Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => Other Films => Topic started by: Rinaldo on August 12, 2004, 06:31:26 PM



Title: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: Rinaldo on August 12, 2004, 06:31:26 PM
What a beautiful work! A young Henry Fonda, Victor Mature, Ward Bond, Walter Brennan chewing up scenery, a young John Ireland and dear God, the camera work!

What do you all think about this film? John Ford films?

Speaking of Ford, there's a good Leone connection to Ford's "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance," which has Lee Van Cleef and Woody Strode in the cast.


Naldo


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: Belkin on August 13, 2004, 05:00:43 AM
MASTERPIECE! Check out STAGECOACH, another MASTERPIECE!


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: Il Buono on August 13, 2004, 05:53:03 AM
Very nice film, nice camerawork, very moody, good music, great performances.  Don't remember much of it, but it's definately worth watching.  A true classic.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: Rinaldo on August 13, 2004, 08:20:32 AM
MASTERPIECE! Check out STAGECOACH, another MASTERPIECE!

Oh yes, Stagecoach, a wonderful film. You really can't go wrong with any John Ford western. I would also recommend Ft. Apache; Rio Grande and, of course, The Searchers.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: DJIMBO on August 13, 2004, 11:38:33 AM
im not ford's biggest fan but The Man who shot Liberty Valance and The Searchers are two of the best films ive ever seen.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: Belkin on August 26, 2004, 10:18:37 PM
What a beautiful work! A young Henry Fonda, Victor Mature, Ward Bond, Walter Brennan chewing up scenery, a young John Ireland and dear God, the camera work!

What do you all think about this film? John Ford films?

Speaking of Ford, there's a good Leone connection to Ford's "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance," which has Lee Van Cleef and Woody Strode in the cast.


Naldo
Just watched FORD'S THE THREE GODFATHERS. A stunning piece of work. Great dialouge and some very scary moments tied in with some very tender moments. A forgotten classic!  ::)


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: cigar joe on July 14, 2007, 02:45:34 PM
This was the second DVD I picked up in the double package at Sam's Club about a week ago. Dir by John Ford and staring Henry Fonda, Victor Mature, Ward Bond, Walter Brenan, John Ireland, Tim Holt, Linda Darnel & Cathy Downs. Don't watch it for any historical accuracy, its completely screwed up. It has James Earp as the youngest Earp, exactly the opposite, Doc Holliday is a surgeon instead of a dentist (and Victor Mature is miscast in the part), and most of the events of the OK Corral shootout are completly fabricated. Its a total "meller".

But never mind all that because the real reason to watch this is more for its look, the cinematography is gorgeous both the town exteriors and the interiors are fantastic its Iconic in that respect alone, and it again features Monument Valley. Don't miss this film.  O0


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: Tucumcari Bound on July 14, 2007, 10:55:28 PM
I'm glad you started a thread about this great films, a John Ford Masterpiece. As you said before, throw all the historical accuracies out the window before you watch this. The story is fabricated in some areas. That's Hollywood for you.

Watch it for the technical side of it. The film is beautiful. The cinematography is some of the best I've ever seen. It's in glorious black and white, and I sometimes imagine how much more beautiful the visuals would have been if it was in color. Henry Fonda was great as usual. This is one of my favorite westerns. Cigar is right....it should not be missed.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on July 15, 2007, 08:00:30 AM
You both are right to mention the cinematography. The film was "lensed" by the great Joseph MacDonald, who also photographed such classic noirs as Shock (46), The Dark Corner (46), Call Northside 777 (48), The Street With No Name (48), Panic in the Streets (50), and Pickup on South Street (53). He did his share of Westerns, too, including Yellow Sky (48), which, like Clementine, has a great look.

MacDonald was equally at home with color, and was responsible for photographing Niagara (53), House of Bamboo (55), Bigger Than Life (56), and Warlock (59, reportedly Leone's favorite Western). He was nominated for Oscars three times: once for B&W photography (The Young Lions, 58), twice for color (Pepe, 60; The Sand Pebbles, 66). His last film was Mackenna's Gold (69). These are just the highlights. IMDB, where I got this information, credits him with cinematography on 74 films.

Needless to say, Clementine is more than just a series of beautiful photographs. Ford was in top form, conceiving and arranging such wonderful set pieces as the church dance, the Shakespeare recitation, and of course, the gunfight at the OK Corral. This last featured the absence of music, relying only on sound effects to create and sustain tension until the climax (doubtless an inspiration for the Cattle Corner scene in OUATITW). Ford tried to limit the amount of music throughout the picture, but Fox head Zanuck over-ruled him (the current R1 DVD features two cuts of the film, Ford's original and Zanuck's theatrical release; Ford's version is the more austere, and is better for it).

There are any number of things from this movie that SL appropriated. To mention just one, there's a running gag between Henry Fonda and the town's barber, which begins when Fonda first hits town. He only gets part-way through being shaved before trouble starts and he has to leave to see to it. The killer who doesn't get to finish his shave shows up in FAFDM, and in a scene that was deleted from OUATITW, Frank (Henry Fonda) leaves the barber after the auction to go confront Harmonica.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: cigar joe on July 15, 2007, 11:07:51 AM
this film has an "abondanza" of atmostphere agreed courtesy of MacDonald & Ford not to  be missed.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on July 16, 2007, 10:40:30 AM
(http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/2240/cap426ir2.png)
Cowboy Noir
(http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/8016/cap425xl4.png)
(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/812/cap423mj1.png)
The Big Bar-Down
(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/9994/cap424iy9.png)
(http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4489/cap412zj7.png)
Walter Brennan's Greatest Role
(http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/9179/cap413hl1.png)
Are you watching, Sergio?
(http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/584/cap414tc9.png)
. . . a love of faces. . . .
(http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/4326/cap419ew1.png)
Surprise, as only the Italians can register it.
(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/8559/cap420vz9.png)
I see your cool, and raise you.
(http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/9439/cap417he2.png)
Did I mention Linda Darnell is in the picture?
(http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/290/cap429ub6.png)
A bit of a dust-up at the OK Corral
(http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/4908/cap431qs9.png)
End of the trail
(http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/4896/cap433sz0.png)
Ford's original ending
(http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/1599/cap434gv6.png)
Zanuck's "improvement" (not photographed by MacDonald)


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: Tucumcari Bound on July 16, 2007, 12:20:12 PM
Great pics jenkins!


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: Silenzio on July 16, 2007, 01:16:52 PM
Yes, very cool, Dave!


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: cigar joe on July 16, 2007, 05:45:52 PM
Thanks Dave!


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on February 08, 2008, 01:50:27 AM
I'm posting this great exchange from Steve Erickson's most recent novel, Zeroville (2007). Set in 1968, it follows the adventures of Vikar, a film nut who has come to Hollywood to work in movies. Although he does break into the business (albeit at the most menial level), he's frustrated to find that most people in the industry aren't as fanatical about films as he is. One night he catches a young man of color breaking into his apartment and clocks him one. Vikar ties the guy to a chair, calls the police, but they never come. Man and prisoner start watching movies on TV. Eventually, Vikar dozes off. Here is all of Chapter 50 (the first "Chapter 50" that is, there are two in the book):

Quote
Vikar wakes with a start on the couch. “. . . check it out,” he hears a voice, “some wicked shit on the tube tonight.”
     Vikar’s prisoner is still tied to the chair, watching the TV.
     “My Darling Clementine,” the burglar is saying. Vikar realizes he’s fallen asleep, and that in his sleep he’s been hearing the other man’s voice as though there’s been no pause in the conversation, as though the burglar has been talking the entire time. Vikar tries to clear his head and wipes his eyes. “John Ford’s greatest movie,” says the bound man, “now I know what you’re going to say. . . .”
     It’s four in the morning, hours since Vikar called the police.
     “. . .Stagecoach. Right? The Searchers. Well,” the burglar continues, “Stagecoach was a distinct landmark in the genre, no getting around it. But that shit hasn’t aged well--“
     “Uh.”
     “—though no one wants to cop to it, while The Searchers is one wicked bad-ass movie whenever my man the Duke is on screen, evil white racist pigfucker though he may be. I mean he may be a racist pigfucker, but he’s bad in The Searchers, no getting around it.”
     “Bad?”
     “I can see I need to choose my words more carefully,” says the burglar. “I mean Duke gives a performance of terrifying intensity and sublime psychological complexity, whether by intent or just natural fucked-up white American mojo. The Searchers loses it, though, whenever Jeffrey Hunter and Vera Miles come on—Ford, he couldn’t direct the ladies for shit, unlike my man Howard Hawks where all the ladies are fine and kick-ass on top of it, even if they’re all versions of the same fox, or as William Demarest puts it down in Preston Sturges’ The Lady Eve, ‘Positively the same dame!’” The burglar stomps his foot and laughs, pleased with himself. “I mean Lauren Bacall in To Have and Have Not actually has some of the same exact lines as Jean Arthur in Only Angels Have Wings. But now My Darling Clementine here, it’s practically noir Western, all moody and shit, Ford’s first after the War and all the concentration camps and maybe he wasn’t in his usual sentimental rollicking drunk-Irish jive-ass mood. Check out my man Henry Fonda as Wyatt Earp and, dig it, Victor Mature as Doc Holliday and, dig it again, Walter Brennan as Pa Clanton! I don’t mean no Grandpa McCoy from TV, I mean in My Darling Clementine Walter Brennan is one stone fucked-up killer, you hear what I’m saying? ‘When you pull a gun, kill a man!’ Damn! My Darling Clementine, it’s got the inherent mythic resonance of the Western form but in terms post-War white folks understood, figuring they were all worldlier and more sophisticated than before the War. Ford’s creation of the archetypal West, laying out codes of conduct that folks either honored or betrayed—and I’m just trying to give the motherfucker due credit, not even holding against him, not too much anyway, the fact that he played a Klansman in that jive Birth of a Nation bullshit—anyway Ford’s view of the West was so complete at this point that Hawks, Budd Boetticher, Anthony Mann, they could only add to it, you hear what I’m saying? But of course the Western changed along with America’s view of itself, from some sort of heroic country, where everybody’s free, to the spiritually fucked-up defiled place it really is, and now you got jive Italians, if you can feature that, making the only Westerns worth seeing anymore because white America’s just too fucking confused, can’t figure out whether to embrace the myth or the anti-myth, so in a country where folks always figured you can escape your past, now the word is out that this is the country where you can do no such thing, this is the one place where, like the jive that finally becomes impossible to distinguish from the anti-jive, honor becomes impossible to distinguish from betrayal or just, you know, stone cold murder . . . what are you doing?”
     Vikar unties him from the chair. “Don’t break into my place again,” he says.
     The burglar looks almost hurt, but he stands from the chair slowly, a bit painfully, and arches his back and rubs his wrists. “O.K., man,” he answers quietly, “solid.”
     “I’m sorry about your head,” Vikar says.
     The burglar’s eyes return to the movie. “It’s cool. Occupational hazard. Hey, uh,” there’s a slight pleading in his voice, “can I just see the rest of this?”
     “Well.” Exhausted, Vikar is due on the Paramount lot in five hours.
     “There’s this scene coming up where Henry Fonda is having a drink in the saloon and,” the burglar starts laughing, “he says to the saloon keeper, ‘Mac, you ever been in love?’ and Mac answers, ‘No, I’ve been a bartender all my life.’ Oh man!” the burglar slaps his thigh.
     “I’m tired,” says Vikar.
     “I’ve been a bartender all my life!”
     “I—“
     “Hey, go ahead and get some sleep. It’s been a long night.”
     Vikar looks at the room around him.
     “Hey,” the burglar says, “on my honor as a foot soldier in the armed struggle against the white oppressor, I’m not touching anything. Go ahead and get some sleep. I just want to see the end of My Darling Clementine. What do you say?”
     Vikar returns to the couch. In his sleep, he hears sirens again. When he wakes two hours later to daylight coming through the window, the other man is gone and so is the television.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: cigar joe on February 08, 2008, 03:50:08 AM
 O0


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on February 12, 2008, 06:54:06 PM
And the best Western of all time is . . . .http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/movies/2008/02/five-greatest-westerns.html


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: moviesceleton on February 13, 2008, 04:30:47 AM
And the best Western of all time is . . . .http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/movies/2008/02/five-greatest-westerns.html
May I ask where the fuck is OUATITW?


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on February 13, 2008, 09:15:36 AM
Obviously he was excluding Westerns of Italian origin, something he should have made clear. If you consider that his list is really Best American Westerns it holds water (and I agree with him on the placement of Clementine).


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: titoli on December 16, 2008, 04:59:03 PM
I have watched the official version right now. The beginning is great, the finale is passable but the middle part, expecially after the arrival of Doc's girl, is almost unbearable. Sure, if you like Fonda playing the timid beau (which, BTW, Earp was not. Timid, I mean), the usual square dances and the stupid jealousy subplot, then you can rate this movie high. I don't, in spite of the great photography, of Brennan's performance (his best, among those few I saw) and even Fonda's, though I don't like his mannerisms. Mature is the healthiest Doc of the screen. Practically, the movie is good only when there are confrontations: between The Earps and the Clanton and (but only in the beginning) between Fonda and Mature. 7\10


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on December 16, 2008, 08:30:25 PM
The better thread.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: T.H. on December 16, 2008, 11:15:12 PM
I wouldn't argue against the notion that MDC is the greatest AW of all time, it's probably true.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on December 17, 2008, 03:20:46 AM
I personally can't think of a better one. Maybe a couple that are as-good-as.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: The Firecracker on March 12, 2009, 03:35:01 PM
expecially after the arrival of Doc's girl, is almost unbearable.

Agreed.
Saying that the romance subplot brings the movie to a screeching halt has become a cliche around here but it's true.
As for the rest of the movie, there are some great scenes but overall I don't see what the fuss is about.
It isn't even one of Ford's best. Just kind've unremarkable. Certainly wouldn't put it anywhere near a top 20 "best westerns" list.


6/10


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: Groggy on March 12, 2009, 04:13:29 PM
I remember being rather underwhelmed by this film too, but it's due a rewatch.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on March 12, 2009, 05:32:10 PM
You guys are on drugs.

First, since none of you attempt to distinguish between Ford's original cut of the film and Zanuck's re-cut (with its added footage and alternate soundtrack) it's obvious you don't really know what you're talking about.

Second, if you really cared about the subject you'd be posting in the better thread anyway: http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=5964.15


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: The Firecracker on March 12, 2009, 10:40:55 PM
Saying that the romance subplot brings the movie to a screeching halt has become a cliche around here but it's true.
As for the rest of the movie, there are some great scenes but overall I don't see what the fuss is about.
It isn't even one of Ford's best. Just kind've unremarkable. Certainly wouldn't put it anywhere near a top 20 "best westerns" list.


6/10

more...

The mise en scene is top notch of course (In the saloon scenes especially). The stark B & W is great to.
But the pacing is a bother.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: Groggy on March 13, 2009, 01:18:35 PM
Could you please explain what's so awesome about this thread Jinkies as opposed to the other one? Your little list?


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on March 13, 2009, 03:02:30 PM
Well, this thread certainly has better pictures . . .


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: Groggy on May 03, 2009, 11:16:33 AM
After getting around to that rewatch:

Quote
So, at long last on to John Ford. Our first encounter - as a blog, anyway - with one of America's most legendary, greatest and certainly most influential directors is his iconic My Darling Clementine (1946), his lyrical, elegiac account of the confrontation between Wyatt Earp and the Clanton Brothers. This is my second viewing of the film, and while a first watch left me cold, the rewatch caused me to completely revise my opinion. Although inevitably dated and hokey in spots (not to mention being among the historically inaccurate accounts of a real-life event out there), Clementine still works, not only as a showcase of one of America's legendary directors at his creative peak, but also as perhaps the best articulation of the old school myth of the American West.

The film tells a simplified version of the Earp Brothers' vendetta against the Cowboy gang, which turned much of Arizona Territory into a war zone throughout the 1880's. Wyatt Earp (Henry Fonda) and his brothers James (Don Garner), Virgil (Tim Holt) and Morgan (Ward Bond) are cattlemen moving West to start a new life, when they run afoul of Old Man Clanton (Walter Brennan) and his boys, a gang of thieves and cattle rustlers. The Earps spend a night in the raucous mining town of Tombstone, only to have James murdered by the Clantons - leading to Wyatt's appointment as town Marshall. He befriends Doc Holiday (Victor Mature), a shady, tubercular doctor-turned-gunfighter with a death wish, while trying to civilize Tombstone into a proper town. Also arriving is Clementine Carter (Cathy Downs), an old flame of Doc's who finds herself more attracted by the steady, heroic Wyatt than the increasingly reckless and fatalistic Doc. This all leads to the inevitable Gunfight at the OK Corral, where the Earps and Doc seek a reckoning slimy Clantons.

My Darling Clementine epitomizes the poetic, optimistic ideal of the American West. The Earps are basically good people driven to violence, rather than the conflicted, morally ambiguous gunmen history knows them as; their shady past as lawmen in the Midwest isn't even mentioned, and their relationship with the even shadier Doc is jettisoned entirely. Scenes like the lengthy Church christening and square dance (complete with the ubiquitous Shall We Gather at the River?) and the rather bland Clementine character may seem hokey or unnecessary to modern audiences, but they definitely serve a purpose in Ford's world: the inevitable progress of the American frontier relies on the coming together of people to form a stable community, the establishment of institutions like family and church, and a good man like Wyatt Earp to keep the peace. Scum like the Clantons are exceptions rather than the rule, and all Tombstone needs is a good man like Wyatt Earp to exterminate them, and life will continue its inevitable advance towards prosperity and progress. Relics of the past like the sultry saloon girl Chihuahua (Linda Darnell) and the tragic Doc have a place in settling the frontier, but no place in the future that results - an idea Ford would return to again and again, with increasingly tragic results (John Wayne in The Searchers epitomizing this). Ford's sense of idealistic liberalism and warm, optimistic faith in humanity is in full flower here; the simplicity of the message is what makes it work, even if jaded 21st Century audiences may dismiss or snicker at it.

By the '50s and '60s, this triumphalist view of the West was being challenged from all corners, from Anthony Mann's "adult Westerns" (The Tin Star, The Naked Spur) to the cynical, violent Vera Cruz, The Magnificent Seven and The Professionals, to the enfant terrible Sam Peckinpah (though his work is much more Ford-like than most of his peers) and the Spaghetti Westerns of Sergios Leone and Corbucchi. Even Ford himself, in his later works like The Searchers, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, and Cheyenne Autumn would show this myth to be ultimately hollow and empty - as the Cold War dragged on and America slipped into the violent chaos of the '60s, the idea of America as fundamentally good and virtuous became harder for many to swallow. But it's very much to the credit of Ford that through his films, the myth still endures - and however inaccurate or hollow it ultimately is, it remains a powerful one, a metaphorical representation of America as a force for good, progress, truth and virtue - the America we all wish existed, even if its reality is much darker or morally ambiguous.

The Wyatt Earp story has been retold time and again by Hollywood, from the straight re-tellings of Gunfight at the OK Corral and Tombstone to the revisionist Hour of the Gun, Doc and Wyatt Earp (even an episode of Star Trek would re-enact the famous OK Corral showdown). In truth, of course, the OK Corral gunfight was merely a bloody skirmish in a much larger land war, where the Earps, Doc Holliday and various other confederates shot it out with the Cowboys, a loosely-organized gang of gunfighters, outlaws, cowpunchers and rustlers for political power in Arizona Territory. However, Clementine never professes to be a history lesson; its mythic representation of the Earps as a righteous force seeking justice with their terrible swift Peacemakers is historically dubious, but as part of a larger fable of a young, growing America it has always been important.

John Ford is at the very top of his cinematic game. The cinematography by Joe McDonald is dark, moody, and heavily atmospheric - more fitting at times for a film noir than a Western. Certainly, however, Ford makes the usual striking use of his favorite locations in Monument Valley for the outdoors and landscape sequences. The movie is largely bereft of the bumptuous, overwrought comedy that plagued a great deal of his work (the Cavalry Trilogy, The Searchers, and The Quiet Man), which only benefits the film; a much subtler, gentler humor is well-utilized here. The film also has its share of iconic Western moments - notably, the initial showdown between Wyatt and Doc at the bar, and the wonderfully executed climactic gunfight, shot entirely without music, ambient sound and long shots building suspense as the Earps and Doc march to their date with destiny.

The cast is top-notch. Henry Fonda gives one of his most iconic roles, playing Earp as the straight-arrow, righteous Marshall with a clear sense of right and wrong. Victor Mature's performance as Doc Holliday is a bit off at times - he's never really convincing as the tubercular, trigger-fingered dandy gunfighter we know (or at least expect) Doc to be, but to his credit he brings a lot of dramatic weight and gravitas to the part. Walter Brennan gives us a truly nasty villain as Old Man Clanton, his scruffy brood including John Ireland, Grant Withers, Fred Libby and Mickey Simpson. Though not remotely convincing as a Mexican, Linda Darnell gives a fiery and memorable performance as bad girl Chihuahua; she's certainly more interesting than the fairly milquetoast Cathy Downs, whose Clementine never really rises above the level of stock love interest (and where is Josie Earp in all this, anyway?). Also in the cast are Tim Holt and the great Ward Bond as Earp's brothers, and Alan Mowbray in an amusing bit as a Shakespearean actor who runs afoul of the Clantons.

I hope to return to Ford and deal with some of his other great films - Stagecoach, The Searchers, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, to name but a few - but Clementine certainly isn't a bad introduction. It's one of the best and most straightforward representations of Western mythology, and it's well-made and damned entertaining to boot. You can't ask for much more than that.

Rating: 8/10 - Highly Recommended


http://nothingiswrittenfilm.blogspot.com/2009/05/my-darling-clementine.html (http://nothingiswrittenfilm.blogspot.com/2009/05/my-darling-clementine.html)


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on May 03, 2009, 06:08:45 PM
Quote
This is my second viewing of the film
I assume both times you watched the Zanuck-approved version and are ignoring Ford's pre-release, superior version.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: Groggy on May 04, 2009, 05:59:52 AM
"Ignoring"? ???


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on May 04, 2009, 06:04:08 AM
Well, you don't even raise the issue of the two versions . . . .


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: Dust Devil on November 11, 2009, 10:11:01 AM
Titoli hit the nail in the head in the other thread:

I have watched the official version right now. The beginning is great, the finale is passable but the middle part, expecially after the arrival of Doc's girl, is almost unbearable. Sure, if you like Fonda playing the timid beau (which, BTW, Earp was not. Timid, I mean), the usual square dances and the stupid jealousy subplot, then you can rate this movie high. I don't, in spite of the great photography, of Brennan's performance (his best, among those few I saw) and even Fonda's, though I don't like his mannerisms. Mature is the healthiest Doc of the screen. Practically, the movie is good only when there are confrontations: between The Earps and the Clanton and (but only in the beginning) between Fonda and Mature. 7\10

I agree almost word for word with what he said. The movie is beautifully photographed, almost like a Western-noir, and the actors did a fine job (except for Victor Mature playing Doc Holliday; he's just out of place, cause lungers are usually very thin and fragile people, especially when the illness hits the advanced stage DH is described to have), but overall the movie gets drastically slowed down and destroyed by the middle part. Now, the cliched love subplot and the narrative minimalism don't bother me so much as the logic of the transition to the third part. - First, Doc runs away and Chihuahua immediately jumps in bed with somebody else that just happens to be Billy Clanton (and he's played by who, Groggy?), but okay, she's a tart of some sort, so I guess Doc had it coming. Then, she lies about the golden cross/medallion and almost gets Doc killed... I mean, what was that all about? She probably lied not to tell she was screwing somebody else on the side, but couldn't she have thought of something better? Not that it would have made any difference, as Wyatt knew it was his dead brother's cross/medallion, but by telling Doc gave it to her she should have known Wyatt would have asked him about it as soon as he found him, and her lie would be over. But, the circus continues, after that, Doc and Wyatt storm back to Tombstone to find what, that she's in bed with Billy-boy that very moment? Great. It's already hard to believe the Old Man Clanton would let any of his sons parade around with the stolen medallion, let alone let the son that has it go into town (alone) just for a shag. And the funny business continues, as Billy waits near the window when Doc and Wyatt pay a visit to sweet Chihuahua, and shoots her, but only after she tells them his name, and doesn't even kill her. Lol, bright guy, that Billy-boy. Like that wasn't enough, Wyatt himself joins the charade by sending his brother Virgil in chase of Billy-boy alone in the night. That's another smart move, to send his brother alone in the lion's den, knowing Billy will try to run home (shot or not). Where, of course, poor Virgil gets killed... Most illogical.

My Darling Clementine is still a well made Western, pleasant to watch and entertaining enough, but I wouldn't rate it above seven point something. Let's make it a 7.2/10.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 26, 2012, 05:52:34 AM
Just watched MDC for the second time. The first time was of the pre-release version, so this is my first viewing of the theatrical version. My last viewing was more than a year ago; I can't remember the scene-by-scene well enough to compare the two.

This is a wonderful watch 9/10. Fonda is the greatest movie Earp. Mature is one of many good movie Docs (I liked Kirk Douglas and Dennis Quaid -- yes, better than Val Kilmer).

Chihuahua should have a Mexican accent, it's kind of silly how she sounds totally like an American girl. Unfortunately, that's often the case with Westerns, the studios use white leads, even when they are playing Mexicans or Indians. So Darnell is a Mexican character and made-up to look Mexican, but sounds no more Mexican than Cathy Downs  ::) Anyway, the entire cast is terrific. The scene with the church dance was great (I laughed thinking about what Sergio Leone must have said while watching it  ;D)

During the final shootout, the stagecoach goes by and the dust blinds one of the Clantons. I was wondering if that may have been an influence on the scene in GBU where Blondie and Tuco are shooting it out with Angel Eyes's gang in the blown-up town, and the explosion from the cannon blinds two of the gang members.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on June 27, 2012, 01:22:57 PM
During the final shootout, the stagecoach goes by and the dust blinds one of the Clantons. I was wondering if that may have been an influence on the scene in GBU where Blondie and Tuco are shooting it out with Angel Eyes's gang in the blown-up town, and the explosion from the cannon blinds two of the gang members.
It's certainly possible. That scene doubtless influenced the Cattle Corner opener for OUATITW--first, by suggesting dusters for the killers, and second, by demonstrating how well a scene like that can come off without music.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 27, 2012, 08:08:38 PM
Just reading some old posts, why are people criticizing Mature? I thought he was real good.

He is definitely a very different Doc than most movie Docs. Kirk Douglas, Dennis Quaid, Val Kilmer, and Jason Robards, were all smooth-talking, slick guys (and would never lose a draw to Earp). Mature is a very different sort of Doc, much more emotional issues, complex backstory (which is only hinted at), and tormented internally. The gunslinger who loves Shakespeare -- what a beautiful scene that is. I saw the later GAOKC movies first, so I was used to seeing the slick/cool Doc. Then I saw MDC, and it takes a bit getting used to a very different Doc character. The only similarity is the name. But especially the second time I watched the movie, once I knew what to expect, I really began to appreciate Mature. He was very good in that tormented role. I still love Douglas and Quaid, but IMO Mature is a very solid Doc as well.


btw, the church dance scene and the scene where they watch the actor do Shakespeare, are two of the most beautiful scenes in a Western.

It amazes me how much Leone could admire, heck WORSHIP, John Ford, but have such a different view of the West  :)


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: Groggy on June 28, 2012, 04:34:40 AM
Because Mature plays Doc Holiday, an Old West gunslinger, like he was a Boston gangster.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 28, 2012, 06:11:49 AM
Because Mature plays Doc Holiday, an Old West gunslinger, like he was a Boston gangster.

is it how Mature plays it or how the part is written?


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 11, 2012, 01:53:33 PM
I just watched the movie again, this time the pre-view version. What a great movie. It's hard for me to definitively compare the two, without having memorized the script of the theatrical release (you really have to see a movie 10 or 20 times before you memorize every word of dialogue so that you'll know when something is changed in a different version). But since the pre-view version is longer, having snippets of scenes that are cut out of the theatrical version, I think I'll always watch the pre-release from now on. (They are both great movies either way).

Another big difference is that the theatrical version plays music over some scenes, which the pre-release version just runs with natural sound. Eg. when Clementine first arrives in Tombstone, and Earp stands up and helps her out, the preview version has no music on the soundtrack; on the theatrical version, a slow musical arrangement of the song "Oh My Darling Clementine" plays on the soundtrack. Another example: when Chihuahua sees Doc leaving town, she angrily runs down the street to Clementine's hotel to confront her; in the preview version, there is no music, so we hear the sound of Chihuahua's heels running on the wooden sidewalk; in the theatrical version, music plays on the soundtrack, so we don't hear the sound of her running.

As for the final kiss: I know that purists will criticize it, but I happen to think it wasn't the worst thing in the world. Earp is obviously smitten by her, they got along well and he wants to see her again, a peck on the cheek is understandable. (Zanuck added this in after a preview audience wrote on response cards that it's obvious Earp wanted her, the simple handshake wasn't enough). It's not like they get in the wagon and start banging -- it's just a peck on the cheek! I think that's more likely what a person in that situation would have done, rather than just a goodbye handshake. (Of course, I don't know what was customary in the 1880's; but at least based on the cinematic language of those days, a peck on the cheek seems fine). Not that the handshake is terrible; it works either way. Now, I am definitely a believer in keeping the vision of a great director, and I do not condone messing with it in any way. The movie should have been left as Ford wanted it (which, as I understand it, was even longer than this preview version that survived in the UCLA archive). So my point is that nothing should have been messed with in any way; but strictly artistically speaking, the kiss doesn't bother me.... Also, as much as we don't want a studio screwing with a director's intent, the bottom line is that a movie made at Fox in the 40's would have Zanuck's imprint, this is the studio system, and although Ford was one of the all-time greats, a Fox movie of that era has the imprint of the whole studio, including Zanuck's, and it's not just purely the director's vision; the director was one piece of the puzzle (albeit a very large piece) in making a movie. Not saying that's the way I prefer it, but it's just the way it was.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 11, 2012, 02:27:27 PM
--- RE: our earlier discussion of the final shootout being an influence on Leone: I recently watched FOD with Frayling's commentary; regarding TMWNN's entrance into the final shootout, Frayling says: "So Piriperro has given him some sticks of dynamite, and what you might expect is that he's gonna blow up the cantina, he's gonna blow up the Rojo residence, he's gonna use the dynamite for some tactical or aggressive purpose. In fact, he doesn't do any of those things: he uses the dynamite to give himself presence as he arrives, to enhance his charisma, so that as he walks in, he's going to make one of the great entrances in Western movies: by explosion, lots of dust, the creation of dust in the sequence, which, according to Leone, was very much based on John Ford's film My Darling Clementine, where the final shootout takes place in the dust: the dust that the stagecoach has whipped up, the dust from the desert; the gunfight at the ok corral in My Darling Clementine is a very dusty ending. Well, there's a dusty ending here, but it's created by dynamite."


--- just started watching the commentary with Scot Eyman; it's one of those awful ones where the commentator has written everything before and sounds just like he is reading off a paper. Eyman may know a lot about Ford and this movie, but I can't listen to that annoying shit. Turning it off...


---  did anyone experience problems with a scratched MDC dvd?

I bought the dvd a while ago (the Fox Studio Classics version with the white cover), it was brand new but I noticed several spots where it was scratched. A few moments here and there, nothing that interfered terribly with the playing of the movie, but strange  to see it from a brand new disc. So I decided to buy another one; again, a brand new Fox Studio Classics dvd (they're going for like $6 on Amazon!); and again, I noticed scratches the first time I played it. So there's definitely something wrong there; I don't know if it's a problem with the print, or with the pressing of the discs. My guess is the latter, since I've experienced these scratches while watching both the theatrical and preview versions of the movie.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on April 20, 2014, 12:52:43 PM
June 1 for the French blu of La Poursuite infernale:
http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B00IYYPIJM/ref=pe_308531_47672581_pe_epc__1p_4_ti

What the heck is a "poursuite"?


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on April 20, 2014, 01:37:05 PM
June 6 for the blu of Faustrecht der Prärie:
http://www.amazon.de/dp/B00IZ8PUYU/ref=nosim?tag=dvdbeaver0c-21&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=B00IZ8PUYU&creative=374929&camp=211189

Isn't it about time to hear about a release from the country that made this film?


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 20, 2014, 03:49:44 PM
June 1 for the French blu of La Poursuite infernale:
http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B00IYYPIJM/ref=pe_308531_47672581_pe_epc__1p_4_ti

What the heck is a "poursuite"?

I like the cover of the box, with the iconic image of Fonda with his foot up on the post. But no reason to put Linda Darnell up there - the image of Fonda should be there on its own.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on June 04, 2014, 05:42:05 PM
Some nutty Italian kid put up some screen caps of the new Jap Blu: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/77375 There's nothing to compare the caps to, you just roll over a pic and get another one.

Those look really, really good. So now I'm thinking if this disc is out in Japan, and has been announced for several European markets (Spain, France, Germany, Italy) but there's still been no word about a Stateside release . . . Criterion must have it. I really hope this is the case.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: titoli on June 05, 2014, 12:48:09 AM
What the heck is a "poursuite"?

Still having problems with dictionaries?


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on July 05, 2014, 04:38:44 PM
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film4/blu-ray_reviews_62_/my_darling_clementine_blu-ray.htm

Uh, where is that Region A disc, again?


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on July 15, 2014, 04:42:45 PM
Criterion Blu in October!
Quote
SPECIAL FEATURES

• New 4K digital restoration of the theatrical release version of the film, with uncompressed monaural soundtrack on the Blu-ray
• High-definition presentation of the 103-minute prerelease version of the film
• New audio commentary featuring John Ford biographer Joseph McBride
• New interview with western historian Andrew C. Isenberg about the real Wyatt Earp
• Comparison of the two versions by the UCLA Film & Television Archive's Robert Gitt
• New video essay by Ford scholar Tag Gallagher
• A Bandit's Wager, a 1916 short costarring Ford and directed by his brother, Francis Ford, featuring new music composed and performed by Donald Sosin
• NBC broadcast reports from 1963 and 1975 about the history of Tombstone and Monument Valley
• Lux Radio Theatre adaptation from 1947 starring Henry Fonda and Cathy Downs
• Trailer
• PLUS: An essay by critic David Jenkins[no relation]



Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 15, 2014, 05:37:07 PM
 O0

A little disappointing that only the theatrical version is in 4K; I prefer the pre-release version, and that's the version I watch whenever I watch this movie. But glad to hear this is gonna be released on BRD   :)


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on July 15, 2014, 07:08:53 PM
O0

A little disappointing that only the theatrical version is in 4K;
I do not believe such a scan of the pre-release version exists in the world, and it would have been prohibitively expensive for Criterion to do one of their own (and perhaps would have produced only marginal improvements). Once Criterion licensed the theatrical, they had access to Fox's master, which made things easy. It all comes down to money. Drink, just don't buy enough from Criterion to cause them to cater to your every desire.

Still, both versions are in HD, and even 1080p is less than 2K, so how exactly were you going to notice the difference, anyway?


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: noodles_leone on July 16, 2014, 03:20:07 AM
Still, both versions are in HD, and even 1080p is less than 2K, so how exactly were you going to notice the difference, anyway?

4K shown in 2K (if correctly transfered to avoid line skipping artefacts) is always better than 2K shown in 2K. The difference is rarely astonishing, but usually noticeable.

That being said, the difference between 4K, 2K and PAL/NTCS versions of 50 years old movies is far less striking than with recent stuff.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 16, 2014, 05:31:12 AM
yeah, I don't know if I'd see much of a difference in my 32-inch tv. (though I hope to one day watch that blu-ray on my enormous home-theater screen, which perhaps would see a difference  ;) )

All I know is I prefer the pre-release version, so I want it to be at least as good as the theatrical.

Anyway, I am happy this move is being released on BRD, and I am happy that it seems that from here on in, all American disc releases will have both versions.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: stanton on July 16, 2014, 05:48:48 AM
As long as you have "only" a 32 " TV, there is no need to buy a Blu if you have already a DVD. Films like My Darling Clementine don't run away. There will always be better versions, or cheaper versions, of the same quality as now.

My interest is more in the films themselves and not in another small step of more quality. I barely notice the plus of details of Blus compared to the DVDs on my 42 " TV.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: T.H. on July 16, 2014, 10:27:42 AM
I'm no technical expert, but I notice a big difference in quality on a 42" plasma when I play a dvd on a dvd player, compared to a dvd played on a bluray player, and another large increase in quality when watching blurays.

I'll be making the upgrade no doubt. I hope criterion keeps releasing more westerns, classic hollywood stuff and genre films in general.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on July 17, 2014, 12:21:58 PM
I hope criterion keeps releasing more westerns, classic hollywood stuff and genre films in general.
No disagreement on that!


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: uncknown on September 08, 2014, 03:14:52 PM
Geez , I FINALLY get around to watching the Fox release w/the preview version and Criterion announces another release!
Well, I will probably watch it again as Joe Mcbride is an excellent biographer and commentator.

FYI 4k is not an "improvement" as it is not a noticable upgrade - to the human eye, at least.
If you watch a dvd on a Blu-Ray player the pixels jump to 740 pi. This looks very good, even on a 50" monitor and is close to 1080 (you will notice the difference most clearly on small print end credits - BIG DEAL!)

I watched MDC on a 20 inch flat-screen cathode ray monitor with the color truned down. For all intents and purposes this is hi-definition


cheers!
bruce


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: uncknown on September 08, 2014, 03:16:18 PM
re; the dust storm that obscures the final gunfight in MDC and FOD.
IIRC  YOJIMBO has that scene aso SL would have taken it from the Kurosawa film.
Correct me if i am wrong.
bruce


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: Cusser on September 09, 2014, 08:31:42 PM
re; the dust storm that obscures the final gunfight in MDC and FOD.

I just watched Clementine a few weeks ago and definitely noticed the dust.  I think the title for that just doesn't fit though, maybe that way so they could justify the song.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on September 10, 2014, 01:37:22 AM
Amazon has set a pretty high price for the MDC Criterion BRD, due out Oct. 14: $37.98, or only $1.97 off the official $39.95 list price http://goo.gl/ylG6rP I know all about the low-price guarantee, but that only applies until the day the disc goes on sale, right?

I'm definitely gonna hold off a little on this one. I have the DVD anyway, so there is no urgency to get the BRD on day 1; I'm sure this is gonna go down soon after (if not before) its release date


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on September 10, 2014, 06:12:13 AM
Amazon has set a pretty high price for the MDC Criterion BRD, due out Oct. 14: $37.98, or only $1.97 off the official $39.95 list price http://goo.gl/ylG6rP I know all about the low-price guarantee, but that only applies until the day the disc goes on sale, right?
Right. I just got burned myself on a title that I got charged for a day before the price plummeted by 7 bucks. Live and learn.

I'm with you on the Clementine disc. But remember, the November B&N sale will be right around the corner after release. A two or three week wait, and you can have it for half of SRP.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on September 25, 2014, 12:41:57 PM
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film4/blu-ray_reviews_62_/my_darling_clementine_blu-ray.htm


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on September 27, 2014, 09:13:37 PM
Right. I just got burned myself on a title that I got charged for a day before the price plummeted by 7 bucks. Live and learn.

I'm with you on the Clementine disc. But remember, the November B&N sale will be right around the corner after release. A two or three week wait, and you can have it for half of SRP.

it's down to $34.99 on Amazon now, but TCM (which is having a big Criterion sale now, up to 52% off some titles) is selling it for $26.99

I'll be waiting a while on this one


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on September 27, 2014, 09:20:11 PM
I am unhappy to see that the pre-release version does not look as good as the theatrical version. I prefer the pre-release version. Also, the new Joseph McBride commentary is only on the theatrical version.
Still, if the pre-release version looks better on here than on the DVD, then I guess this purchase will be worthwhile.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on October 11, 2014, 06:39:46 PM
http://www.dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/s4616clem.html


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: Groggy on October 11, 2014, 07:41:13 PM
I assume the liner essay by David Jenkins is what you find most appealing.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: Groggy on October 11, 2014, 07:43:21 PM
Also, what the hell is this:

Quote
When they finally did battle at the O.K. Corral (described in some quarters as an 'Earp drive-by') it's been reported that both factions carried arrest warrants for men on the other side.


Reported by whom Savant? I've never heard the most ardent Earp revisionist claim Ike Clanton and Tom McLaury were packing "arrest warrants" for the Earps.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: T.H. on February 14, 2015, 01:03:37 PM
I watched the Theatrical Version and the transfer is immaculate. I don't know if I'll watch the Preview Version soon or just the video essay. I don't remember if I've seen it before.

While there probably should have been more conflict in the transition in Act II, it never fully loses momentum for me and the photography is otherworldly.

10/10


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on February 14, 2015, 05:07:35 PM
Watch the pre-release version. I prefer it to the theatrical. Anytime I watch this movie, it's the pre-release.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: T.H. on February 16, 2015, 03:25:51 PM
I'll give it a go at some point.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on February 16, 2015, 03:46:31 PM
and you definitely should watch that bonus feature, the comparison video between the two versions. It is absolutely essential for any serious fan of this movie to – at least once – watch the pre-release version, the theatrical version, and that comparison piece. After that, you can decide for yourself which version you prefer and want to watch on future viewings.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: titoli on March 15, 2015, 05:44:15 PM
I have just watched the pre-release version and, though the criticism towards parts of the movie are still valid, must raise a notch my evaluation. 8\10   


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 18, 2016, 09:13:57 PM
I just  watched the BRD, the pre-release version, and I am extremely disappointed. It is full of speckles/damage marks - which I believe DO NOT appear on the pre-release version on the Fox DVD. Just to be sure, I checked out the DVD (which I have not seen in a while) by skipping around a few seconds here and a few seconds there, and indeed, I am fairly certain I am correct - the damage only appears on the Criterion BRD, not the Fox DVD

i have watched this movie (pre-release version, which I  prefer to the theatrical release) several times on DVD and loved it. But watching it on the new Criterion BRD is a  pain in the neck because of all the damage marks. I am extremely disappointed.

When watching the theatrical version, the BRD is nice. But for the pre-release version,  the Fox DVD is better


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: Moorman on January 21, 2017, 09:37:26 PM
I have watched the official version right now. The beginning is great, the finale is passable but the middle part, expecially after the arrival of Doc's girl, is almost unbearable. Sure, if you like Fonda playing the timid beau (which, BTW, Earp was not. Timid, I mean), the usual square dances and the stupid jealousy subplot, then you can rate this movie high. I don't, in spite of the great photography, of Brennan's performance (his best, among those few I saw) and even Fonda's, though I don't like his mannerisms. Mature is the healthiest Doc of the screen. Practically, the movie is good only when there are confrontations: between The Earps and the Clanton and (but only in the beginning) between Fonda and Mature. 7\10

Saw this for the first time tonight. I HAD high hopes for this one. I had picked out the remastered blu ray version and everything.  I knew the cinematography was gonna be great, and it didn't disappoint there, but like the poster above said, it opened good,  the middle went downhill, and finished OK.

 I didn't like the script at all.  Fonda's character was unbelievable.  I don't know if it was because of the times it was written, or just a bad script, but no thoughts were fleshed out. Just point A to point Z in a flash with everything.

Welp, thats one less blu ray on my to purchase list... I rank it a 5 out of 10, and thats only because of the cinematography...


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 22, 2017, 12:55:23 AM
Saw this for the first time tonight. I HAD high hopes for this one. I had picked out the remastered blu ray version and everything.  I knew the cinematography was gonna be great, and it didn't disappoint there, but like the poster above said, it opened good,  the middle went downhill, and finished OK.

 I didn't like the script at all.  Fonda's character was unbelievable.  I don't know if it was because of the times it was written, or just a bad script, but no thoughts were fleshed out. Just point A to point Z in a flash with everything.

Welp, thats one less blu ray on my to purchase list... I rank it a 5 out of 10, and thats only because of the cinematography...

It is a great movie.

watch it again later. I like it more and more every time  :)


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: Moorman on January 22, 2017, 06:54:21 AM
It is a great movie.

watch it again later. I like it more and more every time  :)

Too much i didn't like. The direction was horrible.  The inclusion of Doc Holiday was a bad  move.  Having him cough thru out the movie to set up the cough at the end was even worse.  The romance.  The whole premise.  Outside of the cinematography and surprisingly, the gunfights, its not a good movie.  The Westerner, for example, is a waay better movie...


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: stanton on January 22, 2017, 07:51:26 AM
Too much i didn't like. The direction was horrible.  The inclusion of Doc Holiday was a bad  move.  Having him cough thru out the movie to set up the cough at the end was even worse.  The romance.  The whole premise.  Outside of the cinematography and surprisingly, the gunfights, its not a good movie.  The Westerner, for example, is a waay better movie...

It's a point, but film freaks see this mostly different. Especially the directing. I have no clue how one can call this horrible?

Apart from some of the usual idiotic Ford "humour" it is an excellent film.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 22, 2017, 08:08:19 AM
As I said, I like it more and more each time, particularly the Doc Holliday character. Also, you have to view this movie through the prism of the old world/new world theme.

Holliday is plagued by self-loathing. He is a doctor – an honorable profession, like the domesticated new world – but does not practice medicine, instead being a gambler and a gunfighter. He explicitly rejects domestication. Wyatt is the new world – the sheriff, law and order. Doc chooses the wild girl – old world – Chihuahua, and rejects Clementine, the decent girl – new world – who is going to be a schoolmarm and bring civilization to the west. Wyatt and Clementine, who represent the new, domesticated world, are for each other.


The church dance – it's an unfinished church – bringing a sense of community to the West, ushering them into the new world. Even Shakespeare is coming to Tombstone.

Doc gets a last chance at redemption – putting his medical skills to use by operating on Chihuahua – but she dies. His self-loathing reaches an unbearable point, and now he has no more use for himself. Not that he is depressed over Chihuahua, but that he is depressed over his uselessness. Also, he had stopped drinking whiskey for a while, but now he starts drinking again. He has nothing to live for. And this world has no place for him now. When the Earps fight the Clantons, it's because they want peace. When Doc fights the Clantons, it's because he wants to die.


In the end, those who represent the old world – Doc and Chihuahua (and, for that matter, the Clantons) die out. The new world has no place for gunfighters and crooks. But we can never forget that they are the ones who laid the groundwork for today's civilization. The gunfighters and gamblers and whores made settling the west happen, but now they have to leave once we are ushering in the new world of civilization. Very much like Once a Upon a Time in the West  in that regard.

Watch it again sometime in the future. I thought it was pretty good the first time I saw it, but not great. Watched it again after a while, a number of times, and I love it more and more every time.

p.s. watch the pre-release version if you haven't. IMO it is a better version of the movie; that's the version I always watch. (Watch it on the DVD, not the BRD. IMO, The theatrical version looks better on the BRD, but the pre-release version looks better on the DVD.)



Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on January 22, 2017, 09:16:22 AM
Wow, Drink. Great post and great analysis.  O0


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 22, 2017, 10:06:00 AM
Wow, Drink. Great post and great analysis.  O0

Merci beaucop  :)

Waiting at bus station, heading from Washington back to NY. Tiring weekend but very enjoyable  :)


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: T.H. on January 25, 2017, 12:26:54 PM
The Westerner has a very cool ending but in no way would I say it comes close to MDC, which is a beautifully directed, complex, highly analyzable movie.

I'd like to see someone write something like this about a movie like the Westerner.

As I said, I like it more and more each time, particularly the Doc Holliday character. Also, you have to view this movie through the prism of the old world/new world theme.

Holliday is plagued by self-loathing. He is a doctor – an honorable profession, like the domesticated new world – but does not practice medicine, instead being a gambler and a gunfighter. He explicitly rejects domestication. Wyatt is the new world – the sheriff, law and order. Doc chooses the wild girl – old world – Chihuahua, and rejects Clementine, the decent girl – new world – who is going to be a schoolmarm and bring civilization to the west. Wyatt and Clementine, who represent the new, domesticated world, are for each other.


The church dance – it's an unfinished church – bringing a sense of community to the West, ushering them into the new world. Even Shakespeare is coming to Tombstone.

Doc gets a last chance at redemption – putting his medical skills to use by operating on Chihuahua – but she dies. His self-loathing reaches an unbearable point, and now he has no more use for himself. Not that he is depressed over Chihuahua, but that he is depressed over his uselessness. Also, he had stopped drinking whiskey for a while, but now he starts drinking again. He has nothing to live for. And this world has no place for him now. When the Earps fight the Clantons, it's because they want peace. When Doc fights the Clantons, it's because he wants to die.


In the end, those who represent the old world – Doc and Chihuahua (and, for that matter, the Clantons) die out. The new world has no place for gunfighters and crooks. But we can never forget that they are the ones who laid the groundwork for today's civilization. The gunfighters and gamblers and whores made settling the west happen, but now they have to leave once we are ushering in the new world of civilization. Very much like Once a Upon a Time in the West  in that regard.

Watch it again sometime in the future. I thought it was pretty good the first time I saw it, but not great. Watched it again after a while, a number of times, and I love it more and more every time.

p.s. watch the pre-release version if you haven't. IMO it is a better version of the movie; that's the version I always watch. (Watch it on the DVD, not the BRD. IMO, The theatrical version looks better on the BRD, but the pre-release version looks better on the DVD.)

 O0


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: Moorman on November 18, 2017, 11:56:20 AM
It is a great movie.

watch it again later. I like it more and more every time  :)
I been  away a while. Gonna start catching up. First. I feel soo bad about my initial comments about this movie.  I was wrong. When I first watched this movie, it was late and I was half asleep.  That, combined with the fact I was going thru a movie marathon ( I was still new to western and classic movies, so I was trying to catch up) that I tried to hurriedly watch this movie and get a impression of it.

I purchased the Criterion blu Ray version and rewatched it. Man, its a masterpiece.  Everything I said was wrong with the movie, was the opposite.  I said that Fonda's character didn't flesh out his ideas. He did, I just didn't pay attention the first time. I said the romance scenes slowed the movie down. They DID, but not in a bad way. Actually, the romantic subplots added more substance to the characters and the movie itself. The cinematography was even more gorgeous than the version I saw.  I loved everything about this movie upon looking at it again. I have put it in my top 4 Ford westerns.  They are Stagecoach, Red River, The Man who shot Liberty Valence, and now this.  I now rate it a 8 out of 10.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: cigar joe on November 18, 2017, 01:05:57 PM
 O0 O0 O0


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 18, 2017, 04:02:09 PM
I been  away a while. Gonna start catching up. First. I feel soo bad about my initial comments about this movie.  I was wrong. When I first watched this movie, it was late and I was half asleep.  That, combined with the fact I was going thru a movie marathon ( I was still new to western and classic movies, so I was trying to catch up) that I tried to hurriedly watch this movie and get a impression of it.

I purchased the Criterion blu Ray version and rewatched it. Man, its a masterpiece.  Everything I said was wrong with the movie, was the opposite.  I said that Fonda's character didn't flesh out his ideas. He did, I just didn't pay attention the first time. I said the romance scenes slowed the movie down. They DID, but not in a bad way. Actually, the romantic subplots added more substance to the characters and the movie itself. The cinematography was even more gorgeous than the version I saw.  I loved everything about this movie upon looking at it again. I have put it in my top 4 Ford westerns.  They are Stagecoach, Red River, The Man who shot Liberty Valence, and now this.  I now rate it a 8 out of 10.

I hope you watch the pre-release version. It is better than the theatrical IMO. But for the pre-release version, you have to watch the DVD. The pre-release version on BRD looks very bad (perhaps because the 2K scan picks up all the damage marks). My preferred version of this movie is the pre-release version on DVD. There is also a bonus feature (on both BRD and DVD) that goes through the differences between the two versions.

DVD: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00UGPIZBK/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1511046076&sr=8-3&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=my+darling+clementine+dvd&dpPl=1&dpID=41XxujmqP4L&ref=plSrch


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: Moorman on November 18, 2017, 04:27:10 PM
I hope you watch the pre-release version. It is better than the theatrical IMO. But for the pre-release version, you have to watch the DVD. The pre-release version on BRD looks very bad (perhaps because the 2K scan picks up all the damage marks). My preferred version of this movie is the pre-release version on DVD. There is also a bonus feature (on both BRD and DVD) that goes through the differences between the two versions.

DVD: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00UGPIZBK/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1511046076&sr=8-3&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=my+darling+clementine+dvd&dpPl=1&dpID=41XxujmqP4L&ref=plSrch

I noticed the prerelease version on the Criterion Blu Ray i purchased. I haven't seen it yet, so i didn't know about the marks on the film. Its cool though. I love this film soo much now that i don't mind it at all.  I have a recent purchase of the original The Man Who Knew too Much, also from Criterion, that has some really bad parts in it, but i don't mind. In a way, it adds to the nostalgia of the film.  Thanks for the heads up on that. The prerelease version has more scenes?  You mentioned earlier that i don't rate movies higher than a 8.  I just might rate this one higher as it grows on me more. I've been thinking about it ever since i rewatched it.


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 18, 2017, 05:55:05 PM
I noticed the prerelease version on the Criterion Blu Ray i purchased. I haven't seen it yet, so i didn't know about the marks on the film. Its cool though. I love this film soo much now that i don't mind it at all.  I have a recent purchase of the original The Man Who Knew too Much, also from Criterion, that has some really bad parts in it, but i don't mind. In a way, it adds to the nostalgia of the film.  Thanks for the heads up on that. The prerelease version has more scenes?  You mentioned earlier that i don't rate movies higher than a 8.  I just might rate this one higher as it grows on me more. I've been thinking about it ever since i rewatched it.

pre-release version doesn’t have any more whole scenes. It has some bits and parts, an extra line or few seconds here and there. Also, some parts are silent, where the theatrical version had music.

Watch the pre-release version (preferably on DVD). Then watch the bonus feature explaining the differences  :)


Title: Re: My Darling Clementine (1946)
Post by: Moorman on November 18, 2017, 06:10:33 PM
pre-release version doesn’t have any more whole scenes. It has some bits and parts, an extra line or few seconds here and there. Also, some parts are silent, where the theatrical version had music.

Watch the pre-release version (preferably on DVD). Then watch the bonus feature explaining the differences  :)

Thanks. I will watch the prerelease version to see if i can catch the differences.  The Criterion release has a TON of bonus features, as you already know. I will getr around to the part that explains the differences...