Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => The Good, The Bad and The Ugly => Topic started by: Gwalker99 on November 23, 2015, 03:15:56 AM



Title: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: Gwalker99 on November 23, 2015, 03:15:56 AM
he killed those 3 guys that were going to take Tuco in...


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: cigar joe on November 23, 2015, 03:37:51 AM
He's relatively good compared to the other two, lol.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: noodles_leone on November 23, 2015, 04:47:23 AM
It's also mainly ironic. They write "The Good" just after he double crosses Tuco.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 23, 2015, 06:34:55 AM
You never knew that the all-American blond boy is always going to be better than the Mexican? Just ask Donald Trump.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: Novecento on November 23, 2015, 11:05:49 AM
It was originally going to be called "Two Magnificent Rogues" in reference to Blondie and Tuco. The final name came much later on with all the ironic / relative connotations.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 23, 2015, 06:43:42 PM
And FOD was originally called The Magnificent Stranger  ;D
Leone's movies indeed were magnificent, without needing to piggyback on the success of The Magnificent Seven   ;)


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: Cusser on November 25, 2015, 06:38:13 AM
It was originally going to be called "Two Magnificent Rogues" in reference to Blondie and Tuco. The final name came much later on with all the ironic / relative connotations.

Yeah, but the dumb title remains for the German release.

Sergio Donati personally replied to me in an E-mail that they chose the final title in Italian (Il Buono.....), that it flowed much better that way, and it became GBU for the English version.  And that it better translates better as the Good, the Brutal, the Bad.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 26, 2015, 07:11:56 PM
Yeah, but the dumb title remains for the German release.

Sergio Donati personally replied to me in an E-mail that they chose the final title in Italian (Il Buono.....), that it flowed much better that way, and it became GBU for the English version.  And that it better translates better as the Good, the Brutal, the Bad.

How do you say "ugly" in Italian? Like, " Silvana Mangano  looks so ugly with armpit hair"?


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: Novecento on November 26, 2015, 08:37:36 PM
Yeah, but the dumb title remains for the German release.

Sergio Donati personally replied to me in an E-mail that they chose the final title in Italian (Il Buono.....), that it flowed much better that way, and it became GBU for the English version.  And that it better translates better as the Good, the Brutal, the Bad.

Is that due to alliteration in Italian - i.e. buono, brutto rather than buono, cattivo?


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 26, 2015, 09:33:30 PM
n_l, can you pls reduce the size of that picture of "the good"? It is stretching out my window. Thanks  :)


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: Cusser on November 27, 2015, 08:29:18 AM
Is that due to alliteration in Italian - i.e. buono, brutto rather than buono, cattivo?

Yes.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: iceman on November 30, 2015, 02:17:01 PM
he killed those 3 guys that were going to take Tuco in...

They drew on him first...most of those he kills usually draw on him first..so is that "murder".....he always gives them the option ..... er! doesn't he?...


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: stanton on November 30, 2015, 03:37:30 PM
Not always


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 30, 2015, 05:28:11 PM
Like Frayling quoted someone: In the American Western, the hero has the fastest gun; in the Leone Western, the one with the fastest gun is the hero  ;)


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: stanton on December 01, 2015, 02:02:19 AM
Like Frayling quoted someone: In the American Western, the hero has the fastest gun; in the Leone Western, the one with the fastest gun is the hero  ;)

Which is ... the same?


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: dave jenkins on December 01, 2015, 11:23:10 AM
Not at all. It's the difference between being and doing.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: stanton on December 01, 2015, 02:54:39 PM
Not really ...


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: Novecento on December 01, 2015, 03:23:52 PM
Which is ... the same?

I think what it is saying is that in the American Western the hero has to win and therefore he must have the fastest gun to be able to do so - hence by default the hero has the fastest gun. In the Leone Western, the fastest gun can be given to any character regardless of their morals thus making them the hero by default - hence the fastest gun is the hero.

By the way, D&D where is that quote in Frayling's work?


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 01, 2015, 07:22:20 PM
I think what it is saying is that in the American Western the hero has to win and therefore he must have the fastest gun to be able to do so - hence by default the hero has the fastest gun. In the Leone Western, the fastest gun can be given to any character regardless of their morals thus making them the hero by default - hence the fastest gun is the hero.

By the way, D&D where is that quote in Frayling's work?

I don't remember where he said it; i believe it is multiple places. I have read all his books, and watched all his  commentaries, and I don't remember where I heard this.

The point is,  in the AW, the hero is the "good guy," and they also give him the fastest gun-  but the fastest gun is not what MAKES him the hero. In the Leone Western, the character is not a "good guy" what MAKES him the hero is the fact that he is the fastest gun

We like Gary Cooper or John Wayne because they are the good guy ( and they happen to give the good guy the fastest gun so that we can have a happy ending). But We like Clint Eastwoid BECAUSE  he is the fastest gun, the coolest guy.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: stanton on December 02, 2015, 02:48:55 AM
I don't remember where he said it; i believe it is multiple places. I have read all his books, and watched all his  commentaries, and I don't remember where I heard this.

The point is,  in the AW, the hero is the "good guy," and they also give him the fastest gun-  but the fastest gun is not what MAKES him the hero. In the Leone Western, the character is not a "good guy" what MAKES him the hero is the fact that he is the fastest gun

We like Gary Cooper or John Wayne because they are the good guy ( and they happen to give the good guy the fastest gun so that we can have a happy ending). But We like Clint Eastwoid BECAUSE  he is the fastest gun, the coolest guy.

One strange thing is that when people compare the SW to the US Western ,they always compare the SW to the US W of the 50s. But al lot of things changed in the film world in the 60s within a few years. Compared to the then contemporary US Ws many of the often named differences are not there. The violence and the dirt and the rise of ambivalent protagonists happened in the US W parallel to the SW.

Actually the SW has still a hero, with only a few exceptions, but it is a modified hero, one which is less driven by ethic issues, and cause this hero has become more violent, the baddie had to become even more bad the before, up to an irrational point. In most SWs there is no doubt who is the good guy and who not, while the real anti-hero is to be find more in the US Ws of the late 60s and 70s.

There are strong differences between the SWs and the US Ws, but not that simplified view of the US W which mayn SW fans have. And which is btw also not realyl true about many of the older US W. Just watch Yellow Sky, or 40 Guns, or The Man with the Gun, or Blood on the Moon, or Man of the West, or or or ...
Even in Rio Bravo Wayne shoots an escaping rider in the back.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: stanton on December 02, 2015, 02:50:01 AM
I think what it is saying is that in the American Western the hero has to win and therefore he must have the fastest gun to be able to do so - hence by default the hero has the fastest gun. In the Leone Western, the fastest gun can be given to any character regardless of their morals thus making them the hero by default - hence the fastest gun is the hero.


I understand what this quote wants to say, only it is not really true. Like explained.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 02, 2015, 10:26:40 PM
No doubt, the hero of many AW's was not really a "good guy." Even going as far back as the late 30's, with STAGECOACH, JESSE JAMES, THE RETURN OF FRANK JAMES, into the 40's with RED RIVER and the 50's with THE SEARCHERS. And the Mann-Stewart "adult Westerns" of the 50's

Not all AW's had the same type of hero
It is, as stanton says, more a stereotype than an absolute reality. Still, TMWNN took it to a different level. He's the hero because he is the fastest gun and he is cool. Although TMWNN also has good qualities. Ultimately, he saves the "holy family," just as John Wayne in THE SEARCHERS ultimately saves his neice (or is it his daughter?)

Maybe this distinction between AW's and SW's, and the line quoted by Frayling, isn't 100% reality, but it's still a good line to repeat ;)      




Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: noodles_leone on December 03, 2015, 04:21:19 AM
One strange thing is that when people compare the SW to the US Western ,they always compare the SW to the US W of the 50s. But al lot of things changed in the film world in the 60s within a few years. Compared to the then contemporary US Ws many of the often named differences are not there. The violence and the dirt and the rise of ambivalent protagonists happened in the US W parallel to the SW.

Actually the SW has still a hero, with only a few exceptions, but it is a modified hero, one which is less driven by ethic issues, and cause this hero has become more violent, the baddie had to become even more bad the before, up to an irrational point. In most SWs there is no doubt who is the good guy and who not, while the real anti-hero is to be find more in the US Ws of the late 60s and 70s.

There are strong differences between the SWs and the US Ws, but not that simplified view of the US W which mayn SW fans have. And which is btw also not realyl true about many of the older US W. Just watch Yellow Sky, or 40 Guns, or The Man with the Gun, or Blood on the Moon, or Man of the West, or or or ...
Even in Rio Bravo Wayne shoots an escaping rider in the back.

When people talk about what is a SW and what is an AW, they're really talking about where things come from. For example: holsters. Holsters in the old west were not like the ones you see in AW and SW. When discussing SW outfits, nobody says holsters are SW elements. They've been stolen from AW. They're hollywoodian. The fact that they've been used in SW is irrelevent. The same goes with dirt and violence in post 1965 AW: it comes from SW. Of course it's been used in AW since then. It's still a SW element.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: stanton on December 03, 2015, 05:26:22 AM
The same goes with dirt and violence in post 1965 AW: it comes from SW. Of course it's been used in AW since then. It's still a SW element.

No it doesn't. it was already there in several westerns inthe 50s, and it developed in the first half of the 60s, and actually many SWs before Django (1966) look pretty clean. And still enough after Django.

If you watch a few key westerns of every year after 1960 you can see how everything developed without any SW influence, and Peckinpah was much more influential for the US W than any SW. I'm sure that The Dirty 12 and Bonnie and Clyde had more influence on the violence in westerns than the Dollar trilogy which was released in the US in the same year.

Just check Ride the High Country, Rio Conchos, Major Dundee, The Professionals or even some minor ones like Firecreek or Rough Night in Jericho, and you see how the western changed without any SW influence. I'm also sure The Wild Bunch would have been made that way without any SW existing. Actually I generally don't see much SW influence in US westerns apart from the ones by Eastwood.

I think the US directors mostly despised European westerns as a strange and tasteless anomaly, and did not care for them, and did not watch them.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: Novecento on December 03, 2015, 09:41:50 AM
Bonnie and Clyde was undoubtedly hugely influential.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: noodles_leone on December 03, 2015, 09:46:15 AM
No it doesn't. it was already there in several westerns inthe 50s, and it developed in the first half of the 60s, and actually many SWs before Django (1966) look pretty clean. And still enough after Django.

Yeah SOME AW had dirt, SW was almost characterized by dirt.

If you watch a few key westerns of every year after 1960 you can see how everything developed without any SW influence, and Peckinpah was much more influential for the US W than any SW. I'm sure that The Dirty 12 and Bonnie and Clyde had more influence on the violence in westerns than the Dollar trilogy which was released in the US in the same year.

That's the first time I read this theory, which is strongly opposed to everything I've read about western history. That doesn't mean you're wrong, but it means you should at least double check your facts before being so radical. However, here is something that means you're wrong: to me, Pecknipah was highly influenced by SW.
Also, Arthur Penn loved European cinema.

Just check Ride the High Country, Rio Conchos, Major Dundee, The Professionals or even some minor ones like Firecreek or Rough Night in Jericho, and you see how the western changed without any SW influence.

I've seen all of the examples you give but one. The dustiest have been done after many SW hit American theaters, other ones aren't that dusty: Major Dundee is dustier than, say, The Stagecoach, but come on, The Avengers is too.

I'm also sure The Wild Bunch would have been made that way without any SW existing.

You disagree with good old Peckinpah about violence and The Wild Bunch. He said a couple times he couldn't have done The Wild Bunch without Leone's westerns.

Actually I generally don't see much SW influence in US westerns apart from the ones by Eastwood.

I see a huge influence in US westerns. It doesn't mean they tried to look like SW (apart from a few ones by or with Eastwood). It means they took stuff from SW.

I think the US directors mostly despised European westerns as a strange and tasteless anomaly, and did not care for them, and did not watch them.

Maybe they did despise these movies. But money doesn't care about taste, especially when Hollywood's moneymaker genre was losing market shares.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: stanton on December 03, 2015, 02:10:05 PM
Yeah SOME AW had dirt, SW was almost characterized by dirt.

Actually a lot look quite clean.
Quote
That's the first time I read this theory, which is strongly opposed to everything I've read about western history. That doesn't mean you're wrong, but it means you should at least double check your facts before being so radical. However, here is something that means you're wrong: to me, Pecknipah was highly influenced by SW.

For me he was zero influenced by SWs. Everything is already there in his early westerns and also in his TV series The Westerner. I have watched nearly every important US Western and SW, and I know what I'm talking about.
It is quite interesting that in most books about Peckinpah Leone isn't even mentioned.


Quote
Also, Arthur Penn loved European cinema.
Penn loved Nouvelle Vague films, that is something very different. And his the Left Handed gun is already quite violent, and one with a more realistic approach towards costumes.
Quote
I've seen all of the examples you give but one. The dustiest have been done after many SW hit American theaters, other ones aren't that dusty: Major Dundee is dustier than, say, The Stagecoach, but come on, The Avengers is too.
Then watch the scenes in Ride the High Country in the gold camp, it looks like hell, and in Major Dundee, towards the end, Dundee and his men look like savages. And you find several examples for very dirty looking westerns already in the 40s.
Quote
You disagree with good old Peckinpah about violence and The Wild Bunch. He said a couple times he couldn't have done The Wild Bunch without Leone's westerns.


I'm sure he could. sure, Leone's westerns helped to increase violence, but it was increasing anyway, and as I said others were as influential or more influential. Just watch Night of the Living Dead (1968), which is verya unusual for that year.
Important was also a censorship code which was abandoned around 1968.

Quote
Maybe they did despise these movies. But money doesn't care about taste, especially when Hollywood's moneymaker genre was losing market shares.

But actually according to data from a book I have, the Dollar trilogy was less successful in the USA than I always assumed. They were highly profitable for UA, cause they bought the rights for a chicken shit, but compared to US westerns of the late 60s their box office results were far from impressive. Even Hang em High made more money.
And all the other SWs did far less thna the Leones.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: noodles_leone on December 03, 2015, 03:16:43 PM
I could each of these points but let's make things simple: I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying you're exagerating. Of course, SW didn't happen out of nowhere, the same thing was happening in the US and in Europe, more violence, more dirt... And of course you can find Italian westerns that looks like AW from the 50's and the other way around. I rest my case about the global picture.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: stanton on December 04, 2015, 02:47:55 AM
I do not think I'm exaggerating.

The Spagies took from the US Ws what they liked the most about them. They basically skipped talk, love scenes and the mythological superstructure, and they kept the action and the typical western atmosphere. And they made something unique out of their role models.
But all these elements were already there in the US Ws, and they were developed further at the same time when the SW swept in the European cinemas, before Leone appeared in the US theaters.

When I take now The Wild Bunch, the seminal US W of these years, than I see absolutely nothing in it which wasn't developed from the US W of the decade before, and Peckinpah's earlier films are the clearest forerunners for its style and its themes and its atmosphere.
Maybe the possibility to show the then excessive violence was helped to establish by Leone's then excessive violence, but when, then there were other films too. At best Leone helped to create the new freedom in showing violence, but he wasn't the only one. And the violence itself is completely different from the one created by Leone. Peckinpah's violence is very differently directed and is very differently linked to the story and the characters.

So, what is in TWB, which couldn't be derived form earlier US Ws, and especially from earlier Peckinpah westerns? IMO probably nothing.

Typical SW things like the use of music or the ritualised and choreographed duels did not find their way into US westerns.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: cigar joe on December 04, 2015, 04:45:10 AM
What I haven't seen mentioned in this discussion is STYLE in all its permutations i.e., cinematography, soundtrack, sound design which is one big contribution to the genre by Leone, coupled with that picaresque sense of humor.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: noodles_leone on December 04, 2015, 05:27:06 AM
So, what is in TWB, which couldn't be derived form earlier US Ws, and especially from earlier Peckinpah westerns? IMO probably nothing.

On top of my mind (even-though you already expressed your disagreement over some of them):

- Post modernism and meta cinema
- Anti heroes
- Violence
- Dust
- In your nose stylisation
- Iconisation of the main characters (through style, not through backstory or character development)
- Everything CJ just said
- Use of flash backs
- Bounty hunters

Once again I'm not saying "Leone created all this" because it probably never happened in the history of mankind: several people invent different variations of the same things at a particular time. Still, Peckinpah and others had seen some SW, mainly Leone ones, and it shows.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 04, 2015, 07:29:52 AM
There are some things a man can't ride around.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: Cusser on December 04, 2015, 08:09:49 AM
What I haven't seen mentioned in this discussion is STYLE in all its permutations i.e., cinematography, soundtrack, sound design which is one big contribution to the genre by Leone, coupled with that picaresque sense of humor.


I think THIS is the real reason these films live on.  One of those magical alignments of talent.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: stanton on December 06, 2015, 03:29:31 AM
On top of my mind (even-though you already expressed your disagreement over some of them):

- Post modernism and meta cinema



But TWB is not really a post modern film, but genres were generally more "intellectuallicised" in the late 60s, were remade, remodelled, like in Bonnie and Clyde (again) or in Point Blank or in the The Professionals.

And Peckinpah had already played with genre stereotypes in his earlier westerns. In RtHC he already had established a meta level in which the myth is questioned, and several genre conventions are turned upside down. While normally the heroes quarrel about the girl and fight against the baddies about the money, here they fall out cause of the money and the Hammond brothers only want the girl back. In the end not the good/bad man dies (like it still was in the screenplay), but the one with the moral on his side, and the moral of the film's protagonist is not the film's moral, so his death is a logical move.
In Major Dundee the opportunistic Dundee survives, while the more idealistic Tyreen dies.
But such elements were already at present in his TV show The Westerner.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: stanton on December 06, 2015, 04:14:30 AM


- Anti heroes
- Violence
- Dust



Actually I think that only a few SWs had some kind of an anti hero (Django Kills or Black Jack), what the SW brought to cinema was a newly modified kind of hero, one who is more selfish and more violent and less boud to a moral code. But in the end he is still the hero, still the best in everything, still doing the things the hero always does.
The real anti heroes are to be find later in several revisionist US Ws, like in Little Big Man, Bad Company, Kid Blue or Dirty Little Billy.

But Peckinpah's protagonists were already doubtful in their motivations in all his early films, and again already in The Westerner. And The Westerner had even established some SW like situations. In one episode Brian Keith arrives in a small Mexican village, it is abandoned, but it looks like it was abandoned only an hour ago. After leaving the town without solving the mystery, vultures lead him to a place in the hills full of corpses. He returns only to find the town now full of people, who try behave normally, but it is clear that they live in fear. A bunch of Mexican bandits hold them captive.
And the leader of them wears a totally worn out uniform with only one boot. Such an half barefoot bandit or the first scene of The Deadly Companions would have been doubtless labelled as influenced by SWs, if they were made in a 1970 film. In "The Line Camp" all cowboys wear clothes which are "worn, wrinkled and dirty" and the somehow absurd conflicts between the men arise of being stuffed together in a small cabin, being bored, drinking alcohol, envy and resentment. In "The Hand on the Gun" a man dies from a normally harmless bullet wound because they weren't able to stop the bleeding and in "Jeff" our hero begins to fight unfair when he fears to lose a fight against a pimp. when the pimp complains he answers that this is not a game. And the prostitute, for which he fought, and which he came to save, prefers to stay with her pimp.
And a more realistic and more violent approach towards violence is also apparent in every early Peckinpah film and again in his TV stuff, and for Major Dundee squibs and slow motion action was filmed, but all cut out by the producer. One scene with a squib and short slo mo moment is still there.
I already have said that many costumes in RtHC and Major Dundee are not less dusty and dirty than in SWs. And I find it also in many if not the most other US Ws of the 60s.

Generally, the more sadistic violence in SWs is mostly different from the increasing violence shown in US Ws throughout the 60s.

No, actually TWB may have had an influence by Leone, but everything in TWB is also and easily imaginable without any SW influence, but only following what was made in genre US genre films othe 60s, not only the westerns.
Peckinpah said in an interview that he watched FoD, and he speaks there very positively about Leone, so at least he knew this one film by Leone.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: noodles_leone on December 06, 2015, 06:19:52 AM
Actually I think that only a few SWs had some kind of an anti hero (django kills or Black Jack), what the SW brought to cinema was a newly modified kind of hero, one who is more selfish and more violent and less boud to a moral code. But in the end he is still the hero, still the best in everything, still doing the things the hero always does.
The real anti heroes are to be find later in several revisionist US Ws, like in Little Big Man, Bad Company, Kid Blue or Dirty Little Billy.

I'm gonna be the Titoli of the thread (which is very hard for me so be nice):

Quote
An antihero or antiheroine is a protagonist who lacks conventional heroic qualities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antihero

Selfishness and violence aren't conventional heroic qualities. The fact that US westerns went (very, very rarely) further than spags on the anti hero thing isn't contradicting what I said.

Now, I think you're right on one point: the evolution of mythology/cinema/society happened at the same time and in the same direction in Europe and in the USA and the evolution of westerns (both US and Spags) are part of the bigger picture so the exact impact of one over the other is kind of hard to track. I don't believe for a second, though, that there has been NO influence, like you're trying to demonstrate.

Last but not least, you're basing your whole argumentation on the quite suspicious "apart from Eastwood's movies" premise. Eastwood westerns, from 1975 to 1992, have been kind of the definition of what people meant by "American Western".


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: stanton on December 06, 2015, 08:29:56 AM




Now, I think you're right on one point: the evolution of mythology/cinema/society happened at the same time and in the same direction in Europe and in the USA and the evolution of westerns (both US and Spags) are part of the bigger picture so the exact impact of one over the other is kind of hard to track. I don't believe for a second, though, that there has been NO influence, like you're trying to demonstrate.

I would never say, that there was no influence, only that there was no influence directly visible ,nothing which cna't be explained by a development of style and themes already to be found in earlier US Ws. the SW and the US W existed parallel, and after the early SW phase, in which the SWs still relied on older Westerns, the SWs relied after Django more or less on themselves. And the later SWs also did not took much from US Ws, so that we have 2 parallel lines of developing westerns at the same time. In fact the SW, which is set in a destroyed west, should have come after the US twilight westerns, which are telling the destroying of the west.



Last but not least, you're basing your whole argumentation on the quite suspicious "apart from Eastwood's movies" premise. Eastwood westerns, from 1975 to 1992, have been kind of the definition of what people meant by "American Western".

But Eastwoods westerns are the only ones in which a SW influence is clearly traceable, all the other US Ws could stylistically and thematically very well be derived from earlier US Ws.

The most unique things like the the specific way to film shoot-outs or the ritualistic duels and the different use of music are hardly to find in any US W. The general atmosphere is of course the same.

So if there was an influence, it was not a crucial one. Not one which changed the heart of the US W.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: noodles_leone on December 06, 2015, 08:55:22 AM
But Eastwoods westerns are the only ones in which a SW influence is clearly traceable, all the other US Ws could stylistically and thematically very well be derived from earlier US Ws.

The most unique things like the the specific way to film shoot-outs or the ritualistic duels and the different use of music are hardly to find in any US W. The general atmosphere is of course the same.

So if there was an influence, it was not a crucial one. Not one which changed the heart of the US W.

This is like saying things like:

"Clint Eastwood has never starred in a SW. Apart from the Leone ones."
"If you forget TWB and PG&BTK, Sam Peckinpah hasn't really used that much slow motion in his western movies."

Even if this is technically true, you're purposely excluding the most important part.

Like I said, I see your point, and it's interesting. While not entirely right  :P

I also agree about Peckinpah being one of the most under-appreciated influence of not only AW but nowadays action movies. Most movie goers don't even know him today.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: stanton on December 06, 2015, 09:04:10 AM
This is like saying things like:

"Clint Eastwood has never starred in a SW. Apart from the Leone ones."
"If you forget TWB and PG&BTK, Sam Peckinpah hasn't really used that much slow motion in his western movies."

No, that's not the same. That is true, but not comparable to my "truth" about US Ws.

And what is the most important part?


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: noodles_leone on December 06, 2015, 09:35:53 AM
No, that's not the same. That is true, but not comparable to my "truth" about US Ws.

And what is the most important part?

I was answering to your "exept for Clint Eastwood westerns" point. You really cannot talk about post spags AW and not include the Clint ones. They're what people are picturing in their head when talking about American westerns.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: dave jenkins on December 06, 2015, 10:31:53 AM
Stanton:  O0 O0 O0


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: noodles_leone on December 06, 2015, 11:22:12 AM
Stanton:  O0 O0 O0

See Stanton? I'm right. Now I only have to wait for Drink to endorse your theory and my demonstration will be perfect.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: stanton on December 06, 2015, 11:39:52 AM
I was answering to your "exept for Clint Eastwood westerns" point. You really cannot talk about post spags AW and not include the Clint ones. They're what people are picturing in their head when talking about American westerns.

Ok, but I did not exclude them. Compared to the mass of westerns which were still made until the mid 70s, Eastwood's ones are a very, very small number. And as he was working in Italy finding an influence is not a surprise. But also his westerns are markedly different in many aspects. Apart from High Plains Drifter, which is some kind of aware travesty of FoD, and the change of the protagonist of 2 Mules for Sister Sara into a Man-without-a-name clone, his westerns do not reproduce the patterns of the SW too much.
But we are talking about a general influence on US Ws, and that is not really given imo. But there are several US Ws which are clearly inspired by TWB, and many 70s westerns are dealing very obviously with themes Peckinpah introduced in RtHC.

Question is if the US directors really cared about the SWs, if they really were curious enough to watch them, maybe they simply ignored them, which was easy as I assume reviews were mostly very negative. Also for Leone's work.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: cigar joe on December 06, 2015, 12:59:01 PM
But Eastwoods westerns are the only ones in which a SW influence is clearly traceable, all the other US Ws could stylistically and thematically very well be derived from earlier US Ws.

The most unique things like the the specific way to film shoot-outs or the ritualistic duels and the different use of music are hardly to find in any US W. The general atmosphere is of course the same.

So if there was an influence, it was not a crucial one. Not one which changed the heart of the US W.

Baquero with Lee Van Cleef had the SW influence.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: stanton on December 06, 2015, 01:12:32 PM
Baquero with Lee Van Cleef had the SW influence.

Really? 

It is probably the first apart from the Eastwood films which I would suspect to have a SW influence, but actually I can't remember anything in it which is specifically SW style. And Gordon Douglas always made comparatively violent films.
I'm sure that Rio Conchos, if made a few years later, would also have been suspected to have had an influence from the Spagies.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: dave jenkins on December 06, 2015, 05:12:07 PM
Really? 

It is probably the first apart from the Eastwood films which I would suspect to have a SW influence, but actually I can't remember anything in it which is specifically SW style. .
it has a ton of Leone-esque CUs of leering bad guys.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: noodles_leone on December 06, 2015, 05:57:45 PM
Other obvious ones:

El Condor
Monte Walsh
The Magnificent Seven Ride


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: stanton on December 07, 2015, 02:10:12 AM
Other obvious ones:

El Condor
Monte Walsh
The Magnificent Seven Ride

Monte Walsh surely not, the other 2 are also westerns with van Cleef, and there is a bit more SW influence visible, but I think it is even in El condor less visible than in Eastwood's films. Actually these are 2 mediocre films, and I don't remember much from them, El condor being shot in Spain is maybe a border case for being a vehicle for its star, who made his career only with Spagies.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: noodles_leone on December 07, 2015, 06:33:16 AM
I really meant "obvious". Because, really, if you deny the huge SW influence in these 3 movies, I see why you don't see it in TWB either.

About Monte Walsh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUjCz0x2gTY check out the 2 hours 26 minutes mark, for example.

We could go on, it's easy, Wikipedia features a list of western films by year. And I haven't even started about TV series: even the most american show ever, little house in the prairies, had its share of SW episodes!

I'm gonna say it a last time: I see your point about AW evolving by themselves anyway, you're not wrong at all, but denying the big SW influence on american westerns of the 60's/70's makes no sense. You may have a very limited vision of what SW are. For the record, I don't even like most SW.


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: dave jenkins on December 07, 2015, 12:15:00 PM
I really meant "obvious". Because, really, if you deny the huge SW influence in these 3 movies, I see why you don't see it in TWB either.

About Monte Walsh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUjCz0x2gTY check out the 2 hours 26 minutes mark, for example.

I see nothing dispositive there. Who invented the Calculus, Leibniz or Newton?


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: noodles_leone on December 08, 2015, 02:14:26 AM
I see nothing dispositive there. Who invented the Calculus, Leibniz or Newton?

Leone.

You guys cannot be serious and you'll be embarrassed by this thread in a week. I'll leave the discussion now, it's becoming pointless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TDe-z4pgS0


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: emmo26 on December 22, 2015, 04:32:29 PM
'Good' because he was the 'guardian angel' to tuco, gave the drink to the dying captain and shared a smoke with the dying soldier


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: Cusser on December 23, 2015, 07:32:22 AM
'Good' because he was the 'guardian angel' to tuco, gave the drink to the dying captain and shared a smoke with the dying soldier


having head in a noose can cause health issues

drinking can cause health issues

smoking can cause health issues


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: Novecento on January 07, 2016, 09:31:03 AM
Like Frayling quoted someone: In the American Western, the hero has the fastest gun; in the Leone Western, the one with the fastest gun is the hero  ;)

Pauline Kael:

Quote
It used to be that the man who stood for high principles was the man who was also the best shot. Now we no longer believe that in order to be a great shot you need principles at all. And Clint Eastwood is a totally unprincipled killer.

From the 24:13 mark here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAhX6esloTs


Title: Re: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 07, 2016, 11:54:48 PM
Pauline Kael:

From the 24:13 mark here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAhX6esloTs

Great stuff - I am delighted to find a new documentary on Leone that I have never seen before. Thanks for sharing  O0