Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => Duck, You Sucker => Topic started by: Novecento on March 31, 2017, 07:06:30 PM



Title: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: Novecento on March 31, 2017, 07:06:30 PM
As part of a French interview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgramxuvfVo

The dubbing is by Jean-Pierre Duclos for Coburn's role.

One interesting point is at the 0:54 mark where Leone confirms that DYS is the second part of a trilogy of which the 3rd part will be OUATIA. Evidently the notion of a trilogy was not something he just came up with at a later date.


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: noodles_leone on April 01, 2017, 04:27:21 AM
Wow. Great stuff.

Also, it's the first evidence that Leone actually supervised the French dubbing of his films: I've often read that fact but wasn't sure about it. The top notch quality of the French versions is now explained once and for all.


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: dave jenkins on April 01, 2017, 06:31:59 AM

One interesting point is at the 0:54 mark where Leone confirms that DYS is the second part of a trilogy of which the 3rd part will be OUATIA. Evidently the notion of a trilogy was not something he just came up with at a later date.
Yeah, but tell me, was DYS part of "the trilogy" back when Leone was trying to get someone else to direct it? Would Leone have considered DYS the second film in "his trilogy" if it had been made by, say, Santi? Let's agree that Leone had wanted to make OUATIA for years, that he made concessions to the industry that resulted in OUATITW and DYS, and then, having made those films and still determined to launch his dream project, suddenly discovered he'd been planning a trilogy. How much later does "at a later date" have to be?


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: noodles_leone on April 01, 2017, 08:01:05 AM
Good point but who cares? Many autors discover they've made a trilogy in the final stages of the creation of the third book/movie/play. Planning has very little to do with anything here but if you really want to go down that road, well, the OUTIA that was planned at that time was very different from the once we got to see, so him being conscious he was working on a trilogy in 1971 may very well have influenced the final outcome. So I'd be with Novecento here: "at a later date" probably means "NOT while he was working on the trilogy".

I don't really get the discussion anyway since he could have said numerous times "THIS ISN'T A TRILOGY", it wouldn't have changed much... considering how these three movies work together, are different from the previous trilogy, and, you know, are a trilogy.


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: stanton on April 01, 2017, 09:42:25 AM
considering how these three movies work together, are different from the previous trilogy, and, you know, are a trilogy.

Really?

I think with GBU instead of DYS I have a better trilogy. (Once upon a Time in the Whatever)


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: dave jenkins on April 01, 2017, 10:18:14 AM
I don't really get the discussion anyway since he could have said numerous times "THIS ISN'T A TRILOGY", it wouldn't have changed much... considering how these three movies work together, are different from the previous trilogy, and, you know, are a trilogy.
No, they are not a trilogy, no matter at what point Leone thought they were. You can call them a trio or something else, but "trilogy" has very specific requirements (we've been through this in another thread). My point, which I have made on several occasions, is the Leone is entitled to his opinion, but that opinion is not in itself dispositive.


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: dave jenkins on April 01, 2017, 02:45:53 PM
I think with GBU instead of DYS I have a better trilogy. (Once upon a Time in the Whatever)
The three I would group together--I think I'd use the term triptych instead of trilogy--is GBU, DYS, and OUATIA. They are thematically similar, all having to do with betrayal among men and the consequences thereof. GBU treats the theme with humor, DYS takes the theme seriously, OUATIA presents it as something so profound as to be epistemologically damning. There is a steady advance in Leone's approach to the idea--he ups the stakes with each of the succeeding films.

OUATITW is an outlier, unlike anything else in the Leone corpus. Leone's self-conscious use of archetypes makes the film not merely a compendium of all other Westerns; it is a film that takes its own "filmness" as its subject. Leone could not have created it simply by using his patented technique. He had divest himself of all technique, then appropriate to himself everything with which cinema could afford one. In the process, of course, he re-appropriated his own signature style, but a style now presented in quotation marks. He quoted the Westerns of Ford, Hawks, Daves, Aldrich, Ray . . . and those of Sergio Leone. Such a move allowed Leone to use genre to transcend genre. It is the only time Leone ever did that.  Thus, it is his only Postmodern film.


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: Novecento on April 01, 2017, 06:09:04 PM
In other news, there's some awesome footage of Leone supervising the French dubbing of DYS  ;)


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: stanton on April 02, 2017, 01:53:51 AM
The three I would group together--I think I'd use the term triptych instead of trilogy--is GBU, DYS, and OUATIA. They are thematically similar, all having to do with betrayal among men and the consequences thereof. GBU treats the theme with humor, DYS takes the theme seriously, OUATIA presents it as something so profound as to be epistemologically damning. There is a steady advance in Leone's approach to the idea--he ups the stakes with each of the succeeding films.

OUATITW is an outlier, unlike anything else in the Leone corpus. Leone's self-conscious use of archetypes makes the film not merely a compendium of all other Westerns; it is a film that takes its own "filmness" as its subject. Leone could not have created it simply by using his patented technique. He had divest himself of all technique, then appropriate to himself everything with which cinema could afford one. In the process, of course, he re-appropriated his own signature style, but a style now presented in quotation marks. He quoted the Westerns of Ford, Hawks, Daves, Aldrich, Ray . . . and those of Sergio Leone. Such a move allowed Leone to use genre to transcend genre. It is the only time Leone ever did that.  Thus, it is his only Postmodern film.

My Name Is Nobody?


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: noodles_leone on April 02, 2017, 03:57:52 AM
Yes, MNIN, but also FOD, FAFDM, GBU, OUATITW, DYS and OUATIA are all post modern films. I agree though, OUATITW is the most post modern one.

Anyway, Leone's only true trilogy is Ben Hur-CoR-MNIN. Some say it's a quadrilogy but I would't include The Bicyle Thief.


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: stanton on April 02, 2017, 05:21:40 AM
Yes, MNIN, but also FOD, FAFDM, GBU, OUATITW, DYS and OUATIA are all post modern films. I agree though, OUATITW is the most post modern one.

Yes, all of Leone's westerns have a post modern approach towards the genre, the SW in general has that.
Quote
Anyway, Leone's only true trilogy is Ben Hur-CoR-MNIN. Some say it's a quadrilogy but I would't include The Bicyle Thief.

You forgot The Last Days of Pompeji, and that confirms us a great truth, trilogies in four parts are always the best.


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: noodles_leone on April 02, 2017, 08:47:51 AM
Yes, all of Leone's westerns have a post modern approach towards the genre, the SW in general has that.
You forgot The Last Days of Pompeji, and that confirms us a great truth, trilogies in four parts are always the best.

 ;D
I always forget The Last Days of Pompeji.


Back to Novecento's link: I really hope you guys can understand some kind of French because the directions Leone gives Jean-Pierre Duclos are precise and precious.


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 02, 2017, 09:03:45 AM
Re: post-modernism: OUATITW was Leone's homage to the Western, with references to American Western films.OUATIA was his homage to the gangster movie, with references to American gangster films. Frayling discusses this in STDWD, in his chapter on OUATIA http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=10253.msg168004#msg168004


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: noodles_leone on April 02, 2017, 10:55:06 AM
Of course. But My Name Is Nobody is (also) about the relationship between classic Hollywood western films and the modern SW, as is FFDM.
FoD and GBU are less openly/directly post modern but like Stanton said, like many SW, they're also so self conscious and genre conscious than we're still deep into post modern territory.
DYS is the weird one, but the beginning is exactly as genre conscious as the previous ones, and is often even a direct response to Leone's earlier body of work.

That being said, to me, the link between the 3 "Once Upon A Time" films apart from being all called "Once Upon A Time" is the American Dream:

- how mythologic it is
- how disappointing it is
- how romantic/fascinating it is anyway


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: dave jenkins on April 02, 2017, 07:24:58 PM

Back to Novecento's link: I really hope you guys can understand some kind of French because the directions Leone gives Jean-Pierre Duclos are precise and precious.
Uh, yeah. Thanks for all the help. Asshole.


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: dave jenkins on April 02, 2017, 07:28:51 PM
Re: post-modernism: OUATITW was Leone's homage to the Western, with references to American Western films.OUATIA was his homage to the gangster movie, with references to American gangster films. Frayling discusses this in STDWD, in his chapter on OUATIA http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=10253.msg168004#msg168004
Very, very, very, very different films. Homages do not a Postmodern film make. What happens in OUATITW (which is filled with archetypes) is very different from what happens in OUATIA (which is filled with characters, clichéd though some of them may be).


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: dave jenkins on April 02, 2017, 07:33:07 PM
My Name Is Nobody?
It's a fucking parody! Parody has been with us since the beginning (hence the Greek name). Are you saying that every parody is a work of Postmodernism? You are so full of shit your eyes are brown.


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: stanton on April 03, 2017, 02:40:20 AM
It's a fucking parody! Parody has been with us since the beginning (hence the Greek name). Are you saying that every parody is a work of Postmodernism?

It's only a parody in parts, it's only a comedy in parts, it is also a typical SW in parts, and it is a real twilight western. And in its "serious" parts it is very post modern.

But you are right, OUTA is not post modern (maybe its main fault?), and Giu la testa also not, maybe in some parts, but not really.

Quote
You are so full of shit your eyes are brown.

Uh, yeah. Thanks for all the help. Asshole.

Stood up on the wrong foot this morning?



Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: dave jenkins on April 03, 2017, 11:49:31 AM
It's only a parody in parts, it's only a comedy in parts, it is also a typical SW in parts, and it is a real twilight western. And in its "serious" parts it is very post modern.
Uh, could you give me a ferinstance from the "serious" parts? I'm assuming we agree on the definition of Postmodernism  (exhausted forms are re-invested with meaning via the appropriation of "texts").


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: stanton on April 04, 2017, 02:10:54 AM
Uh, could you give me a ferinstance

A what?


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: dave jenkins on April 04, 2017, 05:33:41 AM
ferinstance="for instance" (i.e. an example)


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: stanton on April 04, 2017, 05:39:49 AM
A ferinstance: actually the whole film, despite the funny parts, cause it is an absolute twilight western, very peckinpahesque, very melancholic in every Fonda scene. Half of the film is dead serious (the Fonda half), the other half is parodistic, and sometimes, but only sometimes, a mere comedy, and I would like to cut a few of this pure-comedy parts out, and make the film by that less clucherish and even more leonesque.

Give me a like for that ...


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: dave jenkins on April 04, 2017, 05:46:23 AM
Hmmmm . . .


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: Novecento on April 04, 2017, 09:03:03 AM
A ferinstance: actually the whole film, despite the funny parts, cause it is an absolute twilight western, very peckinpahesque, very melancholic in every Fonda scene. Half of the film is dead serious (the Fonda half), the other half is parodistic, and sometimes, but only sometimes, a mere comedy, and I would like to cut a few of this pure-comedy parts out, and make the film by that less clucherish and even more leonesque.

Give me a like for that ...

Like!  :)

Well broadly.... I mean not all the Fonda stuff is that serious - it's not like the opening scene takes itself that seriously for example, nor does the Morricone score all the time. However, I agree with your main point and think MNIN could have been a fantastic film had it not been for all the Trinity slapstick nonsense...


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: mike siegel on April 04, 2017, 09:05:51 AM
A ferinstance: actually the whole film, despite the funny parts, cause it is an absolute twilight western, very peckinpahesque, very melancholic in every Fonda scene. Half of the film is dead serious (the Fonda half), the other half is parodistic, and sometimes, but only sometimes, a mere comedy, and I would like to cut a few of this pure-comedy parts out, and make the film by that less clucherish and even more leonesque.

Give me a like for that ...

100% on target. The soundtrack speaks the same... The climax with that wonderful letter Fonda reads to his new friend... Never saw that scene without sharing a tear... Great stuff. FOR THOSE WHO GET IT  :) :)
 (Re-cutting: Yes. Back then the fast-motion stuff was OK, but I doubt he would have done it 5 years later...)


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: Novecento on April 04, 2017, 09:08:02 AM
It is also worth noting that some of the slapstick scenes (e.g. urinal / train, fairground etc) were filmed by Leone and were some of the best filmed parts... I just wish he hadn't gone down the comedic route at all.


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: mike siegel on April 04, 2017, 09:11:43 AM
The comedy approach (on Nobody's part) was right of course. (??).
But fast-motion in films rarely works. I mean most of the Trinity fun came
from just the opposite! The guy was sleepy and lazy and all... Quick on the draw
and fast with his fists... No need to slow down the camera.


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: stanton on April 04, 2017, 12:47:25 PM
Like!  :)

Well broadly.... I mean not all the Fonda stuff is that serious - it's not like the opening scene takes itself that seriously for example, 

I think it does. Similar to other scenes in which Leone western directing could be viewed as slight parodistic. At least the Fonda parts are in the same way serious as all the overdone scenes in the other Leone westerns, which back in the 60s were also often viewed as a grotesque parody on westerns.
The score of course is often turning known music motives upside down, as it is also a film about former Leone westerns.


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: stanton on April 04, 2017, 12:51:40 PM
The comedy approach (on Nobody's part) was right of course. (??).
But fast-motion in films rarely works. I mean most of the Trinity fun came
from just the opposite! The guy was sleepy and lazy and all... Quick on the draw
and fast with his fists... No need to slow down the camera.

It still works well in the Trinity films, and when I first watched MNIN as a child I wanted more from that, and was disappointed by all that other scenes, but know it kills the balnace between comedy and melancholy.

The urinal scene is btw absolute ok for me, a fine parody on western duels in the Leone style, not one of the scenes I would like to get rid of. And, yes, very well directed.


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: mike siegel on April 04, 2017, 01:09:26 PM
The pee scene is fine... I was just referring to the (three?) fast-motion bits (Drawing faster than his saddle could fall down / slapping in the bar & the soldiers chasing the train. All three could have been done with fast-motion. Fast motion is bad beyond the silent era, except for Jerry Lewis maybe. Btw, Peckinpah did it too... in THE LOSERS & CABLE HOGUE.


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: Novecento on April 04, 2017, 03:47:16 PM
The pee scene is fine... I was just referring to the (three?) fast-motion bits (Drawing faster than his saddle could fall down / slapping in the bar & the soldiers chasing the train. All three could have been done with fast-motion. Fast motion is bad beyond the silent era, except for Jerry Lewis maybe. Btw, Peckinpah did it too... in THE LOSERS & CABLE HOGUE.

Yes - true, it doesn't look good by today's standards.

What's "The Losers" like?



Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: dave jenkins on April 04, 2017, 04:55:52 PM
I'm coming around to the idea that Nobody is a Postmodern film (you win this one, stanton (bastard!)). That would mean the two Fonda films form a unit within the Leone oeuvre. I'm OK with that, especially if it puts paid to the notion that there is a Once Upon A Time trilogy. 

There can still be two trilogies, with one title that overlaps. The three Dollars films can still be considered together. The second trilogy--or triptych, actually,as I've already indicated--would be GBU, DYS, and OUATIA. Somehow I feel this is how things are going to be recorded in the Sergio Leone Encyclopedia.


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: mike siegel on April 05, 2017, 01:08:18 AM
Yes - true, it doesn't look good by today's standards.

What's "The Losers" like?



THE LOSERS is quite interesting. First of all he named the protagonists Dave Blassingame (& his dog "Brown") & Burgundy Smith (as in THE WESTERNER),
the cast is terrific (Lee Marvin, Keenan Wynn, Dub Taylor, Rosemary Clooney) and it is more or less a comedy. It was the first time Sam
used slow-motion, people falling - just like in THE WILD BUNCH. There's some singing in it that is a little bit too much for my taste, but
overall very good. PERICLES ON 31st STREET I prefer though.


Title: Re: Archival footage of Leone directing the French dub
Post by: noodles_leone on April 05, 2017, 07:49:58 AM
Somehow I feel this is how things are going to be recorded in the Sergio Leone Encyclopedia.

You're a basket of deplorables all by yourself.