite, though the dialogue survives.
4) After the Mesa Verde episode and before the bridge, Juan and his sons try to leave the camp followed by John, but they have to recede as they step into governative troops.
5) Gunther Reza's name is here Gutierrez. But " a gaunt  and pockmarked face" belongs to a British cop escorting Nolan in the pub.
6) Reza is not in the car with Villega during the storm but it's him sifting the prisoners.
7) Mallory manages to  find other explosives and a motorcycle by raiding a military storehouse. Then he spies from a roof what happens in the garrison where Juan is tortured and bound to be shot. A good 5 pages.
8) There is no mass executions scene.
9)  The flashbacks are 3: 1) car 2) pub 3) a vision of Nolan's tortured face after Mallory shot him and of the coast of Ireland as he leaves for America.
10) explanation of how Villega managed to cover his trahison
11) Villega dies as a coward: can't find the guts to jump from the locomotive
12) There's also a tactical slant to Mallory's suicide

The book is divided into three parts titled:  Juan; John; Johnny And Johnny. I think this is a rather raffinate turn for this kind of book and I'd bet this tripartion was culled from the screenplay.


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: cigar joe on April 17, 2013, 03:27:40 AM
1) The stage passangers are allowed to ride away free in a cart (no trough).
2) Juan wears a sombrero. John a black overcoat and a bowler hat (there's insistence on this last particular).
3) There's no death of Juan's acolyte (here one of his sons) wanting to prove himself able to handle dynamite, though the dialogue survives.
4) After the Mesa Verde episode and before the bridge, Juan and his sons try to leave the camp followed by John, but they have to recede as they step into governative troops.
5) Gunther Reza's name is here Gutierrez. But " a gaunt  and pockmarked face" belongs to a British cop escorting Nolan in the pub.
6) Reza is not in the car with Villega during the storm but it's him sifting the prisoners.
7) Mallory manages to  find other explosives and a motorcycle by raiding a military storehouse. Then he spies from a roof what happens in the garrison where Juan is tortured and bound to be shot. A good 5 pages.
8) There is no mass executions scene.
9)  The flashbacks are 3: 1) car 2) pub 3) a vision of Nolan's tortured face after Mallory shot him and of the coast of Ireland as he leaves for America.
10) explanation of how Villega managed to cover his trahison
11) Villega dies as a coward: can't find the guts to jump from the locomotive
12) There's also a tactical slant to Mallory's suicide

The book is divided into three parts titled:  Juan; John; Johnny And Johnny. I think this is a rather raffinate turn for this kind of book and I'd bet this tripartion was culled from the screenplay.

Interesting, thanks so the genesis of this is that Sergio Leone and Sergio Donati devised the story and Luciano Vincenzoni, Sergio Donati, Sergio Leone    wrote the screenplay, I wonder if the costume changes were decided upon on location or before and if Franco Carretti had any input.   


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: titoli on April 17, 2013, 06:43:18 AM
The bowler hat reminded me of Dum Dum Dugan:

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS00uOG8jvly78X2Y5VpreVXCcf-873tem6wInCm486vorAFlne)



Title: Re: The novel
Post by: titoli on April 17, 2013, 06:48:22 AM
I wonder if the costume changes were decided upon on location or before .   


On location, I'd bet: It was like that in OUTITW. Leone spent an afternoon with Fonda to decide which hat to don.


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: titoli on December 02, 2013, 04:46:53 AM
Just got my copy [we live in an amazing time: I push a button on amazon and almost immediately a paperback from 40 years ago falls through a wormhole and into my lap].

What are you gonna say next year?

http://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=8037720011


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: dave jenkins on December 02, 2013, 06:27:59 AM
What are you gonna say next year?

http://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=8037720011
;D ;D ;D

Delivery is almost that quick already in metropolitan Tokyo. But then, those guys are living in the future anyway.


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: titoli on December 11, 2013, 03:34:57 AM
Paketkopter aus Teutschland:

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/die-deutsche-post-plant-einen-drohnen-test-a-938057.html


I am amused just thinking what it's gonna happen over here.


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: cigar joe on December 11, 2013, 03:48:16 AM
Here too. It was on the news about a week ago.


Title: Re: The novel
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 11, 2013, 06:06:30 AM
just in case anyone is interested, here is an hour-long audio discussion of the potential legal issues surrounding Amazon delivery drones (eg. control of airspace, regulation of the drones, privacy) http://www.fed-soc.org/publications/detail/drone-delivery-service-podcast