Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => The Good, The Bad and The Ugly => Topic started by: Lil Brutto on June 01, 2016, 06:01:46 PM



Title: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 01, 2016, 06:01:46 PM
2016 is turning out to be a pretty impressive year for GBU fans!  

First, we had the highly anticipated release of Dr. Hanley's mind-blowing book, a labor of love that took decades to become a reality.

Today, the first of several snippets of previously unseen footage from an enigmatic Italian dye-transfer print that has never been documented before!

Check it out here:

http://theeditroomfloor.blogspot.ca/2016/06/unseen-footage-from-good-bad-and-ugly.html



Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: dave jenkins on June 01, 2016, 06:27:47 PM
Holy Leone!  O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: cigar joe on June 01, 2016, 07:08:15 PM
cool  O0 O0 O0 O0


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: stanton on June 02, 2016, 05:52:14 AM
Holy crap, and still no copy found of the real Holy Grail of the true GBUistic, the so called Stanton cut, aka as the most reasonable one. What's wrong with this world?


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Le Bon on June 02, 2016, 07:06:08 AM
Great to see some news on this work.  O0 O0


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: dave jenkins on June 02, 2016, 10:17:47 AM
I'm looking forward to the follow-up on this:

Quote
In 2014, MGM released on home video a 4K restoration, sourced from the original camera negative, of the most complete version (to date) of The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly. This cut combines almost all known elements from both versions (the international cut has unique footage not found in the Italian releases).

However, despite the overall quality of the release, there was controversy amongst fans of the film over the greenish/yellow toned colour correction the Italian restoration team chose to apply.

 Since L'Immagine Retrovatta / Cineteca di Bologna went back to the camera negative, they were forced to "re-time/re-colour" the entire film, supposedly using a vintage print as reference. Two years later, having personally seen scans of 5 different vintage 1966/1967 prints from Italy/Canada/U.S.A/ and Germany, I can say without a doubt they went too far with the yellow/green tone and it does not reflect the original colour correction of the film as released in 1966/1967.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 02, 2016, 04:21:08 PM
RE: This paragraph:


"In 2014, MGM released on home video a 4K restoration, sourced from the original camera negative, of the most complete version (to date) of The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly. This cut combines almost all known elements from both versions (the international cut has unique footage not found in the Italian releases)."


Is there any footage on this 2014 release that was not on the Special Edition DVD or the previous BRD released by MGM?


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Novecento on June 02, 2016, 05:38:32 PM
Great post - thanks for sharing.

The extra close-ups in the scene shared there are of course very Leone-esque. However, it is perhaps even more Leone-esque not to show them (as is the case in the released prints) because Leone loved to tease the audience to build tension - in this case, showing that the father and the son have seen the same concerning thing (i.e. Angel Eyes), but not yet showing us what/who it is.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: stanton on June 03, 2016, 02:45:18 AM
RE: This paragraph:


"In 2014, MGM released on home video a 4K restoration, sourced from the original camera negative, of the most complete version (to date) of The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly. This cut combines almost all known elements from both versions (the international cut has unique footage not found in the Italian releases)."


Is there any footage on this 2014 release that was not on the Special Edition DVD or the previous BRD released by MGM?

No, it's the same version as the DVD from 2004. Otherwise there would have been at least 1000 pages of discussing this here.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: stanton on June 03, 2016, 02:46:19 AM
Great post - thanks for sharing.

The extra close-ups in the scene shared there are of course very Leone-esque. However, it is perhaps even more Leone-esque not to show them (as is the case in the released prints) because Leone loved to tease the audience to build tension - in this case, showing that the father and the son have seen the same concerning thing (i.e. Angel Eyes), but not yet showing us what/who it is.

But you see him already before standing in the door, and it is clear at whom both look.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 03, 2016, 05:40:37 AM
No, it's the same version as the DVD from 2004. Otherwise there would have been at least 1000 pages of discussing this here.

One difference in the 2014 version is trimmed frames on the second closeup shot of blondies eyes as he loads his gun feverishly when the bandits are about to ambush him. (Just after the shot when they first start to touch the handle on the door) The first extended cut/restoration has a small jump cut in that shot, which is also present on most vintage prints. In the 2014 version Blondie doesn't look down at the end of the shot, in the other versions he does. The shot in its most complete form (still slight jump cut) is actually on the Italian blu Ray. There are minor differences like this in the 2014 version because it was a completely new restoration done by the Italian team, the 2002 version was done by the Americans.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Leonardo on June 03, 2016, 07:06:58 AM
Thanks Jordan for crediting me with the translation, much appreciated. Good to know that in a very small way, I have contributed somehow to your effort...You know you can count on me any time for translations and other stuff you may need from Italy. :) :)


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 03, 2016, 09:04:54 AM
Thanks Jordan for crediting me with the translation, much appreciated. Good to know that in a very small way, I have contributed somehow to your effort...You know you can count on me any time for translations and other stuff you may need from Italy. :) :)

Your work with the translation and help with obtaining that Italian book was a huge help and much appreciated, of course I'd give the credit where credit is due! Thanks again Len


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 03, 2016, 09:06:06 AM
I'm looking forward to the follow-up on this:


I'm going to do an entire blog post with references from all the different prints in an attempt to clarify the whole issue over the color timing. Stay tuned...


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Dirty Rat on June 03, 2016, 03:55:30 PM
Amazing. It's amazing what just a few newly discovered frames can do to a man.....!!!!!!!
Why the hell are we all so obsessed with this film?
Don't even try to answer that one!

Thanks for the cut.

What is this "Stanton cut"?


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: stanton on June 04, 2016, 05:16:57 AM


What is this "Stanton cut"?


The perfect version that I would release, of course. Italian version minus 2 scenes (Eastwood and LvC in their night camp, Wallach asking for the way to the monastery) and with the shorter torture Scene and (why not?) with that short scene at the end with Eastwood mounting his horse. And of course without the cave scene.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: mike siegel on June 04, 2016, 10:05:44 AM
Sounds good!


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: dave jenkins on June 04, 2016, 12:02:50 PM
I'm going to do an entire blog post with references from all the different prints in an attempt to clarify the whole issue over the color timing. Stay tuned...
That's what I'm doing.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 04, 2016, 02:17:55 PM
That's what I'm doing.

Cool, maybe we can join forces! I'm hoping to post samples from all 5 35mm prints that we scanned, four of them are 1966/1967 vintage.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 04, 2016, 02:24:28 PM
DJ, what elements are you planning to include in your color timing analysis? I know you attended the IB tech screening at the NewBev last year.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: dave jenkins on June 04, 2016, 03:10:38 PM
No, no, all I was saying was I'm "staying tuned" as Jordan Krug advised. I don't have the wherewithal to offer anything like what you're doing. I did attend the screening of the IB Tech print shown in LA last year, and I'd be happy to confirm anything you guys may say about it, but that's about all I can manage. Sorry for the confusion.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: dave jenkins on June 04, 2016, 03:20:54 PM
The perfect version that I would release, of course. Italian version minus 2 scenes (Eastwood and LvC in their night camp, Wallach asking for the way to the monastery) and with the shorter torture Scene and (why not?) with that short scene at the end with Eastwood mounting his horse. And of course without the cave scene.
That's certainly not the version I'd release. No, the "DJ Cut" would include everything that's out there, plus several things that aren't: Socorro, of course, but also the scene where AE and Wallace ambush the Union soldiers and steal their identities. I'd also have Bob Hope speaking to the Union troops just before the final charge at Langstone Bridge. I'd probably also release GBU 2, where Tuco finally catches up to Blondie and gives him the death he deserves. Somebody point me in the direction of the nearest CGI office suite!


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 04, 2016, 03:31:27 PM
Lol


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 04, 2016, 07:57:12 PM
RE: the perfect version of GBU:

I presume that the original Italian release version - not the one from the Rome premiere, but the one released widely in theaters -- is the version Leone probably wanted? That would be my preferred version. I believe that is identical to the MGM extended DVD/BRD, minus the Cave scene, right?

Of course, since the restored scenes have no English dialogue dubbed in 1967, we'd have to use the 2003 dialogue. I can live with that. But I'd prefer to have all of the Aldo Giuffre character's English-language dialogue re-dubbed by one voice actor. As it is now, part of his dialogue was dubbed by a voice actor for the 1967 release, and the other part (of him discussing alcohol, which was not in the 1967 US release) was dubbed by another voice actor in 2004, and the difference is glaring. I'd like to have all his dialogue dubbed by one voice actor.

Of course, I'd like the original English mono audio.

For color, from the existing versions, I'd say that the best is probably the MGM SE DVD, or the Italian Mondo BRD (but that BRD has awful issues, with a jump image - what is the proper term, is it "grading"?)

I do not like the piss color of the most recent release or the red faces of the MGM BRD. So I guess that the color of the MGM SE DVD, or the Mondo minus the grading issues, would be good.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 04, 2016, 10:06:05 PM
The colors as it was originally presented theatrically back in the 60s is how I want to see it.

Over the past few years I've come full circle and prefer the International Cut, which is the only version I knew for 20 years. If it had included the Fort scene it would have been absolutely perfect, in my opinion.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 04, 2016, 10:56:09 PM
The colors as it was originally presented theatrically back in the 60s is how I want to see it.

Over the past few years I've come full circle and prefer the International Cut, which is the only version I knew for 20 years. If it had included the Fort scene it would have been absolutely perfect, in my opinion.

I think everyone in the world wants to see the color as it looked back in the 60's. Question is, how did it look?

I doubt that even people like CJ and Cusser, who saw the film in theater on original release, can remember the exact color. However, I am sure that neither the red faces of the 2009 BRD, nor the awful piss of the 2014 BRD, are the correct colors.

For those of you who like the International Cut, I guess the 1997 MGM DVD is great - you have your version of the film, plus the other scenes as bonus features (albeit without English dialogue). For people like me who want to see the extra scenes as part of the movie, we have to choose from a range of less-than-perfect options. We've gone over the drawbacks to each version extensively - the red faces of 2009 MGM BRD; the piss of the 2014 BRD (the only extended version with original English mono audio); the lack of mono and John Jerk's fake gunshots on the  MGM SE DVD; the grading issue (is that the right word?) and no English audio on the Mondo BRD.

Of course, I wish a definitive version is produced - proper color, mono audio, and seamless branching options so that each viewer can choose which scene(s) to see.

But for the options we have now, when I want to watch the movie I think that I'll probably choose the SE DVD. But if I want to hear Frayling's commentary, which is only on the BRD, then I'll choose the 2009 BRD. Perhaps because those were the first discs that I saw the movie on, so I got used to them. I can understand, of course, how someone who saw and loved the International version for 35 years can prefer that version. To me, the movie HAS TO include the Fort scene. Also, I don't know why you'd have a problem with including the night scene where Tuco drives Blondie in the coach to the Confederate base - it gives a bit of info about the location, explains how Tuco suddenly remembers, hey this place is near his brother's mission; it's a brief scene, I do not know why it would bother you.
IMO the unnecessary scene is the one with Blondie and Angel Eyes bivouacked near the river, and Angel Eyes's men come out of hiding. I do not see what that adds to the story at all. That scene tells us that AE's men were hiding and then came out of hiding; Without that scene, we'd have never known they were hiding at all; we'd have just thought they all left the camp together, with AE and Blondie. Am I wrong? Also, you hear a train whistle at the end of the scene, letting us know that the train with Tuco and Wallace is nearby. Okay. Not a necessary scene. Also, the extra footage of Tuco taunting Blondie in the desert is IMO not necessary. But neither is the Gunshop sequence. Nor is the sequence of the Union captain lecturing AE to treat the POW's humanely - all that accomplishes is getting in a historical reference to Andersonville, with AE making the same arguments (lack of supplies) that the commandant of Andersonville did.

Hey, there's lotsa stuff in GBU that's not necessary to the plot. But who cares? Plot ain't what this movie is about. In regard to the question of which scenes you want included, it's mostly not about plot; all about which scenes you enjoy or don't enjoy  ;)


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: stanton on June 05, 2016, 02:32:43 AM


Hey, there's lotsa stuff in GBU that's not necessary to the plot. But who cares? Plot ain't what this movie is about. In regard to the question of which scenes you want included, it's mostly not about plot; all about which scenes you enjoy or don't enjoy  ;)

Of course, that's one reason. The more important is that a film has a certain rhythm, and adding or removing scenes can become problematic for that. The scenes I mentioned have no importance for the plot, are visually bland (are amongst the weakest of the film), do not add anything important to the civil war background motives and slow down the film too much. These scenes destroy the perfect harmony and make GBU a little bit less good.

But then GBU was already a masterpiece in the 161 min version, while the British 148 min version did some damage to the film. Or the strange German TV version which run for about 141 min.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: stanton on June 05, 2016, 02:35:47 AM
That's certainly not the version I'd release. No, the "DJ Cut" would include everything that's out there, plus several things that aren't: Socorro, of course, but also the scene where AE and Wallace ambush the Union soldiers and steal their identities. I'd also have Bob Hope speaking to the Union troops just before the final charge at Langstone Bridge.

You forgot the alternative ending with Sentenza winning the triello. I forgot that too.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 05, 2016, 07:27:56 AM
You forgot the alternative ending with Sentenza winning the triello. I forgot that too.

Or that they all shoot each other (Blondie gets off a shot at both Tuco and AE, but AE gets off a shot at Blondie) and the gold stays buried in the grave, to be found by Leone fans making the pilgrimage to shooting locations in Spain.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: dave jenkins on June 05, 2016, 08:29:16 AM

Of course, since the restored scenes have no English dialogue dubbed in 1967, we'd have to use the 2003 dialogue.
Why? The soundtrack could revert to Italian with English subtitles. Plenty of titles use this technique now.

Anyway, insisting on a single version of this film is childish. There has to be a version that resembles what was seen in US theaters in January of 1968. There has to be a version that resembles what was seen in Italian cinemas in 1967. If someone wants 2003 in English, well, that's yet another version. There may be any number of alternate cuts out there with various dubs that are worth keeping. Let's keep them all and celebrate the differences.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: dave jenkins on June 05, 2016, 10:57:41 AM
Or that they all shoot each other (Blondie gets off a shot at both Tuco and AE, but AE gets off a shot at Blondie) and the gold stays buried in the grave, to be found by Leone fans making the pilgrimage to shooting locations in Spain.
;D ;D


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: dave jenkins on June 05, 2016, 11:03:35 AM
It's going to take a LONG time to digitally clean up the image so the plan is to release a "grindhouse" version with little-to-no digital cleanup of the scanned image. The goal of this project is to faithfully reproduce the presentation of the film during its first theatrical release. (For someone like me or DJ, this will also be like attending the summer 2015 screening at The NewBev in LA.)

This is going to be special.
Are you going to then screen the print, or transfer it to disc, or both? How are we going to be able to enjoy the fruits of your labor?

If nothing else, this will serve as a reference for other home video versions we may have. It may be possible to manipulate the colors on commercial discs available. We just need to know what the target colors are.

Keep up the good work and keep us updated! O0


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Novecento on June 05, 2016, 08:01:45 PM
A HD video will be released online for download. No details yet on how exactly it will be made available.

Are you going to run into any copyright issues doing that?


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 05, 2016, 08:07:09 PM
I'm not the one releasing it.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 07, 2016, 08:48:42 AM
Another visual treat has been posted on the blog at the link below. The "skeleton shot"!

http://theeditroomfloor.blogspot.ca/2016/06/unseen-footage-from-good-bad-and-ugly_7.html


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 07, 2016, 06:23:04 PM
At that link, it says, "The 5.1 mix was started from scratch, using completely new sound effects."

Is that referring to the entire movie or only this desert scene? I thought the 5.1 only redid the gunshots??


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 07, 2016, 08:43:10 PM
The entire movie, and there are various effects replaced, like the glass tuco crashes through in the opening scene. I guess my wording is a bit confusing, I'll amend it or even remove the line. Thanks


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Le Bon on June 08, 2016, 03:02:36 PM
Its great to see the skeleton scene fragment.
So if there was any more of this it is would have been on the beginning of reel 4 which is badly damaged and incomplete?


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 08, 2016, 06:04:17 PM
The entire movie, and there are various effects replaced, like the glass tuco crashes through in the opening scene. I guess my wording is a bit confusing, I'll amend it or even remove the line. Thanks


So what was written here years ago about only the gunshots being changed is false?


Is it possible to hate John Kirk even more????????


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 08, 2016, 06:56:49 PM
Its great to see the skeleton scene fragment.
So if there was any more of this it is would have been on the beginning of reel 4 which is badly damaged and incomplete?


Or the end of reel 3...unfortunately until we can find any more evidence it's difficult to say. Cutting from the end of r3 directly to the beginning of r4 doesn't make much sense, especially since the music is repeated from earlier in the desert scene (in the boot scene)...it feels like the rest of the skeleton scene had to be in between at some point.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Novecento on June 08, 2016, 08:49:53 PM
Another visual treat has been posted on the blog at the link below. The "skeleton shot"!

http://theeditroomfloor.blogspot.ca/2016/06/unseen-footage-from-good-bad-and-ugly_7.html

Very cool to see those bones there! However, I understand why this was cut as it plays better without - Blondie's tumble and then slide into the bones is pretty fake looking. Nonetheless, this is really exciting stuff!


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Le Bon on June 09, 2016, 10:01:07 AM
Very cool to see those bones there! However, I understand why this was cut as it plays better without - Blondie's tumble and then slide into the bones is pretty fake looking. Nonetheless, this is really exciting stuff!


Yes. Eastwood also looks left down the ridge either checking where to fall or for his cue. If it carries on as scripted, which it may not have, there would have been a repeat of Tuco shooting something from his hand (bone/water bottle)


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: emmo26 on June 12, 2016, 08:00:40 AM
The 'bones' cut probably informs the audience that tuco has already done this type of thing before


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: stanton on June 12, 2016, 09:18:08 AM
Actually I think I have lost track now what is what.

Is the IB print of Jordan Krug identical to the Cineteca Nazionale copy?

And this "3.363 frames, equal to 64,67 meters or 2’22” substituted by tail due to the cuts by Leone in 1966" is due to the Grotto missing from these prints? Or was it the shortened torture scene plus the Sorry Tuco past? The latter probably.

And Leone cut the original negative, but replaced the cuts with black tail, so that the soundtrack remains synchron? Why not cutting both if the cuts were destined to be permanent?


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 12, 2016, 10:02:58 AM
Is the IB print of Jordan Krug identical to the Cineteca Nazionale copy?

It's clearly an early print but probably not identical to the CN copy since there is no mention of the skeleton shot, which after examination they would have obviously identified as unique footage missing from the ON. The CN copy also includes, "6 meters of the two signs “end of first half” and “second half”. These are missing from the Italian 35mm but it's possible they were cut out at some point.

And this "3.363 frames, equal to 64,67 meters or 2’22” substituted by tail due to the cuts by Leone in 1966" is due to the Grotto missing from these prints? Or was it the shortened torture scene plus the Sorry Tuco past? The latter probably.

The grotto scene was not included in the CN copy. The 3363 frames were cut from the torture scene and by removing "Sorry Tuco".

And Leone cut the original negative, but replaced the cuts with black tail, so that the soundtrack remains synchron? Why not cutting both if the cuts were destined to be permanent?

No clue.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: stanton on June 13, 2016, 04:39:55 AM
Ok, but then the Cineteca Nazionale copy and the print which Jordan owns, are definitely not the theatrical release versions, but copies made before Leone made further cuts, which was shortly before the film was released?

Which then would also mean that the Italian discs still represent the version Leone in the end wanted as release version?

And is there anywhere a mentioning of a private copy of GBU, which Leone had taken back for himself, and which represents his perfect version? And which probably included both the Grotto and the Socorro scene?


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 13, 2016, 08:39:38 AM
Ok, but then the Cineteca Nazionale copy and the print which Jordan owns, are definitely not the theatrical release versions, but copies made before Leone made further cuts, which was shortly before the film was released?

Which then would also mean that the Italian discs still represent the version Leone in the end wanted as release version?

And is there anywhere a mentioning of a private copy of GBU, which Leone had taken back for himself, and which represents his perfect version? And which probably included both the Grotto and the Socorro scene?

Ok, let me try to clear up a few things. I don't own the print. I work as an editor so I have the capabilities to work with the scans which is partially why I'm involved.

This is just my opinion - but I think the Cineteca Nazionale copy IS a copy of the release print. I think the Cineteca Nazionale copy represents THE 1966 cut, as that was the one chosen to be archived in 1966. There IS a mention of Leone's personal print/cut in an italian book published in the 70's (which I also have the translation for thanks to Leonardo), it contains neither the grotto scene or the soccoro. Snippets of the full beating scene were found on an 8mm copy from the 70's, so that is at least 3 instances of prints that contained the full beating scene.

We don't know what this print is, without a second one like it in circulation, it makes me think it was a "test screening" print.  

*EDIT* Lil Brutto actually convinced me I'm slightly off in my theory here. I've removed the portions where I now believe I erred. I'll let him elaborate :)


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 13, 2016, 10:01:23 AM
Here's the translation from the book I mentioned, it doesn't mention the beating scene, it looks to me like the author only knew of the post 1969 version which was cut down, all of these scenes are ones we know and were part of the film in 1966:

L’ANTIWESTERN E IL CASO LEONE – FRANCO FERRINI – PAGE 43-44

Also Leone’s personal copy of GBU is longer than the Italian commercial version of the film. The

cuts involve following scenes:

1. The Bad (Lee Van Cleef) goes to a semi-abandoned and semi-destroyed fort. In the ruins

some confederate soldiers retreating before the advancing union soldiers found a

temporary shelter. Almost all of them are wounded. Some soldiers boil the only thing left to

eat: empty corn cobs.

The Bad asks a soldier about the fate of a comrade in arms, Bill Carson. The soldier

answers that unless he was killed in a battle, he must have been captured and sent to the

Betterville prison camp.

2. A scene where during the desert crossing, Blondie shows his face scorched by the salt and

the sun. Beside him, a bucket. Blondie painfully tries to drink from it. The camera moves

and shows that it is not drinking water, but a bucket used by Tuco to wash his feet. Tuco

kicks and knocks over the bucket with a sneer.

3. The Ugly (Eli Wallach), pretending to be Bill Carson (he changed his appearance

accordingly, even by wearing a black eye patch) arrives at a confederate camp. He asks

where the infirmary is. An old soldier explains that there is no infirmary. But if he wants to,

he can try at the San Antonio mission, where the friars will take care of his buddy Blondie,

who barely survived the desert crossing which Tuco himself forced him to.

4. Afterwards, a map is being checked; around them, just dead bodies and desolation.

5. Blondie is sleeping at a camp fire with the Bad. He wakes up. Some birds sing their dreary

nightly song in the bushes. But he did not wake up because of the birds. In fact, six buddies

of the Bad are about to join them. The Good states that “Six is the perfect number”. The

Bad replies saying that he always thought that three was the perfect number. The Good just

says “Yes, but I have six bullets in my pistol”.

6. A scene where the Union captain who is fighting against the Confederates to gain control

over the Langstone bridge explains to the Good and the Ugly the miraculous virtues of

alcohol, “the most powerful weapon in the army”. He adds that the only thing that the

Yankees and the Confederates have in common is the stench of alcohol.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Groggy on June 13, 2016, 06:17:44 PM
Thanks for your valuable work here, guys! O0


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 13, 2016, 08:43:42 PM
*EDIT* Lil Brutto actually convinced me I'm slightly off in my theory here. I've removed the portions where I now believe I erred. I'll let him elaborate :)

Putting me to work, eh??  ;D I will post my theory based on available information once I have it all organized in my lil' pea brain.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: stanton on June 14, 2016, 03:00:56 AM
Sorry Lil Brutto, I did not want to belittle your great work.

But these IB prints, what they are exactly? As I do understand it these were some kind of special copies on better material, not the usual copies for theatres, which quickly perish in the daily use.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 14, 2016, 05:25:26 AM
Sorry Lil Brutto, I did not want to belittle your great work.

But these IB prints, what they are exactly? As I do understand it these were some kind of special copies on better material, not the usual copies for theatres, which quickly perish in the daily use.

Back in 66/67 certain prestige movies were theatrically released on IB tech stock, IB techs are harder to make, they use a 3 stage dye process (each primary color spectrum is separated) that produces superior colors. In the mid 70's for cost reasons everyone switched to Eastman prints, which they found out 15-20 years later were extremely prone to fading red. (Some directors would still have a few IBtech prints made into the late 70's/early 80's, for example there were a few IB's made of Star Wars). The IBtechs don't fade, however you do run into the odd reel where one of the colors is off registration (since the colors were printed separately)  so you end up with a red or green halo around everything.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 14, 2016, 07:36:38 AM
Back in 66/67 certain prestige movies were theatrically released on IB tech stock, IB techs are harder to make, they use a 3 stage dye process (each primary color spectrum is separated) that produces superior colors. In the mid 70's for cost reasons everyone switched to Eastman prints, which they found out 15-20 years later were extremely prone to fading red. (Some directors would still have a few IBtech prints made into the late 70's/early 80's, for example there were a few IB's made of Star Wars). The IBtechs don't fade, however you do run into the odd reel where one of the colors is off registration (since the colors were printed separately)  so you end up with a red or green halo around everything.

Were all the Technicolor movies made in IB tech prints?

I heard that the last movie to use Technicolor was The Godfather Part 2.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 14, 2016, 08:42:01 AM
Adding to Jordan's post above, here's a video that should answer any questions about Technicolor IB dye-transfer prints: https://youtu.be/g9S76vtk4Ro

As you all probably know, the director makes a decision about how the film should "look" (i.e. color timing) with respect to exposure and color balance, as well as scene-to-scene continuity. This also gave the director a creative/artistic opportunity to set a certain mood for a scene/film and establish a stylized look. A run of theatrical prints would be produced that reflected the director's vision. IB TECH prints are essentially time capsules because of their well-known characteristic of being fade resistant and, therefore, all these years later shed light on the "look" of the film when it was presented theatrically. This is vital for a preservation project such ours because, nearly 50 years later, we can see for ourselves the "look" Sergio Leone was going for.

The controversy surrounding the 2014 4K BD stems from the fact that a restoration using the original negative (which does NOT contain any information about the color timing or "look") can be problematic if the restoration team does not have a reference to recreate the "look". L'immagine ritrovata DID refer to IB TECH prints but somehow botched their interpretation of the "look". Although this is only speculation, we suspect this is because they didn't compensate for the projector bulb temperature. In the 60s they were still using a carbon arc light source, which has its characteristic color temperature, and the prints were timed accordingly. The same print projected through a projector with a modern light source (at a different color temperature) would shift the colors on the spectrum. In GBU's case this led to a misinterpretation of what they were seeing (a greenish-yellow image) as the originally intended look. Or was it revisionism?


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: dave jenkins on June 14, 2016, 05:09:36 PM
Or was it revisionism?
That gets my vote. I'd favor your theory if GBU were an isolated case, but there are several "restorations" going around now where the colors do not represent what was originally projected. All the "restorers" are failing to compensate for projector bulb temperature? I don't think so.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 14, 2016, 05:59:30 PM
In the case of GBU, wasn't the piss "restoration" done on the basis of a comment by an assistant camera operator (Sarti?) that Leone wanted a yellow/brown look? If that's the case, it would seem that the shitty look is not all based merely on failure to compensate for bulbs or whatever; this was an (erroneous) DECISION to make the BRD look that way.


Anyway, according to what you are saying, whenever a restoration proudly advertises that it is made from THE ORIGINAL CAMERA NEGATIVE, that can actually be a big drawback cuz that does not necessarily look like the theatrical print (which is filmmaker-approved)? And even using a theatrical IB Technicolor print still doesn't ensure correct color if they don't properly compensate for the bulbs ...




Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Novecento on June 14, 2016, 09:20:56 PM
Although this is only speculation, we suspect this is because they didn't compensate for the projector bulb temperature. In the 60s they were still using a carbon arc light source, which has its characteristic color temperature, and the prints were timed accordingly. The same print projected through a projector with a modern light source (at a different color temperature) would shift the colors on the spectrum. In GBU's case this led to a misinterpretation of what they were seeing (a greenish-yellow image) as the originally intended look. Or was it revisionism?

Are you sure that a modern bulb would bead to a greenish-yellow projected image as opposed to a different color? If such a color shift is a well-known phenomenon, then it would support your hypothesis. However, it would concomitantly give rise to the question as to why they weren't aware of such a well-known thing.

That gets my vote. I'd favor your theory if GBU were an isolated case, but there are several "restorations" going around now where the colors do not represent what was originally projected. All the "restorers" are failing to compensate for projector bulb temperature? I don't think so.

You mean the now ubiquitous "teal and orange", although in this case being more of a "green and yellow" to keep a sort of old fashioned sepia tinge?


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 14, 2016, 09:53:05 PM
You've all brought up valid points. Again, failing to correct for the projector light source is only one of probably several factors that contributed to the image of the 4K BD. When the print was scanned with a "pure white" xenon light source the scanned image was consistently more on the greenish yellow side and that had to be corrected afterwards. I'm not suggesting that the light source is the only factor. In fact, there is evidence of revisionism. Have a look at the screencaps found on L'immagine ritrovata's website:

http://distribuzione.ilcinemaritrovato.it/il-buono-il-brutto-il-cattivo

These images are clearly different than what we see on the BD. Perhaps this is what Giancarlo Santi approved and afterwards the image was further altered digitally? By boosting the contrast and saturation of the screencap of LVC in Photoshop I was able to get an image that looks more like that on the BD. Even the sky turned a bit more teal by only adjusting contrast and saturation.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 14, 2016, 09:58:15 PM
The 3rd image, which has less contrast and saturation as compared to the 4K BD image, was sourced from L'immagine ritrovata's website. In the 2nd image, besides the green sky, even LVC's hat is greenish black.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/trailerparkboy/Sentenza-comparison_zpssxk4qqz7.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/trailerparkboy/media/Sentenza-comparison_zpssxk4qqz7.jpg.html)


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 14, 2016, 10:32:41 PM
so if I understand correctly, you're saying that your IB tech print, though it has lots of dirt and damage, would have the correct colors as Leone wanted them, assuming you were projecting it with the proper bulb etc.?


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: dave jenkins on June 14, 2016, 11:22:30 PM
so if I understand correctly, you're saying that your IB tech print, though it has lots of dirt and damage, would have the correct colors as Leone wanted them, assuming you were projecting it with the proper bulb etc.?
That's my understanding, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered going down to LA last summer to view Tarantino's IB Tech print.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 14, 2016, 11:37:30 PM
The fact that the overall image is very similar to Tarantino's IB tech print DJ and I saw screened last year I'd say it gives us a pretty solid idea of the "look" SL was going for.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 15, 2016, 03:03:05 AM
Do you know about whether your bulb/projection process is the correct one, which would display real accurate colors?


If yes: I'd appreciate if you can post a little more film from your print to your blog.

Seems to me that the image/colors is very brown/dark. Again, not sure if that is the color or the dirt.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: cigar joe on June 15, 2016, 04:15:26 AM
If this helps, I still swear that one original review back in 1967 did mention the "golden mediterranean light", look of the film in a painterly way. Not piss yellow, but "golden". I was living in New York City at the time and the reviews I read usually came from these sources, i.e., The Daily News, The New York Times, The Long Island Star, Time, Newsweek, Life, Look, The New Yorker and occasionally The Film Society Review. It had to be from one of these print sources.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 15, 2016, 04:49:46 AM
Do you know about whether your bulb/projection process is the correct one, which would display real accurate colors?


If yes: I'd appreciate if you can post a little more film from your print to your blog.

Seems to me that the image/colors is very brown/dark. Again, not sure if that is the color or the dirt.

Please don't judge the color of the print based on those clips, as I said on the blog, they are really only an approximation, I wanted to get the clips posted so I took some shortcuts. Plus they have been compressed twice (once to knock them down from 4K, and then again when Vimeo adds it's own compression) which adds some contrast etc. I will post more accurate comparisons soon.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: uncknown on June 21, 2016, 08:03:14 PM


The perfect version that I would release, of course. Italian version minus 2 scenes (Eastwood and LvC in their night camp, Wallach asking for the way to the monastery) and with the shorter torture Scene and (why not?) with that short scene at the end with Eastwood mounting his horse. And of course without the cave scene.

and the shorter US desert crossing scene!!!
bruce marshal


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: stanton on June 22, 2016, 02:59:31 AM
and the shorter US desert crossing scene!!!
bruce marshal

Nope, I like that.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Jordan Krug on August 15, 2016, 07:21:32 PM
For those that want to see a colour comparison between the scan of our U.S. 1967 prints vs the mgm 4k, here are a few images. Please note that a print from the 60's is going to have more contrast, more grain and less detail overall since it's like a photocopy of a photocopy, for the mgm 4k they went back to the negative. Contrast range and detail are going to be superior no matter what when you scan from the negative. In my opinion though, our 35mm scan wins in the color department:

http://imgur.com/a/uiBBI


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: dave jenkins on August 15, 2016, 08:35:16 PM
For those that want to see a colour comparison between the scan of our U.S. 1967 prints vs the mgm 4k, here are a few images. Please note that a print from the 60's is going to have more contrast, more grain and less detail overall since it's like a photocopy of a photocopy, for the mgm 4k they went back to the negative. Contrast range and detail are going to be superior no matter what when you scan from the negative. In my opinion though, our 35mm scan wins in the color department:

http://imgur.com/a/uiBBI
Very thank you!  O0


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Novecento on August 16, 2016, 12:43:35 PM
Thanks!

Have you guys tried to get in touch with Giancarlo Santi? It would be very interesting to hear his opinion.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Lil Brutto on August 17, 2016, 11:35:05 AM
That's actually a good idea. It didn't occur to us. The problem is...how??


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Le Bon on August 17, 2016, 02:19:06 PM
That's actually a good idea. It didn't occur to us. The problem is...how??

Maybe Peter Hanley could help.


Title: Re: UNSEEN FOOTAGE from a rare and mysterious Italian IB TECH 35MM print
Post by: Novecento on August 19, 2016, 01:02:03 PM
With relatively famous people the easiest way is through their talent agency - places like CAA and the like usually have a list of who they represent. However, Santi probably doesn't have that representation. Paradoxically that will make it harder to reach him initially but easier to reach him once you've located him. I think the best bet would be the usual chain of contacting someone who just might have an idea who will then put you in touch with someone else...