Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => Once Upon A Time In America => Topic started by: THE BIG MAN on October 02, 2004, 04:44:27 PM



Title: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: THE BIG MAN on October 02, 2004, 04:44:27 PM
Would anyone like to comment on the rumors that producer Arnon Milchan has been talking to the  Leone estate about restoring the cut scenes of OUATIA for a directors cut of this great film.


Title: Re:NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Jon on October 06, 2004, 09:51:09 AM
First i've heard of it, but it would be a dream come true!


Title: Re:NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: grandpa_chum on October 06, 2004, 10:33:36 AM
i happen to think it's a bad idea... assuming that the cut footage isn't in great conditioning and that the restoring would be more of a remaking... i also heard that there is no sound on the cut footage... i just think it is a bad idea to try and get badly kept footage into an already great movie.


Title: Re:NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: THE BIG MAN on October 06, 2004, 01:48:59 PM
I happen to think its a bloody brilliant idea.
When scenes from a film end up on the cutting room floor its usually for pacing or rating reasons- for scenes of sex and violence.  This wasnt the case with OUATIA , Leone reluctantly excised between forty five and fifty minutes of what he called 'significant material' from the film once he realised there was no chance of a two part film!

All the scenes of Louise Fletcher as the director of the Riverdale Cemtery, how Noodles came to meet Eve, Senator Bailey and the elderly Jimmy O'Donnell, Noodles watching Deborah on stage and at the station cafe, Max and Noodles casing the Federal Reserve Bank, the elderly Carol and Noodles at the rest home, a black car tailing the elderly Noodles, young Noodles quarreling with his parents, Elderly Noodles in the office of a synagogue, God im getting goose pimples just thinking about these extra scenes.

Think about it Gramps we can have the best of both worlds, we will always have the 229 minutes (recently restored) Euro/dvd version that we all love so much.  And then we would have Sergio's cut.  Dont get me wrong Directors cuts can sometimes be too much of a good thing. I prefer the original cuts of Amadeus and Donnie Darko to the newly restored directors cuts.  So even if OUATIA DC  turned out to be one big let down (somehow I dont think this would be possible with  Leone ) at least we would all get the chance to make up our own minds. I happen to think it would make it a richer experience.
The print would have to be remastered, the actors would have to redub there lines, Morricone would need to be available for the musical cues, Nino Baragli or one of his assistant editors would need to be on hand to advise where Sergio wanted the cuts-especially when were dealing with flashbacks.  Expensive-yes. Difficult but not impossible.

Hell I would even like to get my hands on the infamous 147min US release, only to see what a pigs ear the Ladd Co made of it. So If any of my cousins across the pond have a spare vhs copy-let me know?


Title: Re:NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: grandpa_chum on October 06, 2004, 03:11:15 PM
i agree with you... if it can be done correctly... i just don't see that happening... seems like a tall order.

i mean look at all the complaints about the good the bad and the ugly... and that was a much simplier restoration... they tried to do too much from what i've heard... all they had to do IMO was add the italian-only scenes that were mising from the american release and leave them as is with subtitles... but no they had to redub them, which i've heard sound terrible... also heard they botched the sound, even on the scenes that they didn't have to touch but decided the mono sound wasn't good enough... this is all from what i've heard, because of this i haven't even taken a look at the new gbu restoration, and if i hear the same problems with this, i wouldn't touch it either... i'm just skeptical that is all... and maybe they have the right people on this one.


Title: Re:NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: DJIMBO on October 06, 2004, 04:00:32 PM
I would like to see the scenes with Louise Fletcher (to shore up the explanation for Max's 'death') and the scenes of Noodles with his family to demonstrate the full extent of his sorrow - but no more. You're talking 4 hours plus - and that is too long really. To me it flows fine as it is - but any longer and you're going to alienate even the die-hards.


Title: Re:NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Jupa on December 28, 2004, 09:05:20 AM
Well,the possibility of a new restored OUATIA version to be released is very likely.After all,OUATITW and GBU have already been re-released on DVD.OUATIA would most probably be the next target.


Title: Re:NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Jupa on December 28, 2004, 09:07:50 AM
i mean look at all the complaints about the good the bad and the ugly... and that was a much simplier restoration... they tried to do too much from what i''ve heard... all they had to do IMO was add the italian-only scenes that were mising from the american release and leave them as is with subtitles... but no they had to redub them, which i''ve heard sound terrible.. this is all from what i''ve heard, because of this i haven''t even taken a look at the new gbu restoration

Well,you heard it wrong.  :) I got the GBU DVD at Christmas,and it was fantastic!The dubbing was good,as well as all the other voices and sounds.  :o


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Cusser on January 02, 2005, 03:13:57 PM
I''m also happy with new 2-disc restored GBU, and I also have the original GBU DVD, so I have it both ways.  For the GBU music, the GDM European CD with the extra tracks is the best I''ve got so far.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: redyred on January 05, 2005, 01:32:38 PM
Maybe the best thing would be options on the dvd to view the film with all the new material put in or as just the old 220 minute version. It would have been better if they''d done that with the GBU dvd, cos I find the restored scenes are of such obviously lower quality they break up the flow of the film.

Of course, since most of us probably have the 220 minute dvd it wouldn''t really matter to us.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Bill Carson on January 05, 2005, 03:17:46 PM
 8)  y''know, I think that it is unfortunate but true - like another "dismissed at time of release" classic: BLADE RUNNER, we may never get to see a complete, COMPLETE version of ONCE UPON A TIME IN AMERICA on dvd.


Title: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on April 06, 2007, 03:35:33 AM
There is been rumors that Warner Bros and producer Arnon Milchan head of Regency Entertainment planning to release closest version Sergio Leone 2006 daughter of Sergio Leone Raffaella Leone had interview with italian press she confirmed here's the text below translated to the english and link to the italian original website

http://www.repubblica.it/2006/09/sezioni/spettacoli_e_cultura/cinema/venezia/il-leone-restaurato/il-leone-restaurato/il-leone-restaurato.html

 - Reporter:
And you are now working on Once Upon A Time In America, isnt'it?"
 - Raffaella Leone:
"Yes, again in collaboration with Sky we retrieve forty minutes (as a matter fact they recovered only about 25 minutes of scenes) which we rediscovered: for example, a part that Louise Fletcher, Oscar winner for ' one flew over the cuckoo's nest ' which in the final was gone. Let us be clear, though: not you'll close the movie will remain what did my father. We would however show, maybe in a projection to a festival, these unpublished so interesting. Maybe presented and illustrated by someone of Grosso, type Quentin Tarantino ".


Stuart Kaminsky receive an outline for the film the outline was 200 plus pages after additional dialogue reach over 400 pages long. Sergio Leone to release movie in 6 hrs in two parts after producers force Sergio Leone reduce hours of print. The cut was almost 6 hrs according to the original shooting script, but since original shooting script was change alot in terms of financial situation, Stuart Kaminsky claims There is three versions is release in the US, the first two versions got released got very bad reviews, and there is much longer Definitive Version that had never been shown in US.

According to the dvd comentary by Richard Schickel Sergio Leone printed 10 hours of film to assemble as the initial cut of the movie which he prepare with his editor Nino Baragli down to a almost 6 hrs cut at that time, he strongly considered releasing the movie in two and three hours parts each, producers refused in terms of budget (true facts) the original shooting script was change that some scenes were in the script were never filmed.

scenes which failed to appear in the 229 Min Cut on Canne Film Festival Premiere

Deleted Scenes

The boys mug a black musician and take his trumpet

Noodles in bed with Eve and Noodles holding a gun pointing at someone
http://www.moviegoods.com/movie_product.asp?sku=169689&master%5Fmovie%5Fid=7745

Young Noodles returns to his tenement, discovering his parents at prayer, and no dinner on the table

When his parents criticise him for being 'godless,' Noodles retorts that money is his god

A brief scene in the 1921 sequences, showing local ganglord Bugsy (James Russo) and his gang being arrested by the police for bootlegging while Noodles and his gang looked on. This would occur right before the gang's meeting with the Capuano Brothers at the harbor

The main importance of this scene would be to establish why Noodles' gang is working with the Capuanos. Dialogue from that scene indicates that Bugsy had been working with them, but since he and his thugs have now been jailed, Noodles and Co. have taken over his old job

Shots of a black limousine tailing Noodles

An ominous garbage truck, used as a link between 1933 and 1968

Senator Bailey arguing with an older Jimmy O'Donnell about a pension scam, just before Noodle's climactic meeting with the former

An opium-induced flashback of Noodles and the gang as children

Louise Fletcher as director of the Riversdale cemetery
http://www.littlereview.com/goddesslouise/articles/frayling.htm

Noodles' first meeting with Eve, and many other minor scenes with Eve. In the original shooting script, this occurs after his rape of Deborah (which happens at night, rather than early morning). A very drunk Noodles meets Eve in a speakeasy and goes to bed with her, calling her 'Deborah'

Scenes of Noodles watching Deborah performing a Busby Berkely musical scene at a nightclub, just before their date, as well as scenes from Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra (DVD's picture gallery feature includes an image of Elizabeth McGovern dressed as Cleopatra and holding a snake)

A scene of Noodles talking to the limousine driver before the date with Deborah. There is clear enmity between the two characters, highlighting the way in which Jewish gangsters are perceived by fellow Jews. The reason that this scene was cut was because producer Arnon Milchan, who played the chauffeur, felt that he should not have had such a noticeable role in the movie, and he did not want people to make a big deal out of his cameo

A long scene involving Police Chief Aiello (Danny Aiello) and his involvement with the strike breakers. (Some of the scene's dialogue was reworked into the brief interview with Aiello on the steps of the police station in the final version.) As a follow-up to this, a scene where the gang plans the famous baby-snatching scene with crooked politician Sharkey (Robert Harper) was also shot. Noodles wants to kill Aiello, but is convinced not to by Max and Sharkey

A brief scene during Noodles, Max, Carol, and Eve's vacation to Florida, where a lifeguard, having heard of the repeal of Prohibition, digs up a bottle of liquor from the beach and drinks it thirstily

A frisbee scene another part sequence

An older Carol (Tuesday Weld) revealing to Noodles that Max had syphilis. In the original shooting script, this scene (set between the beach scene described above, and Carol and Noodles' scene outside the Federal Reserve) also has Carol revealing the details of Eve's death to Noodles: "Oh, how she waited, but you never showed up... She shut the windows and locked the door, and nobody bothered to check. She was in there all the time, with her little capsules...there was nobody at the funeral but me." (The latter part of this scene may never have even been filmed, since Eve's death is depicted very differently in the final film)

These scenes were all shot, and the footage still exists

let's hope what else we got

I heard that TV Italian dubbed version clocking at 4 hrs 25 Min

check ot this page some interesting material about movie maybe some facts too

http://articles.dhwritings.com/m16a.html

http://articles.dhwritings.com/m10.html


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTOR'S FINAL CUT FUTURE DVD RELEASE
Post by: Juan Miranda on April 06, 2007, 05:51:24 AM
Zoinks! That's fantastic news, Derbent 5000, thanks for the info.  O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTOR'S FINAL CUT FUTURE DVD RELEASE
Post by: dave jenkins on April 06, 2007, 07:42:05 AM

An older Carol (Tuesday Weld) revealing to Noodles that Max had syphilis.
 
Might account for why Max always got so worked up about being called crazy.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTOR'S FINAL CUT FUTURE DVD RELEASE
Post by: Sanjuro on April 06, 2007, 09:27:51 AM
That's really great news. Now I have another hope in my life ;D.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTOR'S FINAL CUT FUTURE DVD RELEASE
Post by: Don Rogers on April 06, 2007, 11:10:11 AM
This would clean up some loose ends in the existing story -- mainly by answering the question, Where the heck did that Eve character come from?

On the other hand, it appears to do nothing at all to the loose end represented by Frankie Minaldi. We see him in a hospital lobby, and then -- nothing.

On the whole, I wouldn't classify most of these additions as in any way essential to the story, and it's an open question whether Leone would have wanted them 'restored' at this point.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTOR'S FINAL CUT FUTURE DVD RELEASE
Post by: Noodles_SlowStir on April 06, 2007, 01:19:45 PM
Derbent 5000 thanks for the posting.  Interesting information.  Last night I was going through a few books I had picked up and was going through a book I picked up sometime ago called Italian Filmmakers Self Portraits: A Selection Of Interviews by Jean A. Gili.  I decided to buy the book for a two part interview with Bernardo Bertolucci, but had forgotten there was a 1984 interview with Sergio Leone.  I haven't read the Frayling biography or the Adrian Martin BFI analysis yet.  I think the Gili interview is cited in both those books.  There were a couple of passages in the interview that I thought fit in with your thread so I thought I would post them.

Gili:
With the passing of the years had the final screenplay become very different from the first adaptation?

Leone:
Yes, it had changed a lot.  For example, there  were, shall we say, historical things in the 1968 part that were clearly understandable; with the passing of the years, they became less so.  We eliminated those.  Initially the film was supposed to begin in a completely different way.  I had written the first part with an American screenwriter who afterwards made a movie with Frankenheimer; he practically stole that first part by giving it to John Frankenheimer's
99 And 44/100 Dead.  The film was released and it was a bad film; there's this sequence in the beginning that I wanted to do, a cemetery along the Hudson River.  So, we changed the original screenplay a lot.  I first started writing with Medioli and Arcalli, and then Arcalli died and I worked with Benvenuti and De Bernardi.  I gave them all the childhood part, a little because I remembered a film that they had written with Franco Rossi, Friends For Life.  Ferrini did the last part, that is, he collaborated with us on the writing of the final script, but the treatment was already finished when he joined. (p 118)

Gili:
Did the long period of waiting and the screenplay's long development help the film?

Leone:
I don't know.  One thing is absolutely sure: the way it was conceived, the film was more than one film, it was two.  Grimaldi, in fact, was hoping it would become two long episodes, a bit like 1900, and this, for better or for worse, was something that remained.  Even after the cuts, it was constructed like that.  This was so true that I still have an hour more to add for TV, an hour already edited but not dubbed, that would make the film four and a half hours long.  Maybe you can tell where it was cut.... nevertheless, the film is rigorously structured.  Clearly, the film might be a little  bitter  to taste, since it is born out of nothingness, that is, out of the  limbo of opium.  There's this character who appears and who,  suddenly, in twenty minutes of the film, goes into oblivion and returns without the public knowing the characters' or story's background.  Then little by little there's a  long flashback to his childhood,  which to me is crucial, since childhood, of course, is the platform  for the entire story of this great friendship between two characters.  It's a little like Once Upon A Time In The West , a dance of death with a man plunging into oblivion .  If the film had a subtitle, it could also be called, " Once Upon A Time A Certain Kind Of Cinema".
It's a homage to things that have interested me; we find here a preoccupation with death which, after fifty, comes automatically.  I see that I've started reading the obituary columns now, though I never read them before.  (pp 118-119)


Gili:
How long did the shooting take?

Leone:

It lasted six or seven months, with a few short breaks and one month devoted to traveling.  In fact, Once Upon A Time In America is equal to two films.  If you consider that I shot Once Upon A Time In The West in  fourteen weeks, automatically I needed thirty for this one. (pp 119-120)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTOR'S FINAL CUT FUTURE DVD RELEASE
Post by: Kurug3n on April 06, 2007, 03:26:32 PM
does it have any commentary?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTOR'S FINAL CUT FUTURE DVD RELEASE RUMORS
Post by: PigsCantFly on April 06, 2007, 10:01:45 PM
Does anyone know anything about the strange moment where De Niro is being stalked by a frisbee, then the film cuts to him getting out of prison? I remember in Richard Schickel's DVD commentary he mentions that there may be footage cut here.


Title: Re: DIRECTOR'S FINAL CUT DVD RELEASE RUMORS
Post by: Banjo on April 07, 2007, 07:42:50 AM
At the end of filming, Leone had about 8 to 10 hours worth of footage. With his editor, Nino Baragli, Leone trimmed this down to about 6 hours, and wanted to release the film in two three-hour parts but producers refused
I don't know why they don't just go the whole hog and release the whole 6 hours or at least the longest possible version so long as there is an audio track to accompany the footage.
Or are they going the cynical route by extracting as much dosh from us as they can by releasing stuff in bits and bobs? :(


Title: Re: DIRECTOR'S FINAL CUT DVD RELEASE RUMORS
Post by: Leone Admirer on April 07, 2007, 08:15:48 AM
It might of been interesting as an experiment to put everything back in but as Sergio's no longer around whose not to say, having seen everything put in, he might have said take that out etc. To have them seperatly allows us to enjoy them restored without making a 'restorers cut' of the film rather like the 2006 Pat Garett Cut.


Title: Re: DIRECTOR'S FINAL CUT DVD RELEASE RUMORS
Post by: Banjo on April 07, 2007, 08:19:23 AM
But to quote Derbent 5000:-

"With his editor, Nino Baragli, Leone trimmed this down to about 6 hours, and wanted to release the film in two three-hour parts but producers refused"





Title: Re: NEW DIRECTOR'S FINAL CUT FUTURE DVD RELEASE RUMORS
Post by: Groggy on April 08, 2007, 05:31:08 AM
Does anyone know anything about the strange moment where De Niro is being stalked by a frisbee, then the film cuts to him getting out of prison? I remember in Richard Schickel's DVD commentary he mentions that there may be footage cut here.

That's just a weird assumption based on nothing.  The transition (frisbee to suitcase) as it is works fine - it's a very jarring moment, but it doesn't need to be anything deeper.

Keep in mind that the original post was taken from Wikipedia, which includes material contributed by me. . .  ;D So take it with a grain of salt.

The scene with Noodles pointing a gun in bed was probably taken from the deleted scene where Max and Carol barge into their hotel, saying they need to go to the beach.  This was covered by the scene in the hospital lobby in the final film, so I don't think it's necessary (unless of course I'm wrong.)

Also, do we really need to find out that Eve "killed herself"?  Because clearly she didn't, and Noodles knows about it. . . That would just make things much more confusing.  I know that was in the original script, but it definitely wasn't in the film.

And why does everyone assume Joe Pesci's character should have more screen time?  Read the outline of the original script in Frayling's bio, there wasn't anything other than the two scenes he was in (though he was called Esposito rather than Minaldi).  Also, while I'd like to see more of the Danny Aiello/Treat Williams subplot, it would only be if it doesn't make the film awkward.  I would like to see the intro to Eve (although, though her unannounced appearance makes little sense, somehow it never bothered me), some of the cut 1922 sequences, and the scene with older Max and O'Donnell, but otherwise, I'm fine with the film as it is.


Title: Re: DIRECTOR'S FINAL CUT DVD RELEASE RUMORS
Post by: Noodles_SlowStir on April 08, 2007, 08:28:03 AM
I always thought the frisbee was a rather cool transition back in time.  The scene is full of tension.  Noodles has this case of money.  He's been away and the area looks more run down.  He's really concerned about walking alone with that suitcase full of cash.  Then the frisbee unexpectedly comes swirling by; the suitcase transitions us back to when Noodles is released from prison.  All the other transitions are done so seamlessly.  Lights blending into other lights, old Noodles looking into the peephole becomes young Noodles.  This was one of the few segues that was kind of abrupt.  I think also it was effective because it sort of fits in with the dream quality of the film.  The slow pace, long held shots and the very abrupt actions from time to time.... like in dreams.  The other thing i was thinking about the frisbee was that maybe it could be viewed as metaphor.  The circular structure of the film....beginning and ending in the opium den.  Perhaps the frisbee as a spinning object in the air or space.....could be representative  of the way Leone destroys time for the viewer with the structure of the film.  Maybe that's reading too much into it and it could just be Leone's wicked sense of humor..... :)


Title: Re: DIRECTOR'S FINAL CUT DVD RELEASE RUMORS
Post by: Groggy on April 08, 2007, 03:22:03 PM
Good point Slowstir.  It's a weird, bizarre, surrealistic moment in a weird, bizarre, surrealistic film - why does it need to be part of a bigger scene?  This is a huge presumption on somebody's part.  ???


Title: Re: DIRECTOR'S FINAL CUT DVD RELEASE RUMORS
Post by: Noodles_SlowStir on April 08, 2007, 03:35:50 PM
In total agreement with you Groggy.  I thought Schickel was off track when he made that slight suggestion in the commentary.   What could be possibly missing from that scene?  Do we need to see kids walking around beforehand with a frisbee in their hands.  It has to be a sudden happening for it to be effective in the scene.  I guess because of the editing history of the film there's always that speculation and conjecture. 


Title: Re: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on April 10, 2007, 08:29:24 PM
It might of been interesting as an experiment to put everything back in but as Sergio's no longer around whose not to say, having seen everything put in, he might have said take that out etc. To have them seperatly allows us to enjoy them restored without making a 'restorers cut' of the film rather like the 2006 Pat Garett Cut.

check ot this page some intresting material about movie maybe some facts too

http://articles.dhwritings.com/m16a.html

http://articles.dhwritings.com/m10.html


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTOR'S CUT RUMORS
Post by: Leone Admirer on April 10, 2007, 08:39:21 PM
Thanks for those articles. Interesting read. The US Theatrical we basically taken out of Sergio's hands which is such a crying shame. I'm glad we have the 'Cannes version' on DVD now. An editor I worked with is convinced that he's seen a longer version then the Cannes cut. Not sure if thats true though...


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTOR'S CUT RUMORS
Post by: Leone Admirer on April 10, 2007, 08:41:19 PM
Hang on I'm confused, they are restoring the footage back in to a new version? Another article posted here said about a new DVD release with the footage avaliable sepertatly not restored back in. The thing is if Leone and Baragli did this six hour cut then there must be a version of this somewhere. In editing it works like this. You first have the work print which collects all the footage together so the editor and the director have something to work from. The next version to be made is called the directors cut. This is the version of the movie the director feels is his and how he sees it. This is then often screened to the studios and producers who make their own versions till a version is made which both sides agree on. So in theory the 6 hour version would be Leone's directors cut which also means there must be a copy of this to go back to when creating the new restoration version. If they can find this they they should be able to use this a guide. Of couse I would like to see how they're going to do the dubbing (i.e impressionists or the original cast)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTOR'S CUT RUMORS
Post by: Banjo on April 11, 2007, 05:02:06 AM
Hang on I'm confused, they are restoring the footage back in to a new version? Another article posted here said about a new DVD release with the footage avaliable sepertatly not restored back in. The thing is if Leone and Baragli did this six hour cut then there must be a version of this somewhere. In editing it works like this. You first have the work print which collects all the footage together so the editor and the director have something to work from. The next version to be made is called the directors cut. This is the version of the movie the director feels is his and how he sees it. This is then often screened to the studios and producers who make their own versions till a version is made which both sides agree on. So in theory the 6 hour version would be Leone's directors cut which also means there must be a copy of this to go back to when creating the new restoration version. If they can find this they they should be able to use this a guide. Of couse I would like to see how they're going to do the dubbing (i.e impressionists or the original cast)
Very interesting insight into this part of the  filmaking process LA O0

Do you think it's likely that the directors 6 hour version would contain the Morricone score throughout?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTOR'S CUT RUMORS
Post by: Leone Admirer on April 11, 2007, 05:34:43 AM
In editing a temp score was used. As the score for OUAITA was written and presumably recorded before filming I suspect they would have used that. Of course there's also the possibility that the six hour version could have been the work print. For instance, Alien 3, the new version on the DVD is the work print that for years was mistaken as a directors cut. In the early 90's a Workprint of Blade Runner surfaced before the directors cut. Workprints are never to be seen by the public, they are like the outline of a novel full of notations. The film is covered in 'scaffold' which will be taken down by the time the film is made into the directors cut.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTOR'S CUT RUMORS
Post by: Kurug3n on April 11, 2007, 02:24:35 PM
Do you think it's likely that the directors 6 hour version would contain the Morricone score throughout?

I wonder if Morricone has seen the 6 hour version of OUATIA ???


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTOR'S CUT RUMORS
Post by: Silenzio on April 11, 2007, 04:49:59 PM
I wonder if Morricone has seen the 6 hour version of OUATIA ???

Prob'ly not.  The score was mostly pre-composed, wasn't it?  That's what James Woods said.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTOR'S CUT RUMORS
Post by: Kurug3n on April 11, 2007, 05:37:02 PM
Prob'ly not.  The score was mostly pre-composed, wasn't it?  That's what James Woods said.

Yeah it was but i was just wondering if him and sergio were just hanging out and saw the 6 hour version.


Title: Re: Original Director's Cut
Post by: cigar joe on May 03, 2007, 05:08:19 PM
kick start test


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTOR'S CUT RUMORS
Post by: Kurug3n on May 23, 2007, 11:11:57 PM
Thanks for those articles. Interesting read. The US Theatrical we basically taken out of Sergio's hands which is such a crying shame. I'm glad we have the 'Cannes version' on DVD now. An editor I worked with is convinced that he's seen a longer version then the Cannes cut. Not sure if thats true though...

who would lie about that??  :o


Title: Re: Original Director's Cut
Post by: Leone Admirer on May 25, 2007, 02:37:41 PM
I'm tempted to close this thread as I seem to keep getting notification emails when no new damn message has been posted. If i close it hopefully this won't happen anymore. Of course if it was to stop now and only start again when someone posts something thats not just a quote I would great appreciate it  :)


Title: Re: Original Director's Cut
Post by: Leone Admirer on May 28, 2007, 05:06:57 AM
Ok one more time then I'm closing the thread...


Title: Re: Original Director's Cut
Post by: Poggle on May 28, 2007, 08:59:31 PM
Heehee.


Title: DIFFERENT VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on June 08, 2007, 12:23:31 AM
I read the script on www.dailyscript.com (http://www.dailyscript.com) is little bit different from the final draft of movie plus it got some deleted scenes that movie doesn't include, the dialogue little bit different from the original movie chek it out http://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/Once_Upon_A_Time_In_America.pdf (http://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/Once_Upon_A_Time_In_America.pdf)


Title: Re: Original Director's Cut
Post by: PowerRR on June 14, 2007, 11:07:41 AM
Hey.

Shut up.


Title: Re: Original Director's Cut
Post by: Banjo on June 14, 2007, 05:13:33 PM
 ;D

No need to put a "sticky" on this thread!


Title: Re: Original Director's Cut
Post by: Noodles_SlowStir on June 14, 2007, 05:14:34 PM
No it seems to stick already on its own..... ;D


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Banjo on June 14, 2007, 05:30:49 PM
Well it made it easy for me to merge it with an older duplicate thread. O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Man with no dame on June 14, 2007, 05:36:57 PM
This IS a thread?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Noodles_SlowStir on June 14, 2007, 05:44:21 PM
yeah i guess so...kind of a loose thread..... ;D


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: PowerRR on June 21, 2007, 07:39:56 PM
Will someone please lock this piece of crap?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: mal247 on June 22, 2007, 09:00:44 AM
Many of us would like to see the unpublished footage either as extras or incorporated into a revised cut of the film.  Some may even like it if the film was remade with possibly Russell Crowe as Max, Sean Penn as Noodles, Jennifer Connelly as the older Deborah and directed by De Niro or Eastwood, with all the implausible bits made plausible.

However much we may want to see the unpublished footage, regrettably it's not going to happen by our just talking about it.

 :) 


Title: VHS TAPE VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on June 26, 2007, 01:22:46 AM
take a look at this french VHS cover the longest version of Once Upon A Time In Ameica

http://aram.free.fr/covers/images/il_etait_une_fois_en_amerique.jpg


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Banjo on June 26, 2007, 02:39:10 AM
Will someone please lock this piece of crap?
Cool it please,afterall you don't have to look at this thread even if its not really progressing anywhere quickly. :)

Derbent,do you have more details of the extra footage on the French video tape?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Poggle on July 09, 2007, 04:39:11 PM
If Leone had to cut 50 minutes that he felt were IMPORTANT then wouldn't the footage being put back in be Leone's original vision?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: mal247 on July 13, 2007, 12:08:01 PM
It has been reported in other threads that, at the end of filming, Leone had 10 hours worth of footage. With his editor, Nino Baragli, Leone trimmed this down to about 6 hours, and wanted to release the film in two three-hour parts.

The producers refused (partly due to the commercial failure of Bertolucci's two-part Novecento) and Leone was forced to further shorten the length of his film, resulting in a completed (i.e. scored, dubbed, edited, etc.) film of 229 minutes.

Leone has said that ideally, he would have liked the film to be "between four hours ten minutes and four hours twenty-five minutes" (250 minutes to 265 minutes), and that such a cut would mainly have served to restore scenes developing Noodles' relationships with women.

Many people have said that Leone had a vision of the film from the start; he could act out every part and his vision did not change.  The documents I have read and commonsense contradict this.  Various parts of the film differ from the screenplay.  The actors, writers and even Grey will had had an input and unlike some directors, Leone would listen to the views of others.  Some scenes resembled scenes in other movies and had to be altered.  Money and time prohibited the filming of other scenes.

I would love to see the deleted scenes either on their own, integrated into a new cut or even a complete remake.  However some of the unpublished scenes are pointless - Eve dying from a drug overdose/broken heart etc. Others would no doubt make the film less puzzling or more appealing to a new viewer - the arrest of Bugsy, scenes with Jimmy, Police Chief Aiello, Eve etc but it is doubtful whether the benefit can be justified by the cost. In any event it's a pretty good film just the way it is.

One option would be to include with new DVDs a booklet, describing the history of the film and giving various explanations for some of the scenes which new viewers may find confusing. Plus, if possible, some of the unpublished footage in its raw form - who needs dialogue anyway?

Been catching up lately - A Bronx Tale and Mean Streets scheduled for this weekend, 1900 in 2 weeks' time, followed by Frayling's book and revisiting the fistful of dollars trilogy .


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: mal247 on July 20, 2007, 04:42:53 AM
Many thanks for these links Derbent. 
The Williamsburg bridge is in the background of one of the links.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbPSqE48PHQ


(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa192/msb247/wbridge2.jpg)



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: tucumcari bound on July 21, 2007, 12:12:04 AM
I love that picture! The black and white looks great.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: rot66 on July 28, 2007, 05:03:02 AM
I remember talk on the old board that there was a cut scene shown on Italian TV, that some had on tape. It showed McGovern acting as Cleopatra on stage while Noodles watching. Has anyone found this on the net? YouTube or somewhere else?

Would love to get my hands on this, preferably a high quality version, but even a low quality YouTube video would be great.


Tor


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: rot66 on August 12, 2007, 10:53:23 AM
Thanks! Nice one. Anything from this film is of great interest to me.


On a strange memory flashback to the 80s, I suddenly remembered that there was a music video with
the German band Modern Talking that used bits from OUATIA... Found it here in so so quality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ect3VoEUJn8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ect3VoEUJn8)


Tor


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: mal247 on August 12, 2007, 12:22:08 PM
On a strange memory flashback to the 80s, I suddenly remembered that there was a music video with the German band Modern Talking that used bits from OUATIA... Found it here in so so quality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ect3VoEUJn8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ect3VoEUJn8)

Tor

Thank you rot66 - line dancing to Modern Talking (From Coast To Coast and Heart Of An Angel) is very popular at a nearby venue but it's the first time I've ever seen this.  Leone's film certainly makes a lasting impression worldwide.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Kurug3n on August 16, 2007, 11:42:16 PM
I dont know i mean i really really wish it was true but Leone Commentary?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: mal247 on August 26, 2007, 05:21:12 AM
Many thanks Derbent.  We can only hope that the anniversary is marked with something special and I shall certainly be at the front of the queue if anything is released.
 :)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stamper on December 01, 2007, 04:15:56 PM
Wow, I'm sure LeoneNut is prepping the final cut already in his mind  O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on December 02, 2007, 06:26:02 PM
A1, that will be interesting. I expect that if there is an official new release coming, it will include the missing scenes as supplements only, not re-integrated back into the movie. Last I heard, that was the philosophy the Leone family was operating under.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on February 06, 2008, 07:40:19 PM
Well spotted!  O0

I wonder though . . . the current widescreen DVD is already called a "Special Edition." Will this new release actually be something new, or just the current SE repackaged?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Kurug3n on February 06, 2008, 08:53:13 PM
Well spotted!  O0

I wonder though . . . the current widescreen DVD is already called a "Special Edition." Will this new release actually be something new, or just the current SE repackaged?

Could it possibly be the HD version of the film ???


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on February 07, 2008, 12:26:03 PM
I wouldn't get my hopes up. A lot of the titles announced are clearly re-issues of current editions (Goodfellas, the Film Noir box sets, etc). I don't doubt that a new edition of OUATIA is coming, just that it may not arrive until after they first re-issue the old one.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stamper on February 10, 2008, 09:37:00 AM
This guy is dumb. He is saying a movie shot on 35mm 20 years ago cannot look as good as a movie shot on 35mm today.

It's like saying that someone making a drawing 20 years ago, cannot scan on digital as good as the same drawing drawn today. idiot.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: moviesceleton on February 10, 2008, 12:49:44 PM
This guy is dumb. He is saying a movie shot on 35mm 20 years ago cannot look as good as a movie shot on 35mm today.

It's like saying that someone making a drawing 20 years ago, cannot scan on digital as good as the same drawing drawn today. idiot.
No, I think he's totally right.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stamper on February 12, 2008, 03:08:09 PM
This guys is stupid. A 35mm frame is 4 to 8 times superior in resolution to 1080p video, HE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT AND HIS ON DRUGS OR PAID OFF BY THE BLU RAY ALLIANCE TO SPEAK TRASH.
Even Leone movies, shot in poors man cinemascope, ARE TWO TIMES THE RESOLUTION OF 1080P VIDEO SO THEY SHOULD LOOK AS GOOD AS ANY OTHER MOVIE FROM RECENT YEARS IF THE JOB IS DONE RIGHT.



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: moviesceleton on February 13, 2008, 04:25:03 AM
This guys is stupid. A 35mm frame is 4 to 8 times superior in resolution to 1080p video, HE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT AND HIS ON DRUGS OR PAID OFF BY THE BLU RAY ALLIANCE TO SPEAK TRASH.
Even Leone movies, shot in poors man cinemascope, ARE TWO TIMES THE RESOLUTION OF 1080P VIDEO SO THEY SHOULD LOOK AS GOOD AS ANY OTHER MOVIE FROM RECENT YEARS IF THE JOB IS DONE RIGHT.


May be, but older films usually have unremovable scratches and marks...


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: moviesceleton on April 01, 2008, 04:38:19 AM
No further news from Warner Bros but according to another source, work on the 25th Anniversary Edition started in September 2005.  This 314 minute final cut adds several scenes, how Noodles met Eve, the arrest of Bugsy, a black limousine and Noodles' family. Other important additions are the explanations of the frisbee scene and the garbage truck scene.  There is also an alternate ending to the movie.

Disc contents:

Final cut version of movie - running time 314 minutes
Commentaries: Sergio Leone (in Italian with subtitles in English),
James Woods, Robert De Niro, Arnon Milchan, Richard Schickel
Special "Behind The Scenes" featurette including
Casting and Locations
Deleted Scenes
Alternate Ending
Leone: Art of Direction
Soundtrack
Sergio Leone: Once Upon a Time
A look inside Harry Grey's The Hoods
Characters & Bios
You mean the "source" on IMDb? It's talked here: http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=3582.0 Unfortunately it's most probably a rumor, more specifically a hoax. I saw the original post on IMDb once (it's fallen over the edge long time ago), the poster claimed he had been to some event where Milchan announced this, that's why he couldn't provide any further evidents. I so hope this would be true, but probably isn't. But we will see next year.

PS. That blu-ray cover is just a wet dream, right?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Banjo on April 01, 2008, 06:50:18 AM
Unfortunately it's most probably a rumor, more specifically a hoax.

The "Sergio Leone commentary" confirms that this just has to be a hoax.

Shame. :(


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: moviesceleton on April 01, 2008, 10:57:16 AM
The "Sergio Leone commentary" confirms that this just has to be a hoax.

Shame. :(
I think it was supposed to be joined from interviews or something like that.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on April 01, 2008, 03:35:28 PM
It's gotta be a hoax. The footage for those extra scenes exists, but it has been the desire of the Leone estate not to reintegrate them back into the whole. On some future release we should see the additional material, but as stand-alone extras.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Banjo on April 02, 2008, 06:24:40 AM
If there was some existing footage of a Leone interview i'm sure we'd already know about it but such footage wouldn't work as part of a audio commentary track and would be better served as a separate special feature. 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on April 02, 2008, 09:55:23 AM
I've said this before: if this were true, I'm not sure how interested I'd be in buying it. Five+ hours is pushing it, even for me, particularly when the deleted scenes are of unknown quality.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on April 02, 2008, 10:41:08 AM
I would think it unusual for a director or the family of a deceased director to have rights over parts of a movie he has worked on but we will probably find out a bit more in due course.
I only know what has been reported in this thread. See Derbent 5000's post on the first page.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on April 04, 2008, 12:02:25 AM
Bugsy's arrest, Noodles' family, the young gang acting as normal kids, how Noodles met Eve, subsequent scenes with Eve, the older gang's humor and interaction with the public, Noodles relationships with women could be important scenes and if they could be seamlessly incorporated into the movie, the end result could be fantastic.  The nearer we can get to Leone's vision the better.
But Leone's vision may have included suppressing some or all of those scenes.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on April 04, 2008, 11:19:09 AM
I would like the scene where Bugsy gets arrested, because it would explain why the gang is hired by the Capuanos, and why Bugsy is so keen on killing them later on. Maybe the Eve scenes too. But otherwise, I think I could live without most of teh cut footage.

The scene with Noodles in bed with Eve, pointing a gun, was another scene that might not jive with the film as such. Frayling recounts this scene in STDWD, saying that Noodles and Eve are together (I believe this is the scene where Eve reveals she wears "falsies") and Max and Carol burst in, telling them it's time to go to the beach.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: MatViola on April 05, 2008, 09:58:20 PM
In Oreste De Fornari's book on Leone there's a chapter entitled 'Leone on Leone' in which the director discusses each of his films. Writing in 1988 about the different versions of Once Upon a Time in America Leone said, "Then there is the very long one that has never been been edited and which lasts fifty minutes longer. Four and a half hours. But we rejected the idea of two parts on TV. It is so intricate that it has to be done in one evening. And besides, let's be honest: this one is my version. The other perhaps explained things more clearly and it could have been done on TV in two or three parts. But the version that I prefer is this one, that bit of reclusiveness is just what I like about it."

At one point Leone may have wanted to reinsert those missing scenes, but it sounds to me like he later changed his mind, and this could explain why his daughter has expressed reluctance about putting them back into the film.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on April 06, 2008, 04:26:29 AM
Thanks for that information  O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on April 07, 2008, 06:06:47 PM
Wasn't there at one point a plan--subsequently abandoned, I gather--to produce a longer, TV cut of OUATIA, to air after the theatrical cut had finished its run? In that case, there would have been two different versions of the film, both sanctioned by Leone, but intended for different markets. Something like this now exists with the longer and shorter cuts of The Last Emperor, out on DVD from Criterion. The longer cut is being called the TV cut, and the original theatrical cut is being called the Director's Cut (and apparently, Bertolucci prefers the shorter version).


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: LITTLE BIG MAN on June 26, 2008, 08:48:04 AM
Sorry didn’t t want to rain on everyone’s parade - but I spoke to a nice lady recently at Warner Brothers West Coast Home Entertainment Dept. (SNR EXEC) she stated that she had heard nothing regarding a new Directors Cut DVD release of OUATIA.  She knew all about all WB’s forthcoming Special Editions and OUATIA wasn’t one of them!  Also she had been at the Venice Film Festival and stated she would have heard something.  Sorry guys & girls but that’s what she told me.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on June 26, 2008, 11:19:54 AM
I'm perfectly happy with what I have at the moment, so no rain for me.  O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Banjo on June 30, 2008, 12:19:45 PM
But thats a very old documentary Derbent but i'm hoping that  Little Big Mans source maybe wrong as it would be out of this world to see an extra two hours plus of Leone footage. :(


Title: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on April 07, 2010, 02:41:49 PM
Check this out

There's few evidence that longer version as two part movie original four and a half hour is exist  

http://www.lumiere2009.org/uk/actualites.html?actu_id=319

Arnon Milchan quote  "There's another half hour we're planning to put back and come with the full director's version. This time I know what to do" (he meant that is closest Sergio Leone intended version)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YEPHkP6DAk

Few days go I went to Central Library and read Sergio Leone Biography "Something To Do With Death" by Christopher Frayling also says that
270 Minutes is definitive version (But it's only rummors no one knew original version except director himself)

post you comments and tell what you think about this


Title: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on April 07, 2010, 02:54:52 PM
Arnon Milchan says in the documentary about puting scenes back in, and also showing six cans of scenes with the each name on it, and says that makes full director's version, that means scenes allready been dubbed long ago, but he didn't mention about new transfer about color restoration anything like that, but i think personally to restore movie like this carefully frame by frame takes years in terms of running time, to restore not only additional scenes but to restore movie it self from start to finish for scratches, dirts, grain, to give movie descent quality better than first transfer to make fans happy

Arnon Milchan didn't mention anything about release just said "This Time I Know What to do" according to his interview hopefully will see release maybe in the public theatres and possibly on Bluray

Warner Home Video released DVD in 2003 to make movie fans finally happy to see with descent picture and sound

i hope will hear something new soon about future release DVD/Blu-ray

post and share you thoughts and comments


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Banjo on April 07, 2010, 06:05:45 PM
The "Once Upon A Time" is a very old documentary Derbent so i'm not overly optimistic that anything's gonna come out in a hurry.But in view of the new extra's on the GBU  Blueray disc we can be hopeful as i see no reason why all the scenes that weren't included on Leone's intended cut shouldn't be up to the quality of the current version and therefore should be incorporated into a new dvd.


Title: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on June 01, 2010, 11:21:31 PM
Basically the longer definitive version of Once Upon A Time In America called TV version and has been show on Italian and German Television approx 4 hours and 30 something min for example that Bernardo Bertolucci extended version of The Last Emperor TV version 218 min, 160 min theatrical Ingmar Bergman Fanny And Alexander TV version 312 min, theatrical 188 min and Scenes From A Marriage TV version 299 min, 155 min theatrical and Wolfgang Petersen of Das Boot 209 min(called director's version) mini series 330 min, the 293 min uncut TV Version



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Derbent 5000 on June 01, 2010, 11:46:22 PM
but one thing i just don't understand the Lumiere Inst claims The film was originally planned as two sections, to be screened several days apart and totalling four and a half hours. after producers objected and Leone reduced it to a single screening of three hours forty minutes.

http://www.lumiere2009.org/uk/actualites.html?actu_id=319

so what is that telling us that scenes were allready dubbed and edited

what are you guys think about that?

share you thoughts and comments


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 25, 2011, 11:16:09 PM
Certain things are unexplained 229-minute version. Some examples:

1. We don't know when or how Noodles received the invitation to Secretary Bailey's party; we just see him telling Deborah about it.
2. Frankie (the Joe Pesci character) mysteriously appears at the end of the scene where Noodles & Maxie are in the hospital with Jimmy and then decide to go on a Florida vacation together. We never see the significance of Frankie's appearance.
3. Eve kind of appears out of nowhere, ie. we never see where Noodles meets her

I have heard that many of the scenes with Eve are among those that were cut.

So yes, I would love to see the deleted scenes.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Dust Devil on January 26, 2011, 02:47:43 AM
2. Frankie (the Joe Pesci character) mysteriously appears at the end of the scene where Noodles & Maxie are in the hospital with Jimmy and then decide to go on a Florida vacation together. We never see the significance of Frankie's appearance.

I often wondered 'bout that as a kid.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 26, 2011, 05:54:04 AM
I often wondered 'bout that as a kid.


yeah, I am sure that there is a significance to it that would be explained in the director's cut.

 And the scene with the old Noodles walking with the suitcase and the frisbee mysteriously flying over his head is quite possibly part of a cut scene as well.

Another thing I found strange is that once Noodles gets out of prison, he immediately begins going on jobs with the group, and voicing his opinion when he disagrees with them, and opening his mouth to Frankie, a big mobster. You would think that if he just got out of prison and suddenly sees that his buddies have been successful gangsters, that a) he would shut his mouth and not argue with their methods; and b) there would be some discussion and "practice" for them to discuss business with him, for him to practice shooting a gun, etc. It seems kinda weird to me that one night Noodles gets out of prison, and immediately he is doing hardcore jobs with them as if he is an experienced member, and arguing with them as if he is an equal member.

Yeah, even in the 229-minute version -- which I believe is one of the greatest movies of all time -- there are several instances where you can tell some scenes are missing. I would absolutely love to see the version Leone intended to release, which according to Christopher Frayling was between 250 - 265 minutes.

(In fact, they shot something like 6-10 hours of footage; Leone originally intended to release it  as a 6 hour/ 2-part movie, which the studio refused).

YOU DON'T MESS WITH A MASTER!


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Cusser on January 26, 2011, 06:45:31 AM
Certain things are unexplained 229-minute version. Some examples:

3. Eve kind of appears out of nowhere, ie. we never see where Noodles meets her

Noodles "met" Eve at the bank during the robbery, made a small deposit !!!  And they say that early withdrawal results in loss of interest - TRUE !!!


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on January 26, 2011, 08:16:22 AM
2. Frankie (the Joe Pesci character) mysteriously appears at the end of the scene where Noodles & Maxie are in the hospital with Jimmy and then decide to go on a Florida vacation together. We never see the significance of Frankie's appearance.

The detailed script outline Frayling provides indicates that Frankie had no additional scenes than what's in the finished film. His brief appearance at the hospital just seems a metaphor of the Mob coming between Noodles and Max, or foreshadowing of what's to come. I like how people read so much into this brief and, to me, obvious scene.

Quote
3. Eve kind of appears out of nowhere, ie. we never see where Noodles meets her

I have heard that many of the scenes with Eve are among those that were cut.

Yes, although one of the scenes would effect the finish film's continuity and may not have been filmed.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on January 26, 2011, 08:16:53 AM
Noodles "met" Eve at the bank during the robbery, made a small deposit !!!  And they say that early withdrawal results in loss of interest - TRUE !!!

That's Carol not Eve.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Dust Devil on January 26, 2011, 09:25:03 AM
It's perfectly understandable people are interested about everything shown in the movie Groggy.

As for Frankie's appearance in the hospital: the way he acts, it's not so hard to decipher Frankie had something going on behind Noodles' back, it's just that we'd like to see what, and when, and how much. ;)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Dust Devil on January 26, 2011, 09:27:33 AM
Another thing I found strange is that once Noodles gets out of prison, he immediately begins going on jobs with the group, and voicing his opinion when he disagrees with them, and opening his mouth to Frankie, a big mobster. You would think that if he just got out of prison and suddenly sees that his buddies have been successful gangsters, that a) he would shut his mouth and not argue with their methods; and b) there would be some discussion and "practice" for them to discuss business with him, for him to practice shooting a gun, etc. It seems kinda weird to me that one night Noodles gets out of prison, and immediately he is doing hardcore jobs with them as if he is an experienced member, and arguing with them as if he is an equal member.

Same here, I thought about that too more than once - it isn't very believable.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Dust Devil on January 26, 2011, 09:28:16 AM
Most OUATIA fans would love to see the deleted scenes but there are no new statements from the people with the power to make something happen.  I've not seen anything from the studios, Milchan's promise was made in 1999 and Raffaella Leone's interview was in September 2006.

Details of the deleted and unfilmed scenes are in the shooting script and this doesn't contain scenes explaining how Noodles received the invitation to Secretary Bailey's party or the mysterious appearance of Frankie at the hospital.  The frisbee is just an imaginative visual link between scenes, with the misleading undertone that something bad is going to happen to Noodles.

Viewing the deleted scenes would however tell us a lot about Eve and her relationship with Noodles, Noodles' family and early poverty, why Bugsy hates the gang so much and important parts of the story.  For example a black limousine tailing Noodles at the cemetary, Noodles standing near the gates to the rear of Bailey's mansion and watching as the same black limousine explodes.  Jimmy's conversation with Bailey letting us know about his involvement with the unions, that he has made mistakes and how he would benefit from taking his own life.

Throughout the movie, Leone uses imaginative visual links to tie scenes together.  If all the scenes in the script had been included in the movie it would have been uncomfortably long for a single film but the removal of some scenes has weakened some of these visual links.  Examples:

The gang go swimming in a car and the car disappearing under the water is linked to a burnt-out car being sprayed with foam. In the original script, the car disappears under the water and is linked to Noodles' head surfacing in a Turkish baths.

Noodles, standing near an oriental building, watches a garbage truck disappear into the distance (driven on the left hand side of the road), a procession of old cars passes by and links to Noodles' arrival at the opium den.  Noodles watching the procession of cars was to be linked to a procession in Chinatown which would then have more easily linked to the opium den scenes.


O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on January 26, 2011, 02:31:12 PM
As for Frankie's appearance in the hospital: the way he acts, it's not so hard to decipher Frankie had something going on behind Noodles' back, it's just that we'd like to see what, and when, and how much. ;)
Wouldja believe . . . they're conspiring to cut Noodles out and set him up to look like a stoolie?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Dust Devil on January 27, 2011, 02:13:25 AM
Wouldja believe . . . they're conspiring to cut Noodles out and set him up to look like a stoolie?

Either that, or Frankie is a sanitary engineer.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 27, 2011, 05:03:50 AM
Same here, I thought about that too more than once - it isn't very believable.

Indeed, it is not very believable as it is; but perhaps the cut scenes explain some of this. Maybe there are some scenes of Noodles going on other jobs with them and being "indoctrinated" as a full member before he starts opening his mouth to Maxie and Frankie...?

btw, some people have cited the scripts as provided by Frayling as the full shooting script, but I wonder if the footage was actually shot from those scripts, or whether those were just early versions of scripts that were later changed? Or does anyone know whether there is a script out there that contains the full 6-10 hours of film that was shot?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Cusser on January 28, 2011, 06:46:33 PM
That's Carol not Eve.

Ooops !!! Now I have an excuse to watch it again, it's been about two years !!!  Thanks !!!


Title: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on March 11, 2011, 02:34:46 PM
Once Upon A Time In America getting extended running time closest to the director's version

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=6007

http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/archives/new_cut_of_sergio_leones_once_upon_a_time_in_america_on_the_way_with_40/#

only 25 minutes has been reinserted instead of promised 40


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 11, 2011, 03:08:03 PM
Once Upon A Time In America getting Extended Version check this out.....

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=6007

http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/archives/new_cut_of_sergio_leones_once_upon_a_time_in_america_on_the_way_with_40/#

if this is indeed happening, this is the absolute greatest news I have heard in a loooong time. YEEEEHAH!!!

btw, I never even knew that the movie has been released on Blu Ray till I read these links. I am wondering if anyone can tell me whether the Blu Ray has any features that the regular dvd does not have? Specifically, does the Blu Ray have a Frayling commentary?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 11, 2011, 03:15:38 PM
I see it says that Leone's kids have acquired the Italian rights to the film; does this mean this new release will only be released in Italian? That would suuuuuuuuuuuuuck.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on March 12, 2011, 02:35:18 AM
if this is indeed happening, this is the absolute greatest news I have heard in a loooong time. YEEEEHAH!!!

That might have just made my day!

btw, I never even knew that the movie has been released on Blu Ray till I read these links. I am wondering if anyone can tell me whether the Blu Ray has any features that the regular dvd does not have? Specifically, does the Blu Ray have a Frayling commentary?

Same as DVD


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 12, 2011, 06:16:33 PM
btw, earlier in this thread we were discussing whether the scene of Frankie walking into the elevator and the frisbee scene were part of larger, cut scenes. Well I just looked up the OUATIA chapter in STDWD again; Frayling has a script there from 1981. Though parts of it differ from the final script, those 2 parts are as is. So I guess they were indeed intended that way and never meant to be part of any bigger scene


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Shambaby on March 12, 2011, 10:12:00 PM
OMG!   I am on the OUTIA wavelength.  What else would possess me to check this board out today!  My dream will finally come true!


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on March 13, 2011, 10:41:02 PM
I'm intrigued, but I'm also of the school of thought that OUATIA is long (and complete) enough.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 14, 2011, 03:18:00 AM
I'm intrigued, but I'm also of the school of thought that OUATIA is long (and complete) enough.

I don't, and if you care to know why, I explained it at length on the bottom post on p. 1 of this thread http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=10151.0  ;)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on March 14, 2011, 09:08:40 AM
I'm not saying the missing footage isn't of interest, but frankly I'd rather have it available separately as part of the special features. The 229-minute version is good enough as it is, even if a few minor points bug me.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on March 14, 2011, 09:32:47 AM
btw, earlier in this thread we were discussing whether the scene of Frankie walking into the elevator and the frisbee scene were part of larger, cut scenes. Well I just looked up the OUATIA chapter in STDWD again; Frayling has a script there from 1981. Though parts of it differ from the final script, those 2 parts are as is. So I guess they were indeed intended that way and never meant to be part of any bigger scene

That's what I've been saying!


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on March 14, 2011, 10:45:53 AM
I'm not saying the missing footage isn't of interest, but frankly I'd rather have it available separately as part of the special features. The 229-minute version is good enough as it is, even if a few minor points bug me.
I disagree, mostly because of the way Leone shaped the film. The long flashback structure allows for more episodes to be incorporated, possibly an infinite number, if such were theoretically possible. Another film that seems incapable of ever being too long is GBU: if tomorrow it was discovered that the long lost scene with Blondie and the whore had been discovered, I'd say, Get it in there. And anything else that comes along. The more adventures the better.

By contrast, I wouldn't add anything more back into OUATITW: it is perfect the way it is, has achieved its optimal length. Same with FAFDM.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 14, 2011, 11:39:27 AM
That's what I've been saying!

Indeed, Groggy.  I give you props once in a while too!  ;)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 14, 2011, 11:40:43 AM
I disagree, mostly because of the way Leone shaped the film. The long flashback structure allows for more episodes to be incorporated, possibly an infinite number, if such were theoretically possible. Another film that seems incapable of ever being too long is GBU: if tomorrow it was discovered that the long lost scene with Blondie and the whore had been discovered, I'd say, Get it in there. And anything else that comes along. The more adventures the better.

By contrast, I wouldn't add anything more back into OUATITW: it is perfect the way it is, has achieved its optimal length. Same with FAFDM.

I am very happy that Leone chose not to use Clint's scenes with the women in FAFDM and GBU. Woulda had no place in there  :)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 14, 2011, 11:45:56 AM
I'm not saying the missing footage isn't of interest, but frankly I'd rather have it available separately as part of the special features. The 229-minute version is good enough as it is, even if a few minor points bug me.

Well you'll always have the option of viewing the 229-minute version separately.
I'm happy I'll have the opportunity to view the new 4.5 hour version as well. That's the version the Master wanted, and I can't wait to get my hands on it  :)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on March 14, 2011, 01:05:55 PM
I disagree, mostly because of the way Leone shaped the film. The long flashback structure allows for more episodes to be incorporated, possibly an infinite number, if such were theoretically possible.

Could is not the same as should.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on March 14, 2011, 01:08:02 PM
Also, do we know definitively what scenes from the script were actually filmed? (I guess we'll soon find out.) I have a hard time believing that the extra scenes with Danny Aiello's character, or Carol telling Noodles about Eve's suicide, would fit into the narrative.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 14, 2011, 01:23:25 PM
Also, do we know definitively what scenes from the script were actually filmed? (I guess we'll soon find out.) I have a hard time believing that the extra scenes with Danny Aiello's character, or Carol telling Noodles about Eve's suicide, would fit into the narrative.

bottom paragraph on p. 458 of STDWD:

"(Leone's) ideal running time would have been 'between four hours ten minutes and four hours twenty-five minutes'" but he very reluctantly excised between forty-five and fifty minutes worth of 'significant material.' "


Frayling indeed goes on to mention the specific scenes that were cut:

-- Background on the young Noodles, his impoverished family, and his rejection of their religious devotion
-- "certain visual leitmotifs - a black limo tailing Noodles, an ominous garbage truck"
-- Senator Bailey's dispute with the elderly Jimmy O'Donnell over the pensions scam
-- Noodles' opium-rich flashback to himself and the gang as children
-- all of Louise Fletcher's performance as the director of Riverdale cemetery
-- most of Darlanne Fleugel's as Eve (including her meeting with Noodles, and his revelation that she sports 'falsies')
-- "some of Elizabeth McGovern's work (including her Busby Berkely and Shakespeare routines)
-- Carol telling Noodles about Max's syphilis from her rest home


Additionally, Frayling says that Leone "had ten hours of usable footage in the can." (id.)  However, if the 40 minutes that will now be restored are indeed those scenes which Leone wanted in but "very reluctantly" had to excise, then we can know what to expect.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on March 14, 2011, 03:10:34 PM
I'm not saying the missing footage isn't of interest, but frankly I'd rather have it available separately as part of the special features. The 229-minute version is good enough as it is, even if a few minor points bug me.

Leone wanted this extra 40mins in it and I would definitely like to see it the way he intended.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 14, 2011, 03:18:34 PM
Leone wanted this extra 40mins in it and I would definitely like to see it the way he intended.

 O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on March 14, 2011, 04:19:14 PM
I'd like to see the scenes of Noodles's childhood (the scene with Bugsy getting arrested in particular) and Darlanne Fluegel's extra scenes if they exist. Maybe the 1968 scene between Max and O'Donnell.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 14, 2011, 04:42:59 PM
I'd like to see the scenes of Noodles's childhood (the scene with Bugsy getting arrested in particular) and Darlanne Fluegel's extra scenes if they exist. Maybe the 1968 scene between Max and O'Donnell.

Frayling does not have the scenes with Bugsy getting arrested as being one of those that were cut. That aspect of the story was definitely in a script, but I am not sure whether it was in the final shooting script or whether those scenes were actually shot.... That doesn't bother me terribly; we know that Bugsy didn't like the gang cuz they didn't respect him as "neighborhood boss," and cuz they took his job of being escorts for the Capuano brothers' bootlegging. Sure, having sent him to jail would even further explain Bugsy's rage, but I am satisfied without those scenes; I don't think that is one of the "loose ends" of this film.
 
But I welcome any extra footage  :)


Title: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on March 17, 2011, 11:23:52 PM
Once Upon A Time In America 1984 is going to be restore to the closest directors version, some articles i found on web enjoy


http://www.latinoreview.com/news/-once-upon-a-time-in-america-to-be-restored-with-director-s-cut-12886

http://blog.moviefone.com/2011/03/11/once-upon-a-time-in-america-new-release/

http://www.filmjunk.com/2011/03/11/longer-version-of-once-upon-a-time-in-america-in-the-works/

http://www.flicksnews.net/2011/03/40-minutes-of-unused-footage-to-be.html

http://www.movieline.com/2011/03/sergio-leones-once-upon-a-time-in-america-is-about-to-get-even-more-epic.php

http://www.sneakpeek.ca/2011/03/leone-family-restoring-once-upon-time.html

http://geektyrant.com/news/2011/3/10/forty-minutes-of-unused-footage-being-added-to-sergio-leones.html

http://www.slashfilm.com/cut-sergio-leones-time-america-40-minutes/

http://www.filmshaft.com/sergio-leones-kids-planning-new-cut-of-once-upon-a-time-in-america/

http://thefilmstage.com/2011/03/10/sergio-leones-once-upon-a-time-in-america-getting-restored-with-40-new-minutes-added/

http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/archives/new_cut_of_sergio_leones_once_upon_a_time_in_america_on_the_way_with_40/

all this articles claiming 40 minutes that just missleading info it's 25 minutes


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 18, 2011, 06:14:42 AM
Italian news articles give some additional details.  For example:

It looks like the unreleased footage already has original audio in English

Leone's children have found a script written by him between 1960 and 1965 about a battle between warriors in Ancient Rome.  Inspired by The Magnificent 7. David Franzoni screenwriter of Amistad and The Gladiator is very eager to put together a film based on the script.

Another article reveals that the agreement with Milchan was signed 10 days ago and that Leone thought that the short U.S. version ruined his movie and he would never see it.

It also states that Scorsese has said he is available for the new version.  Leone's children are adamant that the fully restored director's cut will be available in 2012.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/italy/167439-cera-una-volta-america-once-upon-time-america-new-restored-version.html (http://forum.blu-ray.com/italy/167439-cera-una-volta-america-once-upon-time-america-new-restored-version.html)


Thanks for the links! btw, all the articles I have read say that the Leone children have bought the Italian rights to the film. Does that mean the restored version will only be released in Italy? (I may have asked that a couple of times before but I have never gotten a straight answer to that; if anyone knows I'd greatly appreciate it....)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on March 18, 2011, 06:33:24 AM
You have to ask Leone's children ... ;)

But I'm sure if the one day version exists it will be sold to the whole world.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 18, 2011, 06:36:39 AM
You have to ask Leone's children ... ;)

But I'm sure if the one day version exists it will be sold to the whole world.

well I'd be mighty happy if they indeed posted on these boards  ;)

I am not worried about eventually getting my hands on a copy; these days, everything is available through one channel or another. I am just hoping that we'll get a full-scale (theatrical?!) release with official dvd's etc., rather than having to get a copied version off some guy in Italy!

But if it is indeed released only in Italy, I hope that the English audio will be available. (I have never seen any Italian versions of Leone's films, but I assume that since OUATIA was dubbed into Italian, then they'll probably dub these new scenes into Italian as well, rather than using Italian subtitles).


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 18, 2011, 07:00:55 AM
1. I am sure that the Italian company that is taking care of restoring these scenes and releasing the new movie has public contact information. Perhaps someone on these boards who speaks Italian could call them or write them a letter just to clarify this question (ie. whether the new film will be released in America) and maybe some others and post their reply here? That would be mighty cool  :)

2. While the articles that have been linked here have said that the the original audio exists for these new scenes, I wonder if Leone actually completed the full post-production for these scenes, including editing, and most importantly, scoring them? If not, then I guess the Leone children and the "restorers" they are working with will choose among the various songs from the film score and place them in the scenes where they believe it's appropriate?


Title: Re: ORIGINAL DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on March 18, 2011, 08:32:01 AM
Once Upon A Time In America 1984 Original Director's Cut is going to be restore, some articles i found on web enjoy


http://www.latinoreview.com/news/-once-upon-a-time-in-america-to-be-restored-with-director-s-cut-12886

http://blog.moviefone.com/2011/03/11/once-upon-a-time-in-america-new-release/

http://www.filmjunk.com/2011/03/11/longer-version-of-once-upon-a-time-in-america-in-the-works/

http://www.flicksnews.net/2011/03/40-minutes-of-unused-footage-to-be.html

http://www.movieline.com/2011/03/sergio-leones-once-upon-a-time-in-america-is-about-to-get-even-more-epic.php

http://www.sneakpeek.ca/2011/03/leone-family-restoring-once-upon-time.html

http://geektyrant.com/news/2011/3/10/forty-minutes-of-unused-footage-being-added-to-sergio-leones.html

http://www.slashfilm.com/cut-sergio-leones-time-america-40-minutes/

http://www.filmshaft.com/sergio-leones-kids-planning-new-cut-of-once-upon-a-time-in-america/

http://thefilmstage.com/2011/03/10/sergio-leones-once-upon-a-time-in-america-getting-restored-with-40-new-minutes-added/

http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/archives/new_cut_of_sergio_leones_once_upon_a_time_in_america_on_the_way_with_40/



Thanks.  O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on March 21, 2011, 09:30:39 AM
Quote
(8)Carol at the Rest home tells Noodles how Eve died alone

Judging from Frayling's description I doubt if this was filmed, since Carol makes reference to Eve killing herself with an overdose. Obviously that doesn't happen in the finished film.

Thanks for the rundown though.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 21, 2011, 11:36:46 AM
Every time I watch this film, a new part of the plot bothers me. I just finished it again, and here is what I cannot figure out:

When Noodles visits Carol in the rest home, she tells him that on that fateful night, Max started shooting at the cops cuz he wanted to get himself killed, cuz he was afraid of winding up in a nut house like his father. (And in some of the extra scenes, I believe Carol also says that Max had syphilis).

  However, once we find out at the end that Max is still alive, it is never explained why he indeed started shooting that night? Some may say that he intentionally faked his own death so that he could run away and build a new life under a different identity, but I do not agree with that; there is no way that Max could have anticipated that by starting the shooting, there would be someone with a similar-looking body to him that would be burned up and people would think it was him and he would be able to get away (Sure, once that did happen, Max took the opportunity to run away and build a new identity, etc.) However, Carol was obviously wrong in her belief that Max was trying to kill himself that night, so I am wondering if anyone can answer me: now that we realize Carol was wrong about Max trying to get himself killed, why did Max start the shooting that night?

(Here is the only answer I can think of: Carol was right that Max indeed started the shooting cuz he wanted to die; however, once he realized he could get away and they'd misidentify his body, he figured that was even better than committing suicide: to get away and change identities. So Carol was correct in her belief about Max intending to die that night, but she was wrong about the final result...? Or perhaps Carol was wrong about the entire thing; Max was really never suicidal and did not really start the shooting that night... but that doesn't seem likely).... I'd appreciate if anyone would clear this up for me.

Thanks  :)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 21, 2011, 12:05:07 PM
Hope this helps.
Noodles and the gang are holding Max back.  He is ambitious and wants to pursue career opportunities out West.  He needs the gang's money and doesn't want to leave any loose ends.  In one of the deleted scenes Carol tells Noodles that he doesn't give a sh** about Patsy and Cockeye but he didn't want Noodles to die.
Max owns a funeral business. Getting hold of a suitable corpse wouldn't be a problem for him.
Yes - Max duped her and Noodles

SCENE 140 REST HOME: CAROL'S ROOM (1968) Interior. Late Afternoon.

NOODLES enters. The NURSE closes the door from outside.

CAROL is sitting in a chair, her eyes closed, breathing slowly and deeply, relaxed, at peace with herself.

Coming towards her, NOODLES notices an empty hypo and a hemostat on a nearby table. Without opening her eyes, CAROL goes on talking again as if in a trance.

CAROL
Do you still wake up sick over having killed Max?  You still on that guilt trip? Huh, Noodles?...
You know why I kept wishing I'd see you again?

She opens her eyes and turns to look him full in the face.
   
To tell you he was better off dead. He had the syph. It had started to eat his brain little by little. If he wasn't already crazy, he soon woulda been.



Thanks much. The part about Max getting a "body double" for himself is quite interesting. Everything you are saying seems right, though I wonder if this will be clarified on the restored version. I can't friggin' wait to see it!!!!  :)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: moviesceleton on March 21, 2011, 12:33:13 PM
Every time I watch this film, a new part of the plot bothers me. I just finished it again, and here is what I cannot figure out:

When Noodles visits Carol in the rest home, she tells him that on that fateful night, Max started shooting at the cops cuz he wanted to get himself killed, cuz he was afraid of winding up in a nut house like his father. (And in some of the extra scenes, I believe Carol also says that Max had syphilis).

  However, once we find out at the end that Max is still alive, it is never explained why he indeed started shooting that night? Some may say that he intentionally faked his own death so that he could run away and build a new life under a different identity, but I do not agree with that; there is no way that Max could have anticipated that by starting the shooting, there would be someone with a similar-looking body to him that would be burned up and people would think it was him and he would be able to get away (Sure, once that did happen, Max took the opportunity to run away and build a new identity, etc.) However, Carol was obviously wrong in her belief that Max was trying to kill himself that night, so I am wondering if anyone can answer me: now that we realize Carol was wrong about Max trying to get himself killed, why did Max start the shooting that night?

(Here is the only answer I can think of: Carol was right that Max indeed started the shooting cuz he wanted to die; however, once he realized he could get away and they'd misidentify his body, he figured that was even better than committing suicide: to get away and change identities. So Carol was correct in her belief about Max intending to die that night, but she was wrong about the final result...? Or perhaps Carol was wrong about the entire thing; Max was really never suicidal and did not really start the shooting that night... but that doesn't seem likely).... I'd appreciate if anyone would clear this up for me.

Thanks  :)
Well, I always thought that the police were very much involved the case; that they saw that Max really gets away, that the others get killed and that a fake body is found. But this of course raises a bunch of new questions that lead to the conclusion that Max never (not in the end anyway) actually seriously thought that he was going to rob the bank - the whole robbery was just a way to cause a lot of noise so that Max could change scenery undisrupted. Naturally this scenario would imply that Max very clearly knew how much trouble and pain he was going to cause Noodles - maybe that was even a strong motivation for his act.

Just my speculation.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 21, 2011, 01:03:40 PM
Well, I always thought that the police were very much involved the case; that they saw that Max really gets away, that the others get killed and that a fake body is found. But this of course raises a bunch of new questions that lead to the conclusion that Max never (not in the end anyway) actually seriously thought that he was going to rob the bank - the whole robbery was just a way to cause a lot of noise so that Max could change scenery undisrupted. Naturally this scenario would imply that Max very clearly knew how much trouble and pain he was going to cause Noodles - maybe that was even a strong motivation for his act.

Just my speculation.

yeah, when Bailey meets Noodles in 1968 and Noodles says "you're crazy," Bailey responds:
"You said that to me once before, a long time ago. But my mind was never as clear as it was at that moment. I took away your whole life from you; I've been living in your place. I took everything. I took your money; I took your girl; all I left for you was 35 years of grief over having killed me."

So obviously this was something that Max had been planning.

There are plenty of possible scenarios for exactly how Max worked it out. I hope this is clarified in the new release (although perhaps Leone wanted this to be ambiguous)? Since we know many scenes of this film were shot but never released, I guess we can't know for sure which scenes Leone intended to explain and which he wanted to intentionally leave ambiguous...


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: LITTLE BIG MAN on March 23, 2011, 02:35:31 AM
Novecento posted this on main Sergio Leone News  O0


Great news  :)


“What a thrill, like a son who returns home after many years ...”
Andrea, son of the unforgettable film director Sergio Leone, along with his sister Raffaella at the head of Leone Productions, has succeeded in a task very dear to his heart. He has purchased from the producer Aarnon Milchan the Italian rights to Once Upon a Time in America, his father’s last film dated 1984.

“It was a long negotiation, difficult, but eventually we made it.” told a liberated Andrea “Now the film will go to the restored images lab of the Cineteca Bologna, directed by Gianluca Farinelli.” They are dedicated to the painstaking restoration of images frame by frame, dubbing the original, soundtrack, effects. “Especially” Andrea Leone continues, “to reassemble the pieces of film, which my father had to cut due to time restraints.”

Among these is the encounter at the Riverdale Cemetery between Noodles - De Niro - and Louise Fletcher (the unforgettable nurse in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest). Louise Fletcher plays the director of the cemetery, an austere and ambiguous character, giving an atmosphere of great pathos to Noodles’ first research of his past.

And also, the encounter of old Noodles with Elizabeth McGovern on stage in a theater as she recites the part of Cleopatra in Shakespeare’s ‘Antony and Cleopatra’. “The dubbing remains the original.” Andrea continues “So we will not dub the new components whose on-screen dialogue will be subtitled in Italian. There will be new and complex editing. To supervise the task we will use some-one exceptional. Like a Quentin Tarantino or Martin Scorsese, who understand the film culture of my father, and are expert in the restoration of old films. We wanted to show the new edition of the film at Cannes this year, but there is not sufficient time. Too bad because the president of the Jury will be De Niro. With Sky, we are studying plans for its launch. I do not exclude that the film will return to theaters in 2012."

But the surprises do not end there. “Rummaging in the drawers of my father’s study” Andrea Leone continues, “we found a screenplay that he wrote between 1960 and 1965. It is the story of a handful of fighters engaged in a battle of Ancient Rome. The film is inspired by ‘The Magnificent 7’. We contacted David Franzoni, screenwriter of 'Amistad' and from 'The Gladiator "and we're making a movie to be produced by studios or independents linked with Milchan. Franzoni is pumped by the idea of putting together a film based on an original script by Leone. He is an avid fan. In his study he has a giant poster of The Good the Bad and the Ugly.”




Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on March 23, 2011, 04:07:01 AM
thanks  O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on March 23, 2011, 01:55:41 PM
It will not be just a simple restoration of the film "Once Upon a Time in America", but a director's cut, that is a return to the original version that the director Sergio Leone had assembled.  A dream that his children, Andrea and Raffaella, have pursued for a long time and now thanks to an agreement with producer Arnon Milchan, signed ten days ago, it will become a reality.

I wonder why it took so long to reach an agreement.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Shambaby on March 24, 2011, 11:47:39 PM
 "There will be new and complex editing."    I wonder how different it will be.  I have seen hundreds of films.  nothing blew me away the way OUTIA did in Chicago in 1984.  It's so damned exciting, I can hardly stand it! 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Cusser on March 25, 2011, 09:34:25 AM
.. this of course raises a bunch of new questions that lead to the conclusion that Max never (not in the end anyway) actually seriously thought that he was going to rob the bank - the whole robbery was just a way to cause a lot of noise so that Max could change scenery undisrupted. Naturally this scenario would imply that Max very clearly knew how much trouble and pain he was going to cause Noodles - maybe that was even a strong motivation for his act.

Just my speculation.

Remember, Max made sure Noodles did not accompany the others that night, because his plan was already in place...


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: moviesceleton on March 25, 2011, 09:45:38 AM
Remember, Max made sure Noodles did not accompany the others that night, because his plan was already in place...
Good call O0 It's been years since I last saw the movie so I don't remember all the details. This pretty much confirms my theory.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on March 25, 2011, 10:14:42 AM
Thanks guys for these great articles. O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 25, 2011, 02:07:13 PM
Remember, Max made sure Noodles did not accompany the others that night, because his plan was already in place...

I don't see any evidence in the film as to where Noodles was at that time, and why he wasn't escorting the booze shipment, and how he made it out of there alive.

I have read that in a deleted scene (which will hopefully now be restored), the elderly Carol tells Noodles that Max didn't want to involve him in his suicide, but that he didn't give a fuck about Cockeye and Patsy. Of course, we know that Carol's version of the story is wrong (she still believes the story Max told her...) but I see no evidence to support the version that Max intentionally left Noodles alive to cause him grief...  I mean, if Max wanted to ditch his past life, change identities and take the money and move on, isn't it better not to leave anybody around?

I would really appreciate if someone can explain exactly where Noodles was on that fateful night and why he wasn't involved in the shooting....


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: moviesceleton on March 25, 2011, 02:32:49 PM
I don't see any evidence in the film as to where Noodles was at that time, and why he wasn't escorting the booze shipment, and how he made it out of there alive.

I have read that in a deleted scene (which will hopefully now be restored), the elderly Carol tells Noodles that Max didn't want to involve him in his suicide, but that he didn't give a fuck about Cockeye and Patsy. Of course, we know that Carol's version of the story is wrong (she still believes the story Max told her...) but I see no evidence to support the version that Max intentionally left Noodles alive to cause him grief...  I mean, if Max wanted to ditch his past life, change identities and take the money and move on, isn't it better not to leave anybody around?

I would really appreciate if someone can explain exactly where Noodles was on that fateful night and why he wasn't involved in the shooting....
Now I could be totally wrong, but didn't Max knock him out?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on March 25, 2011, 04:02:43 PM
Now I could be totally wrong, but didn't Max knock him out?

Yea that's what I thought.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 25, 2011, 05:06:49 PM
Now I could be totally wrong, but didn't Max knock him out?

we see Max punch him and he falls down; next thing we see is the elderly Noodles and Carol at the Bailey Foundation. not clear whether Noodles got knocked out...?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on March 26, 2011, 06:56:01 PM
Wow, thanks for the script. O0

I'm reading through it and I have to say I really like the opening scene. The fight between Noodles and the Syndicate goons is really intense, though not necessarily Leone-esque.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 26, 2011, 11:20:56 PM
Thanks for the scripts!

1. So this 1982 script is the final shooting script?

2. Tempted as I am to read the script of the missing scenes, I think I'm gonna hold off until the restored movie is released  :)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on March 27, 2011, 02:34:43 PM
we see Max punch him and he falls down; next thing we see is the elderly Noodles and Carol at the Bailey Foundation. not clear whether Noodles got knocked out...?

He definitely pistol-whips him pretty hard.

I'll advance a new theory re: this film: the movie is a dying vision by Noodles after Max cracks his head open.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 04, 2011, 07:47:18 AM
In issue 359 of Cahiers Du Cinema dated May 01 1984, Leone spoke of the 50 minutes he cut from the movie:

Roughly translated:

"I cut a scene where Deborah (Elizabeth McGovern) plays the role of Cleopatra: meetings between Eve and De Niro; a love scene with Deborah as a young girl; a passage that I liked very much, the restaurant at the train station (it was shot at the Brasserie Julien in Paris); a very beautiful scene between De Niro and the driver of the Rolls Royce who is Jewish too, but bourgeois/middle-class.

I also cut a scene from the 1930s where the garbage truck that we see at the end of the film is stopped in front of the mansion, another where a crane dredges the river bringing the movie back to 1968. And another beautiful scene with Louise Fletcher, who plays the director of the cemetery - with one cut, we no longer see her in the film. Many of the cuts I was forced to make concern Noodles' relationships with women."


So the additional footage may be:

Deborah as Cleopatra

Meetings between Eve and Noodles

A love scene with Deborah as a young girl  :o

Deborah waiting at the train station restaurant (Brasserie Julien in Paris)

De Niro and the driver of the Rolls Royce (Milchan)  :-\

Garbage truck scene from 1930s

A crane dredging the river bringing the movie back to 1968

Louise Fletcher as director of the cemetery


(http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb338/once2/deleted/cahiers.jpg)



Frayling talks about most of these scenes. In the extra dialogue between Noodles and his Jewish limo driver, the driver expresses his disdain for Noodles's way of life. The reason Leone wanted this in was to emphasize that the Jewish community despised Jewish gangsters (this theme is very prevalent in The Hoods as well, how the community looked down upon the gangsters).

Also, I wonder if one of the reasons Leone shot this scene (aside from it having a source in the book) is to emphasize another difference between his gangster film and the other gangster films to which it inevitably is compared (yeah, of course I am talking about The Godfather  ;)...)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 04, 2011, 02:03:33 PM
There's some relevance to Milchan's additional scene but I hope they changed the dialogue:

. . .

NOODLES
I like your outfit. Just like them Germans who drop matches onto Jewish delis so they can watch them burn to the ground.

CHAUFFEUR
They burned mine. So I brought my wife and children here.

. . .

CHAUFFEUR
They don't all tip like you.  But I go to school, I'm working for a degree in chemical engineering.  

NOODLES
Maybe you'll earn a few bucks by the time you're fifty and too old to get it up.

. . .


hmmm....  I don't see how the German stuff fits; prior to Hitler's coming to power (which is almost certainly after this scene  takes place) German Jews were generally not persecuted


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on April 04, 2011, 08:58:57 PM
By the government, no, but the SA was performing goon operations well before then.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on April 05, 2011, 07:26:42 AM
There's some relevance to Milchan's additional scene but I hope they changed the dialogue:
Really? Sounds like pretty good dialogue to me.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Dust Devil on April 05, 2011, 11:43:35 PM
It sounds like it doesn't belong in the OUATIA I know.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on June 07, 2011, 01:08:58 PM
I'm not saying the missing footage isn't of interest, but frankly I'd rather have it available separately as part of the special features. The 229-minute version is good enough as it is, even if a few minor points bug me.

Leone in De Fornari p25-6:

"Then there is the very long one that has never been edited and which lasts fifty minutes longer. Four and a half hours. But we rejected the idea of two parts on TV. It is so intricate that it has to be done in one evening. And besides, let's be honest: This one is my version. The other perhaps explained things more clearly and it could have been done on TV in two or three parts, but the version that I prefer is this one, that bit of reclusiveness is just what I like about it."


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 07, 2011, 02:51:37 PM
Leone in De Fornari p25-6:

"Then there is the very long one that has never been edited and which lasts fifty minutes longer. Four and a half hours. But we rejected the idea of two parts on TV. It is so intricate that it has to be done in one evening. And besides, let's be honest: This one is my version. The other perhaps explained things more clearly and it could have been done on TV in two or three parts, but the version that I prefer is this one, that bit of reclusiveness is just what I like about it."

according to Frayling, it didn't seem like Leone was thrilled to have cut the 50 minutes. who knows...


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 07, 2011, 02:52:36 PM
is there an expected release date for the restored version? I can't remember ever anticipating anything more than this  :)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on June 08, 2011, 12:40:34 AM
according to Frayling, it didn't seem like Leone was thrilled to have cut the 50 minutes. who knows...

He wasn't.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on June 08, 2011, 03:22:10 AM
He also said somewhere in The Conversations that OUATITW was "95% himself" and OUATIA (european cut) "99%".
So I guess he was cool with that.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on June 08, 2011, 01:54:41 PM
Actually it was 80% and a 100% (p.136)  ;). So yes, I guess he was pretty happy nonetheless.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 09, 2011, 08:36:02 PM
p. 458 of STDWD... Leone's "ideal running time, he said, would have been 'between 4:10 and 4:25,' but he  very reluctantly excised between forty-five and fifty minutes' worth of 'significant material.' "


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on June 10, 2011, 02:05:34 AM
Actually it was 80% and a 100% (p.136)  ;). So yes, I guess he was pretty happy nonetheless.

Oh? I'm pretty sure I read other % somewhere. May be in the Cahiers du Cinema? I'll double check!


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on June 12, 2011, 02:53:44 PM
Yup, as noodles_leone put it:

...OUATITW was "95% himself" and OUATIA (european cut) "99%".

I think noodles_leone's point is that OUATIA, in the version that most of the world outside of the US saw, allowed Leone to be 99% himself. If the whole world had only seen the butchered version, he could not have said that because no-one would ever have seen what Leone's vision was.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on December 13, 2011, 06:01:55 PM
Quote
Ora l'Immagine Ritrovata sta riparando "C'era una volta in America" di Leone: deve essere pronto per Cannes 2012
  O0 O0

http://bologna.repubblica.it/cronaca/2011/10/01/news/nel_laboratorio_di_restauro_dei_film_che_pure_scorsese_invidia_a_bologna-22504184/


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 13, 2011, 06:09:13 PM
  O0 O0

http://bologna.repubblica.it/cronaca/2011/10/01/news/nel_laboratorio_di_restauro_dei_film_che_pure_scorsese_invidia_a_bologna-22504184/

Translation, please? Thanks O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on December 13, 2011, 06:34:46 PM
By Google but you can get the gist of it

It also works nights and weekends to meet deadlines. Now the picture they are restoring is "Once Upon a Time in America" ​​by Leone to be ready for Cannes 2012

"We have a lot of work, sometimes over night we respect the time and also from December on weekends, but we do not know what will be our future." The speaker is Helen Tammaccaro, between the leaders of the Image Laboratory found again that if the Municipal Film Archive will not be able to become Foundation later this year will close its doors. Yesterday the Mayor for Cultural Ronchi, in the City Council, confirmed that the transformation will occur. The workshop brings useful and is considered one of the centers of excellence of the restoration in Europe. These days it is restoring Upon a Time in America Sergio Leone, Martin Scorsese's Film Foundation and want ready for Cannes 2012.

In addition to that of Helen, at the risk of other places there are 32 people, including 15 and 17 employees hired. Professionals to bring back to life the film they are targeting film archives all over the world, including Hong Kong and Singapore as well as the now famous collaboration with Scorsese's Film Foundation and the French Gaumont and Pathé. "It's a gamble born in the 90s - remembers Gian Luca Farinelli, director of the Film Archive - Film Found from experience that made us feel first hand the lack of a place in Italy for restoration. With a course specially created and the first equipment funded by the Province began a limited company, then on the initiative of Mayor Cofferati became a company in cohousing with the City. " But the big problem today is cohousing.

"Thanks to a law wanted by Tremonti - explains Farinelli - from 2012 will no longer be companies within the municipalities. But the laboratory is difficult to sell, even if it's useful. Its value is not only economic, it is an asset for throughout the city. " A heritage of meticulous work and avant-garde technology, passion and a solid philological cultural background. "When a film comes to us to be restored - explains Tammaccaro - the first thing we do is to recover the historical memory. We have worked with directors of photography and operators such as Ennio Guarnieri for the sweet life, Daniel Nannuzzi for The Damned, or same directors as Vittorio De Seta for his short ". Then for each title is an ad-hoc path. "We do not just repair the damage, try to return to work its value."

A commitment that requires at least three months to film. Arrived in Via Riva Reno the film is over, frame by frame, to fix the flaws evident manually, then it is scanned in order to continue with the "clean" digital, then you are working on lights and colors involving the workers of the time. All the while in parallel it back to life sound. And, finally, it's back to film. So it was Visconti's Senso, for Sergio Leone's A Fistful of Dynamite, short for the Brothers Lumière and other dozens of masterpieces. So it is these days for America Loen, but The Great Illusion by Jean Renoir, End of Days by Elio Petri and Chaplin's The Gold Rush. And so we hope to continue to be from January onwards.
 
(October 1, 2011)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 13, 2011, 06:43:16 PM
By Google but you can get the gist of it

It also works nights and weekends to meet deadlines. Now the picture they are restoring is "Once Upon a Time in America" ​​by Leone to be ready for Cannes 2012

"We have a lot of work, sometimes over night we respect the time and also from December on weekends, but we do not know what will be our future." The speaker is Helen Tammaccaro, between the leaders of the Image Laboratory found again that if the Municipal Film Archive will not be able to become Foundation later this year will close its doors. Yesterday the Mayor for Cultural Ronchi, in the City Council, confirmed that the transformation will occur. The workshop brings useful and is considered one of the centers of excellence of the restoration in Europe. These days it is restoring Upon a Time in America Sergio Leone, Martin Scorsese's Film Foundation and want ready for Cannes 2012.

In addition to that of Helen, at the risk of other places there are 32 people, including 15 and 17 employees hired. Professionals to bring back to life the film they are targeting film archives all over the world, including Hong Kong and Singapore as well as the now famous collaboration with Scorsese's Film Foundation and the French Gaumont and Pathé. "It's a gamble born in the 90s - remembers Gian Luca Farinelli, director of the Film Archive - Film Found from experience that made us feel first hand the lack of a place in Italy for restoration. With a course specially created and the first equipment funded by the Province began a limited company, then on the initiative of Mayor Cofferati became a company in cohousing with the City. " But the big problem today is cohousing.

"Thanks to a law wanted by Tremonti - explains Farinelli - from 2012 will no longer be companies within the municipalities. But the laboratory is difficult to sell, even if it's useful. Its value is not only economic, it is an asset for throughout the city. " A heritage of meticulous work and avant-garde technology, passion and a solid philological cultural background. "When a film comes to us to be restored - explains Tammaccaro - the first thing we do is to recover the historical memory. We have worked with directors of photography and operators such as Ennio Guarnieri for the sweet life, Daniel Nannuzzi for The Damned, or same directors as Vittorio De Seta for his short ". Then for each title is an ad-hoc path. "We do not just repair the damage, try to return to work its value."

A commitment that requires at least three months to film. Arrived in Via Riva Reno the film is over, frame by frame, to fix the flaws evident manually, then it is scanned in order to continue with the "clean" digital, then you are working on lights and colors involving the workers of the time. All the while in parallel it back to life sound. And, finally, it's back to film. So it was Visconti's Senso, for Sergio Leone's A Fistful of Dynamite, short for the Brothers Lumière and other dozens of masterpieces. So it is these days for America Loen, but The Great Illusion by Jean Renoir, End of Days by Elio Petri and Chaplin's The Gold Rush. And so we hope to continue to be from January onwards.
 
(October 1, 2011)


haha this shit cracks me up.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I'm hopin one of our European friend can provide a proper translation



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 14, 2011, 03:09:27 AM
Thanks to Novecento, drinkanddestroy, cigar joe and Google.

Looks like, despite the laboratory's funding problems, the restoration is on track for release at the Cannes Film Festival 2012 (May 16 - 27).

Hopefully other screenings and releases will follow.  O0   



does it say if it will be released in English? and anything about the rumor that Morricone will be composing new music for the deleted scenes?

Sergio is smiling in heaven  :) :) :) :) :) :) :)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 14, 2011, 03:11:02 AM
if this new release ever gets screened in New York, we gotta have a major locations tour followed by trip to the theater. and I hope we can find the locations for the restored scenes  ;)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 14, 2011, 03:13:58 AM
so it seems like the article was about the restoration company, which just so happened to be currently restoring OUATIA, so they mentioned the movie in the article; but the article was really about the restoration company, and not OUATIA per se, correct?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on December 14, 2011, 03:32:02 AM
so it seems like the article was about the restoration company, which just so happened to be currently restoring OUATIA, so they mentioned the movie in the article; but the article was really about the restoration company, and not OUATIA per se, correct?

Yea that is the gist of it  8)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on December 14, 2011, 06:17:41 AM
and I hope we can find the locations for the restored scenes  ;)
Well, yeah, but we may have to go to Canada for that. ;)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 14, 2011, 01:46:25 PM
Well, yeah, but we may have to go to Canada for that. ;)

New York--Canada--Rome--Venice--Almeria

sound good for a summer vacation?  ;)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on December 14, 2011, 04:18:51 PM
Sounds expensive, anyway. ::)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 14, 2011, 06:10:24 PM
Sounds expensive, anyway. ::)

Tonight's Powerball Lotto is $78 million. Friday's Mega Millions Lotto is $135 million. If I win either one, I'll subsidize a group trip  O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 14, 2011, 06:27:20 PM
I've always dreamed of doing two major trips when I get rich, God-willing:

a) an international trip to all Leone filming locations;

and

b) an RV-road trip across America to all 30 Major League Baseball stadiums (plus a few minor league ones in small towns, those would probably be cool as well).

As the NY Lottery slogan goes, "HEY, YOU NEVER KNOW!"


I'll start the trip by taking a boat up the Hudson to pick up you and cj from upstate, and we'll turn off into some little river somewhere to do some fly fishing. (Maybe we can go on the Delaware or Lackawanna, and pick up Groggy on the way  O0)





Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on December 14, 2011, 07:39:15 PM
I'll start the trip by taking a boat up the Hudson to pick up you and cj from upstate, and we'll turn off into some little river somewhere to do some fly fishing. (Maybe we can go on the Delaware or Lackawanna, and pick up Groggy on the way  O0)
D&D, have you ever actually DONE any fly fishing?

Anyway, I hope you win the lotto........


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 14, 2011, 07:41:05 PM
D&D, have you ever actually DONE any fly fishing?

Anyway, I hope you win the lotto........

No! I am a big city boy. But there is always a first time for everything: both fly fishing , and winning lottos :)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: PowerRR on February 17, 2012, 11:41:53 AM
Exactly 3 months away from Cannes. Wonder if we'll get any official news on the new cut soon.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on February 17, 2012, 03:23:24 PM
Exactly 3 months away from Cannes. Wonder if we'll get any official news on the new cut soon.

I was just doing some Googling a couple of nights ago, trying to find something on this very issue!

unfortunately, all the articles are from that period in mid-March when the official story broke. I have not heard any updates since then. At that time, Leone's children wanted to release it either at Cannes or Venice, but who knows what's gonna happen. I am so excited I can hardly wait. I am anticipating this like I've anticipated nothing before!

btw, all the stories say that the Leones purchased the Italian distribution rights to the film, (and I believe that the extra scenes will be released with Italian subtitles). But does anyone know what that means for America? Will it be released in America on Region 1, or will we have to purchase the Italian dvd?




Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on February 17, 2012, 03:51:21 PM
I was just doing some Googling a couple of nights ago, trying to find something on this very issue!

unfortunately, all the articles are from that period in mid-March when the official story broke. I have not heard any updates since then. At that time, Leone's children wanted to release it either at Cannes or Venice, but who knows what's gonna happen. I am so excited I can hardly wait. I am anticipating this like I've anticipated nothing before!

btw, all the stories say that the Leones purchased the Italian distribution rights to the film, (and I believe that the extra scenes will be released aith Italian subtitles). But anyone know what that means for America? Will it be released in America on Region 1, or will we have to purchase the Italian dvd?




I think I'd be prepared to go either way.  8)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on March 17, 2012, 09:25:53 AM
http://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2011/12/15/2012-cineteca-portera-piazza-restauro-cera-volta-america/177676/


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on March 17, 2012, 09:42:53 AM
What does it say?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: PowerRR on March 18, 2012, 10:12:57 PM
Google translation (first paragraph or so):

"The announcement is not official yet, but the microphones of Radio Alma , Gianluca Farinelli , the director of the new and contested "foundation" Film Library , as revealed during the next summer we could see, in Piazza Maggiore in Bologna, uncut and restored version of Once Upon a Time in America"

The rest doesn't' say much, other than a mention of an original 4 1/2 hour cut before being cut down, and obvious details on the back story of the film.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on March 19, 2012, 08:55:51 AM
Thanks! So there is hope.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 19, 2012, 02:56:55 PM
Yeah, this looks like it's really happening. I am just hoping that it is widely available and released on dvd/blu ray in America (not just shown a few times in one festival or another).

If/when it indeed happens that the dvd/blu ray is released in America, of the full version that Leone really intended (4:40 or so), it will be one of the happiest days of my life  :) :) :)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Shambaby on April 12, 2012, 11:39:35 AM
I think I will go insane if the new director's cut of OUATIA is at Cannes this May.  (the first time, they stood and applauded for 15 minutes!)
This is a life-long dream come true!  I must see it on the big screen!
The screen I saw it on in Chicago no longer exists.  They chopped up that old great theatre.  Anyway, I wonder if Ennio has written any new themes for the film.
There would have to be a new soundtrack released, right?  Please keep me up to date!   


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 12, 2012, 12:49:15 PM
I remember reading something on these boards about Morricone writing new music for it (though I am sure it will just be variations on the existing melodies rather than entirely new melodies), but I do not remember how accurate it was.

I get aroused every time I think of this new version of the movie that is coming out. But after all this anticipation, I just hope that I get to orgasm and don't get blue-balled. I don't think I could take it  ;)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Banjo on April 14, 2012, 05:53:36 AM
Excellent news! O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on April 14, 2012, 08:43:54 AM
Sweeeeeeet......... boy would I love to be able to attend that Cannes screening  O0 O0 O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on April 14, 2012, 10:18:46 AM
Recent interview with Martin Scorsese in which he talks about Wolf of Wall Street that he hopes to start shooting in late summer and  Once Upon a Time in America:

"We have a wonderful film that’s been restored now that’ll be at Cannes called Once Upon a Time in America. Sergio Leone. It’s about 5 1/2 hours, this extraordinary gangster film that Leone made with De Niro and Jimmy Woods. It’s quite an achievement."

http://uk.askmen.com/entertainment/better_look/b_martin-scorsese-interview.html (http://uk.askmen.com/entertainment/better_look/b_martin-scorsese-interview.html)

It looks like this is really happening . WOW!

If I had a Facebook page I'd be updating my status to Guardedly Optimistic.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 14, 2012, 09:29:02 PM
Thanks for the link, once  O0

Yes, I believe Scorcese is wrong about the timing; I believe it'll actually be about 45 minutes restored, which, (as Frayling detailed on STDWD), was Leone's preferred version all along, around 4:25.

But this is indeed WONDERFUL news.

 cj & dj, I TOLD you it was real this time  ;)


Few things in the world excite me as much as this!!!!! I didn't know till now that Scorcese was involved in this, but knowing what a Leone fan he is -- not to mention that it is Leone's children that are leading this, from what I've read so far -- makes me optimistic that this will be done as close as possible to Leone's vision.

 :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on April 15, 2012, 05:27:36 AM
 O0 O0 O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: PowerRR on April 15, 2012, 06:23:13 AM
i might cry

and by cry I mean cum my pants.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on April 15, 2012, 08:45:13 AM
I mean cum my pants.
That sounds incredibly painful, but I try not to judge the proclivities of others.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: PowerRR on April 15, 2012, 07:04:31 PM
what if the longer cut only hurts the movie? think of Cinema Paradiso theatrical vs. director's cut...many people including myself agree that the director's cut fills in too much unwanted information and breaks the charm/mystery of the relationship between Toto/Elena/Alfredo. But then again Tornatore made it and he's probably a fucking dumb ass. Leone's a genius...hopefully we can trust that his 'preferred version' is the greatest


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 15, 2012, 09:32:38 PM
what if the longer cut only hurts the movie? think of Cinema Paradiso theatrical vs. director's cut...many people including myself agree that the director's cut fills in too much unwanted information and breaks the charm/mystery of the relationship between Toto/Elena/Alfredo. But then again Tornatore made it and he's probably a fucking dumb ass. Leone's a genius...hopefully we can trust that his 'preferred version' is the greatest

the fact that the (roughly) 4:25 version was Leone's preferred version (not to mention the fact that the 3:49 version of has some plot holes) makes me very excited about it.

Of course,  I don't know whether Leone prepared these scenes for release (editing, dubbing, score, etc.); or whether they are still the raw prints that others will have to prepare for release (or some combination thereof). Therefore, I don't know if these scenes will be considered "100% Leone."
 But the bottom line is that Leone wanted these scenes included, and the work is in the hands of his children (and perhaps others, like Scorcese) who seem to be doing this out of the pure desire to see the Master's vision realized. So I am very optimistic and excited about it all.

I just hope it will be released on dvd/blu ray in America soon after it premiers at Cannes. I can't wait to see it, and I'd prefer to see it on the official release rather than on some bootleg that will inevitably float around soon after Cannes...


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on April 16, 2012, 09:16:16 AM
I just hope it will be released on dvd/blu ray in America soon after it premiers at Cannes.
How likely is that? Isn't it more probable that the new version will be released to cinemas first? Needless to say, that will delay the home video editions, which are at least a year away.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 16, 2012, 09:36:31 AM
How likely is that? Isn't it more probable that the new version will be released to cinemas first? Needless to say, that will delay the home video editions, which are at least a year away.

well I'd love to see it in theaters of course. I would have no problem with a delay of the dvd/blu-ray while it's being shown in theaters  O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on April 16, 2012, 05:43:52 PM
what if the longer cut only hurts the movie? think of Cinema Paradiso theatrical vs. director's cut...many people including myself agree that the director's cut fills in too much unwanted information and breaks the charm/mystery of the relationship between Toto/Elena/Alfredo.

The director's cut of Cinema Paradiso basically adds a whole new third chapter on to the end of the film which fundamentally changes the nature of the film and its plot. This is very different from OUATIA where the extra scenes are just going to flesh out some details without drastically altering anything.

well I'd love to see it in theaters of course. I would have no problem with a delay of the dvd/blu-ray while it's being shown in theaters  O0

Me neither - I would love to see it in the theaters.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 16, 2012, 07:28:09 PM
If it is shown in New York, we can take a big tour of the NYC filming locations that day, concluding with an extensive visit to McSorley's, before heading to the theater to watch the movie  :) :) :) :) :) :)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 16, 2012, 07:49:37 PM
Sergio must be smiling in heaven  :)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on April 17, 2012, 02:36:10 AM
There is a good probability the added scenes will slow down OUATIA, making it harder to watch (especially considering the film as we know it already lacks a few dynamic scenes during the adult period). But as long as they're in the same league as the rest of the movie, unlike GBU's added scene, it's more than ok with me. And, knowing the reason why they were deleted, they probably will be. At worst, we'll get one more hour of footage by the greatest director of all times at the very top of his talent. At best, the best movie ever will go from 10/10 to 12/10, making it virtually impossible to surpass.

No need to say, over-excited about all this.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on April 17, 2012, 05:52:39 AM
Not my favourite Leone 8/10

I'm eager to see the long version, but frankly said the film is already too long for its substance.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 17, 2012, 08:34:03 AM
Greatest movie of all time. It is not a minute to too long as is. There is not a moment where I forward cuz I say "this is dragging a bit." Not one single moment out of 229 minutes.

I agree with Noodles_Leone: at worst we get another hour of Leone footage; at best, the greatest movie ever gets even better. As it is, there are definitely some things that could use a bit more explaining (Frayling says how Leone cut 45-50 minutes of "significant material" to get to 229 minutes, and lists the scenes that were deleted. I've listed them at this post earlier in this thread http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=1302.msg146469#msg146469 We'll probably see those scenes, so we know what we can expect.

There are some plot points that could really benefit from using a bit more explaining (which IMO always made this movie a bit flawed -- but still my all-time fave).  
 
For example, The scenes explaining how Noodles meets Eve. Without it, it's pretty weird how we see Noodles head off to Florida, and then we suddenly see him with this chick and they're discussing business in front of her! So obviously, he has gotten pretty close to her. Explaining how they met helps us to understand that. (The parts with Eve are largely taken from The Hoods.  In the book, Noodles writes about how when he asks her out, all he could think of was her amazing tits; when they actually meet in the hotel, he finds out that they are falsies!


Also, there are two other points I've never quite understood, but it doesn't seem like there will be any explanation in the new version either:

a) when did Noodles receive that party invitation? He says to Deborah in her dressing room that he received this party invitation, but we don't know when he received it: Did he actually receive it along with the letter about the cemetery, but just never mentioned anything about it to Fat Moe? Or did someone deliver it to him while he was staying at Fat Moe's?

b) How the hell does Noodles figure out that Deborah is sleeping with Secretary Bailey? When she pretends not to know him, Noodles says (paraphrasing), "Why don't you just say that you're sleeping with him, and you're in love with him?!" Where in hell did Noodles get that info from? Did Carol tell him that off-camera?

c) and what exactly is The Bailey Foundation? Is it a nursing home (where Carol is living), which also has a theater, where Deborah is performing? Did Noodles visit Carol at The Bailey Foundation's nursing home, and then realized Deborah was performing there after seeing her picture? (Deborah, the supposedly big actress, is performing at the theater of The Bailey Foundation -- that is her big gig?) Does Noodles visit The Bailey Foundation in an attempt to discover who Secretary Bailey really is, or is Carol staying there and he decides to ask her to find out who Bailey is? Or is The Bailey Foundation nothing to do with Carol's nursing home, but she just happens to knows about it and explain it to him?

If the new scenes are the ones Frayling listed which i detailed at the link above, it doesn't look like any of these questions will be explained -- except possibly C). If anyone  can explain 'em, I'd be mighty grateful  :)



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 18, 2012, 12:02:20 PM
The movie covers a period of approx 47 years.  A 229 min or 270 min cut can't possibly describe all the events that took place within that period and the surrounding circumstances.

-------------


  
c) The Bailey Foundation is clearly a rest or nursing home.  The idea that it has a theater where Deborah performs is misguided.  Many people once they have acquired money or fame support charitable organisations.  In the movie, when they are looking at the photograph of the home's inauguration, Carol clearly tells Noodles that Deborah is the Patron Saint of the place.



yes, but the movie should explain all the events in it that don't make sense otherwise. This movie probably did have all the answers within the 6-10 hours of footage that Frayling says exists (or at least within Leone's preferred 4:25 version which will soon be released).

-------

Anyway, regarding C), yeah Carol says that Deborah is the patron saint of Bailey Foundation, ok so that's how Noodles figures out she is sleeping with Secretary Bailey? ok, that makes sense. As far as the theater, one of those deleted scenes which may soon be restored is the one with Deborah performing, which is cut from our current version of the movie, which it seems that Noodles goes to Deborah's dressing room soon after his meeting with Carol. But in fact, you are saying that after he met with Carol, he then went to some theater where she is performing, and then met her in dressing room -- so in fact, that meeting may have taken place a few days after his meeting with Carol, rather than immediately afterward as the current version makes it seem?


(and btw, as discussed in this thread http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=10498.0 I do not believe that Bailey's anonymity was a flaw; I think it was certainly possible -- up till the point where he was involved in that scandal; at that point, he was finished).


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: PowerRR on April 18, 2012, 12:44:47 PM
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118052787.html?cmpid=RSS%7CNews%7CLatestNews#.T48D2lT2-i8.facebook


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 18, 2012, 03:31:04 PM
yeah, thanks for the link! Great news!



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on April 18, 2012, 06:40:38 PM
May 18th! That's really soon!  :o  O0

I think Sergio Leone would be really proud - especially considering all the battles he fought to get this one released in any form in the first place.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Walton on April 18, 2012, 08:10:09 PM
Here's another article - this also holds out the hope for a nice new remastered blu-ray:

http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/restored-cut-of-sergio-leones-once-upon-a-time-in-america-with-40-more-minutes-to-premiere-at-cannes-film-festival-20120418?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on April 19, 2012, 05:05:59 AM
50 min?

269 min is the theatrical version.

Back in the mid 80s Leone talked about the necessity to cut the film and that he wanted to release OUTA later in a longer TV version in several parts (probably with that TV version of The Godfather in the back of his mind). But I never read anything why this announced TV version never happened.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 19, 2012, 10:03:18 AM
Frayling says Leone cut 45-50 minutes out of his ideal running time (for the 229 minute version). I presume those 45-50 minutes are what will be restored....


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on April 19, 2012, 01:13:38 PM
Normally nobody uses the Pal runtimes, except if a Pal version is the subject of the discussion.
OUTA was released in Europe with the aforementioned 229 min runtime. The German Blu runs 229:19 min, the Pal DVD 219:29


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 19, 2012, 09:56:58 PM
According to Issue 359 of Cahiers Du Cinema dated May 1984 the running time of the movie when released in Europe was 3 hours 40 (220 minutes).

From Cahiers interview with Sergio Leone in 1984, Leone discusses the 50 minutes he had to cut from the movie:

"Cahiers. Sur quoi ont porté les coupures de 50 minutes que vous avez déjà faites?"

In his book Something To Do With Death, Frayling talks about an extra 45 - 50 minutes but his sums don't quite add up.

Most of the recent press releases quote 40 minutes possibly because the writers are looking at a quoted running time of 229 minutes for the old version and 269 minutes for the fully restored version.

Soon after the agreement with Milchan to purchase the Italian rights, Andrea Leone said: "My father had made a version of four and a half hours (270 minutes), which was cut in Europe to three hours and forty (220 minutes)..."

I think the problem comes from when the movie was transferred to DVD. Owing to their using different frame rates, the NTSC version is 229 mins long and the PAL version 219 mins. Web sites such as IMDb naturally refer to the NTSC version for the running time of the movie.


When Andrea Leone says his father's version was "four and a half hours," I don't know if that  necessarily means exactly 270 minutes, or if it's a general rounded term.

Anyway, I am sure we'll find out the exact running time (no later than) when it's screened Cannes.
 I am way too excited about this release to worry about whether the exact extra time is 40, 45, or 50 minutes 

(Should I get greedy now and hope that one day they will release all 6-10 hours of footage  -- at least separately on the special features section of a dvd -- that Frayling says was shot for what Leone was then hoping would be a 2-part movie?  ;) )



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 22, 2012, 02:01:51 PM


For a long time I've been thinking about purchasing Marcello Garofalo's C'era una volta in America. Photographic memories.  Quite an expensive book but 320 pages and some interesting photos.



I've never heard of that book, and couldn't find it on Amazon or anywhere else (I tried Googling). Do you have a link where it can be purchased?

And is it basically just pictures? (That's the only way I'll  buy it, cuz I can't read Italian).


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on April 22, 2012, 02:09:04 PM
Once, that runtime in Frayling's book must be an error. Inside the book (pg. 458 -460) he only talks about the 229 min version.

I have a new German book on Leone which lists a lot of runtimes from several countries. And the uncut version always runs 228 or 229 min. In Italy, France, Germany, USA. The theatrical UK version was slightly cut, but still ran 228 min.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on April 22, 2012, 07:22:06 PM
Here's another article - this also holds out the hope for a nice new remastered blu-ray:

http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/restored-cut-of-sergio-leones-once-upon-a-time-in-america-with-40-more-minutes-to-premiere-at-cannes-film-festival-20120418?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed
"No word yet on when this version will hit DVD or BluRay but we presume that's around the corner." An absolutely worthless presumption.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on April 22, 2012, 07:25:27 PM
The theatrical UK version was slightly cut.
No doubt because of the horse falls.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 22, 2012, 07:43:25 PM
"No word yet on when this version will hit DVD or BluRay but we presume that's around the corner." An absolutely worthless presumption.

I don't know what "around the corner" means, but I think it's safe to say that a dvd/blu-ray will be released at some point (possibly after a theatrical run?) That's the important part, but I've been dreaming of since forever.

And when the dvd is released, I hope they get Frayling for the commentary.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on April 22, 2012, 09:38:04 PM
My point is that we've been given zero information. There is nothing to go on.

But let's see what I can pull out of my ass anyway, OK? 2014 will be the film's 30th Anniversary. Warner's loves to bring out special anniversary editions of films on home media. They may therefore decide to schedule their next DVD/Blu-ray release of OUATIA to coincide with that anniversary. And if there are going to be repertory screenings of the film first anyway, 2014 is none too late (remember, repertory is not general release--the film, in a sense, tours, arriving in different cities on different dates, which stretches the release period out considerably longer than those on general release). Of course, the new Italian DVD/Blu-ray might come out earlier, but that may not be of use to many of us.

Fall of 2013 might be close enough to the anniversary for Warner's, though, so it's possible we'll see a deluxe packaging job (in the tradition of the Citizen Kane and Casablanca releases) in time for Christmas. No doubt the Super Deluxe edition will include a facsimile bootlegger's whiskey flask and a pair of Eve's falsies. At 100 dollars, what self-respecting Leone fan will be able to resist? The cheapies who want to wait for the stripped down packaging (at 19.99) may have to wait until sometime late in 2014.


But as I say, at this point, it's all just speculation.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on April 23, 2012, 03:01:46 AM
But let's see what I can pull out of my ass anyway, OK?

I hope you know what you're doing.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on April 26, 2012, 03:29:22 PM
 O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on April 27, 2012, 01:21:04 AM
Do we still hang Once?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 27, 2012, 03:18:25 AM
That's it, I will not worry or think about the running time until after the movie is actually screened at Cannes, and we hear about the dvd/blu-ray. We've already heard so many different things about this release, I ain't gonna worry about any one particular article, even if it is supposed to be the "official word" from Cannes. No use in worrying about something that I've heard so many different versions of, I won't know for sure till it is screened, and I have no control over. A few years ago, we would have killed to see this restoration; now, we are getting all worked up over the reported running time before we even know for sure what's happening. In one recent interview with Scorcese, he says the movie is 5 1/2 hours; in a Variety article, it says 40 minutes will be restored, and now this says 25 minutes. And that's just three articles posted on this thread in the past couple of weeks! So the bottom line is we don't know jack. Let's just take it easy till after the screening!

Remember, this restoration is in the hands of people -- including Leone's children and Martin Scorcese -- who are every bit as excited and passionate about this movie as we are, and every bit as interested in seeing Leone's vision realized in the best way possible. They are people who care about this movie in the same way that you and I do. I am sure they will do a damn good job with it.

So for now, I am just really excited about the restoration, and I'm going to chill out and not concern myself with the running time or anything else. After it screens at Cannes, I'm sure I'll enjoy reading the articles, and perhaps we'll find out the real running time. But I will withhold judgment until I see the movie myself :)



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on April 27, 2012, 05:15:04 AM
 

Most reliable sources for the 1980's quote the running time of the movie when released in Europe as 3hrs 40 (220 minutes).    :-\



Then you must have other sources than I. Most of mine say 229 min, and anyway all uncut DVD, Blu Ray, VHS, TV versions I know about run 228 or 229 min.

http://www.ofdb.de/film/1657,Es-war-einmal-in-Amerika

But I'm sure the Cannes version will be longer than 245 min. Unless the film stock is damaged.
On the other hand for unknown reasons Scorsese has already failed to recreate the theatrical version of OUTW.



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 27, 2012, 06:46:42 AM

On the other hand for unknown reasons Scorsese has already failed to recreate the theatrical version of OUTW.



it's just that the final scene with the end music and the words "Once Upon a Time in the West" that were changed and the "Scorcese version" never fixed; but it's not that any of the actual movie footage from the original theatrical release is missing, no?



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 27, 2012, 08:53:34 AM
My reliable sources include Cahiers Du Cinema (1984), Sergio Leone (1984), Andrea Leone (has lived with the movie for most of his life) and Frayling (some errors & misunderstandings in other parts of his book).

I don't think you have any reliable sources from the 1980s to match these.

Running times of DVDs, Blu-rays, TV & VHS versions are not relevant other than to confuse writers of articles in newspapers, magazines and web sites who incorrectly assume that the running time of a NTSC version is the same as that of the original theatrical release.

In any event the comments on the Festival's official site seem clear - an additional 25 minutes have been added to the movie bringing the running time to 245 minutes.



 I am very confused by what you mean when you say the the original theatrical release was 220 minutes. I never heard of any 220 minute version. Frayling, in the bottom paragraph of page 460 of STDWD, says the 229 minute version is what was shown at Cannes. And on p. 462, middle paragraph, he says "The film was released in Europe in a 227-minute version, approved by Leone..." (I think it possibly took out two minutes to tone down some violence). But Frayling says nothing about a 220-minute version.



So what do you mean when you say that it is incorrect to "assume that the running time of an NTSC version is the same as that of the original theatrical release"?  Can you please elaborate/explain that statement? If you believe Frayling is wrong, and the original theatrical release was 220 minutes, are you saying that 9 minutes were added to the DVD (cuz the DVD's are currently 229 minutes). IF that's the case, then if the the newly restored version has 25 extra minutes and totals 245 minutes, you're saying that it does not include the 9 minutes that were added to the DVD? Or does the newly restored version have all 229 minutes we have now plus the new footage equals 245 minutes, which would mean that there is only 16 minutes of new footage?



 I know that the comments on the Festival's official site seem clear. But we have seen so many other clear comments (eg. the Variety article said there would be 40 extra minutes). So I don't know if we can believe any of the reported running times with certainty, until after the movie is screened.

--------------------------------------------------------------

P.S.  what do you mean when you say "some errors and misunderstandings in other parts of" Frayling's book? Are you referring to the running time of OUATIA, or to other, unrelated material in his book?



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on April 27, 2012, 01:19:25 PM
My reliable sources include Cahiers Du Cinema (1984), Sergio Leone (1984), Andrea Leone (has lived with the movie for most of his life) and Frayling (some errors & misunderstandings in other parts of his book).

I don't think you have any reliable sources from the 1980s to match these.

Running times of DVDs, Blu-rays, TV & VHS versions are not relevant other than to confuse writers of articles in newspapers, magazines and web sites who incorrectly assume that the running time of a NTSC version is the same as that of the original theatrical release.


No. Historically PAL & NTSC use different frame rates. This means that a NTSC version of a movie is approx 4% longer that a PAL version. It doesn't contain any extra footage, there is just a small slowdown in the action which is not noticeable to most people.  PAL versions of OUATIA are approx. 219 mins and NTSC versions approx 229 mins.


Running times of DVDs, Blu-rays, TV & VHS versions are reliable sources as long as they contain uncut versions.

And NTSC is not slower than cinema, it is in fact Pal which is faster than cinema.

NTSC has a frame rate which in the end is identical with the cinema frame rate of 24 fr/s. The runtime of a 229 min Blu is identical to the theatrical runtime.

Pal has a frame rate of 25 fr/s and is for that 4 % faster than a theatrical or a NTSC version. But you can always detect the theatrical runtime by adding 4%.
Anyway all uncut releases from the 80s to nowadays contain a 228 or 229 min version (Pal versions running 219 - 220 min).


Frayling mentions, just like D&D said, always a 229 min version in the film's chapter. The 218 min in the data part of his book is most likely a typo.
I have a new German book which lists a lot of theatrical versions and DVD/Blu versions from several European countries and all have the 228/9 min runtime.

Here's an overview over Uk versions: http://www.bbfc.co.uk/AFF014538/
The theatrical version from 1984 ran 228 min and 20 sec ( and was cut by 16 sec).

A film guide from 1985 says also 229 min.
But Oreste de Fornari's book has also the 218 min.

I assume there was some misinformation back in the 80s, and then then some sources quoted from this.




Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 27, 2012, 01:37:18 PM


I like Frayling and he would be my number one choice for the commentary on the Blu-ray of a fully restored version of OUATIA.  Something To Do With Death is a massive undertaking and source of information and would have involved a lot of hard work and research.

Regrettably it contains many errors and misunderstandings quite apart from running times.

An obvious example is P.430: "Noodles leaves New York in 1933 (shuffling off to Buffalo, by train)"

So in the movie Noodles goes to a Bus, Ferry & Train Terminal.  He walks to a kiosk marked Green Bus Line.  He speaks to a vendor wearing a Green Bus Line badge and purchases a ticket to Buffalo.  Quite specifically he says "First Bus".  There are three arrows, one points in the direction of the ferry, one in the direction of the trains and one in the direction of the buses.  Noodles heads off in the direction of the arrow marked buses.  Nevertheless some board members still agree with Frayling that Noodles catches a train.  Hmmm.


True, Noodles clearly takes a bus, and I never understood why Frayling says "train."


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on April 27, 2012, 01:58:47 PM
it's just that the final scene with the end music and the words "Once Upon a Time in the West" that were changed and the "Scorcese version" never fixed; but it's not that any of the actual movie footage from the original theatrical release is missing, no?



Well, we had tried to make this clear somewhere in the OUTW section of this forum. There are about 70 sec missing in the first scene, from which Scorsese only restored 15 sec. And the so called Rising scene was never part of all uncut original theatrical versions.
And, yes, Scorsese not even fixed the obviously wrong music in the last 90 sec of the film.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 27, 2012, 03:13:55 PM
Well, we had tried to make this clear somewhere in the OUTW section of this forum. There are about 70 sec missing in the first scene, from which Scorsese only restored 15 sec.

Did Leone necessarily want all that in the first scene? Was all the extra time in the first scene in the original Italian release?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on April 28, 2012, 02:07:18 AM
Did Leone necessarily want all that in the first scene? Was all the extra time in the first scene in the original Italian release?

Why not? He never complained about the theatrical version.
And yes, at the moment there is no doubt for me that all released versions in Italy, France, Germany and other countries were the same version, which was also prepared at first uncut for the USA and the UK before the film was cut down to 144 respective 145 min.


Here's a scan of the detailed article which explains how it could happen that the Paramount version is not exactly identical to the original theatrical version
http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=10564.0



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: MatViola on April 28, 2012, 12:58:09 PM
http://www.fibre2fashion.com/news/fashion-news/newsdetails.aspx?news_id=110538



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on April 29, 2012, 04:12:47 AM
the jist of which is this paragraph:

The film, Leone’s last, originally premiered out of competition at Cannes in 1984, at 229 minutes, the same version of which was released in European theaters that spring. The newly restored version to premiere this year at Cannes brings Leone’s masterpiece back to life, featuring roughly 20 minutes of additional scenes that have never before been seen by audiences. Through the work of The Film Foundation and through funding by Gucci, Cineteca di Bologna and L’Immagine Ritrovata are restoring the 229-minute version utilizing the original camera negative held by the US rightsholder, Regency Enterprises, along with the over 20 minutes of additional footage found and preserved by the Leone family.

sounds like a total of 40 minutes, hummmmmm. :D


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on April 29, 2012, 04:18:23 AM
Sounds like a total of 20 min ;)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on April 29, 2012, 04:25:08 AM
Its says: "featuring roughly 20 minutes of additional scenes that have never before been seen by audiences."

then below : "along with the over 20 minutes of additional footage found and preserved by the Leone family."

Its either poor writing or 40 minutes. Take your pick  ;)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 29, 2012, 05:12:51 AM
so withoput getting into all the technical stuff about the difference between PAL and NTSC, is it correct to say that, in a nutshell,  the movie that was shown at Cannes and European theaters in in 1984 was basically the exact same version as what we currently have on region 1 dvd?

if so, and assuming it is correct that only 25 minutes will now be restored, can we assume that when the restored version is released on Region 1 dvd, it will be 254 minutes?


--------------

As we've discussed many times, Frayling cites Leone (pp. 458-456 of STDWD) saying that his ideal running time would have been "between 4:10 -- 4:25" but he very reluctantly cut 45-50 minutes of  "significant material."
The math seems a tad off: 45-50 minutes added to 3:49 would make the movie between 4:34 -- 4:39, not 4:10 -- 4:25. Be that as it may, at this link http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=1302.msg146836#msg146836 I listed the scenes that Frayling says were cut, and I think we all believe the restored scenes will be from those scenes, if not all.

Anyway, (assuming Frayling's story is correct,  and assuming that there aren't technical problems like damaged tape) it seems strange to me that Leone's kids and Scorcese, et. al. would want to restore the movie, yet not to the full amount that Leone would have wanted it. I mean, even if theoretically they believe that some of those scenes are bad and don't belong, wouldn't it make the most sense that they would want to advance Leone's vision of the ideal version of the movie, rather than their own opinion of the ideal version? Even if let's say there are a few bad scenes among them, I think they would want to show it Leone wanted it, without regard for their own opinions of those scenes.

p.s. In that post I linked to above, where I made a numbered listed of those scenes that were cut, and mentioned the ones I think are most important to be restored are 2,3,5,6, and 8...  

Well I want to know your opinion of that: Write the numbers of  the scenes from the list list that you feel are most important to have restored!
(probably so that you can set yourself up for disappointment when those turn out to NOT be among the restored scenes  :'()


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 29, 2012, 06:02:54 AM
The experts seem to agree that the longer version (269-270 mins) has never been shown to the public. So yes, ignoring the running times, the movie that went around Europe had more or less the same content albeit with very minor differences. For example I think some seconds depicting graphic violence were taken out of the English release.

And yes, provided only 25 minutes or so is added to the movie when it's released on disc, the running time of an NTSC DVD or Blu-ray should be about 255 minutes.






(yeah I know that about 2 minutes were removed from the movie in England prints due to violence; according to Frayling, Leone himself oversaw the removal of those 2 minutes. But I am not worried about that essentially considering that 2:27 v version).

I just want to ascertain is what the running time will be when it is released on Region 1 dvd: If that official Cannes article is correct that the restored scenes will total 25 minutes, and if the dvd will have the exact version of the movie that is shown at Cannes, then we can expect that when that glorious day comes that we get the dvd and stick it into our players and finally begin watching it, we will have a 4:14 movie



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on April 29, 2012, 06:17:13 AM
so withoput getting into all the technical stuff about the difference between PAL and NTSC, is it correct to say that, in a nutshell,  the movie that was shown at Cannes and European theaters in in 1984 was basically the exact same version as what we currently have on region 1 dvd?



Yes ...


so withoput getting into all the technical stuff about the difference between PAL and NTSC, is it correct to say that, in a nutshell,  the movie that was shown at Cannes and European theaters in in 1984 was basically the exact same version as what we currently have on region 1 dvd?

if so, and assuming it is correct that only 25 minutes will now be restored, can we assume that when the restored version is released on Region 1 dvd, it will be 254 minutes?


--------------

As we've discussed many times, Frayling cites Leone (pp. 458-456 of STDWD) saying that his ideal running time would have been "between 4:10 -- 4:25" but he very reluctantly cut 45-50 minutes of  "significant material."
The math seems a tad off: 45-50 minutes added to 3:49 would make the movie between 4:34 -- 4:39, not 4:10 -- 4:25. Be that as it may, at this link http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=1302.msg146836#msg146836 I listed the scenes that Frayling says were cut, and I think we all believe the restored scenes will be from those scenes, if not all.

Anyway, (assuming Frayling's story is correct,  and assuming that there aren't technical problems like damaged tape) it seems strange to me that Leone's kids and Scorcese, et. al. would want to restore the movie, yet not to the full amount that Leone would have wanted it. I mean, even if theoretically they believe that some of those scenes are bad and don't belong, wouldn't it make the most sense that they would want to advance Leone's vision of the ideal version of the movie, rather than their own opinion of the ideal version? Even if let's say there are a few bad scenes among them, I think they would want to show it Leone wanted it, without regard for their own opinions of those scenes.



Leone's statements about how much was cut and what the ideal runtime is shouldn't be taken too verbatim. In the end he never made that ideal version, so he himself may only have guessed how much was lost if he had the chance to fine-cut the stock.

I have here an interview which was made in Germany in 1984. Leone mentions again a 270 min version as his favourite length and expresses his hope that "in 2 1/2 or 3 years the Italian TV may show it", but he does not know if this is possible because of the film's producer. Well, it never happened.

I'm definitely sure that reinserting only 25 min is much less than Leone wanted. But with so much different statements about the new version we won't be sure until it actually was screened at Cannes.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on April 29, 2012, 06:19:09 AM
Its says: "featuring roughly 20 minutes of additional scenes that have never before been seen by audiences."

then below : "along with the over 20 minutes of additional footage found and preserved by the Leone family."

Its either poor writing or 40 minutes. Take your pick  ;)

I read it without any doubt as twice naming the same 20 min.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: MatViola on April 29, 2012, 07:43:55 AM
What I’d like to know is why a year ago Raffaella was saying that adding 40 minutes would constitute the “director’s cut” and now, when it appears only 25 minutes have been added, she’s still saying “it will be wonderful to see the restored version on the big screen and with the additional footage of the original director's cut.” Did Leone’s ghost appear between then and now and instruct her to remove 15 minutes?

Of course, I don’t think the Leone children can be trusted when it comes to what constitutes the “director’s cut”, considering that 2 or 3 years ago when all of this was first announced Raffaella said “in collaboration with Sky we want to restore forty minutes of new scenes that we have found. Mind you, we will not reassemble the film; it will stay what my father did. We’d love to show, however, perhaps in a screening at a festival, this interesting footage.”

So, originally they weren’t planning to insert the 40 minutes into the existing film at all, then a year or so later suddenly the plan was to insert the 40 minutes and declare it the “director’s cut”, and now, when all is said and done (maybe), only 25 out of those 40 minutes actually belong in the “director’s cut.”

Apparently Sergio’s ghost can’t make up his mind.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 29, 2012, 04:58:40 PM
the jist of which is this paragraph:

The film, Leone’s last, originally premiered out of competition at Cannes in 1984, at 229 minutes, the same version of which was released in European theaters that spring. The newly restored version to premiere this year at Cannes brings Leone’s masterpiece back to life, featuring roughly 20 minutes of additional scenes that have never before been seen by audiences. Through the work of The Film Foundation and through funding by Gucci, Cineteca di Bologna and L’Immagine Ritrovata are restoring the 229-minute version utilizing the original camera negative held by the US rightsholder, Regency Enterprises, along with the over 20 minutes of additional footage found and preserved by the Leone family.

sounds like a total of 40 minutes, hummmmmm. :D

the second sentence says "... along with the over 20 minutes of additional footage..." So "the" means it is referring to the footage that was just mentioned previously. I have no doubt that this article is referring to a total of 20 minutes of new footage, not 40.

Anyway, if it really will only be 20 or 25 minutes, I hope they'd put the other 20-25 minutes (comprising the rest of the 45-50 minutes that Leone wanted to have in the movie, according to Frayling) on the dvd, at least as an extra. But I won't expect that.

I am really befuddled as to why after all these years, when this great moment happens that they will restore Leone's movie, they wouldn't restore all the scenes Leone wanted in it


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on April 30, 2012, 03:32:49 AM
Yea, there are a lot of possibilities and conundrums that the restores will be dealing with, maybe the 25 minutes is the limit of what they can do with what they got without changing the integrity of the film.  I guess we'll see.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 30, 2012, 06:10:56 AM
We definitely need another press release from Leone's children or somebody connected with Cannes or involved in the restoration process or Scorcese.

We are very much in the dark and it's possible that some of the film stock is damaged or poor quality and would look out of place.

We know that several scenes were filmed which wouldn't make much sense if simply inserted into the movie, e.g. Carol talking about how Eve died alone.   There's also known flaws such as two different number plates on the black limousine tailing Noodles, one filmed in New York and one at Pratica di Mare.

Ignoring minor quibbles on minutes and frame rates, Leone is reported to have made a 270 minute version, cut 50 minutes and made a 220 minute version.

It may not be that simple.

If these 50 minutes of cuts include scenes such as Carol talking about how Eve died alone and the black limousine, Leone didn't simply cut out 50 minutes and put them to one side for his children to find later.  He re-edited parts of the movie to cover over the cracks (he reportedly had ten hours of footage to play with) and to enable the 220 minute version to make sense.

Leone doesn't use voice overs much but after Max knocks out Noodles to stop him going on the gang's last job, we cut to the Bailey Foundation and Carol's voice saying "Max made fools of us Noodles..." This is dialog from a deleted scene (SCENE 148).  For much of the scene that follows we don't see close-ups of Carol speaking her dialog and it's quite possible (and easy for an experienced editor) that this was edited after Leone had completed his 270 minute version.  If so, the original may have been destroyed and simply inserting the scene of Carol talking about how Eve died alone wouldn't make sense.

I was extremely disappointed when I heard that they'd only added in 25 minutes but perhaps they had no other choice and it would be great to see the 25 minutes they didn't use as an extra on a futute DVD or Blu-ray.


(Firstly, I just wanna say that the bottom line is that the only version we currently have on dvd is 229 minutes. I don't know about the 220 minute version that may or may not originally been shown at Cannes and/or in theaters, whether it was less time or just due to PAL/NTSC differences. But the bottom line is that the only version of OUATIA that is currently on dvd and that all of us are familiar with is the 229 minute-version. So just a respectful suggestion, I'd refer to it as the "current version" or the "229-minute version" rather than continually referring to it as the 220-minute version, which may continue to confuse everyone and perhaps continue the conversation about technical differences between running times of PAL-NTSC, but doesn't affect the continuing discussion of the upcoming restored version. I think the main issue is how many minutes will be added to the new version from the current 229-minute version version we have on dvd, not how many minutes were or weren't in the European theatrical version in 1984. I am not saying I am doubting your sources; I am just saying that I think that since our concern now is how many minutes will be added to the version we have on dvd, it may be more easily understood if we simply refer to it as the "current version" or "229-minute version," rather than the "220 minute version." Just a respectful suggestion  O0 )

--------------------------
Anyway, that's enough out of me about the running time of the current version. Moving on.....

 are you sure that the scene where Carol tells Noodles that Eve died alone -- I think by overdosing with pills -- was shot? I know it was in at least one version of the script, but obviously makes no sense cuz we know that Eve is shot in the first scene. [Theoretically, you could take it all a step further  and say it is not impossible to explain it away by saying that Carol was mistaken about Eve's death; that Carol is an unreliable storyteller -- eg. we know she is wrong about Max --; or that the discrepancies are all part of the opium dream, but I think that may be too far. It's probably best to say that the script changed; or perhaps Leone deliberately shot it different ways, cuz he wasn't sure how he wanted it to be, and intended to deal with it during editing.
Heck, I just thought of something else: maybe Leone really wanted to have it that Eve died alone with the pills, but when he realized he wouldn't have money for his fancy credit sequence and that he'd be using very simple credit titles, he decided he needed to open with a BANG and changed the script to have a shocking killing in the opening scene!! ;)]

Of course, considering that "Leone had ten hours of usable footage in the can" (STDWD, p. 458), it is very possible that different versions of certain plot points were shot, again either because the script was re-written on set, or because Leone deliberately intended to leave himself many options in the editing room. So even if a different version of Eve's death was indeed shot, that wouldn't bother me in the least bit. (On p. 459 when Frayling lists the 45-50 minutes of "significant material" that Leone cut to get the film down to 229 minutes -- which we have presumed will be the footage that is at least partially restored -- he says that among the scenes that were removed are  "Tuesday Weld as Cariol, telling Noodles about Max's syphilis from her rest home."Frayling makes no specific mention of Carol telling Noodles about Eve's death; while this doesn't necessarily mean it's not there, cuz Frayling doesn't quote those scenes word for word, it seems to me that it doesn't make much sense that Leone would have ever intended to include that scene in the final cut, considering that we see Eve getting killed in the opening scene.

Therefore, although the scene with Carol talking about Eve's death may have been shot initially, I am pretty confident in saying that by the time Leone was ready to release the movie, that part would not have been in there, even if the studio had allowed Leone to release as long a movie as he wanted to


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 30, 2012, 07:34:54 AM
Pardon - I can't believe what you're saying, drinkanddestroy or your definition of "we".

I have 2 DVD versions of OUATIA, both with running times of approx 220 minutes, similar to the one described on the following web site:

http://msb247.awardspace.com/dvd.htm (http://msb247.awardspace.com/dvd.htm)

I also have a VHS tape with a stated running time of 218 minutes together with several other versions.



I had never heard of a 220-minute version before, and the reason I wrote "we" is because judging by the comments here, it seems like none of the others have, either. But of course I am not saying that you are wrong about it.

According A1's website which you posted the link to, it seems the difference between the 220-minute and the 229-minute versions is entirely due to PAL vs. NTSC. So it's the exact same version of the movie, ie. there is nothing that is in one version and not the other, right? That's fine.

But in your initial post re: this, http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=1302.msg156003#msg156003
you said that most "reliable sources contradict" the assertion that the version originally released in Europe was 229 minutes. I took that statement of yours to mean that according to reliable sources, the version originally released in Europe was different than the version we in America currently have on dvd. ie. There are some things that are in one version and not in the other, and not simply that it's the same version but with a different running time due to PAL vs. NTSC. But if I am wrong, and you meant that the film looks exactly the same, just different run times due to PAL vs. NTSC, then sorry I misunderstood  :-[




Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on April 30, 2012, 12:02:31 PM
Once, the DVDs you have are Pal versions. All runtimes in books and papers normally mention only the theatrical runtime

So again, even if in some books the theatrical runtime is given with 218 -220 min, I have never come across any uncut version shorter than the 227 -229 min. And in most sources I have the runtime is already given with 227 - 229 min. And I have never read anything that there was any difference in any country between the theatrical version of 1984, the than following VHS versions and the current DVD and Blu versions. Maybe there are some small differences how long the film runs after the credits or if there was some intermission music which one version has and the other not. But only maybe.

Well, you never know, but I'm 99% sure that there never was any uncut 218 or 220 min version (except the Pal ones, but which are then not different in their content)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 30, 2012, 05:12:38 PM
Either way, if the difference between the 220-minute version  and the 229-minute version is entirely due to the PAL/NTSC, and there is zero difference in content, then I wouldn't even refer to as "different versions of the movie"; the bottom line is that it is the exact same movie  :)

However, I just checked what ONCE cited, p. 541 of STDWD the "Complete Filmography" section, and it says:

"Running Times: It 218 mins, GB 228 mins, US 139 mins; US restored print 227 mins"

But if the shorter running time of the Europan version was due to the PAL/NTSC, then why is only the Italian version shorter, while the GB version is the same as the American? Does GB use NTSC? (If UK and Italy both use PAL, then this would indicate that the Italian version was indeed shorter than the UK version, so the are in fact two different versions of the movie, and not the same version just with different running times due to PAL/NTSC).


(p.s. I am not gonna focus on the difference between 218 min vs. 220 min., or 227 vs. 228; that sort of shit can be attributed to the cutting of  a minute or two of violence, or perhaps not counting the credits, or counting what is actually 228 minutes & 40 seconds simply as 228 minutes or 229 minutes. So I am not in any way concerned about on 227 vs. 229; or 218 vs. 220, etc. we're just focusing on what we are calling the 220 minute version vs. the 229 minute version  :) )



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on May 01, 2012, 01:45:15 AM
Either way, if the difference between the 220-minute version  and the 229-minute version is entirely due to the PAL/NTSC, and there is zero difference in content, then I wouldn't even refer to as "different versions of the movie"; the bottom line is that it is the exact same movie  :)

However, I just checked what ONCE cited, p. 541 of STDWD the "Complete Filmography" section, and it says:

"Running Times: It 218 mins, GB 228 mins, US 139 mins; US restored print 227 mins"

But if the shorter running time of the Europan version was due to the PAL/NTSC, then why is only the Italian version shorter, while the GB version is the same as the American? Does GB use NTSC? (If UK and Italy both use PAL, then this would indicate that the Italian version was indeed shorter than the UK version, so the are in fact two different versions of the movie, and not the same version just with different running times due to PAL/NTSC).



We're not talking here about Pal runtimes. All the sources of Once are mentioning a theatrical runtime (identical to a NTSC runtime). In that case there must be 2 versions of OUTA. But I have never heard of any differences between the released versions.



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on May 01, 2012, 02:01:03 AM
I'm sure we'll all fed up with this debate on the theatrical running time in Italy and as drinkanddestroy says, it detracts from discussing the cuts and reasons why the promised 270 min version has not happened.

Feel free to dismiss as rubbish the written down quoted times of Cahiers Du Cinema (1984), Sergio Leone (1984), Andrea Leone, Oreste de Fornari, Frayling (STDWD P.541) and by deduction the official Cannes Festival site.



... and the running time quoted on the PAL DVD.
But yeah my guess is that we're actually discussing about the exact same version:
220 x 104% = 228.8 (also known as "229 min")
(104% is the coefficient of the infamous PAL Speedup)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on May 01, 2012, 03:39:05 AM
I was reading an article recently that said the reason the version with Italian audio was shorter was that Italians are very animated and speak very quickly...Hmmm

I don't think the Italian theatrical release had shortened content so really the only other variable is frame rate or skipping frames.  I know that some sites say the recognized worldwide rate is 24 frames per second but perhaps it's not entirely correct.  I used to have a foreign film projector...


No, there are not such differences. Except for the silent film area all film run with 24 pic/sec. All runtimes of Italian films are identical to those which were screened elsewhere.

Then again. We have here 2 different possible runtimes which were quoted in books, interviews, magazines etc. . But, except for obviously cut versions, I have never read anything about 2 different versions of OUTA. Conclusion: one of the 2 runtimes is most likely wrong.
All the versions we have on VHS, DVD, Blu are in the end the 229 min version. And if we have a runtime based on the actual lenght in meters, it is also the 229 minversion. All books say that the Cannes version was 229 min, and that this version was released in every country which presented the film in its entirety.

As there is no actual evidence of this 220 min I can only assume there was some confusion of the actual runtime back in the 80s, maybe due to a simple typo (218 instead of 228) or something like that.

Once, why not just assume there is only the 229 min version we all know until we have an evidence for a shorter version which was also approved by Leone?
And btw (before I'm getting confused) which version was shorter in your opinion? Only the Italian release version?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on May 01, 2012, 07:43:00 AM
Once again, 220 min PAL = 229 min in 24fps or NTSC.
So what are we debating about?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on May 01, 2012, 08:09:09 AM
Once again, 220 min PAL = 229 min in 24fps or NTSC.
So what are we debating about?

Once thinks there was a 2nd theatrical version with a runtime of 220 min cause there are several books claiming it. A 2nd version which was approved by Leone .

Once, still if there was such a version there must have been some discussion anywhere about the differences to the 229 min version. But I never came across such a discussion, while every small difference in the other Leone films is widely discussed.  
Frayling has a 218 min version in the data part of his book, but he doesn't talk about such a version inside the book. It's always the 229 min version.
I never have read anything about differences between the Cannes version, the theatrical versions of 1984 and the actual DVD and Blu versions .

Harald Steinwender has researched the runtimes of the film from several key markets. But all the theatrical versions in France, Germany, Italy, GB and the USA have a 227 -229 min runtime. As have the DVDs. He also has the German VHS runtime of the late 80s and the TV runtime from the mid 90s (both were directly taken from a German 35 mm copy), and both also have the 229 min runtime.
The only explanation is that all the 220 min runtimes you have quoted are taken from a source which got it wrong. E.g. Cahiers du cinema surely haven't checked a theatrical copy, they took the information from another source, and that source must have made an simple error. It's the only explanation which makes sense to me.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 01, 2012, 02:16:12 PM
PAL & NTSC only relate to TV DVD etc. We are talking about Leone's original version shown in Cannes and in Italy.

Numerous sources quote the running time as 220 minutes, which makes sense of the statement that 25 minutes have been added bringing the total to 245 minutes.

Stanton is trying to convince me that Leone's original theatrical version shown in Italy was 229 minutes. Makes no sense to me.

so you are saying that the version shown in Cannes and Italy in 1984 were 9 minutes shorter than the version we all now have? (If so, do you know which scenes were removed? And more importantly,) if the Cannes article about the upcoming release is correct that it is 220 min + a new 25 mins. = 245 mins. total for the upcoming release, that means that in the upcoming version, those same 9 minutes will be removed. And that makes absolutely no sense. Even if it were true that the version released in Cannes and Italy in 1984 had 9 less minutes than the version we all now have, I find it very hard to believe that the new, restored version will add the new 25 minutes but remove those 9 minutes


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 01, 2012, 02:52:40 PM
How many more times drinkanddestroy?

No no no. I don't think 9 minutes have been cut from the 229 minute version.

My best guess is it's down to a faster frame rate or skipped frames.

Remember my comment on the aspect ratio 1.85 ?

Leone was thinking about how the movie would look on TV before any filming took place.

you just said that PAL vs. NTSC is only applicable to tv/dv, not theaters!

So if the 1984 theatrical version was only 220 minutes, and in theaters the shorter length cannot be attributed to the PAL vs. NTSC, then it has to be that scenes were cut. How can you say that the PAL/NTSC is only applicable to dvd's, yet say that the shorter length of the theatrical release was due to faster frame rate or skipped frames? Isn't faster frame rate referring to the PAL/NTSC issue? Or are you talking about faster frame rate that has nothing to do with PAL?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on May 01, 2012, 03:23:35 PM
I am no expert in frame rates. However, I am 98% sure that movie projectors in cinemas and big festivals have shown movies in 24fps and nothing else since this format became the norm in the 20's. I'm not saying it's technologically impossible for them to do otherwise (I have no idea, although the analog ones I saw when working in a theater a few years ago certainly could not), but I can tell you that if a film had been shown inn anything else that 24fps at Cannes in 1984, there would have been lots of talk about it. Just look at what happens with The Hobbit right now: it's the first feature film shot in 48fps, and journalists who have seen the 10min projection ONLY talk about the frame rate right now. I'd add that most wannabe film makers that are going for the "cinema look" right now all try to shoot in 24fps because it looks much more filmic to our eyes (because features have been shot and shown in 24fps for 100 years now, while other frame rates like 25 or 30 have only been used for TV and video). There is a lot of talk about frame rate right now in the movie business and the general concensus is that 24fps looks much more filmic than anything else. I'd be very surprised that someone like Leone, who definitely cared a lot about his images, would agree to show his baby in anything else than 24fps just like that. Of course, he might have preferred 25fps to 24fps because higher frame rates are more lively and more modern... But I don't buy it AND he would brag about it everywhere (just like Jackson is doing right now).

So I would be very very surprised if the version shown in Cannes in 1984 was shown in anything else than 24fps, which would mean a running time of 229 if they had the very same version we all own on DVD/BD.
Which leaves the question brought up by Once totally unanswered: what about these "3h40" running time that Leone and everyone else was talking about at the time?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on May 01, 2012, 03:38:49 PM
Which leaves the question brought up by Once totally unanswered: what about these "3h40" running time that Leone and everyone else was talking about at the time?

Was there a beginning Overture, was there an Entr'acte/intermission in the original release that was later omitted?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on May 01, 2012, 03:56:37 PM
Ah that's interesting: I just found a review of the 2 hours version, published in 1984.

Quote
''Once Upon a Time in America'' is not a disaster on the order of ''Heaven's Gate.'' Having been cut from 3 hours and 47 minutes, which was its running time at this year's Cannes Festival, to its present time of 2 hours and 15 minutes, it plays like a long, inscrutable trailer for what might have been an entertaining movie.

http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9801E1D6143BF932A35755C0A962948260


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on May 02, 2012, 01:42:31 AM
PAL & NTSC just confuse the issue. Movies can be shown with frame rates outside these standards.

They can, but they aren't. As Noodles has already said. This would be the first time ever that I have heard such a thing.

There are astonishingly much sources for that 220 min runtime, but there also as much sources for the 229 min runtime for the Cannes version. One must be wrong, and as we all have a 229 min version, and there was never any talk about added scenes to a 220 min version, or cut scenes from a 229 version (except censorical cuts), the only conclusion can be that all 220 min sources are most likely wrong.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on May 02, 2012, 01:46:59 AM


My best guess is it's down to a faster frame rate or skipped frames.

Remember my comment on the aspect ratio 1.85 ?

Leone was thinking about how the movie would look on TV before any filming took place.

Yes, but that relates only to the choice of the aspect ratio. Many films were made in these days in that aspect ratio because VHS and TV versions could than be shown in an open matte 1,33:1 aspect ratio.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 02, 2012, 01:48:01 AM
Ah that's interesting: I just found a review of the 2 hours version, published in 1984.

http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9801E1D6143BF932A35755C0A962948260


The only thing worse than the bastardized version flunking miserably with critics and at the box office, would have been if the bastardized version had actually done well, which may have caused people to actually think it was a legitimate version. As shameful as the bastardized version was, I am so glad that it was such a colossal failure at the box office and with the critics, for that ensured that there was zero doubt as to how completely illegitimate this version was, and that the 229-minute version would come to be seen as the only version with any legitimacy. So once the miserable human filth who will rot in hell bastards at The Ladd Company destroyed this film, it is wonderful that it failed so miserably.

I have never seen the bastardized version (and don't like even being reminded that it ever existed  >:(), but whenever I do think about it, it makes me so sad for Leone. Can you imagine how heartbroken he must have been after spending a decade and a half or so dedicating himself to what is basically his life's project, and having his work destroyed by the sons of bitches in the studio?? I just hope that he knew how much everyone loved the real version, despised the fake version, admired him and loathed The Ladd Co. And that he is smiling in heaven now at the upcoming release  :)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 02, 2012, 02:18:33 AM

There are astonishingly much sources for that 220 min runtime, but there also as much sources for the 229 min runtime for the Cannes version. One must be wrong, and as we all have a 229 min version, and there was never any talk about added scenes to a 220 min version, or cut scenes from a 229 version (except censorical cuts), the only conclusion can be that all 220 min sources are most likely wrong.

But as we've mentioned, Frayling says, in the same line (in the Filmography on p. 541), that the Italian version was 218 mins., the UK was 228, and the USA restored print was 227. I find it hard to believe that in the very same line, he would get the USA and GB running times correct, but the Italian running time would (conveniently for us) have a typo -- especially considering all those other sources that Once provided for there being a 220-minute version.

Frayling also says in the OUATIA chapter of STDWD, (on the bottom of p. 460), that the version that screened at Cannes was the 229-minute version.

Therefore, I think it is reasonable to say that ten minutes must have been removed for Italian theaters.

So I will propose that the 1984 releases of the movie were as follows: (this is all a guess, but I think it makes sense):

The bastardized version was released in America;
The "Full Version" (ie. 227-229 mins.) played at Cannes and in the UK;
while for the Italian release, ten minutes were removed from the Full Version.

However, when the film was restored to the Full Version for release on home video, they decided to released that full version on all home video everywhere, including Italy, even though though ten minutes had been removed for Italian theaterical screenings.
(Considering that they released the Full Version on American home video even though the American theatrical version was 85 minutes shorter, is it hard to imagine that they would release the Full Version on Italian home video even though the Italian theatrical version was 10 minutes shorter?


I think this is all a very reasonable possibility considering everything we have discussed... but there is one thing that bothers me about it: The only place that Frayling mentions this 218-minute Italian version is in the Filmography; it is not mentioned anywhere in the OUATIA chapter, even though that chapter has extensive discussions on various running times; Frayling even specifically mentions that for the UK, two minutes of violence were cut (overseen by Leone), so the running time was slightly shorter than the "Fulll Version"; it was 227 mins. Now, if my proposition above is correct, it is very hard to imagine that Frayling would not have specifically mentioned that ten minutes were cut for the Italian release. Even though he does mention in the Filmography that the Italian version was 218 mins., the Filmography is just a brief source for reference, and he certainly should have mentioned it explicitly in the body of the book. That is way too important a point for Frayling to neglect to mention it in the OUATIA chapter, and therefore it makes me seriously doubt whether my proposition is correct.



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on May 02, 2012, 05:52:18 AM
Phew, now things get pretty tricky.

I have asked an Italian, but his answer adds probably to the confusion:

"I've only ever heard of the 229 min. version, but some bibliographic sources report a 227 minutes runtime and according to the website videoarcheologia.it, usually quite reliable, unlike the Warner Blu-ray and Region 1 DVD the redubbed Italian DVD edition - distributed by the same company - would have an actual runtime of "only" 224 minutes (215 PAL). But I cannot confirm."

Steinwender has researched the Italian version with 229 min.

When I check the www most articles still mention the 269 min version for Cannes this year.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 02, 2012, 07:23:56 AM
Phew, now things get pretty tricky.

I have asked an Italian, but his answer adds probably to the confusion:

"I've only ever heard of the 229 min. version, but some bibliographic sources report a 227 minutes runtime and according to the website videoarcheologia.it, usually quite reliable, unlike the Warner Blu-ray and Region 1 DVD the redubbed Italian DVD edition - distributed by the same company - would have an actual runtime of "only" 224 minutes (215 PAL). But I cannot confirm."

Steinwender has researched the Italian version with 229 min.

When I check the www most articles still mention the 269 min version for Cannes this year.

as I said in a previous post, I wouldn't concern myself with the 227 mins. vs. 229 minutes issue. Frayling says a couple of minutes was cut for the UK release, just to trim some violence, but overseen and approved by Leone. So that's why some are 227 mins. And it's actually 228 mins and 40 seconds, so some may refer to it as 228 while some may use 229. The point is, I am not at all concerned with the issue of 227 vs. 229. I consider that ONE version. I am concerned over the issue of Version A (227-229 mins) vs. Version B (218-220 mins).
(Once you start focusing minute by minute, there could be ten different versions, cuz each country could have cut a different minute of violence). I think the focus should just be on the 227-229 minute Version on the one hand; and the 218-220 minute version on the other


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on May 02, 2012, 07:41:53 AM
+1 for D&D
Especially since NTSC is not exactly 24fps so on such a long movie the difference exists:

229min in 24fps = 227.7min in NTSC


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on May 02, 2012, 12:18:05 PM
Noodles, we are not talking here about NTSC and Pal runtimes.

We are only talking here about cinema runtimes.

In none of my posts have I used the term 2nd theatrical version or 2nd version.  According to Sergio Leone, he cut 50 minutes from his 270 minute version and made a 220 minute (3hr 40) version.  This may or may not be the version that was shown in theaters in Italy or at Cannes.

I've found a couple of further direct comments on the running time from Sergio Leone confirming this.  I'm sceptical of newspaper and magazine writers, who in reality know very little about Sergio Leone or the movie. For the moment I'm sticking with the director of the movie, his family, official sources and Leone experts and perhaps in the next couple of months we'll get information which will clarify things.


Normally you are right, but in that case is the explanation that Leone simply got it wrong the most likely one.

Frankly said I'm a bit confused now. If there ain't a 2nd version, than what's the point? We definitely have a 229 min version. And despite your sources, most if not all other sources only have that 229 min version.

??????


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on May 02, 2012, 02:30:57 PM
Once, where do you live?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on May 02, 2012, 02:41:41 PM
Noodles, we are not talking here about NTSC and Pal runtimes.

Yeah but some of the figures quoted here and there throughout the topic come from DVD running times, or versions watched on TV.
Anyway the point is to say there might be a 229 and a 220 version, but we don't care about 227 and 218 micro changes.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on May 05, 2012, 05:09:01 AM
Pardon - I can't believe what you're saying, drinkanddestroy or your definition of "we".

I have 2 DVD versions of OUATIA, both with running times of approx 220 minutes, similar to the one described on the following web site:

http://msb247.awardspace.com/dvd.htm (http://msb247.awardspace.com/dvd.htm)

I also have a VHS tape with a stated running time of 218 minutes together with several other versions.

I swear I first saw this on a flat letterbox DVD. I definitely saw it before the special edition that's currently in circulation cmae out. Can't recall the run time though.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: MatViola on May 05, 2012, 09:45:55 AM
Drinkanddestroy - "And that he is smiling in heaven now at the upcoming release."


On the other hand, he may be frowning upon the upcoming release, given what he wrote shortly before his death:

“Then there is the very long one that has never been edited and which lasts fifty minutes longer. Four and a half hours. But we rejected the idea of two parts on TV. It is so intricate that it has to be done in one evening. And besides, let’s be honest: this one is my version. The other perhaps explained things more clearly and it could have been done on TV in two or three parts. But the version that I prefer is this one, that bit of reclusiveness is just what I like about it.”

Notice also that he said the extra 50 minutes were never edited.

Mat


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on May 05, 2012, 09:54:41 AM
Actually earlier plan was a film consisting of 2 parts with a 180 min runtime each. That's 360 min. Oh well ...


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on May 05, 2012, 02:45:22 PM
Drinkanddestroy - "And that he is smiling in heaven now at the upcoming release."


On the other hand, he may be frowning upon the upcoming release, given what he wrote shortly before his death:

“Then there is the very long one that has never been edited and which lasts fifty minutes longer. Four and a half hours. But we rejected the idea of two parts on TV. It is so intricate that it has to be done in one evening. And besides, let’s be honest: this one is my version. The other perhaps explained things more clearly and it could have been done on TV in two or three parts. But the version that I prefer is this one, that bit of reclusiveness is just what I like about it.”

Notice also that he said the extra 50 minutes were never edited.

Mat

Thanks Mat - where's the quote from?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: MatViola on May 05, 2012, 04:08:23 PM
It's from Oreste De Fornari's 'Sergio Leone: The Great Italian Dream of Legendary America.' Leone discusses each of his films in a chapter called "Leone on Leone." The comments come from an interview De Fornari did with Leone in 1988.

Mat


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: MatViola on May 06, 2012, 06:42:22 AM
There could be a misunderstanding on "that has never been edited".  My best guess is that Sergio Leone did a 270 minute version which had sound and was very roughly put together (edited). It may have had several bits that needed further editing to produce a final cut such as the mismatch of the number plates and Carol's scenes in the nursing home.  This may partly explain why we are only getting a further 25 minutes.   

I hope you’re right, Once. Were that true I’d feel slightly better about this restoration. But I have my doubts. When Leone says the footage “has never been edited” I’m not sure what else he could mean other than that the footage has never been edited. And Leone’s children didn’t say they found a “270 minute cut” or a “four-and-a-half hour cut.” They said they found 40 minutes of additional footage. When this was all first announced a few years ago, Raffaella said, “we want to restore forty minutes of new scenes that we have found. Mind you, we will not reassemble the film; it will stay what my father did.”

The common perception that Leone actually assembled a 270 minute cut might be a myth. Once upon a time, in 1984 to be exact, Leone planned to edit the 50 minutes into the 229 version at a later date, but he never got around to doing it.

At least that’s what it sounds like to me.

Mat


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on May 06, 2012, 07:33:59 AM
That's what I think too. The 270 min version was never constructed. And all of Leone's claims about that version are only a rough guess how long the longer version would be after the fine-cutting. Which also means there was no music for these scenes. Which also means if re-constructed by someone else, different choices would have been made for the final version.

Like with the Seydor-cut of Pat Garrett. Some of his choices would nobody else have done except himself.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 06, 2012, 08:26:02 AM
based on what Frayling says, it seems that the 45-50 extra minutes Leone would have preferred to keep in the movie were complete, not unedited. We've quoted that p. 458 of STDWD many times, how Leone said he had to cut 45-50 minutes of "significant material" to get the movie down to 229 minutes. It would seem to me that cutting 45-50 minutes of "significant material" would means "significant material that was ready for release," and NOT "significant unedited raw footage which may only be 15-20 minutes once edited for release."
of course, that gives no indication one way or another as to whether those extra scenes were scored; and if necessary, dubbed. But IMO it definitely seems that the picture was in relatively, edited, releasable condition.

On the other hand, on the same page, just before saying that Leone had to very reluctantly cut between 45-50 minuted worth of "significant material," Frayling quotes Leone as saying that "his ideal running time would have been between 4:10 and 4:25"

Now, if his ideal running time would have been between 4:10 and 4:25, then in order to get down to 3:49, he would have had to cut between 21-36 minutes off his ideal running time, and not the 45-50 minutes!! When I brought up this issue a while ago, someone  it may have been ONCE, don't remember for sure) suggested that at that point, Leone was just giving very approximate numbers of the running times.

However, I'd prefer to think that Leone (and Frayling) were being accurate about the number of minutes. So perhaps we can answer that question along these same lines of the issue of raw footage vs. edited footage: Maybe we can say those 45-50 mins. of "significant material" was actually not edited footage, but footage that was in the raw stages, and it would have yielded about 21-36 minutes of final, usable footage.

So had he been able to actually use those 45-50 minutes of "significant material," that he ideally would have wanted to use, that amount of raw footage it would have would have yielded 21-36 minutes of final, usable footage, equaling a final cut of 4:10 - 4:25.


Of course, this is a very, very, very unsatisfying answer: when Frayling says that Leone had to cut 45-50 minutes of "significant material," I imagine he meant final, releasable material. So (assuming Frayling is reporting it accurately), I really don't know how Leone could say his ideal running time would have been between 4:10 and 4:25, had he been able to use those 45-50 minutes. Adding the 45-50 minutes to 3:49 should have equaled an ideal running time of 4:34 -- 4:39, and not 4:10 - 4:25. Neither suggested answer  -- that their numbers of minutes mentioned were approximate; and that the material was unedited and not final, releasable material --  is very satisfying. (Heck, maybe I can't accept those answers cuz deep deep down, I am sooooo badly hoping that somehow, there is some 5-hour version or sumthin  ;) )

--------------


Anyway, We really need someone to get in touch with someone IN THE KNOW and find out what's going on.... ;)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on May 06, 2012, 09:45:55 AM
That's what I think too. The 270 min version was never constructed. And all of Leone's claims about that version are only a rough guess how long the longer version would be after the fine-cutting. Which also means there was no music for these scenes. Which also means if re-constructed by someone else, different choices would have been made for the final version.

Like with the Seydor-cut of Pat Garrett. Some of his choices would nobody else have done except himself.

Good point!

I'm definitely not a fan of this kind of tinkering unless the instructions by the director are very explicit (as in the case of Orson Welles' "Touch of Evil" for example) and at least some kind of approximation can be made. For me the definitive version of Pat Garrett is Peckinpah's rough cut (i.e. the TCM '88 version with the scene with Garrett's wife added back in).


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on May 06, 2012, 09:50:11 AM
It's from Oreste De Fornari's 'Sergio Leone: The Great Italian Dream of Legendary America.' Leone discusses each of his films in a chapter called "Leone on Leone." The comments come from an interview De Fornari did with Leone in 1988.

Ah right, thanks. I must have read it myself then at some point, because I have read and very much enjoyed that book - the library near where I used to live happened to have a copy.



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on May 06, 2012, 10:06:26 AM
Good point!

I'm definitely not a fan of this kind of tinkering unless the instructions by the director are very explicit (as in the case of Orson Welles' "Touch of Evil" for example) and at least some kind of approximation can be made. For me the definitive version of Pat Garrett is Peckinpah's rough cut (i.e. the TCM '88 version with the scene with Garrett's wife added back in).

I prefer the Seydor cut, despite some big flaws.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: MatViola on May 06, 2012, 11:32:28 AM
Quote
We really need someone to get in touch with someone IN THE KNOW and find out what's going?

Was there anyone more in the know than Leone?

"Then there is the very long one that has never been edited and which lasts fifty minutes longer."

 Straight from the lion's mouth, so to speak.

Mat


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 06, 2012, 11:42:16 AM
Was there anyone more in the know than Leone?

"Then there is the very long one that has never been edited and which lasts fifty minutes longer."

 Straight from the lion's mouth, so to speak.

Mat

yeah, but is that necessarily  the one that is going to be released now?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on May 06, 2012, 12:05:16 PM
Which one else?

All in all, why not simply stop speculating and wait until it was screened in Cannes? Which is not that far now.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on May 06, 2012, 01:04:08 PM
Which one else?

All in all, why not simply stop speculating and wait until it was screened in Cannes? Which is not that far now.

Agreed the speculations are now driving me nuts  :D


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 06, 2012, 05:29:14 PM
we've tried that a few times, but it didn't take. We're gonna keep speculating till the movie screens at Cannes. Then we're gonna speculate about the dvd.... ;)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on May 06, 2012, 05:41:36 PM
we are just beating a dead horse at the moment.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 06, 2012, 07:06:28 PM
wtf are message boards for?  ;)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on May 06, 2012, 07:53:43 PM
but its getting redundant and boring.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 06, 2012, 09:30:57 PM
but its getting redundant and boring.

too bad you're a moderator and have to read every post....  ;)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 07, 2012, 08:10:20 AM
There is a fairly obvious not yet discussed scenario which makes sense of most of the conflicting information.   Regrettably though this does mean that unless more material is added, the running time of the new "fully restored" NTSC DVD and Blu-ray will be 245 minutes.

so all this excitement for just 16 extra minutes?

That would be about this biggest downer I could ever imagine   :'(


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on May 07, 2012, 09:34:02 AM
Going from 50 to 16minutes is a huge downer. But don't forget the main point: 16 unreleased minutes shot by Leone/delli colli would still be the greatest news of the year :)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on May 07, 2012, 11:37:28 AM
So you mean the very worst case scenario is that we could only get 25 minutes of unreleased scenes that does not works very well with the version we know? I'll still buy the BD and dance naked in the streets if that's what happens (as long as the new scenes are better than the grotto scene).


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: MatViola on May 07, 2012, 11:53:17 AM
Once - my comments had not a whit to do with running times. My only concern is whether the new footage, however much there is, had already been edited. Leone's comment explicitly states it never was.

Mat


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 07, 2012, 01:09:24 PM
true, if we'd been told a few years ago that we'd get an extra 16 minutes, we'd say it was the best news of the year. But after expecting 45-50 minutes, 16 minutes is a downer. o well, we'll have to wait and see.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on May 07, 2012, 01:24:44 PM
I don't regard it as simply 16 minutes being added.

Of all the people in the world Leone should know best the running of time of his original version in 1984.  He and many others with first hand knowledge said his original version was 3hrs 40 (220 minutes).

Cahiers said that after Cannes, the movie went round theaters in France then went to Italy. According to Oreste De Fornari and Frayling the running time of the theatrical version in Italy was 218 minutes. At some stage Leone came to an impasse with the Ladd group of companies and realised that his version would never be seen by audiences in America. Between Italy and the U.K. approximately 9 minutes were added to the version shown in theaters.



Once, you may want to kill me, but despite all what Leone had said about the film's runtime, and despite all that sources which claim a 218 -220 min runtime, I'm still 99 % sure that there was never another uncut version than the 229 min version we all know.

If such a shorter version had existed and was then extended to a 229 min runtime, this would have been documented in all the books written by about Leone.

And it would be totally absurd now to delete these 9 min again. Why should they do such a stupidity?

Most of my sources only claim the 229 min version, cause there wasn't another one.

Sure one should think that the director should know it best, but such things happen, and maybe it was Leone himself who got confused himself about the various runtimes for which the film was conceived, and was himself the only original source for all these mistakes.

There is lot of doubtless evidence for the existence of the 229 min version, but none for the shorter version.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 07, 2012, 06:35:49 PM
either way, I am sure that whatever extra material we get with the new release, it will be in addition to the 229 minutes we currently have; they will not be removing those 9 minutes under any circumstances. I'd be willing to bet any amount of money on that at 10-1 odds


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on May 07, 2012, 08:56:38 PM
either way, I am sure that whatever extra material we get with the new release, it will be in addition to the 229 minutes we currently have; they will not be removing those 9 minutes under any circumstances. I'd be willing to bet any amount of money on that at 10-1 odds

The only way that removing 9 minutes would make sense is if conflicts with some of the newly restored material.  :'(


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Noodles_SlowStir on May 15, 2012, 11:11:03 AM
Link from The Independent with a little information on added scenes.


http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/features/martin-scorsese-breathes-new-life-into-gangster-classic-once-upon-a-time-in-america-7746578.html


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: PowerRR on May 15, 2012, 11:59:23 AM
I'm excited to see McGovern perform Cleopatra. Should be nice seeing Louis Fletcher in there too, not sure how much that will add to the movie though. Pretty disappointing that it's still not Leone's preferred version though.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 15, 2012, 03:18:27 PM
this article also says 25 extra minutes for a total of 245 minutes.... who knows wtf the truth is....


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on May 15, 2012, 06:13:27 PM
 ::)

245: http://www.festival-cannes.com/en/festival/CannesClassics.html (http://www.festival-cannes.com/en/festival/CannesClassics.html)
253: http://www.festival-cannes.com/en/archives/ficheFilm/id/11255488/year/2012.html (http://www.festival-cannes.com/en/archives/ficheFilm/id/11255488/year/2012.html)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 15, 2012, 07:59:38 PM
I really want to withhold judgment until I see the movie.

With that said, it seems as if they may not restore all the scenes that Leone had to cut to get down to 229 minutes (Frayling lists those scenes on p. 458 of STDWD).

I really hope that they restore the scenes with Darlanne Fleugel as Eve. I think those are really important. Noodles is mourning losing Deborah, and the next thing you know he is on the beach with Eve, and Noodles and Max are talking business in front of her. It is very jarring to see that without their meeting and relationship first being introduced. (Yes, it is slightly less jarring cuz we already saw Eve in the opening scene, and in the speakeasy on the final night. But it is weird nonethless).
Nice to hear that the scenes with Louise Fletcher at the cemetery -- which should explaining more about the mausoleum and recording of Cockeye's Song.


And btw, before we get too worried about this not being Leone's preferred version, let's remember that Frayling gets his math a bit muddled: First he says that that Leone preferred a cut between 4:10--4:25, and then he says that Leone had to cut 45-50 minutes of significant material from his preferred cut. Well, 45-50 minutes added to 3:49 = between 4:34 -- 4:39 minutes, not 4:10--4:25 . I don't know which of the two statements by Frayling (which occur in the same paragraph on p. 458 of STDWD ) are accurate. However, if the statement that Leone's preferred cut was 4:10--4:25 is the one that is accurate, then we may indeed be getting something very close to what Leone ideally wanted: 25 restored minutes added to 3:49 = a new version of 4:14.


I'd add that on that page, Frayling lists 8 different "items" that were cut, which means a total of much more than 8 scenes (eg. McGovern's performances are listed as one item, even though it is two different performances, one from 1933 and one from 1968). I listed those cut items at this post http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=1302.msg146469#msg146469

Based on the pace of the movie and Leone's style of filmmaking, I'd have to guess that there is no way that all the material that Frayling lists will be able to be restored in only 25 minutes.
But I hope that Scorcese and the Leone children restore the important scenes


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Garry Cowell on May 16, 2012, 05:04:32 AM
This is translated from this site (http://www.rbcasting.com/eventi/festival-cannes/2012/05/16/c%E2%80%99era-una-volta-in-america-di-sergio-leono-sequenze-inedite-a-cannes-65/)... (FIXED link)

Quote
Six blocks of scenes - belonging to different eras in which the film is set - reintroduced in the new version which now reaches the last 4 hours and 19 minutes:

1) dialogue between Noodles, played by Robert De Niro, and director of the cemetery, played by Louise Fletcher (scene set in 1968);

2) changing the sequence in which the car with Noodles and Max (played by James Woods) sinks and anxiety of friends who do not see resurface Noodles (1933);

3) the film producer Arnon Milchan in the role of chauffeur talks with Noodles (1933);

4) love scene (fee) between Noodles and Eve, played by Darlenne Fluegel (1933);

5) Deborah, played by Elizabeth McGovern, plays Cleopatra in Shakespeare's theater (1968);

6) Senator Bailey (New Identity Max), played by Woods, has an interview in his private study with the leading trade unionist in the past of a "rescue" by the banda of Noodles and Max (1968).


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 16, 2012, 07:35:41 AM
Thanks for that.

FYI that link you posted to the site doesn't work


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on May 16, 2012, 01:04:49 PM
If I understand that article correctly, it says they've restored 26 minutes to the film. Subtracting 26 from 4 hrs. 19 minutes doesn't quite get me to 229, but it's pretty close.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on May 16, 2012, 02:23:01 PM
Then we have now 4 "officially" announced runtimes: 270 ; 259 ; 253 ; 245

Terrific


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on May 17, 2012, 07:51:59 AM
May be the difference between the 245min and the 270min versions is only the intermission.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 17, 2012, 08:58:47 AM
so in other words, we don't know shit, and the last 5 pages of this thread have been a complete waste of time........

well, the movie screens at Cannes tomorrow night. I am sure we will hear more reports over the weekend, though I am not confident that they will all necessarily be correct, or the same. The reporters will probably list whatever "official" time is listed on the program or whatever, rather than timing it themselves. So we may not know anything for sure until the dvd is released ;)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: MatViola on May 17, 2012, 09:51:08 AM
There's a cut scene in which Noodles catches a glimpse of Deborah sitting at a table in the train station and then follows her along the track (before she leaves for Hollywood). I remember reading that Leone was very fond of this sequence. I thought it was mentioned in Frayling's book, but I can't find it. Anyone have the reference?

Mat


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: DJASh on May 17, 2012, 02:58:50 PM
Hello People

Does anyone know if the new cut will be given a widespread run in cinemas, at least arthouses and their like?

I'd love to immerse myself in  darkened theatre for 4 hours ( or thereabouts!) and gaze on a full size projection of the masterwork for a second time .


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on May 17, 2012, 05:13:44 PM
Hello People

Does anyone know if the new cut will be given a widespread run in cinemas, at least arthouses and their like?

I'd love to immerse myself in  darkened theatre for 4 hours ( or thereabouts!) and gaze on a full size projection of the masterwork for a second time .

we are hopeful


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 17, 2012, 06:57:18 PM
Hello People

Does anyone know if the new cut will be given a widespread run in cinemas, at least arthouses and their like?

I'd love to immerse myself in  darkened theatre for 4 hours ( or thereabouts!) and gaze on a full size projection of the masterwork for a second time .

In the meantime, if you are in the New York area, you can immerse yourself in a darkened theater for a month and watch Leone's and other spaghetti westerns, which are playing at the Film Forum in Manhattan throughout June 2012 http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=11250.0
But from the way you spelled "theatre," I take it you are not American?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: MatViola on May 19, 2012, 06:45:40 AM
http://trovacinema.repubblica.it/multimedia/copertina/cannes-cera-una-volta-con-26-minuti-in-piu-scena-tagliata/31846181

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6Ss-jUGbl4&feature=player_embedded#


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Shambaby on May 19, 2012, 07:31:40 AM
Leone: "I prefer is this one, that bit of reclusiveness is just what I like about it.”  I saw the scene with Louise Fletcher.  It only answered very obvious things.  Sergio created his masterpiece by being to forced to whittle it down to the utmost important scenes.  And it give it that "reclusiveness" or sense of mystery that keeps us intrigued and using our brain throughout the movie.  Also, I dislike the razor-sharp focus of the new scenes.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on May 19, 2012, 08:14:52 AM
Leone: "I prefer is this one, that bit of reclusiveness is just what I like about it.”  I saw the scene with Louise Fletcher.  It only answered very obvious things.  Sergio created his masterpiece by being to forced to whittle it down to the utmost important scenes.  And it give it that "reclusiveness" or sense of mystery that keeps us intrigued and using our brain throughout the movie.  Also, I dislike the razor-sharp focus of the new scenes.

From this comment it sounds like a re-run of the GBU "restoration," adding scenes that aren't strictly essential to the film because they exist. I'm still inclined to pass.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: PowerRR on May 19, 2012, 09:07:17 AM
Yeah, that Fletcher scene doesn't do much for me. But I wonder if the scene of Noodles following Deborah in the train station is in there. The whole sequence (from the date to intermission) is probably my favorite set of scenes in any movie ever. Absolutely perfect.

EDIT: http://blogs.indiewire.com/pressplay/cannes-2012-once-upon-a-time-in-america-restored#

Great description of the added scenes. I'm interested in seeing Deborah's Cleopatra performance, and especially the additional scene after the car flies off the dock. Sounds great.

Doesn't sound like the train scene is there. No big deal. Thinking about it, I don't think changing a thing about that sequence could make it any better...probably just worse.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: MatViola on May 19, 2012, 10:47:03 AM
But I wonder if the scene of Noodles following Deborah in the train station is in there.

Yes, it is. I've got the breakdown of the scenes here:

http://notesofafilmfanatic.com/


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: PowerRR on May 19, 2012, 11:04:13 AM
Thank you, amazing article. However I'm worried about the break to meet Eve between the rape and the train scene. The transition from the limo leaving to the brief train station scene to the intermission is, like I said, absolutely perfect. The extra scenes might ruin that flow for me.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: MatViola on May 19, 2012, 11:20:32 AM
Thanks! I know what you mean. I've been watching the 229-minute version for over twenty years, so I suspect this version is going to take some getting used to. Did you see this in the comments section - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIuLFIm2mQQ


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on May 19, 2012, 12:13:47 PM
Yes, it is. I've got the breakdown of the scenes here:

http://notesofafilmfanatic.com/

Great article Mat! I'm not so sure about the "The common perception among fans that Leone assembled a 270-minute cut back in 1984 is a myth." part (since the common perception among fans (probably depending on what you call "fan") seems more to be "I WANT TO SEE THE 270min director's cut!!!!"), but once again, great great article with lots of insights. I had lost track of what the deleted scenes are and what the players said about it at the time. Thanks!


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on May 19, 2012, 05:17:18 PM
Thanks! I know what you mean. I've been watching the 229-minute version for over twenty years, so I suspect this version is going to take some getting used to. Did you see this in the comments section - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIuLFIm2mQQ

Awesome - thanks! And great article too  O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on May 19, 2012, 05:53:24 PM
So, the re-inserted footage is all of inferior quality to the surrounding elements, and we get a noticeable drop in image quality every time we move from the standard cut to the newly-added scenes? That being the case, I would have preferred to have the scenes as extras and not as re-inserted footage.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on May 19, 2012, 06:09:48 PM
From this comment it sounds like a re-run of the GBU "restoration," adding scenes that aren't strictly essential to the film because they exist.
Not an apt comparison. The scenes (except for the one in the grotto) were all Sergio-approved and always existed in the Italian cut. So the scenes weren't actualy "added" back in, just the new audio for the scenes that were never originally dubbed in English.

However, the fact that the Grotto Scene was taken out of the Italian cut by Sergio himself is by itself a powerful argument that it should not be in the film.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on May 19, 2012, 06:11:23 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6Ss-jUGbl4&feature=player_embedded#
Morricone looks amazing! I guess he's going to live forever.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 19, 2012, 10:33:10 PM
Matt - Thanks for your great article yesterday.

I really should avoid knowing anything about the new scenes and wait until I see the restored movie in theaters or dvd. But I sure don't have that kind of self-control, so now that I've read all about the new scenes (and seen some clips already) I will give some preliminary thoughts about each of the restored scenes, though of course, I am reserving final judgment until I actually see the entire restored movie.

Here goes:


--------------------------------------------------------
CEMETERY SCENE WITH LOUISE FLETCHER AND LIMO, AND LIMO BLOWING UP OUTSIDE BAILEY ESTATE

The parts with Louise Fletcher are good. The explanation about the construction of the mausoleum and the recording of Cockeye's tune was definitely helpful; it's one of the elements in the movie that -- while it certainly works as is -- probably could have used a but more explaining, and this helps. Fletcher's performance is perfect (as expected), and the added part about her trying to sell Noodles a plot in the cemetery is very good; it enhances the themes passage of time, and how this is all a dance of death, etc.

As for the part with the limo tailing Noodles, who then sees it blow up outside the Bailey mansion (before watching it on the newscast at Fat Moe's): One the one hand, maybe it tells you a bit too clearly that Bailey is involved with Noodles's return? In the 229-minute version, that part isn't yet that clear at that point, and I am not so sure that showing all that is necessary. But on the other hand, perhaps it is good that we see the limo following Noodles and then blowing up; it explains why Noodles is following this story on tv. In the 229-minute version, it just cuts from the car in the river to Noodles watching this broadcast, with no explanation as to why he cares about it. Once we know that he has seen the car following blown up, we know why he is following the story, and why Fat Moe asks him "Did you know those guys?" I suppose that it works as is, cuz Fat Moe knew that Noodles knew union guys back in the day. But once we see the limo following him, it clearly establishes that this Bailey story has something to do with why he is back (earlier than we knew it in the 229-minute version), and this newscast about the Bailey story seems more relevant to us, and doesn't seem like it comes out of nowhere


-------------------------------
EXTENDED "SWIMMING" SCENE AFTER CAR PLUNGES INTO RIVER
This scene is nice: though not necessary for the narrative, it serves as a counterpart to a similar scene with the boys in the river as youngsters, and it is a further depiction of the friendship between Max and Noodles.

-----------------------------------

NOODLES'S CONVERSATION WITH THE CHAUFFEUR

This is definitely good. While not in any way essential for the narrative, it is a nice bit explaining how the Jewish community despised Jewish gangsters (which is mentioned in The Hoods; and also distinguishes this movie from The Godfather, which I am sure was very important for Leone); and also discusses how in Noodles's mind, the choice was to become a gangster and get rich, or go to school and take the straight path and hope that one day perhaps you will be able to make a half-decent living. That point, about gangsters justifying the choices they made, has been made in so many movies involving gangsters that come from poor backgrounds (an early scene in The Public Enemy comes to mind as just one example, where the young Cagney says of his older brother, "he's going to school... he's learning how to be poor!), and in that sense is another piece of the homage that OUATIA is to gangster movies.


----------------------------------------
NOODLES'S MEETING WITH EVE

These scenes are extremely important. the fact that Eve just seems to show up out of nowhere, and is obviously so close to Noodles that she is there when they are discussing the Federal reserve job, is one of the most glaring problems with the narrative in the 229-minute version. So it is great that they added these scenes in.

I am just not sure why they did not include ALL the scenes with Eve? In the scenes that are restored, Noodles and Eve just have that one night together, where Noodles passes out before anything happens, and the he find the note she leaves him in the morning, saying THANK YOU, signed, Deborah. But that's all. Next time you see her, she is on the beach with them, as they are talking about the Federal reserve job. That is MUCH better, but not as good as if they'd have restored all of Eve's scenes:

What actually happens is this: Noodles initially notices Eve's great cleavage, and then brings her back to his hotel, in the restored scenes.... In unrestored scenes we see that on his way out of the hospital after leaving Jimmy, Noodles is in the elevator and sees girl with this great cleavage -- it is Eve, who is visiting the hospital. He then makes up to meet her again, and they go to his hotel room, where he gives her this gift of a bunch of large-cupped bras, and then Noodles finds out that... Eve is actually flat and  wears falsies! (This scene appears in The Hoods, btw).
 Then Max and Carol walk into the room and invite them down to Florida.

I think they should have restored ALL of these scenes, because: Max is always interfering with Noodles's love life: as a kid, he interrupts their making out, then when Noodles gets out of prison and he meets Deborah at the speakeasy, Max calls Noodles into the side room to discus business with Frankie and Joe. (Both times she teases him, "Go on Noodles, your mother's calling you!") In the scenes with Eve, Max interrupts him for (what he thinks is) vacation not business, but still, the point is that Noodles is a romantic, and he basically has to choose between Max and his love life. Furthermore, on the first night Noodles met Eve, he was just using her as a substitute for Deborah; in the later scene, we actually see them becoming close as a couple.

So the restored scenes with Eve are IMO the most important of all the restored scenes, though I wish they had actually restored them all. But at least restoring the ones they did explains how eve came into the picture, and therefore that is great news.

----------------------------------------------

DEBORAH IN RESTAURANT BEFORE SHE GETS ON TRAIN

Well, it's 35 seconds, and once they are doing the restoration, why not? But it doesn't seem to be all that important for the narrative.

----------------------------------------------

ELDERLY DEBORAH PERFORMS SHAKESPEARE, AS NOODLES WATCHES

Elizabeth McGovern didn't think this scene was appropriate, and that it just slows down the action (She also doesn't seem that confident that she was able to do Shakespeare well, so who knows if the reason she is happy the scene was cut from the 229-minute version is cuz she didn't give a good performance in that scene?  ;))

I think it is helpful to make a break between Noodles's meeting the elderly Carol at the Bailey Foundation's rest home, and him meeting Deborah at her dressing room. In the 229-minute version, it seems as if the theater is in the same place; we just see Carol talking to Noodles and then it goes straight to Noodles in her dressing room. So I like this scene if, for nothing else, separating the scene in Carol's rest home with the scene in Deborah's dressing room, which were NOT in the same building.

I just don't understand why they wouldn't restore the scene of Noodles watching Deborah perform in 1933 before their date; while it may not be important for the narrative, wouldn't it be nice as a "counterpart" or contrast" to the scene of Deborah performing 35 years later?

---------------------------------------------

THE ELDERLY JIMMY O'DONNEL AND BAILEY TALK IN BAILEY'S STUDY

I don't think there is anything that would not be understood without this scene, unless you want to get into the "moral" aspect of it, how O'Donnell avoided mistakes, but Max screwed up, etc. So it is not necessary strictly from a narrative point of view, but it may bring out some of the movie's themes (which are certainly more important than the narrative in a Leone movie!)

Actually, I wonder whether this may weaken the meeting between Noodles and Bailey? In the 229-minute version, we have no idea what is going to be said at that meeting; only then do we find out that Bailey brought Noodles back to kill him. But when we see the scene with O'Donnell telling Bailey to kill himself, I wonder if that may be bad for two reasons: a) when Bailey announces that he wants to die, it is not shocking anymore; and b) if Bailey has been planning his death all along -- bringing Noodles back for it -- then why the special mention of it by O'Donnell? In other words, isn't O'Donnell's mention of Bailey having to die meant to be a surprise? if it turns out that bailey had been planning it all along anyway, then what is the big deal? That O'Donnell is saying it has to be TONIGHT? Well Bailey had already invited Noodles to the party, so he intended it to be that night anyway, no? I just do not see what this does.

-------------------------------------





Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 19, 2012, 10:52:00 PM
3 more thoughts on the restored version:

1) Of the scenes that were NOT restored, the two that bother me most (in addition to the ones with Eve and Deborah's performance that I mentioned in the previous post) are:

     A) the ones with Bugsy's arrest -- that explains why he wants to kill the gang, and why the gang takes over his job; and
      B) some of the ones with elderly Carol -- some of the elderly Carol's dialogue discusses a wrong version of Eve's death, and is therefore inconsistent with Eve's death as portrayed in the opening scene. But i wonder if they could have at least kept some of it in, like the part when Noodles first goes to the rest home. That would explain more of how he came to meet Carol, and The Bailey Foundation, rather than having it appear out of nowhere as it does now. If it is possible to include some more of the scenes with Carol without including the parts where she says Eve killed herself, then they should have. (I am not sure if those parts where Carol has an alternate version of Eve's death were shot before they wrote the opening scene showing Eve's death; or if perhaps it is meant to be there, showing that Carol doesn't know wtf she is talking about; after all, she was wrong about Max's death too! Or if perhaps it is meant to question the opening scene's truth, and therefore make the point that we never know wtf is going on?!)

-------------------------------------------


2) My general feeling is that you want to include any possible additional scenes you can get your hands on, unless you know Leone did not want it there. (Like the Tuco in the Cave scene, which Leone himself removed and Cocksucker John Jerk of MGM put back; that never should have been anything other than an extra feature on the dvd). The more we can see that Leone wanted, the better.

Of course, even if Leone had indeed been allowed to make a version as long as he wanted, we do not know with 100% certainty what footage he would have kept. But I think I can say with confidence that the restored version is closer to what Leone would have ideally wanted than the 229-minute version.

---------------------------------------

3) The picture quality looks awful on the clips we have seen: the color is terrible. everything looks very dark, kind of like those color videos of World War 2 fMGM chose not to restore the full-length Tuco Beating Scene in GBU due to the picture's poor quality; I just watched that clip, and it is FAR better than the quality of the restored scenes of OUATIA that I have seen in these clips).

Whether or not you prefer the restored version of the movie, the fact is that if the quality of the restored scenes on the dvd will indeed be noticeably different than the rest of the movie, then I don't know if fans will ever be able to consider the restored version  to be "the definitive version." In your mind, it has to flow seamlessly and blend into a single piece in order to have a chance of actually being considered "a version of OUATIA" rather than just  "a version of OUATIA plus a few added scenes." i mean, if they were to actually like 50 minutes or so, then it's enough that it would be considered part of the movie; those scenes would be like 1/6 of the movie, so it wouldn't be as jarring when those scenes come on, cuz it would be more often. But as it is now, with these restored scenes being less than 1/10 of the movie, it will be too jarring when they come on here and there to ever consider them a real part of one movie. So if on the dvd, the quality of the restored scenes will never be better than what it looks like on those few clips that have been posted to Youtube, and no new scenes will ever be added, then I think you can probably ever forget about this ever actually being considered a legitimate single "version" of the movie; rather, it'll just be, "the 229-minute  version plus a few added scenes."


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on May 20, 2012, 08:17:47 AM
Not an apt comparison. The scenes (except for the one in the grotto) were all Sergio-approved and always existed in the Italian cut. So the scenes weren't actualy "added" back in, just the new audio for the scenes that were never originally dubbed in English.

However, the fact that the Grotto Scene was taken out of the Italian cut by Sergio himself is by itself a powerful argument that it should not be in the film.

Perhaps you're right in making that distinction. Let me put it this way: is the English GBU missing anything in its 161 minute version?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 20, 2012, 09:33:02 AM
Perhaps you're right in making that distinction. Let me put it this way: is the English GBU missing anything in its 161 minute version?

It depends what you mean by "missing." As for the narrative, let's say nothing is missing. (IMO the Angel Eyes at the fort scene is the only part that is essential, but you think that is not essential, and I will concede that point momentarily for the sake of argument).

But especially in a Leone movie, narrative is not everything. It's the cinematography, the way scenes are shot, the editing, the music, the themes of the movie, the pace, a piece of satire, etc. (Eg. even if you deleted the entire Ecstacy of Gold sequence and the entire Triello sequence except the last 5 seconds of each, you could also make the argument that the narrative is not harmed in the slightest way -- yet those are probably the 2 most important scenes in the movie, and also in cinema history).

A few examples from the deleted scenes in GBU: the Angel Eyes at the fort scene A) has a beautiful versio of Morricone's civil war theme, and puts a little humanity in even an SOB like Angel Eyes; you see that even he is shocked by the carnage. I just watched Frayling's commentary again yesterday (it is simply amazing) and during that scene, he mentioned a reference to a Charlie Chaplin movie where a mass murderer says at his trial that yes he killed, but nothing like Roosevelt and Stalin. So as evil as Angel Eyes is, it is nothing compared to the brutalities of war. The deleted scene of Blondie and Tuco traveling in the coach after leaving the Mission San Antonio has some dialogue about the corpses not being worried about anything; again, some themes of the civil war. The deleted scene between Angel Eyes and the commandant of Union camp has Angel Eyes making some of the very same arguments in defending his brutality as the head of Andersonville did when he was brought to trial -- we were understaffed and underfunded, brutality was necessary to keep order.

So it depends what you mean when you ask whether that version is "missing." Even if it does not harm the narrative one iota, Leone's scenes have much more than just narrative, and the scenes are mostly enjoyable to watch. And while I think a couple of the added scenes are still useless, the fact is that several of them are important; and I will take the extra 16 minutes even if it means that 8 of those  minutes will be useless.

Furthermore, I think the 161 minute version is missing simply cuz it is not Leone's preferred version. Nobody is perfect including Leone, and any one of us has every right to disagree with him on anything, so of course you may believe the 161-minute version is preferable. But especially in the hands of a Master like Leone, I believe that it is inherently deficient if it is not his preferred version, unless there is something so glaringly terrible in there, (like if he had chosen to keep the Cave scene in there, then I would say yes, it is better without that scene. But the fact that he voluntarily deleted the Cave Scene, the Socorro Scene, and the Harmonica Rising Scene from OUATITW, shows that he is being honest in editing, and putting in what he believes is best for the movie, and not just pushing for all of his material to be used). IMO there is certainly enough to be gained from those extra scenes  that make it worthwhile to have them in there. I am certainly happy that we have the version of GBU that Leone wanted us to see.




Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on May 20, 2012, 09:37:57 AM
Quote
narrative is not everything.

Except the added scenes mainly serve narrative, or at least explanatory purposes. Only the cuts to the desert scene are strictly non-functional.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 20, 2012, 09:41:34 AM
Except the added scenes mainly serve narrative, or at least explanatory purposes. Only the cuts to the desert scene are strictly non-functional.

As i discussed in the post above, the scenes with Angel Eyes at the Fort, Blondie & Tuco traveling after they leave the Mission, and Angel Eyes speaking to the commandant of Betterville, all serve important functions related to themes (and in some cases, musical themes) about the Civil War.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on May 20, 2012, 09:43:07 AM
Themes already present in the shorter version.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 20, 2012, 10:00:13 AM
Themes already present in the shorter version.

the shorter version does not have Angel Eyes witnessing -- and being saddened by -- the destructiveness of war, nor does it him excusing the brutality to the commandant.

btw, maybe you should copy the posts from this thread and the other OUATIA thread and post them all in a single new thread in the GBU Board? (I don't know how to do it, but i am sure you do). I don't wanna clog up the OUATIA board with discussion about GBU.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on May 20, 2012, 10:05:33 AM
I will happily concede that the GBU restoration is (aside from the grotto scene) closer to Leone's vision, though that's not my main point. I think the discussion here is at least loosely germane to the general topic, no need for a new thread.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 20, 2012, 10:19:12 AM
I will happily concede that the GBU restoration is (aside from the grotto scene) closer to Leone's vision, though that's not my main point. I think the discussion here is at least loosely germane to the general topic, no need for a new thread.

So I think we can agree on this:

Groggy's Preferred Version: old dvd (with 161 minute feature, other scenes as special features)

Sergio Leone's Preferred Version: new dvd, minus the Cave Scene


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: MatViola on May 20, 2012, 12:18:20 PM
Just in case anyone's gonna be in France in September:

http://www.lefilmfrancais.com/109841/il-etait-une-fois-en-amerique-de-retour-dans-les-salles


"Once Upon a Time in America back in theaters. Carlotta Films will release the new version, extended and restored, the masterpiece by Sergio Leone in French theaters in September."


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on May 20, 2012, 12:35:33 PM
How does the sound remix factor into your theory?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on May 20, 2012, 02:26:42 PM
How does the sound remix factor into your theory?
Can't speak for Drink, but here's how it lays with me: When watching GBU, I prefer the shorter cut; when watching BBC, I prefer the standard (longer) cut.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on May 20, 2012, 02:52:29 PM
Quote
The explanation about the construction of the mausoleum and the recording of Cockeye's tune was definitely helpful.
So now the playing of Cockeye's tune in the mausoleum is diegetic? That isn't an audio memory that Noodles is experiencing, that the audience gets to share? Noodles is actually hearing it playing through some kind of amazing-for-1968 sound system cleverly hidden in the "haven"? Well, that right there ruins things for me. Not to mention the fact that its presence is "explained" in a way that raises more questions than it answers. Max had a tape of Cockeye playing his theme? A tape from a performance from 1933 or earlier? Did Cockeye cut a record once and Max saved it and committed it to tape once that format became generally available? Or was Max able to remember the tune so well that later he transcribed it for a musician who was able to perform just as Cockeye had all those years ago? And all just to be able to get to Mr. Williams' poise at the proper moment. I call BS on this whole element.

The black limo also raises questions that aren't answered: so, later, Noodles sees it blown up. So what? Do we ever find out who was inside, why they were following Noodles, who they were working for? If not, then it's just there to be mysterious and menacing? Like we need that?

Contrast this with the frisbee scene, where less is explained, but we get plenty of mystery and menace, to say nothing of a bit of Noodles' paranoia.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on May 20, 2012, 03:19:11 PM
I don't know Jinkies, the music always seemed diegetic to me. You'll notice that it starts and stops when Noodles opens/closes the crypt door.

You're dead right on the plausibility issue though. Too much exposition tends to undermine credibility. In the shorter version the music's a nice style touch, without much reason to think it over. Having a deadeningly literal explanation of it ruins the effect.

As for the limo it's just too obvious a touch for me. Maybe the initial shot of it lurking in the background could have worked. The prolonged bit with it slowly creeping away, in plain daylight, for everyone in New York to see? Come on. Someone like Max who's made a life being discreet isn't going to be that brazenly stupid.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 20, 2012, 05:13:44 PM
yes, the music is definitely playing in the mausoleum. Cockeye's Tune is rather simple, don't think it would be too hard for someone to make a recording of it.

I agree that the limo tailing Noodles perhaps makes things a bit too literal, and too much into a detective story; this story is more about Noodles exploring his past, than a detective story with cars following you and blowing up. So maybe the limo as shown is too literal. But I do like some explanation for why Noodles is so interested in this Bailey scandal. As it plays in the 229MV, there is really no reason for why Noodles is so interested in that story, and we get the idea that it somehow has to do with his quest, but with no justification for it.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 20, 2012, 05:18:46 PM
How does the sound remix factor into your theory?

A) It's not "my theory." I've yet to find one person who disagrees that Leone's preferred version of GBU is the one shown in the MGM SE minus the Cave Scene.

B) I'd tried avoiding discussing sound cuz I really don't know anything about it at all. My understanding is that you can choose the old mono track, if you want the movie to sound exactly as it did in 1968; and that they changed the gunshots for the SE cuz John Jerk says the old gunshots wouldn't fit with the new remastered sound. I really don't know much about audio so I've never discussed that. (Though from what i understand the DYS dvd absolutely butchers the audio, and that bothers me, knowing that eg. the musical cues are wrong).


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on May 20, 2012, 05:50:31 PM
I agree that the limo tailing Noodles perhaps makes things a bit too literal, and too much into a detective story; this story is more about Noodles exploring his past, than a detective story with cars following you and blowing up. So maybe the limo as shown is too literal. But I do like some explanation for why Noodles is so interested in this Bailey scandal. As it plays in the 229MV, there is really no reason for why Noodles is so interested in that story, and we get the idea that it somehow has to do with his quest, but with no justification for it.

I don't know that the limo necessarily syncs up with Bailey. Was there an additonal scene with him tracking down the plate number? It's a cool idea but done far too obviously.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 20, 2012, 05:52:50 PM
I don't know that the limo necessarily syncs up with Bailey. Was there an additonal scene with him tracking down the plate number? It's a cool idea but done far too obviously.

Yes.

There is another added scene where Noodles sees a limo with the same plate number blow up outside the bailey mansion. That is why he is so interested in the newscast of that story -- he knows that the limo that blew up has been tailing him, and that this unfolding Bailey scandal therefore has something to do with why he was brought back


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on May 20, 2012, 05:53:33 PM
Yes.

There is another added scene where Noodles sees a limo with the same plate number blow up outside the bailey mansion. That is why he is so interested in the newscast of that story -- he knows that the limo that blew up has been tailing him, and that this unfolding Bailey scandal therefore has something to do with why he was brought back

Okay, cool. That makes sense.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 20, 2012, 06:48:17 PM
Okay, cool. That makes sense.

Mat Viola has a breakdown of all the added scenes here http://notesofafilmfanatic.com/ the one in question is 2b)

truth is, with this limo element, this becomes more of a detective story. As it is now in the 229MV, sure Noodles has come back to find something, but he is more clueless as to what it is, and it is more internal -- coming to terms with his past. With the limo element added, it becomes something perhaps a bit closer to the classic PI story.
That may well have been Leone's intention -- Leone said that OUATIA is meant as an homage to film noir (though I believe he was talking more about the gangster movies than the PI movies). But it does change the story of Noodles's return. To that extent, I am not so sure that this is the best way to do it. What I mean to say is, I think the story makes a bit more sense now that we know why Noodles has become interested in the Bailey scandal; but I wonder whether this was the best way to do it.

Also, as Mat explains, this changes one of the visual transitional elements: in the 229MV, we cut from Noodles driving the car into the river in 1933 to the newscast of the car being blown up.

But in the new version, here is how it works:

 after Noodles drives the car into the river, the boys get out of the car and play around in the water, until Max becomes frantic because Noodles has pretended to drown -- a parallel to a scene from their childhood. Then, we cut from the car in the river to the car blowing up outside the Bailey mansion, as Noodles watches; then, we cut from that car blowing up in front of the mansion, to the shots of the car on the tv newscast. Makes a bit more sense in the visual transitions.

---------------------

There's no doubt that this new version will take some getting used to. I, for one, am willing to give it a serious chance at being the "definitive version" ... but only once I see it. Maybe I am subconsciously just trying to put a brave face on something that deep down I am afraid will disappoint me. Who knows. All I know is that this may be the last time we ever get to see Leone footage for the first time. (That sentence makes about as much sense as Raquel Welch in Bandolero, but what the hell  ;))






Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on May 21, 2012, 02:22:14 AM
A) It's not "my theory." I've yet to find one person who disagrees that Leone's preferred version of GBU is the one shown in the MGM SE minus the Cave Scene.

B) I'd tried avoiding discussing sound cuz I really don't know anything about it at all. My understanding is that you can choose the old mono track, if you want the movie to sound exactly as it did in 1968; and that they changed the gunshots for the SE cuz John Jerk says the old gunshots wouldn't fit with the new remastered sound. I really don't know much about audio so I've never discussed that. (Though from what i understand the DYS dvd absolutely butchers the audio, and that bothers me, knowing that eg. the musical cues are wrong).

a) Yes that's definitely the Leone version, but as most of us have lived so many years with the 161 min version (without missing anything) it is only natural that people are less tolerant to the Leone version. I prefer the Leone version (175 min), but would be glad if Leone had cut 2 of the "new" scenes. The others I like very much.

b) The problem with the audio is that you cannot chose. The mono track isn't added, and that's not excusable. They shouldn't have the right to alter the audio track, and if they still like to do their 5.1. games, they should have at least also remastered the original mono audio. And it is a big disappointment that the Blu still does not contain the mono track.
Adding new noises to a film (only to make the film compatible to modern audience's likings = to sell more DVDs) is like saying present-day audiences want that the sky looks yellow, let's change the color, or that there should be more blood, let's add some digital blood splashs, or smoking is not pc any more, let's get rid of Eastwood's cigarillos.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: moviesceleton on May 21, 2012, 03:05:40 AM
So, the re-inserted footage is all of inferior quality to the surrounding elements, and we get a noticeable drop in image quality every time we move from the standard cut to the newly-added scenes? That being the case, I would have preferred to have the scenes as extras and not as re-inserted footage.
Are you making that assumption from the material that's on YouTube or has somebody actually confirmed this? I don't know why they would release inferior material on the Internet but that's always a possibility.

And concerning the shortness of the added material, I hope you all have read this: http://www.festival-cannes.fr/en/theDailyArticle/59209.html So basically they added all the cut material they could find.

I'm sorry if I'm repeating something brought up earlier in the thread.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Garry Cowell on May 21, 2012, 04:30:04 AM
Some more clips... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIuLFIm2mQQ


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 21, 2012, 04:43:14 AM
Are you making that assumption from the material that's on YouTube or has somebody actually confirmed this? I don't know why they would release inferior material on the Internet but that's always a possibility.

And concerning the shortness of the added material, I hope you all have read this: http://www.festival-cannes.fr/en/theDailyArticle/59209.html So basically they added all the cut material they could find.

I'm sorry if I'm repeating something brought up earlier in the thread.

so do you think this means that they put back in all the footage they could find?

That would explain a lot. I couldn't understand why they would only restore 25 minutes, but if that's all they could find, that makes sense. I sure hope that they put back in all the footage they could find




Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on May 21, 2012, 04:59:24 AM
Some more clips... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIuLFIm2mQQ

Thanks. O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on May 21, 2012, 05:59:14 AM
Are you making that assumption from the material that's on YouTube or has somebody actually confirmed this? I don't know why they would release inferior material on the Internet but that's always a possibility.

According to what one of the restoration guys says (excerpted in MatViola's article above):
Quote
Technically, the homogeneity of the unedited scenes was the biggest problem, as unfortunately the negatives for these scenes no longer exist. The only materials available were discarded strips of working positives which had been badly preserved.

Making this task even more difficult was the fact that the working positives had been printed without particular care, as originally they were part of the working copies which circulated between the assistant editors and sound editors as a work reference. The images in these sequences were ruined, not just by their poor state of preservation, but also through their use as working copies.

Looking at the clips on Youtube the loss in quality is evident. At first I didn't think the Youtube stuff was an accurate representation of the final images, but after reading the quote above it is what I now fear.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 21, 2012, 07:02:06 AM
if the difference in quality is that different, then I don't know if anyone will ever truly consider the 4:15 version the "definitive version." The only way it could possibly be is if it flowed seamlessly, and this sure does not.

I wish that woman who is talking over that YouTube clip would shut the hell up so we could see the scenes!


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: MatViola on May 21, 2012, 09:11:44 AM
On Twitter I asked the guy who wrote that glowing review on Indiewire, Simon Abrams, if there was a discernible difference in the visual quality of the new scenes or if they were seamlessly integrated and he said, "discernible, for sure."

Not good.

Mat


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on May 21, 2012, 09:46:10 AM
The recent Metropolis "restoration" did something similar, intercutting footage of markedly inferior quality into the standard cut. The contrast was jarring, making the viewing experience really unpleasant.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Garry Cowell on May 21, 2012, 10:49:52 AM
Apparently there was title card shown stating that the newly restored material was originally printed for reference purposes and that they cleaned them up as much as they could.

They'll looks less distracting by the time they make it to DVD but still...

I'm happy to be finally seeing these scenes and at least they didn't need to be re-dubbed!     


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on May 21, 2012, 12:51:18 PM
Still, they should have been supplied as extras on a new DVD/Blu-ray, not re-integrated into the film.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 21, 2012, 01:12:56 PM
Still, they should have been supplied as extras on a new DVD/Blu-ray, not re-integrated into the film.

For those who will always consider the 229MV as the definitive version, and these new scenes just as extra features, worry not: they will always sell dvd's of the 229MV; this new version will not change that.

Did you want them to issue new dvd's with the 229MV of the movie, plus these new scenes as special features? No way would that happen. As soon as they did that, unofficial "fan edits" would be made, of the whole movie with those scenes added in the appropriate places. And I would try as hard as I could to get one of those fan edits.... Once you are going to buy a new dvd just to get these scenes, why not have them put back in so you could watch what the movie looks like with these scenes? even if this version won't be the "definitive version," issuing a dvd of the entire movie including those scenes is the only sensible thing IMO.

I think that having dvd's of both the 229MV and this new version works just fine. Just like GBU, where both versions are available on dvd, which should satisfy fans of both versions


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on May 21, 2012, 02:57:23 PM
Since I seem like a close-minded ass through this thread, I'll clarify my position. I'm not uninterested in seeing the restored version. However, based on evidence presented, I'm very skeptical that it will be worthwhile.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: moviesceleton on May 21, 2012, 04:03:04 PM
According to what one of the restoration guys says (excerpted in MatViola's article above):
----
Looking at the clips on Youtube the loss in quality is evident. At first I didn't think the Youtube stuff was an accurate representation of the final images, but after reading the quote above it is what I now fear.
Thanks. A sad story, to be sure. It's incredible how people (in 1984!) or Leone himself did not preserve the original negatives.

However I gotta disagree with you here:
The recent Metropolis "restoration" did something similar, intercutting footage of markedly inferior quality into the standard cut. The contrast was jarring, making the viewing experience really unpleasant.
I've only seen the movie once - the 2010 restoration on a big screen with live music - so I can't really compare it with the better known version, but I didn't mind the newly added material so much. Sure, I noticed the huge difference in the image quality but it didn't really bother me. I'm sure though that the case will be different with OUATIA as I've seen the picture before (and the color is such a huge factor).

Anyway, I'm happy if I can see the restored version as a whole because I want to see how the added scenes fit into the story/flow of the movie. If/when this version is released on DVD/BD, you can always watch the added scenes separately and still have the old version on another DVD.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 21, 2012, 04:39:35 PM
Since I seem like a close-minded ass through this thread, I'll clarify my position. I'm not uninterested in seeing the restored version. However, based on evidence presented, I'm very skeptical that it will be worthwhile.

I think that is a very fair position to take. I'd would just try to really, really keep an open mind until I see the new movie; otherwise, there is no chance that you will like it. And while I am very happy that this material was released, that is basically what i am trying to do: keep an open mind about the possibility that I may or may not view it as the definitive version, and not make any decisions until I see it.

-----------

As for the discussions on the quality: I don't know anything about this sort of technical stuff, film deterioration and preservation, and where these prints of all the footage was supposed to be stored. So I am speaking out of my ass, but for whatever it's worth I will say that I can't imagine how the hell they fucked up the preservation of the film this.

For films made decades ago, in which the belief was that after it ran in theaters for a few months it would never be seen again, I understand. Even after television came in, I don't know if they ever ran extra footage from a movie, so I understand that studios would feel no need to preserve extra footage. And even after home video began ( was it in the late 70's?) the videotapes only had the feature film and no extra features or "director's cuts," so I understand why they never felt a need to preserve the extra footage.

But with OUATIA, the running time issue is part of the story of the movie. The discussion about longer versions has been around since the day the movie was released! They have been talking about this in one way or another since forever! So how the hell they allowed it to deteriorate like this -- and not even to keep a copy; they had to track the copies down from various crazy places -- seems crazy.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: MatViola on May 21, 2012, 04:55:52 PM
Okay, I think I'm about to make d&d's day. I found the following article (in French) which has some very interesting info, including a quote from Scorsese saying he knew Leone wanted these 20 minutes added back in. It also mentions the possibility of adding another 20 minutes to it in the near future. Alas, the article also talks a little about the graininess of the footage (though the translation isn't so good).

Here's the link: http://www.ecranlarge.com/article-details-22911.php (http://www.ecranlarge.com/article-details-22911.php)

Here's the translation:

Announced for many months with varying lengths of time, assembly of novel Once Upon a Time in America was projected with great fanfare as part of Cannes Classics including the presence of Robert De Niro, James Woods, Elizabeth McGovern and Jennifer Connelly ( who made his film debut at 13 years for this film).

Sergio Leone's film, restored by the Cinematheque of Bologna, has been discovered for the first time in a version of 4:13. So it's 24 minutes that were uncovered novel with a careful integration even if unable to work on the material of the first generation makes it perfectly detectable new sequences. Blame it on a grain, a calibration and a definition necessarily different mounting film that we know.

Very active in this restaurant since it is its foundation, The Film Foundation, which funded the transaction through the generous donation of $ 2 million from the fashion house Gucci, Martin Scorsese told our colleagues in the World: "In the case of Once Upon a Time in America, I know that Leone wanted those twenty minutes are restored. "

We are thus dealing with the version closest to the present time - Scorsese mentioned the possibility in the near future to add another twenty minutes - of what is now called the director's cut of Once Upon a Time in America. If, again, the visual changes between the sequences is detrimental to the aesthetic harmony of the work, it is undeniable that some of the new scenes provide insight essential to the story.

If the appearance of Louise Fletcher, so far only credited in the credits, as director of the cemetery, was far more the media's failure, it is far from that was most lacking in the story. Unlike the character of Eve, the prostitute Noodles (De Niro) meets in a bar, after raping Deborah (Elizabeth McGovern) in the car. A long sequence vital to discover the dismay of Noodles, regretting his act in a night of love almost pathetic when he tries to imagine Deborah instead of Eve - he even gives his name. Right after, we also discover Deborah have a coffee before catching his train, with his face still shocked by the tragic event happened. A tragedy of the two characters who suffer in their own way and the drama that gives meaning to the much heavier exchanged brief look on the station platform.

In the final moments of the film, we discover a scene now essential to understand the impossible situation in which there is the Secretary of State Bailey (thus verily Max played by James Woods). The footage shows James Conway (Treat Williams) forcing Bailey to sign papers making him almost lose everything and suggesting starting to end his days to avoid scandal unborn awaited his appearance in court. The desire to end Max and by the hand of his old friend, is so much more understandable. And the scene to show that the big winner in history is the character of Conway, obvious metaphor for an America where workers control anyone, holds the real power.

Among other additions, less vital to the enrichment of the story, we remain skeptical about lengthening the sequence where the dips Noodles car into the sea showing his friends worried about not seeing him rise to the surface. It is not known whether the sequence was originally intended to hear what the actors were saying, but then rise in the state, only the music of Morricone is present and the minutes are not the most successful.

The sequence of discussion between Noodles and his driver (played by the producer, Arnon Milchan) before they go out to dinner with Deborah, can show a big difference in perspective on life between the two men and a rising tensions that will resonate in the driver's reaction when he condemns rape by her boss.

Finally, the reunion between Noodles and Deborah are now preceded by a scene where we see Noodles discover the actress on stage in the process of interpreting the role of Cleopatra.

The discovery of this new version of Once Upon a Time in America, was in any event, a highlight of the festival. And especially the opportunity to realize, if any were needed, how the last movie of Sergio Leone is a monumental work and may be the best film to be screened at the festival this year. When you think that the reception was lukewarm at its first presentation in May 1984.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on May 21, 2012, 04:58:41 PM
Some studios don't take film preservation all that seriously. If you read about the restoration of Lawrence of Arabia (what else am I going to talk about?), you'll see Robert Harris and Co. found much of the missing footage in beaten-up cans or stored in poorly-heated rooms. Some of it was so bad the film actually crumbled when they tried to work with it. And this for a movie that was a major box office and critical success. Maybe after OUATIA tanked Warner Bros. or whoever just threw the extra footage in the nearest vault and ignored it.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on May 21, 2012, 05:01:37 PM
Okay, I think I'm about to make d&d's day. I found the following article (in French) which has some very interesting info, including a quote from Scorsese saying he knew Leone wanted these 20 minutes added back in. It also mentions the possibility of adding another 20 minutes to it in the near future. Alas, the article also talks a little about the graininess of the footage (though the translation isn't so good).

Here's the link: http://www.ecranlarge.com/article-details-22911.php (http://www.ecranlarge.com/article-details-22911.php)

Here's the translation:

Announced for many months with varying lengths of time, assembly of novel Once Upon a Time in America was projected with great fanfare as part of Cannes Classics including the presence of Robert De Niro, James Woods, Elizabeth McGovern and Jennifer Connelly ( who made his film debut at 13 years for this film).

Sergio Leone's film, restored by the Cinematheque of Bologna, has been discovered for the first time in a version of 4:13. So it's 24 minutes that were uncovered novel with a careful integration even if unable to work on the material of the first generation makes it perfectly detectable new sequences. Blame it on a grain, a calibration and a definition necessarily different mounting film that we know.

Very active in this restaurant since it is its foundation, The Film Foundation, which funded the transaction through the generous donation of $ 2 million from the fashion house Gucci, Martin Scorsese told our colleagues in the World: "In the case of Once Upon a Time in America, I know that Leone wanted those twenty minutes are restored. "

We are thus dealing with the version closest to the present time - Scorsese mentioned the possibility in the near future to add another twenty minutes - of what is now called the director's cut of Once Upon a Time in America. If, again, the visual changes between the sequences is detrimental to the aesthetic harmony of the work, it is undeniable that some of the new scenes provide insight essential to the story.

If the appearance of Louise Fletcher, so far only credited in the credits, as director of the cemetery, was far more the media's failure, it is far from that was most lacking in the story. Unlike the character of Eve, the prostitute Noodles (De Niro) meets in a bar, after raping Deborah (Elizabeth McGovern) in the car. A long sequence vital to discover the dismay of Noodles, regretting his act in a night of love almost pathetic when he tries to imagine Deborah instead of Eve - he even gives his name. Right after, we also discover Deborah have a coffee before catching his train, with his face still shocked by the tragic event happened. A tragedy of the two characters who suffer in their own way and the drama that gives meaning to the much heavier exchanged brief look on the station platform.

In the final moments of the film, we discover a scene now essential to understand the impossible situation in which there is the Secretary of State Bailey (thus verily Max played by James Woods). The footage shows James Conway (Treat Williams) forcing Bailey to sign papers making him almost lose everything and suggesting starting to end his days to avoid scandal unborn awaited his appearance in court. The desire to end Max and by the hand of his old friend, is so much more understandable. And the scene to show that the big winner in history is the character of Conway, obvious metaphor for an America where workers control anyone, holds the real power.

Among other additions, less vital to the enrichment of the story, we remain skeptical about lengthening the sequence where the dips Noodles car into the sea showing his friends worried about not seeing him rise to the surface. It is not known whether the sequence was originally intended to hear what the actors were saying, but then rise in the state, only the music of Morricone is present and the minutes are not the most successful.

The sequence of discussion between Noodles and his driver (played by the producer, Arnon Milchan) before they go out to dinner with Deborah, can show a big difference in perspective on life between the two men and a rising tensions that will resonate in the driver's reaction when he condemns rape by her boss.

Finally, the reunion between Noodles and Deborah are now preceded by a scene where we see Noodles discover the actress on stage in the process of interpreting the role of Cleopatra.

The discovery of this new version of Once Upon a Time in America, was in any event, a highlight of the festival. And especially the opportunity to realize, if any were needed, how the last movie of Sergio Leone is a monumental work and may be the best film to be screened at the festival this year. When you think that the reception was lukewarm at its first presentation in May 1984.

 

Thanks Mat. O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 21, 2012, 05:04:42 PM
With all this talk of film preservation, there is one point I have to make that is not really related but I have been thinking about it a lot lately and I feel it is at least somewhat related. Here goes:

It is great that with the advent of dvd's and widescreen tv's, movies are now generally being released in their original aspect ratio.

But what really irks me is that usually when I watch a dvd for a movie whose original AR is 1.85:1, the picture fills up the entire screen of my hdtv. Since hdtv's have a 1.78:1 AR, this means that they are chopping a bit off the sides of the picture! I know, the difference between 1.78:1 and 1.85:1 is very little; we "only" lose 4% off the sides. So 2% off the right side and 2% off the left side seems to be no big deal (and it is certainly far better than pan and scanning, which completely destroyed a widescreen movie). But it just irks me why then studios do this. Showing the full picture of a 1.85:1 movie on a 1.78:1 tv requires putting TINY black bars on top and bottom of the screen -- just a small fraction the size of the very large black bars that we are happy to live with horizontally for 2.35:1 movies, and vertically for 4:3 movies. If we are happy to live with the huge black bars for letterboxed or pillarboxd movies, then why do they think we wouldn't be happy living with tiny horizontal bars for 1.85:1 movies?

I think anybody here would prefer the full picture + tiny horizontal black lines, rather than filling the screen at the cost of having 2% of the picture chopped on each side. But I guess they care about mainstream idiots more than real fans like us.

What makes this even worse is that the studios should have learned their lesson by this point: how over time, formats of viewing technology continuously change; and that changing the original features of a movie for the sake of "accommodating" a particular time period can lead to permanently screwing up a work of art.

For example, what if in 20 years from now, the AR for tv's change to 2:1. For movies that were released in 1.85:1 but the dvd's in 1.78:1, will they have preserved the original theatrical aspect ratio for future home viewing formats? What will they do now  to accommodate these theoretical 2:1 tv's -- will they say, "the difference is too big, we can't cut that much to fill the screen; rather, we will live with the black bars on the sides"? or will they say, "let's just cut a bit off the top and bottom to fill the 2:1 screen"! Will they use the real 1.85:1 version as the reference print, or will these butchered 1.78:1 dvd's become the reference print?


Bottom line: home viewing in general these days is amazing (especially compared to what we had just a few years ago ; no choice except pan and scanned VHS's). With new dvd's and blu rays being released every day, mostly in original AR's, we have great access and it's wonderful. I am very thankful for that, and I know that if the worst problem we ever have is having 2% chopped off each side of 1.85:1 movies, we'll be in good shape. But I still think it is wrong; studios should have learned by now to follow a simple rule in all situations: JUST KEEP THE PICTURE AS RELEASED; WE ALWAYS WANT TO SEE THE FULL PICTURE THAT WAS SHOT, SO KEEP IT IN EXACTLY THE INTENDED ASPECT RATIO, AND WE WILL HAPPILY ACCEPT THE BLACK BARS THAT COME ALONG WITH IT. JUST KEEP THE MOVIE IN THE EXACT ASPECT RATIO IN WHICH IT WAS INTENDED, PERIOD!


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 21, 2012, 05:19:39 PM
Mat,

thanks for your awesome work.

here is how I understand it, and let me know if I am wrong:

RE: the 24 minutes that were added: Scorcese knew that Leone preferred that the movie have those 24 minutes.
And there are an additional 20 minutes that may be added soon as well, for a total of about 45 extra minutes, right?

Then the question is, why were those additional 20 minutes not added in already? Is it because they weren't found? Too damaged for restoration? Scorcese wasn't sure if Leone wanted them in? Scorcese thinks that 4:13 is a decent length, but 4:35 is too long?

I just hope that when the dvd is released, it includes all the footage that they have and are able to restore. I would really hate it if after all this, they release a dvd that has this 4:13 version, with another 20 minutes of scenes in the Special Features section of the dvd. (Fan edits, anyone?  ;)) I just hope they release it ALL, once and for all!


(p.s. another advantage that releasing all the material would have is this: if a very small portion of the movie is of bad picture quality, it is jarring and there is little chance that it can be viewed of as a single film; rather, it will be viewed of like its just some "deleted scenes" or something. But if a significant chunk of the movie has the poor quality, it may actually have the paradoxical affect of making it all easier to accept. if less than 1/10 of a movie is bad quality, you don't consider it part of the movie. But if 45 minutes -- ie. a full 1/6 of the movie -- is of poor quality, that is a very significant amount of footage; it is hard to mentally consider so much material as "deleted scenes." 24 minutes can be considered "deleted scenes"; 45 minutes is a part of the movie; that's too long to be considered "deleted scenes."So IMO, the longer the new material is, the easier it is to accept this restored version as being a single version of the movie, as opposed to merely being some "deleted scenes."  I guess I am focusing here on the subconscious. Who knows.....  ;)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on May 21, 2012, 06:27:43 PM
Still, they should have been supplied as extras on a new DVD/Blu-ray, not re-integrated into the film.

They might use seamless branching like the OUTITW blu-ray.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on May 21, 2012, 06:36:16 PM
With all this talk of film preservation, there is one point I have to make that is not really related but I have been thinking about it a lot lately and I feel it is at least somewhat related. Here goes:

It is great that with the advent of dvd's and widescreen tv's, movies are now generally being released in their original aspect ratio.

But what really irks me is that usually when I watch a dvd for a movie whose original AR is 1.85:1, the picture fills up the entire screen of my hdtv. Since hdtv's have a 1.78:1 AR, this means that they are chopping a bit off the sides of the picture! I know, the difference between 1.78:1 and 1.85:1 is very little; we "only" lose 4% off the sides. So 2% off the right side and 2% off the left side seems to be no big deal (and it is certainly far better than pan and scanning, which completely destroyed a widescreen movie). But it just irks me why then studios do this. Showing the full picture of a 1.85:1 movie on a 1.78:1 tv requires putting TINY black bars on top and bottom of the screen -- just a small fraction the size of the very large black bars that we are happy to live with horizontally for 2.35:1 movies, and vertically for 4:3 movies. If we are happy to live with the huge black bars for letterboxed or pillarboxd movies, then why do they think we wouldn't be happy living with tiny horizontal bars for 1.85:1 movies?

I think anybody here would prefer the full picture + tiny horizontal black lines, rather than filling the screen at the cost of having 2% of the picture chopped on each side. But I guess they care about mainstream idiots more than real fans like us.

What makes this even worse is that the studios should have learned their lesson by this point: how over time, formats of viewing technology continuously change; and that changing the original features of a movie for the sake of "accommodating" a particular time period can lead to permanently screwing up a work of art.

For example, what if in 20 years from now, the AR for tv's change to 2:1. For movies that were released in 1.85:1 but the dvd's in 1.78:1, will they have preserved the original theatrical aspect ratio for future home viewing formats? What will they do now  to accommodate these theoretical 2:1 tv's -- will they say, "the difference is too big, we can't cut that much to fill the screen; rather, we will live with the black bars on the sides"? or will they say, "let's just cut a bit off the top and bottom to fill the 2:1 screen"! Will they use the real 1.85:1 version as the reference print, or will these butchered 1.78:1 dvd's become the reference print?


Bottom line: home viewing in general these days is amazing (especially compared to what we had just a few years ago ; no choice except pan and scanned VHS's). With new dvd's and blu rays being released every day, mostly in original AR's, we have great access and it's wonderful. I am very thankful for that, and I know that if the worst problem we ever have is having 2% chopped off each side of 1.85:1 movies, we'll be in good shape. But I still think it is wrong; studios should have learned by now to follow a simple rule in all situations: JUST KEEP THE PICTURE AS RELEASED; WE ALWAYS WANT TO SEE THE FULL PICTURE THAT WAS SHOT, SO KEEP IT IN EXACTLY THE INTENDED ASPECT RATIO, AND WE WILL HAPPILY ACCEPT THE BLACK BARS THAT COME ALONG WITH IT. JUST KEEP THE MOVIE IN THE EXACT ASPECT RATIO IN WHICH IT WAS INTENDED, PERIOD!


Actually they usually (but not always) open the image up slightly from 1.85 to 1.78 so you are actually getting a little more information top and bottom on the DVD/BD release.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: MatViola on May 21, 2012, 06:51:11 PM
d&d,

I don't know any more than you do. I'm sure we're talking about the same 40 minutes as before, but why it wasn't already restored, I can't say. I'm sure that if Scorsese "knows" that Leone wanted to restore the first 20 minutes, he must also "know" that Leone wanted to restore the other 20 minutes. Otherwise, he wouldn't be thinking about adding it back in. Maybe the footage is more degraded and it's going to take longer to restore it. Who knows?

But I'd like to ask Scorsese how he "knows" Leone wanted it restored. Does he "know" what Leone himself said about it in 1988? Can someone get Marty on the phone please?

Mat   


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 21, 2012, 07:11:00 PM
Actually they usually (but not always) open the image up slightly from 1.85 to 1.78 so you are actually getting a little more information top and bottom on the DVD/BD release.

so you are saying that when a movie is released in theaters at 1.85:1 but the dvd is 1.78:1, it is because they ADD more on top and bottom rather than removing from the sides?

Why would they not show the full picture in theaters?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 21, 2012, 07:25:31 PM
d&d,

I don't know any more than you do. I'm sure we're talking about the same 40 minutes as before, but why it wasn't already restored, I can't say. I'm sure that if Scorsese "knows" that Leone wanted to restore the first 20 minutes, he must also "know" that Leone wanted to restore the other 20 minutes. Otherwise, he wouldn't be thinking about adding it back in. Maybe the footage is more degraded and it's going to take longer to restore it. Who knows?

But I'd like to ask Scorsese how he "knows" Leone wanted it restored. Does he "know" what Leone himself said about it in 1988? Can someone get Marty on the phone please?

Mat   

Well Frayling says that Leone very reluctantly cut these 45-50 minutes, which he called "significant material." And I am sure that Scorcese spoke to many people originally involved with the making/editing of the movie, who probably confirmed this.

yes, you have the statement that Leone made a while later that the 229MV is the best version. But I am sure many people involved said that Leone really wanted those 45-50 minutes in. Who knows what Leone would say if he were alive today. But I think it is pretty safe to say that during the time of the movie's release, Leone really wanted those 45-50 minutes in. (Although in the very same paragraph, Frayling says that Leone's preferred version was between 4:10 -- 4:25; so somewhere, Frayling got his math wrong; 3:49 + 45-50 minutes = 4:34 -- 4:39, not 4:10 -- 4:25). Either way, I think Leone preferred that these scenes be included. Besides, even if we had no way of knowing Leone's opinion on the matter, I am still happy they are doing this restoration: let them put back whatever they can find, and then let each fan decide what to consider as his definitive version.

------

So we know that according to Frayling "Leone had 10 hours of usable footage in the can." I don't know what "usable footage" means; I can't imagine that it means enough footage to actually release a 10-hour movie; I mean, how many more elements could there be to this story???? But he did have thoughts of releasing a 2-part movie, so I think there is enough footage for something like a 6 hour movie (he only cut it down to the 4 and a half hour version, and finally the 3:49 version, once he realized it was only going to be a single movie, and not two parts). I'd love to get my hands on all 6 hours of footage. I mean, how much more could there be to this story? Does Noodles meet Max in hell, and God tells them that as atonement for their sins, their souls are forced to return to Earth? Do Old Deborah and Old Carol start having a lesbian affair (actually there is no such thing as "elderly Deborah"  ;)) From the shooting script that we have, all I hve seen are those scenes that would comprise the extra 50 minutes (Frayling lists those scenes, and they match up to basically the rest of the shooting script). I have no idea what material there is that would equal 6 hours. Though I'd sure love to find out, if it exists  ;)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: MatViola on May 21, 2012, 07:35:15 PM
d&d,

Now you're just getting downright greedy.  >:D

Mat


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 21, 2012, 07:55:02 PM
d&d,

Now you're just getting downright greedy.  >:D

Mat

when it comes to Leone, I certainly am  :)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Garry Cowell on May 22, 2012, 04:35:56 AM
Still, they should have been supplied as extras on a new DVD/Blu-ray, not re-integrated into the film.
They wouldn't have got funding to do so if that's all they were doing. They needed to added them back as a so called "Director's Cut" in order to get the movie into cinemas to recoup the cost. They did a similar thing with Close Encounters and Alien.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Garry Cowell on May 22, 2012, 04:44:03 AM
Actually they usually (but not always) open the image up slightly from 1.85 to 1.78 so you are actually getting a little more information top and bottom on the DVD/BD release.
Correct!


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: MatViola on May 22, 2012, 05:13:19 AM
Another interesting article:

http://www.forgottensilver.net/2012/05/21/il-etait-une-fois-en-amerique-la-restauration-du-film/


Between wanting to honor the memory of Sergio Leone by providing mounting Once Upon a Time in America as he had designed, and the technical constraints of such a project, there is a gap that is sometimes difficult cross. In announcing nearly two years will give 40 minutes in the editing of the film to finally do make that 25, the Leone family seems to have encountered some technical problems.
The preferred mounting of Leone lasted over four hours, Scorsese explains in the press kit. "He had to make cuts douloureus itself, to bring the film to 3:49 in 1984. But finally, today, some sections missing equipment was located and reinserted into the film under the supervision of the Leone family and colleagues still with us. "
So it seems that everything could not be found or exploited, making this new assembly version closer to the intentions of the director, but not assemble hoped two years ago. Indeed, Scorsese does not hide his desire to return one day, in the interview given last Saturday in Le Monde: "There we found the twenty minutes that I hope to add another twenty minutes later. When you really like a director, you want to see everything in a film. You want, for example, watch twenty minutes of 2001: A Space Odyssey-cut editing, even if it's Stanley Kubrick himself withdrew them. In the case of Once Upon a Time in America, I know that Leone wanted those twenty minutes are restored. "
One could of course call for opportunism, a common process to marketing, but Scorsese is one of the few to show interest in preserving works and it would make him a mock trial.

Gian Luca Farinelli, director of the Cinematheque of Bologna, already responsible for the magnificent restoration of the trilogy of the Man with No Name (unfortunately reserved for the Italian market) explains how they did it to reinstate the deleted scenes: "The images and early end cut scenes have allowed us to determine their exact position before they are cut and the new assembly is 4 hours 15 minutes. "

"The restoration and reassembly of the film are made in Italy," explains Davide Pozzi, director of the laboratory found the image (Immagine The Ritrovata). "Today, the film negative and other elements are kept in Los Angeles in the vaults of 20th Century Fox. The negative was scanned at 4K Warner Bros. Motion Picture Imaging (MPI and files were then recovered by our laboratory where a full digital restoration was the height, frame by frame. Phase longer and delicate restoration of this is undoubtedly the color correction, to recreate the atmosphere of soot and smoke from the 20s and 30s, and the colder the late '60s. As reference, we used the positive copy belonging to Martin Scorsese and is held at MoMA in New York. We also benefited from the experience and memories of many people who worked with Sergio Leone on the wire. The main challenge was the desire to reinstate the deleted scenes by Leone. A research group has worked for many months to this task. Special thanks to Franco Ferrini, one of the writer who gave us the shooting script, which was our main reference for the inclusion of deleted scenes, and the executive producer Claudio Mancini, editors and Alessandro Patrizia Ceresani Baragli, and Sergio Leone's assistant, Fausto Ancillai. These scenes were also considered lost. And technically, the homogéinité of these scenes was our biggest problem, because the negatives of these scenes no longer exist. The only material available were positive copies that were very poorly preserved. More difficult still, these copies were fired without any particular care because it was working copies for sound editors and assistant editors. Images in these coils were severely damaged, not only because of poor preservation conditions but also by their use as a working copy.

It is obviously still many gray areas on the elements found and restored, and the press sometimes tends to contradict the absence of details. As might be expected, the presentation in Cannes is the height in a certain indifference, as too often with the wonders presented in Cannes Classics but hopefully learn more in a future operation of this circuit, starting in June at its second showing at the festival in Bologna. We will return.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on May 22, 2012, 05:55:29 AM
Cool find.
The guy in the first comment said that DeNiro looked very moved. Which is cool, because DeNiro is not someone who shows his feeling offscreen.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on May 22, 2012, 06:52:06 AM
They wouldn't have got funding to do so if that's all they were doing. They needed to added them back as a so called "Director's Cut" in order to get the movie into cinemas to recoup the cost. They did a similar thing with Close Encounters and Alien.
It isn't a question of recouping costs, it's a matter of creating a new property that generates revenues now and into the future. In the case of OUATIA, we are now 28 years into the life of its copyright. Copyright laws vary from country to country, of course, but I don't think there is anyplace where copyright is granted in perpetuity. Copyrights always expire. Rights holders are therefore happy when a new property is created that effectively extends the life of their copyright. The new "Restoration" cut or whatever they're going to call it is going to have a copyright life that begins in 2012.

It is naive to think that the 229 minute version will always be available to us. Anyone who has watched what Beatrice Welles has been up to with her father's films knows that rights holders can suppress earlier versions of a film in favor of a later "restoration." In our future world of streaming video, when DVD players are no longer being manufactured, the version of a film that you will be able to watch is the one the rights holders will have chosen for you.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: MatViola on May 22, 2012, 07:43:47 AM
Scorsese Interview:

http://www.lemonde.fr/festival-de-cannes/article/2012/05/18/il-etait-une-fois-sergio-leone-et-martin-scorsese_1702964_766360.html


Save movies from the ravages of time ... The Film Foundation, the body created by Martin Scorsese in 1990, a new survivor has to his credit: after, among others, The Red Shoes, Michael Powell and The Leopard by Luchino Visconti, now the American director moved at the bedside of Once Upon a Time in America. For this reason, clôturait Sergio Leone, in 1984, opened with his trilogy Once Upon a Time in the West (1969) and Once upon a time the revolution (1971). Long by 3 h 49, the story of two Jewish gangsters is a funeral elegy that owes as much to Proust and La Recherche du temps perdu at the Hollywood tradition. This was the last film by Sergio Leone, who died in 1989. The restored print, loaded with twenty minutes of deleted scenes, was selected at Cannes Classics, a program created in 2004 with old films and masterpieces of film history. On this occasion, Martin Scorsese returns to his meeting with Italian filmmaker, this masterly work, which deals with the end of the world - the America of Prohibition - and marks the end of a kind, one of the great epics the cinema.

When did you meet Sergio Leone for the first time?

It was at Cannes in 1976, during a dinner at the Oasis, the year when Taxi Driver was competing. There was Costa-Gavras, Sergio Leone, both members of the jury, I, Robert De Niro, Paul Schrader, the screenwriter of Taxi Driver, Jodie Foster, Michael and Julia Phillips, producers of the film. Paul Schrader had toasted Leone to thank him for having toured with Once Upon a Time in the West one of the greatest westerns in cinematic history. We had arrived two days earlier in Cannes and depression we had earned. Tennessee Williams, the jury foreman, told the press he did not like at all Taxi Driver, he was too violent. At dinner, Sergio Leone and Costa-Gavras told us they liked the film. We thought Taxi Driver could still win a prize, perhaps for his screenplay, or its actors. But it took the Palme d'Or! And that is thanks to Sergio Leone.

How has your relationship with him?

I lived partly in Rome between 1978 and 1981. I saw him regularly. Particularly at a luncheon at his home December 31, 1979. I met his wife, his family, met the set designer Dante Ferretti, with whom I will work later on The Age of Innocence, Casino, Kundun, Gangs of New York, Aviator and Hugo Cabret. He knew how much I loved Once Upon a Time in the West, he gave me his copy of the film. It is this copy that I projected in 1980 Film Festival in New York. It was the first time I spoke publicly about the crucial issue of the preservation of films, and more specifically the question of color, which happens if the coils are not kept properly. When Sergio Leone came to New York, I offered to come to dinner with my parents who still lived on the Lower East Side in a building without elevator. We went with Elio Petri (the director of The Working Class Goes to Heaven, Golden Palm at Cannes in 1972). He especially liked the Sicilian cooking from my mother, very different from Roman cuisine to which he was accustomed. And my mother was sensitive to his knife and fork!

At that time I was working on The King of Comedy with Robert De Niro. The film was produced by Arnon Milchan - would become the producer of Once Upon a Time in America. Leone had turned over ten years since it was once the revolution, and De Niro had not seen any of his films. As I still had a copy of Once Upon a Time in the West, he asked me if I could plan for De Niro. The latter discovered the film at the Museum of Modern Art, and he immediately accepted the role of the Jewish gangster.

What was your first impression face Once Upon a Time in America?

The film was released in the U.S. version of slaughtered 2 h 15, when that of Leone, released in Europe, lasted 3 hours 49. De Niro had organized a screening of the original Museum of Modern Art for my parents and friends and me. We were all impressed with the quality of images and saddened by the situation of the 1980s no longer allowed to produce such a work. Moreover, the film has nothing reported at the box office. I remember being struck by the accuracy of staging. Details of the sound and movement of actors. The sound triggers the memory. This is a very literary process, particularly in the opening sequence with the phone ringing that never ends.

How have you seen the first films of Sergio Leone?

I admit I was baffled by The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. French and English critics placed very high American westerns, those of Howard Hawks and John Ford in mind. And for a kid's Lower East Side like me, prone to asthma attacks, the horizons of the western addition corresponded to a specifically American. Suddenly, an Italian westerns, Sergio Leone signed ... I did not know what to think. When I saw Once Upon a Time in the West, I did not understand it either. Its slow me destabilized. There I had to revisit the film two years later on television to understand that Western did not need American roots. I got to his images, his music.

Leone did not fall as in the tradition of Western theatrical tradition in Italy is that of opera. He had his own way to deal with the archetypes of the genre. As in the commedia dell'arte with Harlequin, Punchinello, his characters wear masks, these masks and hide many others. This is actually a Russian doll. In Once Upon a Time in the West, each character reveals a different face in the course of history. Once Upon a Time in America has a comparable system. The film is constructed like a dream within another dream. It no longer relies on the archetypes of Hollywood cinema criminal, but on the codes of a myth, that of America in the 1930s, when it goes from anarchy to order.

Before making his westerns, Leone had signed epic films, The Last Days of Pompeii, The Colossus of Rhodes. He often told me jokingly that his great inspiration was ... Homer! His love of mythology into a passion for the myth of America. For him, the films of John Ford was a variant of classical myths. I think he felt that his films were slices of American history, like chapters in a textbook. In jest, he was fond of saying that He was once in America should have been entitled Once upon a time a certain type of cinéma.Le film takes place in the neighborhood of the Lower East Side, New York, where you grew up. This is one of the last to be filmed there.

The Lower East Side was a Jewish neighborhood and also Italian. The two communities lived side by side. My father found his own childhood. It was not that of a gangster, of course, but he recognized buildings, driveways, the street life. The scene where the kid prefers to eat his cake rather than giving it to the girl to sleep with her ... Personally, I had a problem with the last shot, the one with Robert De Niro lying in an opium den, which begins to smile. I did not understand, but my father, he had everything seized. He was very touched by the film and I could not understand why.

Maybe he grabbed the lead character in this film is not as Robert De Niro that death is omnipresent?

Absolutely. He was already old and it got him. How De Niro is disguised as old man, his approach: it is clear that the next step is death. The film is a long elegy. It is as if Leone had foreseen that this would be his last film. This may explain his side hieratic. We learned the death of Leone the first day of filming of Goodfellas. I had seen for the last time at the Venice Film Festival in 1988 at the screening of The Last Temptation of Christ. He was very emaciated, he asked me news of my parents.



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: MatViola on May 22, 2012, 07:44:31 AM
Continued:

What is the twenty extra minutes added to the restored version of Once Upon a Time in America presented in Cannes, May 18?

I think, very often, there is a difference between the original film and one that the director wanted. The original version depends on the producer, censorship too. I am always very curious to see the vision of the director. There we found the twenty minutes that I hope to add another twenty minutes later. When you really like a director, you want to see everything in a film. You want, for example, watch twenty minutes of 2001: A Space Odyssey-cut editing, even if it's Stanley Kubrick himself withdrew them. In the case of Once Upon a Time in America, I know that Leone wanted those twenty minutes are restored.

Can we discern the influence of Sergio Leone in your film?

I worked as editor on Shutter Island when I participated in the restoration of Once Upon a Time in the West. By dint of seeing the same scenes, to check color calibration, I found myself crying because I was so moved by the faces of the actors in close-up, by the movements of the camera, the simplicity of the dialogues. The faces are filmed as landscapes, in planes very close. The same thing happened with Once Upon a Time in America. I think we see the influence of Sergio Leone in Taxi Driver. My film is rather claustrophobic, but the framing is "Leone".

Gangs of New York is heavily influenced by Once Upon a Time in the West and Once Upon a Time in America. The boy who opens the door and discovered the city covered with snow in my film is an evocation of the boy's early Upon a Time in the West who fled the farm when he heard shots fire and is killed. The camera moves around a circular comedian, so typical of Leone, are among the effects that I have fully integrated. In my mind, Gangs of New York should have lasted five hours. Finally, we made the film we were able to do with the budget we had ... I believe that the days when you could do these great epic movies is over. That's probably why I've done for Boardwalk Empire television. The series draws heavily from Once Upon a Time in America. We are in the third season and already we are talking about a film of 42 hours. I have not done any. But I oversaw the whole.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 22, 2012, 11:08:37 AM
It isn't a question of recouping costs, it's a matter of creating a new property that generates revenues now and into the future. In the case of OUATIA, we are now 28 years into the life of its copyright. Copyright laws vary from country to country, of course, but I don't think there is anyplace where copyright is granted in perpetuity. Copyrights always expire. Rights holders are therefore happy when a new property is created that effectively extends the life of their copyright. The new "Restoration" cut or whatever they're going to call it is going to have a copyright life that begins in 2012.

It is naive to think that the 229 minute version will always be available to us. Anyone who has watched what Beatrice Welles has been up to with her father's films knows that rights holders can suppress earlier versions of a film in favor of a later "restoration." In our future world of streaming video, when DVD players are no longer being manufactured, the version of a film that you will be able to watch is the one the rights holders will have chosen for you.

(Intellectual Property Law never interested me and I don't know anything about it. Anyway...)
 
I truly believe that the motivation of the people involved in the OUATIA restoration -- Leone's children, Scorcese and the Film Foundation -- is to truly restore this film to what Sergio Leone wanted. Scorcese has made film restoration his life's work (in addition to his own filmmaking, of course); his Film Foundation has restored over 500 films already. I'd doubt that they make much, if any, money off it. It is Scorcese's passion, as a lifelong lover of the cinema. They even needed contributions from Gucci; if this was a project that would have been believed to be profitable, they wouldn't need charitable contributions; they would have gotten funding from a major studio. The fact that no studio wanted to get behind this as a business venture, and it instead had to be done through charitable foundations dedicated to film preservation, should tell you all you need to know about how financially profitable they believed this venture would be.

 And Leone's children knew how this was their father's life's work; it took up more than a decade of his life, and he put his entire heart and soul into it, and I can't imagine how devastated he must have been when the movie was butchered. Yes, I believe that the people involved in this restoration are motivated by the desire to restore the movie to what Sergio wanted.

Of course, there is a need to recoup costs. Of course, I am sure they would love to make a profit on it if possible, and there is nothing wrong with that. As much as you may be interested in a project, you don't have limitless funds for it; there is no way the Film Foundation could have restored over 500 movies without I guess getting some money back, and through contributions and donations from outside parties; even if something is a labor of love, it can't bankrupt you.

So the bottom line is that while in a perfect world, of course they would love to make back the money they put into it, or perhaps even make a profit, I believe 100% beyond any doubt whatsoever that what motivated Scorcese and the Leone children to do this was the interest in seeing this great movie restored to what Sergio wanted. If anyone believes that the reason this restoration was done  was just to get a few bucks, what can I tell you, I can't possibly disagree with you more on that.

------

As for the issue of whether the 229MV will always be available: it's true, we don't know what the viewing formats of home entertainment will be in the future. But I believe that as long as there is a market for a product, it will be available commercially. (And as long as there are those with a big enough interest in a product and the willingness to support it charitably, it will be available even if not economically profitable). I don't think that this restoration -- whether it remains at the current 24 extra minutes, or whether they find another 20 minutes ultimately bringing the new version to more tahn four and a half hours --  will completely supplant the 229MV anytime soon, especially if the difference in quality of the restored scenes is as drastic as we now believe it is. And even if some format like video streaming completely overtakes dvd's sometime soon, you can always keep your dvd player and the dvd's you own. I still have a VCR for some videotapes that i had when i was younger; one day maybe I'll be able to transfer them all to dvd, but for now I still have the tapes and the VCR. They are still selling VCR's -- only in combination with a dvd player, but still, they are selling them. Many people still have records and record players. Even when a new format overtakes an old one, it takes decades and decades for the old one to completely vanish. And as time goes by we get more and more video technology that people can do in their own home, more and more "fan edits," and anything that is not available commercially is still available to hardcore fans and anyone who makes an interest in it. Nobody can know the future, but dj, I would be happy to make  a bet with you right now that the 229MV will be available to anyone who wants it in 20 years from now. If we are still on The Sergio Leone Web Board and on speaking terms on May 22, 2032, let's check back with each other and see if the 229MV of OUATIA is available. The loser has to buy the winner a copy of the version of of OUATIA of their choosing, in the format of their choosing, from all the versions and formats available at that time  :)


Title: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on May 24, 2012, 08:48:56 PM
scenes has been allready reinserted in to the new reconstructed extended version  approx 255 minutes long (i think this is closest to the director's version i am sure his version much longer than this)

scenes has not been yet recovered includes

A love scene with Deborah as a young girl

Garbage truck scene from 1930s

A crane dredging the river bringing the movie back to 1968

there is more scenes

scenes that has been found and reinserted in to the reconstructed extended version

1) 3min 49secs
Noodles and the director of the cemetery in Riverdale (Louise Fletcher)
Appearance of an ominous black Cadillac

(http://www.forgottensilver.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Once-upon-a-time-in-America-5-fletcher-600x805.jpg)

2) 1min 17secs
Extended scene where the car driven by Noodles sinks into the lake.
The gang struggling between the waters and a crane dredging soil and debris.
Anxiety when Noodles does not resurface.

mounted together with: 1min 56sec
Noodles walking outside Bailey's mansion sees a car exploding after a few meters

3) 2min 6secs
At the entrance of the theater, Noodles communicates with the driver before the arrival of Deborah (1933)

(http://www.forgottensilver.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Once-upon-a-time-in-America-5-cut_theatre-600x413.jpg)

4) 2min 25secs
Eve meeting with Noodles in speakeasy, then they embrace in hotel room (1933)

mounted together with: 2min 30secs
Bedroom scene Eve and Noodles

(http://www.filmreference.com/images/sjff_01_img0364.jpg)

mounted together with: 0min 30secs
Noodles awakes sees Eve's thank you note signed Deborah

mounted together with: 0min 35secs
Deborah drinking coffee at restaurant next to Railway Station

(http://www.forgottensilver.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Once-upon-a-time-in-America-5-cut_bar-600x766.jpg)

5) 2min 18secs
Deborah plays Cleopatra in Shakespeare's theater. Noodles is present in the audience (1968).

(http://www.forgottensilver.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Once-upon-a-time-in-America-5-cut_cleo-600x467.jpg)

6) 5min 8secs
While the guests arrive, Bailey has a discussion in his private study with Jimmy O'Donnell

(Quote) Martin Scorsese interview we found these scenes, I hope later add more scenes to make it as closest as director intended, when you really like a director you want to see everything in a film


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 24, 2012, 10:17:59 PM
I really would like to see the additional love scene between Young Noodles and Young Deborah.

This is another plot point that IMO is seriously flawed in the 229MV, though I don't think I ever mentioned it here: So we see Noodles and Deborah making out in the store, where she tells him that although she loves him, he will always be a two-bit punk and therefore he can never be her man. And indeed, then Max calls him out, he gets beaten up, and then she refuses to open the door to let him back in. So she has made the decision: as much as I have feelings for him, I will not live my life with a gangster, and I am locking you out of my life. Okay.

The next time we see Noodles and Deborah is when he gets out of prison: she comes to see him in the speakeasy, and says she had been counting the days for him to get out of prison. And later on their date, she speaks with great emotion about how he is the only one whom she ever truly cared about or something like that.

This is very inconsistent: first, we see Young Deborah locking Noodles out of her life; then, once he gets out, suddenly we see that she really had great feelings for him????!!!!!! That is really a major hole for me.
Therefore, when, on their big date, she speaks with great emotion about how he is the only one that she truly cared about, I never ever found that convincing. I always say to myself, "come on, you locked him out of your life long ago!" it makes no sense why after locking him out of her life, she would be counting the days for him to get out of prison and then speaking about how much she cares for him. So while I always understood how Noodles had this crazy obsession with her for all these years, I was never convinced as to her having the same deep feelings for him. IMO A major flaw on an important point of the movie.

HOWEVER, if there is a love scene with the two of them as children that occurs after the part where she locked him out of her life, then this all makes sense! That would show that even though the rational side of her said she was finished with him, she had these deep feelings for him and she went back to him; so at the time he was arrested, they were indeed together. So IMO having another Young Noodles&Deborah love scene occur after the scene where she locks him out, is extremely important for me.

As we've discussed many times, there are many plot points that aren't quite explained properly in this movie, and some of them are fixed with the restored scenes: (eg. how Noodles meets Eve, why Noodles cares so much about the Bailey scandal on the news, etc.) But this point I've discussed here about the love between Noodles-Deborah is as crucial as any of the other holes in the 229MV; without it, I never saw any justification for shy she would care about him so much. So I would be absolutely thrilled if this scene will be put back into the movie. It is not among the scenes that were shown at Cannes, but it seems quite possible, based on the quotes by Scorcese I've seen in the articles posted and translated here, that they may restore more scenes (if they can find them). While I hope that they find and restore all of the approximately 25 minutes that are still missing from the version shown at Cannes 2012, this love scene is IMO one of the most important.

(I'd also like to see ALL of the scenes with Eve; some were restored so far, but not all. It works better if they are all restored).


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: moviesceleton on May 27, 2012, 01:24:41 AM
What's the source of those pics?


Title: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on May 27, 2012, 01:29:44 AM
What's the source of those pics?

here

http://www.faubourgsainthonoreguide.com/mode_/gucci-sheds-light-on-sergio-leone (http://www.faubourgsainthonoreguide.com/mode_/gucci-sheds-light-on-sergio-leone)

it's production pics i don't know what is real restoration look like i guess we'll see upon release on bluray

there is also video (scenes doesn't look that good my guess is that the best they could done because scenes itself was in bade state)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIuLFIm2mQQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIuLFIm2mQQ)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a2anLcFXeo&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a2anLcFXeo&feature=related)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Head Down on May 27, 2012, 04:05:36 PM
Without being cynical, I don't what to think of this, to tell you the truth.  It's always nice that a great film gets attention so it's not forgotten, but sometimes I wish they would just have these extra scenes as a bonus on the DVD.  "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly"  is kind of ruined for me with the new scenes they put in (thankfully, you can skip right over them).  From what I've read (and who knows what to believe) Leone was happy with the 4 hour version of "America" as is.  If he was still alive to do this stuff himself, I'd probably feel a little more positive about it.  Such a great film...why mess with it... 

But I guess I should keep quiet until I actually see the new version...maybe it'll surprise me. 



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 28, 2012, 10:47:34 PM
Without being cynical, I don't what to think of this, to tell you the truth.  It's always nice that a great film gets attention so it's not forgotten, but sometimes I wish they would just have these extra scenes as a bonus on the DVD.  "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly"  is kind of ruined for me with the new scenes they put in (thankfully, you can skip right over them).  From what I've read (and who knows what to believe) Leone was happy with the 4 hour version of "America" as is.  If he was still alive to do this stuff himself, I'd probably feel a little more positive about it.  Such a great film...why mess with it... 

But I guess I should keep quiet until I actually see the new version...maybe it'll surprise me. 



the long version of GBU is actually Leone's version (besides the Cave Scene); United Artists cut those scenes for the American release. If you have a problem with the longer version, don't blame the restoration, blame Leone.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Head Down on May 29, 2012, 02:59:37 AM
the long version of GBU is actually Leone's version (besides the Cave Scene); United Artists cut those scenes for the American release. If you have a problem with the longer version, don't blame the restoration, blame Leone.
Let me explain what I meant - how can you blame Leone, dead for 14 years or so by then, for bringing back actors 35 years later to overdub their voices, and come up with a guy to imitate Lee Van Cleef's voice after he's dead as well?  That's what I'm talking about,,,it's not the scenes, it's the older/different voices that have a jarring effect to me.  And since they weren't overdubbed to begin with because they were cut by UA, I would think Leone's hardly the one to blame. 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 29, 2012, 10:15:03 AM
Let me explain what I meant - how can you blame Leone, dead for 14 years or so by then, for bringing back actors 35 years later to overdub their voices, and come up with a guy to imitate Lee Van Cleef's voice after he's dead as well?  That's what I'm talking about,,,it's not the scenes, it's the older/different voices that have a jarring effect to me.  And since they weren't overdubbed to begin with because they were cut by UA, I would think Leone's hardly the one to blame.  

there's now way to know what Leone would have wanted if he was alive today. But considering that he wanted those scenes in the movie when it was released, I am glad they released those scenes now. (Even with the dubbing; that's better than nothing). Just like I am glad they released the scenes from OUATIA, even though the quality is significantly different


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: PaulAW on May 29, 2012, 04:00:41 PM
Much as I like all the stuff that's going to be put in, there's something which I hope they take out, which is on the DVD and Blu-Ray editions. Namely the lame flashback during the last meeting between Noodles and Senator Bailey at the party. This was put in for the TV showings I believe, but never featured in the European cinema release. It always irritates me and I'm sure it was added by 'other hands'. I'm lucky to have the 'original' version on Laserdisc (having got rid of my VHS copies some years ago). It's inclusion works directly against Noodle's dialogue and the intimate nature of the scene, with it's quiet conclusion. Does anybody know? BTW I'm equally annoyed by the scene of Charles Bronson getting up after the opening gunfight in 'Once Upon a Time in the West'!


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on May 29, 2012, 08:25:13 PM
Much as I like all the stuff that's going to be put in, there's something which I hope they take out, which is on the DVD and Blu-Ray editions. Namely the lame flashback during the last meeting between Noodles and Senator Bailey at the party. This was put in for the TV showings I believe, but never featured in the European cinema release. It always irritates me and I'm sure it was added by 'other hands'. I'm lucky to have the 'original' version on Laserdisc (having got rid of my VHS copies some years ago). It's inclusion works directly against Noodle's dialogue and the intimate nature of the scene, with it's quiet conclusion. Does anybody know? BTW I'm equally annoyed by the scene of Charles Bronson getting up after the opening gunfight in 'Once Upon a Time in the West'!

Very interesting point. Is the fact that the flashback is a later insert confirmed anywhere?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 29, 2012, 09:02:54 PM
If it is true that the studio inserted that flashback and it was not done by Leone, then it indeed should not be included, just like the Harmonica Rising scene should not be included in the dvd's of OUATITW. (Once Paramount cut out the trading post scene, then I guess it was necessary to add in the Rising scene; but once the trading post scene was restored, no doubt the Rising scene should have been removed, and included only as an extra on the dvd.

But are you sure that that flashback was not included in Leone's 229 minute cut of the movie?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 29, 2012, 09:04:40 PM
Throughout the discussion of the restored scenes on OUATIA, there has been a lot of interspersed discussion about the restored scenes of GBU. I realized that as far as I know, we do not have a thread that is dedicated to a scene-by-scene breakdown of all the restored scenes in GBU, and therefore I created one http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=11287.msg156676#msg156676


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cheem_2000 on May 30, 2012, 07:38:21 AM
As I have said before its a great privilege to see any scenes that have been rediscovered and put in the film Once Upon a Time in America. I would say that the flashback scene where Noodles seems to be contemplating whether to shoot 'Mr Bailey' was a beautiful touch. We have just sat through four hours of sumptuous images and music. Its seems only correct to insert a flashback showing past scenes of childhood (remember this is a film where 'time is the protagonist' as Leone put it) Regarding the scene where Charles Bronson gets up from the shootout, again I am happy to see the elegance and artistry of the camera movements(the close up of Charles Bronson's eye as he wakes out of consciousness etc) On another subject, watching the RV version of the scene where James Woods and the rest of the gang pop up out of the water I am praying that there is Morricone's theme 'Once upon a Time In America' over that scene as is played on this Italian clip. It is so rich and full of meaning showing their childlike behaviour which is so poignant in juxtaposition to their life of crime.  I know that earlier in the scene when Max asks if Noodles wants to go for a swim 'Photographic Memories' is heard in the background.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on May 30, 2012, 12:05:52 PM
Very interesting point. Is the fact that the flashback is a later insert confirmed anywhere?

No, it was always there from the beginning on, at least if it is in the 229 min version, which I haven't checked yet.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on May 30, 2012, 12:08:21 PM
Regarding the scene where Charles Bronson gets up from the shootout, again I am happy to see the elegance and artistry of the camera movements(the close up of Charles Bronson's eye as he wakes out of consciousness etc)

But it destroys some of the film's narrative brilliance. For that alone it is a very "bad" scene. I wish Leone had never shot it. It wasn't in the shooting script.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 30, 2012, 01:58:27 PM
Regarding the scene where Charles Bronson gets up from the shootout, again I am happy to see the elegance and artistry of the camera movements(the close up of Charles Bronson's eye as he wakes out of consciousness etc)

well the fact is that Leone did not put that scene in the movie's final cut. I am all for having every foot of film that was shot as an extra in the dvd, but the feature film should be exactly as Leone intended.


Title: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on May 31, 2012, 01:15:04 AM
Original Negatives and Restored

there is more information on all four sides in restored

(http://www.sportetstyle.fr/uploads/visuels/thumbnails/gal1-gucci.jpg)

(http://www.sportetstyle.fr/uploads/visuels/thumbnails/gal2-gucci.jpg)

(http://www.sportetstyle.fr/uploads/visuels/thumbnails/gal3-gucci.jpg)

(http://www.sportetstyle.fr/uploads/visuels/thumbnails/gal4-gucci.jpg)

(http://www.sportetstyle.fr/uploads/visuels/thumbnails/gal11-gucci.jpg)

(http://www.sportetstyle.fr/uploads/visuels/thumbnails/gal12-gucci.jpg)

(http://www.sportetstyle.fr/uploads/visuels/thumbnails/gal5-gucci.jpg)

(http://www.sportetstyle.fr/uploads/visuels/thumbnails/gal6-gucci.jpg)

(http://www.sportetstyle.fr/uploads/visuels/thumbnails/gal7-gucci.jpg)

(http://www.sportetstyle.fr/uploads/visuels/thumbnails/gal8-gucci.jpg)

(http://www.sportetstyle.fr/uploads/visuels/thumbnails/gal9-gucci.jpg)

(http://www.sportetstyle.fr/uploads/visuels/thumbnails/gal10-gucci.jpg)


I just hope they going to release movie on bluray in the intended original aspect ratio 1.85:1

restored scenes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIuLFIm2mQQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIuLFIm2mQQ)

(scene) Noodles and the director of the cemetery in Riverdale (Louise Fletcher)
Appearance of an ominous black Cadillac

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a2anLcFXeo&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a2anLcFXeo&feature=related)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Shambaby on May 31, 2012, 07:23:37 AM
The Noodles and Max flashback scene was in the original version shown at Cannes in 1984.  it was restored with the first DVD release.  It was mostly violent scenes that were cut from the Cannes version.  I don't know why they had cut the flashback.  I think the scene will work better with the other restored scenes, especially Treat Williams.   


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 31, 2012, 10:00:41 AM
The Noodles and Max flashback scene was in the original version shown at Cannes in 1984.  it was restored with the first DVD release.  It was mostly violent scenes that were cut from the Cannes version.  I don't know why they had cut the flashback.  I think the scene will work better with the other restored scenes, especially Treat Williams.  


So that final flashback of Noodles and Max as children -- which occurs in the minds of of the two of them in Bailey's office -- was definitely put there by Leone?

That is good to hear. When someone mentioned here that it was added in later by the studio, that was the first I had ever heard of it. So it's good to hear that that is not true, and that it actually belongs in the movie  O0




Title: Re: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 31, 2012, 10:06:43 AM
Original Negatives and Restored

there is more information on all four sides in restored



I just hope they going to release movie on bluray in the intended original aspect ratio 1.85:1

restored scenes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIuLFIm2mQQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIuLFIm2mQQ)

(scene) Noodles and the director of the cemetery in Riverdale (Louise Fletcher)
Appearance of an ominous black Cadillac

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a2anLcFXeo&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a2anLcFXeo&feature=related)

1) Aren't all of these shots already in the movie? I don't see why they are included in the restored negatives.

2) These restored shots look damn good. On the youtube videos we've seen, the restored scenes look much much worse than the rest of the movie.

3) Don't get your hopes up about having the movie released in 1.85:1. Almost all dvd/BR of 1.85:1 movies seem to crop it to fit the 1.78:1 hdtv screen. It's totally ridiculous; I think any real fan would prefer tiny black bars on top and bottom rather than having a bit of the sides of the picture cut off, but the fact is that that's what the idiots  do. So I wouldn't get my hopes up about actually getting a 1.85:1 version of the movie  >:(


Title: Re: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: stanton on May 31, 2012, 12:17:26 PM


3) Don't get your hopes up about having the movie released in 1.85:1. Almost all dvd/BR of 1.85:1 movies seem to crop it to fit the 1.78:1 hdtv screen. It's totally ridiculous; I think any real fan would prefer tiny black bars on top and bottom rather than having a bit of the sides of the picture cut off, but the fact is that that's what the idiots  do. So I wouldn't get my hopes up about actually getting a 1.85:1 version of the movie  >:(

That's again wrong. Most films which were shot for 1,85:1 are on their DVDs in 1,85:1. My OUTA is in 1.85:1, and that's basically the same DVD Warner sold in the whole world.

But that does not necessarily mean that your TV show the complete 1;85:1 image.

But frankly said in theatres you also often don't see the complete image of a film.

And besides the difference between 1,85:1 and 1,78:1 is only marginal.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 31, 2012, 12:34:23 PM
So now the playing of Cockeye's tune in the mausoleum is diegetic? That isn't an audio memory that Noodles is experiencing, that the audience gets to share? Noodles is actually hearing it playing through some kind of amazing-for-1968 sound system cleverly hidden in the "haven"? Well, that right there ruins things for me. Not to mention the fact that its presence is "explained" in a way that raises more questions than it answers. Max had a tape of Cockeye playing his theme? A tape from a performance from 1933 or earlier? Did Cockeye cut a record once and Max saved it and committed it to tape once that format became generally available? Or was Max able to remember the tune so well that later he transcribed it for a musician who was able to perform just as Cockeye had all those years ago? And all just to be able to get to Mr. Williams' poise at the proper moment. I call BS on this whole element.


I just watched the scene in the mausoleum again (the scene in the 229MV, not the restored scene). The music of Cockeye's Tune is definitely playing in the mausoleum. It starts when Noodles opens the door, stops when he closes it, then since he is looking around to see what the hell is going on, he opens the door again, it starts again, and finally he shuts the door again and it stops.

So it was definitely playing on some sort of sensor -- it played when the door opened, and stopped when the door shut. Noodles doesn't know what the hell is going on and is looking around for the source of it. In the restored scene we find out that a tape of it was sent to the cemetery to play in the mausoleum, but in the 229MV it remains a mystery, just like the whole mystery of who erected the mausoleum. Whether you prefer the 229MV or the restored version, the music is definitely playing in the mausoleum.


I noticed another interesting point -- as the music is playing, and Noodles is looking at the names on the tombs of each of his friends, at one point the music switches from Cockeye's Tune to the Main Theme of OUATIA. Obviously, the theme was not playing in the mausoleum! I guess the theme playing there is meant imply that Noodles is recalling his childhood: as Cockeye's song is playing in the mausoleum and Noodles is looking around, he is recalling his childhood, symbolized by the playing of the main theme. Maybe the fact that Cockeye's Tune turns into the Main Theme is also a reference to the whole idea of the mixing of dream and reality, Noodles's real past with his present dreams, and the whole idea that cinema is a dream


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on May 31, 2012, 02:41:53 PM
I just watched the scene in the mausoleum again (the scene in the 229MV, not the restored scene). The music of Cockeye's Tune is definitely playing in the mausoleum. It starts when Noodles opens the door, stops when he closes it, then since he is looking around to see what the hell is going on, he opens the door again, it starts again, and finally he shuts the door again and it stops.

So it was definitely playing on some sort of sensor -- it played when the door opened, and stopped when the door shut. Noodles doesn't know what the hell is going on and is looking around for the source of it. In the restored scene we find out that a tape of it was sent to the cemetery to play in the mausoleum, but in the 229MV it remains a mystery, just like the whole mystery of who erected the mausoleum. Whether you prefer the 229MV or the restored version, the music is definitely playing in the mausoleum.


I noticed another interesting point -- as the music is playing, and Noodles is looking at the names on the tombs of each of his friends, at one point the music switches from Cockeye's Tune to the Main Theme of OUATIA. Obviously, the theme was not playing in the mausoleum! I guess the theme playing there is meant imply that Noodles is recalling his childhood: as Cockeye's song is playing in the mausoleum and Noodles is looking around, he is recalling his childhood, symbolized by the playing of the main theme. Maybe the fact that Cockeye's Tune turns into the Main Theme is also a reference to the whole idea of the mixing of dream and reality, Noodles's real past with his present dreams, and the whole idea that cinema is a dream

Thanks for checking  ;)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 31, 2012, 03:54:17 PM
Thanks for checking  ;)

1) I never really picked up on that point of the music playing in the mausoleum until I read it somewhere (I believe in STDWD). Perhaps they should have used a different audio track: I mean, when music is diegetic is sounds different, but in this scene it is sounds like it's on the same audio track that  rest of the score does (and the same track that the Main Theme -- which is definitely not diagetic -- is playing in the same scene). I am not sure if I am using the right words, but you know what I mean, how the music sounds different when it is diegetic/internal/playing IN the scene, as opposed to playing OVER the scene as most of a film score usually does. So maybe you can argue that Cockeye's song in the mausoleum should have sounded different than the rest of the score. But I guess that Leone had De Niro open and close the door multiple times in order to emphasize the point.



2) On an unrelated note: The more I think about it now, the more I realize that if Leone had indeed been able to release his preferred 4 and a half hour version of the movie -- with these scenes with the limo, etc. -- this movie perhaps would be considered more of a "Mystery" movie, it almost plays like a PI movie or something: (put differently, the Noodles character is as much Philip Marlowe as Little Caesar  ;)) But in the 229MV, all these questions about who brought Noodles back are really just peripheral to the major themes -- (the Gangster stuff being a vehicle for the themes of) Time, Dreams, Fantasy mixing with Reality, Cinema being a dream, etc. Maybe it's better as is, without turning into too much of a literal detective story?


3) And finally, I just read that interview with Scorcese that Mat Viola was kind enough to translate. Looks like Scorcese may hbe looking at restoring another 20 minutes, in addition to the 20-25 minutes already restored. (I guess this would combine for the 45-50 minutes of "significant material" Leone wanted in the film). It's not clear whether they have found those additional 20 minutes or not, and if they do put it in, what's going to happen to it: are they going to have yet another showing at some festival, this time with ALL the additional restored stuff? Why did they rush it to Cannes 2012 if they may soon have more material? I guess this may delay wide theatrical and/or dvd release, till they decide on what their final version is. I just hope that when they do release it on dvd, it includes EVERYTHING. Even if the film quality is drastically different: let's just get everything once and for all  :) As long as I know that there are people out there like Scorcese and the Leone children with the interest, capability, access, and money to restore The Master's works, I have hope that we may eventually get the best possible versions  :)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on May 31, 2012, 07:20:15 PM
In the restored scene we find out that a tape of it was sent to the cemetery to play in the mausoleum, but in the 229MV it remains a mystery, just like the whole mystery of who erected the mausoleum.

I am so glad the extended version clarifies this. I had always found the music rather awkward in this scene because there seemed to be no explanation for it other than background music.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 31, 2012, 08:26:56 PM
I am so glad the extended version clarifies this. I had always found the music rather awkward in this scene because there seemed to be no explanation for it other than background music.

well you do see Noodles turning his head back and forth and looking for something. He is actually looking for the source of the music, but that is not made clear. It seems like he could just be looking around in general confusion about the whole mausoleum. I understood that he was looking for the music, but only because I read it in STDWD (Frayling was familiar with all the deleted scenes)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cheem_2000 on June 06, 2012, 09:51:54 AM
But it destroys some of the film's narrative brilliance. For that alone it is a very "bad" scene. I wish Leone had never shot it. It wasn't in the shooting script.
It does not destroy any of the film's narrative brilliance. Admittedly, it would have been more of a shock to hear Harmonica's instrument in the tavern after not seeing the scene where he 'rises from the dead' at the station,  BUT I am happy to see every reel that Leone shot. And to be honest I am sure he if he was around will smile indulgently knowing that people want to see every inch of film he shot. I remember  reading in Christopher Frayling's biography where he quoted Leone as saying that when he was dead Leone would want to be remembered as entertaining people. Lets not split hairs too much abt what Leone wanted or not wanted. He wanted to entertain, mesmerise and fascinate us with his masterful mise en scene and elegant camera angles :)))


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on June 06, 2012, 10:22:30 AM
It does not destroy any of the film's narrative brilliance.

Oh it does. After seeing the film 15 or 20 times without that scene it was quite a shock to see it as part of the film.

I copied my explanation from another thread:

"
It is mainly because I think the film loses some of its narrative quality in the first 40 min because:

1. It is indeed superfluous and it is not very remarkable the way it is filmed. (But not a bad scene either)

2. Without the scene comes a direct cut from Woody Strode crushing down to the close-up of McBain's shotgun which then blazes. A beautiful cut to connect the 1st with the second scene and similar to the harsh cut from Fonda's shooting gun to the shrieking of the train which connects the 2nd with the 3rd scene.

3. Without the Rising scene you don't know what had exactly happened as it seems that all 4 which were introduced to us are dead or could be dead. And remember that at the end of the 2nd scene the whole McBain family, to which we were introduced for several minutes, got shot too. It is very daring and irritating that you don't know for over 20 min what had happened to Harmonica, and for even a much longer time what the film could be about. And I like this unusual way to tell a story very much.

4. Without the Rising scene the moment of Harmonica's 2nd appearance in the film which reveals that he is still alive (remember Bronson wasn't a star back then) is much more fascinating. When you for so long don't know what happened in the first scene the eerie Harmonica sound out of the dark and the thrown lamp which brings his face into the light is much more effective.

Believe me, if you have seen and enjoyed OUTW for 20 years without the Rising scene, it is very disappointing to see it now in. It destroys some of the greatness of the long and slow beginning. Somehow the including of this scene really bugs me."

I also liked it to see this scene, but not as actual part of the movie.



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on June 06, 2012, 11:01:45 AM
1) I never really picked up on that point of the music playing in the mausoleum until I read it somewhere (I believe in STDWD). Perhaps they should have used a different audio track: I mean, when music is diegetic is sounds different, but in this scene it is sounds like it's on the same audio track that  rest of the score does (and the same track that the Main Theme -- which is definitely not diagetic -- is playing in the same scene). I am not sure if I am using the right words, but you know what I mean, how the music sounds different when it is diegetic/internal/playing IN the scene, as opposed to playing OVER the scene as most of a film score usually does. So maybe you can argue that Cockeye's song in the mausoleum should have sounded different than the rest of the score. But I guess that Leone had De Niro open and close the door multiple times in order to emphasize the point.
I don't know if it is a Leone thing or an Italian film industry thing but this kind of thing comes up a lot in SL's films. I remember watching the trading post scene in OUATITW for the first time and enjoying what was obviously the non-diegetic harmonica music, only to have the camera suddenly reveal that Harmonica was playing the harmonica in the scene. An American film would never have done the scene like that; American soundtracks always assign different "sonic values"--for lack of a better way to put it--to diegetic and non-diegetic sounds. Thus it is never possible to confuse the two in American films. I've often wondered whether Leone was even aware of the diegetic/non-diegetic issue in the trading post scene, or if he was in fact aware of it but was purposely playing with audience understanding of where the music was coming from.

In the case of the crypt scene, there is no performer to pan to, and there is no visual representation of where the sound might be coming from. But it is now obvious, due to the inserted footage in the scene, that Leone intended us to understand that music was playing in the vault. I have seen the film many times since 1985, in cinemas and home video, and have never read the scene that way. And I have to say, the scene has been diminished in my eyes because of this over-explicitness. Until Groggy told me how he read the scene, I was happy to believe that the sene was about something else--that Noodles is having an epiphany of sorts, that he is contemplating the Ineffable, perhaps, or the Thingness in things, or whatever. But to find out that he's just checking out the sound system in the crypt is rather deflating. Without the new footage, it could still be a matter of interpretation. Groggy could read the scene his way, and I, while acknowledging the validity of the possibility of that reading, could have still read it my preferred way. But no more. Possibilities are closed off by the explicitness, thus impoverishing what had been a very rich scene.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on June 06, 2012, 11:35:37 AM
Why did they rush it to Cannes 2012 if they may soon have more material?
As I've mentioned before, the film's 30th anniversary is in 2014. Getting it to Cannes this year makes it possible to get out a new DVD/Blu-ray to all markets by 2014. If there is then additional material that can be used for a "restored-restored "version, there is still time to make the deadline for the 35th anniversary of the film.

Drink, Warners and the Leone family don't love you, they love your money. They are very happy to sell you the same title as many times as they can.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on June 06, 2012, 12:16:29 PM
Or the other scenes are in an even worse condition.

Restoring a film in pieces would be indeed a new idea to sell films. Perfect would be every year a new Blu with one additional scene.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 06, 2012, 02:58:47 PM


Drink, Warners and the Leone family don't love you, they love your money. They are very happy to sell you the same title as many times as they can.

the Leone family and Scorcese love Leone's works


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on June 06, 2012, 02:59:51 PM
Yeah, Jenkins. How dare you accuse artists of wanting to make a buck! Obviously they're above base concerns like money.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 06, 2012, 03:01:33 PM
I really don't think that Scorcese's Film Foundation was established for money-making purposes. Not that there would be anything wrong with it if it was


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on June 06, 2012, 03:02:42 PM
More likely they're trying to find a happy medium between art and commerce, like everyone else in the movies.


Title: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on June 07, 2012, 12:26:58 AM
Extended Scenes (before restoration)

(http://lostpic.net/images/9712f1db0319ba30963cb75f5705de67.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/ca78c139ae0ccf745b5d355dc46dbe18.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/1318561e012357279ab8aaece5b83d84.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/f65efe740735f091ded2c8182fb7b85b.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/3d009f2422bab82d2eada1f5182c53b8.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/dc683d62e92aab41ab8521d54da25983.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/eaae912995f868a4777408c388a400ff.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/58959709a236c675ca281787f8cd734d.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/2ee99baaad0136e06797a60b1cda2d24.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/c0e6c916718a87bef459b65c327509ac.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/3606c2b34020b60172f0e7a0af509cbc.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/60a1b9e9352609b9addcf6082171de13.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/ed6e9bc601506bedef4fe49152ffc76b.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/e8d3cf8678566851f5d976b93b1e106f.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/4777843fecc6de68ddca60c1470f1e55.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/ee435b59d926f0c6d84ce36cdb4289b6.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/139f970bce5697894e2235384e20f5e1.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/0a28c7fe3e3eb596f8c3b0197da63943.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/cdbe7a48b95c4e01b96011abdd13d84a.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/3a28761b14042af86057f52215585359.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/b3050eaf29bc5351398207ac2797a8d6.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/9396e998510e57d32c5c5ebeb9e24bce.jpg)

well i guess you can see condition of the scenes, but i hope maybe when releasing on video blu-ray they might highlight these extended scenes fix up liitle, color, contrast, and other things so it will mathch up with restore print a bit, with today software and technology anything is possible, but even if not i am still glad that we going to have longer version, story is now have more to explane than it was before


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 07, 2012, 01:14:54 AM
if the color of the new scenes is so bad, maybe they should just release the whole movie in black and white  ;)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 07, 2012, 01:54:24 AM
I don't know if it is a Leone thing or an Italian film industry thing but this kind of thing comes up a lot in SL's films. I remember watching the trading post scene in OUATITW for the first time and enjoying what was obviously the non-diegetic harmonica music, only to have the camera suddenly reveal that Harmonica was playing the harmonica in the scene. An American film would never have done the scene like that; American soundtracks always assign different "sonic values"--for lack of a better way to put it--to diegetic and non-diegetic sounds. Thus it is never possible to confuse the two in American films. I've often wondered whether Leone was even aware of the diegetic/non-diegetic issue in the trading post scene, or if he was in fact aware of it but was purposely playing with audience understanding of where the music was coming from.

In the case of the crypt scene, there is no performer to pan to, and there is no visual representation of where the sound might be coming from. But it is now obvious, due to the inserted footage in the scene, that Leone intended us to understand that music was playing in the vault. I have seen the film many times since 1985, in cinemas and home video, and have never read the scene that way. And I have to say, the scene has been diminished in my eyes because of this over-explicitness. Until Groggy told me how he read the scene, I was happy to believe that the sene was about something else--that Noodles is having an epiphany of sorts, that he is contemplating the Ineffable, perhaps, or the Thingness in things, or whatever. But to find out that he's just checking out the sound system in the crypt is rather deflating. Without the new footage, it could still be a matter of interpretation. Groggy could read the scene his way, and I, while acknowledging the validity of the possibility of that reading, could have still read it my preferred way. But no more. Possibilities are closed off by the explicitness, thus impoverishing what had been a very rich scene.


I don't think Leone was trying to trick us into thinking the music in the mausoleum was non-diegetic; I think Leoen tried to make it clear that it was diegetic all along, with the bit with the music starting and stopping on what was some sort of sensor as De Niro opened and closing the door (and as he looks around I think he sees some sort of vent where it is "piped in.") And Leone couldn't know at the time of filming that he'd be forced to cut the scene with Louise Fletcher (explaining the origin of the tape) due to timing concerns. Therefore, I don't think Leone ever intended to make it ambiguous as to whether the music was diegetic. Maybe for just a moment, yes, as it started as soon as Noodles opens the door; but as soon we realize it starts and stops as Noodles opens and closes the door, it's clear that it is diegetic, so I certainly don't think Leone intended it to be ambiguous enough that we wouldn't figure it out by the end of the scene, cuz he figured we'd see the scene with Louise Fletcher.

Either way, if he was trying to make it ambiguous, it's a careful line to straddle between making these ambiguous, and breaking the rules. And Leone may have landed on the wrong side of that line when he made the music in the mausoleum on the same track/"sonic value" as the rest of the score. And more importantly, what is really unfair is how that music of Cockeye's theme segways into the main theme of OUATIA -- on the same track/sonic value -- as Noodles is looking at the names on the graves of his buddies. Since that music is definitely not playing in the mausoleum but is just meant to represent Noodles's memories (the same music was used during Noodles's flashback to the his childhood in Bailey's study), it should not have played on the same track/sonic value as the diegetic Cockeye's Tune.....

But THEN AGAIN, I guess this only applies if you look at everything as really happening as we see it ion the screen.
Once you consider the whole fantasy element of OUATIA, you can really argue that in fact, this whole merging of the music represents the point of this miovieo: the mixing of fantasy and reality, of dreams and cinema and time. etc. Just like the famous shot of Noodles looking at the 30's cars just after the garbage truck passes in 1968.... or is it 1933? That scene where it seems to be 1968 and 1933 at the same time basically sums up the theme of the whole movie. Well maybe the music in the mausoleum is making the very same point in sound that that the scene with the 30's cars in 1968 is making in visuals: the diegetic Cockeye's Tune merging into the non-diegetic Main OUATIA Theme as Noodles looks at the names of his friends, representing the jogging of Noodles's memories)... the mixing of dream and reality, of fantasy and truth, of memories of time. The dream of cinema  :)




Title: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on June 08, 2012, 09:48:48 AM
Restoration process

(http://lostpic.net/images/5f64d1f06f6a0a8dfc19be4e08b6ca51.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/11924d177701283d56acfa5160a55c57.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/9c66e5745ef69738352f46d4f9bb41dd.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/7981cb1db3d7f4ba4fc466f8e8890f78.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/0af3b1c1913a9adaed221596318feade.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/92e82ba685d6fb17af09c5b7f864579e.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/b6409c9802f8d78d62ed87e9bc0db6b7.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/5d6ebd8df0b1e91ac51e34518ee6bd41.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/880200e95baab8377ffabc7d3f77b643.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/333368bd974f121f743f44dc93a03a97.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/1bad37b76605541bbd40bf0c005163a7.jpg)

The extended scenes doesn't look that bad after all, they highlighted new scenes color corected brightness contrast and all that, well all we have to wait for the blu-ray release and see.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on June 09, 2012, 01:08:12 PM
In the case of the crypt scene, there is no performer to pan to, and there is no visual representation of where the sound might be coming from. But it is now obvious, due to the inserted footage in the scene, that Leone intended us to understand that music was playing in the vault. I have seen the film many times since 1985, in cinemas and home video, and have never read the scene that way. And I have to say, the scene has been diminished in my eyes because of this over-explicitness. Until Groggy told me how he read the scene, I was happy to believe that the sene was about something else--that Noodles is having an epiphany of sorts, that he is contemplating the Ineffable, perhaps, or the Thingness in things, or whatever. But to find out that he's just checking out the sound system in the crypt is rather deflating. Without the new footage, it could still be a matter of interpretation. Groggy could read the scene his way, and I, while acknowledging the validity of the possibility of that reading, could have still read it my preferred way. But no more. Possibilities are closed off by the explicitness, thus impoverishing what had been a very rich scene.

Actually I'm glad that it has been clarified (although I am of course yet to see the restored scene). Without any real indication (apart from Noodles looking around) otherwise, it has always come across to me as an artificial and quite stilted use of background music. Happily this is now clearly not the case.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Noodles_SlowStir on June 10, 2012, 09:20:46 PM


I don't think Leone was trying to trick us into thinking the music in the mausoleum was non-diegetic; I think Leoen tried to make it clear that it was diegetic all along, with the bit with the music starting and stopping on what was some sort of sensor as De Niro opened and closing the door (and as he looks around I think he sees some sort of vent where it is "piped in.") And Leone couldn't know at the time of filming that he'd be forced to cut the scene with Louise Fletcher (explaining the origin of the tape) due to timing concerns. Therefore, I don't think Leone ever intended to make it ambiguous as to whether the music was no diegetic. Maybe for just a moment, yes, as it started as soon as Noodles opens the door; but as soon we realize it starts and stops as Noodles opens and closes the door, it's clear that it is diegetic, so I certainly don't think Leone intended it to be ambiguous enough that we wouldn't figure it out by the end of the scene, cuz he figured we'd see the scene with Louise Fletcher.



I agree.  There was a really great thread on the mausoleum and that amazing door.  We talked about how Noodles kept handling that door.  Sometime after that I rewatched the film and this scene clicked for me.  You're right that there is visual evidence within the scene that makes it very clear that the music is diegetic.  When Noodles looks above at various angles, he actually sees the speakers that are built in the columns in at least three different locations.

(http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/818/ndvd009g.jpg)

(http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/4049/ndvd008c.jpg)

(http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/2351/ndvd007l.jpg)

That being said, I really don't care for the Fletcher scene. I'm not a big Louise Fletcher fan and really don't find her acting in that sequence too impressive.  I like it the way it is.  It's very clear that Noodles has been summoned back and that he's thinking through everything right from his first contact with Moe.  The Fletcher scene takes away from the subtlety of Noodles' process of understanding and piecing everything together.  I think with the editing issues of the last three films, one of the things that resulted is that SL has quite a bit of things happening off camera.  I think it's a brilliant consequence. It makes his cinema more interesting and involves the viewer more and allows for different interpretation.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 10, 2012, 10:24:10 PM


That being said, I really don't care for the Fletcher scene. I'm not a big Louise Fletcher fan and really don't find her acting in that sequence too impressive.  I like it the way it is.  It's very clear that Noodles has been summoned back and that he's thinking through everything right from his first contact with Moe.  The Fletcher scene takes away from the subtlety of Noodles' process of understanding and piecing everything together.  I think with the editing issues of the last three films, one of the things that resulted is that SL has quite a bit of things happening off camera.  I think it's a brilliant consequence. It makes his cinema more interesting and involves the viewer more and allows for different interpretation.

Whether or not you like that restored scene in the cemetery, I think Louise Fletcher's acting in that scene is wonderful.

---

With the part in that scene involving the limo and the license plate (plus the later scene with it blowing up), this movie really seems more like a PI story; in the 229MV, while there of course is the whole element of mystery involving who sent Noodles the letters, I think it seems like much more of the internal, dream-like mystery. For some reason -- maybe it's just cuz I am not used to that scene -- I feel that maybe the limo and writing down the license plate makes it too much of a regular, literal PI story. There are other elements of the scene that I feel are important (eg. some of the stuff with Fletcher,  and the limo blowing up explaining why Noodles cares so much about the news story on the tv at Fat Moe's), but maybe that part with writing down the license plate is a bit overdoing it.

I'd still like to see every minute of deleted footage put back into the four and a half hour or so version of the movie that Leone originally wanted  :)


Title: Re: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: depp91 on June 11, 2012, 01:43:09 AM
Restoration process

(http://lostpic.net/images/5f64d1f06f6a0a8dfc19be4e08b6ca51.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/11924d177701283d56acfa5160a55c57.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/9c66e5745ef69738352f46d4f9bb41dd.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/7981cb1db3d7f4ba4fc466f8e8890f78.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/0af3b1c1913a9adaed221596318feade.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/92e82ba685d6fb17af09c5b7f864579e.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/b6409c9802f8d78d62ed87e9bc0db6b7.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/5d6ebd8df0b1e91ac51e34518ee6bd41.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/880200e95baab8377ffabc7d3f77b643.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/333368bd974f121f743f44dc93a03a97.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/1bad37b76605541bbd40bf0c005163a7.jpg)

The extended scenes doesn't look that bad after all, they highlighted new scenes color corected brightness contrast and all that, well all we have to wait for the blu-ray release and see.

Where did you find these pictures, Derbent5000?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on June 11, 2012, 09:37:08 AM
That being said, I really don't care for the Fletcher scene. I'm not a big Louise Fletcher fan and really don't find her acting in that sequence too impressive.  I like it the way it is.  It's very clear that Noodles has been summoned back and that he's thinking through everything right from his first contact with Moe.  The Fletcher scene takes away from the subtlety of Noodles' process of understanding and piecing everything together.  I think with the editing issues of the last three films, one of the things that resulted is that SL has quite a bit of things happening off camera.  I think it's a brilliant consequence. It makes his cinema more interesting and involves the viewer more and allows for different interpretation.
Another thing to consider: in 229, immediately after Noodles takes the key that's hanging on the crypt wall, there's a cut to him opening the locker in the train depot; this transition is now spoiled by the inserted material with Fletcher.


Title: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on June 11, 2012, 11:40:20 PM
premiere posters in europe

Rome Italy GUCCI

(http://lostpic.net/images/5ff44dd93d80b95ee1ce30c465b67dcd.jpg)

Paris France restore version premiere for the public

(http://lostpic.net/images/ee8de6e615b49763589b2be4682842e3.jpg)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 12, 2012, 12:03:12 AM
if they are releasing it to the public so soon after Cannes, I guess it is safe to assume that they will be showing the Cannes version, and they have not (yet) restored any more footage? (In the French interview that Mat Viola translated on this thread, Scorcese mentioned something about the possibility of restoring  20-25 minutes in addition to the 20-25 minutes that was already restored for Cannes, which would coincide with the 45-50 minutes of extra material that Leone wanted in the movie).


Title: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on June 12, 2012, 12:49:57 AM
if they are releasing it to the public so soon after Cannes, I guess it is safe to assume that they will be showing the Cannes version, and they have not (yet) restored any more footage? (In the French interview that Mat Viola translated on this thread, Scorcese mentioned something about the possibility of restoring  20-25 minutes in addition to the 20-25 minutes that was already restored for Cannes, which would coincide with the 45-50 minutes of extra material that Leone wanted in the movie).

As was previous anounced Sergio Leone children found 40 min of footage, 25 min were restored other scenes have technical issues according to the article, approx 15 min scenes still left, According to Martin Scorsese only copies were founded they could not found original negatives of the missing scenes according to the interview, I believe there is more scenes somewhere lying on the shelf and one day i hope they see the light


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 12, 2012, 12:56:08 AM
I hope they when they release it on dvd, they have all 45-50 minutes of missing footage dvd. But I am certainly not confident of it.



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 12, 2012, 01:01:48 AM
The initial articles that announced this restoration (in March 2011) said that the Leone children bought the Italian rights to the film. I hope that the the restored movie will actually be shown in American theaters and American dvd/blu ray, but am holding my breath until I actually see it announced.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cheem_2000 on June 12, 2012, 11:06:33 AM
Whether or not you like that restored scene in the cemetery, I think Louise Fletcher's acting in that scene is wonderful.

---

With the part in that scene involving the limo and the license plate (plus the later scene with it blowing up), this movie really seems more like a PI story; in the 229MV, while there of course is the whole element of mystery involving who sent Noodles the letters, I think it seems like much more of the internal, dream-like mystery. For some reason -- maybe it's just cuz I am not used to that scene -- I feel that maybe the limo and writing down the license plate makes it too much of a regular, literal PI story. There are other elements of the scene that I feel are important (eg. some of the stuff with Fletcher,  and the limo blowing up explaining why Noodles cares so much about the news story on the tv at Fat Moe's), but maybe that part with writing down the license plate is a bit overdoing it.

I'd still like to see every minute of deleted footage put back into the four and a half hour or so version of the movie that Leone originally wanted  :)
I love the way Leone shot Louise Fletcher. It seemed that she might have something to do with the whole mystery. It was done in a very subtle way. But her acting was a bit stilted.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on June 12, 2012, 04:36:51 PM
Paris France restore version premiere for the public

Wow, June 22nd is really soon.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on June 13, 2012, 09:39:28 AM
Any French member interested in going to cinema for this? I'm around Paris.


Title: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on June 24, 2012, 12:07:10 AM
ONCE UPON A TIME IN AMERICA 1984 Restored Extended Version

Italian premiere Piazza Maggiore Bologna

(http://www.cinetecadibologna.it/imageserver/locandina/files/festival/CinemaRitrovato/2012/CR12_Slide_En.jpg)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on June 24, 2012, 03:56:58 AM
thanks  O0


Title: Re: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: dave jenkins on June 24, 2012, 03:30:22 PM
You also why Friday, June 22, seven persons were given an appointment in quiet Piazza Maggiore in Bologna (and have left it the night at 2:30), Italian for the first (after the only other presentation at Festival Cannes ) the restoration of " Once Upon a Time in America ", an evening in anticipation of the festival The Cinema Rediscovered , the Film Library of Bologna promotes twenty-six years that kicks off Saturday, June 23, ending Saturday June 30, 2012.
Say what? ???


Title: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on June 25, 2012, 12:39:23 AM
Italian premiere

(http://lostpic.net/images/2d2eaa175cdce43cbd56d269824aa2ec.png)

(http://lostpic.net/images/0851659c7f14179a9d5d20786bf363d6.png)

(http://lostpic.net/images/baa8cbfd67c811577d1b82d5bc6a7243.png)

(http://lostpic.net/images/c2f0932c2fafc56893f7feca56b29626.png)

(http://lostpic.net/images/30d79b3e8bb641a06b17c946b3ce9e0c.png)

(http://lostpic.net/images/c38281ff00318dc1a2fd266925d89bf6.png)

(http://lostpic.net/images/f0babc108ec6303ed95bbc54eaf9ce6b.png)

(http://lostpic.net/images/6e8772d717b2e1120505b58b1301848f.png)

(http://lostpic.net/images/ce5ec9b6493c3c7cafbcf89a7f589226.png)

(http://lostpic.net/images/fe4998723398539bea2b361faed4ce1b.png)

(http://lostpic.net/images/a6b05aaac561a43bfcdae3ca8e39caf7.png)

poster

(http://www.hotel-portasanmamolo.it/upload/img4fbd0bfdc2214.jpg)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 25, 2012, 03:46:08 AM
oh wow, that is awesome!!! Thanks for sharing  O0 O0 O0

I hope we get some similar experience here in New York. But I am not holding my breath. (I'd be happy with just a normal theatrical release. But considering that all the articles said the Leone children purchased the Italian rights to the film, who knows if we'll even get a theatrical screening here in America).


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on June 25, 2012, 09:01:15 AM
Man, could people there actually read the subtitles? Some of those folks were sitting pretty far away.


Title: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on June 26, 2012, 03:39:28 PM
ONCE UPON A TIME IN AMERICA 1984 RESTORED EXTENDED VERSION Premiere At The Piazza Maggiore A Bologna 2012

C'ERA UNA VOLTA IN AMERICA 1984 Restaurato Piazza Maggiore A Bologna 2012

(http://lostpic.net/images/f18b1445f8b7bc6456ca1cfc94343ba3.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/f62696d56bc2084a0064ce2c95002842.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/5f907033aa00858a0eaacc3d0acb0a06.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/e5f6f2273f2b975e07fbb53d608dbf99.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/b31b14ae2dcf0144f91c650331c879a2.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/c7b3e2f2057d9d8b5789cd039cbfd1ea.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/aa62ba55465ccd7cc268f96f42a5dbb7.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/172e987a1167f8216cc54bd18e99e4bf.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/5de21900654d2daaed6081112d81e9a3.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/8ad6dc9d20ace2749fd6de96b468653e.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/18b2ea959da516753448d770c1fa1232.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/cee6650777f6f175e4b2f8387c151d5e.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/337ab4122731757f89f044ef47fe613a.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/b3429590c97cbf293db36fcdcd3eb8c7.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/4804b2cf1eba50867823d50469118bbd.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/ae588ee2c88dff3237b0e21b4165498e.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/f788d6e42b723bd4c3881b5b16c4e06d.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/064a2af391cde4d5ff6baf73a962a86a.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/f05cdfa005cf84324081f18a6e3c46b3.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/fa51545e52c469959013f86a2ddc5364.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/1bc9fb77e9f7d743d18d5468e19c2284.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/6fe243ec6ea49ba924f256c8e542eb54.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/39acfc10390de0624d585a36cbc904f4.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/1dd3b05511acfb9593042cec4e46911a.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/8d71c538eb6da90e0bffe1b22187a053.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/5290cf515be296e595e8f4737184d4c2.jpg)

Only disappointment is that it's not in the original aspect ratio 1.85:1 left and right sides are still crop i compare my DVD and HDTV versions to the early restored studio preparation version and the one premiere in italy, sure you can see the difference

Comparison between HDTV - DVD and early Restore Extended versions and Italy premiere

I analyze images measures the first and third image in 1.78:1 the second image in approx 1.93:1

May be it's to early to say i guess theatrical and video release can be different we'll see upon Blu-ray release later

(http://lostpic.net/images/6222e93f3510593d5086080ee1aa13d8.jpg)

(http://www.sportetstyle.fr/uploads/visuels/thumbnails/gal2-gucci.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/1fe7e5b4854b35ebea7f78f20ef8843a.jpg)


Title: Re: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 26, 2012, 10:55:08 PM
ONCE UPON A TIME IN AMERICA 1984 RESTORED EXTENDED VERSION Premiere At The Piazza Maggiore A Bologna 2012

C'ERA UNA VOLTA IN AMERICA 1984 Restaurato Piazza Maggiore A Bologna 2012



Only disappointment is that it's not in the original aspect ratio 1.85:1 left and right sides are still crop i compare my DVD and HDTV versions to the early restored studio preparation version and the one premiere in italy, sure you can see the difference

Comparison between HDTV - DVD and early Restore Extended versions and Italy premiere

I analyze images measures the first and third image in 1.78:1 the second image in approx 1.93:1

May be it's to early to say i guess theatrical and video release can be different we'll see upon Blu-ray release later


-- Thanks for sharing these images. as for the aspect ratio:  the dvd of the 229MV  takes up my full hdtv screen, with no black lines on top and bottom, which means that the aspect ratio is 1.78:1, or perhaps it is 1.85:1 but the tv masks a little of the image (according to the experts here, you can only be certain you are seeing the full dvd image if you watch on a computer).

-- How can you tell the aspect ratio from measuring images from the photos on the screen?

-- Although the movie's intended aspect ratio is 1.85:1, some folks here have said that it was actually filmed in 4:3 (but with the intent to crop the top and bottom, to 1.85:1). So if the image is any LESS WIDE (Is "narrower" the correct term here? ;)) than 1.85:1, I guess it's possible that we may be seeing more information on top and bottom, rather than seeing less on the sides.

-- Some people will argue that 1.93:1 or 1.78:1 are only a tiny bit different than 1.85. That's true, though I still don't like studio execs messing around with the image in any way; I want to see it as exactly as the director intended.

But I would not worry about it until the dvd is released  ;)



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on June 30, 2012, 03:35:00 AM
Another thing to consider: in the 229 version, immediately after Noodles takes the key that's hanging on the crypt wall, there's a cut to him opening the locker in the train depot; this transition is now spoiled by the inserted material with Fletcher.
 
The video clips look pre-restoration and it'll be interesting to see what the restorers have been able to do about the transitions for all the additional scenes.

Regarding the Fletcher scene, when Noodles hears somebody entering the mausoleum, he hurriedly puts the key in his pocket. I think the idea was that at the end of the scene Noodles writes down the car's license number on a slip of paper, puts this in his pocket and rediscovers the key.

There is a YouTube clip, presumably a screen cam at the Bologna screening, showing most of the chauffeur scene. At least with that scene there's no transition problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jrPtFJQL0U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jrPtFJQL0U)

  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: nat on June 30, 2012, 07:34:10 PM
So I don't know if this has been asked, but does anyone know when the new extended version of OUATIA will be available to us proletariate??!!


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on July 01, 2012, 06:01:43 AM
So I don't know if this has been asked, but does anyone know when the new extended version of OUATIA will be available to us proletariate??!!

Regarding a new Blu-ray or DVD some are guessing at 2013 but at this stage nobody knows for certain.

Announcements have been made that the extended version will be shown in Switzerland, in theaters in France in September and possibly Bangkok.


In the meantime available video clips relating to the additional scenes include:


Mausoleum/Fletcher scene - whole scene

Gang emerging from car in water looking for Noodles - extracts

Exploding car outside Bailey's mansion - extract

Noodles and chauffeur -  whole scene (?)

Noodles and Eve - extracts

Deborah at restaurant next to Railway Station - whole scene (?)

Deborah as Cleopatra  - whole scene

Bailey and Jimmy in Bailey's study - whole scene

 



Title: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on July 01, 2012, 09:25:33 PM
dvd and newly restored studio production preparation extended print

(http://lostpic.net/images/28ff56dff5edd3faa473ca6423bdf3d2.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/8ca8685bd779873b8113cd53f3c59f02.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/cc0ec0d519da5ce734a01cf3f97265e2.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/1adf5e6bcf1fc81cbd0658e8958729b3.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/e129316a1b6963aad9aad11988612421.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/4349ed8b60e8fa23c651c53f15f083cd.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/cba23fe076a0eeb60c9caf092dfbc0d8.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/bd9b1cfa7c7215be7f636eeddd214f2f.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/721a1eeb04013809f4659eacc4203bea.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/2f0e0d3171cdda51ef10c13caae00d33.jpg)

first image from dvd and the second newly restored extended print studio preparation without color corecttion and other effects, more information on all four sides newly extended print


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: moviesceleton on July 02, 2012, 03:16:03 AM
What's the source of those pics?

Are there final screen captures available from the new restoration? All these pics show us is the full 1:1.85 image, but nothing about the actual image quality.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on July 02, 2012, 04:14:54 AM
Thanks for the post and images, Derbent 500. I'm sure most of us would love to know a bit more and any more information you can supply would be greatly appreciated.

I noticed that in May 2012, prior to seeing the extended version at Cannes, Robert De Niro gave an 8 minute interview in English to TV5Monde.

He reveals that Martin Scorcese gave him (and probably others) a low quality DVD of the additional scenes.

In the interview he talks about

The Restoration
The Hoods (Arnon Milchan gave him a copy to read and he then realized that he had read the book many years earlier when he was a child.  He found the book very interesting and real with a ring of truth)
Working with Sergio Leone
Jewish gangsters


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xr8rjc_robert-de-niro-on-tv5monde-the-french-speaking-international-channel_fun (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xr8rjc_robert-de-niro-on-tv5monde-the-french-speaking-international-channel_fun)

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 02, 2012, 08:12:19 AM
Thanks for the post and images, Derbent 500. I'm sure most of us would love to know a bit more and any more information you can supply would be greatly appreciated.

I noticed that in May 2012, prior to seeing the extended version at Cannes, Robert De Niro gave an 8 minute interview in English to TV5Monde.

He reveals that Martin Scorcese gave him (and probably others) a low quality DVD of the additional scenes.

In the interview he talks about

The Restoration
The Hoods (Arnon Milchan gave him a copy to read and he then realized that he had read the book many years earlier when he was a child.  He found the book very interesting and real with a ring of truth)
Working with Sergio Leone
Jewish gangsters


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xr8rjc_robert-de-niro-on-tv5monde-the-french-speaking-international-channel_fun (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xr8rjc_robert-de-niro-on-tv5monde-the-french-speaking-international-channel_fun)

 


Thanks for the link! The questions are asked in French but De Niro responds in English!


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on July 02, 2012, 10:42:40 AM
I didn't understand the interviewer's question about Meyer Lansky but Robert De Niro seems to have ignored it anyway and instead talked about the book.



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on July 02, 2012, 06:55:05 PM
first image from dvd and the second newly restored extended print studio preparation without color corecttion and other effects, more information on all four sides newly extended print

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xr8rjc_robert-de-niro-on-tv5monde-the-french-speaking-international-channel_fun (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xr8rjc_robert-de-niro-on-tv5monde-the-french-speaking-international-channel_fun)

Thanks for posting  O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on July 03, 2012, 03:29:58 AM
For anyone who is interested and has not yet seen some of the additional scenes here are a couple of links before they are deleted:

Whole scenes (Fletcher/Cleopatra/Bailey and Jimmy):

http://tinyurl.com/bmr8hst (http://tinyurl.com/bmr8hst)


Extracts (Exploding car/Eve/Cleopatra/Deborah at restaurant etc):

http://spettacoli.tiscali.it/spettacoli/video/L-inedito-C-era-una-volta-in-America/530/117508/ (http://spettacoli.tiscali.it/spettacoli/video/L-inedito-C-era-una-volta-in-America/530/117508/)


There's quite a bit more to the Bailey and Jimmy scene than I first thought.  Bailey obviously has health and digestive problems - he drinks milk throughout the scene.  I used to think that Jimmy persuaded Bailey to sign the papers by promising that, after Bailey's death, his family would be able to keep some money.  However it's now made clear that additionally if Bailey doesn't sign the papers, his son would be murdered.

I also appreciate Robert De Niro's acting in the following scene better.  The bit with the pocket watch wasn't in the original script.  It may be my imagination but when Noodles sees the watch, a meaningful item from the first time the two met, and he realizes that his former friend has kept this memento for over 45 years, his expression softens from contempt to almost a smile, then to sympathy and affection, then to pity and then back to hardness and sarcasm.

WOW


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on July 03, 2012, 12:20:28 PM
There's quite a bit more to the Bailey and Jimmy scene than I first thought.  Bailey obviously has health and digestive problems - he drinks milk throughout the scene.  I used to think that Jimmy persuaded Bailey to sign the papers by promising that, after Bailey's death, his family would be able to keep some money.  However it's now made clear that additionally if Bailey doesn't sign the papers, his son would be murdered.
This is a scene like the one in the grotto cut from GBU--interesting to see, but unnecessary. Just as it isn't important to know where Tuco found his three friends--or even that they are in fact "friends", or at least acquaintances of long standing--it isn't really necessary to know the details of Bailey's deal with Jimmy--or even the fact that there IS a deal. The important matter is, as you rightly suggest, what occurs between Bailey and Noodles in the following scene.

I kind of like seeing Jimmy come back into the picture at that point, to see how, over the years, the ass-kicking shoe has moved to the other foot, but the scene plays like molasses in winter. Not even important exposition could justify such weak dramaturgy.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on July 03, 2012, 12:24:50 PM
But that the Treat Williams character just vanished was always one of the narrative mistakes of OuTA.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on July 03, 2012, 12:31:41 PM
Agreed. But solving one problem by creating another is a zero sum gain.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 03, 2012, 12:42:44 PM
Jimmy does not vanish in the 229MV! we see himon the tv in Fat Moe's during the newscast after Bailey's car was blown up. so we see  that he is still around and involved with the union-political shit in 1968.


For me, this restored scene I guess explains why a man as powerful as Bailey is surrendering and killing himself. With all the money he has, couldn't he just run away to some other country and live out his life in peace and quiet? But now that he knows that his son will die if he doesn't "cooperate," it makes sense why he has no other choice but to commit suicide. (To be sure, the question of why he isn't running away did not occur to me previously).

Also, there is an interesting point about anyone who gets involved in the dirty games of mobsters-unions-politicians: you can manipulate the system for whatever you can and make it rich, but once you step outta line, you are done. So many big mobsters make it big and wealthy, but they make a wrong move and then are whacked and done for. There is a line in this scene where Jimmy says something like "yeah I didn't make mistakes. You screwed up" a very loose paraphrase but that's the point. In this dirty game, you can "succeed" and have everything work out, until you screw up; once that happens, it's over in an instant. Everything you built up for years. Kind of like what happened to Noodles and the rest of the gang: they made it very successfully during Prohibition, but in that one fateful night, they were done for.

I am not saying this is an essential scene, but I don't think it's useless or hurts the movie in any way. Although I guess you could ask, if Bailey is first being informed now, during this party, that he has to die, then how do you explain the fact that he already gave Noodles a contract on himself? Nothing that Jimmy says at that meeting should surprise Bailey. Bailey already made the effort to find Noodles and bring him back to kill Bailey; then when Jimmy tells him on the night of the party that he has to die, he really isn't telling him anything that Bailety doesn't know or hasn't been planning for. So perhaps that scene doesn't make sense after all?



p.s. I still think that, as I've maintained all along, that the most important restored scenes are the ones with Eve. (The restoration includes the scenes where Noodles meets her, but not ALL the scenes between them before we see her on the beach in Florida. I hope that if they do restore more scenes, they include all the scenes with Eve). It's important that we see Noodles meeting her and being with her, so that she doesn't just show up on the beach out of nowhere, in love with Noodles



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on July 03, 2012, 12:59:13 PM
Jimmy does not vanish in the 229MV! we see himon the tv in Fat Moe's during the newscast after Bailey's car was blown up. so we see  that he is still around and involved with the union-political shit in 1968.




Yes, but that's not enough. in the 229 min version his role is either too big or too small.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 03, 2012, 01:06:46 PM
Yes, but that's not enough. in the 229 min version his role is either too big or too small.

we see that he is still around, that his original idealism for workers' rights has become the familiarly corrupt union-politics-mobster story, and that he is obviously involved with the Bailey scandal.

There are lots of narrative stuff that IMO is missing in the 229MV, but Jimmy is not one of them


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on July 03, 2012, 01:43:25 PM
(To be sure, the question of why he isn't running away did not occur to me previously).
Exactly. We don't need explanations for things we never wondered about.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on July 03, 2012, 01:50:14 PM
I am not saying this is an essential scene, but I don't think it's useless or hurts the movie in any way.
You are going to follow one scene of two guys talking in a room together with ANOTHER scene of two guys talking in a room together--and it's the same room! Man, am I glad that you aren't directing movies.

Any editor would tell you that one of those scenes has to go. It's easy to choose in this case--cut the one that doesn't play.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 03, 2012, 02:25:51 PM
You are going to follow one scene of two guys talking in a room together with ANOTHER scene of two guys talking in a room together--and it's the same room!

Yeah, that's never happened before in a movie ::)

I do think that the scene raises a different serious problem, which I described in the earlier post: Bailey's been planning his death for a while now; so there's no reason that Jimmy informing him that he's gotta go should be any revelation to him. He's obviously made the decision to kill himself, already, why NOW does he begin this argument with Jimmy, telling him that he brought him to his position, etc.

There are a couple of nice parallels (idk if that's the right word) though, between the two scenes: In the scene with Jimmy, Bailey turns on his 4 video screens; in the scene with Noodles, he shuts them off (symbolic I guess for the fact that he's done for). And while Jimmy walks out the main door of the study, Noodles in contrast walks out the side door, as always.


Furthermore, I was never really sure what the purpose was of showing Bailey's son in the movie -- except to tip off Noodles (and the audience, in case we didn't realize it yet) as to the identity of Bailey. Someone here once said that the purpose is to show Max "looking at" himself, which is one of the themes of the movie, people making sense of their past and Time. Also, showing his son leaving with his friends to the party  provides some justification for the partiers in the car at the end of the movie (which is meant to be a surreal scene anyway, and the summation of the themes about dreams, time, and cinema). But I guess that after seeing this scene, perhaps there is one other explanation: showing the son gives it a greater effect when Jimmy threatens his life, as opposed to if he had threatened some anonymous, faceless person.



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on July 03, 2012, 03:06:29 PM
You are going to follow one scene of two guys talking in a room together with ANOTHER scene of two guys talking in a room together--and it's the same room! Man, am I glad that you aren't directing movies.

Any editor would tell you that one of those scenes has to go. It's easy to choose in this case--cut the one that doesn't play.

I have to see the actual scene and how it works in the film's context before I can judge it. But so far it seems to me the only new scene which could improve the film.

Maybe the Eve scene, but not for Eve, only for Noodles.

Otherwise, frankly said, I would prefer a shorter, and not a longer version of OuTA.



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 03, 2012, 03:49:35 PM
I have to see the actual scene and how it works in the film's context before I can judge it. But so far it seems to me the only new scene which could improve the film.

Maybe the Eve scene, but not for Eve, only for Noodles.

Otherwise, frankly said, I would prefer a shorter, and not a longer version of OuTA.



as far as the Eve scenes go, they are vitally important, I don't know what you mean by "not for Eve, only for Noodles." Do you mean that it's important to show that he's recovered from his obsession with Deborah?

Being a gangster with lots of cash, Noodles can always pick up a dame. But the fact that he and Max are discussing what would be the greatest heist in the history of the world in front of her on the beach, and that she is very distraught on that fateful night when Noodles informs her he won't be coming home for a while, shows that there is a very close relationship between them. There is no way that the movie can get away with just showing her on the beach. (even though we were introduced to her in the opening scenes, those occur after the beach scenes. We have to be introduced to her).

I still haven't seen the scenes with Eve (except for brief moments in a montage), but my understanding is that the scenes that are restored show Noodles walking into a club, miserable after his night with Deborah; Eve is a dancer in the club and she walks over to Noodles; he is attracted to her tits and accepts her offer, on condition that he can call her "Deborah." And he pulls out a thousand dollar bill and gives it to her without looking at it; she says "I've done more for less." He asks her how big the bill was, she lies and says it was a hundred dollar bill. They go to the hotel room where he lives (probably the same room where Eve is killed in the opening scene of the movie), where he is all miserable over Deborah,  asking Even "Do you love me Deborah,"  and he falls asleep before they even do anything; Eve doesn't even take her clothes off. The next morning Noodles wakes up and sees a note from Eve, signed "Deborah." Then comes the scene where he goes to see Deborah at the train station as she is heading to Hollywood....


But there are actually more scenes with Eve that were cut but not restored: At this point, Eve was just supposed to be a one-night stand and that's it. But in scenes that have still not been restored, he meets her again by chance, and that is when they fall in love: Here is how that goes:

when Noodles leaves Jimmy's hospital room, he gets into the elevator, and his gaze falls on a pair of tits.... they are Eve's tits; he says hello to her, and that he'd recognize those tits anywhere; I think she was visiting the hospital for some medical tests. She asks him if he's been cured of his "Deborah-itis," he says yes! Then she admits to him that he'd given her a thousand dollar bill. They make up to meet again, and then Noodles gets out of the elevator, where we have that scene where Max catches up to him and says he wants to go with him to Florida. Then, we have another scene with Noodles and Eve at his hotel room. Noodles has been enchanted with her abundant cleavage. So when they meet in his hotel, he has bought her a gift of some very fancy, large bras. Eve opens her top, and reveals herself..... to be wearing falsies! He'd been crazy about her cleavage, but now realizes she's actually flat!

Suddenly, they hear someone at the door. Noodles pulls his gun out, the door opens, and in walk... Max and Carol, to pick them up to go to Florida!

--------


I am pleased that the scenes where Noodles first meets Eve were restored, but I wish that eventually, they restore all the scenes with Eve (along with the other 20-25 minutes that still haven't been restored). Scorcese mentioned in an interview that there are still these 20-25 minutes that have not yet been restored, and implied that they may eventually be, if they are able to find it or something like that (this interview with Scorcese was transcribed earlier in this thread by Mat Viola).




Title: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on July 03, 2012, 09:34:53 PM
video provided by Gucci and the Film Foundation narated by Martin Scorsese

http://www.gucci.com/us/worldofgucci/articles/once-upon-a-time-in-america-gucci-restoration (http://www.gucci.com/us/worldofgucci/articles/once-upon-a-time-in-america-gucci-restoration)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on July 04, 2012, 02:09:14 AM
video provided by Gucci and the Film Foundation narated by Martin Scorsese

http://www.gucci.com/us/worldofgucci/articles/once-upon-a-time-in-america-gucci-restoration (http://www.gucci.com/us/worldofgucci/articles/once-upon-a-time-in-america-gucci-restoration)
Thanks for the link Derbent 5000.  Hopefully all who are interested will be able to see the extended version in theaters or on disc soon.



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on July 04, 2012, 02:55:06 AM
The additional scenes between Noodles and Eve are fun scenes.  They show a different side to Noodles.  Some viewers may come away from the movie, thinking that Noodles is a loser and feeling sorry for him.  Including these scenes may partly address this and restore the balance between melancholy and the fun times these gangsters undoubtedly had.

The video clips look low quality and it'll be interesting to see just how well the additional scenes have been incorporated into the movie when the extended version airs in theaters or on disc.  There are several on-line reviews from people who saw the new version at Cannes and they seem positive.  One reviewer commented that the additional scenes had slightly more grain but then went on to say that people who have seen the movie several times will notice the new scenes simply because the old version is firmly entrenched in their memory.  It may take a while to get used to the new version.

At the Cineteca di Bologna web site, there are 3 images which are described as captures from frames from the restored scenes. These should represent more accurately the look of the finished movie.

Frame capture from scene 107 Noodles and the chauffeur:

(http://www.cinetecadibologna.it/files/stampa/maggio_2012/Seq_107_De_Niro_Milchan_02.jpg)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Shambaby on July 05, 2012, 11:04:20 AM
Bailey wants to be killed by Noodles at the end.  He knows he has to die so he would rather have Noodles do it.  First, he has guilt over how he treated Noodles and secondly, he figures Noodles would want to do it as revenge.  We find out that Noodles doesn't want to kill Bailey, (and Noodles never calls him Max, and says that he had a friend once, as if "Max", his friend died many years ago. )


Title: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on July 05, 2012, 11:53:57 AM
added scenes

(http://lostpic.net/images/d7ac5b5b443ebeeb2eae932d2fc31ffe.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/16d662762236b5cd16c1397a8240ebe0.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/f5b37b39592fc8027fc265fdf6bda6a9.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/5bffc36b82b59436bacb672335e4bf01.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/88a93c6fb6af0eee29087356519dc734.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/3fa9c1460c4017edb680955873555419.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/a174e871d045643f820ad4839705fe19.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/ec7e0a2f823c4b8926182ad4966cfbed.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/1ab7dad1efa1139931b4b10b0ac3b4dd.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/e442b680e91c131f9895ab11c5193822.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/746fbd9b980720f8dfa05921c0df4b8b.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/b269a08e3ed9f5da66311e0862f6b517.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/e1306af5bdf3964e257879eb5769bc9a.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/1b68eef0026c739895acf1784c82873a.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/edb47a938861fbf207b81936190c6a64.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/4c21e78e3cf43e1f5aff05878dde2e76.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/8747b0c666702f690a7564fc2088bb04.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/39217118484cbd452f2209a5638eab8d.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/85c8fe771b456cf82005be954014bf23.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/728fc225b96b46d5d9de205396001749.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/bf3155cfa4880ed3cf389a9324e5b297.jpg)

(http://lostpic.net/images/73be6f743b781000b2d355e233c5ff67.jpg)

According to the issue 359 Cahiers Du Cinema

Sergi Leone in interview there is another 50 minutes of scenes, Sergio Leone meant that 220 min PAL European runntime 3 hrs 40 plus 50 mins will be 270 mins or 220 mins plus 45 will be 265 mins that makes sense


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: MatViola on August 03, 2012, 01:05:26 PM
Oooops...needs more work:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2012/aug/03/sergio-leone-once-upon-time-america?newsfeed=true


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on August 03, 2012, 01:38:55 PM
Oooops...needs more work:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2012/aug/03/sergio-leone-once-upon-time-america?newsfeed=true

while I am of course waiting anxiously to be able to see the restored film, I am glad to hear that they are trying to get it right. I guess that they rushed it to make it in time for Cannes, and now figure they want to get it as best as can be for the theatrical and dvd release. Based on the videos we've seen so far, the quality of the restored scenes is markedly worse than that of the rest of the film; I hope that this new work will rectify that, as much as possible.

Also, as we've discussed there are an additional 20-25 minutes that Leone wanted in the film that were not included in the Cannes release and which Scorcese speculated may eventually be restored (I am not sure exactly why they didn't do it for the Cannes release, whether they couldn't find negatives in decent shape or whatever?) Perhaps it's wishful thinking, but I am hoping that this re-restoration will include more footage.

I am glad that this restoration is in good hands, being done by people like the Leone children and Scorcese, who really care about this movie. So, as difficult as the wait is, my opinion is, take the time to get it right, and when it ultimately is released, hopefully we'll be able to say, after nearly 3 decades, that we FINALLY have the REAL version of the film  :)




Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on August 04, 2012, 01:52:47 AM
Oooops...needs more work:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2012/aug/03/sergio-leone-once-upon-time-america?newsfeed=true

Thanks for the link MatViola.

In a way this is good news. It seems to confirm that further restoration will be completed in the autumn and the new version will be back on the film festival circuit during the winter of this year or spring of 2013.  Sounds good to me.  O0

TV5monde also did an interview with James Woods recently (in broken French):

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xsarld_james-woods-cannes-2012-mes-souvenirs-incroyables-avec-de-niro-et-leone_news (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xsarld_james-woods-cannes-2012-mes-souvenirs-incroyables-avec-de-niro-et-leone_news)
 
(Leone wanted teardrops during the watch scene)

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on August 04, 2012, 06:50:23 AM
Oooops...needs more work:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2012/aug/03/sergio-leone-once-upon-time-america?newsfeed=true

Any delays for further restoration are good delays

TV5monde also did an interview with James Woods recently (in broken French):

Good on Woods for doing his best in French.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: nat on August 04, 2012, 06:56:21 PM
Wow I live in Melbourne and didn't even know that it was going to be screened here, and now it's been pulled! I don't know whether to be disappointed that I could have missed this amazing opportunity or not now that's it's not showing anyway! :-\


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Snake-Eyes on September 19, 2012, 08:14:31 AM
If and when the complete, COMPLETE version of AMERICA ever makes it onto blu-ray, it'd be ideal if Sir Christopher Frayling were to contribute a commentary.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on September 19, 2012, 12:46:50 PM
Quote
While there has been no official announcement from the Leone estate, or Gucci and Martin Scorsese's Film Foundation who have been closely involved in the restoration, it is understood that after the Cannes screening it was agreed that more work, including on the audio track, would be beneficial for the newly inserted scenes.

That work is not expected to be completed until the autumn and Once Upon a Time in America in its latest guise will not be back on the film festival circuit until the winter of this year or spring of 2013.

OMG! Keep it from D&D!! If he finds out he might try to hurt himself!!!


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on October 10, 2012, 05:57:19 AM
For those who can understand French and Italian:


http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1382&t=30025815 (http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1382&t=30025815)


and


http://www.amazon.it/CEra-Una-Volta-America-Extended/dp/B009HX6PH8/ref=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1349869679&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.it/CEra-Una-Volta-America-Extended/dp/B009HX6PH8/ref=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1349869679&sr=1-1)


and


http://dvd.forumcommunity.net/?t=52568847 (http://dvd.forumcommunity.net/?t=52568847)


 
Hopefully the release date of 4 December 2012 won't be delayed again.  I've pre-ordered mine.  One of the posts at DVDforumcommunity says the running time of this version is 260 minutes and some of their members have emailed Andrea Leone films and received responses.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: PowerRR on October 10, 2012, 09:08:21 PM
WTF, HURRY UP USA!!!


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on October 10, 2012, 09:09:08 PM
Wow so a BD release is coming after all.

I had thought things had been put on hold until further remastering was completed on the scenes already added (and possibly some others scenes were added)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on October 11, 2012, 04:27:41 AM
Screenings of the new extended version were due to start at The Space Cinema in Italy on 18 October 2012 and a new Blu-ray released in November 2012.

Andrea Leone films have confirmed that these will be delayed and the new Blu-ray is now going to be released in Italy on 4 December 2012.

There is a 46 second trailer of this new version at Youtube and an option to view it in 1920 x 1080. I've not done any screen captures yet but the quality looks better than the existing Blu-ray.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Qn3mOKMCOzw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Qn3mOKMCOzw)


The PAL version of the unextended movie runs for 219 minutes.  


Assuming the new Italian version is in the PAL format, Amazon's running time of 244 minutes looks correct (219+25=244).


  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on October 11, 2012, 10:07:19 AM
Well, the Blu-ray won't be in PAL.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: PowerRR on October 11, 2012, 02:28:44 PM
Are you sure? I'm pretty sure Blu-Rays are still region coded...

And the new shot in the video of McGovern looks excellently restored. BONER BONER BONER


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on October 11, 2012, 03:01:13 PM
Blus are region coded (which has nothing to do with Pal), but they have a 24p/Sec frame-rate.



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on October 12, 2012, 04:08:09 AM
As stanton says region coded has nothing to do with PAL.  Most Warner Blu-rays are region free but since this is a release intended for the Italian market, regional coding may be an issue.

According to Blu-ray.com (http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=95245) there are some Blu-rays with 50Hz (PAL) content but in the future these may be a rarity.

AVForums.com (http://www.avforums.com/forums/blu-rays-dvds-download-services/739067-blu-ray-pal-v-ntsc.html) have discussed the differences between UK and US versions of Pan's Labyrinth and Face/Off.

If the Blu-ray matches the duration of the theatrical release, the running time will be about 260 minutes.

_ _ _


Noodles85 from the DVDEssential.it forum wrote to Andre Leone Films in September 2012 and received a response, roughly translated as follows:


Dear Daniel,

Thank you very much for your email which I have forwarded to the director's children.

One of the reasons that led us to buy back the rights to the film that Leone only wanted to direct and not co-produce as usual, was the mail from fans when the redubbed version of the film came out.

We carried out a complete audio and video restoration, re-inserting into the film the scenes which Leone had to cut to reduce the overall length of the film at the request of the producers. The quality of these scenes is not 'excellent' because unfortunately only the positives held by Leone's family survive but we thought it only fair to give fans the chance to see the film as originally made by Leone.

This version of the film (in English) was presented last May at the Cannes Film Festival.

It is due to come out in theaters on October 18th and is a version of 4 hours and 20 minutes and, in the Italian version, dubbing the original.

I also confirm that Warner will be distributing the DVD/Blu-ray versions for us in November. This will contain only the original audio versions.

I hope you will succeed in seeing the film on the big screen which for me was a great thrill.

Best Regards,

Gustavo van Peteghem
SERGIO LEONE PRODUCTIONS
ANDREA LEONE FILMS

gvp@andrealeonefilms.it
 
 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on October 12, 2012, 09:47:12 AM
Very Cool.  8)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 12, 2012, 02:34:58 PM
Here are two email contacts for the company; if anyone wants to email them in Italian and let us know what they have to say, specifiocally regarding an America dvd/blu ray release


rl@andrealeonefilms.it   

mfb@andrealeonefilms.it


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on October 13, 2012, 10:17:46 AM
Here are two email contacts for the company; if anyone wants to email them in Italian and let us know what they have to say, specifiocally regarding an America dvd/blu ray release

If it's region-free and with the original English audio, then it shouldn't make any difference except of course higher shipping costs (and perhaps the licensing/subtitling of extra features). However, a theatrical release in the US would be a different matter altogether  ^-^


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on October 13, 2012, 11:13:28 AM
DVDStore.it quote Region B and PAL encoding.  This may of course be incorrect but some caution may be prudent until definite details are released.

http://www.dvd-store.it/DVD/Blu-Ray/ID-42655/C-era-una-volta-in-America-Extended-Cut.aspx (http://www.dvd-store.it/DVD/Blu-Ray/ID-42655/C-era-una-volta-in-America-Extended-Cut.aspx)

Some delays may not be a bad thing. There is a lot of discussion on the Italian forums about fitting a movie of over 4 hours and extras onto a single BD.  Looks a bit rushed with minimal extras but on the positive side a very low price of just over 13 euros. I think Leone's children have done some interviews which may be shown with the movie in theaters and obviously with more time the extras could be greatly improved.  According to Martin Scorcese a further 20 to 25 minutes may be restored and this would bring the version nearer to the one that Leone originally made.  

The 30th  Anniversary occurs in 2014 so who knows?  Hopefully a version on 2 BDs with a commentary from Frayling, interviews with the Leone family, members of the cast and crew, Martin Scorcese and others, special features on making the movie and the restoration, the many locations around the world used for filming, the book on which the movie was based and biographical details and the true story of Harry "Noodles" Grey.

I will be the first in the queue for that version.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on October 13, 2012, 05:00:45 PM
This is on the board at MoMA for today:
Quote
Restored through funding by Gucci and The Film Foundation, and in partnership with Cineteca di Bologna at L’Immagine Ritrovata Laboratory, Andrea Leone Films, The Film Foundation, and Regency Enterprises. 229 min.
 
Saturday, October 13, 2012, 7:15 p.m., Theater 1, T1 (Introduced by Robert De Niro)

I'd looked earlier at the calendar and seen the title listed, but since they were reporting a running time of 229 I assumed they were screening the standard version. Now it appears it's the new extended cut, but the info comes too late to be of any use for me.

Sorry, Drink.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on October 13, 2012, 06:23:46 PM
This is on the board at MoMA for today:
I'd looked earlier at the calendar and seen the title listed, but since they were reporting a running time of 229 I assumed they were screening the standard version. Now it appears it's the new extended cut, but the info comes too late to be of any use for me.

Sorry, Drink.

If I'd seen your post a couple of hours ago I probably would have gone  :'(


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on October 13, 2012, 06:46:34 PM
If I'd seen my post a couple of hours ago, I would have too. Those bastards at MoMA have really cheesed me off.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 13, 2012, 08:11:42 PM
It does say 229 minutes. Why do you think they are showing the longer version? I mean, I know it says that it was restored and all, but does it really make sense that the USA premiere of a version of a movie that millions of people are anticipating is at MoMA??? That's strange.

It really is a bummer that MoMA only plays a movie for one or two days. A week or so would be better, so that everyone who wants to can go when their schedule allows  >:(


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on October 13, 2012, 08:29:31 PM
It does say 229 minutes. Why do you think they are showing the longer version? I mean, I know it says that it was restored and all, but does it really make sense that the USA premiere of a version of a movie that millions of people are anticipating is at MoMA??? That's strange.
Millions of people? Drink, now I KNOW you are on drugs.

I'm guessing the 229 is what some idiot at MoMA put down after looking up the film on some kind of list. The fact that the show is playing as part of MoMA's program of a film restorations, and that the source of the film is credited to Andrea Leone, AND that DeNiro was supposed to personally introduce it leads me to believe that what they were showing was NOT the 229 minute version.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 13, 2012, 08:33:50 PM
Millions of people? Drink, now I KNOW you are on drugs.

I'm guessing the 229 is what some idiot at MoMA put down after looking up the film on some kind of list. The fact that the show is playing as part of MoMA's program of a film restorations, and that the source of the film is credited to Andreas Leone, AND that DeNiro was supposed to personally introduce it leads me to believe that what they were showing was NOT the 229 minute version.

either way, it doesn't strike you as strange that the USA premiere of this new version would be at MoMA?

(And yes, I think the restoration is highly anticipated, though I never took a survey)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on October 13, 2012, 08:35:02 PM
The new Blu-ray will sell 3,000 units, tops (in the U.S.).


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: rexlic on October 14, 2012, 01:19:04 AM
Millions of people? Drink, now I KNOW you are on drugs.

I'm guessing the 229 is what some idiot at MoMA put down after looking up the film on some kind of list. The fact that the show is playing as part of MoMA's program of a film restorations, and that the source of the film is credited to Andrea Leone, AND that DeNiro was supposed to personally introduce it leads me to believe that what they were showing was NOT the 229 minute version.


It was the "European theatrical cut," or the film as it appeared on the two-DVD set.  DeNiro spoke briefly--of course--and did say that he worked a year on the picture, and that Sergio seemed to never want to stop making the movie, the implication being so great was his enthusiasm for it.  I will say this: I saw OUATIA at MOMA about five years ago, and this didn't seem to be in better shape than I remember that print being, although it's quite possible the quality of the DVD has obscured my sense of its quality on the big screen.  Maybe it was just the projector's illumination, but it seemed fairly dark at times.  MOMA's presentation of Scorsese's restoration of OUATITW a few years back was a noticeable upgrade over my previous theatre-going experiences of that film.  Almost forgot: Burt Young was in attendance, and stood up to good applause prior to DeNiro's appearance.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: rexlic on October 14, 2012, 01:23:32 AM
Also, I don't know if anyone put these up: three restored scenes which I presume will make up half of the reported extra 25 minutes.

www.youtube.com/results?search_query=leone+restored+scene&oq=leone+restored+scene&gs_l=youtube.3...658.9575.0.9981.22.21.1.0.0.0.739.2615.16j2j2j6-1.21.0...0.0...1ac.1.ErZ8gnWypTw


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on October 14, 2012, 07:06:15 AM
It was the "European theatrical cut," or the film as it appeared on the two-DVD set. 

Phew - good to know.

The new Blu-ray will sell 3,000 units, tops (in the U.S.).

Sounds like a Twilight Time release (they always limit theirs to 3000)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on October 15, 2012, 06:19:29 AM
That's why I suggested the number. 3,000 seems like the safe estimate for "classic films" (those more than 20 years old). Twilight Time (and I'm guessing others) don't take chances (they have to pay for the license up front). If OUATIA had never been released on Blu-ray before I'd guess higher, but I don't think there are that many people who are going to buy the blu-ray twice.

Let's say they actually sell twice as many units as I guess, or triple. That's still under 10,000. As far as potential viewers are concerned (home video plus special screenings plus festivals but not TV), maybe at most they could reach 40-50,000. Even granting 100,000, we are still nowhere near the "millions" mentioned.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on October 15, 2012, 06:29:46 AM

It was the "European theatrical cut," or the film as it appeared on the two-DVD set.  DeNiro spoke briefly--of course--and did say that he worked a year on the picture, and that Sergio seemed to never want to stop making the movie, the implication being so great was his enthusiasm for it.  I will say this: I saw OUATIA at MOMA about five years ago, and this didn't seem to be in better shape than I remember that print being, although it's quite possible the quality of the DVD has obscured my sense of its quality on the big screen.  Maybe it was just the projector's illumination, but it seemed fairly dark at times.  MOMA's presentation of Scorsese's restoration of OUATITW a few years back was a noticeable upgrade over my previous theatre-going experiences of that film.  Almost forgot: Burt Young was in attendance, and stood up to good applause prior to DeNiro's appearance.
OK. Glad I didn't go then. I still wish those MoMA guys would write less confusing copy, though.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 15, 2012, 03:45:52 PM
That's why I suggested the number. 3,000 seems like the safe estimate for "classic films" (those more than 20 years old). Twilight Time (and I'm guessing others) don't take chances (they have to pay for the license up front). If OUATIA had never been released on Blu-ray before I'd guess higher, but I don't think there are that many people who are going to buy the blu-ray twice.

Let's say they actually sell twice as many units as I guess, or triple. That's still under 10,000. As far as potential viewers are concerned (home video plus special screenings plus festivals but not TV), maybe at most they could reach 40-50,000. Even granting 100,000, we are still nowhere near the "millions" mentioned.

I was addressing the interest in seeing the restored version, not the number of people that will purchase the disc.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on October 15, 2012, 04:41:11 PM
One is the index of the other.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on October 20, 2012, 06:21:41 AM
 O0 O0 O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on October 20, 2012, 08:13:46 AM
... on a special channel "Sergio Leone HD"...

Wow an HD channel dedicated to nothing but Sergio Leone - sounds awesome.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on October 20, 2012, 10:29:50 AM
All directors should be so lucky!


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 20, 2012, 06:36:31 PM



Sky.it has given a date of Dec 7, 2012 for the new Blu-ray and DVD to be followed later by a box set of both new and old versions.


----

Several sites are reporting that the new version will premiere on Cubovision - TV Telecom Italy (also available on PCs, tablets and smartphones) on Oct 25 and on a special channel "Sergio Leone HD" on Oct 30, 2012.

  


RE: the dvd/blu ray, any word on whether it will only be Region 2, or if it'll be region-free?


RE: the movie being "available on PC's, tablets, and smartphones," any further info about that? I guess that would mean that we in America can get it too?

Also, has an official running time been listed for the version in theaters and/or the dvd/blu ray? Cuz Scorses mentioned something about possibly even more footage being restored (in addition to what was restored and shown at Cannes) and I am wondering if that is really going to happen?


Thanks for the info  O0



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on October 21, 2012, 03:18:00 AM
The running time of the new version in theaters is quoted as 260 minutes.

Ignoring PAL & NTSC, the unextended version runs for 229 minutes. Between 25 and 26 minutes have been added bringing the total to about 255 minutes.

Leone's children have recorded intro and outro interviews which will be shown before and after the movie. It's possible that these are the other 5 minutes.

New Blu-rays and DVDs are being issued in December and some retailers are simply copying the information between the 2 formats.  As other board members have pointed out, the Blu-ray may not be in PAL format.  It is logical however that the DVD will use PAL and be region locked.

The running time of the new version will probably be approximately 244 minutes (PAL 219+25) or 255 minutes (229+26).

To legally use PCs, tablets and smartphones to access Cubovison will no doubt require a subscription but there may be ways round this.

Anyone yet figured out the significance of the tractor and bucket behind the garbage truck?

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 21, 2012, 04:20:04 AM


Anyone yet figured out the significance of the tractor and bucket behind the garbage truck?

 

I believe here's the deal:

in a trestored scene, while Noodles is visiting the graves of his friends in the mausoleum, he speaks with the cemetery's director, played by Louise Fletcher, who explains to him that a "Mr. Aaronson" is the one that paid for this mausoleum, and sent a tape with the song (Cockeye's Tune) to play there. Then Noodles sees a limousine following him at the cemetery, and he writes down the limo's license plate.

Soon thereafter, in another deleted scene, Noodles is outside Bailey's estate, where he sees the same limo blow up -- the same car that's on the news report he watches on the tv at Fat Moe's (I guess the reason he was at the estate in the first place is either because by this time he's figured out that Secretary Bailey has something to do with this mystery of why he was brought back). And Noodles sees the garbage truck outside the mansion too -- the same garbage truck that he sees outside the mansion at the end of the movie, in which Bailey seemingly kills himself.

--

As we've discussed here, with these added scenes, the matter of Noodles' return takes on much more of a literal meaning, as a real mystery; in the 229MV, there was much less of this literal mystery.

---

Leone said that the garbage truck is a reference to Jimmy Hoffa, who disappeared mysteriously (and whose death has still never been solved), Frayling quoted Leone saying that a garbage truck was seen outside his house for 3 days before his disappearance. However, it is obvious that the James Conway O'Donnell (played by Treat Williams) is also inspired by Hoffa: after all, Bailey is a corrupt politician with union ties who is connected with a scandal over the misuse of union pension funds; but ODonnell is the actual corrupt head of the national union of truckers! So while I have seen Leone quotes discussing the Hoffa inspiration with Bailey but I've never seen any quotes where Leone explicitly mentions the Hoffa inspiration with O'Donnell, there is no doubt whatsoever that both their characters are actually partially inspired by Hoffa


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on October 21, 2012, 07:04:02 AM
Just my way of seeing things but the significance of the tractor and the bucket is to do with match cuts.

First a bit of conjecture.  Sergio Leone's method of filming upset several prominent people in America and he left the country voluntarily before he was forced to leave.   He may not have completed all the scenes he had planned to shoot there.

The gang go swimming in a car, some of the gang come to the surface but there is no sign of Noodles.  Originally this was to be followed by Noodles coming to the surface in a Turkish Baths in 1968, then to Turkish baths scenes in 1933, to Max driving through the streets of New York in 1933, arriving at the Baths and saving the life of Noodles who is about to be killed by gunmen.  Max is wounded and Noodles carries him to a car outside, passing by a garbage truck.  To be followed by the garbage truck and exploding car scene in 1968.

None of the Turkish Baths scenes were filmed and, in the unextended version of the movie, we cut from a car disappearing into water to a burnt out car being sprayed with foam.

I thought I'd seen a video clip of a crane or something nearby when the gang re-surface and I wondered if Leone had used this and the tractor for a match cut.


  
SPOILER:  Some may prefer not to know what is in the extended version or to see all the additional scenes in full. If so, please do not read further or click on the following link.  Four days ago La Stampa.it uploaded an item about the additional scenes and a video of over 20 minutes showing the additional scenes in full.  After the gang go swimming in a car and come to the surface, there is a nearby dredger with a large bucket containing waste and we cut to Noodles and a tractor with a bucket containing waste behind a garbage truck in 1968. Full scenes of the exploding car, the matching number plates and Noodles meeting Eve etc.


La Scampa.it video:   http://tinyurl.com/9xywmlx (http://tinyurl.com/9xywmlx)


 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 21, 2012, 09:17:17 AM


  
SPOILER:  Some may prefer not to know what is in the extended version or to see all the additional scenes in full. If so, please do not read further or click on the following link.  Four days ago La Stampa.it uploaded an item about the additional scenes and a video of over 20 minutes showing the additional scenes in full.  After the gang go swimming in a car and come to the surface, there is a nearby dredger with a large bucket containing waste and we cut to Noodles and a tractor with a bucket containing waste behind a garbage truck in 1968. Full scenes of the exploding car, the matching number plates and Noodles meeting Eve etc.


http://tinyurl.com/9xywmlx (http://tinyurl.com/9xywmlx)


 

I don't think you have to worry about spoiler alerts, if you read the pages on this thread since Cannes, we've discussed pretty extensively all the added scenes, I think everyone here knows what they are already  ;)

Of course, it would have been great if we could have seen the new version without knowing what was in it, but of course, knowing that i wasn't going to be able to view it for a while after it was shown at Cannes, there was no way I was going to have the self-control to avoid finding out what the added scenes were.

Long before the announcement of the restoration, there has been a script floating around of the movie which includes the added scenes, as well as a separate document with just those added scenes. Both docs are available here http://msb247.awardspace.com/ (click "Links & Downloads)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on October 22, 2012, 06:08:15 AM
James Woods looks quite scared in the video at La Stampa.it.  The dredger is very close to the gang and he seems fearful that the bucket of mud and dirt will be deposited on him. Possibly he thinks that the dredger has picked up the body of Noodles in its bucket. 

The dialog in the additional scenes sounds better than that in the original script.  In the book and the original shooting script, Eve is given a $1,000 note but in the movie this is changed to $500.

It seems that the new extended version still has some gaps.

In 1968, Noodles receives a letter advising him that his friends have been reinterred at Riverdale.  He visits the mausoleum, gets a key to a railway station locker and collects from the locker a suitcase containing dollars and a note "advance payment for your next job".

So far so good.

Chronologically we then move to Noodles and a garbage truck outside the mansion of somebody important in Long Island. We are never told how Noodles came to be there.  The gates of the mansion open and a car which was tailing Noodles at the mausoleum drives out and explodes.

We then cut to the scene of the exploding car on TV, the mention of Secretary Bailey and an interview with Jimmy O'Donnell, whom Noodles knows from the 1930s.

In the not yet restored footage we would have eventually seen Noodles visiting Carol at the Bailey Foundation Rest Home and Noodles explaining that somebody from the home had called him and said that Carol wanted to see him.  Carol denied this.  Back to the movie Noodles sees a photo of the innaugural festivies of the home in 1953 and in the center, Deborah, who he learns is the home's patron saint.

We then move to Deborah playing Cleopatra on stage, Noodles visiting in her dressing room, the party at the Long Island Mansion and the mysterious garbage truck and procession of classic cars scene.

Even in the original version with an additional 50 minutes or in the shooting script, Noodles' arrival outside Bailey's mansion for the first time is not explained.

  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 22, 2012, 09:26:28 AM

Even in the original version with an additional 50 minutes or in the shooting script, Noodles' arrival outside Bailey's mansion for the first time is not explained.

 

well at some point, he has received an invitatio to Bailey's party -- we never find out if that's in the original letter he received that caused him to come to New York (but he never mentions it to Fat Moe), or if some messenger delivers it to him while he's staying at Fat Moe's.

Either way, once we find out later he's received an invitation to a party there, it makes sense that he's be outside a few days before -- if you got an invite to a mysterious party on some fancy mansion, maybe you'd first wanna find out wt is going on. He knows that Bailey has something to do with his return, a fact made much clearer in this restored version. In the 229MV, we really never see any justification for why Noodles should be so intently watching this news story about the Bailey scandal. I guess you could say it's because he used to be involved in the early labor movement, so it still makes sense that Fat Moe would ask him "you know those guys?" But this point is brought out more clearly in the 229MV, that Noodles has a reason to be watching that news program, and to know that this Bailey scandal has something to do with the key to his return


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on October 23, 2012, 02:59:53 AM
...he's received an invitation to a party there, it makes sense that he's be outside a few days before...

I'm not convinced.

The shooting script reads:

SCENE 100 LONG ISLAND MANSION (1968) Exterior. Day.

i.e. no mention of Bailey

In the later scenes Bailey's name is mentioned.  E.g.:

SCENE 153 THE GARDEN OF SENATOR BAILEY'S HOUSE (1968) Exterior. Evening
 
SCENES 154 & 156 & 158 SENATOR BAILEY'S STUDY (1968) Interior. Evening.

The movie flits between 3 different time periods but, apart from the smile at the end, all the scenes within a time period are presented in the movie in chronological order.  The first time we learn of the invitation to the party is during the conversation between Noodles and Deborah backstage after her performance as Cleopatra.

Chronologically the scene of Noodles standing outside the gates of the Long Island mansion for the first time occurs shortly after he visits the mausoleum and collects the suitcase of dollars.  As Noodles mentions in his conversation with Carol, a lot of funny things have been happening to him recently and he is obviously keen to find out who sent the letter which prompted him to return to New York, who has financed the reinterment of his former friends to a fancy mausoleum, who is tailing him and who has left a suitcase of money for him.

He obviously writes down the car license plate number for a reason.  The next logical step for Noodles after collecting the suitcase of money would be to stash it somewhere safe and return to Fat Moes to investgate further and try to come up with answers for the things which have been happening to him recently.  Possibly he finds out the registered address of the owner of the vehicle from the car license plate number.

  


Title: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on November 19, 2012, 10:57:40 PM
Check out the Italian website Once Upon A Time In America Extended Version some intresting stuff in there, including

Video
Fotos
Biography
Articles
Cast
Crew
Research
Restoration

http://ceraunavoltainamerica.it/ (http://ceraunavoltainamerica.it/)

(http://www.repubblica.it/images/2012/10/17/161340763-8d078dcb-5ba2-45d8-92b2-eb9e8ec70d12.jpg)



Title: RECONSTRUCTED VERSION
Post by: Derbent 5000 on November 19, 2012, 11:42:00 PM
And this animated menu of the future italian Bluray includes some added scenes of cleopatra

http://vimeo.com/49382733 (http://vimeo.com/49382733)

(http://b.vimeocdn.com/ts/340/707/340707232_640.jpg)

Bluray and DVD Dec 4 in Italy

http://www.animangaplus.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1375&catid=34&Itemid=54 (http://www.animangaplus.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1375&catid=34&Itemid=54)

(http://www.dvd-store.it/data1/images/america.jpg)

http://www.dvd-store.it/DVD/Blu-Ray/ID-42655/C-era-una-volta-in-America-Edizione-Integrale.aspx (http://www.dvd-store.it/DVD/Blu-Ray/ID-42655/C-era-una-volta-in-America-Edizione-Integrale.aspx)

http://www.dvdland.it/nicom1/p_576566/blu_ray/c_era_una_volta_in_america_extended_cut_blu_ray.html (http://www.dvdland.it/nicom1/p_576566/blu_ray/c_era_una_volta_in_america_extended_cut_blu_ray.html)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-r-sC_WGtvV4/UIcTy6U_QiI/AAAAAAAAFcA/p37FZ-jN_b8/s1600/ceraunavoltainamerica2012.jpg)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: PowerRR on November 20, 2012, 09:12:11 AM

SPOILER:  Some may prefer not to know what is in the extended version or to see all the additional scenes in full. If so, please do not read further or click on the following link.  Four days ago La Stampa.it uploaded an item about the additional scenes and a video of over 20 minutes showing the additional scenes in full.  After the gang go swimming in a car and come to the surface, there is a nearby dredger with a large bucket containing waste and we cut to Noodles and a tractor with a bucket containing waste behind a garbage truck in 1968. Full scenes of the exploding car, the matching number plates and Noodles meeting Eve etc.


La Scampa.it video:   http://tinyurl.com/9xywmlx (http://tinyurl.com/9xywmlx)


 
What's up with the awful use of music in some of those scenes? Drowns out Max's cries for Noodles after driving off the dock, and it completely ruins the mood when Noodles meets Eve and asks to call her Deborah. It makes it feel like a playful scene when really it's hopeless and sorrowful.

Also, I'm still completely not cool with meeting Eve interjecting between the rape and the train station scene. Judging from the clips, I think it's going to really ruin the flow of my favorite sequence. I'm excited for this new restoration to come out, but for the most part I think I'll be remaining partial to the 226 min. cut I'm used to.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on November 21, 2012, 05:52:01 AM
What's up with the awful use of music in some of those scenes? Drowns out Max's cries for Noodles after driving off the dock, and it completely ruins the mood when Noodles meets Eve and asks to call her Deborah. It makes it feel like a playful scene when really it's hopeless and sorrowful.

Also, I'm still completely not cool with meeting Eve interjecting between the rape and the train station scene. Judging from the clips, I think it's going to really ruin the flow of my favorite sequence. I'm excited for this new restoration to come out, but for the most part I think I'll be remaining partial to the 226 min. cut I'm used to.

It does seem a bit odd not to hear Max's voice and the accompanying sounds of the water and the dredger but there isn't any dialogue for this scene in the script.

The meeting with Eve and the departure of Deborah have gone through quite a few changes.  In the book Noodles discovers that Deborah is planning to leave for Hollywood for a small dancing part in a musical a couple of days before their date at the restaurant.

He meets her at the theater after her matinee performance at about 5:30 pm and they head back from the restaurant fairly soon afterwards as she has an evening performance at 8.00 pm at the theater.  On the way back she reveals that she has loved a peaceful conservative businessman for a good many years and she hopes to marry him and stay in Hollywood.  After attacking her in the car, Noodles goes back to his hotel room, gets drunk and the following day watches Deborah holding hands with a man and getting on a train for Hollywood.

Noodles gets drunk again, ends up at a speakeasy on 52nd street, tells a hostess that he tried to rape a girl and goes outside.  There he meets a streetwalker whom he calls Deborah and has sex with in a nearby hotel.  He doesn't meet Eve until much later when she is auditioning for a dancing part in a show at the Eden.

In the movie I think it's intended that Noodles meets Deborah at the theater after her evening performance, they go to the restaurant, spend time on the beach, drive back, he rapes her and he gets out of the car in the early morning.

It's night when he meets Eve at speakeasy on 52nd street so presumably after his date with Deborah he wanders about all day getting drunk.  They go back to his hotel room, which is the same room as Eve is murdered in at the beginning of the movie, and he wakes up at 6:00 pm the following day.  He glances at his watch and we cut to a clock showing 7:55 above Deborah's table at the railway station restaurant.

Perhaps it's a bit like Cinema Paradiso and a liking for the first version seen.  I've got mixed feelings.  Will the quality of the new scenes be 8/10 and the restored old scenes 10/10 as reported by a recent viewer, will the match cuts, links and general flow of the movie be better or worse and will these additional scenes benefit or detract from it?  I'm looking forward to seeing the new version but I can't help feeling that I won't be completely satisfied until I see the further footage mentioned by Martin Scorcese added, bringing the movie nearer to Sergio Leone's 270 minute version.

  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 21, 2012, 11:46:11 AM
It does seem a bit odd not to hear Max's voice and the accompanying sounds of the water and the dredger but there isn't any dialogue for this scene in the script.

The meeting with Eve and the departure of Deborah have gone through quite a few changes.  In the book Noodles discovers that Deborah is planning to leave for Hollywood for a small dancing part in a musical a couple of days before their date at the restaurant.

He meets her at the theater after her matinee performance at about 5:30 pm and they head back from the restaurant fairly soon afterwards as she has an evening performance at 8.00 pm at the theater.  On the way back she reveals that she has loved a peaceful conservative businessman for a good many years and she hopes to marry him and stay in Hollywood.  After attacking her in the car, Noodles goes back to his hotel room, gets drunk and the following day watches Deborah holding hands with a man and getting on a train for Hollywood.

Noodles gets drunk again, ends up at a speakeasy on 52nd street, tells a hostess that he tried to rape a girl and goes outside.  There he meets a streetwalker whom he calls Deborah and has sex with in a nearby hotel.  He doesn't meet Eve until much later when she is auditioning for a dancing part in a show at the Eden.

In the movie I think it's intended that Noodles meets Deborah at the theater after her evening performance, they go to the restaurant, spend time on the beach, drive back, he rapes her and he gets out of the car in the early morning.

It's night when he meets Eve at speakeasy on 52nd street so presumably after his date with Deborah he wanders about all day getting drunk.  They go back to his hotel room, which is the same room as Eve is murdered in at the beginning of the movie, and he wakes up at 6:00 pm the following day.  He glances at his watch and we cut to a clock showing 7:55 above Deborah's table at the railway station restaurant.

Perhaps it's a bit like Cinema Paradiso and a liking for the first version seen.  I've got mixed feelings.  Will the quality of the new scenes be 8/10 and the restored old scenes 10/10 as reported by a recent viewer, will the match cuts, links and general flow of the movie be better or worse and will these additional scenes benefit or detract from it?  I'm looking forward to seeing the new version but I can't help feeling that I won't be completely satisfied until I see the further footage mentioned by Martin Scorcese added, bringing the movie nearer to Sergio Leone's 270 minute version.

  


As for the comparisons with the book, of course many things have gone through changes, I wouldn't concern myself with the book, there's very little that was copied directly from the book and kept as is.


As for the restored scenes, I really want to withhold judgment until I see the movie, but if the image quality of the new scenes is as bad as it looks on these online clips, then there is zero chance that anyone will ever consider this new version to be the definitive version. The only way it can become THE version of the movie is if it flows seamlessly, but with the terrible image quality in these new scenes, it's really jarring and sticks out, and it'll never make anyone forget the 229MV unless/until they can fix that.

I certainly agree that I really want them to restore the remaining scenes, which would bring the movie closer to 270-280 minutes, but I am not sure what the chances of that happening are, if they already have a dvd release planned for Italy in December of this new version. What are the chances that after releasin ga  dvd with these 20 minutes added in, they'll then release another dvd with an additional 20-25 minutes added in? I know Scorcese has mentioned the existence of these additional 20-25 minutes, but if they were really closing to getting it and restoring it, there is no way they would go ahead with the release of this dvd in December; rather, they would wait till all 40-50 minutes are restored before releasing the dvd (at least that's what would make sense to me!)

So while I want to see all 40-50 minutes as badly as anyone, I think we'll have to just enjoy these new 20 minutes, and not get our hopes up about getting the additional 20-25 minutes anytime soon. Just a guess. I hope I am wrong  ;)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on November 21, 2012, 09:37:11 PM
Perhaps it's a bit like Cinema Paradiso and a liking for the first version seen.

The difference with Cinema Paradiso is that the long version basically adds a third chapter on to the end. This long version of OUATIA will lengthen it with different scenes scattered throughout.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 01, 2012, 03:59:01 AM
There's a few discussions going on at the forums at Blu-ray.com, avmagazine.it and Dvdweb.it  Many are concerned at the high compression rate on the BD.

Dvdweb.it have provided some caps of the new version at 1920 x 1080, front and back cover and bitrate details.

TheNextOne (at dvdweb.it) is particulary critical but I'm looking forward to receiving my copy next month, so that I can judge for myself:

Dvdweb.it news - Nov 30 2012 (http://tinyurl.com/clq7bnp)

It's reported that the new BD is Region B Locked and the duration of the movie is 246 mins, so PAL/50HZ encoding may be an issue.


 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on December 01, 2012, 08:02:05 AM
Someone on the Blu-ray forum just posted the following:

Quote
It has already been reported that this new edition has a lot of compression problems (go figure, one disc only for a 4h20m movie), and you may be interested to learn that the PR guy of 'Andrea Leone Productions' (Andrea is one of Sergio's sons) is already apologising for that, whilst saying they will try and distribute a better version someday in the future.

It's reported that the new BD is Region B Locked and the duration of the movie is 246 mins, so PAL/50HZ encoding may be an issue.

I'm not too well-informed on these things, but I thought 50/60Hz was only an issue with 1080i content and not 1080p?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 02, 2012, 02:25:59 AM
Someone on the Blu-ray forum just posted the following:

It has already been reported that this new edition has a lot of compression problems (go figure, one disc only for a 4h20m movie), and you may be interested to learn that the PR guy of 'Andrea Leone Productions' (Andrea is one of Sergio's sons) is already apologising for that, whilst saying they will try and distribute a better version someday in the future.

Quote from: chris on Yesterday at 02:59:01 AM
It's reported that the new BD is Region B Locked and the duration of the movie is 246 mins, so PAL/50HZ encoding may be an issue.

I'm not too well-informed on these things, but I thought 50/60Hz was only an issue with 1080i content and not 1080p?

I'm not well-informed on these things either but if the 246 mins duration is correct, it's a possible explanation.  On an earlier news item at Dvdweb.it  there's a sticker saying the disc contains an extra 26 minutes:

Dvdweb.it News - Nov 29 2012 (http://tinyurl.com/cosn5v2)

I've seen a few email responses from the guy at Andrea Leone Films and in one he was getting frustrated at the number of emails he was receiving and saying he couldn't answer them all.  He was critical of those who were mailing him to complain about compression problems when none of them had seen the finished product.

There was a previous statement that at a future date there will be a further release. I can't remember the exact wording but I think it was hoped that this release would include both versions of the movie and possibly some extras.
 
 
 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 02, 2012, 02:43:41 AM

There was a previous statement that at a future date there will be a further release. I can't remember the exact wording but I think it was hoped that this release would include both versions of the movie and possibly some extras.
 
 

Should I get greedy and hope that the future release will contain the additional 20-25 minutes that was not restored at Cannes, but which was part of Leone's desired version (and which Scorcese referred to in at least one interview)?

For now, I guess I'll just hope that we in American can get to see the Cannes version sometime in the not too distant future  >:(


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on December 03, 2012, 06:07:47 PM
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w494/chris5522/ouatia/cera_volta_america_back.jpg)

I can't believe this has been classified as "Film per tutti" (film for everyone) on the back :o It's a little violent for that isn't it ???


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 06, 2012, 01:34:48 PM
I've just received the new extended version and have viewed it alongside WB's original 229 min Blu-ray.   :(

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 06, 2012, 03:36:11 PM
I've just received the new extended version and have viewed it alongside WB's original 229 min Blu-ray.   :(

 

did you get the new version on blu ray or dvd?


So the new scenes are of noticeably poorer quality than the rest of the movie? And what about the original 229 minutes -- do those look better/same/worse than on WB's blu ray?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on December 07, 2012, 04:27:44 PM
Deal killer.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 09, 2012, 05:08:47 AM


These were my thoughts when I first viewed both BDs side by side:

The picture quality of the new scenes is poor and they look similar to those on YouTube.  Surprisingly the picture quality of the other scenes is not as good as that in the original BD.  The brightness has been turned up, there's a lack of contrast, poor blacks, color tinge and pixellation and no meaningful detail in the shadows.  The movie looks flat to me and I'm not sure the defects are just down to compression.

The only positive thing I can say about it is that it's good to have a legal copy of the new scenes and see how they integrate into the rest of the movie. If the other 20 or so minutes mentioned by Martin Scorcese are ever released, I will still purchase a copy no matter how low the quality is.

  

Thanks for the info, chris.

This is very disappointing.

Previously, there was some discussion about how supposedly the studio that handled the restoration of the new scenes also did a restoration of the original 229 minutes, that it would be worthwhile to see just for that, etc.

Well now it's obvious that's a bunch of bullshit.

Of course, being a huge fan of Leone and OUATIA, I will still buy this blu ray disc (if/when it ever makes its way to America), and if the additional 20-25 minutes are released, then yeah, I'll buy that too. But this really fucking sucks. Very disappointing after having waited all this time.

I am still happy they did the restoration. Even if I won't be watching the new scenes all that often, I guess it'd good to know how those holes in the story are (supposed to be) filled in. (Especially the explanation of how Noodles met Eve, rather than having her just show up on the beach while Noodles and Max are discussing business).


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 09, 2012, 06:23:19 AM
Several people who have seen the new BD are saying it's not that bad so I had another look using different TVs and Blu-ray players.

On some TVs it looks quite good and there is better definition in some of the scenes. You can now clearly read the sign above the gates of the Boys Reformatory to which Noodles is taken.

The images can look grainy which some are saying is compression although this can be eliminated, if needed, by altering the TV settings.  I don't regret my purchase in the slightest and hopefully, if new versions are released, some of the criticisms such as compression will be addressed.

It's now available on Amazon.co.uk as well as Amazon.it and whilst the disc and packaging don't mention region locking, I don't know anyone who has yet tried to play the disc in a U.S. Blu-ray player.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 09, 2012, 07:08:53 AM
Several people who have seen the new BD are saying it's not that bad so I had another look using different TVs and Blu-ray players.

On some TVs it looks quite good and there is better definition in some of the scenes. You can now clearly read the sign above the gates of the Boys Reformatory to which Noodles is taken.

The images can look grainy which some are saying is compression although this can be eliminated, if needed, by altering the TV settings.  I don't regret my purchase in the slightest and hopefully, if new versions are released, some of the criticisms such as compression will be addressed.

It's now available on Amazon.co.uk as well as Amazon.it and whilst the disc and packaging don't mention region locking, I don't know anyone who has yet tried to play the disc in a U.S. Blu-ray player.

 




but don't blu ray discs have so much available memory (25GB for single layer, 50GB for a dual layer), that space/compression never be an issue, even with a movie that's approximately 250 minutes long? ie. if a blu ray disc has poor picture quality, that just means that whoever is handling the technical shit did a bad job with it, and not that the poor quality is due to compression cuz of lack of space or whatever (that's why movies on br are always only a single disc, no double disc is ever necessary, since each disc has so much memory).

I mean, if the issue really is the space/compression, couldn't they just put it on 2 discs? would that solve the problem? I don't know shit about technical stuff, but is this just plain and simple a bad motherfucking job by the Cinematagrophique Bologna or whatever the fuck is the name of the restoration company that was supposed to be the savior of OUATIA? (How about we star some petition for Criterion to get on the case -- aren't they known for doing the best restorations?)


Finally, just wondering how the sound is on the new br disc?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: MatViola on December 09, 2012, 07:14:38 AM
There were reports in August that the film had been pulled from circulation pending further restoration work. Was this additional restoration completed, ya know, before they released this Blu-Ray?

Mat


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 09, 2012, 10:46:13 AM
but don't blu ray discs have so much available memory (25GB for single layer, 50GB for a dual layer), that space/compression never be an issue, even with a movie that's approximately 250 minutes long? ie. if a blu ray disc has poor picture quality, that just means that whoever is handling the technical shit did a bad job with it, and not that the poor quality is due to compression cuz of lack of space or whatever (that's why movies on br are always only a single disc, no double disc is ever necessary, since each disc has so much memory).

I mean, if the issue really is the space/compression, couldn't they just put it on 2 discs? would that solve the problem? I don't know shit about technical stuff, but is this just plain and simple a bad motherfucking job by the Cinematagrophique Bologna or whatever the fuck is the name of the restoration company that was supposed to be the savior of OUATIA? (How about we star some petition for Criterion to get on the case -- aren't they known for doing the best restorations?)

Finally, just wondering how the sound is on the new br disc?

The BDs used are mostly 50GB and, regarding compression, it's reported that the bitrate of the new BD is 17 Mbps.  This compares with 14.96 Mbps for the 229 min version.  

Ben-Hur, for example, has a running time of 220 mins (3hours 40 min). It's split over 2 BDs (1 50GB BD and 1 25GB BD) and has a bitrate of 27.9 Mbps.

When the release of the new Blu-ray was announced in October 2012, many people wrote to Andrea Leone Films to complain that a 250 min movie could not be put on one BD without severe compression problems.  

Gustavo van Peteghem of Andrea Leone Films replied (rough translation):

"...The decision made by Warner Home Video to produce it on one disk only was the result of technical calculations and we were told that the space of a Blu-ray was enough to hold the entire film to a minimum compression..."

and

"...I can tell you that your comments will not be in vain and we will take note and take appropriate action consistent with the logic of distribution and market with regard to the timing..."

I take this as meaning that it was too late to do anything about the BD which was recently released but hopefully they will do something about it by the time the box set mentioned by Sky.it in October 2012 comes out.

Audio details are:

- Italian PCM Mono (first original dub)
- Italian DTS-Hd MA (first original dub)
- English DTS-Hd MA 5.1

Italian and English subtitles available

There are no extras

There were reports in August that the film had been pulled from circulation pending further restoration work. Was this additional restoration completed, ya know, before they released this Blu-Ray?

Mat

I thought the restoration work was concerned mostly with the Italian audio.  I've certainly not noticed any problems with the English audio.  The new scenes look exactly the same as the YouTube videos.

  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on December 09, 2012, 10:52:22 AM
Deal killer.

Totally.

There were reports in August that the film had been pulled from circulation pending further restoration work. Was this additional restoration completed, ya know, before they released this Blu-Ray?

It certainly doesn't look like it.

I thought the restoration work was concerned mostly with the Italian audio.

I didn't realize that. However, didn't Scorsese say they are planning on adding in a further 20 mins or so in any case?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 09, 2012, 11:33:36 AM
I thought the restoration work was concerned mostly with the Italian audio.  I've certainly not noticed any problems with the English audio.  The new scenes look exactly the same as the YouTube videos.

I didn't realize that. However, didn't Scorsese say they are planning on adding in a further 20 mins or so in any case?

Things seem to have gone quiet on the further 20 mins or so mentioned by Martin Scorcese but I'd like to see them whatever the quality.

The item in The Guardian in August 2012 stated that there has not been any official announcement from the Leone estate etc so it may have been a bit speculative:

"While there has been no official announcement from the Leone estate, or Gucci and Martin Scorsese's Film Foundation who have been closely involved in the restoration, it is understood that after the Cannes screening it was agreed that more work, including on the audio track, would be beneficial for the newly inserted scenes."

I expected the new scenes in the new BD to be slightly improved but they're not - just the same as the videos at YouTube and LaStampa.it etc.

Some-one on another board has said the encoding is 1080 24.  I don't know. A sticker is attached to the packaging claiming that the new BD contains an extra 26 minutes of previously unreleased material but the video at La Stampa.it, which contains all six blocks of the additional scenes in full, runs for just over 20 minutes only.

The duration of the movie is slightly longer than that quoted on the box - 250 mins 55 secs - but there are a couple of notices in Italian about the restored scenes at the beginning, lasting about 1 minute,  and the usual 30 second intermission.

  
 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 09, 2012, 01:58:56 PM
here are the two public email addresses for Andrea Leone Films, if anyone wants to ask them them about this:

rl@andrealeonefilms.it  

mfb@andrealeonefilms.it



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on December 09, 2012, 05:49:05 PM
The review at amazon.co.uk:

Quote
4.0 out of 5 stars
No great revelations in the new footage and a very disappointing Italian pressing, but a must for lovers of the film 9 Dec 2012
By Trevor Willsmer HALL OF FAME TOP 10 REVIEWER
Format:Blu-ray
After decades of rumours and false starts, not to mention the multiple cut American versions that existed over the years, the almost-complete extended version of Sergio Leone's Once Upon a Time in America finally reaches Blu-ray and DVD, albeit only in Italy at the moment. Thankfully the disc is English-friendly, with English soundtrack and subtitle options as well as Italian. Not so thankfully the now 250-minute film has been put on one extras-free single disc with very disappointing picture quality. While you expect to make allowances for the 22 minutes or so of restored footage - though perhaps not quite as many as are needed here - the same shouldn't be said of the rest of the film, but sadly the picture quality is largely substandard, lacking detail, not coping well with shadows and with very different colour grading to the 229-minute theatrical version that gives it a kind of metallic sepia tone that will be recognisable to any of the film' fans who saw the lavish large promotional brochure for the film that has become a collector's item. But for now, Warner's uncharacteristically substandard disc is the only game in town if you want to see the longest version of the film.

Strictly speaking this isn't quite a director's cut, and not just because it's been restored by Leone's children from his own cutting notes. The 229-minute version was his preferred version, but he planned to incorporate the deleted scenes into a longer version for European TV that got abandoned in the wake of the film's disastrous initial reception. There's nothing here that's essential to the story or which adds much to the film: this is more a version for people who love the film and want more. Louise Fletcher's restored scene at the cemetery is fairly redundant and not particularly well played (it also boasts quite atrocious picture quality), Elizabeth McGovern's Katherine Hepburnesque death scene from Antony and Cleopatra tends to slow the picture down and much of the rest is filling in gaps: in this version, Noodles is a witness to the car bomb that kills a senate hearing witness, while his relationship with Darlanne Fluegel is much more fleshed out (albeit awkwardly placed after the rape scene), underlining his sexual immaturity. There's a brief exchange with his chauffeur about the Nazis and Jews ("Jews don't have to be like Italians and look up to criminals") but it's clear that producer Arnon Milchan's performance led to that being cut from the film. The longest addition is a final scene with Treat Williams' Jimmy Hoffa-like union boss and James Woods that shows how the balance of power between the two has shifted, but while it's interesting it spells out too much of what's coming in the finale and is a bit redundant.

The greatest strengths remain those of the 229-minute version: the elegiac mood, the unhurried visual storytelling that makes such an impression in the opening of the film in particular, the ambitious structure shifting between three different time periods as it follows the workings of its anti-hero's memory, the details whose importance don't become apparent until a second viewing such as the bricked up door in the bar, Ennio Morricone's melancholy and yearning score, and the excellent performances from De Niro when he still cared about his work, James Woods and the underpraised child actors who do such an impressive job of embodying the actors who will play the gang in the main body of the film. It's what we've already seen that makes the film such a spellbinding and surprisingly rich and complex experience for those who are on its wavelength. Yet while there are no great revelations and no great transformations in this extended version, it's still a must for lovers of the film. It's just a shame that this version hasn't been mastered on home video with the kind of care and attention it deserves.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 09, 2012, 09:53:30 PM
Thanks for the review, dj.

Just wanna point out that the review is wrong when he says that the 229-minute version was Leone's originally preferred version and he only wanted the other footage for a longer TV version.

Leone originally intended a much longer version (possibly in 2 parts) but ultimately had to chop it to 229 minutes, which as we know is 45-50 minutes less than he really wanted. It MAY be true that once the 229 MV was released, Leone believed it was the better version; I believe he did make comments to that effect, but who knows if he meant it or was just trying to save face. It is also true that there was talk about a longer version for European TV which never materialized. However, it is incorrect to say that the version Leone intended all along was 229 minutes (unless every word Frayling wrote about this subject is dead wrong, a prospect I highly doubt especially since by the time of OUATIA, Frayling was already close with Leone and seems to have been involved, on the set, etc. It's pretty clear that the most through info in his book is on OUATIA. Unless this reviewer has some reliable source that completely contradicts every word Frayling wrote about this movie, he is wrong to say that Leone's originally intended version was 229 minutes).


Anyway, it is sad to see how badly this new blu ray disc sucks. If the poor quality is the reason for the delay of its release in America, then I am very happy about the delay; better get it right, even if it takes more time.


btw, was anyone here at any of the theatrical screenings of the new version in Europe? How did the original 229 minutes look at those screenings?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 10, 2012, 02:35:58 AM
Thanks for posting the review, dj.  Some good points in it.

In 1984 Sergio Leone certainly regretted having to cut 50 mins but by 1988 he said he preferred the 229 min version.  There was a quote from Raffaella some years ago in which she indicated that she preferred the 229 min version.  Andrea Leone seems to be in favor of Leone's original 270 min cut and whilst of course the new BD doesn't really deliver that, it is a step in that direction. Hopefully the journey will one day be completed and the movie given the treatment and recognition it deserves.

The review doesn't mention the grain in the images which is very apparent on some TVs.  There may be parallels with the U.S. and Italian versions of GBU and the differing colors and use of DNR.  I like the new BD more than I did when I first viewed it.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on December 10, 2012, 06:12:07 AM
In 1984 Sergio Leone certainly regretted having to cut 50 mins but by 1988 he said he preferred the 229 min version.  
The salient point. Because intentions change.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 10, 2012, 06:28:09 AM
The salient point. Because intentions change.

That could be the case. Or it could be that he was trying to save face/sell his movie.

Who knows.


After viewing the restored scenes, I'll say that there are some which I think are important and some which I don't.

I don't like the Debra as Cleopatra scene, although I think it's important to have something separating elderly Noodles's meeting with Carol and his later meeting with Deborah. The way it seems in the 229MV, he meets Debra immediately after he meets Carol, in the same building. So while I would get rid of that Cleopatra scene, I would prefer some other way of showing us passage of time/place, that the meeting at Bailey Foundation nursing home is not the same place as Deborah's dressing room 


I'm not sure I like  how the new version makes it more of a literal mystery with the car and the license plate, etc. Although in the 229MV, there really is no explanation for why the hell Noodles is so interested in this Bailey story. And I've discussed at length how I believe the scenes with Eve are very important.


I am unsure about the scene with elderly Bailey and Jimmy O'donnel. My biggest problem is with the placement of the scene: this scene is supposedly the moment when Max is informed he must commit suicide; yet the scene takes place just before Noodles meets Bailey -- long after Bailey has given Noodles the suitcase with the contract, and sent him the party invite, which would indicate that Bailey already knew long before that he had to commit suicide... And my biggest problem with that scene is Jimmy's explicit statement that he wants Bailey to kill himself; that could have been handled much more subtley than "I hope I heat a shot ring out..."

----


Anyway, I can't REALLY have a firm opinion on anything until I see the full 250 minute version straight, rather than seeing the scenes separately on YouTube.

let's go Warner Bros., move your ass on this


 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on December 10, 2012, 09:46:58 AM
That could be the case. Or it could be that he was trying to save face/sell his movie.

Who knows.
You don't, that's clear.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on December 10, 2012, 05:36:04 PM
Some-one on another board has said the encoding is 1080 24.

That's just the standard encoding for BDs. It doesn't speak to the quality of the print.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 12, 2012, 02:25:13 AM
There's  a detailed summary of the new BD and a brief comparison with the BD released last year at Movie Censorship:
   
http://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=898776 (http://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=898776)

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 12, 2012, 02:43:32 AM
Speaking of the quality of the print - I hope the picture quality issues with the old scenes are a result of compression. The masters and 4K restoration are said to be excellent and the compression can be fairly easily fixed in the next release by using 2 BDs.

  

Even if theoretically this can be fixed by issuing another release on 2 discs, what are the chances you think they'd actually do that, anytime soon?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 12, 2012, 02:55:33 AM
There's  a detailed summary of the new BD and a brief comparison with the BD released last year at Movie Censorship:
   
http://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=898776 (http://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=898776)

 

Thanks for this link.

so if the 4K restoration looks much better than the original BRD, but the new BRD fucks it up, that doesn't help us much, does it?


I have a dream that one day the studios in this nation will rise up and live out the true intentions of Leone......

and release a beautiful-looking BRD with the new footage... and that in the not too distant future, we'll actually get a 270 - minute version. But as of now, I don't believe shit until I actually have it  >:( >:( >:(


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 12, 2012, 07:42:47 AM
Even if theoretically this can be fixed by issuing another release on 2 discs, what are the chances you think they'd actually do that, anytime soon?

On another board some of the Italians are saying it may not be that long but it may just be wishful thinking.

A recent email from  Gustavo van Peteghem of Andrea Leone Films said:

"Ho ricevuto gia' da ieri molte e-mail di disappunto, da parte di appassionati come lei, per quanto riguarda il Blu Ray e come gia' risposto ad altri ne abbiamo preso assolutamente atto e le confermo che prenderemo i dovuti provvedimenti al più' presto.

Grazie di nuovo per la segnalazione e Cordiali Saluti.

Gustavo van Peteghem"

Roughly translated:

I've received many emails of disappointment from fans like you with regard to the Blu-ray and, as already responded to others, we acknowledge absolutely and confirm that we will take the necessary measures as soon as possible.

Thanks again for pointing this out and Best Regards.

Gustavo van Peteghem

The 4K restoration of the old scenes is complete so it should be a fairly simple matter.  Two months ago, when the Blu-ray was announced, a representative of Andrea Leone Films said they hoped to bring out a box set and Sky.it said:

"Più avanti verrà anche distribuito un cofanetto con entrambe le versioni."

Roughly translated:  Later a box set containing both versions will be released.

http://mag.sky.it/mag/cinema/2012/10/16/cera-una-volta-in-america-il-capolavoro-di-sergio-leone-torna-al-cinema.html (http://mag.sky.it/mag/cinema/2012/10/16/cera-una-volta-in-america-il-capolavoro-di-sergio-leone-torna-al-cinema.html)

We don't know for certain if the new BD is region locked and it's possible that a new box set may not be region locked.

Regarding the new scenes and especially the mausoleum scene, most people may be horrified at the suggestion but Scorcese's CGI friends have done a great job with Boardwalk Empire so if there is no practical alternative it's a route that could be explored.

  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 15, 2012, 06:53:41 AM
Some Italians say they are using the new BD as coasters.

Amazon.it has stated that the new BD is currently unavailable and they do not know when it will be available again.  Rather optimistically some are saying this may mean that the BD is being withdrawn and a new release is imminent.
 
 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: MatViola on December 15, 2012, 09:12:49 AM
So first the film was removed from theatrical circulation. Now the Blu-Ray is being removed from circulation. Just how far is Andrea Leone's head up his ass? Does he even bother, ya know, like, watching the film before releasing it? In a 1984 interview with American Film, Sergio said he had "a wretch of a son." Is this being borne out?

Mat


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on December 15, 2012, 02:28:24 PM
For him, SL's legacy is just a way to get D&D's money.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on December 15, 2012, 08:36:42 PM
For him, SL's legacy is just a way to get D&D's money.

 ;D


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 17, 2012, 03:36:10 AM
Another recent review of the new Blu-ray:

www.badtaste.it - English Translation (http://tinyurl.com/d9ql4bf)

www.badtaste.it -Original Italian Review (http://tinyurl.com/blo7uoe)

It's has some information on the picture quality and states that the disc is region free.

Some viewers are claiming that the picture quality is not that bad but on my normal 40" LCD TV with default video settings it is unwatchable.  Possibly on LED, Plasma, Projection and CRT TVs with different video settings it may look better.  A glossy or matte screen may make a difference.

I'm ignoring the brightness being turned up in the first scene, the lack of detail in the shadows, the faded look of the colors and the quality of new scenes.

Most of the movie looks very grainy.  When the movie is paused, it's revealed that the grainy effect is caused by the merging of artifacts and extraneous items.  It's still noticeable on smaller TVs, a 19" and a 22".

00:39:08 Part of the scene where Noodles is watching young Deborah dancing

On the positive side, there are hints that there may be more definition in the new version.  It just needs a proper transfer.  Noodles face and the grass in the left part of this comparison photo has slightly more detail than the corresponding items in the 229 min version on the right.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on December 17, 2012, 03:41:56 AM
Hm yes, on the other hand... is this real definition or just a basic "increase sharpness" filter that just recreates artifacts from blurred areas?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 17, 2012, 03:54:18 AM
The masters are said to be excellent and hopefully we'll get to see a much better version in the not too distant future.  If it is region free it's good news. I can't help wondering what WB's 229 min BD would look like with a better treatment.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 17, 2012, 04:27:16 AM
why would the "original" 229 minutes look worse than it does on the WB dvd and blu ray? nevermind the fact that supposedly, there was a major restoration of those 229 minutes as well -- why would they look worse than they did previously?  As for the possibility that it's the size of the file: is there really that much of a difference between a 229-minute file and one that is 250 minutes? Or is it possibly because the restoration caused the original 229 minutes to be a much larger file than it was on the WB disc?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 17, 2012, 04:44:43 AM
The compression rate on WB's 229 min BD is worse than the new BD.

There was some criticism when the 229 min BD was released and given a better treatment, it would of course look better. There's no definite news about versions outside Italy and a better Italian or American version would kill off WB's original BD.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 18, 2012, 03:45:09 AM
why would the "original" 229 minutes look worse than it does on the WB dvd and blu ray? nevermind the fact that supposedly, there was a major restoration of those 229 minutes as well -- why would they look worse than they did previously?  As for the possibility that it's the size of the file: is there really that much of a difference between a 229-minute file and one that is 250 minutes? Or is it possibly because the restoration caused the original 229 minutes to be a much larger file than it was on the WB disc?

The "original" scenes on the new BD were not taken from WB's DVD or BD, so they can look better or worse, there is no direct relationship. The restored "original" scenes came from the original 35mm camera negative, which is conserved in the vaults of Twentieth Century Fox.

http://www.gucci.com/us/worldofgucci/articles/once-upon-a-time-in-america-gucci-restoration (http://www.gucci.com/us/worldofgucci/articles/once-upon-a-time-in-america-gucci-restoration)

There are quite a few before and after shots already on this thread including:

http://www.faubourgsainthonoreguide.com/mode_/gucci-sheds-light-on-sergio-leone (http://www.faubourgsainthonoreguide.com/mode_/gucci-sheds-light-on-sergio-leone)

I've not seen the 4K restoration but it is said to be excellent. The problem seems to lie in the transfer process to the new BD. A better compression rate would help but there may be other factors - filters, effects, DNR etc which may need to be corrected.

Regarding copyright and rights - WB are often quoted - they are in fact held by Regency Enterprises which is a group of companies founded by Arnon Milchan.

A bit more about the restoration process from Davide Pozzi, director of L’Immagine Ritrovata laboratory:

The original 35mm camera negative, which had been carefully conserved in the vaults of Twentieth Century Fox, was scanned at a resolution of 4K at Warner Bros. Motion Picture Imaging (MPI). The scanned files were then worked on at 4K resolution in Cineteca di Bologna’s L’Immagine Ritrovata laboratory, where the complete frame-by-frame digital restoration was carried out.

The most demanding and delicate phase of the restoration was without doubt the color correction, working to recreate the sooty and smoky atmosphere of the ‘20s and ‘30s and the colder, more pallid atmosphere of the late ‘60s. As a reference in this phase, Martin Scorsese’s own positive copy - conserved at MoMA, New York - was fundamental, as were the contributions of numerous people who worked on the original production and lent their experiences and memories of working on Leone’s set to the restoration process.

The soundtrack for Once Upon a Time in America was restored in mono and remastered into 5.1 channel stereo at Chace Audio in Burbank, California in 2001, under the supervision of Regency Pictures and Elissa Loparco (Senior Vice President of Post-Production and Music), Schawn Belston (SVP, Library and Technical Services at Twentieth Century Fox), and Robert Heiber (CEO of Chace). To create this track, Chace engineers used a 35mm 3-track magnetic sound track containing the mixed composite, the mono music and the mono sound effects. Now, ten years later, the soundtrack’s definition, dynamic and spatialisation have been further improved by the use of the latest audio technologies at L’Immagine Ritrovata and optimised for digital theatrical release.

The main challenge faced was represented by the desire to re-insert the scenes cut by Sergio Leone. A team of film scholars worked for months researching all available information and testimonies. Ever aware of the delicacy of the intervention, these scenes, previously considered lost, were inserted in an extended version in the most harmonious way possible. Technically, the homogeneity of the unedited scenes was the biggest problem, as unfortunately the negatives for these scenes no longer exist.

The only materials available were discarded strips of working positives which had been badly preserved. Making this task even more difficult was the fact that the working positives had been printed without particular care, as originally they were part of the working copies which circulated between the assistant editors and sound editors as a work reference. The images in these sequences were ruined, not just by their poor state of preservation, but also through their use as working copies.

  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 18, 2012, 08:09:49 AM
yes, this info was all posted here previously; around the time of the Cannes festival. Does it implicate the issues with the blu ray?

Also, I don't think it was very clear whether the reason they only restored half of the cut 40-50 minutes is cuz that's all they could find in decent condition, or if it was a conscious decision for some other reason? In other words, is restoring the remaining 20-30 minutes a matter of finding copies of that footage which are in decent shape, or was there some other reason (eg. too expensive to do all of it at once or whatever)? I am just wondering if they are holding out on us here with those additional 20-30 minutes.


I want the missing scene where Noodles buys Eve the bras as a gift... only to learn that her big tits are actually falsies; she's flat as a fucking table. That occurs after the scene where Deborah stiffs him at the train station, but before they go to Florida. Ie. even after he first brougt Eve to his hotel room, he still was dreaming of Deborah; it's only after Deborah "shuts him out of her life" at the train station that he goes back to Eve and really falls in love with her. Which explains why they are so close from the Florida scene on.


Also, there is a scene where the young gang rats out Bugsy to the Prohibition cops for transporting the Capuano Bros. liquor; the cops smash the liquor, and Bugsy goes to jail, then we have the scene where the gang goes to the Capuana Bros. and says "we want to do what Bugsy did..." and show the salt invention. This isn't a huge deal, but without that scene, it doesn't make sense why the boys say " we want to do what Bugsy DID. With that scene, it's all explained why they se past tense: cuz Bugsy is in JAIL!" (And that further explains why Bugsy wants to kill them once he gets out).


There's also a scene where elderly Noodles shows the rabbi the letter about the cemetery, and the rabbi tells him that his 3 friends' graves have been accounted for, ie. all the stuff he later tells Fat Moe during their first meeting in 35 years. I suppose it's not all that important that we see the rabbi telling Noodles that, since Noodles repeats it all to Fat Moe anyway.

But what I REALLY wanna see, in addition to the further footage of Eve I mentioned previously, is the footage of elderly Noodles's meeting with Carol, where she further explains the circumstances surrounding that fateful night.

Also, I am not certain, but I think there may be more footage of young noodles's relationship with Deborah. If so, IMO that is hugely important. cuz in the 229MV, young Deborah shuts Noodles out of her life once she sees that he chooses the gangster's life (and gets beaten up by Bugsy). But, next thing you know, once he gets out of prison, Deborah is there to see him at fat Moe's and says she was counting the days till he got out and on their date at the fancy hotel, she says, 'Noodles, you are the only person i ever cared about..." Well, once Connely shut him out, why should McGovern care about him? However if it's true that there is a further scene of Connely making out with him, that shows that she takes him back, and that makes it more understandable why after he gets out of prison, we learn from McGovern that she was counting the days.


(Anyway, I am sure I wrote most or all of this shit way back somewhere in these 37 pages of this thread  ;))


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 19, 2012, 04:17:06 AM
A quick summary of the changes involving the new scenes during the last 15 years.

In Oreste De Fornari's 1997 book on Sergio Leone, he says: "A new edition of Once Upon A Time In America is being prepared which restores 31 minutes of footage that were sacrificed in the final version."
 
In 2000 Film4 released a documentary "Once Upon a Time: Sergio Leone". This included teasing images of 6 film reel cans labelled "Cemetery - Louise Fletcher", "McGovern - Shakespeare scene", "Eve out takes" and Arnon Milchan saying: "There's another half hour we're planning to put back and come with a full director's version. This time I know what to do."

At an interview with Raffaella Leone in 2006 she mentioned the 40 minutes of unpublished material they had found and a planned restoration with Sky.

When Andrea Leone acquired the rights from Arnon Milchan in mid 2011, he said:

"Mio padre aveva realizzato un montaggio di quattro ore e mezzo, che in Europa divennero tre ore e quaranta..."

My father made a version of four and a half hours (270 minutes), which was cut in Europe to three hours and forty (220 minutes).

At the same time Gian Luca Farinelli, director of Cineteca Bologna, commented:

"I 40 minuti di tagli, che fece lo stesso Leone, sono già in Cineteca in pellicola dalla fine di dicembre..."

The 40 minutes of cuts, that Leone made, have been with Cineteca since the end of December. (presumably December 2010)

In May 2012 it was announced that the extended version of the movie would be shown at Cannes and details of the six blocks of additional scenes with a total running time of 26 minutes were given.  However adding the running times together reveals a total of 22 mins 34 secs only.

This has been reduced further and the total running time for the additional scenes on the new Blu-ray is 20 mins 51 secs only.  The biggest change is the scene between Noodles and Arnon Milchan as the chauffeur where almost a minute has been cut.

According to an interview which Sergio Leone did in 1984 he cut 50 minutes from the movie including "une scène d'amour avec Deborah petite fille" - a scene of love with young Deborah.  Scott Tiler who played young Noodles has commented on the one occasion he kissed Jennifer Connelly which is just after Deborah recites her Song of Songs in the back room of Gellys:

"My beloved is white and ruddy.  His skin is as the most fine gold.  His cheeks are as a bed of spices - even though he hasn't washed since last December.  His eyes are as the eyes of doves.  His body is as bright ivory.  His legs are as pillars of marble - in pants so dirty they stand by themselves.  He is altogether lovable - but he'll always be a two-bit punk...so he'll never be my beloved.  What a shame."

It may be pure speculation but on other boards and blogs it has been suggested that this is the scene that Leone described as "une scène d'amour avec Deborah petite fille" which was originally intended as one of the deleted scenes, reducing the running time to 220 minutes, but was re-inserted prior to the release in theaters in Europe bringing the running time back up to 229 minutes.

There are obviously another 20 minutes or so of unreleased footage and it is difficult to imagine that they are in a worse state than the recently restored new scenes.  Perhaps the further scenes between Noodles and Eve or Noodles and Carol cannot be simply reinserted, perhaps they contradict other parts of the movie or cannot be made homogeneous.  Hopefully one day we will find out and get to see them.  In the meantime if, as Davide Pozzi says, the negatives for the new scenes no longer exist and the only materials available are discarded strips of working positives, was anything in those six film reel cans in the Film 4 documentary from 2000, were they just film props or has something happened?

  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 19, 2012, 04:34:27 AM


There are obviously another 20 minutes or so of unreleased footage and it is difficult to imagine that they are in a worse state than the recently restored new scenes.  Perhaps the further scenes between Noodles and Eve or Noodles and Carol cannot be simply reinserted, perhaps they contradict other parts of the movie or canot be made homogeneous.  Hopefully one day we will find out and get to see them.  In the meantime if, as Davide Pozzi says, the negatives for the new scenes no longer exist and the only materials available are discarded strips of working positives, was anything in those six film reel cans in the Film 4 documentary from 2000, were they just film props or has something happened?

  


The only thing I can thing of that contradicts other parts of the movie, is part of the scene with elderly Carol at The Bailey Foundation's nursing home. She tells Noodles how Eve waited for him to return, got depressed waiting in dark hotel room, downing pills, and eventually killed herself. Obviously, this is inconsistent with the opening scene in the movie, where Eve is killed by the Combination's hit men.

Was the opening scene added later (necessitating the removal of that part of the scene with elderly Carol), or is it intended that she doesn't know what she's talking about?
Of her comments to Noodles that are included in the 229MV, she is partly correct (Max put it in our heads to tip off the cops), but partially wrong (that Max planned his own suicide), although that's really the point, that Max tricked everyone into thinking he was dead. So, even though she is wrong about that point, that doesn't mean she is necessarily supposed to be an unreliable source.

Anyway, other than that footage of her describing a false account of Eve's death, none of the other deleted scenes conflict with the 229MV. (you can download the deleted scenes at A1's site http://msb247.awardspace.com/ just click "Links and Downloads" on the left side of the page, then click "Additional Scenes" on the bottom right of the page.

I believe that the shooting script that's available on that page includes these deleted scenes as well.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 19, 2012, 06:52:13 AM
The only thing I can think of that contradicts other parts of the movie, is part of the scene with elderly Carol at The Bailey Foundation's nursing home. She tells Noodles how Eve waited for him to return, got depressed waiting in dark hotel room, downing pills, and eventually killed herself. Obviously, this is inconsistent with the opening scene in the movie, where Eve is killed by the Combination's hit men.

Was the opening scene added later (necessitating the removal of that part of the scene with elderly Carol), or is it intended that she doesn't know what she's talking about?
Of her comments to Noodles that are included in the 229MV, she is partly correct (Max put it in our heads to tip off the cops), but partially wrong (that Max planned his own suicide), although that's really the point, that Max tricked everyone into thinking he was dead. So, even though she is wrong about that point, that doesn't mean she is necessarily supposed to be an unreliable source.

I can't remember Sergio Leone using narration/voice-overs much in his movies.  In the Carol at the Bailey Foundation scene her words "Max made fools of us Noodles..." is off camera and could have easily been transferred from another scene.  When we do see Carol, it's difficut to tell initially if her lips are in sync with the words spoken.  As you say Carol talking about how Eve committed suicide with pills wouldn't make sense if simply re-inserted.

I suppose it depends if Leone made the cuts and submitted the movie to the Ladd Co or if, after removing the deleted scenes, he irreversibly altered some of the original scenes.

Before the falsies scene, Noodles meets Eve in the hospital elevator so Max saying that he has a yen for the seashore himself, Noodles asking "Do you wanna go swimming?" etc and Joe Pesci's appearance at the hospital would have to be altered.

Beginning and end frames and obsolete themes and phrases may be a problem.  Suicide was originally a recurring theme and the movie was originally going from Noodles at the Bailey Foundation looking through a window at the darkness outside and saying "Suicide" followed by Deborah as Cleopatra re-enacting one of the most memorable and famous suicides in history.

I've not seen any evidence that scenes such as Bugsy's arrest or Noodles conversation with the Rabbi in 1968 were filmed but yes it would have been good to see them and some of the scenes would have added to the story and assisted interpretation and understanding.

(Anyway, I am sure I wrote most or all of this shit way back somewhere in these 37 pages of this thread  ;))  

Avmagazine.it are now on page 70 of a similar thread.

Some further news about the new Blu-ray.  It's back on sale at Amazon.it at a reduced price and can be ordered via Amazon.com and Amazon.co.uk.  Some reviewers are saying that it looks better on Plasma TVs. Glossy and matte screens may also make a difference.

http://www.movieplayer.it/homevideo/articoli/il-blu-ray-di-c-era-una-volta-in-america-extended-cut_10325/ (http://www.movieplayer.it/homevideo/articoli/il-blu-ray-di-c-era-una-volta-in-america-extended-cut_10325/)

http://www.movieplayer.it/homevideo - English translation (http://tinyurl.com/c67xcxu)

I'm not sure how this reviewer can give 3/10 for extras when there aren't any. Perhaps it's 6/10 for picture quality of the original scenes and 3/10 for the additional (extra) scenes.
  
 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on December 19, 2012, 07:01:51 AM
Some reviewers are saying that it looks better on Plasma TVs.
No doubt. But then, everything does.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 19, 2012, 07:08:07 AM
I can't remember Sergio Leone using narration/voice-overs much in his movies.  In the Carol at the Bailey Foundation scene her words "Max made fools of us Noodles..." is off camera and could have easily been transferred from another scene.  When we do see Carol, it's difficut to tell initially if her lips are in sync with the words spoken.  As you say Carol talking about how Eve committed suicide with pills wouldn't make sense if simply re-inserted.

I suppose it depends if Leone made the cuts and submitted the movie to the Ladd Co or if, after removing the deleted scenes, he irreversibly altered some of the original scenes.

Before the falsies scene, Noodles meets Eve in the hospital elevator so Max saying that he has a yen for the seashore himself, Noodles asking "Do you wanna go swimming?" etc and Joe Pesci's appearance at the hospital would have to be altered.

Beginning and end frames and obsolete themes and phrases may be a problem.  Suicide was originally a recurring theme and the movie was originally going from Noodles at the Bailey Foundation looking through a window at the darkness outside and saying "Suicide" followed by Deborah as Cleopatra re-enacting one of the most memorable and famous suicides in history.

I've not seen any evidence that scenes such as Bugsy's arrest or Noodles conversation with the Rabbi in 1968 were filmed but yes it would have been good to see them and some of the scenes would have added to the story and assisted interpretation and understanding.

 


Yes, you are correct; the dialogue in that scene with elderly Carol was taken from somewhere else (I think in Carol's own room in the nursing home). Obviously, it's essential to show that scene, cuz that's where Noodles finds out about Deborah, but since the dialogue was spoken in Carol's room in the nursing home, it was used a voice over, so you don't see a closeup of Carol speaking. Now that you mention it, yeah, it would therefore be really tough to re-insert the whole elderly Carol scene into the movie, cuz you'd have to change a scene from how it appeared in the 229MV. (Additionally, you have that dialogue about Eve committing suicide which doesn't fit), so I guess that scene was never going to make it into the new version.

Otherwise, I don't think any of the deleted scenes clash with anything in the movie


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 19, 2012, 07:09:13 AM
Some reviewers are saying that it looks better on Plasma TVs.

No doubt. But then, everything does.

It's a clever quip but some will say completely the opposite.  Their argument would be that matte screens and LCDs/LEDs may reproduce what's on the disc more faithfully and precisely.

I did some full size captures direct from the BD to see if they were any different then realized I was looking at them on my PC which has an LCD screen.  :-[

Most of my friends have moved to Glossy LED TVs so I'll try the BD on one of those.

   


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on December 19, 2012, 01:00:24 PM
It's a clever quip but some will say completely the opposite.  Their argument would be that matte screens and LCDs/LEDs may reproduce what's on the disc more faithfully and precisely.
   
What's on the discs are "1"s and "0"s. The only question of merit is whether that data, when manipulated for display, resembles "film" (or the original theatrical presentation). Plasma always seems more film-like to me. Others either disagree or don't really care if things resemble film (they may in fact prefer a more"digitized" video look). Others apparently also believe that there are good looking women in England. De gustibus non est disputandum.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 19, 2012, 02:01:57 PM
you know chris, after your previous post, I actually typed "remember, dj's opinion is always fact; no one other than him knows shit," but then decided not to post it, cuz doing so would be utterly redundant.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 19, 2012, 03:24:59 PM
Can anybody confirm whether that new blu ray disc is indeed region-free, despite officially being listed as region-B? I would buy it on Amazon if I knew that it would play in my region A blu ray player


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on December 20, 2012, 01:52:28 AM
Plasma versus LCD/LED

Before I bought me a Plasma I asked several people who are interested in this technical stuff much more than I am about the better technology, I even made a poll in a German forum. Result was that nearly everybody said that Plasma for several reasons reproduces a better, a more naturalistic picture.

Only one dealer opted for LCD. But when he asked me which TV in his shop was the best looking imo, the one which I chose was the only Plasma he had on sale. From that point on I was damn sure what to buy.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 20, 2012, 04:24:53 AM
What's on the discs are "1"s and "0"s. The only question of merit is whether that data, when manipulated for display, resembles "film" (or the original theatrical presentation). Plasma always seems more film-like to me. Others either disagree or don't really care if things resemble film (they may in fact prefer a more "digitized" video look).

Thanks for the info dj.

I've never owned a Plasma TV, my friends don't like them owing to reliability problems, Sony stopped making them several years ago and I wonder whether really a TV can be smart enough to differentiate between good data and bad data.  For me it doesn't seem prudent to buy a TV because it obscures parts of an image and technology seems to be going in a different direction.

Having said that you certainly get a lot of TV for your money with Plasma TVs and it's claimed that they are better at coping with fast action. I'll certainly be looking at both Plasmas and LEDs when I next purchase a TV and I'm tempted to try something different.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on December 20, 2012, 08:48:44 AM
I've never owned a Plasma TV, my friends don't like them owing to reliability problems, Sony stopped making them several years ago and I wonder whether really a TV can be smart enough to differentiate between good data and bad data.  For me it doesn't seem prudent to buy a TV because it obscures parts of an image and technology seems to be going in a different direction.
I'm not sure what reliability problems your friends are referring to. There used to be a problem with "burn-in", but my understanding is that the technology evolved and did away with the problem. Another issue was supposed to be that plasma isn't supposed to last as long as the other options (LCD/LED), but that might not even be true anymore either. Anyway, until we've actually run the different screens in real conditions through a number of years, we won't really know. If your ONLY concern is longevity, then probably an LED is the way to go. I'm willing to chance having a screen with a shorter lifetime if it delivers the kind of image I enjoy most. I've had my plasma more than 3 years now and it's never given me a lick of trouble and it still looks great. I'll let you know, though, if it suddenly craps out.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Cusser on December 20, 2012, 04:31:02 PM
Plasma TVs .... it's claimed that they are better at coping with fast action. 

Like the incessant telephone ringing near the beginning of Once Upon a Time in America ????


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 21, 2012, 02:41:18 AM
I'm not sure what reliability problems your friends are referring to. There used to be a problem with "burn-in", but my understanding is that the technology evolved and did away with the problem. Another issue was supposed to be that plasma isn't supposed to last as long as the other options (LCD/LED), but that might not even be true anymore either. Anyway, until we've actually run the different screens in real conditions through a number of years, we won't really know. If your ONLY concern is longevity, then probably an LED is the way to go. I'm willing to chance having a screen with a shorter lifetime if it delivers the kind of image I enjoy most. I've had my plasma more than 3 years now and it's never given me a lick of trouble and it still looks great. I'll let you know, though, if it suddenly craps out.

Thanks for the additional info dj.  I'll certainly include plasmas when I next look for a new TV.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 21, 2012, 05:34:26 AM
Thanks for the additional info dj.  I'll certainly include plasmas when I next look for a new TV.

 

just one article I read about plasma vs. LCD vs. LED
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2387377,00.asp

I am sure there are many other articles and many other opinions.

Note that plasma may cost 3 times as much on your electricity bill as LED


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on December 21, 2012, 10:55:25 AM
Note that plasma may cost 3 times as much on your electricity bill as LED
A philistine is one who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 21, 2012, 11:07:33 AM
just one article I read about plasma vs. LCD vs. LED
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2387377,00.asp

Thanks for the link drinkanddestroy.

The other consideration is glossy and matte screens.  Glossy screens can look great to a casual viewer but reflections can be a problem and the gloss may obscure some of the fine details in HD video.  I've watched a few films on glossy screens and found it a bit like looking at paintings under glass frames, I'm looking at the TV rather than the images on the TV if that makes sense.  It's different technology but I don't think screens in theaters are glossy.

Next week I'm visiting one of my friends who has a fairly new 46" TV with a glossy screen and I'll see what the new BD looks like on it.


 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on December 21, 2012, 11:52:09 PM
I've never owned a Plasma TV, my friends don't like them owing to reliability problems, Sony stopped making them several years ago and I wonder whether really a TV can be smart enough to differentiate between good data and bad data.  For me it doesn't seem prudent to buy a TV because it obscures parts of an image and technology seems to be going in a different direction.

Having said that you certainly get a lot of TV for your money with Plasma TVs and it's claimed that they are better at coping with fast action. I'll certainly be looking at both Plasmas and LEDs when I next purchase a TV and I'm tempted to try something different.

Plasma basically needs rebranding. It is seen as an older technology that was replaced by lighter, thinner, more energy efficient, cheaper LCD/LED TVs that were not as susceptible to image burn-in.

Of course most of these aren't really issues any more (and frankly who really cares if their TV is heavy?), yet LCD/LED technology has swallowed up the market leaving only LG, Samsung and Panasonic to serve an increasingly niche plasma market.

What was of course forgotten along the way was that LCD/LED TVs do not handle motion properly (boosting things to 100/120Hz or 200/240Hz only makes things worse for different reasons). Personally I never had a problem with blurry fast action, but I am a sucker for elegant camera movement and what would really get me was the jerkiness of a high-res image as the camera scanned across the scene.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 22, 2012, 03:50:45 AM
Can anybody confirm whether that new blu ray disc is indeed region-free, despite officially being listed as region-B? I would buy it on Amazon if I knew that it would play in my region A blu ray player

Although a review at  badtaste.it (http://tinyurl.com/d9ql4bf)  states the new BD is region free, a member of Blu-ray.com's forum thinks it is Region B locked.

He has tried the disc in a muti-region player and if he sets his player to Region A, the following message is displayed:

Translated: This disc cannot be played because the player is set to a different region code

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=6903629&postcount=95 (http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=6903629&postcount=95)
  
  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on December 24, 2012, 03:23:53 PM
A poster at hometheaterforum has confirmed what we've been hearing from other sources and has started another discussion on this topic. Here's his introductory post:
Quote
This quietly snuck out from Warners in Italy. The film is on one disc and people were already complaining about screen caps on one of the usual silly forums. It's always best to see the disc in motion, of course. And there's no reason a fine Blu-ray can't come for a four hour plus film on a BD 50 if there are no extras at all on the disc, which there aren't. But these people see bad compression from still frames. I don't. In any case, the disc came today.

 So, now I have seen the first forty-five minutes and I can speak having now actually seen the thing. And I'm here to tell you, compression is the least of it - spreading this transfer over five discs would not help it. Why? Because it is a complete botch job of the film called Once Upon a Time in America. Mr. Leone and Mr. Delli Colli would be fuming if they saw what their beautiful film has been turned into. I saw this film seven times in its short version and about seventeen times in its long version, and owned a beautiful LPP 35mm print of it. The photography is stunning. You would not know that from this new restoration. I have no idea what the new prints or DCP look like, I can only go by what's on this Blu-ray and it looks like crap.

 There is no contrast - just milk. The detail is blah. Worst of all (but I know it won't be bothersome to most because color problems rarely are) - the color. Awful. What a joke. Want to see the correct color and contrast, just pop in the old Warner Blu-ray and you'll see it perfectly because that's exactly what the prints looked like in terms of color and contrast (that original Blu-ray may not be perfect but side by side to this new one, it's better in every way). I find it hard to believe I'm saying this, but there is far more detail in the Warners Blu-ray than this sorry mess. You see it right from the first shot and it gets worse as you go. When it goes to Fat Moe being beaten to a pulp his blood is - brown/orange. Not vivid red - brown/orange. His hair, which is red - is brown. Then you go to the Chinese theater and gone are all the shadings and the beautiful reds and golds, rendered here lifeless and blah. Then you get to the scene in the rain where Noodles' buddies have been shot down. There's a fire truck. Brown/orange. Fire trucks are not brown/orange. Then you to to the scene in the station and see that beautiful, stunning Coney Island mural - hard to make that blah, and yet... Then Noodles comes back older and the mural is now the big apple of the Big Apple. What color is an apple? Well, in this instance it should be bright red - it's brown/orange and hardly bright. And so it goes. There are no blacks in this transfer - just milk. I put them side by side and there's no question that even if you don't like the bitrate of the original Blu-ray, if you want a Once Upon a Time in America that actually looks as it should, that's the only choice right now. I fear for watching the rest of this thing, but since none of the additional footage has appeared yet, I'll mush on just to see how all that works.

A complete failure.
If you want to follow the discussion you can do so here:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/t/326227/a-little-look-at-once-upon-a-time-in-america-the-restoration-on-blu-ray


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 24, 2012, 03:38:49 PM
Thanks for sharing this dj.

One poster on that forum says he thinks they made the color suck so bad so that the new scenes, which we know look awful, shouldn't look that bad in comparison  ;D ;D ;D

I am very happy that it hasn't been released in America yet. Maybe, just maybe, the issues will be fixed before it's released here.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on December 24, 2012, 05:10:37 PM
One poster on that forum says he thinks they made the color suck so bad so that the new scenes, which we know look awful, shouldn't look that bad in comparison  ;D ;D ;D
Yeah, I saw that. I have a sneaking suspicion he's right.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on December 25, 2012, 02:57:01 AM
And his opinion about the new footage also doesn't make me to wish the new footage in a hurry:


"Now that I've finished, I don't think there's one of the twenty minutes' worth of stuff that makes a bit of difference, really. It does make it longer, and you do get a little explanation of something here and there, but Leone's long cut worked wonderfully."

Of course other people will see this different, but on my last re-watch OUTA felt already overlong.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 25, 2012, 03:01:03 AM
And his opinion about the new footage also doesn't make me to wish the new footage in a hurry:


"Now that I've finished, I don't think there's one of the twenty minutes' worth of stuff that makes a bit of difference, really. It does make it longer, and you do get a little explanation of something here and there, but Leone's long cut worked wonderfully."

Of course other people will see this different, but on my last re-watch OUTA felt already overlong.

well that's just his opinion on the artistic value of the scenes (rather than the image quality), so I don't worry about that; that's just up to each individual viewer.

Personally -- though I haven't seen the new scenes placed into the movie, I've just seen them compiled together in one big 20 minute video -- I  think some of the scenes are useful and some aren't. But I'll have to reserve final judgment on that until I see the full movie (which, it now seems, may not be for a quite a while).


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: rexlic on December 25, 2012, 01:52:50 PM
A happy birthday to Shane MacGowan--nobody had 55 in the office pool, that's for sure--and a great time to spin that modern day Christmas carol, the Pogues' "Fairytale of New York."  About the song's origins, MacGowan recently told the Sun newspaper that “Our idea of New York was based on movies like Once Upon A Time In America, which we were obsessed with.  We borrowed a lot from the soundtrack of that film."  In fact, the Pogues had apparently never been to New York at that point.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9jbdgZidu8


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 26, 2012, 06:56:16 AM
One poster on that forum says he thinks they made the color suck so bad so that the new scenes, which we know look awful, shouldn't look that bad in comparison  ;D ;D ;D

It's a humorous but ridiculous suggestion. The "not new" scenes on the Blu-ray are slightly yellowish, in some of the dark scenes the brightness has been turned up but there's no meaningful detail in the shadows, there's sometimes a lack of contrast and poor blacks and, on some TVs, the movie has a grainy/speckly look.  The new scenes vary in picture quality from very poor (the mausoleum scene) to quite good (Cleopatra scene) and none have imperfections which are similar to the original scenes.  They stand out just as clearly as they would have done on a better transfer.

I watched some of the new Blu-ray again yesterday on a fairly new 46" Samsung LED TV.  If you pause the movie, artifacts and extraneous items are still clearly visible but it didn't look quite as grainy as on my 40" Sony LCD TV.  DartDVD (on various forums) was one of the first people to complain about the picture quality and compression problems after watching it on a 50" Panasonic Plasma TV.  Some of the people I was with, who are not familiar with the movie, thought the picture quality was quite good and, whilst the new scenes stand out owing to their poor picture quality, the movie was certainly watchable.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on December 27, 2012, 11:50:19 AM
About the song's origins, MacGowan recently told the Sun newspaper that “Our idea of New York was based on movies like Once Upon A Time In America, which we were obsessed with.  We borrowed a lot from the soundtrack of that film."

Interesting - I didn't know that!


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on January 05, 2013, 05:07:39 PM
Of course most of these aren't really issues any more (and frankly who really cares if their TV is heavy?), yet LCD/LED technology has swallowed up the market leaving only LG, Samsung and Panasonic to serve an increasingly niche plasma market.

Seems like soon we will be down to just two as Panasonic is pulling out:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=211857

Apparently they are going to put their efforts into developing OLED (Organic LED) which is markedly different from what we currently call LED.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on January 06, 2013, 10:21:51 AM
Seems like soon we will be down to just two as Panasonic is pulling out:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=211857

Apparently they are going to put their efforts into developing OLED (Organic LED) which is markedly different from what we currently call LED.
Interesting. Maybe my next screen (many years from now, hopefully) will be an OLED.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on January 08, 2013, 12:39:44 AM
This is becoming more and more off topic but... Sony just unveiled World's first 4K OLED TV.

http://mashable.com/2013/01/08/sony-4k-oled-tv/


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 08, 2013, 12:59:31 AM
This is becoming more and more off topic but... Sony just unveiled World's first 4K OLED TV.

http://mashable.com/2013/01/08/sony-4k-oled-tv/

if you are worried about staying on topic, you can continue the conversation in the thread dedicated to technical discussion, of tv's, blu ray players, etc. http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=11173.0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on January 08, 2013, 02:54:37 AM
if you are worried about staying on topic

Actually I'm not :)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on January 08, 2013, 03:02:18 AM
It's sort of on topic since some TVs seem to show the defects in the new Blu-ray more than others. In any event until further restoration work is done, or we get a new release or the legal issues are sorted out, I don't expect this thread to be very active.

Most of the American and Italian forums have stopped posting anything significant for the time being but there was some interesting stuff at:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/t/326227/a-little-look-at-once-upon-a-time-in-america-the-restoration-on-blu-ray (http://www.hometheaterforum.com/t/326227/a-little-look-at-once-upon-a-time-in-america-the-restoration-on-blu-ray)

To complete my collection I've ordered the new version on DVD.  The new scenes are not really Blu-ray quality, the other scenes have compression, color and contrast defects and this release of the movie may be more suited to the DVD format.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 08, 2013, 05:21:29 AM
even if the new blu ray image looks less bad on some players than on others, is it absolutely certain that -- on all players -- the image is far worse than the image on the 229MV?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on January 08, 2013, 07:10:54 AM
It's more to do with TVs rather than players. I've tried several different Blu-ray players and the results are more or less identical.

I think there are only minor differences when viewing the new BD on different types of TVs.

There are defects in both BDs (the 229 min BD looks a bit blurred in places, has a blue tint and cropped images) but for me the picture quality of the 229min BD is much better than the new BD and probably much closer to Leone's movie.

People who have seen the restored version in theaters in Italy seem to have mixed views. People who saw the restored version (minus the new scenes) at MoMA or the Film Forum don't seem to have been greatly impressed and I'm not sure if any of those noticed poor blacks, lack of contrast, or a yellowish/greenish tint.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on January 10, 2013, 01:57:02 PM
I've now watched the new extended DVD.  I think it's region 2 locked and PAL - 25 fps.  It comes on 2 discs with the intermission separating the 2 discs. It shares some of the characteristics of the new Blu-ray and probably indicates that the defects in the new Blu-ray are not caused solely by compression.

I didn't notice the grainy look as much but the colors are way off.  According to Sergio Leone and Tonino Delli Colli the colors of the 1968 scenes are supposed to look realistic, with RN being used to obtain deeper, more velvety blacks, much more luminous whites, added brilliance to everything and reinforced contrasts.

Sergio Leone: RN for sequences set in 1968. RN can help you obtain much deeper blacks and much more luminous whites.

Tonino Delli Colli: For 1968 no special effect. We used a little RN, which made the blacks more velvety, added brilliance to everything and reinforced the contrasts.

The colors of the new DVD are similar to the new BD.

In addition to compression, both have the following defects:

milky blacks

lack of contrast

yellowish/greenish tint


Disc 1 of the DVD released in 2003 ended awkwardly in the middle of an action sequence.  At the time it was claimed that if it had ended at the intermission it would have adversely affected picture quality.

Disc 1 of the new DVD ends at the intermission - enough said.

  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on January 21, 2013, 03:01:59 AM
Long before I saw any screen grabs, the Italians were complaining about the picture quality of the new Blu-ray and some said they were using the new BD as coasters.

The BD from 2011 is not perfect.  Images have been cropped, it has a blue tint and some parts look slightly blurred.

People who saw the movie at theaters in the 1980s think that the colors in the 2003 DVD are closest to the original and VHS tapes from 1989 seem to support this.

I realize that the restorers took advice from people originally involved with the movie but either something went terribly wrong with the transfer, time has colored those people's memories or they are fantasizing about how the movie should look. Sergio Leone and Tonino Delli Colli have both commented on the colors of the original movie and how the treatment of the movie differed from their Westerns.

The mausoleum is white, the white wall tires have white walls and the house is white. None of these should have a greenish tint. Blacks are milky and there are other defects which may be caused by compression.

I am a fan of the movie and applauded Andrea Leone's efforts to purchase the rights and restore a version which he thought was dear to his father's heart. However the restored version is 250 mins long whereas Sergio Leone's version was 270 mins and the restoration seems to have been influenced by people's memories, preferences, imagination and fantasies of what they think the movie should look like. Some seem to quite like the new version but others describe it as a redux version without the director's approval which is far removed from being a fair or true representation of any version of the movie made by Sergio Leone.

  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on February 10, 2013, 12:07:37 PM


I am a fan of the movie and applauded Andrea Leone's efforts to purchase the rights and restore a version which he thought was dear to his father's heart. However the restored version is 250 mins long whereas Sergio Leone's version was 270 mins and the restoration seems to have been influenced by people's memories, preferences, imagination and fantasies of what they think the movie should look like. Some seem to quite like the new version but others describe it as a redux version without the director's approval which is far removed from being a fair or true representation of any version of the movie made by Sergio Leone.

  

Nobody said this restored version is the version exactly as  Leone wanted it; they said it is closer to the version Leone wanted. It won't be the exact version he wanted until they restore the extra 20 minutes; Scorcese himself has said this. (I'm still not exactly sure why they didn't restore the extra scenes (maybe they haven't found any versions of those scenes that can be used?)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on February 11, 2013, 02:06:12 AM
Possibly the kindest way of commenting on the new Blu-ray is it's a temporary work-in-progress release, which gives fans who couldn't attend screenings at Cannes or an Italian theater the opportunity to see a version similar to those.  Several torrents of the new version are now available.

Hopefully a better quality 2 disc Blu-ray nearer to Leone's 270 min cut will be released in the not too distant future.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Senza on February 24, 2013, 10:50:54 PM
I might wait until they release this particular version of OUATIA, I recently downloaded it and thought the deleted scenes were great. I wonder what else was left out that might've been important to the story.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on February 24, 2013, 11:09:14 PM
I might wait until they release this particular version of OUATIA, I recently downloaded it and thought the deleted scenes were great. I wonder what else was left out that might've been important to the story.

if you have the patience/interest to wade through this thread, I mention all the scenes that Leone preferred to leave in but had to cut due to time constraints. They're listed in the chapter on OUATIA in STDWD


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Senza on February 25, 2013, 12:11:20 AM
I think I might wait for the book. Does the book go more in depth with the deleted scenes from his other movies?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on February 25, 2013, 03:38:32 AM
I think I might wait for the book. Does the book go more in depth with the deleted scenes from his other movies?

well other than OUATIA, the "deleted scenes" that exist from his other movies have been restored already. GBU, OUATITW, and DYS were cut for American release, and are currently restored; FOD and FAFDM were never cut except for very minor places. Yes, STDWD will discuss lots of those initial cuts, but virtually all, (with the exception of OUATIA), are now back in the movie, whatever language version you are watching. The differences between the various versions of the films right now are mostly things that basically only hardcore fans will notice and discuss here, but there's little that the casual fan would care all that much about.

Over time, you'll see, as you look through the threads, what I am talking about. For example, the opening scene of OUATITW -- more than 8 minutes of only natural sounds -- has a few extra shots in some European versions, making the scene a few more seconds longer, definitely not more than a minute.

In FAFDM, in the scene where Monco and Mortimer are beaten up by indio's men, some European versions have a few extra shots that don't appear in the American version.

In cases where there were major cuts upon release and scenes were later restored (eg. the 16 minutes of GBU) STDWD will often detail those scenes. In situations where it's just a few shots here or there within a scene that are different, STDWD doesn't bother mentioning it.

These individual threads exist discussing each cut scene in the appropriate movie but off the top of my head, I will give you a quick rundown, off the top of my head, to the best of my ability:

FOD: all versions are just about the same.

FAFDM: some European versions have a few extra shots with a tiny snatch of extra dialogue in the beating scene

GBU: After the Rome premiere, which was close to 3 hours, Leone chose to remove one scene (the "Cave" or "Grotto" scene) and otherwise released the film in Italy as is. For the American release print, United Artists cut it to 161 minutes, the British cut it to 148 minutes. On initial dvd release in the late 90's, the deleted scenes were available as a bonus feature, in Italian with English subtitles. For 2003 dvd release, all these scenes were put back into the film with English audio (Eastwood and Wallach recording the missing dialogue in 2003, a voice actor doing Van Cleef's, since he was dead), including the Grotto scene; every Leone fan I've spoken to believes that A) Grotto scene should never have been inserted back into the film itself, but included as a bonus feature, and B) that the MGM restorer John Kirk, popularly known as John Jerk, would do us all a favor if he the next man who gives it to him up the ass would be carrying some excruciatingly painful venereal disease.
One difference with the restored version: the scene of Tuco getting tortured is trimmed somewhat in the American version from the Italian; the official reason given by John Jerk is that the film was damaged too badly and couldn't be used on the extra couple of minutes of torture. it's included as a bonus feature. (I am not sure if those 2 minutes have been restored back into the film in the Italian version of the 2003 restoration, or whether they are also only a bonus feature. The 2--3 restoration also changed the gunshots, Jerk dubbed in new gunshots

OUATITW: a significant amount was cut from American initial release, mostly restored by now. But there are some leftover problems from the cutting that occurred on initial release. I suggest you read the Watchdog ARTICLE that Jordan Krug scanned, it's one of the top sticky threads in the OUATITW board, it has all the info you will need. (In a very brief nutshell: there are various versions of the opening scene; the American version today is shorter than the Italian and other Europena versions, by up to  a minute. Nothing changes substantively, the whole scene is natural sound; we just get a few extra shots of the gunmen, an extra minor bit of whimpering dialogue from the train master, etc.... There are a few extra shiots in the scene of the McBain massacre.... The American version has a scene of "Harmonica Rising" that possibly should be cut and was only re-inserted in there to fill in the gaps for other scenes that were once cut, but since restored.... The end music is screwed up (the film should end with main theme music, not the Cheyenne theme). All this will be revealed to you in the Watchdog article

DYS: significant amounts cut upon initial release, has all been put back now so far as I know. The Ameican theatrical version cut huge explanatory scenes; the Europena versions snipped small but crucial parts of the final flashback. But so far as I can tell, curently, the version available on dvd in America and Europe is pretty mych the same, and the full version. (The only thing that has been slightly trimmed is the Mao Tse-Tung quote in the opening; the full quote continues on to say, 'by which one class overthrows another).
The real issue with DYS is not the scenes, but the soundtrack: we have had extensive discussions here about the soundtrak being significantly fucked up and we need a serious audio restoration. But the scenes you see on the dvd are pretty much the same, full version everywhere.

OUATIA: as I mentioned, look for Frayling to list those in STDWD. (until the recent restoration undertaken by Scorcese) the difference here has nothing to do with regions. The 229-minute version was the longest one available anywhere; 45-50 minutes of extra footage existed that leone really preferred would have been in the movie. That is discussed in the earlier pages of the present thread.

if you want further discussion of these scenes/differences between versions, you will find existing threads in each of the boards. You can PM me if you have trouble finding something, I'll try to help you.

But i'd also say that unless and until you know all the movies backward and forward, inside and out, don't worry yet about the differences between versions. Most of it is nerdy stuff and not stuff that significantly affects the film. Enjoy the movies, enjoy the book, once you become a nerd you can worry about getting the dvd of every region and knwing every difference in version. (Believe me, being a nerd is a miserable life, you will never be happy, knowing that SOMEWHERE OUT THERE, another scene exists with 2 extra seconds of some shot! Ignorance is bliss. enjoy the movies, enjoy reading about 'em, don't be overly concerned yet about minor differences in versions  O0

if you do wanna discuss specific changes/other versions of movies, please respond in the appropriate threads of those movies, if possible  O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on February 25, 2013, 06:20:13 AM


FAFDM: some Europena versions have a few extra shots with a tiny nstahc of dialogue in the beating scene

 ... and 3 more short cuts

But all in all nothing substantial.

Quote

One difference with the restored version: the scene of Tuco getting tortured is trimmed somewhat in the American version from the Italian; the official reason given by John Jerk is that the film was damaged too badly and coukdn't be used on the extra couple of minutes of torture. it's included as a bonus feature. 9I am not sure if those 2 minutres have been restiored back into the film in the Italian version of the 2003 restoration, or whether they are also only a bonus feature. 

The bonus beating scene was never part of any released version. Probably in a pre-release version, probably not.
The difference between the Italian and the MGM beating scene are a few alternative shots towards the end of that scene. The runtime is probalby the same, and I just don't remember if the score was also slightly different.

Quote
There are a few extra shiots in the scene of the McBain massacre....

No extra shots, the Paramount only cuts half a second too early in one shot.

The main difference between OUTIA and the westerns is that for OUTA Leoen made the cuts on the released version ,and we don't know if he ever had reinserted these material, but in his SWs the cuts were made by the distributors against Leone's will.

Not sure about that additional flashback scene of DYS though. Maybe that's another case where Leone took it out. I like it, but it was restored in the 90s, and I'm not sure if it was ever part of a released version before.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on February 25, 2013, 06:47:17 AM


The main difference between OUTIA and the westerns is that for OUTA Leoen made the cuts on the released version ,and we don't know if he ever had reinserted these material, but in his SWs the cuts were made by the distributors against Leone's will.

Not sure about that additional flashback scene of DYS though. Maybe that's another case where Leone took it out. I like it, but it was restored in the 90s, and I'm not sure if it was ever part of a released version before.


according to Frayling, the final extended flashback scene in DYS was trimmed by the exhibiitors or distributors. They feared that as the final music swells with that extended flashback, viewers would assume the movie was ending, that it was the final scene, and would walk out before it was over. To me that seems like a silly reason to cut a scene: who the fuck walks out before the credits roll?


as for your comment that the cuts to Leone's SW's "were made by the distributors against Leone's will": I'll just say one thing: as we know they only dubbed the English language version for 161 minutes; if Leone was involved in the English-language dubbing process, I assume that means he knew they were not dubbing certain scenes, so he'd have known it would only be 161 minutes. Of course, the fact that he knew doesn't necessarily mean he was happy with it, but it would seem it didn't come as a shock. On the other hand, even OUATITW and DYS, which also had significant cuts in America, there was no problem of missing dubing when they restored it later on; that means that unlike with GBU, they dubbed all the scenes right away into Englis, even though some of them weren't shown in theaters till years later. Why did they dub everything in OUATITW and DYS, but not with GBU? maybe cuz it was a different distributor, and they had different ideas about dubing the whole movie vs. dubbing only the scenes you are gonna exhibit. Or, maybe they decided to cut it at the last minute, after dubbing was completed.

What i guess I am trying to say that the fact that for GBU they only dubbed the scenes they were gonna show, while for OUATITW and DYS they dubbed everything, perhaps that means that cutting the GBU scenes was planned all along whereas for DYS and OUATITW they decided to cut it late in the game?

the difference would be, maybe the cutting for GBU was done with leone's knowledge all along. In other words, maybe for GBU, they told Leone, "we can only show 160 minutes, so you choose the 15 or so minutes to cut," whereas with DYS and OUATITW, the distributors did whatever they wanted without consulting Leone. if this theory is correct, then perhaps we can consider the shorter version of GBU to be more of a "leone-approved" version than the shorter versions of DYS and OUATITW?

(btw, I remember now in the Movie Watchdog article Jordan Krug posted RE: the various versions of OUATITW, that it said that early screenings  of OYATITW in Chicago did have the full version, it was cut only on wide release. So that would seem that for OUATITW, the decision to shorten it was made very late in the game, and perhaps that means it was more likely done  without Leone's knowledge. But for DYS, we don't know when the decision was made, but the fact is that they dubbed all the scenes including the ones they removed, as opposed to with GBU. [and both GBU and DYS were distributed by United Artists]. Does that mean the DYS shortening was done later in the game and therefore without Leone's knowledge/consent?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Senza on February 25, 2013, 05:47:11 PM
All this info!
If there ever was a STWTD online, I think this site would be it. O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 22, 2013, 12:31:49 PM
can anyone confirm if the new restored OUATIA Italian dvd/blu ray is indeed region B/2 PAL locked? (The Dollars movies on Italian blu ray are all officially listed as region B and PAL, but every one of them is actually region-free and plays fine on my American blu ray player (I've heard that the bonus features are in PAL, though I never tried 'em). For each one, board members advised me that the feature was region-free so I bought the blu ray, and they played just fine on my American blu ray player

So the fact this restored OUATIA blu ray is listed as Region B/PAL doesn't scare me on its own. I am hoping someone can confirm for me whether the main feature is indeed Region B/PAL locked?

Thanks


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on March 23, 2013, 03:56:49 AM
can anyone confirm if the new restored OUATIA Italian dvd/blu ray is indeed region B/2 PAL locked? (The Dollars movies on Italian blu ray are all officially listed as region B and PAL, but every one of them is actually region-free and plays fine on my American blu ray player (I've heard that the bonus features are in PAL, though I never tried 'em). For each one, board members advised me that the feature was region-free so I bought the blu ray, and they played just fine on my American blu ray player

So the fact this restored OUATIA blu ray is listed as Region B/PAL doesn't scare me on its own. I am hoping someone can confirm for me whether the main feature is indeed Region B/PAL locked? Thanks

The new DVD extended version is PAL and Region 2 locked.  Whilst the running time of this version of the movie is quoted at 246 minutes, this includes a notice about the restoration at the beginning and copyright warnings at the end which run into several minutes. PAL speed up applies so I would expect the running time to be about 4% less than the Blu-ray.

According to McCrutchy at Blu-ray.com the new Blu-ray extended version is Region B locked. He has a multi-region player and when he sets this to region A or C, he gets the following notice:

Translated: This disc cannot be played because the player is set to a different region code

The Codec information is VC-1 Video   17010 kbps    1080p / 24 fps / 16:9 / Advanced Profile 3. Whilst the packaging says the running time of this version is 246 minutes, they have just repeated the DVD information.  The duration of this version of the movie is actually about 249 mins 40 secs.  It includes additional scenes of about 20 mins 50 secs.

McCrutchy's original post:  http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?p=6903629#post6903629 (http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?p=6903629#post6903629)

  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 23, 2013, 06:59:29 PM
Thanks for the info, chris. I suspected it would be this way since in all the news articles that were released about the restoration, it said that the Leone family has purchased the Italian rights to the movie.

I'm not sure what that means for us in America...


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Senza on March 24, 2013, 03:41:55 AM
...or for us in Australia  :)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 24, 2013, 04:01:45 AM
...or for us in Australia  :)

well aren't you guys region B/2? Then you can play the new restored dvd/blu ray on your blu ray players. (Not sure about language though)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Senza on March 24, 2013, 04:08:39 AM
well aren't you guys region B/2? Then you can play the new restored dvd/blu ray on your blu ray players. (Not sure about language though)

Yeah, we are. I just playing around. I actually have a multi-region blu ray player built into my PC, so regions aren't a problem for me anymore. This way, I can buy cheap blu rays [the prices here in Australia are kind of ridiculous and the quality of the product is nothing compared to the ones I've ordered from overseas - I'm a sucker for packaging, and the packages overseas are of much higher quality and much more aesthetic] from anywhere and not have to worry about region coding.

Atm, my eye has been on this tin set of OUATIA - http://www.amazon.fr/était-une-fois-Amérique-Blu-ray/dp/B004Z02FFY/
But I'll probably just buy it from here, atm, it's $12.98 on blu-ray so it's not bad.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on May 04, 2013, 02:10:46 AM
The new version aired on Sky Cinema 1 HD in Italy yesterday (May 3 2013).  Some viewers say it looked better than the new BD. There's still no news on a further release.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on May 04, 2013, 08:52:27 AM
The new version aired on Sky Cinema 1 HD in Italy yesterday (May 3 2013).  Some viewers say it looked better than the new BD.

Sounds promising...


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on July 30, 2013, 02:47:54 AM
There have been some recent discussions on the Italian forums about a forthcoming release in Germany.  It has been announced that in Dec 2013 a Premium Collection version with a Collector's book will be issued.

http://www.bluray-disc.de/blu-ray-filme/es-war-einmal-in-amerika-premium-collection-blu-ray-disc (http://www.bluray-disc.de/blu-ray-filme/es-war-einmal-in-amerika-premium-collection-blu-ray-disc)

This just looks like a repackaging of WB's 229 minute Blu-ray with a Collector's book and some are speculating that it may be a way of getting rid of stocks prior to new releases of both versions in 2014, which coincides with the 30th anniversary of the movie.

In the past Gustavo van Peteghem of Andrea Leone Films (gvp@andrealeonefilms.it) has been quite open and responsive to emails and possibly some-one on the other forums may try to find out the latest news and something definite from him.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on July 30, 2013, 09:14:19 PM
Interesting... keep us posted please!


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on September 15, 2013, 03:43:25 AM
Some interesting screencaps at caps-a-holic.  Selectable comparisons between the original DVD, WB's 229 min Blu-ray and the new extended Blu-ray.

For example, the fancy restaurant.  One of the scenes I thought looked particularly bad on a large screen TV.  Moving the mouse over the lower image reveals the defects of the new version and the additional detail.

http://www.caps-a-holic.com/...multi_comparison... (http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/multi_comparison.php?art=part&x=260&y=131&action=1&image=9&hd_multiID=296&cap1=25234&cap2=25249&disc1=2737&disc2=2738&lossless=#vergleich)



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on October 08, 2013, 02:41:23 AM
There is an 83 page thread on the new version at AVMagazine's Italian forum.  One member has recently been in contact with one of Sergio Leone's daughters on Twitter regarding the box set of both versions of the movie which Andrea Leone Films had hoped to bring out in the near future.  She confirms that so far a date has not been scheduled for this.

There is some speculation that the set may be just a repackaging of the existing 2 Blu-rays with no significant improvement in quality.  Gustavo van Peteghem from Andrea Leone Films wrote in a previous email that they have noted the comments regarding quality and they would take appropriate action consistent wth the logic of distribution and the market with regard to timing.

The latest development is a recent exchange of emails between Andrea Leone and the AVMagazine member.  Andrea blames the disaster on Warner who have the home video rights for the movie.  Andrea says he has not seen the Blu-ray but he will view it (make good?) and see what's wrong.  The AVMagazine member claims he has seen the new version in theaters and whilst it had a yellowish tinge he thought it suited the movie.  He seems more interested in the compression problems rather than the colors, milky blacks and lack of contrast.

A Google translated extract from his post:

Guys, I have some important updates.
I had an exchange of e-mails with Andrea Leone (the e-mail I got from the official website of Andrea Leone Films, maybe write them, too), and he told me that the responsibility for this disaster is exclusively for Warner, because it has the home video rights of the film. He added that there is a tug of war for years with Warner that rages on the film (in this part we knew), but, I was stunned, said he had not yet seen the blu-ray ( possible? Oo). He said he will make good and will see what's wrong. Meanwhile, I explained to him that the problem is that the whole movie has been poured on a single disc causing compression problems evident.
I do not know, I am a bit 'without words, among other things in my first e-mail I was a little' hard and felt offended, but my intent was not to offend, simply to express my outrage at the treatment of all 'work. Maybe you also send an e-mail, in a calm and noting that we have so many fans to "suffer" for this disaster Warner. The more we are, the better! I also re-write the Warner tomorrow.


Original: http://www.avmagazine.it/forum/70-blu-ray-disc-e-altri-media-hd/184918-bd-c-era-una-volta-in-america/page83 (http://www.avmagazine.it/forum/70-blu-ray-disc-e-altri-media-hd/184918-bd-c-era-una-volta-in-america/page83)

Google translation:

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate....c-era-una-volta-in-america%2Fpage83 (http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=it&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avmagazine.it%2Fforum%2F70-blu-ray-disc-e-altri-media-hd%2F184918-bd-c-era-una-volta-in-america%2Fpage83)

  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on October 08, 2013, 05:37:36 AM
That's right, Andrea, blame Warner. And don't even bother to watch the Blu-ray. Remember, the goal is to get as much of D&D's money as possible. The best way to do that is to issue several sub-standard discs, in succession, each one incrementally improved over the last. By the time you finally release the Ultimate Enhanced I'm Not Kidding This Time Super Director's Cut edition, you'll have your villa completely paid for.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on October 11, 2013, 02:45:20 AM
I think it was Andrea Leone's main intention to fully restore the movie and the additional scenes, re-create the 270 minute version originally made by his father and make it available to the Italian public in theaters.  Raffaella has said previously that she did not think her father's 229 minute version should be altered and preferred the additional scenes to be shown separately.

There seems to be a good deal of buck passing and naivety at Andrea Leone Films.  Gustavo van Peteghem claims he saw the new Blu-ray when it was first produced and thought it was excellent.  He was surprised at the number of complaints he received and said that they had taken advice from people directly connected with the movie in the 1980s.  He admitted that they knew very little about some of the technical aspects but had been assured by others that fitting a 250 minute movie onto one disc would not cause any problems .

There must be a conflict of interest at Warner Bros.  If they had produced an excellent product on 2 discs, sales of their 229 minute version in Europe would have more or less ceased overnight.  They do not seem to respond to emails but they would probably counter any criticism by saying that they were simply following their client's instructions.

Andrea Leone has promised to look at the new Blu-ray so hopefully we may get a better version at some time in the future.  Many people including Martin Scorcese, The Film Foundation and Gucci have invested large amounts of time and money into this project and it would be a great shame and waste if all this was not fully realised and made available to fans of the movie worldwide.  

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 11, 2013, 06:48:43 AM
if the new scenes look as they do in the YouTube clips I have seen – ie. vastly inferior image quality to the rest of the movie – I don't see how anyone could have possibly be happy with that. It's not a question of absolute image quality; it's a question of relative quality – it'll simply be an awful viewing experience if the new scenes look clearly different than the rest of the movie. It'd be extremely jarring for the viewer, and there is no way anyone could ever seamlessly consider the 250-minute movie if some of the scenes look different than the others. (Some people have speculated that maybe that's why the new blu-ray's image quality is supposedly so bad across the entire movie - ie. that the image quality was specifically made worse on the rest of the movie so that it shouldn't be so jarring that the new scenes are of such bad quality. In that case, there is really no good option: Fans won't accept a movie in which some scenes are of vastly inferior quality to the rest of the movie; and on the other hand, if you reduce the quality of the rest of the scenes to make them look as bad as the new scenes, fans are not gonna accept that either, because they know that the original 229 minutes are available in very good quality.


You can debate all you want on how you to distribute the blame, but IMO it simply comes down to this: Is there available technology that would restore the new scenes so that they look (almost) as good as the rest of the movie? Until the new scenes can look as good as the rest of the movie, there are really no good options. And if those new scenes are truly beyond repair (with the current technology), that's very sad. One can only hope that the technology will come along that can properly restore it, and that all options will be exhausted and all necessary resources will be expended to do so.

RE: dj's comment above about releasing poor products to try to squeeze money out of the consumer:

It's true that in general, companies often release inferior products, and then release better and better products slowly to try to get as much money as possible out of the consumer. But I'd highly doubt that Andrea Leone is doing that intentionally with OUATIA. I think this movie is important to the Leones for family/sentimental/artistic reasons, to complete the vision of their father, to have their father's final masterpiece finally released as he intended, and not just to make a buck. Besides, I don't know how the financial stuff works, but with all the money spent by The Film Foundation and Gucci on this, how much money does the Leone family stand to make anyway? And I don't think there is any way in hell that after all the effort and money expended by Gucci, Film Foundation, Scorsese, et al., that they would ever stand for a poor product being intentionally released by the Leone family. You can call me naive, but I truly believe that the people involved in the restoration of OUATIA have the right intentions.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on October 11, 2013, 09:48:29 AM
I think this movie is important to the Leones for family/sentimental/artistic reasons, to complete the vision of their father, to have their father's final masterpiece finally released as he intended, and not just to make a buck.
When I look up the word naïf in the dictionary, guess whose picture I find?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Groggy on October 12, 2013, 08:16:33 AM
Whose picture matches up with curmudgeon?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on November 10, 2013, 06:11:10 AM
There are now 92 pages of posts on the thread about the new extended version at avmagazine.it .  One of its members posted a couple of hours ago:


"Raffaella Leone wrote to me telling me that the decision to put everything on one BD was made by WB and the Leones are working on a better BD version (a box set that will contain the extended version, cinematography and lots of extras). It will be ready in 2014 (30 years after the release of the movie).

Raffaella Leone also told me that they will verify the matter of color :)  I hope! "


If this is true (I have no reason to believe it's not true) it's great news.   O0

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on November 10, 2013, 07:06:42 AM
 O0 O0 O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 10, 2013, 07:22:31 AM
CJ, don't be so quick to give thumbs-up; even if this news is true, this may only be an Italian release.... When the news first came down about a restoration, it said the Leone family purchased the Italian rights to the film. I wondered then what that meant for us in America; and when the extended blu-ray was finally released, it was indeed only Region B.... If the Leone family is really gonna release a new and improved extended blu-ray now, I'd hope we get it here in America, too.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on November 10, 2013, 07:26:51 AM
There are ways of getting a hold of it regardless  >:D


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on November 10, 2013, 08:36:03 AM
Exactamundo!


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on November 10, 2013, 09:14:45 AM
If this is true (I have no reason to believe it's not true) it's great news.   O0

Indeed it is

CJ, don't be so quick to give thumbs-up; even if this news is true, this may only be an Italian release.... When the news first came down about a restoration, it said the Leone family purchased the Italian rights to the film. I wondered then what that meant for us in America; and when the extended blu-ray was finally released, it was indeed only Region B.... If the Leone family is really gonna release a new and improved extended blu-ray now, I'd hope we get it here in America, too.

D&D you really need to stop lamenting about region encoding issues and get yourself set-up multi-region


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 10, 2013, 09:27:12 AM
is there a single blu-ray player I can buy and play all discs in, period, or do I have to change the region code each time I put a new disc in? I'm not all that technologically proficient and I wouldn't wanna do anything that you have to know too much; I'm afraid I'd screw that up. If it's just as simple as paying a few bucks for a region-free player and then playing all discs in it normally, I'd be happy to do that. So, advise away....


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on November 11, 2013, 06:05:24 PM
On DVD players it is a software issue - hence the vast majority are able to play all discs from all regions at all times

ON BD players it is a hardware issue - hence the player has to be booted up in the region desired.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on November 19, 2013, 02:59:53 AM
There are quite a few pitfalls and and complications with region free Blu-ray players and there are many posts on the subject at Blu-ray.com.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/forumdisplay.php?f=29 (http://forum.blu-ray.com/forumdisplay.php?f=29)

One supplier of region free Blu-ray players has an interesting comparison guide and warns that TV's from the USA may not support the resolution HDMI input from a foreign disc, in which case a video converter may need to be purchased. They seem to offer advice and an after sales service.

http://www.220-electronics.com/blu-ray-dvd/region-free-blu-ray-player.html (http://www.220-electronics.com/blu-ray-dvd/region-free-blu-ray-player.html)

There is a specific thread about them and comments from board members at:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=188381&highlight=region+free+blu-ray+player&page=5 (http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=188381&highlight=region+free+blu-ray+player&page=5)

I suppose it depends on how technically minded a person is, their budget, whether they are prepared to take risks and whether the number of region locked foreign disks they intend to purchase is worth the cost and complications.  Other ways may be direct importing or downloading video files.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on November 19, 2013, 08:43:32 PM
I bought a region-free Pioneer BD player several years ago and just used it right out of the box.

The only word of caution I would give is actually the same for DVD players - ideally use a TV that accepts NTSC and PAL (in the case of BDs usually only an issue with supplements as the main feature should always be HD) so you don't have to rely on horrible encoders which degrade the image quality.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on December 07, 2013, 08:22:00 PM
On DVD players it is a software issue - hence the vast majority are able to play all discs from all regions at all times

ON BD players it is a hardware issue - hence the player has to be booted up in the region desired.

I think I should probably have said "firmware" rather than "hardware" for BD players...?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 07, 2013, 10:09:33 PM
thanks.

If I can't simply buy a region-free player and play discs in it normally, then I don't think I am gonna do this. I don't wanna get a player whwre I have to change regions back n' forth, etc. I'm not all that technologically proficient and I'm always afraid that if I make one change I won't be able to then change it back  ;)

but if there is some blu-ray player that I can just buy and then stick in discs from all regions and play them and that's all, then I'd buy it... does such a player exist?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on December 08, 2013, 03:21:55 AM
http://www.220-electronics.com/sony-bdp-s5100-region-free-blu-ray-dvd-player.html (http://www.220-electronics.com/sony-bdp-s5100-region-free-blu-ray-dvd-player.html)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 08, 2013, 06:04:29 AM
http://www.220-electronics.com/sony-bdp-s5100-region-free-blu-ray-dvd-player.html (http://www.220-electronics.com/sony-bdp-s5100-region-free-blu-ray-dvd-player.html)

have you used this and know it's good?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on December 08, 2013, 12:45:52 PM
http://www.220-electronics.com/sony-bdp-s5100-region-free-blu-ray-dvd-player.html (http://www.220-electronics.com/sony-bdp-s5100-region-free-blu-ray-dvd-player.html)
Looking at the specs, it doesn't say anything about automatic region switching. I don't know, because I haven't used the deck, but I'd bet you still have to manually switch the regions (for Blu-ray, of course; DVDs of all regions play in all BD decks).


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on December 08, 2013, 04:53:12 PM
have you used this and know it's good?

no, haven't used it, it was recommended on an electronic page.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on December 21, 2013, 06:28:33 PM
There is reason to think that a Region A Blu-ray is coming soon, maybe by Spring of 2014: http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?p=8558489#post8558489 (Scroll to the top and hit the "show spoiler" button).


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 22, 2013, 03:37:01 AM
There is reason to think that a Region A Blu-ray is coming soon, maybe by Spring of 2014: http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?p=8558489#post8558489 (Scroll to the top and hit the "show spoiler" button).

This is great news.  Hopefully the U.S. version won't have the compression and colorimetry problems of the Italian release.

Very little has been announced about the new version, release date, running time, regional coding etc. and no doubt we'll get some more definite information in due course.

Similar post on the Home Theater forum:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/319934-a-little-look-at-once-upon-a-time-in-america-the-restoration-on-blu-ray/page-5 (http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/319934-a-little-look-at-once-upon-a-time-in-america-the-restoration-on-blu-ray/page-5#entry4033769)

  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on May 09, 2014, 02:14:49 AM
There may be some good news.

It's recently been reported that the MPAA have given a R rating to the extended version of the movie.

This may indicate that Warner Home Video are making some progress in their plans to release the extended version in the USA.

http://www.imdb.com/news/ni57159650/ (http://www.imdb.com/news/ni57159650/)

http://www.ropeofsilicon.com/step-dolphin-tale-2-upon-time-america-todays-mpaa-ratings-bulletin/ (http://www.ropeofsilicon.com/step-dolphin-tale-2-upon-time-america-todays-mpaa-ratings-bulletin/)

  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on May 09, 2014, 04:54:46 AM
great


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on May 09, 2014, 09:28:12 PM
There may be some good news.

It's recently been reported that the MPAA have given a R rating to the extended version of the movie.

This may indicate that Warner Home Video are making some progress in their plans to release the extended version in the USA.

http://www.imdb.com/news/ni57159650/ (http://www.imdb.com/news/ni57159650/)

http://www.ropeofsilicon.com/step-dolphin-tale-2-upon-time-america-todays-mpaa-ratings-bulletin/ (http://www.ropeofsilicon.com/step-dolphin-tale-2-upon-time-america-todays-mpaa-ratings-bulletin/)

I can't believe the article starts with "A rather uninteresting bulletin this week..." and then hits us with that incredibly interesting news.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 14, 2014, 02:19:05 AM
Does the fact that this new version of the movie was submitted to the MPAA for a rating mean it'll be shown in theaters? I assume no rating is required for a DVD/BRD release....


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on June 05, 2014, 04:05:27 AM
According to Blu-ray.com, the extended director's cut is to be released in the U.S. on Sep 30, 2014.

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Once-Upon-a-Time-in-America-Blu-ray/95062/ (http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Once-Upon-a-Time-in-America-Blu-ray/95062/)

They state a running time of 269 minutes and posts at Blu-ray.com's forum seem to support this:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?p=9278009#post9278009 (http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?p=9278009#post9278009)

Warner Bros. Home Entertainment is releasing an Extended Director's Cut of Sergio Leone's Once Upon a Time in America on Blu-ray this fall. The extended version features 40-minutes of additional footage, bringing the runtime to 269 minutes, and was supervised by the film's original sound editor, Fausto Ancillai. The Extended Director's Cut makes its U.S. Blu-ray debut on September 30th.

New artwork plus a book? Extended version on a single BD? Compression/color problems? Extra 18 minutes? Region A?
  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on June 05, 2014, 08:33:46 AM
Will it be yellow? :D


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on June 05, 2014, 08:54:53 AM
According to Blu-ray.com, the extended director's cut is to be released in the U.S. on Sep 30, 2014.

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Once-Upon-a-Time-in-America-Blu-ray/95062/ (http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Once-Upon-a-Time-in-America-Blu-ray/95062/)

They state a running time of 269 minutes and posts at Blu-ray.com's forum seem to support this:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?p=9278009#post9278009 (http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?p=9278009#post9278009)

Warner Bros. Home Entertainment is releasing an Extended Director's Cut of Sergio Leone's Once Upon a Time in America on Blu-ray this fall. The extended version features 40-minutes of additional footage, bringing the runtime to 269 minutes, and was supervised by the film's original sound editor, Fausto Ancillai. The Extended Director's Cut makes its U.S. Blu-ray debut on September 30th.

New artwork plus a book? Extended version on a single BD? Compression/color problems? Extra 18 minutes? Region A?
Another poster at Blu-ray.com has subsequently posted this:
Quote
Today, the Film Society of Lincoln Center announced today, that they will be screening the extended version, as part of the 52nd New York Film Festival, this September. Their press release stated that this version of the film "includes 22-minutes of restored footage, never before seen in the United States." This would indicated that the cut that will be screened, will be 251 minutes (229 + 22). Knowing this, I would be very surprised if the Blu-ray contains the full 269 minute cut.

 So, you might not want to get your hopes up.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on June 05, 2014, 09:14:08 AM
The following link gives some details about the booklet accompanying the new BD -  a new 32-page book with rare photos and insightful notes that chronicle the movie's production history - and confirms that the movie will have its U.S. premiere at the 2014 New York Film Festival which runs between September 26 and October 12.  They contradict WHV's runtime figure but no doubt further information will be released in due course.

http://www.broadwayworld.com/bwwmovies/article/ONCE-UPON-A-TIME-IN-AMERICA-Extended-Directors-Cut-Edition-Comes-to-DVD-930-20140605# (http://www.broadwayworld.com/bwwmovies/article/ONCE-UPON-A-TIME-IN-AMERICA-Extended-Directors-Cut-Edition-Comes-to-DVD-930-20140605#)

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on June 05, 2014, 09:45:26 AM
The following link gives some details about the booklet accompanying the new BD -  a new 32-page book with rare photos and insightful notes that chronicle the movie's production history - and confirms that the movie will have its U.S. premiere at the 2014 New York Film Festival which runs between September 26 and October 12.  They contradict WHV's runtime figure but no doubt further information will be released in due course.

http://www.broadwayworld.com/bwwmovies/article/ONCE-UPON-A-TIME-IN-AMERICA-Extended-Directors-Cut-Edition-Comes-to-DVD-930-20140605# (http://www.broadwayworld.com/bwwmovies/article/ONCE-UPON-A-TIME-IN-AMERICA-Extended-Directors-Cut-Edition-Comes-to-DVD-930-20140605#)
Hahahaha, D&D is gonna hurt himself trying to figure out which of the new releases to buy:
Quote
Once Upon a Time in America will be released in three home entertainment editions: the 2-disc Extended Director's Cut Collector's Edition Blu-ray ($34.99 SRP) which contains the Extended Director's Cut, the 1984 theatrical edition, Digital HD with UltraViolet, plus the 32-page book with rare photos and chronicles of the movie's production; the single-disc Extended Director's Cut Blu-ray ($19.98 SRP); and the two-disc Extended Director's Cut DVD ($14.97 SRP).


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on June 05, 2014, 05:46:10 PM
The extended cut runs 251 min.: http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=14163


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 05, 2014, 10:48:20 PM
Hahahaha, D&D is gonna hurt himself trying to figure out which of the new releases to buy:

no, I'm definitely getting the  biggest best baddest one.

Yeah, I knew the 269-minute rumor was too good to be true. They'll save that for the NEXT re-re-restoration. For now, the best we can get is teh 251-minute version from Cannes. All we can hope for is that the new scenes will look decent.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on June 06, 2014, 06:34:00 PM
Lots of chatter on the boards about potential compression issues. If there are 2 BD discs on the deluxe release, one for each version of the film, that means a single disc holding a 251 min. film. There could be artifacts out the kazoo on this--never mind the quality of the restored footage. :-\


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Derbent 5000 on June 07, 2014, 12:25:16 AM
suppose good news that warner finally decide to release the movie in extended form 251 min what about other 18 min the Marty Scorsese were talking about and we don't know what transfer look like I hope not the one that got released in Italy which is terrible and main concern is extended scenes state what they would look like in US release and one more thing Blu-ray cover art cover art looks terrible they might want to consider to change   


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Derbent 5000 on June 07, 2014, 12:32:10 AM
I think Warner Bros releasing the Blu-ray to make fans happy, but I wouldn't be surprise in a few years there will be another release with complete version I hope


Title: Re: DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Derbent 5000 on June 07, 2014, 12:53:44 AM
At Cannes Film Festival press release in pdf here http://www.festival-cannes.com/assets/Image/Direct/045945.pdf (http://www.festival-cannes.com/assets/Image/Direct/045945.pdf) was mention that new version is 4 hours 15 min 255 min, but Blu-ray released in Italy 4 hours 11 min 251 min which is US prepping to release on September 30 so there is great deal of confusion of runtime versions


Title: Re: DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on June 07, 2014, 02:37:24 AM
At Cannes Film Festival press release in pdf here http://www.festival-cannes.com/assets/Image/Direct/045945.pdf (http://www.festival-cannes.com/assets/Image/Direct/045945.pdf) was mention that new version is 4 hours 15 min 255 min, but Blu-ray released in Italy 4 hours 11 min 251 min which is US prepping to release on September 30 so there is great deal of confusion of runtime versions

There's a lot of misinformation about this film. Many people including Frayling thought that the additional scenes didn't have sound and there's some confusion about the the translation of "inediti", which Google and other sources translate as unpublished but others think means unedited.

When the discs for the extended Italian version were first released, there were stickers stating 26 minutes of unpublished material.

Prior to Cannes precise details of the additional scenes were given but adding the times together gave a total of 22 mins 34 secs only.

When the discs were released the total of the additional scenes was 20 mins 51 secs only.

During the restoration process, it was stated that there was no guesswork about where the scenes should be inserted and the restorers knew the exact start and end points of each sequence.

However obviously some of the additional footage is in too poor a condition to be restored properly and some may conflict with alterations which were made to the movie in subsequent cuts.

We're still missing about 18 minutes and whilst the restorers knew the exact start and end points, they have had to do some re-editing themselves.

One obvious example is the scene between Noodles and the chauffeur prior to meeting Deborah at the theater.

In the pre-Cannes information this scene lasted 2 mins 6 secs. On the BD this lasts 1 min 10 secs.

Despite knowing the exact start and end point there's no doubt in my mind that significant re-editing has taken place.

Regarding colors I did have a quick look at a Red/Green/Blue (RGB) analysis of some of the direct captures from the Italian extended version some time ago.

For whites and blacks these values should be more or less equal, e.g. 0/0/0 for black and 255/255/255 for white.  In the Italian extended version the blue values are significantly lower than the other 2 values.  From memory I don't think that there was a corresponding disparity in the colors of the new scenes.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on June 07, 2014, 03:31:19 AM
Taking another quick look at the comparisons at caps-a-holic:

http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/multi_comparison.php?disc1=2737&disc2=2738&cap1=25236&cap2=25251&art=full&image=11&hd_multiID=296&action=1&lossless=#vergleich (http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/multi_comparison.php?disc1=2737&disc2=2738&cap1=25236&cap2=25251&art=full&image=11&hd_multiID=296&action=1&lossless=#vergleich)

(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w494/chris5522/extcomp/beachcomp_zps2272880e.jpg~original)

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on June 07, 2014, 09:15:04 AM
here is what restore transfer should look and I hope US transfer should look like

Source?


Title: DIRECTOR'S CUT
Post by: Derbent 5000 on June 08, 2014, 05:25:30 PM
Source?

I found it online can't recall where it was back in 2013


Title: DIRECTOR'S CUT
Post by: Derbent 5000 on June 08, 2014, 05:27:28 PM
Italian BD deleted scenes looks poor it's dark greenish but somehow watchable, except scenes the cemetery, limo chauffer driver, and eve meeting noodles, Martin Scorsese mention in press release that they couldn't find original negatives yet of the deleted scenes, only element were available discarded strips of working positives that has been badly preserved, since Cannes premiere movie was withdrawn for further restoration but we'll see upon US BD hope deleted scenes will look descent then on Italian BD

I hope the original negatives of missing scenes turns out some where one day, and maybe even with more deleted scenes we just have to pray wait and hope


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 08, 2014, 07:20:40 PM
suppose good news that warner finally decide to release the movie in extended form 251 min what about other 18 min the Marty Scorsese were talking about and we don't know what transfer look like I hope not the one that got released in Italy which is terrible and main concern is extended scenes state what they would look like in US release and one more thing Blu-ray cover art cover art looks terrible they might want to consider to change   

have you ever heard of a comma? of a period?  of writing something in a way that readers should be able to understand it easily?  ;)


Title: Re: DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on June 09, 2014, 03:01:05 AM
At Cannes Film Festival press release in pdf here http://www.festival-cannes.com/assets/Image/Direct/045945.pdf (http://www.festival-cannes.com/assets/Image/Direct/045945.pdf)...

Thanks for this link Derbent 5000. It would be good if the colors of the new BDs matched some of the images in the press release.

Nice to see some blues and whites again, white tablecloths and that Noodles is wearing a white shirt for his date with Deborah.

(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w494/chris5522/extnew/pr2_zpsa2485e18.jpg~original)

(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w494/chris5522/extnew/pr1_zps7af54e8b.jpg~original)

(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w494/chris5522/extnew/pr4_zps22cb2ea8.jpg~original)

(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w494/chris5522/extnew/pr3_zpsbf3e7e30.jpg~original)

In any event I've pre-ordered my copy and just hope it will be an improvement on the present BDs plus of course the 32 page book.

  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 09, 2014, 03:28:29 AM
Taking another quick look at the comparisons at caps-a-holic:

http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/multi_comparison.php?disc1=2737&disc2=2738&cap1=25236&cap2=25251&art=full&image=11&hd_multiID=296&action=1&lossless=#vergleich (http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/multi_comparison.php?disc1=2737&disc2=2738&cap1=25236&cap2=25251&art=full&image=11&hd_multiID=296&action=1&lossless=#vergleich)


  

these comparison caps are between the American WB blu-ray, and which Italian version? is it the Italian version currently out, the one that is 229 minutes; or is it the new version that is 251 minutes?

When I compared the screencaps, to me, in most of the shots the WB version is definitely superior. The colors in the WB version look much more realistic (and btwm they look much more red) whereas in the Italian version, the colors look washed out, much darker (browner?) that they would realistically be.
Of course, that does NOT mean that the WB version is the more accurate one; maybe Leone wanted the washed-out brown look, especially for the 1920's scenes. Actually, as I am writing this, I seem to recall Frayling (in STDWD) quoting Leone saying he went for brown colors in the 1920's scenes; but I am too lazy to go check the book now. So, if he was going for a sepia-like look and have muted, washed-out color to evoke the era, then maybe the Italian version is the correct one (or at least closer to correct) ; but if you're looking for correct colors, then IMO the WB version is preferable.... Again, the WB definitely is redder, so I guess we now have to go through the same discussion all over again that we've been having recently RE: GBU. I dropped out of that discussion; I may have to drop outta this one now.... Okay, insasmuch as I don't wanna get myself stressed over something that is just speculation until the disc is actually released and available for our home-viewing pleasure, I think I am gonna try to stay out of these color debates until I can actually watch the new disc for myself   ;)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on June 09, 2014, 03:43:09 AM
I'm preparing a fan edit with the RIGHT colors. Here are the grading tests I did on a few shots. The picture may look a bit more square than what we're use to watch but I added some details on the top and bottom so that it's easier to share on Instagram:

Deborah dancing (she now beautifully stands out against the smoky background):
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-OiFpaALjWv0/UNg7ELSrC9I/AAAAAAAAAf8/XEwQn2BEWHM/s150-c/photo.jpg)

The shot of the poster (the Manhattan Bridge looks gorgeous with the new grading):
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-OiFpaALjWv0/UNg7ELSrC9I/AAAAAAAAAf8/XEwQn2BEWHM/s150-c/photo.jpg)

After the rape (Milchan's face has never looked better with such vivid colors):
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-OiFpaALjWv0/UNg7ELSrC9I/AAAAAAAAAf8/XEwQn2BEWHM/s150-c/photo.jpg)

Final smile (I also removed the weird filter between the lense and Noodles' face. Everything's clean now!):
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-OiFpaALjWv0/UNg7ELSrC9I/AAAAAAAAAf8/XEwQn2BEWHM/s150-c/photo.jpg)

The cousin of a guy whose name is close to the one of another man who was friend with the casting assistant who almost worked on OUATIA personally supervised the new grading so we're good.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on June 09, 2014, 03:58:49 AM
I'm preparing a fan edit with the RIGHT colors. Here are the grading tests I did on a few shots. The picture may look a bit more square than what we're use to watch but I added some details on the top and bottom so that it's easier to share on Instagram:

Deborah dancing (she now beautifully stands out against the smoky background):
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-OiFpaALjWv0/UNg7ELSrC9I/AAAAAAAAAf8/XEwQn2BEWHM/s150-c/photo.jpg)

etc....

This is quite funny    ;D


                                                        



these comparison caps are between the American WB blu-ray, and which Italian version? is it the Italian version currently out, the one that is 229 minutes; or is it the new version that is 251 minutes?
  
When I compared the screencaps, to me, in most of the shots the WB version is definitely superior. The colors in the WB version look much more realistic (and btwm they look much more red) whereas in the Italian version, the colors look washed out, much darker (browner?) that they would realistically be...

The comparison caps are between WBs 229 min BD and the 251 min Italian extended edition BD.

If it makes it any easier this link gives a window rather than full screen:

http://www.caps-a-holic.com...in a window#vergleich (http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/multi_comparison.php?art=part&x=453&y=277&action=1&image=0&hd_multiID=&cap1=25236&cap2=25251&disc1=2737&disc2=2738&lossless=#vergleich)

The scene is from the 1930s, at the Don CeSar Beach Resort, St Pete Beach, Florida, there is bright sunlight as evidenced by the distinct shadows, a blue sky and lots of white towels.

(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w494/chris5522/extcomp/beachcomp_zps2272880e.jpg~original)
The detail in the Italian BD is slightly sharper (see the striped vest above Max's head) but there are severe and obvious color, contrast and compression problems.

WB's 2011 BD was not perfect. For me parts looked slightly fuzzy (dnr?) and there is possibly a slight bluish tint. Still the best available ignoring the new scenes but hopefully it will be surpassed by WB's new version.

Sergio Leone and Tonino Delli Colli have both commented on how the movie is supposed to look and how Rn was used to obtain much deeper velvety blacks, much more luminous whites, added brilliance to everything and reinforced the contrasts.

From an interview between Sergio Leone and Jean A Gili originally published in Positif Magazine No. 280 dated June 1984 and repeated in Jean A Gili's book Italian Filmmakers published in 1998:

Sergio Leone: "Delli Colli is very good; he created fabulous photography for Once Upon a Time in America, he managed to capture the atmosphere of three different periods. Thanks to Rn, Delli Colli could play with the different eras, the twenties with the children; 1933 with pastel colors; finally our own times with sequences set in 1968. Rn is a well-known Technicolor process that's a little more expensive but can help you obtain much deeper blacks and much more luminous whites."

From Oreste de Fornari's book Sergio Leone: The Great Italian Dream Of Legendary America, which was originally published in Italian as Tutti i film di Sergio Leone.

Tonino Delli Colli: "Sergio and I understood each other very well; there was no need for a lot of instructions. We shared a point of departure, an aesthetic principle: in a Western you cannot use a lot of color. We kept to subdued shades: black, brown, off-white, since the buildings were wooden and the colors of the landscape rather vivid. In Once Upon a Time in the West we gave a sandy color to the whole copy. We like colors like these; we have the same tastes.

In Once Upon a Time in America we differentiated between three periods. For 1923, a sepia print that recalls the photos of that period. For 1930 we tried to keep the image as neutral as possible, a kind of metallic black-and-white, cold approach to the gangster films of that epoch. For 1968 no special effect. We used a little Rn, a special bath patented by Technicolor Italiana, which made the blacks more velvety, added brilliance to everything and reinforced the contrasts."

So can anyone honestly say that the Italian extended edition BD has velvety blacks, much more luminous whites, added brilliance to everything and reinforced contrasts?

  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on June 09, 2014, 07:37:29 AM
   
 
I found someone who likes the Italian extended version:

 

 
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w494/chris5522/extnew/dog2_zpsc199a7b2.jpg~original)




Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on June 09, 2014, 08:05:52 AM
 ;D ;D ;D

(No, I DIDN'T call DJ a dog)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on June 09, 2014, 12:15:04 PM
I'm sooooo glad you can find ways to thoroughly amuse yourself. Work is a little slow now, I take it?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on June 09, 2014, 12:22:39 PM
Work is a little slow now, I take it?

Actually not at all but I'm in the middle of terrifyingly boring things: days of screen replacements (Looks like this, but for DAYS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRLGH3iFwX4 + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqn6YmfZl5Y) and an afternoon of administrative bullshit.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: roger_d on June 10, 2014, 12:52:20 PM
Title: Once Upon a Time in America: Extended Director's Cut
Starring: Robert de Niro
Released: 30th September 2014
SRP: $34.99, $19.98, $17.97

Further Details:
Warner Brothers Home Entertainment sent over information on the restored, extended director's cut of Sergio Leone's ultimate epic, Once Upon a Time in America(including 22 minutes of additional footage). The Blu-ray Combo Pack version (Blu-ray/Digital Copy) will include a 32-page booklet with rare photos and production notes, along with a Blu-ray copy of the theatrical cut. There will also be single disc Blu-ray and two disc DVD version that will not include the theatrical cut. All versions will include excerpts from a Sergio Leone documentary.



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 10, 2014, 03:54:53 PM
Thanks for the info. My thoughts/questions:

I assume "theatrical cut" means the 229MV (not the butchered travesty that was originally released in American theaters).
So this means that the two versions (the 229MV and the 251MV) will be on separate discs, rather than on a single disc with seamless branching....

Now, I don't know anything about technical stuff, but I know that when the 251MV was recently released on Italian BRD, lotsa people were complaining about the fact that it didn't look good cuz there were compression problems cuz they put the whole thing on a single disc; people were saying they should have put it on 2 discs. So it seems that on the new releases, each version will be on a single disc again, so we can expect the same compression problems? (what about dual layering? I don't remember whether that Italian release with the compression problems was single-layered or dual-layered. Any word on whether this new release will be single-layered or dual-layered?... Come to think of it, I don't recall anyone complaining about layering or compression on the original 229-minuute BRD. Would the extra 22 minutes make a big difference RE: compression? Then again, some people speculated that the reason that Italian BRD of the 251MV sucked - even the 229 minutes or original scenes looked awful, they said - was that the quality of those scenes was purposely reduced so that they wouldn't clash so badly with the new scenes, whose quality was awful. If that is true, then maybe it wasn't a compression issue after all?

Will the 229MV in this boxset be identical to the previous WB BRD; or has a restoration been done on that 229MV as well, so that the original 229 minutes - both in the new 229MV BRD and in the 251MV BRD- will be improved from the original 229-minute BRD?

It's ridiculous that they aren't having any new bonus features. Is it perhaps because they can't afford to use any more space on the disc? WOULD IT KILL THEM TO HAVE ANOTHER DISC IN THE BOXSET???
Anyway, in case you couldn't tell, I am excited ;)


Title: DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Derbent 5000 on June 11, 2014, 02:01:56 AM
Restored Extended Version should look like on the new upcoming US BD

(http://s17.postimg.org/v85dtn9j3/gal2_gucci.jpg)

(http://s24.postimg.org/v34iku3bp/gal4_gucci.jpg)

(http://s27.postimg.org/85se8dj5f/gal12_gucci.jpg)

(http://s22.postimg.org/m6xwyu07l/gal6_gucci.jpg)

(http://s17.postimg.org/qc1r1y9dr/gal8_gucci.jpg)

(http://s27.postimg.org/sw6bw7inn/gal10_gucci.jpg)

(p.s. had to upload from another hosting because website went down)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on June 11, 2014, 04:03:59 AM
Some of the images look a bit dark to me but the color balance seems o.k.

(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w494/chris5522/extnew/gucci8_zps4def77a2.jpg~original)

...when the 251MV was recently released on Italian BRD, lotsa people were complaining about the fact that it didn't look good cuz there were compression problems cuz they put the whole thing on a single disc; people were saying they should have put it on 2 discs. So it seems that on the new releases, each version will be on a single disc again, so we can expect the same compression problems? (what about dual layering? I don't remember whether that Italian release with the compression problems was single-layered or dual-layered.

Will the 229MV in this boxset be identical to the previous WB BRD; or has a restoration been done on that 229MV as well, so that the original 229 minutes - both in the new 229MV BRD and in the 251MV BRD- will be improved from the original 229-minute BRD?

It's ridiculous that they aren't having any new bonus features. Is it perhaps because they can't afford to use any more space on the disc? WOULD IT KILL THEM TO HAVE ANOTHER DISC IN THE BOXSET???
Anyway, in case you couldn't tell, I am excited ;)  

Having received an email today telling me when I (as a U.K. resident) am likely to receive the new boxset (November), I'm less excited but we'll see.

The page at caps-a-holic has some of the technical details:

http://www.caps-a-holic.com...vergleich (http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/multi_comparison.php?art=part&x=453&y=277&action=1&image=0&hd_multiID=&cap1=25236&cap2=25251&disc1=2737&disc2=2738&lossless=#vergleich)

The Italian and US BDs were both dual layered

Approx size on disc:  47.2 gigabytes (It) and 44.7 gigabytes (US)

Average compression bitrate:  17010 kps (It) and 14961 kps (US)

Codecs:  VC-1 Video  (It) and  MPEG-4 AVC Video (US)

The compression rate on WB's 2011 BD is worse. WB have received criticism in the past for over-use of DNR (digital noise reduction). Possibly over-use of DNR is why WB's 2011 BD looks a bit fuzzy to me and the compression artifacts are not as evident as those in the Italian BD. I agree that a film of this importance should be on 2 BDs. The movie has an intermission and other movies such as Ben-Hur and Cleopatra are on 2 BDs.

I think Andrea Leone Films used WB's scanner to make a new 4K scan of the 229 minute version, so both the theatrical and the extended version should be new.

All I hope for is that, in the new extended and theatrical versions, the color and contrast will be correct, i.e. the same as Leone's 1984 version, there will be no obvious compression artifacts and DNR will not be over-used.

It would also be good if the 32-page book with rare photos and production notes contains something interesting or useful such as details of the missing 18 minutes and why these can't be made public, but this is probably too much to ask for.

  



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on June 11, 2014, 10:31:24 AM
Did a quick comparison between one of the images Derbent 5000 kindly provided and direct captures from WB's 2011 BD and The Italian extended BD :

(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w494/chris5522/extnew/gucci8a0_zps1c85d25d.jpg~original)


WB's 2011 BD is similar colorwise but has been cropped/zoomed in
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w494/chris5522/extnew/gucci8b1_zpsf9d5a015.jpg~original)


Slight lowering of greens and a significant lowering of blues in the Italian extended BD.  Extra detail at sides.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w494/chris5522/extnew/gucci8b2_zps0b2f1024.jpg~original)


You don't have to journey far into the movie to see the tint:

Opening Titles  (white on black?)

WB's 2011 BD
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w494/chris5522/extnew/title1a_zpsb4252b29.jpg~original)


Italian extended BD
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w494/chris5522/extnew/title1b_zpsfb69e2ac.jpg~original)


Also had a quick look at the colors in some of the new and existing scenes to see if the whole film had been deliberately tinted so that colors would tie in better.

In some of the new scenes there is a lowering of green and blue values but the new scenes still stand out like a sore thumb.  

To me it doesn't make sense to ruin a 229 minute movie to accommodate an additional 22 minutes.

Surely it would've been better to spend some more time on restoring the 20 or so minutes of new scenes and tinting them to tie in better with the other 229 minutes.


(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w494/chris5522/extnew/bailey2_zpsa93d6b22.jpg~original)

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on June 11, 2014, 02:48:23 PM
How it would all look in Black & White  ;)  O0 O0 O0

(http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/cigarjoe/gal2_gucci_zpsd2d31835.jpg)

(http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/cigarjoe/gal8_gucci_zps898c4caa.jpg)

(http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/cigarjoe/bailey2_zpsef605eeb.jpg)

(http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/cigarjoe/gal4_gucci_zps97d43ae1.jpg)

(http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/cigarjoe/gal12_gucci_zps2b827a09.jpg)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on June 11, 2014, 09:35:40 PM
B&W looks pretty good. Yeah, I guess we can buy the new disc and dial the color down and have something where the new scenes don't stick out.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on June 12, 2014, 04:09:00 AM
B&W looks pretty good. Yeah, I guess we can buy the new disc and dial the color down and have something where the new scenes don't stick out.

lol, yea that's exactly what I was thinking.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 12, 2014, 06:37:04 AM
as chris says, I think it's bullshit to make the 229 minutes look bad in order to have it blend in with the other 22 minutes. Ruin more than 90% of the movie to accommodate less than 10%? They should have done the best job they could with these 22 minutes, and also done the best job they could with the 229 minutes – even if that makes the 22 mins. stick out worse.

just one interesting issue to think about: if it is true that they A) did a new restoration of the 229 mins.; and B) they only screwed up the color on the 251MV so that the scenes should all look similar, then I guess that SHOULD mean that they won't screw up the color in the disc that has the 229MV; therefore, the 229MV should look a lot better than the original 229 minutes will look in the 251MV. if that's the case – that the 229MV looks far better than the 251MV – then I don't think I'd ever watch the 251MV, except the first time just to see how the scenes fit. Instead, I'll probably just watch the 229MV and then go to the other disc and watch those other scenes separately. Anyway, I guess we're gonna have to hope for some fan edits, mixing the 22 mins. into the best 229MV-disc, whether that is the WB one or the 229MV in the new boxset.

one a separate note: as we see in these screencaps, the WB disc was cropped on the sides; the new disc will show more on the sides. I wonder if the reason the WB disc was cropped was to get the movie to 1.78:1 instead of 1.85:1?
The movie's correct aspect ratio is 1.85:1, which means that when you watch the DVD/BRD on an HDTV (which, of course, is 1.78:1), you should see tiny black bars on top and bottom. But you don't, which means that they chopped the movie to 1.78:1 to fit the HDTV screen without any black bars. I remember asking about whether they chopped the sides, and someone on these boards said, no, in these cases, to change from 1.85:1 to 1.78:1, they usually show more on top and bottom, not less on the sides. Well, maybe he was wrong: maybe WB indeed chopped some of the sides to get it to 1.78:1. And maybe now, the restoration is attempting to return it to its correct aspect ratio of 1.85:1; we'll know for sure once the disc is released, if we see tiny black bars on top and bottom of the screen. Of course, they'd be very tiny, cuz the difference between 1.85:1 and 1.78:1 is very little. Nevertheless, I hate that they chop it; they should just release all movies in their correct aspect ratios and stop worrying that viewers don't want black bars on the screen. If we are fine with having big bars for 4:3 movies and 2.35:1 movies, why shouldn't we be happy having tiny bars for 1.85:1 movies?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on June 13, 2014, 01:49:03 AM
...one a separate note: as we see in these screencaps, the WB disc was cropped on the sides; the new disc will show more on the sides. I wonder if the reason the WB disc was cropped was to get the movie to 1.78:1 instead of 1.85:1?
The movie's correct aspect ratio is 1.85:1, which means that when you watch the DVD/BRD on an HDTV (which, of course, is 1.78:1), you should see tiny black bars on top and bottom. But you don't, which means that they chopped the movie to 1.78:1 to fit the HDTV screen without any black bars. I remember asking about whether they chopped the sides, and someone on these boards said, no, in these cases, to change from 1.85:1 to 1.78:1, they usually show more on top and bottom, not less on the sides. Well, maybe he was wrong: maybe WB indeed chopped some of the sides to get it to 1.78:1. And maybe now, the restoration is attempting to return it to its correct aspect ratio of 1.85:1; we'll know for sure once the disc is released, if we see tiny black bars on top and bottom of the screen. Of course, they'd be very tiny, cuz the difference between 1.85:1 and 1.78:1 is very little. Nevertheless, I hate that they chop it; they should just release all movies in their correct aspect ratios and stop worrying that viewers don't want black bars on the screen. If we are fine with having big bars for 4:3 movies and 2.35:1 movies, why shouldn't we be happy having tiny bars for 1.85:1 movies?

(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w494/chris5522/extnew/frame_zps5ffb5975.jpg~original)

These are captures directly from the BDs done some time ago.

The top image is from WB's 2011 BD and the bottom one is from the Italian extended BD.

The original sizes were 1920 x 1080 but I reduced each one to 960 x 540 to make them more manageable.

I have also shown them against a white background.

It's clear that on WB's 2011 BD, there's slight zooming in which gets rid of the black bars top and bottom.

There's no zooming in on the Italian extended BD, there's extra detail at the sides and the black bars are visible.

I've played both discs on two Blu-ray players, a PS/3 and a LG.  Both players zoom in slightly, so on WB's 2011 BD you get even less picture and in the Italian extended version the black bars and some of the extra detail  are not visible.

I wish the forthcoming extended version had been put on 2 discs but we'll just have to wait until nearer the release date regarding colors, contrast and compression and hope that WB in the U.S. don't commit the same errors and lack of judgment as the Italians.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on June 13, 2014, 04:24:36 PM
I remember asking about whether they chopped the sides, and someone on these boards said, no, in these cases, to change from 1.85:1 to 1.78:1, they usually show more on top and bottom, not less on the sides. Well, maybe he was wrong...

It was me who said that. It was not in reference to this release, but a more general comment. It is correct, but the operative word is "usually" because sometimes, as seems to have been the case here, they do indeed crop slightly to get that 1.78:1 ratio.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 13, 2014, 06:12:04 PM
Also, n_l once said that BRD and DVD players usually zoom a little, only computers show the full image. I guess we see that here, as someone said, the BRD players cropped a little....


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on June 13, 2014, 07:12:53 PM
That's due to your TV. There will be a setting somewhere called "just" or the like, that will ensure that doesn't happen.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on June 14, 2014, 02:05:50 AM
That's due to your TV. There will be a setting somewhere called "just" or the like, that will ensure that doesn't happen.

Novecento is right but the terminology differs from TV to TV and sometimes you have to dig about a lot to find and alter the default settings.

My main TV, a Sony, doesn't have a "just" setting.  The only options are wide, smart and zoom and the black bars disappear in all three.  As long as the aspect ratio is correct e.g. round wheels and normal faces - not long or wide - a slight zooming in doesn't bother me.

There is a further setting on the Sony TV called "Display Area". The default setting is "normal" but if I set this to "Full Pixel" and use the "wide setting" the thin black bars reappear and the aspect ratio looks o.k.

One of my Samsung TVs has a "just scan" setting but it's possibly not a 16:9 screen.  If I use the "just scan" setting I get thin black bars but the aspect ratio is wrong - long faces. If I set it to 16:9, I get the right aspect ratio but even bigger black bars.  

  


Title: DIRECTOR'S CUT
Post by: Derbent 5000 on July 01, 2014, 07:52:17 PM
Hey fellas I am afraid got some bad news about Once Upon A Time In America Extended Version US BD, here what it said on the back cover of the BD.

The newly added 22 minutes of extended scenes bring us closer to Leone original vision of the film, but due to the limited availability of 35mm work prints, the new inserts could not be restored to the same quality as the rest of the film,

that means we going to get same quality of the added scenes as it was released in Italy what a shame, nothing mentioned about color grading color correction.  

there is still 19 minutes missing as Martin Scorsese mentioned other scenes in bad state and restored them takes time, I bet there is going to be another extended version in future.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on July 02, 2014, 02:32:27 AM
The newly added 22 minutes of extended scenes bring us closer to Leone original vision of the film, but due to the limited availability of 35mm work prints, the new inserts could not be restored to the same quality as the rest of the film,
that means we going to get same quality of the added scenes as it was released in Italy what a shame, nothing mentioned about color grading color correction. 
there is still 19 minutes missing as Martin Scorsese mentioned other scenes in bad state and restored them takes time, I bet there is going to be another extended version in future.

I didn't expect any great improvement in the quality of the newly added scenes but I just hope that the forthcoming U.S. release will be better than the Italian Blu-ray.

The 32 page booklet puzzles me.  32 pages are not that much - the booklet in the press release looks much thicker, possibly 300 pages:

http://www.lb2121.webspace.virginmedia.com/images/udzTSxG.jpg (http://www.lb2121.webspace.virginmedia.com/images/udzTSxG.jpg)

(to zoom in click on the .jpg)

  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 02, 2014, 02:51:13 AM
yeah, considering how bad the new scenes looked on the previous BRD, I sort of gave up hope that those scenes could ever look as good as the rest of the movie, at least until new restoration-technology is invented. However, all I can hope for is that A) the new scenes at least look better than they did on the last BRD; and B) they make the original 229 minutes look as good as they possibly can. I'd much rather have a poor-looking 22 minutes and a great-looking 229 minutes, than have a poor 22 minutes and a mediocre 229 minutes in a lame attempt to make the all the scenes look similar. Hopefully, the technology will eventually be available to restore all the missing scenes to perfect condition, but until then, let's try to make each scene look as good as it possibly can, rather than be concerned about making them look equal.


Title: DIRECTOR'S CUT
Post by: Derbent 5000 on July 02, 2014, 07:10:26 AM
here is the BD back cover

(http://s27.postimg.org/h32520keq/udz_TSx_G.jpg)


Title: DIRECTOR'S CUT
Post by: Derbent 5000 on July 02, 2014, 07:17:01 AM
I hope original 35mm negatives of the added scenes, as well maybe rest of the missing scenes out there somewhere, that the only way can be restored from the original 35mm negatives, other wise working with positives that have been already badly preserved just hopeless


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on September 11, 2014, 10:14:11 AM
UK Steelbook, Oct. 27 (presumably everything in the new "Director's Cut" release is included).
(http://images4.static-bluray.com/movies/covers/112732_large.jpg)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on September 11, 2014, 11:20:24 AM
Funny that they write that disc 2 is "theatrical cut" - obviously, it's not the theatrical cut (at least not the American one), it's the 229-minute cut, they should call that the "home video cut" or something like that  ;)

this will be a Day 1 purchase for me.

Yeah, DJ, it finally did come out, I guess my optimism beat your skepticism  :P

I don't have ant great expectations for the quality of the new scenes, having seen many clips already, of course. I can dream that one day they will find negatives of the full missing 45-50 minutes and release a truly Leone-intended version. That's my American dream.

For now, I will look forward to September 30th  :)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: PowerRR on September 21, 2014, 12:17:10 PM
Ordered the big new Blu-Ray set. Coming in next Tuesday... can't wait.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on September 21, 2014, 01:20:53 PM
Ordered the big new Blu-Ray set. Coming in next Tuesday... can't wait.
Rather, a week from Tuesday (the 30th).


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on September 25, 2014, 07:46:08 PM
Unfortunately it sounds like a miracle did not happen:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/334757-a-few-words-about%E2%84%A2-once-upon-a-time-in-america-extended-directors-cut-in-blu-ray/


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on September 26, 2014, 02:30:15 AM
It sounds awful.  >:(

If I read the initial post correctly, the not new scenes in the extended version are drained of color by at least 50% and the theatrical version is the same as WB's 2011 BD  (which I've got twice already).  

But Robert is possibly hinting that his knowledge/expertise on this particular movie is limited and we really need some caps and a proper review from sites such as DVDBeaver or Blu-ray.com.

There's a more detailed review and caps at:

http://www.blu-raydefinition.com/reviews/time-america-extended-directors-cut-blu-ray-review.html (http://www.blu-raydefinition.com/reviews/time-america-extended-directors-cut-blu-ray-review.html)

"This Extended Edition Director’s Cut of Once Upon a Time in America has been scanned in 4K resolution and brought to Blu-ray in an AVC/MPEG-4 1080p encodement from Warner. Generally speaking, it looks gorgeous given the nature of the film, its age, and the various techniques Leone employed. "

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on September 26, 2014, 04:23:26 AM
The good news is that WB's new extended BD may be sharper than WB's 2011 BD and may not have the compression problems of the Italian BD.

To judge properly I'd need to see the whole movie rather than individual scanned frames.

The bad news is that the new extended BD may have a tint.

Some color comparisons:

http://www.lb2121.webspace.virginmedia.com/comp.htm (http://www.lb2121.webspace.virginmedia.com/comp.htm)

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on September 26, 2014, 09:40:47 AM
Man, I hope the "theatrical cut" in the new set is an improvement over the 2011 BD. The extended cut is probably something I'll only watch once, but an improved TC I could watch repeatedly for the rest of my life.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on September 26, 2014, 10:00:33 AM

Some color comparisons:

http://www.lb2121.webspace.virginmedia.com/comp.htm (http://www.lb2121.webspace.virginmedia.com/comp.htm)

 
For the scene with young Noodles and Young Deborah, why has the image from the new Extended Cut been zoomed?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on September 26, 2014, 11:08:22 AM
For the scene with young Noodles and Young Deborah, why has the image from the new Extended Cut been zoomed?

Well spotted but nothing sinister. At this stage I don't have access to the new BD and this scene and also the beach scene cap are not exactly the same frame as the caps I've used before. The position of the two guys between the faces of Deborah and Noodles are slightly different and the beach scene is from a different angle. This comparison is meant to be concerned with colors and tints only and it was the easiest way to do it. Also FIFA 15 arrived in my post today and it demanded my urgent attention. Big improvement on FIFA 13  :)

I've not looked at the caps at blu-raydefinition.com much but the caps are slightly zoomed in or cropped. Some of the extra detail at the sides of the Manhattan bridge scene is missing.

  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on September 27, 2014, 09:35:57 PM
Man, I hope the "theatrical cut" in the new set is an improvement over the 2011 BD. The extended cut is probably something I'll only watch once, but an improved TC I could watch repeatedly for the rest of my life.

I agree.

I mean, if the new scenes would be good quality,  the new version would probably be the version I'd watch for the rest of my life, but if this new version is as bad as I am hearing, I'll probably watch it once and never again. I may watch the new scenes a few times separately, but I wouldn't keep subjecting myself to 251 shitty looking minutes

 :(


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on September 28, 2014, 01:25:42 AM
Man, I hope the "theatrical cut" in the new set is an improvement over the 2011 BD. The extended cut is probably something I'll only watch once, but an improved TC I could watch repeatedly for the rest of my life.

I agree. I mean, if the new scenes would be good quality,  the new version would probably be the version I'd watch for the rest of my life, but if this new version is as bad as I am hearing, I'll probably watch it once and never again. I may watch the new scenes a few times separately, but I wouldn't keep subjecting myself to 251 shitty looking minutes   :(  

Robert Harris at hometheaterforum seems to be saying the 229 min version in the box set is WB's 2011 BD, although he has hinted that his knowledge/expertise on this particular movie is limited:

"The new boxed set is inclusive of the original long version on a separate disc, which is the old, ie. current WB version of the film, with what I perceive to be proper color."

 http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/334757-a-few-words-about%E2%84%A2-once-upon-a-time-in-america-extended-directors-cut-in-blu-ray/ (http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/334757-a-few-words-about%E2%84%A2-once-upon-a-time-in-america-extended-directors-cut-in-blu-ray/)


It seems a bit mean of WB but I suppose it depends at what stage they did the color timing, 4K scan or restoration or transfer to BD, what has been digitally stored and what time, effort and money WB are willing to invest in the project. We should find out for certain in the next couple of days.

 
  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on September 28, 2014, 01:55:23 AM
There's also a review at hometheaterforum from Bob Cashill who saw the extended version at the New York Film Festival yesterday, at the Walter Reade Theater.   Robert De Niro, James Woods, Treat Williams, William Forsythe, and Scott Schutzman Tiler were in attendance:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/334757-a-few-words-about%E2%84%A2-once-upon-a-time-in-america-extended-directors-cut-in-blu-ray/page-2#entry4148296 (http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/334757-a-few-words-about%E2%84%A2-once-upon-a-time-in-america-extended-directors-cut-in-blu-ray/page-2#entry4148296)

Not scientific but he is full of praise for the presentation and the correct colors.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on September 28, 2014, 06:59:16 AM
Thanks, Chris. Here's the crux of his comments:
Quote
I was treated to a gorgeous DCP!

It's not smoothed over, waxy, and grainless. You want a red Big Apple? You get a red Big Apple, not an orange Big Apple, and every other color that Sergio Leone and Tonino Delli Conti intended you to see. I've read of a yellow tint; I did detect a subtle change or shift in color when the movie enters the boyhood scenes (its great strength; so well cast and beautifully done), but it wasn't a "tint," or a color wash, or some other anomaly; if this was something I hadn't seen before, it felt organic, and proper. Unobtrusive.

The restored footage, particularly Louise Fletcher's unnecessary scene, looked and also sounded terrible. No surprise there. Darlanne Fluegel (who gets a new introductory scene in the delicate, latticed time sequencing of events) and Williams (who gets a long or lengthened scene with Woods toward the end, discussing matters easily inferred in the 229m cut) will be pleased, but the rest struck me as superfluous, and given the shape of the materials would have been much better presented as deleted scenes
I was there too, and I concur with everything said above. I'm not sure if the colors are what they were in 1985, but they looked very good, better than what's been available on the previous Blu-ray (Carlo Tafani, the camera operator on the film, is credited with overseeing the look of the new master). The re-inserted footage is a travesty, and should never have been put back in (I blame D&D). If Warner's hasn't done the right thing by giving us the 4K scan of the theatrical cut, then a fan edit will be in order.

One other thing that I have reservations about: some of the Foley seemed dicked around with, especially the gunshots. Maybe it's been that way on previous home video versions, and I'm only noticing now, but it sounded to me like 2014 effects rather than mid-80s.  This only bothered me a couple times. For most of the time I was happy with the sound, really enjoying Morricone's score, almost as if I were hearing it for the first time.

On to Tuesday!


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on September 28, 2014, 11:45:34 AM
so  the 229 minutes look better than ever and the extra scenes look terrible? I.e., they didn't make the 229 minutes look worse just to make it look more like the rest of the scenes?

THEN WHY DID THEY HAVE TO DO THAT ON THE NEW BRD!  >:(

I am surprised that they don't have a newly restored disc of the 229 minute version. After they first showed the new cut at Cannes, and then they pulled the new scenes from circulation and just started showing a restored version of the 229 minutes, remember? They showed it at Film Forum, as discussed in this Time Out article from 2012 which includes a brief Frayling interview http://www.timeout.com/newyork/film/once-upon-a-time-in-america-restored
I remember when this was shown at Film Forum, I think I may have even seen it, not sure.

Point is, there is a 229MV that was restored by Bologna Cinematheque - so wtf wouldn't they release that version as part of this BRD boxset? WTF are they just putting the previously released BRD into the boxset?  >:(


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 03, 2014, 04:30:40 AM
I ordered the new BRD from Amazon, should have it within a few days ...


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on October 03, 2014, 05:45:36 AM
I await your report.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on October 03, 2014, 05:48:14 AM
...Point is, there is a 229MV that was restored by Bologna Cinematheque - so wtf wouldn't they release that version as part of this BRD boxset? WTF are they just putting the previously released BRD into the boxset?  >:(

Pure speculation on my part but I don't think that the BD released in the USA on Sep 30 2014 will be the final version of this movie ever issued.

Not rec'd my combo box set or steelbook yet but several viewers have said that the Extended Director's Cut is better that the Italian extended version and that the theatrical cut is simply a reissue of WB's 2011 BD.  

  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: PowerRR on October 03, 2014, 09:08:08 AM
I watched the extended Blu. quick thoughts:

Definitely a noticeable yellow tint throughout the entire movie. Looks very washed out compared to the 2011 WB. The extra 22-minutes generally look and sound horrible, and really aren't significant enough than just a curiosity. The only part I thought would do the movie a justice is including Noodles faking his drowning to get back at Max after the boatramp. The cut back to the 60's is interesting and also includes a quick glimpse of the infamous garbage truck. The 4 or 5 other deleted scenes are good as individual deleted scenes, but do nothing but hurt the movie. Especially Noodles meeting Eve. It's placed right in the middle of my personal favorite part of the film (Deborah's date to intermission) and really fucks with the natural flow of Noodles standing outside after the rape to the train station. I don't understand why the Eve scenes wouldn't be placed directly after the intermission. Because of that and the tint I'll probably never watch the extended cut again, but its a nice curiosity at least.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on October 03, 2014, 10:13:14 AM
I watched the extended Blu. quick thoughts:

Definitely a noticeable yellow tint throughout the entire movie. Looks very washed out compared to the 2011 WB.

The colors on the new DCP were certainly less vibrant than on the 2011 Blu. I liked the look, though, especially the skin tones.

Quote
The extra 22-minutes generally look and sound horrible, and really aren't significant enough than just a curiosity

Agree

Quote
The only part I thought would do the movie a justice is including Noodles faking his drowning to get back at Max after the boatramp. The cut back to the 60's is interesting and also includes a quick glimpse of the infamous garbage truck.

Yeah, but I don't like the fact that the truck is introduced so early. And it's exactly the same truck (huh? It's permanently parked outside Bailey's mansion?) I think things are spoiled a little for the later scene; the truck is less cool/menacing if we've seen it before.

Quote
The 4 or 5 other deleted scenes are good as individual deleted scenes, but do nothing but hurt the movie. Especially Noodles meeting Eve. It's placed right in the middle of my personal favorite part of the film (Deborah's date to intermission) and really fucks with the natural flow of Noodles standing outside after the rape to the train station. I don't understand why the Eve scenes wouldn't be placed directly after the intermission.
I thought the same. The way it is now, Noodles rapes Deborah, Noodles feels bad about it and goes gets drunk, he gets picked up by Eve, they go have sex (???), Noodles wakes up the next morning and rushes off to see Deborah depart (????????????). As you say, it would make so much more sense to have Noodles meeting Eve AFTER Deborah leaves on the train.

All these scenes should have been included as extras on the disc with the new 4K transfer. Let people choose which version of 229 they prefer, and give them the cut scenes AS cut scenes, and that would have been perfect. If you, I, and Kenny the men's room attendant can figure that out, why can't those cruds at Warners?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 03, 2014, 10:43:46 AM
I haven't yet seen the new version straight, but as I've said before in our (many) discussions about the new scenes, IMO the most important one is the one with Eve. Maybe you disagree with the placement of the scene, that's fine, but that scene is definitely needed. In the 229-minute version, Noodles is mourning the loss of Deborah, and the next thing we know he is not only on the beach with a new girl, Eve, but Max is talking about the heist of a lifetime in front of her (and Carol), knocking off the Federal Reserve. Eve obviously isn't just some babe he met on the beach, they are obviously very close, and there should be the introduction of how he met her. (We have been introduced to Eve early in the movie, so it's not like we haven't seen her before we see her on the beach, but those scenes at the beginning of the movie are chronologically taking place after the beach scene, of course, so IMO an introduction to Eve is warranted.

As to whether it is placed properly, and whether it is worthwhile having it in the movie considering how bad the quality is, that I can't say until I watch the full movie, once my BRD arrives in a few days.

Anyway, it's unbelievable that they find negatives from so many much earlier movies (e.g. they found the 3 cut minutes from A Streetcar Named Desire 20 years go), but a movie from 1984 doesn't have a negative in existence?   :(


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: PowerRR on October 03, 2014, 11:07:56 AM
I haven't yet seen the new version straight, but as I've said before in our (many) discussions about the new scenes, IMO the most important one is the one with Eve. Maybe you disagree with the placement of the scene, that's fine, but that scene is definitely needed.
As to whether it is placed properly, and whether it is worthwhile having it in the movie considering how bad the quality is, that I can't say until I watch the full movie, once my BRD arrives in a few days.
True. It's the most important added scene, but the placement is shit. For being 2 or 3 minutes long, I don't quite understand why Leone cut it.

Anyway, it's unbelievable that they find negatives from so many much earlier movies (e.g. they found the 3 cut minutes from A Streetcar Named Desire 20 years go), but a movie from 1984 doesn't have a negative in existence?   :(
Scorsese and the Film Foundation are operating a scheme directly targeted toward the Leone board, where they will release "new extended directors cuts" of OUATIA, minute-by-minute added and restored every few years, to steal our money for years after the death of the eldest members. only I will see the full cut in 2078


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on October 03, 2014, 12:02:44 PM
I don't think that I really need most of the new scenes. Actually I would like to make the film shorter as it already drags. ;)

The new scene with Eve is probably good in itself, but as I never asked myself where Noodles met Eve, and as I never had the impression that there is something missing (cause Eve is only a comparatively unimportant secondary character), the scene could only be important for the movie when it tells us something interesting about Noodles.

What OUTA needs is maybe the scene with Treat Williams, cause that was a character where I asked myself why he did not appear again after he was seen in the news.



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 03, 2014, 01:36:24 PM

Scorsese and the Film Foundation are operating a scheme directly targeted toward the Leone board, where they will release "new extended directors cuts" of OUATIA, minute-by-minute added and restored every few years, to steal our money for years after the death of the eldest members. only I will see the full cut in 2078

now you are sounding like DJ.

Maybe I am naive, but I would hope that Martin Scorsese – if nobody else – actually does care about film preservation for its own sake and wouldn't hold out on new footage if he actually has it, just so that he could release more of it in a few years and make money again.

Scorsese did mention in an interview that (as we already know from STDWD) there are another 25 minutes or so that Leone intended should be in the film. Wasn't clear why they didn't add the whole 45 minutes in – do they not have those other 25 minutes (even in the crappy form that they have these 22 minutes) or are they holding out to sell a new BRD in a few years?
I would hope that they aren't holding out on us ... on the other hand, that option – bad as it is – is better than the other option, which is that they don't even have those other 25 minutes at all. I would hope/assume that those other 25 minutes are indeed around somewhere, in some crappy form.
Yeah, that's the ultimate dream, to get the full approx. 45 minutes that Leone wanted, the running time of approx. 4.5 hours


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on October 12, 2014, 01:52:18 AM
On Roger Ebert's site there's a recent interview with Treat Williams and William Forsythe about the restored version and their memories of working with Leone:

http://www.rogerebert.com/demanders/america-the-beautiful-treat-williams-and-william-forsythe-remember-sergio-leone-and-once-upon-a-time-in-america (http://www.rogerebert.com/demanders/america-the-beautiful-treat-williams-and-william-forsythe-remember-sergio-leone-and-once-upon-a-time-in-america)

Treat Williams mentions that Martin Sheen auditioned but didn't get a part whilst Mickey Rourke was around at the time complaining "I can’t even get a meeting!". He's full of praise for De Niro and gives an insight into Leone's way of working.

e.g. "Working with Sergio, who was so kind but also so rough. There was one actor, a guy you just couldn’t scare if you tried, he had to show fear at a moment. Sergio had the prop guy hand him a tommy gun and he screamed ‘Action’ and opened up the tommy gun. The actor was so startled. The shot worked."

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on October 12, 2014, 07:49:31 AM

Treat Williams mentions that Martin Sheen auditioned but didn't get a part whilst Mickey Rourke was around at the time complaining "I can’t even get a meeting!". He's full of praise for De Niro and gives an insight into Leone's way of working.

e.g. "Working with Sergio, who was so kind but also so rough. There was one actor, a guy you just couldn’t scare if you tried, he had to show fear at a moment. Sergio had the prop guy hand him a tommy gun and he screamed ‘Action’ and opened up the tommy gun. The actor was so startled. The shot worked."
I think the machine gun quote is actually from Forsythe.

Here's the Williams quote I most enjoyed:
Quote
“I have to tell you, that gasoline hose with which I’m being doused as the young version of my character is introduced: that hose had been very, very recently used…as a gasoline hose! As Cary Grant used to write in sections of his scripts, ‘N.A.R.’ ‘No Acting Required.’ Oh my goodness. It was just foul.”

Thanks very much for posting the link, Chris. I loved reading that article. O0


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 12, 2014, 05:18:19 PM
I got the BRD ... I skipped around a little; eventually I'll watch the whole thing straight, but I assume that whoever is interested in a report already has whatever report they need from what's been written by those who have seen it ...


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on October 13, 2014, 08:14:58 AM
I've now had a quick look at the new combo box set.  My first impression was that both versions of the movie looked better than my memories of the previous versions.  

The 32 page booklet is o.k. but doesn't contain anything new as far as I could see and the letter from Scorsese is the same as the letter in the press kit when the Italian Extended Edition was announced.

The 229 minute BD is to all intents and purposes the same as that issued by WB in 2011.

Menus and scene/chapter selection in the new Extended Director's Cut seems better than that on the Italian Extended Edition.

Both extended versions have a similar color tint.



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on October 13, 2014, 09:09:06 AM
Thanks, chris. The 2011 BD is, for now, the way to go. I'll stay pat.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: rot66 on October 20, 2014, 09:08:38 PM
If anyone wonders, like I did but bought it anyway, the new US Collector's Edition supposed to be region A does seem to be "All Region". At least if worked fine on my region B BR player.


Tor


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: mike siegel on October 25, 2014, 05:05:24 AM
I have it too now. Leone, the master of quality cinema - I have 243 Blu-ray's by now, only for three discs I have to adjust the color settings of my TV set, all three being Leone titles. How embarrassing.   


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on October 28, 2014, 10:10:43 AM
Wow for a late adopter of the BD technology, you sure did amass quite a collection quickly!

I saw the one-disc edition in Barnes & Noble (book store) the other day for $13.99. I couldn't resist so bought a copy. Now it's just a question of finding the time to watch it.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: mike siegel on October 30, 2014, 02:59:38 AM
Wow for a late adopter of the BD technology, you sure did amass quite a collection quickly!

I saw the one-disc edition in Barnes & Noble (book store) the other day for $13.99. I couldn't resist so bought a copy.

I supply a lot of labels worldwide with images, docs and booklets... that explains it I suppose :).

I bought the 2-disc Blu-ray in Germany for €11.- the other day - I couldn't resist either with that price attached to it...
Next to KILLING FIELDS it is my favorite film of the 80s. The 'new' footage looks bad, that's true. I'm gonna
watch it once I suppose. I can't imagine the 'new' cut will have a tremendous impact on me since from a creative
film making point of view the European theatrical version is pretty much perfect. Also I'd rather would have seen addtitional
scenes of those early sequences (the boy gang & Jennifer). Anyway, the colors don't bother me much (since I adjust
my TV set to get rid of too much yellow), but cropped images I loath.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 30, 2014, 05:06:01 AM
I supply a lot of labels worldwide with images, docs and booklets... that explains it I suppose :).

I bought the 2-disc Blu-ray in Germany for €11.- the other day - I couldn't resist either with that price attached to it...
Next to KILLING FIELDS it is my favorite film of the 80s. The 'new' footage looks bad, that's true. I'm gonna
watch it once I suppose. I can't imagine the 'new' cut will have a tremendous impact on me since from a creative
film making point of view the European theatrical version is pretty much perfect. Also I'd rather would have seen addtitional
scenes of those early sequences (the boy gang & Jennifer). Anyway, the colors don't bother me much (since I adjust
my TV set to get rid of too much yellow), but cropped images I loath.


I agree that having a cropped image is unforgivable, but I wonder  – and this is complete speculation, I am just asking – if it may have to do with the slight difference in aspect ratio of the movie and HDTV's:  HDTV's are 1.78:1, while the movie is very-slightly0wider 1.85:1 Since they are very close, the studio perhaps decided that rather than having tiny black bars on top and bottom, they'll just show a little less on the sides.... or possibly show a little more on top and bottom. So one version chose one way and another version chose another, and pretty soon you get these discrepancies with one version having more information in the frame om one side, and another version having more on another, etc.. When there is a huge difference (e.g. 1.33:1 or 2.35:1) then they'll just have the fat black bars on the sides or the top/bottom. But if they decide it's just a minor difference between 1.78:1 and 1.85:1, they get stupid and decide that a minor cropping won't hurt anybody.
Again, this is just a guess; I really don't know anything about it.

Then again, different versions of DVD/BRD's often have different amounts of information in the frame, even when I don't think there is any discrepancy in aspect ratio - even for old movies which are all in one of the 4:3 aspect ratios; I presume that the various BRD versions are all the same aspect ratio, but still various versions have different amounts of information in the frame. There are many examples, but here are two: look at beaver's screencap comparisons for the two BRD versions of:
 Double Indemnity http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film4/blu-ray_reviews_63/double_indemnity_blu-ray.htm
 Casablanca http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film3/blu-ray_reviews56/casablanca_blu-ray.htm
the two BRD versions clearly have different information in the frame  – often, one version can have more info on top/bottom, while another version can have more on one side or the other – and it is really maddening for a serious film fan. Even if it's just a tiny portion of the frame and you wouldn't notice it without scrutinizing screencap comparisons ... it's just maddening for a purist to know that one version is cropped


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on October 30, 2014, 08:34:21 AM
... Next to KILLING FIELDS it is my favorite film of the 80s...

Tlaking of Roland Joffe, here's the trailer for his extremely delayed latest project:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvZdMPVVrIY


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on November 06, 2014, 06:25:21 PM
So here’s my take on the extra footage.

Noodles chats with cemetery director
Not strictly necessary. However, Noodles’ noting of the license plate ties in with the car explosion below. Perhaps the cutting of this scene partially explains the cutting of the below scene whose excision is otherwise a real loss to the picture.

Gang in water / car explosion
Absolutely essential. The whole thing is shot and edited beautifully with a wonderful visual transition between the two time periods. Furthermore the introduction of the garbage truck helps with storyline continuity by linking with the end of the film. This should never have been cut.

Noodles chats with chauffeur
Not necessary.

Noodles meets Eve at Moe's place / Deborah in station cafe
The beginning introducing Eve is essential for the storyline; the end with Deborah drinking in the cafe is essential for stylistic continuity and is a really beautiful little shot; the sex scene in the middle is unnecessary. After Noodles gets up to leave Moe’s speakeasy with Eve and asks if he can call her Deborah, there should have been a cut directly to Deborah in the cafe. This would have tied together the two of them drinking their sorrows away (Noodles at the bar, Deborah in the cafe) with Noodles’ mention of Deborah allowing a verbal link to accompany the visual. Unfortunately the sex scene between Noodles and Eve between these two scenes does not allow for this continuity.

Deborah as Cleopatra
Not necessary

Elderly O’Donnell meets with Bailey/Max
Not necessary


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on November 07, 2014, 12:18:56 PM
I like all the additional scenes.

And if the unreleased 19 minutes can be reinserted and the color sorted out, I'll be happy.  :)

  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on November 07, 2014, 01:38:47 PM

Elderly O’Donnell meets with Bailey/Max
Not necessary
It actually hurts the picture, it's so boring. It extends the time we spend in Bailey's study (not the most interesting place) and thus diminishes Noodles eventual arrival. It also gives us more time to study the defects in Woods' makeup. The confrontation between Bailey and Noodles is the more interesting exchange anyway; we need to get to it as soon as we can.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: PowerRR on November 07, 2014, 05:24:47 PM
Yeah the extended cut sucks. Waste of $25. It's like spending money to watch an ugly, yellow piece of shit with 22 minutes of even shittier shit.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on November 08, 2014, 02:26:39 AM
But that O'Donnel does not resurface towards the end of the film was always one of my minor complaints. It made the character too redundant, and it felt wrong. Without this last scene it would have been better not to show him on the 68 time level.

But then I haven't watched the scene itself so far.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 09, 2014, 01:40:28 AM
But that O'Donnel does not resurface towards the end of the film was always one of my minor complaints. It made the character too redundant, and it felt wrong. Without this last scene it would have been better not to show him on the 68 time level.

But then I haven't watched the scene itself so far.

whether or not they had restored that scene with O'Donnell in Bailey's study, it was absolutely necessary for that 229MV to show the scene of O'Donnell in 1968 on the tv in Fat Moe's. That tv report is the first indication (and I believe the only indication, until Noodles mentions it to Deborah in her dressing room at the end) that Noodles's return has something to do with this probe into Bailey and the union-pension-fund scandal. (This is especially true in the 229MV, which cut out the scene of the elderly Noodles seeing the car at the cemetery and then seeing the same car blow up at Bailey's mansion). If they hadn't shown that tv report, then I believe there would be no mention of Bailey until Noodles talks to Deborah in her dressing room at the end. That would - in my humble, respectful, polite opinion - make zero sense.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on November 09, 2014, 04:03:27 AM
whether or not they had restored that scene with O'Donnell in Bailey's study, it was absolutely necessary for that 229MV to show the scene of O'Donnell in 1968 on the tv in Fat Moe's. That tv report is the first indication (and I believe the only indication, until Noodles mentions it to Deborah in her dressing room at the end) that Noodles's return has something to do with this probe into Bailey and the union-pension-fund scandal. (This is especially true in the 229MV, which cut out the scene of the elderly Noodles seeing the car at the cemetery and then seeing the same car blow up at Bailey's mansion). If they hadn't shown that tv report, then I believe there would be no mention of Bailey until Noodles talks to Deborah in her dressing room at the end. That would - in my humble, respectful, polite opinion - make zero sense.

There were other options to mention Bailey without showing O'Donnel.

This is the usual problem of making films shorter than intended. One missing scene hurts other scenes or creates other problems for the ongoing film.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on November 09, 2014, 09:44:23 AM
There were other options to mention Bailey without showing O'Donnel.

This is the usual problem of making films shorter than intended. One missing scene hurts other scenes or creates other problems for the ongoing film.
But this is the ongoing Story of Sergio. Not only is missing info a problem with his completed films that were later cut, he kept having to do reshoots during production in order to cover material missing from scenes he decided not to film. One thinks of the confusing info Half Soldier gives Angel Eyes in GBU. And let's not even go into the topic of OUATITW.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on November 09, 2014, 09:56:20 AM
But in OUTW it worked very well. The visible scars of Harmonica's beating are no problem at all, and apart fro the scene in which Fonda was shaves i#m more than glad that all the other known stuff of the screenplay is gone.

And what's wrong with the half soldier? I like it the way it is.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 09, 2014, 08:09:53 PM
The half-soldier dialogue in English is indeed confusing. As DJ says, it was looped in there to explain about the cash box since another scene explaining that was later cut (not sure if it was ever filmed).
Also, in OUATIA, the scene of elderly Noodles visiting Carol in the nursing home, Carol's opening dialogue ("Max fooled us all ...") is looped in there as well - you don't see Carol speaking these lines, it's a bunch of shots of the nrsing home, as I recall - to cover info that was part of cut scenes.
I always would have liked to see the missing scenes from that nursing home (still not available, even in the new extended version). I always thought that the sudden appearance of elderly Carol, and the juxtaposition with elderly Deborah, was confusing. (though i guess the latter is explained now with the restoration of the scene of Deborah acting Shakespeare).


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Cusser on November 10, 2014, 06:58:20 AM
The half-soldier dialogue in English is indeed confusing. As DJ says, it was looped in there to explain about the cash box since another scene explaining that was later cut (not sure if it was ever filmed).

Not sure that Half-soldier's dialogue is confusing...


...but maybe his mind was on the upcoming whiskey...


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on November 10, 2014, 12:11:57 PM
Yes, it's hardly confusing. The scene gives some information so that the film can go on. Fits the purpose perfectly.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on November 10, 2014, 12:14:01 PM
Not sure that Half-soldier's dialogue is confusing...
The first time through? I'm not talking about after having seen the film a thousand times like everyone here has. I'm talking about showing the film to a complete newbie and charting his reaction. If he's part of the RR Power cohort, he'll be confused.

Add to this the fact that whatever the original dialog was is now lost to us forever. Maybe there was some choice stuff there . . .


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on November 10, 2014, 07:38:56 PM
Yes, it's hardly confusing. The scene gives some information so that the film can go on. Fits the purpose perfectly.

I agree.

In fact, the only scene in any of Leone's movies that I find confusing is the Aschenbach scene in Duck You Sucker.




Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 10, 2014, 08:34:51 PM
I agree.

In fact, the only scene in any of Leone's movies that I find confusing is the Aschenbach scene in Duck You Sucker.


I definitely found that Aschenbach scene with the dynamite confusing. It still feels like there may be a scene before that that's missing.
First Juan destroy's Sean's ride, in an attempt to make him work with him ... then Sean is passed out drunk and suddenly Juan is there and there is dynamite and boom! Sean's boss is dead? Weird scene.

It's no coincidence that the two Leone movies which don't have any of these problems are FOD and FAFDM – the two movies which weren't cut by distributors or exhibitors, and the two shortest Leone movies. (And I'm talking about the six movies he is famous for directing; I know someone is gonna try to mention COR or MNIN.)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on November 11, 2014, 02:29:49 AM
There is indeed a scene missing before the Aschenbach scene, but that does not alter the part about Aschenbach. The only difference is that Mallory is now slightly disorientated while drunk, whereas in the screenplay it was due to dehydration. Otherwise the scene is the same.
But I can understand why this scene may confuse people, but it does not happen necessarily.

If there is a film which is partly confusing than it is FAFDM. Indio does a lot of confusing things, and some cannot explained by his madness sufficiently.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: DJASh on November 30, 2014, 04:42:32 AM
So, is this new cut worth buying?

OUATIA is my favourite film of all time, so on that level I feel obliged to buy it...

On the other hand there seem to be criticisms of the print quality...?

I also often find that Directors Cut versions of cherished films can be disappointing, diluting the perfect version with which I'm so familiar. New scenes can seem like unecesssary clutter, or even alter the whole tone of a film.

Any thoughts welcome, amigos...


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on November 30, 2014, 05:34:58 AM
Why ask and not try instead if you like the film? You can get it pretty cheap, so you cannot lose much if you don't like every aspect of the disc.

I haven't bought it yet, even if it was already beneath 10 €. But I'm not in a hurry.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: SimRob on January 31, 2015, 05:11:50 AM
So, is this new cut worth buying?

OUATIA is my favourite film of all time, so on that level I feel obliged to

It is worth getting. The new scenes are great. Their quality is not good, and it's jarring to suddenly see scenes of lower picture quality. I hope in the future the scenes are restored seamlessly, and last I heard, they are trying to do that. But that might take a while and you should see those scenes, particularly as it's your favourite film.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: PowerRR on February 15, 2015, 09:35:26 PM
So, is this new cut worth buying?

OUATIA is my favourite film of all time, so on that level I feel obliged to buy it...

On the other hand there seem to be criticisms of the print quality...?

It's also my favorite film, and I will never watch the extended cut again.

Rent it.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Nawroz on March 13, 2015, 11:08:40 AM
Hi Everyone,

Can anyone tell me the latest on the future of this film? will there be anything else after the 25e extra minutes added? I heard that even with the 25 minutes included it was pulled pending further work?

Regards,


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on March 16, 2015, 04:18:20 AM
Hi Everyone,

Can anyone tell me the latest on the future of this film? will there be anything else after the 25e extra minutes added? I heard that even with the 25 minutes included it was pulled pending further work?

Regards,

Hi Nawroz,

Personally I've not seen anything.

WB seem to make announcements only when there is something definite to report, I've not seen anything worthwhile on the Italian forums and the Leone family seem to be quiet at the moment.  Gustavo van Peteghem from Andrea Leone Films used to answer emails but he may well not work for the Leones anymore.  Some of the reports about further work may have been just speculation.

Vast sums of money were spent on the restoration but the results were disappointing and I wouldn't expect the Leone family to have much appetite for spending large sums of money on further work.  People outside the immediate family need to have more influence and involvement but whether there is sufficient will or demand remains to be seen.



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on April 20, 2015, 01:39:07 AM
A post on another board mentions that in the teaser trailer on the extended blu-ray there's a shot of Tuesday Weld on the floor exposing her legs and some very nice black stockings, which doesn't appear in the movie.

I've never seen this before and thought it must be a joke but it is correct.

It just reminds me that we really need those missing 19 minutes, whatever state they're in.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: titoli on July 07, 2015, 04:21:44 AM
http://www.repubblica.it/spettacoli/cinema/2015/07/06/news/sergio_leone_c_era_una_volta_in_america_proiezione_prima-118456020/?ref=HREC1-36

A résumé of the various versions.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Ronin on November 16, 2015, 12:03:55 PM
Anyone think the Special Edition Blu Ray with the booklet will come back in print in the US? Currently listed on Amazon for  $179.00.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on November 17, 2015, 01:59:52 AM
I think 20th Century Fox now handle distribution:

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Once-Upon-a-Time-in-America-Blu-ray/135040/ (http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Once-Upon-a-Time-in-America-Blu-ray/135040/)

The description says it includes both cuts.  Although I am a fan of the movie, I'm not sure that there's anything particularly ground breaking in the booklet.
   


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on November 17, 2015, 08:11:29 AM
I bought the single BD extended cut as the old cut on the second disc was identical to the previous BD.

What I'm now waiting to see is the remaining scenes that still haven't been included. A seamless branching BD would probably be best for that so you can choose how to watch without switching discs etc... unless the color/contrast changes really get to you.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Ronin on November 17, 2015, 09:35:11 AM
True, about the booklet. It looked nice though.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on November 26, 2015, 10:16:42 AM
It's been reported on another forum that the versions distributed by Fox are Region A restricted.
  

The back page of the Blu-ray insert appears to confirm this.

  

(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w494/chris5522/slwb/back1_zpso7kaksyl.jpg~original)


  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 26, 2015, 07:16:26 PM
I bought the single BD extended cut as the old cut on the second disc was identical to the previous BD.

What I'm now waiting to see is the remaining scenes that still haven't been included. A seamless branching BD would probably be best for that so you can choose how to watch without switching discs etc... unless the color/contrast changes really get to you.

Yeah, that is the ultimate dream, to have the extra 20 or so minutes added in, for a total running time of about 4 1/2 hours, which was Leone's ultimate preferred version. And with good image quality 😀


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on November 27, 2015, 08:28:05 AM
Yeah, that is the ultimate dream, to have the extra 20 or so minutes added in, for a total running time of about 4 1/2 hours, which was Leone's ultimate preferred version. And with good image quality 😀
That was his preferred cut for the projected TV version that never happened. There's no way he wanted a theatrical release that went that long.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 28, 2015, 04:26:15 PM
I wasn't there. 1984 was the year I was born.
But Frayling says that to get down to 3:47, Leone "very reluctantly" had to remove about 45 mins. of "significant" material. Leone's preferred version, if you believe Frayling, was around 4.5 hours.
If you doubt that Leone wanted a theatrical film that long, remember that Leone initially wanted an even bigger, two-part film, but had to abandon those plans cuz the studio was afraid after the failure of "1900."

Maybe Frayling is wrong. Maybe. But I'd trust his info RE: OUATIA even more than on the other movies. By that time, Frayling had already met Leone; that chapter on OUATIA seems to have more info than that of the other movies.

Maybe you think the 3:47 version is the ideal version. But I don't see a reason to doubt that Leone preferred the extra 45 minutes. Among those scenes (some of which were added back recently by Scorsese and some not (yet) ) contain important info for the narrative. Particularly the scenes with Eve. In the 3:47 version she appears out of nowhere and they're ccomfortable enough to discuss business in front of her. Also the scene with elderly Carol is pretty confusing in the 3:47 version; the fuller version explains that.
And how Noodles realizes his return is connected with Secretary Bailey's troubles - only in the longer version do we realize that it is because Noodles saw the limo that was tailing him at the cemetery blow up outside Bailey's estate.
I can certainly see why Leone considered this "significant material."




Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on November 28, 2015, 06:58:29 PM
If you doubt that Leone wanted a theatrical film that long, remember that Leone initially wanted an even bigger, two-part film, but had to abandon those plans cuz the studio was afraid after the failure of "1900."

Yes - I'd always thought Bertolucci's 1900 was where Leone found the idea for having it in two parts.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on November 28, 2015, 10:11:09 PM
I wasn't there. 1984 was the year I was born.
But Frayling says that to get downn to 3:47, Leone "very reluctantly" had to remove about 45 mins. of "significant" material. Leone's preferred version, if you believe Frayling, was around 4.5 hours.
If you doubt that Leone wanted a theatrical film that long, remember that Leone initially wanted an even bigger, two-part film, but had to abandon those plans cuz the studio was afraid after the failure of "1900."

Maybe Frayling is wrong. Maybe. But I'd trust his info RE: OUATIA even more than on the other movies. By that time, Frayling had already met Leone; that chapter on OUATIA seems to have more info than that of the other movies.

Maybe you think the 3:47 version is the ideal version. But I don't see a reason to doubt that Leone preferred the extra 45 minutes. Among those scenes (some of which were added back recently by Scorsese and some not (yet) ) contain important info for the narrative. Particularly the scenes with Eve. In the 3:47 version she appears out of nowhere and they're ccomfortable enough to discuss business in front of her. Also the scene with elderly Carol is pretty confusing in the 3:47 version; the fuller version explains that.
And how Noodles realizes his return is connected with Secretary Bailey's troubles - only in longer version do we realize that it is because Noodles saw the limo that was tailing him at the cemetery blow up outside Bailey's estate.
I can certainly see why Leone considered this "significant material."




Deep down, directors always prefer the longer versions. They worked so much on every line of dialogue, with the actors, the screenwriters, the cameramen... Cutting a shot is painful. Don't believe them. Listen to the editor. He's the guy who knows what story is supposed to be told. Because he wasn't on the set. Because it's his (only) job.

Everything that isn't linked to any on set problem (no time to do this so we did a cheaper version, actor who cannot tell his lines...) is "significant material". Hours have been spent for a line to be written this way. For the actor to tell it this way. For the frame, the lighting to hit this this way. "Significant material" is a meaningless term because everything that was done on set was "significant".


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on November 29, 2015, 07:24:44 AM
Possibly 2 versions of the movie can co-exist happily and hopefully the extended version can be further improved to be nearer to Leone's vision regarding colors, image quality and duration.

Sergio Leone and his son Andrea have both stated that Leone originally made a four and a half hour (270 mins) movie and 50 minutes were cut.  In addition to significant material and explaining things more clearly, the cut scenes expanded on Noodles' relationship with women ("Déjà au découpage j'avais dû réduire beaucoup ce qui, dans le film, concerne les rapports avec les femmes.").  Some viewers of the 229 min movie feel that Noodles is a sad individual but the book portrays him differently as a well-liked person admired by both men and women with lots of money and women and a liking for food and drink.

In 1984 Leone regretted making the cuts but by 1988 the 229 min version seemed to be his preferred cut.  Possibly he was putting a brave face on it or perhaps the addition of an extra 9 minutes or so including "une scène d'amour avec Deborah petite fille" addressed some of his misgivings with the 220 min version.

Leone: "This one (229 min cut) is my version.  The other explained things more clearly and it could have been done on TV in two or three parts.  But the version I prefer is this one, that bit of reclusiveness is just what I like about it."

(Leone's interview with Oreste De Fornari in 1988)

Leone was a perhaps a bit naive or optimistic regarding a four and a half hour (270 mins) version.

Leone: It's a complicated story.  They (the Ladd company) gave me carte blanche to do four and a half hours with the idea that it would be made in two parts, that is to say two films coming out together.

But four months after the start of editing ("quatre mois après le debut du montage"), they said to me no, it is not possible, because in the U.S., that's what they told me, I do not know if it is the truth, a sequel cannot come out less than three months after the first part, for competitive reasons, because operators are not necessarily the same for both parts.

If it were possible for both parts to be released simultaneously, it would result in unfair competition from operators who have a single theater. It therefore seems that some operators cannot handle a double distribution.  They demanded that I cut the film.

I cut as much as I could and I arrived at the 3 hours 40 min (220 min) version which you have seen.

(Cahiers Du Cinema No. 359 dated May 1984)



Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on November 29, 2015, 09:38:37 AM
He also stated somewhere else that the 2 parts idea was abandoned when 1900 flopped. He said many things at different times, like you said yourself. In the end, I think the "truth" on the topic doesn't even exist since these decisions have been made while the movie was still in the cutting room. They were still creating it. The same cannot be said of the 2 hours version, which is ulterior.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on November 29, 2015, 11:02:57 AM
He also stated somewhere else that the 2 parts idea was abandoned when 1900 flopped. He said many things at different times, like you said yourself. In the end, I think the "truth" on the topic doesn't even exist since these decisions have been made while the movie was still in the cutting room. They were still creating it. The same cannot be said of the 2 hours version, which is ulterior.

As stated in my previous post Leone said in the Cahiers interview in 1984:

"They (the Ladd company) gave me carte blanche to do four and a half hours with the idea that it would be made in two parts, that is to say two films coming out together.

But four months after the start of editing ("quatre mois après le debut du montage"), they said to me no, it is not possible."

This indicates to me that Leone didn't know that the Ladd Company would find a 270 min version unacceptable until 4 months after the start of editing.

4 months editing a movie sounds like a long time to me and I would be surprised if by that time little progess had been made in achieving Leone's vision for the movie.

Of course prior to Milchan becoming involved, Leone had agreed a deal with Grimaldi who insisted on changes being made, including the duration.  From Simsolo's book;

Leone: "He (Grimaldi) was very eager to produce the film.  But there was the success of Last Tango in Paris by Bertolucci. Then there were big failures like 1900 and Casanova by Fellini.

This last film was a financial disaster.  The coup de grace for Grimaldi.  He hoped that my film would get him out of this impasse.

He changed our plans.  He did not want to have two parts as for 1900.  He panicked too because he had lost the support of major companies.  Everything was going very badly.

I wanted to break our agreement and get back the rights to the book.  He refused.  There were lawsuits.  It was long.  More than three years during which I kept on working on the project.

Other producers were interested.  Finally, thanks to Yves Gasser, I met Arnon Milchan..."
 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on November 29, 2015, 01:57:29 PM

This indicates to me that Leone didn't know that the Ladd Company would find a 270 min version unacceptable until 4 months after the start of editing.

4 months editing a movie sounds like a long time to me and I would be surprised if by that time little progess had been made in achieving Leone' vision for the movie.


I think you'd be surprised. 4 months of editing would be a regular duration for a 120 minutes movie, which is not what we're talking about here. If I had to guess I would say they were right in the middle of it, which means something like a 6 hours rough cut which would include some finished scenes. But I'm just randomly guessing. I don't know a lot about editing a 35mm feature film in the 80's.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on November 29, 2015, 02:28:57 PM
Weren't the now new scenes not already more or less finished?. Wasn't there a kind of a 270 min version from which the new scenes were taken. Not a completely ready version, but at least one the restorers could work from without completely guessing how the new scenes should be cut?

I own the Blu, but actually I never watched the whole new footage of this already overlong film.

For me the 229 min version will remain the real Leone deal anyway.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 29, 2015, 05:51:39 PM
I think you'd be surprised. 4 months of editing would be a regular duration for a 120 minutes movie, which is not what we're talking about here. If I had to guess I would say they were right in the middle of it, which means something like a 6 hours rough cut which would include some finished scenes. But I'm just randomly guessing. I don't know a lot about editing a 35mm feature film in the 80's.

Frayling actually  says there was 6 to 10 hours of  usable footage, from which ( after having to abandon his plans for a two-part movie) Leone  made his preferred 4.5-hour version, which he later reluctantly cut down to 3:47


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on November 30, 2015, 02:55:46 AM
Frayling actually  says there was 6 to 10 hours of  usable footage, from which ( after having to abandon his plans for a two-part movie) Leone  made his preferred 4.5-hour version, which he later reluctantly cut down to 3:47

These quotes are often mistakable, cause they often refer to rough cuts, which are often twice as long as the final edit.

And the correct runtime is still 229 min or 3:49 hours. That's how the film was released unless censorial cuts were made in some countries.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on November 30, 2015, 04:23:04 AM
Listen to Stanton. He's always right.
Except when he's talking about French stuff.
Or about The Lady From Shanghai.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: dave jenkins on November 30, 2015, 09:11:10 AM
Leone  made his preferred 4.5-hour version, which he later reluctantly cut down to 3:47
which he later called his "preferred version"


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on November 30, 2015, 12:23:38 PM
Weren't the new scenes not already more or less finished?. Wasn't there a kind of a 270 min version from which the new scenes were taken...

For me definitely yes although some would disagree.

When news broke regarding the imminent release of the extended version, it was stressed that the exact start and end points of each additional piece were written down and there was no guesswork.  It was also stated that unfortunately the negatives for these scenes no longer exist and the only materials available were discarded strips of working positives.  These had been badly preserved and had not been printed with particular care, as originally they were part of the working copies which circulated between the assistant editors and sound editors as a work reference.

We were promised an additional 26 minutes but in fact new edits have been made to these reducing the duration of the additional scenes to less than 22 minutes.

Some confusion arises regarding the word inediti.  This is the plural of the Italian word inedito and means unpublished or unreleased.  It is sometimes incorrectly translated as unedited.  Leone uses the word montage to describe editing.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

My main issues with the extended 251 min version:

Color tint throughout with no whites

Lack of contrast and poor blacks

Compression artifacts

19 minutes missing from Leone's original version

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

My main issues with the 229 min version:

Some parts are not pin sharp

41 minutes missing from Leone's original version

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Possibly the extended version is very slightly sharper but for me there are too many flaws with the 251 min version to unreservedly recommend it.  However if the color and image quality could be sorted out and the missing 19 minutes inserted, I would undoubtedly opt for the extended version even if the quality of the additional scenes was not as good as the rest of the movie.

For obvious reasons we can only surmise what Leone would have thought of the 251 minute version.


 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on November 30, 2015, 03:43:06 PM
Listen to Stanton. He's always right.
Except when he's talking about French stuff.
Or about The Lady From Shanghai.

That's a bit exaggerated, only a bit, and a bit unfair in case of the French part. Actually I don't know much about Quantum Physics and Cranberry Sauce either.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on November 30, 2015, 03:58:41 PM
Actually I don't know much about Quantum Physics and Cranberry Sauce either.

You lack self confidence, Stanton. I trust you.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on November 30, 2015, 04:24:24 PM
Self - what?

Whatever, as compensation I know a lot about Quantum of Solace, and solace seems to be more important as physics. With solace we all wait for the perfect versions of most Leones, but the apparent physical reality always betrays us.
Lil' fuckers ...


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 30, 2015, 05:12:39 PM
These quotes are often mistakable, cause they often refer to rough cuts, which are often twice as long as the final edit.

And the correct runtime is still 229 min or 3:49 hours. That's how the film was released unless censorial cuts were made in some countries.

Maybe 3:49 not 3:47, my bad

I remember a big debate someone had ( was it you?) with the board member ONCE over whether there was a 220-minute version. Then one day, ONCE just canceled his acct. and all his posts disappeared, too  ;D


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 30, 2015, 05:23:13 PM
which he later called his "preferred version"

 perhaps he later decided the 3:49 version was better. Perhaps he was, as  mentioned above, putting a brave face on it. At that point, perhaps there was no hope for the  4 1/2 hour version, so  he was trying to "sell" 3:47 the version is much as possible. Who knows.
What we do know, if Frayling is correct,  is that at the time of the movie's release, Leone wanted the 4 1/2 hour version.  Therefore,I would like to have that version. And I would like to have the 3:49 version as well. Then everyone can watch whatever he/ she prefers.

Was it ever explain why the " new" version is only 251 minutes? Did they not have the other half hour or so even in that bad quality?


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on December 01, 2015, 02:09:38 AM
Maybe 3:49 not 3:47, my bad

I remember a big debate someone had ( was it you?) with the board member ONCE over whether there was a 220-minute version. Then one day, ONCE just canceled his acct. and all his posts disappeared, too  ;D

He did? He deleted all his posts?

Yes, I remember that. But I don't remember if there was a consensus. Actually, apart from that discussion, I can't remember that I ever read anything about a shorter version authorisised by Leone than the theatrical version, and that is the one released on DVDs and Blus, and is the one which runs 229 min.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 01, 2015, 02:20:01 AM
...And I would like to have the 3:49 version as well. Then everyone can watch whatever he/ she prefers.

Was it ever explained why the " new" version is only 251 minutes? Did they not have the other half hour or so even in that bad quality?

Different people like different things and I don't see why two versions of the movie can't co-exist happily.

There was a newspaper report that additional restoration work was being done but nothing seems to have come of it.  Some are adamant that this is why the missing 19 minutes have not been released but in my opinion the situation is still unresolved. There are three main possibilities:

1. The condition of the missing footage is so poor it can't be restored

2. Copyright issues

3. The footage conflicts with scenes in the 229 min version

Considering the large sums of money that have been put into the restoration the results are disappointing and I'm not sure that at present there is much appetite for spending additional sums on further restoration work. However we can but hope and as I've said before I would happily accept the missing footage even if it was in poor condition or even a written note from Andrea Leone Films, WB or Fox describing the content and why it can't be released.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on December 01, 2015, 05:47:35 AM
Please stop bullying Stanton! #LeaveStantonAlone


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 01, 2015, 07:59:07 AM
Yeah, all of ONCE's posts are gone. It's a shame because that dude was really well-researched and posted some great, informative stuff RE: OUATIA. All we have left from him are the stuff he posted that was quoted in other people's posts. But his own posts are gone. I have no idea why he did that. Other people have canceled their accounts but their posts have remained.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on December 01, 2015, 08:40:16 AM
He's explained at least a couple times:

- he was spending too much time on the board (hence the high quality posts)
- his wife wasn't happy about it (girls always make you chose between Sergio and them)
- it was kind of an addiction (just like Drink) so to stop himself from coming back he deleted his account
- he still came back for a short period of time here and there, with new accounts
- he had no idea deleting his account was gonna delete the posts


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on December 01, 2015, 02:58:24 PM

- he had no idea deleting his account was gonna delete the posts

Is that so?
Normally, or at least in other forums the posts remain when an account is deleted. And the account remains then as "guest". If one wants to delete his posts he has to do this manually, but before he deletes his account.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on December 01, 2015, 03:41:21 PM
I doubt he would do that. I mean the whole idea was that he was spending too much time. Why take even MORE time undoing what you already took too much time doing?
Anyway, he was trying to fight an addictive behaviour. That can lead to strange actions. The point is he had his reasons.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 01, 2015, 07:12:37 PM
What names did he come back as?

I remember that he was here for a very short time buthis posts blew me away. Informative, researched, incredible stuff. And all on one movie.

Addicted to a message board?  ;D


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on December 02, 2015, 02:20:02 AM
Addicted to a message board?  ;D

I suspect you are too.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on December 02, 2015, 02:31:21 AM
I doubt he would do that. I mean the whole idea was that he was spending too much time. Why take even MORE time undoing what you already took too much time doing?
Anyway, he was trying to fight an addictive behaviour. That can lead to strange actions. The point is he had his reasons.

If any deleted account automatically deletes any post of this member, several threads could become difficult to read. There are even forums in which you can't alter a post after a few hours, so that nobody can delete any of his older posts.

But then every forum software is different, and if here the posts are directly connected with the account, this should be changed if possible. Not that every thread in this forum has a great value, which should be preserved for the future, but some have.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: noodles_leone on December 02, 2015, 02:54:49 AM
My threads are amazing.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: stanton on December 02, 2015, 03:07:59 AM
My threads are amazing.

Not as good as your signature ... ;)


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on December 02, 2015, 05:38:54 AM
Not as good as your signature ... ;)

Yea what's up with your sig, I must have missed the initial back & forth between you and DJ. 
I was always disappointed that they didn't make a film about Francis Marion the actual "Swamp Fox" rather than what we got.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 02, 2015, 07:42:21 AM
A great signature is one of the few things n_l has conntributed to this board :*

So I guess Rpower can one day decide to up and leave, and the whole RTLMYS thread would be gone? Or he can delete the thread if he gets in the mood?

There should be certain threads that can't be deleted; they should be archived. Or "locked" from deletion by a moderator.








Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: PowerRR on December 02, 2015, 07:30:36 PM

So I guess Rpower can one day decide to up and leave, and the whole RTLMYS thread would be gone? Or he can delete the thread if he gets in the mood?
>:D >:D >:D >:D >:D


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on December 07, 2015, 05:43:24 AM

...Leone didn't know that the Ladd Company would find a 270 min version unacceptable until 4 months after the start of editing.

Have just read Diego Gabutti's C'era Una Volta In America.

Leone discusses all his movies, actors he worked with and his involvement in Bicycle Thieves, Ben Hur etc.  Written in Italian.

There's some more information about his dispute with the Ladd Company.  Filming finished on 22 Apr 1983 and Leone expected the movie to be ready for release in December 1983.  Towards the end of August or beginning of September 1983 he learnt that a 270 min version would be unacceptable to them and in November 1983 he learnt that they intended to put everything into chronological order and make a shorter version. Apparently from day one Alan Ladd jnr had always wanted the movie to be in chronological order.
 
  


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on December 07, 2015, 01:05:44 PM
That's so awesome that they re-published it last month. I need to start saving my pennies so I can get me a copy.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: cigar joe on July 05, 2016, 12:39:45 PM
Just viewed the extended scenes up to the end of Prohibition they really don't add much do they? The Eve stuff is probably the most interesting.


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: chris on July 06, 2016, 01:42:25 AM
Just viewed the extended scenes up to the end of Prohibition they really don't add much do they? The Eve stuff is probably the most interesting.

Whilst I'm glad I've seen the additional scenes, the extended version is a bit of a disappointment.

It may be slightly sharper than WB's 2011 Blu-ray, but there's a tint throughout, compression artifacts and a lowering of contrast.  Ignoring notices about the restoration etc, the running time has been increased by 20 mins 38 secs only.

This is less that the 26 minutes promised and a further 20 mins 22 secs needs to be added to bring it closer to Leone's 270 min version. I can only hope that one day a better version which addresses some of the shortcomings will be released.

 


Title: Re: NEW DIRECTORS CUT
Post by: Novecento on July 06, 2016, 01:00:11 PM
I mentioned earlier that I thought the following additional scene was the only one that should never have been cut:

Quote
Gang in water / car explosion
Absolutely essential. The whole thing is shot and edited beautifully with a wonderful visual transition between the two time periods. Furthermore the introduction of the garbage truck helps with storyline continuity by linking with the end of the film. This should never have been cut.

The other scene I thought partially warranted inclusion was the following:

Quote
Noodles meets Eve at Moe's place / Deborah in station cafe
The beginning introducing Eve is essential for the storyline; the end with Deborah drinking in the cafe is essential for stylistic continuity and is a really beautiful little shot; the sex scene in the middle is unnecessary. After Noodles gets up to leave Moe’s speakeasy with Eve and asks if he can call her Deborah, there should have been a cut directly to Deborah in the cafe. This would have tied together the two of them drinking their sorrows away (Noodles at the bar, Deborah in the cafe) with Noodles’ mention of Deborah allowing a verbal link to accompany the visual. Unfortunately the sex scene between Noodles and Eve between these two scenes does not allow for this continuity.