Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => Duck, You Sucker => Topic started by: Concorde on September 08, 2004, 06:05:04 AM



Title: Sean or John?
Post by: Concorde on September 08, 2004, 06:05:04 AM
 ???

What exactly is the name of James Coburn's character in DUCK YOU SUCKER -- is it Sean or John?

Somebody in another thread said it's Sean, but that he uses an "old IRA trick" of Anglicizing the name. Since the IRA didn'tr even exist at the time in which the film was set (the "IRA" flag he carries is an anachronism), I tend to doubt this.

I'd always thought he was John, and his friend in Ireland (seen in the flashbacks) was Sean. Can anyone confirm/refute this?


Title: Re:Sean or John?
Post by: Lewis Hawk on September 08, 2004, 09:38:29 AM
i think "john" was originally called "sean" but he's change his name. Why? I don't know. Perhaps leone uses this anachronism about IRA again. But in the flash back music, the voice sings "Sean sean,... Sean sean" and leone said that it recalled the original gaelic name of john so..............


Title: Re:Sean or John?
Post by: DJIMBO on September 08, 2004, 02:50:22 PM
My theory is that he is called Sean but known as John in English circles because thats often what the IRA (or at least the IRB) did. If you notice, when Juan first asks him his name, he says Sean at first. Then when he doesnt understand, says John, the English version.

Never heard the theory that his friend was Sean tho...  ???


Title: Re:Sean or John?
Post by: Belkin on September 09, 2004, 03:35:31 AM
???

What exactly is the name of James Coburn's character in DUCK YOU SUCKER -- is it Sean or John?

Somebody in another thread said it's Sean, but that he uses an "old IRA trick" of Anglicizing the name. Since the IRA didn'tr even exist at the time in which the film was set (the "IRA" flag he carries is an anachronism), I tend to doubt this.

I'd always thought he was John, and his friend in Ireland (seen in the flashbacks) was Sean. Can anyone confirm/refute this?
The "old IRA trick" of Anglicizing names of places, people etc. goes back centuries. Obviously not started by the IRA but certainly carried on by them. It was a tatic used very successfully by the forerunners of the IRA, called the IRISH REPUBLICAN BROTHERHOOD (IRB) who were certainly in existance at the time of the movies setting (1913) three years before the (official)birth of the IRA (24th April 1916).
The "tactic" was used recently (in history terms) during the hunger strikes in N.I. For a full breakdown read TEN MEN DEAD.


Title: Re:Sean or John?
Post by: Concorde on September 09, 2004, 06:09:54 AM
Thanks for all the info, folks!

Yes, I noticed that bit where Mallory seems to hesitate and give his name two different ways when Juan asks him what his name is, but I wondered if maybe he's still feeling guilty over what happened in Ireland and was sort of assuming the ID of his dead friend, thus calling himself "Sean" -- or at least trying to.

Oh, well...an idea perhaps, but after weighing the evidence I'm ready to side with "Sean" being Mallory's real first name.

NOW, bear with me on ANOTHER name question: What is the name of Mallory's slain friend back in Ireland? I've heard him called "Nolan" but, as I recall, there is no dialogue at all in the Irish scenes. What's the source of that name...or does he have another name?...or is he <gulp>...a Man With No Name?!


Title: Re:Sean or John?
Post by: Lewis Hawk on September 09, 2004, 10:38:19 AM
there are no dialogs in this wonderfull flash back and Sean doesn't really talk about this event of his past. He don't talk about this friend so his name....
The one who can know that can only have been a  friend of leone...


Title: Re:Sean or John?
Post by: Concorde on September 09, 2004, 09:11:01 PM
Apparently Professor Frayling -- who has recorded a commentary track for the MGM Special Edition DVD of DUCK YOU SUCKER -- thinks that Mallory's friend from the Irish flashbacks is named "Ryan."

I wonder where he got THAT?   ???

Anybody have any clue?

Those who have seen the movie's script say the friend is called "Nolan" there. I don't think any name for him is ever spoken aloud (or shown onscreen) during the movie, although Coburn's character is identified on-camera as "John Mallory" in the newspaper which Juan's gang finds in his baggage.



Title: Re:Sean or John?
Post by: grandpa_chum on September 09, 2004, 10:46:25 PM
special edition??!!! did i miss something... do you have anymore info on that?


Title: Re:Sean or John?
Post by: Concorde on September 10, 2004, 06:16:42 AM
 ;)

Don't get too excited -- this is a long-term project and will not be in the stores anytime soon. But yeah, I recently talked to a guy at MGM who is actively working on the project. Christopher Frayling recorded a commentary track, which is how the "Ryan" observation came up.

BTW, This disc is being done right, with the same loving care they put into the recent DVD of THE GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY. (Same production crew is handling the work for it.)

Sooo..AHEM...it's more important than ever to figure out what Mallory's friend's name is!

Usually for such matters I refer to the DUCK YOU SUCKER novelization or to the theatrical pressbook, but here I'm stonewalled. The novelization incredibly does not include the flashback scenes (!!!)...and the pressbook lists the cast but eliminates David Warbeck completely!


Title: Re:Sean or John?
Post by: John Baldwin on September 10, 2004, 10:59:23 AM
For the name of Mallory's friends, it's not cause he has not in the movie that he has not in the Leone conception of the movie. It's more easy to give names, as if you don't use them...


Title: Re:Sean or John?
Post by: grandpa_chum on September 10, 2004, 11:01:32 AM
anyway it's great to hear that they are actually working on a special edition and that they chose the right guy to do the commentary... i'm sure they'll do it right, i'm guessing it will be the same version i saw when they rereleased it last fall in theatres.

I guess i don't understand why you guys even feel that john's friend even has a name?


Title: Re:Sean or John?
Post by: Lewis Hawk on September 10, 2004, 02:01:06 PM
sure! we could try to find the name of the girl in the flash back!!! it has no interest!


Title: Re:Sean or John?
Post by: Jon on September 16, 2004, 11:35:08 AM
MGM special edition! Hurray! I've bought this movie twice already on DVD [UK and Italian versions], and, well, I'm looking forward to buying it again. Seriously, it's good that at last it's being done properly. Finally I will be able to watch it all on one disc without having to change from the UK to the Italian DVD near the end to get the final flashback!

I doubt that Leone ever gave Sean's friend or girlfriend names, after all it's not really important. Maybe we should just call his friend 'David'.

I once read [can't remember where] that Sean's friend was actually his BROTHER! That makes the whole menage a trois thing very wierd!



Title: Re:Sean or John?
Post by: grandpa_chum on September 17, 2004, 11:20:34 AM
eh... i don't think that makes it any more wierd... still weird but.


Title: Re:Sean or John?
Post by: Lewis Hawk on September 20, 2004, 10:44:54 AM
i don't understand why you say that there is a menage a trois??? Only sean kiss the girl!!!


Title: Re:Sean or John?
Post by: grandpa_chum on September 20, 2004, 05:56:53 PM
in the final flashback, just before sean blows himself up they both kiss the girl... and sean watches and smiles... thats where the trios comes in


Title: Re:Sean or John?
Post by: DJIMBO on September 22, 2004, 03:46:46 AM
out of interest, roughly how long is this final flashback, is it a sizeable omission in terms of time as well as story?


Title: Re:Sean or John?
Post by: Jon on September 22, 2004, 04:55:05 AM
The full version of the final flashback is about 3 1/2 mins., although one of the older versions of the film reduced it to about 30 secs.


Title: Re:Sean or John?
Post by: Nobody on September 22, 2004, 10:35:12 AM
woohoo! Special Edition! You gotta love it.


Title: Re:Sean or John?
Post by: Concorde on November 10, 2004, 04:44:44 AM
 ???

Maybe we should change the name of this thread -- or start a new one -- about the name of the "Mallory's Friend" character played by David Warbeck in the flashbacks.

I just found a reference to him as "Nolan" on page 98 of the DUCK YOU SUCKER paperback novelization.

 :o


Title: Sean and John
Post by: The Peacemaker on May 28, 2006, 03:54:02 PM
In the movie his name is Sean but on some DVD and CD covers ( including imdb ) they refer to him as John. Why is that?


Title: Re: Sean and John
Post by: The Firecracker on May 28, 2006, 05:04:44 PM
In the movie his name is Sean but on some DVD and CD covers ( including imdb ) they refer to him as John. Why is that?

well his name is mentioned as "John" in the film. Never Sean(except for one scene).


Title: Re: Sean and John
Post by: Juan Miranda on May 28, 2006, 08:47:46 PM
If you want, Peacemaker, you could have a little lookie back through these threads. Dunno if they'll help or just leave you more confused? (http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/Tarkyhitch/untitled.jpg)

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=2093

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=10.60

Sean, John e Juan, no?


Title: Re: Sean and John
Post by: The Peacemaker on May 29, 2006, 09:06:30 AM
If you want, Peacemaker, you could have a little lookie back through these threads. Dunno if they'll help or just leave you more confused? (http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/Tarkyhitch/untitled.jpg)

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=2093

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=10.60

Sean, John e Juan, no?

Thanks for the help but I'm still confused. I haven't seen this movie for over two years and only saw it once. Why is John called Sean in one scene if his name is John? And if his name is John, then how come on the soundtrack there are the sean chants?


Title: Re: Sean and John
Post by: Juan Miranda on May 29, 2006, 09:51:57 AM
In several moments in the film, he is clearly called "John Mallory". The confusion comes when Juan askes him his name. He has just been thinking of David Warbeck's character in the old days in Ireland. Still in a daze he says "Sean..." He then quickly corrects himself and says "John."

So. Was his real name Sean and he's changed it to "John"? Or was the Warbeck character called "Sean", and Coburn says his name because he was thinking of him? Are the "Sean Sean Sean" chants in the music a haunting memory of his old friend and collegue, a man who he killed, or a song about Coburn himself?

Even the three Sean's on the soundtrack seem significant, as there are three "John's" in the movie, John, Sean and Juan, which all translate as the same thing in Italian, "Giovanni".

Perhaps the Morricone event at the NFT in July could be perfect occassion to try and clear up the mystery? I'll see if I can ask him if there is an audience Q+A.


Title: Re: Sean and John
Post by: The Peacemaker on May 29, 2006, 09:58:18 AM

Perhaps the Morricone event at the NFT in July could be perfect occassion to try and clear up the mystery? I'll see if I can ask him if there is an audience Q+A.

Thanks. Unfortunately I can't go to that event, I don't live in Britain.  :'(

I would love to go and see Morricone live in person and the Eli Wallach interview sounded great. He's a very kind man from what I've heard, a gentleman.


Title: Re: Sean and John
Post by: dave jenkins on June 07, 2007, 04:43:53 PM
Now that the R1 DYS has been released, a whole cadre of viewers will be exposed to the documentaries for the first time, and they'll probably get exercised over the whole Sean/John/Juan issue. Rather than start yet another thread on the subject, I thought I'd bump this to the top of the heap so that people can review what has already been posted.


Title: Re: Sean and John
Post by: The Peacemaker on June 07, 2007, 09:20:50 PM
I noticed I started this thread while back before I saw the film.

Now that I've seen the movie a good 5 times, including once on the big screen, I can state my opinion on the subject; I definitely think Coburn's character is Sean. Then again you can call him John too, they're the same name. I just think Sean is more appropriate because he's Irish and John is anglicized, plus I like the name Sean.


Title: Re: Sean and John
Post by: marmota-b on June 08, 2007, 02:06:59 AM
And, as i already wrote before somewhere else, I prefer calling him Sean, too - for the same reasons you state; and then also because when I call him John in written, I get confused with Juan...


Title: Re: Sean and John
Post by: cigar joe on June 09, 2007, 06:25:43 AM
I'll add my two cents pretty soon too!


Title: Re: Sean and John
Post by: smithrs on June 13, 2007, 06:10:17 PM

There is the suggestion that Sean is in fact the name of the other male figure in the flashback sequences.  In the final flashback sequence, we see for the first time the love interest of John kissing the other male.  That coupled with the change in the music score to be the same one used in bar where John shoots the "Sean" suggests that there was a love triangle and perhaps a bit of jelously.  If you notice the final shot on John whose smile begins to fade while watching his love interest kiss Sean, it gives some credence to the love triangle theory.

He says the name Sean when asked his name by Jean because he is haunted by the memory of the "one time he judged somebody" With that, he was referring to his shooting his friend in the bar.

What is interesting is that the love triangle theory is suggested in the final moments of the film.  And that ending was cut significantly on the American release such that we never see the girl kissing John's friend.



Title: Re: Sean and John
Post by: dave jenkins on June 13, 2007, 06:41:19 PM
Yes, there is a menage a trois in the DYS flashback, but not a love triangle. The two are different. The latter almost always entails jealousy, the former does not necessarily (has no one on this board ever seen Jules and Jim?).

The point is, Leone gives no indication that there is anything dark going on between Sean and Sean prior to Nolan's capture by the British. Also, there is absolutely no reason to suppose that Mallory betrayed Nolan before Nolan betrayed the cause. Without any such evidence, it is best, IMHO, to stick with the simplest explanation the film affords us, namely: Nolan and Malory shared a political cause and a woman (who may symbolically represent that cause); Nolan fell into the hands of the British (perhaps in some mundane way); Nolan, under torture, betrayed his fellows; Mallory took revenge on Nolan and immediately regretted it; years later in Mexico he found a way to atone for his deed, and at the point of dying, experienced something resembling a state of grace (represented by the idyllic flashback that reunites Mallory with his friends in the Edenic Irish countryside). Other, more convoluted readings of the story are not supported by the film.


Title: Re: Sean and John
Post by: thiar on June 18, 2007, 01:29:48 PM
Hi,
I am a new member to this forum but I have enjoyed it for some time. The reason I joined is to try and sort out the Sean/John topic. I believe that they are the same person. Being from Ireland we have a Gaelic language although English is the widely spoken language. During the period of this film the Irish revolutionaries were fighting  for independence but also one of the main items on their agenda was the restoration of the native Gaelic language. Therefore all the revolutionaries used the Gaelic version of their names. For example Patrick used Padraig, Dennis would use Donnacha and John would use Sean. The authorities would never refer to them in the Gaelic version hence the John Mallory article in the newspaper. So in Ireland he would be refered to as Sean. That is why the Sean Sean theme is only used in the flashback scenes as to emphasise Seans Irish past but he is John when he is Mexico. I hope


Title: Re: Sean and John
Post by: marmota-b on June 18, 2007, 02:01:16 PM
Hi,
I am a new member to this forum but I have enjoyed it for some time. The reason I joined is to try and sort out the Sean/John topic. I believe that they are the same person. Being from Ireland we have a Gaelic language although English is the widely spoken language. During the period of this film the Irish revolutionaries were fighting  for independence but also one of the main items on their agenda was the restoration of the native Gaelic language. Therefore all the revolutionaries used the Gaelic version of their names. For example Patrick used Padraig, Dennis would use Donnacha and John would use Sean. The authorities would never refer to them in the Gaelic version hence the John Mallory article in the newspaper. So in Ireland he would be refered to as Sean. That is why the Sean Sean theme is only used in the flashback scenes as to emphasise Seans Irish past but he is John when he is Mexico. I hope

Thanks for that, thiar, I thought so, too.


Title: Re: Sean and John
Post by: dave jenkins on June 18, 2007, 02:34:53 PM
Yeah, that makes sense, I guess I've been waiting for someone from Ireland to make this point and you've made it very well. But see the links above for the involved discussion that has occurred on this topic. The fact that Sean/John are the same doesn't preclude the possibility that Nolan is also a Sean, making the My Three Seans theory still viable.


Title: Re: Sean and John
Post by: marmota-b on June 18, 2007, 02:40:08 PM
I quite like the idea Nolan was Sean too, because when Juan starts his speech about how they have the same name and how it is destiny, it's the moment when Sean gets his first flashback in the film (I think).


Title: Re: Sean and John
Post by: The Peacemaker on June 18, 2007, 04:47:38 PM
I quite like the idea Nolan was Sean too, because when Juan starts his speech about how they have the same name and how it is destiny, it's the moment when Sean gets his first flashback in the film (I think).

Funny you should mention that because I had the same idea.


I was going to post something about it but just forgot to.


Title: Re: Sean and John
Post by: marmota-b on June 19, 2007, 12:36:41 AM
So you don't have to anymore. :)


Title: Re: Sean and John
Post by: VC2020 on June 25, 2007, 11:12:18 PM
I think Sean is the man in the flashback and John is John Mallory. So the previous pair of partners were John and Sean and Sean betrayed him. John says "Sean" when asked about his name because he was thinking of his old partner. So it was John and Sean in Ireland and John and Juan in Mexico.

Maybe I'm way off as I've only seen the film once but I think that's how it is.


Title: Re: Sean and John
Post by: Tucumcari Bound on June 25, 2007, 11:42:57 PM
I think Sean is the man in the flashback and John is John Mallory. So the previous pair of partners were John and Sean and Sean betrayed him. John says "Sean" when asked about his name because he was thinking of his old partner. So it was John and Sean in Ireland and John and Juan in Mexico.

Maybe I'm way off as I've only seen the film once but I think that's how it is.

I thought Juan just messed up his name and misunderstood Sean for John. Sean Malroy just went with it from what I see. Most of the film he's reffered to as John, so this is the reason why his character name appears as John in the credits.


Title: Re: Sean or John?
Post by: Tucumcari Bound on July 02, 2007, 09:51:13 AM
If his name is Sean though, than why did h is name appear in the newspaper as JOHN MALROY when Juan is reading it?


Title: Re: Sean or John?
Post by: Jill on July 02, 2007, 10:00:15 AM
Beacause the British government doesn't uses traditional Irish names.


Title: Re: Sean or John?
Post by: Tucumcari Bound on July 02, 2007, 10:14:43 AM
Beacause the British government doesn't uses traditional Irish names.

Interesting. Thanks Jill.  ;)


Title: Re: Sean and John
Post by: Skullchrist on July 09, 2007, 02:48:58 PM
There is the suggestion that Sean is in fact the name of the other male figure in the flashback sequences.  In the final flashback sequence, we see for the first time the love interest of John kissing the other male.  That coupled with the change in the music score to be the same one used in bar where John shoots the "Sean" suggests that there was a love triangle and perhaps a bit of jelously.  If you notice the final shot on John whose smile begins to fade while watching his love interest kiss Sean, it gives some credence to the love triangle theory.

He says the name Sean when asked his name by Jean because he is haunted by the memory of the "one time he judged somebody" With that, he was referring to his shooting his friend in the bar.

What is interesting is that the love triangle theory is suggested in the final moments of the film.  And that ending was cut significantly on the American release such that we never see the girl kissing John's friend.



I tend to agree with this the most.  I also agree there is a difference between a menage a trois and a love triangle but human nature precludes both of these.  Love always comes when least expected or wanted and it's human nature to want to be the object of desire whether or not the initial intention was a 'playful' relationship or 'no strings attached'.  If there's anyone here that's ever been involved in one of these relationships they'll agree that there is no such thing.  A relationship between a single man and woman is complex enough without adding more testosterone.

I also like the theory that they are both Seans.  That is truly brilliant.

I love all of his movies but this movie has a very tragic and meloncholic tone that is hard to shake off.


Title: Re: Sean and John
Post by: dave jenkins on July 09, 2007, 04:27:08 PM
Love always comes when least expected or wanted and it's human nature to want to be the object of desire whether or not the initial intention was a 'playful' relationship or 'no strings attached'.  If there's anyone here that's ever been involved in one of these relationships they'll agree that there is no such thing.  A relationship between a single man and woman is complex enough without adding more testosterone.
Well, yeah, although I don't know what this has to do with DYS. It's really hard to fire pistols quickly with dead accuracy in real life, but characters in Leone films do it routinely.

What I see in the final flashback is a successful menage a trois (successful in that all the members are happy). In real life, such things are extremely rare, but SL shows us one all the same. Perhaps what we see is not a flashback of an actual historical moment, but an idealized or fantasized moment. Even if that is the case, there is no reason to suspect the "reality" beneath the fantasy is somehow dark or twisted. The final flashback, unlike the final ones in FAFDM and OUATITW, does not, in my view, operate to provide plot information; it serves to reinforce the movie's central themes, and perhaps provides an index of Mallory's inner state (psychological and spiritual). And everything in the flashback is positive; I don't see any of the negative things that Glenn Erickson sees.


Title: Re: Sean or John?
Post by: The Peacemaker on July 10, 2007, 12:19:49 PM
Completely agree with the above statement.


Title: Re: Sean or John?
Post by: Tucumcari Bound on July 10, 2007, 12:50:44 PM
Everytime I watch this film, I think more and more his name is indeed John. The reason the song repeats the line, "Sean, Sean, Sean" is because he's haunted by the killing of his friend Sean. He's so obsessed and guilty about what he did, he answers Sean after Juan asks him what his name is. John is indeed his name, Sean is clearly his friend's name.