Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => Once Upon A Time In The West => Topic started by: Herry Grail on July 02, 2016, 06:40:07 PM

Title: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Herry Grail on July 02, 2016, 06:40:07 PM
I was looking to pick up one of the Frayling books to read more in depth about OUATITW. One I found online that really caught my eye was "OUATITW: Shot by Shot." The problem is, I can't figure out if it is an old book, an upcoming book, or what.

Some of the book-ordering sites say it's coming sometime in the future, but a bunch of sketchy PDF download sites say you can download a copy now for free if you sign up.

It really sounds like something I would love, but I can't find any credible information about it. Does anyone know? Thanks!
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 02, 2016, 10:02:34 PM
I never heard of this book.

I am aware of 3 books Frayling wrote on Leone: Something to Do With Death, Spaghetti Westerns, and Once Upon a Time in Italy.

If you have not yet read any of Frayling's books, here's the deal IMO: "Something to Do With Death" is the biography, that's IMO the Bible of Leone. That's the most essential one. Has a chapter on each Leone film, with full discussion of production history and discussion of themes. (In addition to discussion of Leone's life, like any other biography.) If I have one book to grab before my house burns down, that's the one.

"Spaghetti Westerns" is a study of Spaghetti Western films, (written almost  two deacdes before the biography) most prominent are Leone's films but also others spags.That book has a special chapter on Once Upon a Time in the West - the only single movie to have its own chapter in that book (there is a separate chapter on the Dollars Trilogy). This book has more technical discussion, written in somewhat of a more nerdy-academic way, the "film study" style. This book is not the easiest read.

"Once Upon a Time in Italy" is the official book that came along a Leone exhibit they had in a California museum around a decade ago. It's a big coffee-table-sized book with full color photos mostly of movie posters of Leone's films in various languages; also of the cover of soundtrack albums. Also, there are interviews in there that Frayling did with many of the important players in Leone movies. Many if not all of these interviews were already incorporated into the discussions in "Something to Do With Death," but in "Once Upon a Time in Italy" the interviews are presented in full, Q&A form.


So, there you have it. IMO, for a serious Leone fan, you should eventually get all three books. If you want to start with one, or only have money to spend on one now, I'd say "STDWD" is most important.

As Roger Ebert used to say to someone who was about to watch a great movie for the first time, "I envy the experience you are about to have."

Enjoy!  :)
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 03, 2016, 01:15:23 AM
Once Upon a Time in the West: Shot by Shot is a new book by Sir Christopher Frayling which is due for release on May 23 2017.

According to Amazon:

It has 336 pages and is the definitive book on Sergio Leone's landmark Western, Once Upon A Time In The West (1968).

An in-depth analysis and shot by shot look at this iconic film by the world's leading authority on Sergio Leone, Sir Christopher Frayling, who coined the phrase "Spaghetti Western."

Set photographer Angelo Novi was given complete access on the film and was present every day. This book features his stunning in-depth photography of every aspect of the shoot, including never-before-seen outtakes, off-screen shots and deleted scenes.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Once-Upon-Time-West-Shot/dp/1909526339 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Once-Upon-Time-West-Shot/dp/1909526339)

  

whoo hooo!

This is amazing news!

So should I lock it in now on the UK Amazon for the price guarantee? or should I wait till it probably goes to the US Amazon, then I won't have to pay shipping? (or play the game one way or the other with currency exchange rates)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Once-Upon-Time-West-Shot/dp/1909526339

just want to know if I should do the pre-order now or if there is any advantage I'd have to waiting, whether with currency exchanges or any other reason?
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: stanton on July 03, 2016, 01:30:30 AM
whoo hooo!

This is amazing news!

So should I lock it in now on the UK Amazon for the price guarantee? or should I wait till it probably goes to the US Amazon, then I won't have to pay shipping? (or play the game one way or the other with currency exchange rates)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Once-Upon-Time-West-Shot/dp/1909526339

just want to know if I should do the pre-order now or if there is any advantage I'd have to waiting, whether with currency exchanges or any other reason?

Why not steal it from a library?
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Novecento on July 03, 2016, 03:30:05 AM
Once Upon a Time in the West: Shot by Shot is a new book by Sir Christopher Frayling which is due for release on May 23 2017.

According to Amazon:

It has 336 pages and is the definitive book on Sergio Leone's landmark Western, Once Upon A Time In The West (1968).

An in-depth analysis and shot by shot look at this iconic film by the world's leading authority on Sergio Leone, Sir Christopher Frayling, who coined the phrase "Spaghetti Western."

Set photographer Angelo Novi was given complete access on the film and was present every day. This book features his stunning in-depth photography of every aspect of the shoot, including never-before-seen outtakes, off-screen shots and deleted scenes.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Once-Upon-Time-West-Shot/dp/1909526339 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Once-Upon-Time-West-Shot/dp/1909526339)

 
Wow - sounds great.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: cigar joe on July 03, 2016, 06:16:37 AM
Good news!
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Herry Grail on July 03, 2016, 08:20:47 AM
Once Upon a Time in the West: Shot by Shot is a new book by Sir Christopher Frayling which is due for release on May 23 2017.

According to Amazon:

It has 336 pages and is the definitive book on Sergio Leone's landmark Western, Once Upon A Time In The West (1968).

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Once-Upon-Time-West-Shot/dp/1909526339 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Once-Upon-Time-West-Shot/dp/1909526339)
 

Thank you...I guess that's definitive, then. The U.S. versions of Amazon and similar sites do not have it up for pre-order, nor is is teased anywhere I could find. At some point I must have seen that entry but lost track of it, as I remember some conflicting release dates. The May '17 one was farther out than others.

As for the "Download the PDF now" sites, I knew they were sketchy, but they made me think it was an old book that maybe had an upcoming re-release.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Herry Grail on July 03, 2016, 08:31:57 AM
I never heard of this book.

I am aware of 3 books Frayling wrote on Leone: Something to Do With Death, Spaghetti Westerns, and Once Upon a Time in Italy.

If you have not yet read any of Frayling's books, here's the deal IMO: "Something to Do With Death" is the biography, that's IMO the Bible of Leone. That's the most essential one. Has a chapter on each Leone film, with full discussion of production history and discussion of themes. (In addition to discussion of Leone's life, like any other biography.) If I have one book to grab before my house burns down, that's the one.

"Spaghetti Westerns" is a study of Spaghetti Western films, (written almost  two deacdes before the biography) most prominent are Leone's films but also others spags.That book has a special chapter on Once Upon a Time in the West - the only single movie to have its own chapter in that book (there is a separate chapter on the Dollars Trilogy). This book has more technical discussion, written in somewhat of a more nerdy-academic way, the "film study" style. This book is not the easiest read.

"Once Upon a Time in Italy" is the official book that came along a Leone exhibit they had in a California museum around a decade ago. It's a big coffee-table-sized book with full color photos mostly of movie posters of Leone's films in various languages; also of the cover of soundtrack albums. Also, there are interviews in there that Frayling did with many of the important players in Leone movies. Many if not all of these interviews were already incorporated into the discussions in "Something to Do With Death," but in "Once Upon a Time in Italy" the interviews are presented in full, Q&A form.


So, there you have it. IMO, for a serious Leone fan, you should eventually get all three books. If you want to start with one, or only have money to spend on one now, I'd say "STDWD" is most important.

As Roger Ebert used to say to someone who was about to watch a great movie for the first time, "I envy the experience you are about to have."

Enjoy!  :)


Thank you so much for taking all that time and effort! I'd been hunting around for clues about which to get first, especially regarding detail about OUATITW, and you've done a great job for me.

I did pick up "Once Upon A Time In Italy" at the library, and it did seem like an extended version of a commemorative magazine, since it had so many short articles, so after what you've said its unusual presentation makes sense now.

After listening to his commentaries, which are the type I like best (enthusiastic, constant, and both descriptive and informative), and his very interesting on-screen contributions, I really look forward to reading Frayling's books. I would imagine he did an entire OUATITW commentary, but a decision was made to edit it into an all-stars one. The new book will no doubt improve on the missed opportunity to include his whole commentary as a separate track.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on July 03, 2016, 09:18:07 AM
So should I lock it in now on the UK Amazon for the price guarantee? or should I wait till it probably goes to the US Amazon, then I won't have to pay shipping? (or play the game one way or the other with currency exchange rates)

Do the pre-order now (it costs nothing). If and when amazon.com offers the book, do a price comparison. If the amazon.com offer is the better of the two, cancel the UK order.

Great news about the book, though. It will help me live a little bit longer.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on July 03, 2016, 09:44:30 AM
PS: Why isn't this thread in the OUATITW section?
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Herry Grail on July 03, 2016, 09:50:33 AM
Here's the link to the Amazon.com listing, which is unreachable through its own search function (I guess until it becomes available for pre-order). There is no price listed, but Google Books shows a $75 price at Amazon, which it may have shown at one time. Both the American and UK Amazons show it releasing on the 23rd of May, but I bet that's a very fluid date this early out:
https://www.amazon.com/Once-Upon-Time-West-Photographs/dp/1909526339?ie=UTF8&

Books a Million online does quote $75, and says it's releasing May 1st (maybe all May release dates say May 1st):
http://www.booksamillion.com/product/9781909526334

Indie Bound says $75 but has the May 23rd date:
http://www.indiebound.org/book/9781909526334

The Google Books page has it showing as a June 30, 2016 release!
https://books.google.com/books/about/Once_Upon_a_Time_in_the_West.html?id=D8SMrgEACAAJ

The Reel Art Press site has nothing, but they have a "don't hesitate" contact page!
http://www.reelartpress.com/home/contact-us

I hope Frayling reads these boards...can't wait.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Herry Grail on July 03, 2016, 09:54:28 AM
PS: Why isn't this thread in the OUATITW section?

I thought it was an old book, and most of those, being non-specific, were discussed in the General Discussion section. It was kind of a Frayling question, really.

I do agree that it should be under News or OUATITW. Mods please move to the proper place  :)
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 03, 2016, 11:01:03 AM
Do the pre-order now (it costs nothing). If and when amazon.com offers the book, do a price comparison. If the amazon.com offer is the better of the two, cancel the UK order.

Great news about the book, though. It will help me live a little bit longer.

weird that the pre-sale is ten months before the book goes on sale! My credit card won't even last that long - my credit card expires at the end of 2016, my bank will send me a new one then
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: noodles_leone on July 05, 2016, 06:44:10 AM
It's a bit magical how we keep getting Sergio Leone "NEWS" in 2016. The book definitely sounds magical too.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: cigar joe on July 05, 2016, 11:35:16 AM
It's a bit magical how we keep getting Sergio Leone "NEWS" in 2016. The book definitely sounds magical too.

Sure does.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on July 05, 2016, 11:44:27 AM
Chatting with Drink last night, he suggested something that hadn't occurred to me. I assumed the title referred to the fact that Frayling is going through the film, in sequence, analyzing each separate camera set-up as he comes to it. That may in fact be what the book does, but Drink's idea is that there is a play on words going on. Given the fact that Angeli Novi's on-set photographs are being featured, each of the "shots" referred to could be those. And of course, being a film with a lot of gun-play, the title could even be referencing the discharge of firearms. It will be interesting to see what it is that finally gets published.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 05, 2016, 03:24:09 PM
Chatting with Drink last night, he suggested something that hadn't occurred to me. I assumed the title referred to the fact that Frayling is going through the film, in sequence, analyzing each separate camera set-up as he comes to it. That may in fact be what the book does, but Drink's idea is that there is a play on words going on. Given the fact that Angeli Novi's on-set photographs are being featured, each of the "shots" referred to could be those. And of course, being a film with a lot of gun-play, the title could even be referencing the discharge of firearms. It will be interesting to see what it is that finally gets published.

I actually thought that's what YOU were saying, when you mentioned "shots" and Angelo Novi, I thought you were saying that "shot" refers to "photos."  ;)

anyway, what the hell, could be many double entendres. Triple entendres?  ;)

Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 05, 2016, 03:25:05 PM
CJ, can you move this thread to the OUATITW board? i think that's where it belongs
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Herry Grail on July 05, 2016, 03:52:08 PM
CJ, can you move this thread to the OUATITW board? i think that's where it belongs

I agree. Again, sorry...I'm doing penance through my new signature line.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Novecento on July 06, 2016, 11:54:08 AM
I assumed the title referred to the fact that Frayling is going through the film, in sequence, analyzing each separate camera set-up as he comes to it. That may in fact be what the book does, but Drink's idea is that there is a play on words going on. Given the fact that Angeli Novi's on-set photographs are being featured, each of the "shots" referred to could be those.

Probably a combination of both.


And of course, being a film with a lot of gun-play, the title could even be referencing the discharge of firearms. It will be interesting to see what it is that finally gets published.

Clever title.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Herry Grail on July 06, 2016, 12:26:15 PM
I watched OUATITW again last night...there are so few films I can watch multiple times over just a few weeks. I realize "shot by shot" is a pun, but I do hope Frayling gets into the profoundly complex character motivations and actions, which a scene-by-scene analysis could really explore:

1. Why does Harmonica make an appointment with Frank rather than just seek him out?

2. What is Jill really doing when she ransacks the bedroom? Is she that craven to just be looking for money? She settles down when she finds the mementos from her wedding, but surely she wasn't that frantic just to find her dress and bouquet?

3. Why does Cheyenne question Jill about Harmonica as though they had not seen him together at the posado?

4. Why does Jill tell Cheyenne he can keep any money he finds, and then act like she's giving it all up to go "back to civilization," when just the day before she seemed so dedicated to building a life out of her new circumstances?

5. Is Harmonica's quoting of Cheyenne to Jill ("one more killing") supposed to suggest that Harmonica is slightly supernatural? Of all his actions, that's the only one (eavesdropping on that one line) that seems completely unrealistic. If not, doesn't it make him seem kind of creepy? What is the actual point of his lurking around the night before?

6. Does Harmonica rip the frills off Jill's dress to reduce her to her true nature as he knows it, so that she can be "real"? (He's been researching things, even if only an afternoon has passed, and Frank knows her history.) Or is he trying to make her look sexy to attract the bad guys outside? Or does he know she will become the water-bearing Queen Bee of a new city, and he's just getting her dressed for it?

7. Does he send her out for water to bait Frank's men, or to get her used to fetching water because he knows the purpose for Sweetwater?

8. Why does Cheyenne (who's shown holding his rifle as if prepared to use it) let Frank's men get so close to Jill rather than doing away with them before they pose such an imminent threat?

9. Does Jill approach Wobbles because she's angry and means what she says, or is she getting him to lead Harmonica to Frank? (The latter option is what I assumed upon first viewing, especially because of their conspiratorial acknowledgement of each other afterward, but only if Jill truly expects to deal with Frank herself does later plot development make sense, as discussed below.)

10. Why does Cheyenne, who has a gang, sneak onto Frank's train by himself, like Harmonica does? Why not just attack it, as they do later?

11. This is the big one for me: what does Harmonica mean when he says "there's another bastard and he's getting further away"? Presumably he wants to go save Jill, yet we find later that he and Harmonica are happy to let her "deal with" Frank without interfering, only lamenting that she'll come back "if she comes back." As Dave suggested in another thread I started, is it because the two heroes are "postmodern" in their motivations rather than traditional, and therefore content to "let Jill be Jill" because she's self-sufficient and independent, almost a peer of theirs (or a mother in Cheyenne's case)? If that's the case, was Harmonica just wanting to get back to Frank to react to the resolution rather than influence it?

12. Why is there an old railroad track buried at Sweetwater (as discovered by Cheyenne)?

13. Does Jill's affectionate behavior toward Frank simply show that she's trying to make him feel confident he has dominated her, or is there more? I'm reminded of the complexity of Capucine's motivations in "Walk on the Wild Side," which can be inferred to suggest that she's a nymphomaniac rather than a traditional 60's-movie unwilling victim of prostitution.

14. Does Harmonica turn in Cheyenne because they have a conspiracy to help Jill? I would say yes, of course, yet the later deleted sequence where Harmonica turns his gun to face Cheyenne at the Sweetwater gate could be interpreted as indicating he feared Cheyenne would be holding a grudge. Normally I wouldn't bring up this point, because their plot seems so obvious, but the gun sequence also makes me wonder why the Judas dialogue seems so unironic.

15. Why does Harmonica call her "a remarkable woman"? Because she just coordinated a "solution" with Frank, including a rape he didn't try to intervene to stop? Do Cheyenne and Harmonica see an earthiness, a "manliness" in her that they admire? Do they not care about her honor because they don't view women and sexuality like traditional Western heroes? (And why does he seem so initially perplexed when she congratulates him? He just won her property in an auction!)

16. Do Cheyenne and his gang confront and kill Morton and his henchmen (newly "acquired" from Frank) to finally avenge Frank's framing of them for the McBain massacre, or to resolutely save Jill from their threat (while Harmonica took care of Frank himself), or both? (I've read that this confrontation was a result of Cheyenne's escape, but surely this was a different train altogether from the one taking Cheyenne to Yuma.)

17. Does the eye contact that Harmonica's brother makes with each one of the members of Frank's gang imply that he was one of them? If so, it suggests a more complicated nature to Harmonica's grudge, that his quoting of names to Frank throughout the film implies that he views Frank as a betrayer of men as well as a killer of them. (Also, how do I get a piece of that arch, LOL.)

18. Actually, this last one is a movie-making question, not a character-motivation one: Does the camera linger on Harmonica at the end (and the music switch to Cheyenne's playful theme) to make us wonder if Harmonica is going to turn around? There is a moment when their path veers to the left...is that a tease, or are they just avoiding something in their way?

I'm putting all this here because they are some of my own "shot by shot" questions and thoughts. They're not criticisms...quite the opposite; they're discussion points, and proof to me that this is a brilliantly complex movie about not only the Old West but about that Ancient Race itself.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 06, 2016, 02:25:55 PM
RE: #2, she is looking for money. she doesn't find it and decides to leave. she is about to leave when Cheyenne stops her
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: stanton on July 07, 2016, 05:19:15 AM


18. Actually, this last one is a movie-making question, not a character-motivation one: Does the camera linger on Harmonica at the end (and the music switch to Cheyenne's playful theme) to make us wonder if Harmonica is going to turn around? There is a moment when their path veers to the left...is that a tease, or are they just avoiding something in their way?



He he, that's easy. It is simply the wrong score. Originally the America theme plays on, or better the piece which is a variation of this, and which is called Finale. Paramount made a stupid mistake there and never bothered to change it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y4Ml1qRGHk

The Cheyenne theme comes only later as exit music over the closing credits or over a black image.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 07, 2016, 07:09:05 AM
@Herry Grail: regarding the end music, which stanton mentioned, see the article here
http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=10564.0
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on November 17, 2016, 02:18:41 PM
amazon.co.uk is showing a release date now of 26 Sept. 2017.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: mike siegel on December 03, 2016, 03:06:48 PM
It's gonna be great. I have about 100 behind the scenes NOVI stills from WEST and they are just great...
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 03, 2016, 05:32:41 PM
I watched OUATITW again last night...there are so few films I can watch multiple times over just a few weeks. I realize "shot by shot" is a pun, but I do hope Frayling gets into the profoundly complex character motivations and actions, which a scene-by-scene analysis could really explore:

1. Why does Harmonica make an appointment with Frank rather than just seek him out?

2. What is Jill really doing when she ransacks the bedroom? Is she that craven to just be looking for money? She settles down when she finds the mementos from her wedding, but surely she wasn't that frantic just to find her dress and bouquet?

3. Why does Cheyenne question Jill about Harmonica as though they had not seen him together at the posado?

4. Why does Jill tell Cheyenne he can keep any money he finds, and then act like she's giving it all up to go "back to civilization," when just the day before she seemed so dedicated to building a life out of her new circumstances?

5. Is Harmonica's quoting of Cheyenne to Jill ("one more killing") supposed to suggest that Harmonica is slightly supernatural? Of all his actions, that's the only one (eavesdropping on that one line) that seems completely unrealistic. If not, doesn't it make him seem kind of creepy? What is the actual point of his lurking around the night before?



I'll try to answer some of your questions

IMO:

RE: #1: This is just movie stuff; no need to think too deeply into it. The movie works better, having the men waiting at the station, waiting endlessly ... because an appointment was made. Works better than Harmonica walking up to Frank and pulling a gun on him. Don't worry too much about it from a plot perspective.


RE: #2 and #4: My assumption always was that, after the funeral, when Sam advised her to leave Sweetwater and she insisted on staying, it's because she thought there was gold. She stays, and then I believe you immediately see her looking for the gold. The next morning, she realizes there is no gold there, and decides to leave. (Whether or not she would have left anyway even if she had found the gold, we can only guess.) But IMO, she stayed to look for the gold, and finding no gold, decided to leave. And that's why she told Cheyenne, if you find it it's yours, meaning, there's nothing there to find.

RE: # 3: The exact opposite is true. He is not questioning her as if he didn't meet Harmonica; He questions her because he has seen Harmonica! He sees this strange guy who is playing a Harmonica, quick on the draw, claims to have killed three men who wear Cheyenne's dusters ... he wants to know who this guy is. In a Western, anytime a strange man with a gun comes to town, all the gunslingers get suspicious. It's like in FAFDM – as in numerous other Westerns –  when The Man With No Name arrives in El Paso, he tells the little kid Ferndando: I want you to tell me if any new people come into town.

RE: #5: Harmonica's character is indeed supposed to be sort of supernatural-like. "Something to do with death." This is discussed extensively here http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=5032.0
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 03, 2016, 05:51:29 PM


6. Does Harmonica rip the frills off Jill's dress to reduce her to her true nature as he knows it, so that she can be "real"? (He's been researching things, even if only an afternoon has passed, and Frank knows her history.) Or is he trying to make her look sexy to attract the bad guys outside? Or does he know she will become the water-bearing Queen Bee of a new city, and he's just getting her dressed for it?

7. Does he send her out for water to bait Frank's men, or to get her used to fetching water because he knows the purpose for Sweetwater?

8. Why does Cheyenne (who's shown holding his rifle as if prepared to use it) let Frank's men get so close to Jill rather than doing away with them before they pose such an imminent threat?

9. Does Jill approach Wobbles because she's angry and means what she says, or is she getting him to lead Harmonica to Frank? (The latter option is what I assumed upon first viewing, especially because of their conspiratorial acknowledgement of each other afterward, but only if Jill truly expects to deal with Frank herself does later plot development make sense, as discussed below.)

10. Why does Cheyenne, who has a gang, sneak onto Frank's train by himself, like Harmonica does? Why not just attack it, as they do later?



#6 - On the DVD commentary, Frayling says that tearing the white frills off the dress is both to make her less visible to the men lurking outside and it is more practical for work out on the West; the frills are to look pretty, for a woman wearing a dress in the city. Harmonica is preparing Jill for her job as earth mother to the railroad workers.

#7 – (As with many other issues,) I don't know if there is one answer to that. It can be whatever you want it to be. I certainly think it was to bait Frank's men, but consistent with the answer to #6, you can definitely say that he is also preparing her for her new role. So it definitely makes sense to say there was a dual purpose.

#8 - Again, that's a cinematic thing; don't expect people in movies to always act as they would in real life. It's more dramatic to have Harmonica kill Frank's men at the last second ... and then we find out Cheyenne has been lurking there, too, right?
For that matter, you can also ask what Cheyenne was doing there in the first place. Has he already fallen for Jill and want to stand guard to protect her from Frank's men, whom he knows will be back to get her? Or has Cheyenne simply decided to watch for Frank's men because he wants to take revenge on Frank for setting up the evidence to implicate Cheyenne? Or is it because he thinks Harmonica may be there and he wants to find out who the hell this Harmonica guy is? Or all three?  ;)

#9 - Jill and Harmonica are definitely conspiring to get Frank. You see Harmonica following Wobbles after Jill speaks with him. It's possible that Jill also would indeed like to talk to Frank directly, but at least the main purpose of Jill's conversation with Wobbles is that she knows Wobbles will thne go speak to Frank, and Harmonica can follow him.

#10 - Perhaps at this point, Cheyenne is just trying to eavesdrop, to find out what is going on, why Frank set him up, etc. He's not necessarily interested in a major shootout of his gang vs. Frank's. And again, the movie works better this way, of Cheyenne alone here, saving the shootout for later in the movie  :)
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Cusser on December 04, 2016, 07:37:41 AM
12. Why is there an old railroad track buried at Sweetwater (as discovered by Cheyenne)?

I think he finds a marking stake, put down by McBain.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: cigar joe on December 04, 2016, 06:36:20 PM
Quote
12. Why is there an old railroad track buried at Sweetwater (as discovered by Cheyenne)?

McBain was a railroad man, (that's how he knew the trains would need water and why he picked Sweetwater for his "ranch") the route was laid out way in advance of actual construction why not get a wagon and haul a few rails and ties out and lay them in place so the station can be built around the tracks, remember he already ordered the wood, sign, etc, etc for the station, when the construction arrives they just have to connect it to what he's got laid out.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Dust Devil on December 06, 2016, 12:45:16 PM
McBain was a railroad man, (that's how he knew the trains would need water and why he picked Sweetwater for his "ranch") the route was laid out way in advance of actual construction why not get a wagon and haul a few rails and ties out and lay them in place so the station can be built around the tracks, remember he already ordered the wood, sign, etc, etc for the station, when the construction arrives they just have to connect it to what he's got laid out.

Yep. O0
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 09, 2017, 09:42:49 PM
The release date on all the websites now is September 26, 2017.

I'll do the pre-order with price guarantee. It can't hurt.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Cusser on January 10, 2017, 06:39:40 AM
McBain was a railroad man, (that's how he knew the trains would need water and why he picked Sweetwater for his "ranch") the route was laid out way in advance of actual construction why not get a wagon and haul a few rails and ties out and lay them in place so the station can be built around the tracks, remember he already ordered the wood, sign, etc, etc for the station, when the construction arrives they just have to connect it to what he's got laid out.

Surely some folks would've have noticed that McBain's supplies included some train track rails, and then there would have been no mystery what McBain was up to out there...
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: cigar joe on January 10, 2017, 03:40:48 PM
Surely some folks would've have noticed that McBain's supplies included some train track rails, and then there would have been no mystery what McBain was up to out there...

What you have to remember is that the route would have been laid out five or more years in advance.  McBain knowing of this had plenty of time purchase the Sweetwater location and to get the supplies and haul them out there well before the boomtown of Flagstone was even on the map. Rails were available at bigger towns especially in mining district areas at hardware stores for miners.

The railroad and it's route engineers knew what was going on since they gave him the contract for the station. The clueless locals probably had no idea what was going on, hence thinking he was crazy.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on January 10, 2017, 04:42:18 PM
The release date on all the websites now is September 26, 2017.
Thanks, I'll cancel my UK order and get it in the US. That means I'll have it in hand all the quicker.

Hey, Drink, did you notice this?
https://www.amazon.com/ALLHA-Womens-Low-Waist-Thongs-Panties-r-nBriefs/dp/B01ER4K95U/ref=sr_1_cc_2?

A woman can wear these and have three--er, four--men on her ass. Charming thought, no?
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 10, 2017, 05:36:13 PM
Thanks, I'll cancel my UK order and get it in the US. That means I'll have it in hand all the quicker.

Hey, Drink, did you notice this?
https://www.amazon.com/ALLHA-Womens-Low-Waist-Thongs-Panties-r-nBriefs/dp/B01ER4K95U/ref=sr_1_cc_2?

A woman can wear these and have three--er, four--men on her ass. Charming thought, no?

Haha! But they are grandma undies! And If my chick wears this, it means I am having a fivesome. In bed with With Al Mulloch :-[

Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 30, 2017, 12:17:19 AM
The price on Amazon.com is now $46.39, plus the pre-sale price guarantee

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1909526339/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on March 30, 2017, 08:46:21 AM
The price on Amazon.com is now $46.39, plus the pre-sale price guarantee

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1909526339/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
With the price so low, you should order one for a friend.  ;)
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: mike siegel on March 30, 2017, 02:10:06 PM
You bet. Three.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Le Bon on June 23, 2017, 11:15:46 AM
Release date is now May 2018  :(
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 23, 2017, 03:48:36 PM
Release date is now May 2018  :(

As Herry Grail noted on page 1 of this thread, where he shared various links where one can pre-order the book http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=12605.msg183802#msg183802 , you can't even search for the book on Amazon - nothing comes up. It only works if  you have the link.
It says the book is not available - you can't even pre-order it now. (I already did, a while ago.)

And the OUATITW grandma undies are no longer available https://www.amazon.com/ALLHA-Womens-Low-Waist-Thongs-Panties-r-nBriefs/dp/B01ER4K95U/ref=sr_1_cc_2?
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on June 24, 2017, 06:32:55 AM
And the OUATITW grandma undies are no longer available https://www.amazon.com/ALLHA-Womens-Low-Waist-Thongs-Panties-r-nBriefs/dp/B01ER4K95U/ref=sr_1_cc_2?
There goes your love life, what?
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 10, 2017, 01:12:58 AM
The pre-order link for the "Shot by Shot" book is available once again https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1909526339/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The price is $75. For people like me, who pre-ordered it previously, the price had dropped as low as $46.39. But for anyone who is ordering it now, the price is $75, plus the pre-order price guarantee. Release date is still scheduled for May 2018.

If anyone wants to contact the publishing house and ask them about it, this is their contact info:

Reel Art Press:
http://www.reelartpress.com/home/contact-us

Telephone: +44 (0)20 7580 1119

Email: info@reelartpress.com

Please direct any written enquiries to:

Reel Art Press
4 Mansfield Mews
London
W1G 9NL
UK
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Moorman on December 10, 2017, 05:01:44 PM
Man, i gotta have this book, but $75 is kinda steep.  It may go even higher.  Anyway, good to know that this book about the best western of all time is coming out...
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 10, 2017, 05:11:24 PM
Man, i gotta have this book, but $75 is kinda steep.  It may go even higher.  Anyway, good to know that this book about the best western of all time is coming out...

You can reserve it now, and the price may go down before it is released, which you’ll get with Amazon’s pre-order price guarantee. If The price does not go down, you can always cancel. They don’t charge your card until a few days before the release date.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on December 11, 2017, 01:39:46 PM
the price had dropped as low as $46.39.
That's where I locked it in at. Of course, with tax the full price is actually 50 and change, but that's a lot better than 75 plus tax. This is my reward for going to bed early these last 35 years . . .
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: cigar joe on December 11, 2017, 03:25:10 PM
That's where I locked it in at. Of course, with tax the full price is actually 50 and change, but that's a lot better than 75 plus tax. This is my reward for going to bed early these last 35 years . . .

 O0
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Le Bon on February 08, 2018, 05:14:27 AM
The book has had a change of title.  SHOOTING A MASTERPIECE. Date is pushed back again as well. I liked the Shot by Shot title but hey.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Once-Upon-Time-West-Masterpiece/dp/1909526339/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1518089834&sr=1-1&keywords=christopher+frayling+shooting
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: cigar joe on February 08, 2018, 07:16:30 AM
thanks for the heads up  O0
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Novecento on February 09, 2018, 10:32:33 AM
The book has had a change of title.  SHOOTING A MASTERPIECE. Date is pushed back again as well. I liked the Shot by Shot title but hey.

Yeh no kidding - "Shot by Shot" had a clever double-entendre that is all but lost in "Shooting a Masterpiece". I wonder what forced that change?

I also wonder how this book will compare to Fawell's "The Art of Sergio Leone's Once Upon a Time in the West"? Judging by Frayling's previous works, it will certainly be longer!
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on February 09, 2018, 11:28:35 AM
Yeh no kidding - "Shot by Shot" had a clever double-entendre that is all but lost in "Shooting a Masterpiece". I wonder what forced that change?


Some of us were initially wondering if the book was actually a shot-by-shot analysis of the film, and didn't realize that the "shot" referred to photographs. Perhaps that is why they changed the title.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on February 09, 2018, 11:29:22 AM


I also wonder how this book will compare to Fawell's "The Art of Sergio Leone's Once Upon a Time in the West"? Judging by Frayling's previous works, it will certainly be longer!

I've never read Fawell's book. Is it any good? I usually can't stand these "critical study" books on film; a bunch of nerdy stuff that takes all the joy out of watching a film. (Frayling is the one writer whose critical studies I can enjoy and who is able to do it without being nerdy and always being interesting and a great read.)

this new book on OUATITW (if it ever gets released!) is a compilation of photographs by the late stills photographer Angelo Novi. I am sure there will be some text, of course, but who knows how much ...
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Novecento on February 09, 2018, 01:49:29 PM
Some of us were initially wondering if the book was actually a shot-by-shot analysis of the film, and didn't realize that the "shot" referred to photographs. Perhaps that is why they changed the title.

That's why it was a clever title and should have been kept.

I've never read Fawell's book. Is it any good? I usually can't stand these "critical study" books on film; a bunch of nerdy stuff that takes all the joy out of watching a film. (Frayling is the one writer whose critical studies I can enjoy and who is able to do it without being nerdy and always being interesting and a great read.)

RE: this new book on OUATITW (if it ever gets released!) is a compilation of photographs by the late stills photographer Angelo Novi. I am sure there will be some text, of course, but who knows how much ...

I don't own it but browsed through a library copy once. I remember it being quite a slim volume with some interesting stuff about Leone's visual style in the latter part.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Novecento on February 09, 2018, 06:50:46 PM
Actually I guess it's a "triple entendre" then: every gun shot; scene by scene analysis; photographic stills.

They really should have kept that title.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: stanton on February 10, 2018, 02:16:56 AM
I'm not interested in photo books.

I'm probably the only one here who was disappointed by Hanley's GBU book. Too much photos, and not enough interesting text to justify the price.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Novecento on February 10, 2018, 03:32:54 AM
I like photo books when the photos are not stills from the actual film unless the still itself is being provided to demonstrate a particular comment in the text regarding composition etc. Mike's book on Peckinpah for example has some great behind-the-scenes, deleted scenes and candid shots that are great to see. It actually took me a while to source all the behind-the-scenes shots of Leone and Valerii on "Nobody" since all I kept turning up was still after still of the actual film.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Shadow on March 03, 2018, 01:55:35 PM
I was just informed by Amazon that this release has now been cancelled all together...... that’s a shame!
I wonder what the story behind all this.....

Too bad....

Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Novecento on March 03, 2018, 06:42:05 PM
There's no mention at all of the book on the website of the Angelo Novi estate either:

http://www.angelonovi.com/
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: noodles_leone on March 04, 2018, 08:13:24 AM
Weird.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Jordan Krug on April 02, 2018, 04:22:02 AM
Good news, I emailed the publisher, and received this reply:

Hi jordan - it’s not cancelled. It’s coming out in October, and now includes an extensive introduction from Quentin Tarantino.

All the best,

Rory
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on April 02, 2018, 07:41:32 AM
Curiouser and curiouser.  O0
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Novecento on April 03, 2018, 10:42:04 AM
It’s coming out in October, and now includes an extensive introduction from Quentin Tarantino.

Tying into his forthcoming "Once Upon a Time in Hollywood" I suppose
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Le Bon on July 20, 2018, 01:46:29 PM
Cover is on Amazon https://www.amazon.co.uk/Once-Upon-Time-Shooting-Masterpiece/dp/1909526339/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1532118712&sr=8-1&keywords=once+upon+a+time+in+the+west+shooting

I was going to load a picture here but the new file attachment is not working.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 20, 2018, 04:09:35 PM
Cover is on Amazon https://www.amazon.co.uk/Once-Upon-Time-Shooting-Masterpiece/dp/1909526339/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1532118712&sr=8-1&keywords=once+upon+a+time+in+the+west+shooting

I was going to load a picture here but the new file attachment is not working.

!!!!!!

And some photos are available on that Amazon page, too! Release date says October 15, 2018. Now that there is a cover, I do believe that the release date may be accurate. Only question is why Frayling would choose a cover for this book that is so similar – or perhaps identical - to the cover of his biography of Leone, “Something to do with Death”
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: cigar joe on July 21, 2018, 03:52:52 AM
cool.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on July 21, 2018, 08:47:37 AM
Only question is why Frayling would choose a cover for this book that is so similar – or perhaps identical - to the cover of his biography of Leone, “Something to do with Death”
Authors don't choose cover illustrations/photos/designs--that's strictly the province of the publisher. And the publisher goes with what he/she/it thinks will help sell a book.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Jordan Krug on July 30, 2018, 03:05:18 PM
Yeah for a book that promises vast quantities of unseen photos, kinda funny that they use an image we've all seen a million times before...
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: stanton on July 31, 2018, 02:49:40 AM
Authors don't choose cover illustrations/photos/designs--that's strictly the province of the publisher. And the publisher goes with what he/she/it thinks will help sell a book.

Are you sure that someone like Frayling doesn't care how the cover looks?
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on July 31, 2018, 06:29:51 AM
Sure he does. He just has no say in the matter.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Novecento on August 01, 2018, 11:00:59 AM
Yeah for a book that promises vast quantities of unseen photos, kinda funny that they use an image we've all seen a million times before...

It's a great image, but I couldn't agree more in that regard.

Sure he does. He just has no say in the matter.

That's not necessarily the case, although he can be forced to adopt a title and image he doesn't like if there is an impasse.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Le Bon on August 01, 2018, 11:07:54 AM
Yeah for a book that promises vast quantities of unseen photos, kinda funny that they use an image we've all seen a million times before...

And very similar to the book by John Fawell, The Art of Sergio Leone's OUATITW. Same colour and Image.

There's a great still on the Amazon page that shows cast and crew during a break from the Cattle Corner Station scene.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: mike siegel on August 01, 2018, 04:59:17 PM
Interesting, that people here really KNOW what each author in the world can do and
what he can't do :).  Where is all that mysterious universal knowledge coming from...

Anyway, as far as I know, from fellow writers as well,
you have your little input :).
I myself chose both front cover images for my books.
In the case of McQueen I had to fight, because the publisher didn't
want a photo depicting Steve smoking. Funny Americans :).
Well I won that little battle and I am really happy about the cover - King of cool nevertheless :).
(me and my buddy Fabian even designed the title on the chair...)

(http://up.picr.de/33440845xx.jpg)
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Novecento on August 01, 2018, 09:30:58 PM
Interesting, that people here really KNOW what each author in the world can do and
what he can't do :).  Where is all that mysterious universal knowledge coming from...

My experience (very niche even for academia and certainly not mass-market) has been a certain degree of input within the guidelines of the series within which it was being published.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Leonardo on August 08, 2018, 06:54:07 AM
Since I can't wait to get the Angelo Novi / Frayling book, I stumbled upon this book on Amazon and I bought it on impulse:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/SERGIO-LEONE-BACKSTAGE-GENIUS-PHOTOGRAPHY/dp/8890895519/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1533735224&sr=8-3&keywords=jarach

I just got it today and it was a disappointment. 100 pages and about 80 black & white photos taken on the OUTITW set, mostly of Claudia Cardinale. This is of course OK, as she is really stunningly beautiful, but I was expecting more photos of the other actors and of Leone himself. The book is in Italian and English, with a bio by the author and an interview with Terence Hill. Each photo comes with a short and totally useless caption, poorly translated into English ("Claudia kisses her horse, like her own son" or "Jason has accompanied Claudia to her caravan. She can finally take a shower to get away the sweat and the dust" or even "She was so beautiful that made to fall in love the whole troupe").
The author claims that he went to Almeria to see and take photos of a genius at work, but in reality it's a series of fashion shots of Claudia Cardinale.
Very disappointing. Now I'll wait even more eagerly for the Novi/Frayling book.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Paulo on August 10, 2018, 07:05:59 AM
A bit more information here:   https://www.reelartpress.com/catalog/edition/118/once-upon-a-time-in-the-west
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Le Bon on September 04, 2018, 03:00:02 PM
Price on Amazon.co.uk down to £32.50 from £44.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on September 04, 2018, 05:34:32 PM
wow, that's less than 42 bucks U.S. (before taking off the VAT).

UPDATE: Oops, I guess they don't automatically include VAT anymore in their prices. Still, with shipping costs, the total price for a U.S. buyer is less than $52, a lot cheaper than what amazon.com is asking.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Le Bon on October 16, 2018, 04:07:42 AM
This was due out yesterday according to Amazon. It says temporarily out of stock. I looked on the reel art press website and that said Nov. There was a phone number so I decided to give them a quick call. They said it will now be out March/April. Jeez!!
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 16, 2018, 10:40:00 AM
Amazon.com page is showing me that the book is due out in a week - October 23, 2018.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on October 17, 2018, 07:31:43 AM
The UK release date was for 15 October. Amazon.co.uk is now listing it as out of stock--code for they never got it in. I don't doubt that next week's stateside release date will go unmet. I'm sure Le Bon's info is (unhappily) reliable . . .
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: noodles_leone on October 17, 2018, 07:33:06 AM
The UK release date was for 15 October. Amazon.co.uk is now listing it as out of stock--code for they never got it in. I don't doubt that next week's stateside release date will go unmet. I'm sure Le Bon's info is (unhappily) reliable . . .

I’le try to get the info from Frayling Himself.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on October 24, 2018, 04:47:43 AM
Just got a message from amazon.com confirming the delay of the book. I'm not sure what the new release date is supposed to be--I don't think amazon knows.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Le Bon on October 24, 2018, 05:41:08 AM
Now confirmed on publishers website as Apr  2019 as they told me a few days ago.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 24, 2018, 11:07:42 AM
Just got a message from amazon.com confirming the delay of the book. I'm not sure what the new release date is supposed to be--I don't think amazon knows.

yeah, Amazon is requiring us pre-salers to go on and confirm that we still want it. I confirmed.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on October 24, 2018, 11:38:20 AM
Yes, you need to do it too keep your locked-in price. Otherwise they cancel your order and when you re-order you'll have to pay the $75 price.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 28, 2018, 10:44:09 AM
Amazon sent me an email; they say that the delivery estimate is December 17, 2018 - February 5, 2019.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on October 28, 2018, 02:22:40 PM
Do. Not. Believe them.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 28, 2018, 08:54:57 PM
Do. Not. Believe them.

We do know one thing: It won’t be available before then :)
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Le Bon on October 31, 2018, 10:55:46 AM
On Amazon UK it now has March 19 and price up again to £50.  My pre order was £32.50 then it went up to £44 last week. Not had any emails from Amazon myself.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Jordan Krug on October 31, 2018, 07:26:43 PM
It's gotta be some sort of rights issue over the photos or something like that. It seems like the book would have had to have been completed a while back for them to meet their much earlier publishing dates. But this is pure speculation on my part. Oh well, if we can wait as long as we did for the amazing gbu book, we can wait a bit longer for this one.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: stanton on November 01, 2018, 02:37:48 AM
For me the GBU book was not worth the high price.

I won't buy this one for such a high price, unless I think it is really something special. Well I thought that about the GBU book also ...
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Jordan Krug on November 01, 2018, 04:51:57 PM
For me the GBU book was not worth the high price.

I won't buy this one for such a high price, unless I think it is really something special. Well I thought that about the GBU book also ...

Well I think in the authors defense he did most of the work himself, most likely financing a good chunk of it... For such a "niche" market I thought the price was fair. Nothing about the book felt "cheap" in terms of the photo quality etc...but I can see the argument that it was more expensive than other books of the same type... However those are mostly bigger publishers with bigger print runs.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: stanton on November 02, 2018, 01:50:41 AM
The problem is less the price, but that the book had not enough substance. There was too much uninteresting stuff in it.

But I have to admit I'm not interested in all these photos. I prefer books with some well chosen photos to aerate the text, but is is the quality of the content which makes a book worthwhile.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: noodles_leone on November 02, 2018, 03:16:58 AM
STANTON FTW!
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: stanton on November 02, 2018, 05:04:13 AM
STANTON FTW!

Uhhhh ... ? ? ?

What was this? I don't remember

Fuck the Win? 

Fuck that What?

Let's assume the first one ...
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on November 02, 2018, 05:47:46 AM
You've got to be kidding . . . The photos ARE the content. Movies are a visual medium, and are best treated with reference to images. And we're also talking about the greatest film ever made. Photos are good. If you want text, write it yourself.

My only complaint about the edition was that it was TOO CHEAP. I would have rather it cost something like $500. That would have put it out of reach for philistines like stanton. It burns me up that there is a copy of this fine book out there that the unclean hands of stanton have profaned . . . .
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: mike siegel on November 02, 2018, 10:40:06 AM
That book was a dream come true. So much had already been written about the film, for over 50 years...
A visual reference to the making of ( any great classic) film is the closest one can come towards these great people :).
(especially since none of that Super 8 footage people took on the sets in the 60s is surfacing...)
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: noodles_leone on November 02, 2018, 10:48:54 AM
Uhhhh ... ? ? ?

What was this? I don't remember

Fuck the Win? 

Fuck that What?

Letr's assume the first one ...

I could explain it again... but I'm starting to like the ambiguity.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Le Bon on November 02, 2018, 04:20:00 PM
The book was incredible. I would have paid double the price.  As Dave said, the photos are the content. Its a visual treasure.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Lil Brutto on November 02, 2018, 06:45:45 PM
The book is great and I feel I got excellent value for my dollar.

I wonder if Peter Hanley (Clinton) or his contacts can shed some light on the multiple Italian versions of the film?

There are 2 Italian IB Tech prints in our possession that demonstrate that the "Skeleton Shot", full Tuco torture scene and "Sorry, Tuco" (as well as a few other snippets and one musical cue difference) were included in presumably the original theatrical release, which preceded the "Italian cut" that is available on various home releases. We recently acquired a print of the "Italian cut" that does not include the Skeleton Shot and other snippets so we know for certain that at least 2 versions were released theatrically in Italy.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Le Bon on January 06, 2019, 01:57:51 PM
There seems to have been a shift in focus of this book which could explain the delays. It is now said to include interviews with personnel in front of and behind the camera,  rare documents, designs and photos whereas before it only mentioned Angelo Novi's photos.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Jordan Krug on April 08, 2019, 04:31:53 PM
Got the book today. Pretty much everything we could have hoped for - a real treasure for those who love the film. Can't wait to dig in properly. It's huge and filled with pics and interviews.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: stanton on April 09, 2019, 03:47:36 AM
And?
Do we get any definitive information about the Italian release version? And about the origins of that 178 min version, if it is not the release version?
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Jordan Krug on April 09, 2019, 03:57:32 AM
And?
Do we get any definitive information about the Italian release version? And about the origins of that 178 min version, if it is not the release version?

I'll definitely let you know, still digging in. There are some new stills from the deleted scenes which is nice to see.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on April 09, 2019, 09:53:00 AM
Got the book today. Pretty much everything we could have hoped for - a real treasure for those who love the film. Can't wait to dig in properly. It's huge and filled with pics and interviews.
You got your copy early how exactly?
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: cigar joe on April 09, 2019, 12:31:08 PM
Got the book today. Pretty much everything we could have hoped for - a real treasure for those who love the film. Can't wait to dig in properly. It's huge and filled with pics and interviews.

Thanks for the info will be looking for more of your findings when you do dig in.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Le Bon on April 09, 2019, 01:39:12 PM
You got your copy early how exactly?

Was wondering that myself.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Jordan Krug on April 09, 2019, 02:44:14 PM
I just ordered from Amazon.ca, it was a third party seller who said he had 2 copies...it wasn't due to arrive for a couple weeks but it just showed up :) looks like it's being sold from a different third party seller now.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on April 10, 2019, 09:33:25 AM
Thanks. I'll take a chance.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 14, 2019, 04:41:42 PM
I just got this email from Amazon:


We now have delivery date(s) for the order you placed on January 09, 2017:
   
  Frayling, Christopher "Once Upon a Time in the West: Shooting a Masterpiece"
    Estimated arrival date: May 27, 2019 - May 31, 2019


Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on April 15, 2019, 07:21:31 AM
amazon.co.uk claim to be shipping a month earlier. I tried the third-party seller at amazon.ca mentioned above and my book has already shipped (from the UK). We'll see how things go.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 15, 2019, 10:52:11 AM
amazon.co.uk claim to be shipping a month earlier. I tried the third-party seller at amazon.ca mentioned above and my book has already shipped (from the UK). We'll see how things go.

How much did it cost?

Please share the link for that seller. If you get it quickly, maybe I will just use that seller also and cancel my Amazon order, unless that seller is charging a lot more.

Thanks
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on April 15, 2019, 12:55:24 PM
How much did it cost?

Please share the link for that seller. If you get it quickly, maybe I will just use that seller also and cancel my Amazon order, unless that seller is charging a lot more.

Thanks
I think with shipping it was about $55 US. The seller I used was Ria Christie but there are several people offering it here: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/offer-listing/1909526339/ref=sr_1_fkmrnull_1_olp?keywords=once+upon+a+time+in+the+west+shooting+a+masterpiece&qid=1555357857&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmrnull
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: stanton on April 17, 2019, 03:42:56 AM
I'll definitely let you know, still digging in.

Aaand?
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Le Bon on April 18, 2019, 11:43:48 AM
My copy arrived today a few days early. As Jordan said it looks great. I can't see anything yet about  the Italian release running time but have only skimmed through it quickly. It has costume test stills , costume and set designs and contact sheets.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: mike siegel on April 18, 2019, 02:35:58 PM
I ordered mine at Amazon UK few days ago and it was shipped immediately.
About 40 pounds to Germany ($50.-), that's great (46 Euro - Amazon German asks for 60 Euro!).

Good year for 1969 classics :). We're just about to finish our 100+ page
Cinema Retro special issue on WILD BUNCH and I also work on a big 50th anniversary
book on another '69 classic.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: cigar joe on April 18, 2019, 06:46:28 PM
I ordered mine at Amazon UK few days ago and it was shipped immediately.
About 40 pounds to Germany ($50.-), that's great (46 Euro - Amazon German asks for 60 Euro!).

Good year for 1969 classics :). We're just about to finish out 100+ page
Cinema Retro special issue on WILD BUNCH and I also work on a big 50th anniversary
book on another '69 classic.

nice
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Jordan Krug on April 18, 2019, 08:31:22 PM
Aaand?

Nope, nothing on the long Italian release although the book does note the shot of Harmonica rising from the platform is a deleted scene and was not in the original Italian release. Lots of great stuff in this book! Can't wait to scan the contact sheets to have a better look.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Jordan Krug on April 18, 2019, 08:33:06 PM
I ordered mine at Amazon UK few days ago and it was shipped immediately.
About 40 pounds to Germany ($50.-), that's great (46 Euro - Amazon German asks for 60 Euro!).

Good year for 1969 classics :). We're just about to finish out 100+ page
Cinema Retro special issue on WILD BUNCH and I also work on a big 50th anniversary
book on another '69 classic.

Whoa that is great news, very excited to see the wild bunch issue and probably the "secret" book too :)
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Le Bon on April 19, 2019, 01:39:58 AM
I forget now. Is the CVC release the only one that has the 175 min version?
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Cusser on April 19, 2019, 04:02:50 AM
Nope, nothing on the long Italian release although the book does note the shot of Harmonica rising from the platform is a deleted scene and was not in the original Italian release. Lots of great stuff in this book! Can't wait to scan the contact sheets to have a better look.

I like that scene because it shows how Harmonica had his gun in the satchel, why he was able to shoot the 3 top-notch killers.

But agree that the scene was NOT in the original 1969 version that I saw in the theater first run.  By the way (and I've mentioned this before), in Phoenix this film never was screened at any of the big theaters at all; we were waiting for its release, saw it at a theater with about 60 seats.  A year later a version where Cheyenne did not die was shown at a drive-in.  Neither had the line "but sons of bitches - yeah" by Harmonica at the land auction.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: mike siegel on April 19, 2019, 12:52:52 PM
I can further recommend ordering through Amazon UK,
they refunded me 0,02 pounds due to "pre-order savings" !!!!
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on April 23, 2019, 12:40:28 PM
IN DA HOUSE!

And wow . . . (heavy) . . .
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on April 24, 2019, 06:11:12 AM
There seems to have been a shift in focus of this book which could explain the delays. It is now said to include interviews with personnel in front of and behind the camera,  rare documents, designs and photos whereas before it only mentioned Angelo Novi's photos.
So the book is a combination of text and photos and illustrations (lots of poster art). The photos are very nice. The text, though, leaves something to be desired. QT's intro is interesting--he spends most of it avoiding the subject. In fact, this sounds like QT didn't actually write this, he spoke off the top of his head and someone recorded/ transcribed it. OUATITW is thus a jumping off point for an almost stream-of-consciousness routine where each thought inspires him to head for the nearest tangent. This is not all bad, though--it turns out he'd rather talk about GBU (his "favorite film"), and he actually has some interesting things to say there. Anyway, it's entertaining.

Frayling's essay seems like a distillation of his chapter on West in STDWD. I didn't read through it, but at the points I dipped in it seemed to contain mostly production history and a bit about the film's reception.

The bulk of the text is given over to interviews that Frayling has conducted over the years and other pieces where the participants speak about the film. Many of these have, I'm guessing, appeared elsewhere before, but perhaps some are here for the first time in English. There are some bits that are transcriptions from the film Once Upon a Time: Sergio Leone. There's a new 2018 interview with Santi--that seems to be the only recent one.

Then there is a "Tributes" section by filmmakers saying nice things about Leone. Lots of bromides; little that is concrete.

There's a list of all the "quotations" from other Westerns--most of these are ridiculous.

There is a production chronology that gives a day-by-day summary of the 3 shoots (Rome, Spain, U.S.).

There is a section with stills from scenes that didn't make it into the film (the foot rubbing scene, etc.)

There is a detailed look at the film's final sequence (I haven't read through that yet).

There's a lot of other stuff (Carlo Simi's production sketches, etc.). It's quite a big book. Maybe we didn't need quite so many examples from Frayling's poster collection. He has the Italian posters for a lot of AWs and he's anxious to show them to us.

On balance I'd say the photos and illustrations are very much worth having, but the text isn't all that. It doesn't hurt to have it, I suppose, but the added weight will work on the binding over time and I'm worried that the spine will work its way free of the cover sooner or later (probably sooner). At around $50, though, it's still pretty good value for money.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: mike siegel on April 24, 2019, 01:06:12 PM
Got mine today...

Of course I like it, in my world, all my favorite films should have their "own" volume :).

Yet, I certainly would have done it differently. I can't comment on the text, I doubt
I'll find the time before summer thanks to all the "50th anniversary" projects....
First, I don't fancy the matte paperstock at all. Glossy or semi-glossy paper
would make it look much better. Then again - personal taste. I'm sure many will like it anyway...

I'm all for visuals, I certainly would have included as many rare images as possible - there are
so many superb behind the scenes - stills out there... unfortunately not as many in the book
as I had hoped for. Regarding that I prefer the GBU book by far. And it was not
a matter of space, but rather design / layout - decisions (for instance 15%, about 35 pages,
depict not OUATITW but other films, like - nice - Italian posters of US westerns, Tarantino scene stills
or what have you.) The reproduction of 35mm contact sheets I never liked in any publication,
it's merely a "gag", one can't really see much on them. But if they had been available, one could have
scanned them perfectly for half-page presentation without any problems at all - great "yet unseen" images
sort of "wasted".

So far my "issues" with the book, besides that I love it of course. One can't be a true Leone - fan
and not like full volumes on his films !! The price is OK, so everybody should have it - I think.
If people like us don't buy them - who else were they made for ??
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on April 25, 2019, 04:06:19 AM
Yet, I certainly would have done it differently. I can't comment on the text, I doubt
I'll find the time before summer thanks to all the "50th anniversary" projects....
First, I don't fancy the matte paperstock at all. Glossy or semi-glossy paper
would make it look much better.
You mean . . . like the way you did it in your Steve McQueen book? Huh, it's funny that Sir Chris would go with a cheapjack publisher like this. And after you had already shown him how to do it, too. But maybe this way the profit margin is better.

I agree, though . . . the GBU book is better made.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: mike siegel on April 25, 2019, 06:24:36 AM
You mean . . . like the way you did it in your Steve McQueen book? Huh, it's funny that Sir Chris would go with a cheapjack publisher like this. And after you had already shown him how to do it, too. But maybe this way the profit margin is better.

I agree, though . . . the GBU book is better made.

 ;D ;D
I have to admit I'm very proud of the Steve-book, it's great if you do something exactly the way want to, 'being a control freak...
75% of text was written by the co-author of course, but each page was lay-outet by me, all of the visuals are my choices...
So I can't blame anybody and I can also live with critisism...

Anyway, I wasn't thinking of it, regarding the OUATITW book... covering one single film on 330 pages is less complicated
than finding the right balance for 26 films on 600 pages. In the end you approach all projects with your personal taste,
I'm sure I'll ask him in the future whether he is 100% satisfied with the final product.
In August our WILD BUNCH special issue will be out, 112 pages... I'm happy we did it - but I have about 2000 stills
on WILD BUNCH, can you imagine what my book on the film would look like  ;D. I'd love to do it just for the sake
of having my own copy  :).
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Le Bon on April 25, 2019, 08:44:11 AM
I agree with most of Mike's points. Would look better on gloss paper, more WEST stills and less US western posters. I take the point about contact sheets but I think in this case it works with the day by day shooting theme. More of the images on them could have been shown larger as well. Don't usually like double page spreads but the ones here are chosen well and nothing vital is lost in the centre as often the case.
I think the GBU book set the bar so high that is difficult to match it. Overall it is a great book. Years ago we would dream of having a book on just one of the films.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on April 25, 2019, 08:51:06 AM
In August our WILD BUNCH special issue will be out, 112 pages... I'm happy we did it - but I have about 2000 stills
on WILD BUNCH, can you imagine what my book on the film would look like  ;D. I'd love to do it just for the sake
of having my own copy  :).
The Cinema Retro special edition of THE WILD BUNCH . . . how can we get copies? Amazon doesn't sell it and you can't get it in book stores.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: mike siegel on April 25, 2019, 10:57:04 AM
Through the website... (or Ebay.com !)

But it's not listed yet...

https://cinemaretro.com/index.php?/archives/4612-CINEMA-RETRO-DOLLARS-MOVIE-CLASSIC-EDITION-NOW-SHIPPING-IN-THE-UK-AND-EUROPE.html
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 25, 2019, 02:28:18 PM
Cinema Retro already had a Dollars Trilogy special edition. How about a Once Upon a Time “trilogy” edition?
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: mike siegel on April 25, 2019, 02:32:00 PM
Oh, that would be something!
Great idea! (not my shop, but I'll suggest it for sure!!)

(The $$ issue was a given, CR readers might have guessed over the years that Dave & Lee Pfeiffer
are HUGE Eastwood fans :). Four special issues on him so far!)
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: stanton on April 26, 2019, 03:19:36 AM
One can't be a true Leone - fan
and not like full volumes on his films !!

Well I am.

After reading what I read here I won't buy it for now. Maybe later, maybe never. Less a matter of money, but a matter of time.

It does not look that interesting for one who is not that much interested in stills, posters etc. And there are so many other more interesting books I don't find the time for either at the moment.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: mike siegel on April 26, 2019, 04:46:23 AM
Well each has his own personal dilemma's :).

I work often 60 hrs a week - but without great books
my life would be emptier...

We complain on a hight level, books like these were
inconceivably 30,40 years ago... looks like I'll do one
myself now (as part of a team), 'guess I'll sign a contract
next week. A BIGGIE  :)
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: stanton on April 26, 2019, 05:01:35 AM
I worked in the past years more than 60, but now I change that a little bit. And in my age I'm now in the evening often more exhausted than I was before. Also I'm in recent years less interested to read about films than I was when I was younger.

But still there are so many films I would like to watch or re-watch, and comics, music, even novels etc . Well, and the time with my girlfriend. There's not so much time left in a week. Certainly much less then 25 years ago.

I could live without working, I have enough interests, and maybe I should do this already now. I could afford it funnily.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: mike siegel on April 26, 2019, 05:15:40 AM
How old are you ???
68 ?

(Well, I don't wanna sound like I'm ALWAYS working 60 a week - life is too short for that. But certainly
in the winter - in the summer I cut it down dramatically, for obvious reasons...  ;D)
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on April 26, 2019, 06:07:31 AM
... looks like I'll do one
myself now (as part of a team), 'guess I'll sign a contract
next week. A BIGGIE  :)
Let us know about it when you can.

Hey, the new Melville stateside releases have been announced and your commentary for Leon Morin is one of the details. Congrats! I hope you did a good job or I'll be disappointed when I pick it up.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: mike siegel on April 26, 2019, 06:19:19 AM
Let me know your honest opinion  >:D  (LEON MORIN)
That was my 21st audio-commentary AND the hardest one...
I used the opportunity to study Melvielle for 10 days around the clock, most
satisfying, but also very depressing  :D.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: stanton on April 26, 2019, 09:17:04 AM
How old are you ???
68 ?


Ha ha, no, certainly not.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Novecento on April 27, 2019, 04:46:08 AM
I'm all for visuals, I certainly would have included as many rare images as possible - there are
so many superb behind the scenes - stills out there... unfortunately not as many in the book
as I had hoped for.

Yes - that's what this kind of book should be all about

I have to admit I'm very proud of the Steve-book

I've been meaning to buy that for a while. I loved your Peckinpah book and I can't even understand most of the text without a serious amount of effort.

The Cinema Retro special edition of THE WILD BUNCH . . . how can we get copies? Amazon doesn't sell it and you can't get it in book stores.

That sounds great. Barnes & Noble don't carry CR anymore? I know a lot of their stores have been closing though.

After reading what I read here I won't buy it for now. Maybe later, maybe never. Less a matter of money, but a matter of time.

I'm sure I'll get it in the end - along with Mike's Steve McQueen book. It's a matter of both time and money for me. My three young kids take up all of that up and more (not that I'm complaining of course)
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: mike siegel on April 27, 2019, 09:04:58 AM
Yes, in the WEST book there are about 60 behind the scenes stills,
in the GBU book more than 250! Plus more - superb -photos in general,
Peter really filled his 400+ pages very well !
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Le Bon on May 03, 2019, 02:24:38 PM
There were a couple of great bts photos that didn't make the final book. One was on the Amazon.co.uk page and one on the Publishers website. One was of cast and crew between takes at Cattle Corner station and the other one was of Fonda standing on the train reading a newspaper.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 24, 2019, 03:28:08 PM
OUATITW book in da house!  :)
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on May 26, 2019, 02:44:18 PM
OUATITW book in da house!  :)
And . . . ?
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 26, 2019, 04:49:29 PM
And . . . ?


I just read Tarantino’s “foreword” (really a loooong stream-of-consciousness interview), and am now in middle of Frayling’s long introduction.

This is a coffee-table book, both in style and substance. I understand that people looking for a full-length book of text on the film may be unhappy. This is a book with some good text and lots of photos. That’s what coffee table books are. I am happy with it  :) :) :) :) :)

Btw, he mentions that Angelo Novi’s pics are in an Italian film archive ... I wonder if the archive is posted online, if we can view the entire thing.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: The Peacemaker on May 31, 2019, 05:59:12 AM
I just received my copy of this and am blown away! When you first skim through it, I suggest ignoring the text and absorbing all the wonderful imagery first.  There are some amazing behind the scenes photos including costume tests and character/set designs that I found particularly interesting (though I agree with Le Bon that they left some awesome stills out of the book, the ones he described I've seen too and can be viewed here: https://ascmag.com/articles/shooting-once-upon-a-time-in-the-west (https://ascmag.com/articles/shooting-once-upon-a-time-in-the-west)  ).

A few additional bits that I found fascinating are the original story treatment registered with the Italian Film Ministry (including an alternate film title I've never heard of before, l won't ruin the surprise), production schedule, and some extra photos of deleted scenes. The last item confirms a long time suspicion that I and other Leone-philes have long held that there was a brief scene in which Frank and Cheyenne actually encounter one another on the streets of Flagstone before the latter is escorted to the Yuma train. That's a scene I truly wish never fell to the cutting room floor!

Overall, I believe it's worth every penny as it delivered on my "coffee-table book" expectations.   
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: mike siegel on May 31, 2019, 12:38:12 PM



Btw, he mentions that Angelo Novi’s pics are in an Italian film archive ... I wonder if the archive is posted online, if we can view the entire thing.

Yes it is. Or at least it was - I'll check, I once downloaded hundreds of thumbnails as reference
for my own archive. The book is fine for those who don't know or don't really care, but if you see
the hundreds on-the-set (and altogether thousands) available stills, many spectacular, you feel a bit sad that
just 60 made it into the book. A lost opportunity.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 31, 2019, 01:05:58 PM
Yes it is. Or at least it was - I'll check, I once downloaded hundreds of thumbnails as reference
for my own archive. The book is fine for those who don't know or don't really care, but if you see
the hundreds on-the-set (and altogether thousands) available stills, many spectacular, you feel a bit sad that
just 60 made it into the book. A lost opportunity.

Can you check if there is a link? I presume it would not be in English? Thanks
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 31, 2019, 01:07:10 PM
Yes it is. Or at least it was - I'll check, I once downloaded hundreds of thumbnails as reference
for my own archive. The book is fine for those who don't know or don't really care, but if you see
the hundreds on-the-set (and altogether thousands) available stills, many spectacular, you feel a bit sad that
just 60 made it into the book. A lost opportunity.

 I guess that people who want tons of pictures and people who want tons of text are both unhappy. This book seems to be somewhere in the middle?

I am thrilled with it  :)
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Jordan Krug on May 31, 2019, 02:11:21 PM
Can you check if there is a link? I presume it would not be in English? Thanks

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=10590.0
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: uncknown on January 21, 2020, 08:47:50 PM
SPAGHETTI WESTERNS was based on Frayling's doctorate.
It is pure academese.
If you want an intellectual discussion of OUTW, this is the book for you.
STSWD has tons of info on the film.
Between the 2 books above you learn almost all there is to know about this film

The new book is accurately described by our members.
You won't learn alot of new info, but but it's a visual feast.
Bruce Marshall
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Cusser on January 23, 2020, 06:45:54 AM
I ordered "OUATITW: Shooting a Masterpiece" by Frayling yesterday.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Cusser on February 19, 2020, 06:23:00 AM
I ordered "OUATITW: Shooting a Masterpiece" by Frayling yesterday.

So far - and I'm still not through the Foreword - very good.  And the book is HUGE !!!
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Cusser on April 01, 2020, 06:07:37 AM
So far - and I'm still not through the Foreword - very good.  And the book is HUGE !!!

I'm half-way through this right now; absolutely worth it !!!
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Cusser on April 07, 2020, 08:27:40 AM
I'd say this book is a must-have, finished it.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Cusser on May 12, 2020, 04:55:30 PM
I'd say this book is a must-have, finished it.

OK, still at stay-at-home, so it was time to view the film again (special edition DVD, 2-disc).  This was likely about the 20th time I've seen the entire film since I saw it first run in theater back in 1969.  I also saw this in the theater in 1985 and 1986.  Beautifully filmed movie, for sure.

I do have a question about the scene of Jill arriving in Flagstone though.  The two black porters follow her and carry her luggage to the bench on the outside of the station, Jill sees the clock on the station read 7:55.  Time passes and the trackside is now deserted; Jill looks at her watch which now reads 10:10 and her luggage is back at trainside where she stepped off, and the two black porters again follow her with the luggage past the same bench and through the station into Flagstone proper. 

So why would her luggage be carried back to trackside?  Is this just a mistake in continuity?
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on May 13, 2020, 10:34:27 AM


I do have a question about the scene of Jill arriving in Flagstone though.  The two black porters follow her and carry her luggage to the bench on the outside of the station, Jill sees the clock on the station read 7:55.  Time passes and the trackside is now deserted; Jill looks at her watch which now reads 10:10 and her luggage is back at trainside where she stepped off, and the two black porters again follow her with the luggage past the same bench and through the station into Flagstone proper. 

So why would her luggage be carried back to trackside?  Is this just a mistake in continuity?
Not a mistake in continuity. The porters are being good porters and are moving the bags every time CC decides to move. She is fidgeting and aimless for 2 hrs. waiting in vain, so she keeps shifting position. When the time jump occurs, there is also a jump in space. Before the jump she is standing before the station clock; after the jump she is back next to the train. Naturally her luggage is with her, ready for the porters to move it yet again (I guess they're expecting a really good tip). Who knows how many times the bags have been moved in those intervening two hours? Happily, at 10:10 Claudia becomes decisive and moves for the last time. The porters will now be able to quit and go home.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Cusser on May 14, 2020, 06:03:18 AM
OK.

Also wondering if none of the guards (dead, unseen) had a key to Cheyenne's handcuffs...

Also wondering why a steam train would need to load up on water within 20 miles west or so of Flagstone, at Sweetwater...instead of loading up at Flagstone...
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on May 14, 2020, 07:12:06 AM
Also wondering why a steam train would need to load up on water within 20 miles west or so of Flagstone, at Sweetwater...instead of loading up at Flagstone...
The water at Flagstone is just the usual stuff but the water at Sweetwater is  . . . sweet! Them steam engines won't roll without a bit of dessert after their meal . . . .

OK, just arsing around. Maybe there's a long stretch after Sweetwater before the can get to water again and the engines need every drop they can carry to cross it. So, even though they may load up at Flagstone, they may have to top off the tank before crossing the desert.

Yeah, that answer doesn't satisfy me either. Oh well.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: noodles_leone on May 14, 2020, 07:41:44 AM
The water at Flagstone is just the usual stuff but the water at Sweetwater is  . . . sweet! Them steam engines won't roll without a bit of dessert after their meal . . . .

OK, just arsing around. Maybe there's a long stretch after Sweetwater before the can get to water again and the engines need every drop they can carry to cross it. So, even though they may load up at Flagstone, they may have to top off the tank before crossing the desert.

Yeah, that answer doesn't satisfy me either. Oh well.

Just drive through monument valley in July and you?ll see that every man, animal and vehicule in your party will happilywelcome the idea of any kind of water, sweet or not sweet.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: cigar joe on May 14, 2020, 07:42:19 AM
The water at Flagstone is just the usual stuff but the water at Sweetwater is  . . . sweet! Them steam engines won't roll without a bit of dessert after their meal . . . .

OK, just arsing around. Maybe there's a long stretch after Sweetwater before the can get to water again and the engines need every drop they can carry to cross it. So, even though they may load up at Flagstone, they may have to top off the tank before crossing the desert.

Yeah, that answer doesn't satisfy me either. Oh well.

No, you are right they needed water every 50 miles, so if there was a big enough stretch after Flagstone they'd have to top up
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on May 14, 2020, 01:39:52 PM
No, you are right they needed water every 50 miles, so if there was a big enough stretch after Flagstone they'd have to top up
Thanks, CJ. Could you now man the Help Desk while I go take a leak?
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: cigar joe on May 15, 2020, 11:12:52 AM
Nope, nothing on the long Italian release although the book does note the shot of Harmonica rising from the platform is a deleted scene and was not in the original Italian release. Lots of great stuff in this book! Can't wait to scan the contact sheets to have a better look.

I just came across this tidbit of info

American release

In the US, Paramount edited the film to about 145 minutes for the wide release, but the film underperformed at the box office, earning $2.1M in rentals in North America.[38]

The following scenes were cut for the American release:

The entire scene at Lionel Stander's trading post. Cheyenne (Robards) was not introduced in the American release until his arrival at the McBain ranch later in the film. Stander remained in the credits, even though he did not appear in this version at all.

The scene in which Morton and Frank discuss what to do with Jill at the Navajo Cliffs.

Morton's death scene was reduced considerably.

Cheyenne's death scene was completely excised.

Otherwise, one scene was slightly longer in the US version than in the international film release:
Following the opening duel (where all four gunmen fire and fall), Charles Bronson's character stands up again showing that he had only been shot in the arm. This part of the scene had been originally cut by director Sergio Leone for the worldwide theatrical release. It was added again for the U.S. market because the American distributors feared American viewers would not understand the story otherwise, especially since Harmonica's arm wound is originally shown for the first time in the scene at the trading post which was cut for the shorter U.S. version.

So could this mean it may have been in say the NYC/Los Angeles premiere prints and then was cut once again for an even shorter running time for distribution to the rest of the country?
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: stanton on May 16, 2020, 03:48:04 AM
A detailed overview of the genesis of the different USA versions can be found here:

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=10564.0

According to that at first the uncut version was released in the states.




Btw the similar cut UK version and the later US version differ in one scene.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: Cusser on May 16, 2020, 07:03:01 AM
I just came across this tidbit of info

American release

The following scenes were cut for the American release

Here's what I remember :
No scene of Harmonica buttoning up his sleeve, standing up, putting his gun back into the top of his satchel when I first saw this (Phoenix 1969)

Scene at the Stander's trading post was there.

Cheyenne's death was shown.


A year or so later, I saw a different version, and definitely Cheyenne's death scene was cut, I remarked about that at the time.


Fall 1984, a local art theater had a run, showed what they said was a version with cut scenes added back in.  This version did include the scene of Harmonica buttoning up his sleeve, standing up, putting his gun back into the top of his satchel. And maybe gunshot killing little Timmy McBain. I think I wrote notes of the differences in this version at the time, not sure I can still locate that though.

About 1987, saw again at Scottsdale Center for the Arts at a cult film series.   Same version as I saw in 1984, and that was the showing where some old ladies in the row in front of us were talking before the film "I've never heard of this film, but if Hank Fonda is in it, it has to be good".  They walked out after little Timmy's freckles got scattered across the desert by Frank's bullet, so that was actually pretty funny.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on May 16, 2020, 07:16:55 AM
About 1987, saw again at Scottsdale Center for the Arts at a cult film series.   Same version as I saw in 1984, and that was the showing where some old ladies in the row in front of us were talking before the film "I've never heard of this film, but if Hank Fonda is in it, it has to be good".  They walked out after little Timmy's freckles got scattered across the desert by Frank's bullet, so that was actually pretty funny.
LMRIAO!

And I'm not royal, not Irish, never been an empire.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: stanton on May 16, 2020, 09:41:32 AM
Here's what I remember :
No scene of Harmonica buttoning up his sleeve, standing up, putting his gun back into the top of his satchel when I first saw this (Phoenix 1969)

Scene at the Stander's trading post was there.

Cheyenne's death was shown.


A year or so later, I saw a different version, and definitely Cheyenne's death scene was cut, I remarked about that at the time.


Fall 1984, a local art theater had a run, showed what they said was a version with cut scenes added back in.  This version did include the scene of Harmonica buttoning up his sleeve, standing up, putting his gun back into the top of his satchel. And maybe gunshot killing little Timmy McBain. I think I wrote notes of the differences in this version at the time, not sure I can still locate that though.


This correspondents with the linked Video Watchdog article. You read it?

The 1984 version was the then newly created Paramount master, with which tried to restore the uncut theatrical version, but they made 3 faults, and still do not bother to change that. That's the version we all have on DVD or Blu now.
Title: Re: "OUATITW: Shot by Shot" by Frayling?
Post by: dave jenkins on May 16, 2020, 09:51:13 AM
The two black porters follow her and carry her luggage to the bench on the outside of the station, Jill sees the clock on the station read 7:55.  Time passes and the trackside is now deserted; Jill looks at her watch which now reads 10:10 and her luggage is back at trainside where she stepped off, and the two black porters again follow her with the luggage past the same bench and through the station into Flagstone proper. 
Cusser, I've got to thank you for bringing that scene to my attention. It caused me to study it more carefully then I ever had before.  I was gratified to make a few discoveries.

I?d really never thought about Leone?s use of a time jump in that scene before, I?d always just read the whole thing as Jill waiting and then giving up, simple as that. But SL actually does something interesting there, involving the station clock and Jill?s watch. Breaking the sequence down: 1) CU of Jill looking at the station clock; 2) CU of clock face; 3) then apparently a reaction shot of Jill just after looking at the clock face, but in fact, an unrelated moment two hours and 15 minutes later where Jill?s expression shows worry; 4) then Jill looks down at her watch; 5) we see the time on the watch face indicating the passage of time; 6) reaction shot of Jill. As I say, I never concerned myself with the time jump before, but once my attention was drawn to it I was surprised to discover how misleading Leone?s direction was there. The jump doesn?t come with Jill looking down at her watch, it comes before that where it?s almost impossible not to miss. The reason is that Leone uses a match cut between shots 1) and 3). I re-ran the scene several times before I finally got it. It?s confusing because in both 1) and 3) Claudia is framed, in identical set-ups, against the background of a train car, but they aren?t the same cars! In 1) there is the word ?Morton? on the side of the car; in 3) there is no lettering. But because the cars are the same color it?s easy to miss this detail, especially as the viewer is focusing on Claudia?s face in the foreground. So maybe Leone was being just a bit too clever, even to the point of obfuscation. Or maybe he was slipping in an Easter egg for a fanboy watching the film 40 years later.