i mean look at all the complaints about the good the bad and the ugly... and that was a much simplier restoration... they tried to do too much from what i''ve heard... all they had to do IMO was add the italian-only scenes that were mising from the american release and leave them as is with subtitles... but no they had to redub them, which i''ve heard sound terrible.. this is all from what i''ve heard, because of this i haven''t even taken a look at the new gbu restoration
Might account for why Max always got so worked up about being called crazy.
An older Carol (Tuesday Weld) revealing to Noodles that Max had syphilis.
At the end of filming, Leone had about 8 to 10 hours worth of footage. With his editor, Nino Baragli, Leone trimmed this down to about 6 hours, and wanted to release the film in two three-hour parts but producers refusedI don't know why they don't just go the whole hog and release the whole 6 hours or at least the longest possible version so long as there is an audio track to accompany the footage.
Does anyone know anything about the strange moment where De Niro is being stalked by a frisbee, then the film cuts to him getting out of prison? I remember in Richard Schickel's DVD commentary he mentions that there may be footage cut here.
It might of been interesting as an experiment to put everything back in but as Sergio's no longer around whose not to say, having seen everything put in, he might have said take that out etc. To have them seperatly allows us to enjoy them restored without making a 'restorers cut' of the film rather like the 2006 Pat Garett Cut.
Hang on I'm confused, they are restoring the footage back in to a new version? Another article posted here said about a new DVD release with the footage avaliable sepertatly not restored back in. The thing is if Leone and Baragli did this six hour cut then there must be a version of this somewhere. In editing it works like this. You first have the work print which collects all the footage together so the editor and the director have something to work from. The next version to be made is called the directors cut. This is the version of the movie the director feels is his and how he sees it. This is then often screened to the studios and producers who make their own versions till a version is made which both sides agree on. So in theory the 6 hour version would be Leone's directors cut which also means there must be a copy of this to go back to when creating the new restoration version. If they can find this they they should be able to use this a guide. Of couse I would like to see how they're going to do the dubbing (i.e impressionists or the original cast)Very interesting insight into this part of the filmaking process LA O0
Do you think it's likely that the directors 6 hour version would contain the Morricone score throughout?
I wonder if Morricone has seen the 6 hour version of OUATIA ???
Prob'ly not. The score was mostly pre-composed, wasn't it? That's what James Woods said.
Thanks for those articles. Interesting read. The US Theatrical we basically taken out of Sergio's hands which is such a crying shame. I'm glad we have the 'Cannes version' on DVD now. An editor I worked with is convinced that he's seen a longer version then the Cannes cut. Not sure if thats true though...
Will someone please lock this piece of crap?Cool it please,afterall you don't have to look at this thread even if its not really progressing anywhere quickly. :)
On a strange memory flashback to the 80s, I suddenly remembered that there was a music video with the German band Modern Talking that used bits from OUATIA... Found it here in so so quality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ect3VoEUJn8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ect3VoEUJn8)
Tor
Well spotted! O0
I wonder though . . . the current widescreen DVD is already called a "Special Edition." Will this new release actually be something new, or just the current SE repackaged?
This guy is dumb. He is saying a movie shot on 35mm 20 years ago cannot look as good as a movie shot on 35mm today.No, I think he's totally right.
It's like saying that someone making a drawing 20 years ago, cannot scan on digital as good as the same drawing drawn today. idiot.
This guys is stupid. A 35mm frame is 4 to 8 times superior in resolution to 1080p video, HE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT AND HIS ON DRUGS OR PAID OFF BY THE BLU RAY ALLIANCE TO SPEAK TRASH.May be, but older films usually have unremovable scratches and marks...
Even Leone movies, shot in poors man cinemascope, ARE TWO TIMES THE RESOLUTION OF 1080P VIDEO SO THEY SHOULD LOOK AS GOOD AS ANY OTHER MOVIE FROM RECENT YEARS IF THE JOB IS DONE RIGHT.
No further news from Warner Bros but according to another source, work on the 25th Anniversary Edition started in September 2005. This 314 minute final cut adds several scenes, how Noodles met Eve, the arrest of Bugsy, a black limousine and Noodles' family. Other important additions are the explanations of the frisbee scene and the garbage truck scene. There is also an alternate ending to the movie.You mean the "source" on IMDb? It's talked here: http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=3582.0 Unfortunately it's most probably a rumor, more specifically a hoax. I saw the original post on IMDb once (it's fallen over the edge long time ago), the poster claimed he had been to some event where Milchan announced this, that's why he couldn't provide any further evidents. I so hope this would be true, but probably isn't. But we will see next year.
Disc contents:
Final cut version of movie - running time 314 minutes
Commentaries: Sergio Leone (in Italian with subtitles in English),
James Woods, Robert De Niro, Arnon Milchan, Richard Schickel
Special "Behind The Scenes" featurette including
Casting and Locations
Deleted Scenes
Alternate Ending
Leone: Art of Direction
Soundtrack
Sergio Leone: Once Upon a Time
A look inside Harry Grey's The Hoods
Characters & Bios
Unfortunately it's most probably a rumor, more specifically a hoax.
The "Sergio Leone commentary" confirms that this just has to be a hoax.I think it was supposed to be joined from interviews or something like that.
Shame. :(
I would think it unusual for a director or the family of a deceased director to have rights over parts of a movie he has worked on but we will probably find out a bit more in due course.I only know what has been reported in this thread. See Derbent 5000's post on the first page.
Bugsy's arrest, Noodles' family, the young gang acting as normal kids, how Noodles met Eve, subsequent scenes with Eve, the older gang's humor and interaction with the public, Noodles relationships with women could be important scenes and if they could be seamlessly incorporated into the movie, the end result could be fantastic. The nearer we can get to Leone's vision the better.But Leone's vision may have included suppressing some or all of those scenes.
2. Frankie (the Joe Pesci character) mysteriously appears at the end of the scene where Noodles & Maxie are in the hospital with Jimmy and then decide to go on a Florida vacation together. We never see the significance of Frankie's appearance.
I often wondered 'bout that as a kid.
Certain things are unexplained 229-minute version. Some examples:
3. Eve kind of appears out of nowhere, ie. we never see where Noodles meets her
2. Frankie (the Joe Pesci character) mysteriously appears at the end of the scene where Noodles & Maxie are in the hospital with Jimmy and then decide to go on a Florida vacation together. We never see the significance of Frankie's appearance.
3. Eve kind of appears out of nowhere, ie. we never see where Noodles meets her
I have heard that many of the scenes with Eve are among those that were cut.
Noodles "met" Eve at the bank during the robbery, made a small deposit !!! And they say that early withdrawal results in loss of interest - TRUE !!!
Another thing I found strange is that once Noodles gets out of prison, he immediately begins going on jobs with the group, and voicing his opinion when he disagrees with them, and opening his mouth to Frankie, a big mobster. You would think that if he just got out of prison and suddenly sees that his buddies have been successful gangsters, that a) he would shut his mouth and not argue with their methods; and b) there would be some discussion and "practice" for them to discuss business with him, for him to practice shooting a gun, etc. It seems kinda weird to me that one night Noodles gets out of prison, and immediately he is doing hardcore jobs with them as if he is an experienced member, and arguing with them as if he is an equal member.
Most OUATIA fans would love to see the deleted scenes but there are no new statements from the people with the power to make something happen. I've not seen anything from the studios, Milchan's promise was made in 1999 and Raffaella Leone's interview was in September 2006.
Details of the deleted and unfilmed scenes are in the shooting script and this doesn't contain scenes explaining how Noodles received the invitation to Secretary Bailey's party or the mysterious appearance of Frankie at the hospital. The frisbee is just an imaginative visual link between scenes, with the misleading undertone that something bad is going to happen to Noodles.
Viewing the deleted scenes would however tell us a lot about Eve and her relationship with Noodles, Noodles' family and early poverty, why Bugsy hates the gang so much and important parts of the story. For example a black limousine tailing Noodles at the cemetary, Noodles standing near the gates to the rear of Bailey's mansion and watching as the same black limousine explodes. Jimmy's conversation with Bailey letting us know about his involvement with the unions, that he has made mistakes and how he would benefit from taking his own life.
Throughout the movie, Leone uses imaginative visual links to tie scenes together. If all the scenes in the script had been included in the movie it would have been uncomfortably long for a single film but the removal of some scenes has weakened some of these visual links. Examples:
The gang go swimming in a car and the car disappearing under the water is linked to a burnt-out car being sprayed with foam. In the original script, the car disappears under the water and is linked to Noodles' head surfacing in a Turkish baths.
Noodles, standing near an oriental building, watches a garbage truck disappear into the distance (driven on the left hand side of the road), a procession of old cars passes by and links to Noodles' arrival at the opium den. Noodles watching the procession of cars was to be linked to a procession in Chinatown which would then have more easily linked to the opium den scenes.
As for Frankie's appearance in the hospital: the way he acts, it's not so hard to decipher Frankie had something going on behind Noodles' back, it's just that we'd like to see what, and when, and how much. ;)Wouldja believe . . . they're conspiring to cut Noodles out and set him up to look like a stoolie?
Wouldja believe . . . they're conspiring to cut Noodles out and set him up to look like a stoolie?
Same here, I thought about that too more than once - it isn't very believable.
That's Carol not Eve.
Once Upon A Time In America getting Extended Version check this out.....
http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=6007
http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/archives/new_cut_of_sergio_leones_once_upon_a_time_in_america_on_the_way_with_40/#
if this is indeed happening, this is the absolute greatest news I have heard in a loooong time. YEEEEHAH!!!
btw, I never even knew that the movie has been released on Blu Ray till I read these links. I am wondering if anyone can tell me whether the Blu Ray has any features that the regular dvd does not have? Specifically, does the Blu Ray have a Frayling commentary?
I'm intrigued, but I'm also of the school of thought that OUATIA is long (and complete) enough.
btw, earlier in this thread we were discussing whether the scene of Frankie walking into the elevator and the frisbee scene were part of larger, cut scenes. Well I just looked up the OUATIA chapter in STDWD again; Frayling has a script there from 1981. Though parts of it differ from the final script, those 2 parts are as is. So I guess they were indeed intended that way and never meant to be part of any bigger scene
I'm not saying the missing footage isn't of interest, but frankly I'd rather have it available separately as part of the special features. The 229-minute version is good enough as it is, even if a few minor points bug me.I disagree, mostly because of the way Leone shaped the film. The long flashback structure allows for more episodes to be incorporated, possibly an infinite number, if such were theoretically possible. Another film that seems incapable of ever being too long is GBU: if tomorrow it was discovered that the long lost scene with Blondie and the whore had been discovered, I'd say, Get it in there. And anything else that comes along. The more adventures the better.
That's what I've been saying!
I disagree, mostly because of the way Leone shaped the film. The long flashback structure allows for more episodes to be incorporated, possibly an infinite number, if such were theoretically possible. Another film that seems incapable of ever being too long is GBU: if tomorrow it was discovered that the long lost scene with Blondie and the whore had been discovered, I'd say, Get it in there. And anything else that comes along. The more adventures the better.
By contrast, I wouldn't add anything more back into OUATITW: it is perfect the way it is, has achieved its optimal length. Same with FAFDM.
I'm not saying the missing footage isn't of interest, but frankly I'd rather have it available separately as part of the special features. The 229-minute version is good enough as it is, even if a few minor points bug me.
I disagree, mostly because of the way Leone shaped the film. The long flashback structure allows for more episodes to be incorporated, possibly an infinite number, if such were theoretically possible.
Also, do we know definitively what scenes from the script were actually filmed? (I guess we'll soon find out.) I have a hard time believing that the extra scenes with Danny Aiello's character, or Carol telling Noodles about Eve's suicide, would fit into the narrative.
I'm not saying the missing footage isn't of interest, but frankly I'd rather have it available separately as part of the special features. The 229-minute version is good enough as it is, even if a few minor points bug me.
Leone wanted this extra 40mins in it and I would definitely like to see it the way he intended.
I'd like to see the scenes of Noodles's childhood (the scene with Bugsy getting arrested in particular) and Darlanne Fluegel's extra scenes if they exist. Maybe the 1968 scene between Max and O'Donnell.
Italian news articles give some additional details. For example:
It looks like the unreleased footage already has original audio in English
Leone's children have found a script written by him between 1960 and 1965 about a battle between warriors in Ancient Rome. Inspired by The Magnificent 7. David Franzoni screenwriter of Amistad and The Gladiator is very eager to put together a film based on the script.
Another article reveals that the agreement with Milchan was signed 10 days ago and that Leone thought that the short U.S. version ruined his movie and he would never see it.
It also states that Scorsese has said he is available for the new version. Leone's children are adamant that the fully restored director's cut will be available in 2012.
http://forum.blu-ray.com/italy/167439-cera-una-volta-america-once-upon-time-america-new-restored-version.html (http://forum.blu-ray.com/italy/167439-cera-una-volta-america-once-upon-time-america-new-restored-version.html)
You have to ask Leone's children ... ;)
But I'm sure if the one day version exists it will be sold to the whole world.
Once Upon A Time In America 1984 Original Director's Cut is going to be restore, some articles i found on web enjoy
http://www.latinoreview.com/news/-once-upon-a-time-in-america-to-be-restored-with-director-s-cut-12886
http://blog.moviefone.com/2011/03/11/once-upon-a-time-in-america-new-release/
http://www.filmjunk.com/2011/03/11/longer-version-of-once-upon-a-time-in-america-in-the-works/
http://www.flicksnews.net/2011/03/40-minutes-of-unused-footage-to-be.html
http://www.movieline.com/2011/03/sergio-leones-once-upon-a-time-in-america-is-about-to-get-even-more-epic.php
http://www.sneakpeek.ca/2011/03/leone-family-restoring-once-upon-time.html
http://geektyrant.com/news/2011/3/10/forty-minutes-of-unused-footage-being-added-to-sergio-leones.html
http://www.slashfilm.com/cut-sergio-leones-time-america-40-minutes/
http://www.filmshaft.com/sergio-leones-kids-planning-new-cut-of-once-upon-a-time-in-america/
http://thefilmstage.com/2011/03/10/sergio-leones-once-upon-a-time-in-america-getting-restored-with-40-new-minutes-added/
http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/archives/new_cut_of_sergio_leones_once_upon_a_time_in_america_on_the_way_with_40/
(8)Carol at the Rest home tells Noodles how Eve died alone
Hope this helps.
Noodles and the gang are holding Max back. He is ambitious and wants to pursue career opportunities out West. He needs the gang's money and doesn't want to leave any loose ends. In one of the deleted scenes Carol tells Noodles that he doesn't give a sh** about Patsy and Cockeye but he didn't want Noodles to die.
Max owns a funeral business. Getting hold of a suitable corpse wouldn't be a problem for him.
Yes - Max duped her and Noodles
SCENE 140 REST HOME: CAROL'S ROOM (1968) Interior. Late Afternoon.
NOODLES enters. The NURSE closes the door from outside.
CAROL is sitting in a chair, her eyes closed, breathing slowly and deeply, relaxed, at peace with herself.
Coming towards her, NOODLES notices an empty hypo and a hemostat on a nearby table. Without opening her eyes, CAROL goes on talking again as if in a trance.
CAROL
Do you still wake up sick over having killed Max? You still on that guilt trip? Huh, Noodles?...
You know why I kept wishing I'd see you again?
She opens her eyes and turns to look him full in the face.
To tell you he was better off dead. He had the syph. It had started to eat his brain little by little. If he wasn't already crazy, he soon woulda been.
Every time I watch this film, a new part of the plot bothers me. I just finished it again, and here is what I cannot figure out:Well, I always thought that the police were very much involved the case; that they saw that Max really gets away, that the others get killed and that a fake body is found. But this of course raises a bunch of new questions that lead to the conclusion that Max never (not in the end anyway) actually seriously thought that he was going to rob the bank - the whole robbery was just a way to cause a lot of noise so that Max could change scenery undisrupted. Naturally this scenario would imply that Max very clearly knew how much trouble and pain he was going to cause Noodles - maybe that was even a strong motivation for his act.
When Noodles visits Carol in the rest home, she tells him that on that fateful night, Max started shooting at the cops cuz he wanted to get himself killed, cuz he was afraid of winding up in a nut house like his father. (And in some of the extra scenes, I believe Carol also says that Max had syphilis).
However, once we find out at the end that Max is still alive, it is never explained why he indeed started shooting that night? Some may say that he intentionally faked his own death so that he could run away and build a new life under a different identity, but I do not agree with that; there is no way that Max could have anticipated that by starting the shooting, there would be someone with a similar-looking body to him that would be burned up and people would think it was him and he would be able to get away (Sure, once that did happen, Max took the opportunity to run away and build a new identity, etc.) However, Carol was obviously wrong in her belief that Max was trying to kill himself that night, so I am wondering if anyone can answer me: now that we realize Carol was wrong about Max trying to get himself killed, why did Max start the shooting that night?
(Here is the only answer I can think of: Carol was right that Max indeed started the shooting cuz he wanted to die; however, once he realized he could get away and they'd misidentify his body, he figured that was even better than committing suicide: to get away and change identities. So Carol was correct in her belief about Max intending to die that night, but she was wrong about the final result...? Or perhaps Carol was wrong about the entire thing; Max was really never suicidal and did not really start the shooting that night... but that doesn't seem likely).... I'd appreciate if anyone would clear this up for me.
Thanks :)
Well, I always thought that the police were very much involved the case; that they saw that Max really gets away, that the others get killed and that a fake body is found. But this of course raises a bunch of new questions that lead to the conclusion that Max never (not in the end anyway) actually seriously thought that he was going to rob the bank - the whole robbery was just a way to cause a lot of noise so that Max could change scenery undisrupted. Naturally this scenario would imply that Max very clearly knew how much trouble and pain he was going to cause Noodles - maybe that was even a strong motivation for his act.
Just my speculation.
It will not be just a simple restoration of the film "Once Upon a Time in America", but a director's cut, that is a return to the original version that the director Sergio Leone had assembled. A dream that his children, Andrea and Raffaella, have pursued for a long time and now thanks to an agreement with producer Arnon Milchan, signed ten days ago, it will become a reality.
.. this of course raises a bunch of new questions that lead to the conclusion that Max never (not in the end anyway) actually seriously thought that he was going to rob the bank - the whole robbery was just a way to cause a lot of noise so that Max could change scenery undisrupted. Naturally this scenario would imply that Max very clearly knew how much trouble and pain he was going to cause Noodles - maybe that was even a strong motivation for his act.
Just my speculation.
Remember, Max made sure Noodles did not accompany the others that night, because his plan was already in place...Good call O0 It's been years since I last saw the movie so I don't remember all the details. This pretty much confirms my theory.
Remember, Max made sure Noodles did not accompany the others that night, because his plan was already in place...
I don't see any evidence in the film as to where Noodles was at that time, and why he wasn't escorting the booze shipment, and how he made it out of there alive.Now I could be totally wrong, but didn't Max knock him out?
I have read that in a deleted scene (which will hopefully now be restored), the elderly Carol tells Noodles that Max didn't want to involve him in his suicide, but that he didn't give a fuck about Cockeye and Patsy. Of course, we know that Carol's version of the story is wrong (she still believes the story Max told her...) but I see no evidence to support the version that Max intentionally left Noodles alive to cause him grief... I mean, if Max wanted to ditch his past life, change identities and take the money and move on, isn't it better not to leave anybody around?
I would really appreciate if someone can explain exactly where Noodles was on that fateful night and why he wasn't involved in the shooting....
Now I could be totally wrong, but didn't Max knock him out?
Now I could be totally wrong, but didn't Max knock him out?
we see Max punch him and he falls down; next thing we see is the elderly Noodles and Carol at the Bailey Foundation. not clear whether Noodles got knocked out...?
In issue 359 of Cahiers Du Cinema dated May 01 1984, Leone spoke of the 50 minutes he cut from the movie:
Roughly translated:
"I cut a scene where Deborah (Elizabeth McGovern) plays the role of Cleopatra: meetings between Eve and De Niro; a love scene with Deborah as a young girl; a passage that I liked very much, the restaurant at the train station (it was shot at the Brasserie Julien in Paris); a very beautiful scene between De Niro and the driver of the Rolls Royce who is Jewish too, but bourgeois/middle-class.
I also cut a scene from the 1930s where the garbage truck that we see at the end of the film is stopped in front of the mansion, another where a crane dredges the river bringing the movie back to 1968. And another beautiful scene with Louise Fletcher, who plays the director of the cemetery - with one cut, we no longer see her in the film. Many of the cuts I was forced to make concern Noodles' relationships with women."
So the additional footage may be:
Deborah as Cleopatra
Meetings between Eve and Noodles
A love scene with Deborah as a young girl :o
Deborah waiting at the train station restaurant (Brasserie Julien in Paris)
De Niro and the driver of the Rolls Royce (Milchan) :-\
Garbage truck scene from 1930s
A crane dredging the river bringing the movie back to 1968
Louise Fletcher as director of the cemetery
(http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb338/once2/deleted/cahiers.jpg)
There's some relevance to Milchan's additional scene but I hope they changed the dialogue:
. . .
NOODLES
I like your outfit. Just like them Germans who drop matches onto Jewish delis so they can watch them burn to the ground.
CHAUFFEUR
They burned mine. So I brought my wife and children here.
. . .
CHAUFFEUR
They don't all tip like you. But I go to school, I'm working for a degree in chemical engineering.
NOODLES
Maybe you'll earn a few bucks by the time you're fifty and too old to get it up.
. . .
There's some relevance to Milchan's additional scene but I hope they changed the dialogue:Really? Sounds like pretty good dialogue to me.
I'm not saying the missing footage isn't of interest, but frankly I'd rather have it available separately as part of the special features. The 229-minute version is good enough as it is, even if a few minor points bug me.
Leone in De Fornari p25-6:
"Then there is the very long one that has never been edited and which lasts fifty minutes longer. Four and a half hours. But we rejected the idea of two parts on TV. It is so intricate that it has to be done in one evening. And besides, let's be honest: This one is my version. The other perhaps explained things more clearly and it could have been done on TV in two or three parts, but the version that I prefer is this one, that bit of reclusiveness is just what I like about it."
according to Frayling, it didn't seem like Leone was thrilled to have cut the 50 minutes. who knows...
Actually it was 80% and a 100% (p.136) ;). So yes, I guess he was pretty happy nonetheless.
...OUATITW was "95% himself" and OUATIA (european cut) "99%".
Ora l'Immagine Ritrovata sta riparando "C'era una volta in America" di Leone: deve essere pronto per Cannes 2012O0 O0
O0 O0
http://bologna.repubblica.it/cronaca/2011/10/01/news/nel_laboratorio_di_restauro_dei_film_che_pure_scorsese_invidia_a_bologna-22504184/
By Google but you can get the gist of it
It also works nights and weekends to meet deadlines. Now the picture they are restoring is "Once Upon a Time in America" by Leone to be ready for Cannes 2012
"We have a lot of work, sometimes over night we respect the time and also from December on weekends, but we do not know what will be our future." The speaker is Helen Tammaccaro, between the leaders of the Image Laboratory found again that if the Municipal Film Archive will not be able to become Foundation later this year will close its doors. Yesterday the Mayor for Cultural Ronchi, in the City Council, confirmed that the transformation will occur. The workshop brings useful and is considered one of the centers of excellence of the restoration in Europe. These days it is restoring Upon a Time in America Sergio Leone, Martin Scorsese's Film Foundation and want ready for Cannes 2012.
In addition to that of Helen, at the risk of other places there are 32 people, including 15 and 17 employees hired. Professionals to bring back to life the film they are targeting film archives all over the world, including Hong Kong and Singapore as well as the now famous collaboration with Scorsese's Film Foundation and the French Gaumont and Pathé. "It's a gamble born in the 90s - remembers Gian Luca Farinelli, director of the Film Archive - Film Found from experience that made us feel first hand the lack of a place in Italy for restoration. With a course specially created and the first equipment funded by the Province began a limited company, then on the initiative of Mayor Cofferati became a company in cohousing with the City. " But the big problem today is cohousing.
"Thanks to a law wanted by Tremonti - explains Farinelli - from 2012 will no longer be companies within the municipalities. But the laboratory is difficult to sell, even if it's useful. Its value is not only economic, it is an asset for throughout the city. " A heritage of meticulous work and avant-garde technology, passion and a solid philological cultural background. "When a film comes to us to be restored - explains Tammaccaro - the first thing we do is to recover the historical memory. We have worked with directors of photography and operators such as Ennio Guarnieri for the sweet life, Daniel Nannuzzi for The Damned, or same directors as Vittorio De Seta for his short ". Then for each title is an ad-hoc path. "We do not just repair the damage, try to return to work its value."
A commitment that requires at least three months to film. Arrived in Via Riva Reno the film is over, frame by frame, to fix the flaws evident manually, then it is scanned in order to continue with the "clean" digital, then you are working on lights and colors involving the workers of the time. All the while in parallel it back to life sound. And, finally, it's back to film. So it was Visconti's Senso, for Sergio Leone's A Fistful of Dynamite, short for the Brothers Lumière and other dozens of masterpieces. So it is these days for America Loen, but The Great Illusion by Jean Renoir, End of Days by Elio Petri and Chaplin's The Gold Rush. And so we hope to continue to be from January onwards.
(October 1, 2011)
Thanks to Novecento, drinkanddestroy, cigar joe and Google.
Looks like, despite the laboratory's funding problems, the restoration is on track for release at the Cannes Film Festival 2012 (May 16 - 27).
Hopefully other screenings and releases will follow. O0
so it seems like the article was about the restoration company, which just so happened to be currently restoring OUATIA, so they mentioned the movie in the article; but the article was really about the restoration company, and not OUATIA per se, correct?
and I hope we can find the locations for the restored scenes ;)Well, yeah, but we may have to go to Canada for that. ;)
Well, yeah, but we may have to go to Canada for that. ;)
Sounds expensive, anyway. ::)
I'll start the trip by taking a boat up the Hudson to pick up you and cj from upstate, and we'll turn off into some little river somewhere to do some fly fishing. (Maybe we can go on the Delaware or Lackawanna, and pick up Groggy on the way O0)D&D, have you ever actually DONE any fly fishing?
D&D, have you ever actually DONE any fly fishing?
Anyway, I hope you win the lotto........
Exactly 3 months away from Cannes. Wonder if we'll get any official news on the new cut soon.
I was just doing some Googling a couple of nights ago, trying to find something on this very issue!
unfortunately, all the articles are from that period in mid-March when the official story broke. I have not heard any updates since then. At that time, Leone's children wanted to release it either at Cannes or Venice, but who knows what's gonna happen. I am so excited I can hardly wait. I am anticipating this like I've anticipated nothing before!
btw, all the stories say that the Leones purchased the Italian distribution rights to the film, (and I believe that the extra scenes will be released aith Italian subtitles). But anyone know what that means for America? Will it be released in America on Region 1, or will we have to purchase the Italian dvd?
Recent interview with Martin Scorsese in which he talks about Wolf of Wall Street that he hopes to start shooting in late summer and Once Upon a Time in America:If I had a Facebook page I'd be updating my status to Guardedly Optimistic.
"We have a wonderful film that’s been restored now that’ll be at Cannes called Once Upon a Time in America. Sergio Leone. It’s about 5 1/2 hours, this extraordinary gangster film that Leone made with De Niro and Jimmy Woods. It’s quite an achievement."
http://uk.askmen.com/entertainment/better_look/b_martin-scorsese-interview.html (http://uk.askmen.com/entertainment/better_look/b_martin-scorsese-interview.html)
It looks like this is really happening . WOW!
I mean cum my pants.That sounds incredibly painful, but I try not to judge the proclivities of others.
what if the longer cut only hurts the movie? think of Cinema Paradiso theatrical vs. director's cut...many people including myself agree that the director's cut fills in too much unwanted information and breaks the charm/mystery of the relationship between Toto/Elena/Alfredo. But then again Tornatore made it and he's probably a fucking dumb ass. Leone's a genius...hopefully we can trust that his 'preferred version' is the greatest
I just hope it will be released on dvd/blu ray in America soon after it premiers at Cannes.How likely is that? Isn't it more probable that the new version will be released to cinemas first? Needless to say, that will delay the home video editions, which are at least a year away.
How likely is that? Isn't it more probable that the new version will be released to cinemas first? Needless to say, that will delay the home video editions, which are at least a year away.
what if the longer cut only hurts the movie? think of Cinema Paradiso theatrical vs. director's cut...many people including myself agree that the director's cut fills in too much unwanted information and breaks the charm/mystery of the relationship between Toto/Elena/Alfredo.
well I'd love to see it in theaters of course. I would have no problem with a delay of the dvd/blu-ray while it's being shown in theaters O0
The movie covers a period of approx 47 years. A 229 min or 270 min cut can't possibly describe all the events that took place within that period and the surrounding circumstances.
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c) The Bailey Foundation is clearly a rest or nursing home. The idea that it has a theater where Deborah performs is misguided. Many people once they have acquired money or fame support charitable organisations. In the movie, when they are looking at the photograph of the home's inauguration, Carol clearly tells Noodles that Deborah is the Patron Saint of the place.
According to Issue 359 of Cahiers Du Cinema dated May 1984 the running time of the movie when released in Europe was 3 hours 40 (220 minutes).
From Cahiers interview with Sergio Leone in 1984, Leone discusses the 50 minutes he had to cut from the movie:
"Cahiers. Sur quoi ont porté les coupures de 50 minutes que vous avez déjà faites?"
In his book Something To Do With Death, Frayling talks about an extra 45 - 50 minutes but his sums don't quite add up.
Most of the recent press releases quote 40 minutes possibly because the writers are looking at a quoted running time of 229 minutes for the old version and 269 minutes for the fully restored version.
Soon after the agreement with Milchan to purchase the Italian rights, Andrea Leone said: "My father had made a version of four and a half hours (270 minutes), which was cut in Europe to three hours and forty (220 minutes)..."
I think the problem comes from when the movie was transferred to DVD. Owing to their using different frame rates, the NTSC version is 229 mins long and the PAL version 219 mins. Web sites such as IMDb naturally refer to the NTSC version for the running time of the movie.
For a long time I've been thinking about purchasing Marcello Garofalo's C'era una volta in America. Photographic memories. Quite an expensive book but 320 pages and some interesting photos.
Here's another article - this also holds out the hope for a nice new remastered blu-ray:"No word yet on when this version will hit DVD or BluRay but we presume that's around the corner." An absolutely worthless presumption.
http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/restored-cut-of-sergio-leones-once-upon-a-time-in-america-with-40-more-minutes-to-premiere-at-cannes-film-festival-20120418?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed
The theatrical UK version was slightly cut.No doubt because of the horse falls.
"No word yet on when this version will hit DVD or BluRay but we presume that's around the corner." An absolutely worthless presumption.
But let's see what I can pull out of my ass anyway, OK?
Most reliable sources for the 1980's quote the running time of the movie when released in Europe as 3hrs 40 (220 minutes). :-\
On the other hand for unknown reasons Scorsese has already failed to recreate the theatrical version of OUTW.
My reliable sources include Cahiers Du Cinema (1984), Sergio Leone (1984), Andrea Leone (has lived with the movie for most of his life) and Frayling (some errors & misunderstandings in other parts of his book).
I don't think you have any reliable sources from the 1980s to match these.
Running times of DVDs, Blu-rays, TV & VHS versions are not relevant other than to confuse writers of articles in newspapers, magazines and web sites who incorrectly assume that the running time of a NTSC version is the same as that of the original theatrical release.
In any event the comments on the Festival's official site seem clear - an additional 25 minutes have been added to the movie bringing the running time to 245 minutes.
My reliable sources include Cahiers Du Cinema (1984), Sergio Leone (1984), Andrea Leone (has lived with the movie for most of his life) and Frayling (some errors & misunderstandings in other parts of his book).
I don't think you have any reliable sources from the 1980s to match these.
Running times of DVDs, Blu-rays, TV & VHS versions are not relevant other than to confuse writers of articles in newspapers, magazines and web sites who incorrectly assume that the running time of a NTSC version is the same as that of the original theatrical release.
No. Historically PAL & NTSC use different frame rates. This means that a NTSC version of a movie is approx 4% longer that a PAL version. It doesn't contain any extra footage, there is just a small slowdown in the action which is not noticeable to most people. PAL versions of OUATIA are approx. 219 mins and NTSC versions approx 229 mins.
I like Frayling and he would be my number one choice for the commentary on the Blu-ray of a fully restored version of OUATIA. Something To Do With Death is a massive undertaking and source of information and would have involved a lot of hard work and research.
Regrettably it contains many errors and misunderstandings quite apart from running times.
An obvious example is P.430: "Noodles leaves New York in 1933 (shuffling off to Buffalo, by train)"
So in the movie Noodles goes to a Bus, Ferry & Train Terminal. He walks to a kiosk marked Green Bus Line. He speaks to a vendor wearing a Green Bus Line badge and purchases a ticket to Buffalo. Quite specifically he says "First Bus". There are three arrows, one points in the direction of the ferry, one in the direction of the trains and one in the direction of the buses. Noodles heads off in the direction of the arrow marked buses. Nevertheless some board members still agree with Frayling that Noodles catches a train. Hmmm.
it's just that the final scene with the end music and the words "Once Upon a Time in the West" that were changed and the "Scorcese version" never fixed; but it's not that any of the actual movie footage from the original theatrical release is missing, no?
Well, we had tried to make this clear somewhere in the OUTW section of this forum. There are about 70 sec missing in the first scene, from which Scorsese only restored 15 sec.
Did Leone necessarily want all that in the first scene? Was all the extra time in the first scene in the original Italian release?
The experts seem to agree that the longer version (269-270 mins) has never been shown to the public. So yes, ignoring the running times, the movie that went around Europe had more or less the same content albeit with very minor differences. For example I think some seconds depicting graphic violence were taken out of the English release.
And yes, provided only 25 minutes or so is added to the movie when it's released on disc, the running time of an NTSC DVD or Blu-ray should be about 255 minutes.
so withoput getting into all the technical stuff about the difference between PAL and NTSC, is it correct to say that, in a nutshell, the movie that was shown at Cannes and European theaters in in 1984 was basically the exact same version as what we currently have on region 1 dvd?
so withoput getting into all the technical stuff about the difference between PAL and NTSC, is it correct to say that, in a nutshell, the movie that was shown at Cannes and European theaters in in 1984 was basically the exact same version as what we currently have on region 1 dvd?
if so, and assuming it is correct that only 25 minutes will now be restored, can we assume that when the restored version is released on Region 1 dvd, it will be 254 minutes?
--------------
As we've discussed many times, Frayling cites Leone (pp. 458-456 of STDWD) saying that his ideal running time would have been "between 4:10 -- 4:25" but he very reluctantly cut 45-50 minutes of "significant material."
The math seems a tad off: 45-50 minutes added to 3:49 would make the movie between 4:34 -- 4:39, not 4:10 -- 4:25. Be that as it may, at this link http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=1302.msg146836#msg146836 I listed the scenes that Frayling says were cut, and I think we all believe the restored scenes will be from those scenes, if not all.
Anyway, (assuming Frayling's story is correct, and assuming that there aren't technical problems like damaged tape) it seems strange to me that Leone's kids and Scorcese, et. al. would want to restore the movie, yet not to the full amount that Leone would have wanted it. I mean, even if theoretically they believe that some of those scenes are bad and don't belong, wouldn't it make the most sense that they would want to advance Leone's vision of the ideal version of the movie, rather than their own opinion of the ideal version? Even if let's say there are a few bad scenes among them, I think they would want to show it Leone wanted it, without regard for their own opinions of those scenes.
Its says: "featuring roughly 20 minutes of additional scenes that have never before been seen by audiences."
then below : "along with the over 20 minutes of additional footage found and preserved by the Leone family."
Its either poor writing or 40 minutes. Take your pick ;)
the jist of which is this paragraph:
The film, Leone’s last, originally premiered out of competition at Cannes in 1984, at 229 minutes, the same version of which was released in European theaters that spring. The newly restored version to premiere this year at Cannes brings Leone’s masterpiece back to life, featuring roughly 20 minutes of additional scenes that have never before been seen by audiences. Through the work of The Film Foundation and through funding by Gucci, Cineteca di Bologna and L’Immagine Ritrovata are restoring the 229-minute version utilizing the original camera negative held by the US rightsholder, Regency Enterprises, along with the over 20 minutes of additional footage found and preserved by the Leone family.
sounds like a total of 40 minutes, hummmmmm. :D
We definitely need another press release from Leone's children or somebody connected with Cannes or involved in the restoration process or Scorcese.
We are very much in the dark and it's possible that some of the film stock is damaged or poor quality and would look out of place.
We know that several scenes were filmed which wouldn't make much sense if simply inserted into the movie, e.g. Carol talking about how Eve died alone. There's also known flaws such as two different number plates on the black limousine tailing Noodles, one filmed in New York and one at Pratica di Mare.
Ignoring minor quibbles on minutes and frame rates, Leone is reported to have made a 270 minute version, cut 50 minutes and made a 220 minute version.
It may not be that simple.
If these 50 minutes of cuts include scenes such as Carol talking about how Eve died alone and the black limousine, Leone didn't simply cut out 50 minutes and put them to one side for his children to find later. He re-edited parts of the movie to cover over the cracks (he reportedly had ten hours of footage to play with) and to enable the 220 minute version to make sense.
Leone doesn't use voice overs much but after Max knocks out Noodles to stop him going on the gang's last job, we cut to the Bailey Foundation and Carol's voice saying "Max made fools of us Noodles..." This is dialog from a deleted scene (SCENE 148). For much of the scene that follows we don't see close-ups of Carol speaking her dialog and it's quite possible (and easy for an experienced editor) that this was edited after Leone had completed his 270 minute version. If so, the original may have been destroyed and simply inserting the scene of Carol talking about how Eve died alone wouldn't make sense.
I was extremely disappointed when I heard that they'd only added in 25 minutes but perhaps they had no other choice and it would be great to see the 25 minutes they didn't use as an extra on a futute DVD or Blu-ray.
Pardon - I can't believe what you're saying, drinkanddestroy or your definition of "we".
I have 2 DVD versions of OUATIA, both with running times of approx 220 minutes, similar to the one described on the following web site:
http://msb247.awardspace.com/dvd.htm (http://msb247.awardspace.com/dvd.htm)
I also have a VHS tape with a stated running time of 218 minutes together with several other versions.
Either way, if the difference between the 220-minute version and the 229-minute version is entirely due to the PAL/NTSC, and there is zero difference in content, then I wouldn't even refer to as "different versions of the movie"; the bottom line is that it is the exact same movie :)
However, I just checked what ONCE cited, p. 541 of STDWD the "Complete Filmography" section, and it says:
"Running Times: It 218 mins, GB 228 mins, US 139 mins; US restored print 227 mins"
But if the shorter running time of the Europan version was due to the PAL/NTSC, then why is only the Italian version shorter, while the GB version is the same as the American? Does GB use NTSC? (If UK and Italy both use PAL, then this would indicate that the Italian version was indeed shorter than the UK version, so the are in fact two different versions of the movie, and not the same version just with different running times due to PAL/NTSC).
I'm sure we'll all fed up with this debate on the theatrical running time in Italy and as drinkanddestroy says, it detracts from discussing the cuts and reasons why the promised 270 min version has not happened.
Feel free to dismiss as rubbish the written down quoted times of Cahiers Du Cinema (1984), Sergio Leone (1984), Andrea Leone, Oreste de Fornari, Frayling (STDWD P.541) and by deduction the official Cannes Festival site.
I was reading an article recently that said the reason the version with Italian audio was shorter was that Italians are very animated and speak very quickly...Hmmm
I don't think the Italian theatrical release had shortened content so really the only other variable is frame rate or skipping frames. I know that some sites say the recognized worldwide rate is 24 frames per second but perhaps it's not entirely correct. I used to have a foreign film projector...
Once again, 220 min PAL = 229 min in 24fps or NTSC.
So what are we debating about?
PAL & NTSC only relate to TV DVD etc. We are talking about Leone's original version shown in Cannes and in Italy.
Numerous sources quote the running time as 220 minutes, which makes sense of the statement that 25 minutes have been added bringing the total to 245 minutes.
Stanton is trying to convince me that Leone's original theatrical version shown in Italy was 229 minutes. Makes no sense to me.
How many more times drinkanddestroy?
No no no. I don't think 9 minutes have been cut from the 229 minute version.
My best guess is it's down to a faster frame rate or skipped frames.
Remember my comment on the aspect ratio 1.85 ?
Leone was thinking about how the movie would look on TV before any filming took place.
Which leaves the question brought up by Once totally unanswered: what about these "3h40" running time that Leone and everyone else was talking about at the time?
''Once Upon a Time in America'' is not a disaster on the order of ''Heaven's Gate.'' Having been cut from 3 hours and 47 minutes, which was its running time at this year's Cannes Festival, to its present time of 2 hours and 15 minutes, it plays like a long, inscrutable trailer for what might have been an entertaining movie.
PAL & NTSC just confuse the issue. Movies can be shown with frame rates outside these standards.
My best guess is it's down to a faster frame rate or skipped frames.
Remember my comment on the aspect ratio 1.85 ?
Leone was thinking about how the movie would look on TV before any filming took place.
Ah that's interesting: I just found a review of the 2 hours version, published in 1984.
http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9801E1D6143BF932A35755C0A962948260
There are astonishingly much sources for that 220 min runtime, but there also as much sources for the 229 min runtime for the Cannes version. One must be wrong, and as we all have a 229 min version, and there was never any talk about added scenes to a 220 min version, or cut scenes from a 229 version (except censorical cuts), the only conclusion can be that all 220 min sources are most likely wrong.
Phew, now things get pretty tricky.
I have asked an Italian, but his answer adds probably to the confusion:
"I've only ever heard of the 229 min. version, but some bibliographic sources report a 227 minutes runtime and according to the website videoarcheologia.it, usually quite reliable, unlike the Warner Blu-ray and Region 1 DVD the redubbed Italian DVD edition - distributed by the same company - would have an actual runtime of "only" 224 minutes (215 PAL). But I cannot confirm."
Steinwender has researched the Italian version with 229 min.
When I check the www most articles still mention the 269 min version for Cannes this year.
In none of my posts have I used the term 2nd theatrical version or 2nd version. According to Sergio Leone, he cut 50 minutes from his 270 minute version and made a 220 minute (3hr 40) version. This may or may not be the version that was shown in theaters in Italy or at Cannes.
I've found a couple of further direct comments on the running time from Sergio Leone confirming this. I'm sceptical of newspaper and magazine writers, who in reality know very little about Sergio Leone or the movie. For the moment I'm sticking with the director of the movie, his family, official sources and Leone experts and perhaps in the next couple of months we'll get information which will clarify things.
Noodles, we are not talking here about NTSC and Pal runtimes.
Pardon - I can't believe what you're saying, drinkanddestroy or your definition of "we".
I have 2 DVD versions of OUATIA, both with running times of approx 220 minutes, similar to the one described on the following web site:
http://msb247.awardspace.com/dvd.htm (http://msb247.awardspace.com/dvd.htm)
I also have a VHS tape with a stated running time of 218 minutes together with several other versions.
Drinkanddestroy - "And that he is smiling in heaven now at the upcoming release."
On the other hand, he may be frowning upon the upcoming release, given what he wrote shortly before his death:
“Then there is the very long one that has never been edited and which lasts fifty minutes longer. Four and a half hours. But we rejected the idea of two parts on TV. It is so intricate that it has to be done in one evening. And besides, let’s be honest: this one is my version. The other perhaps explained things more clearly and it could have been done on TV in two or three parts. But the version that I prefer is this one, that bit of reclusiveness is just what I like about it.”
Notice also that he said the extra 50 minutes were never edited.
Mat
There could be a misunderstanding on "that has never been edited". My best guess is that Sergio Leone did a 270 minute version which had sound and was very roughly put together (edited). It may have had several bits that needed further editing to produce a final cut such as the mismatch of the number plates and Carol's scenes in the nursing home. This may partly explain why we are only getting a further 25 minutes.
That's what I think too. The 270 min version was never constructed. And all of Leone's claims about that version are only a rough guess how long the longer version would be after the fine-cutting. Which also means there was no music for these scenes. Which also means if re-constructed by someone else, different choices would have been made for the final version.
Like with the Seydor-cut of Pat Garrett. Some of his choices would nobody else have done except himself.
It's from Oreste De Fornari's 'Sergio Leone: The Great Italian Dream of Legendary America.' Leone discusses each of his films in a chapter called "Leone on Leone." The comments come from an interview De Fornari did with Leone in 1988.
Good point!
I'm definitely not a fan of this kind of tinkering unless the instructions by the director are very explicit (as in the case of Orson Welles' "Touch of Evil" for example) and at least some kind of approximation can be made. For me the definitive version of Pat Garrett is Peckinpah's rough cut (i.e. the TCM '88 version with the scene with Garrett's wife added back in).
We really need someone to get in touch with someone IN THE KNOW and find out what's going?
Was there anyone more in the know than Leone?
"Then there is the very long one that has never been edited and which lasts fifty minutes longer."
Straight from the lion's mouth, so to speak.
Mat
Which one else?
All in all, why not simply stop speculating and wait until it was screened in Cannes? Which is not that far now.
but its getting redundant and boring.
There is a fairly obvious not yet discussed scenario which makes sense of most of the conflicting information. Regrettably though this does mean that unless more material is added, the running time of the new "fully restored" NTSC DVD and Blu-ray will be 245 minutes.
I don't regard it as simply 16 minutes being added.
Of all the people in the world Leone should know best the running of time of his original version in 1984. He and many others with first hand knowledge said his original version was 3hrs 40 (220 minutes).
Cahiers said that after Cannes, the movie went round theaters in France then went to Italy. According to Oreste De Fornari and Frayling the running time of the theatrical version in Italy was 218 minutes. At some stage Leone came to an impasse with the Ladd group of companies and realised that his version would never be seen by audiences in America. Between Italy and the U.K. approximately 9 minutes were added to the version shown in theaters.
either way, I am sure that whatever extra material we get with the new release, it will be in addition to the 229 minutes we currently have; they will not be removing those 9 minutes under any circumstances. I'd be willing to bet any amount of money on that at 10-1 odds
Six blocks of scenes - belonging to different eras in which the film is set - reintroduced in the new version which now reaches the last 4 hours and 19 minutes:
1) dialogue between Noodles, played by Robert De Niro, and director of the cemetery, played by Louise Fletcher (scene set in 1968);
2) changing the sequence in which the car with Noodles and Max (played by James Woods) sinks and anxiety of friends who do not see resurface Noodles (1933);
3) the film producer Arnon Milchan in the role of chauffeur talks with Noodles (1933);
4) love scene (fee) between Noodles and Eve, played by Darlenne Fluegel (1933);
5) Deborah, played by Elizabeth McGovern, plays Cleopatra in Shakespeare's theater (1968);
6) Senator Bailey (New Identity Max), played by Woods, has an interview in his private study with the leading trade unionist in the past of a "rescue" by the banda of Noodles and Max (1968).
Hello People
Does anyone know if the new cut will be given a widespread run in cinemas, at least arthouses and their like?
I'd love to immerse myself in darkened theatre for 4 hours ( or thereabouts!) and gaze on a full size projection of the masterwork for a second time .
Hello People
Does anyone know if the new cut will be given a widespread run in cinemas, at least arthouses and their like?
I'd love to immerse myself in darkened theatre for 4 hours ( or thereabouts!) and gaze on a full size projection of the masterwork for a second time .
Leone: "I prefer is this one, that bit of reclusiveness is just what I like about it.” I saw the scene with Louise Fletcher. It only answered very obvious things. Sergio created his masterpiece by being to forced to whittle it down to the utmost important scenes. And it give it that "reclusiveness" or sense of mystery that keeps us intrigued and using our brain throughout the movie. Also, I dislike the razor-sharp focus of the new scenes.
But I wonder if the scene of Noodles following Deborah in the train station is in there.
Yes, it is. I've got the breakdown of the scenes here:
http://notesofafilmfanatic.com/
Thanks! I know what you mean. I've been watching the 229-minute version for over twenty years, so I suspect this version is going to take some getting used to. Did you see this in the comments section - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIuLFIm2mQQ
From this comment it sounds like a re-run of the GBU "restoration," adding scenes that aren't strictly essential to the film because they exist.Not an apt comparison. The scenes (except for the one in the grotto) were all Sergio-approved and always existed in the Italian cut. So the scenes weren't actualy "added" back in, just the new audio for the scenes that were never originally dubbed in English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6Ss-jUGbl4&feature=player_embedded#Morricone looks amazing! I guess he's going to live forever.
Not an apt comparison. The scenes (except for the one in the grotto) were all Sergio-approved and always existed in the Italian cut. So the scenes weren't actualy "added" back in, just the new audio for the scenes that were never originally dubbed in English.
However, the fact that the Grotto Scene was taken out of the Italian cut by Sergio himself is by itself a powerful argument that it should not be in the film.
Perhaps you're right in making that distinction. Let me put it this way: is the English GBU missing anything in its 161 minute version?
narrative is not everything.
Except the added scenes mainly serve narrative, or at least explanatory purposes. Only the cuts to the desert scene are strictly non-functional.
Themes already present in the shorter version.
I will happily concede that the GBU restoration is (aside from the grotto scene) closer to Leone's vision, though that's not my main point. I think the discussion here is at least loosely germane to the general topic, no need for a new thread.
How does the sound remix factor into your theory?Can't speak for Drink, but here's how it lays with me: When watching GBU, I prefer the shorter cut; when watching BBC, I prefer the standard (longer) cut.
The explanation about the construction of the mausoleum and the recording of Cockeye's tune was definitely helpful.So now the playing of Cockeye's tune in the mausoleum is diegetic? That isn't an audio memory that Noodles is experiencing, that the audience gets to share? Noodles is actually hearing it playing through some kind of amazing-for-1968 sound system cleverly hidden in the "haven"? Well, that right there ruins things for me. Not to mention the fact that its presence is "explained" in a way that raises more questions than it answers. Max had a tape of Cockeye playing his theme? A tape from a performance from 1933 or earlier? Did Cockeye cut a record once and Max saved it and committed it to tape once that format became generally available? Or was Max able to remember the tune so well that later he transcribed it for a musician who was able to perform just as Cockeye had all those years ago? And all just to be able to get to Mr. Williams' poise at the proper moment. I call BS on this whole element.
How does the sound remix factor into your theory?
I agree that the limo tailing Noodles perhaps makes things a bit too literal, and too much into a detective story; this story is more about Noodles exploring his past, than a detective story with cars following you and blowing up. So maybe the limo as shown is too literal. But I do like some explanation for why Noodles is so interested in this Bailey scandal. As it plays in the 229MV, there is really no reason for why Noodles is so interested in that story, and we get the idea that it somehow has to do with his quest, but with no justification for it.
I don't know that the limo necessarily syncs up with Bailey. Was there an additonal scene with him tracking down the plate number? It's a cool idea but done far too obviously.
Yes.
There is another added scene where Noodles sees a limo with the same plate number blow up outside the bailey mansion. That is why he is so interested in the newscast of that story -- he knows that the limo that blew up has been tailing him, and that this unfolding Bailey scandal therefore has something to do with why he was brought back
Okay, cool. That makes sense.
A) It's not "my theory." I've yet to find one person who disagrees that Leone's preferred version of GBU is the one shown in the MGM SE minus the Cave Scene.
B) I'd tried avoiding discussing sound cuz I really don't know anything about it at all. My understanding is that you can choose the old mono track, if you want the movie to sound exactly as it did in 1968; and that they changed the gunshots for the SE cuz John Jerk says the old gunshots wouldn't fit with the new remastered sound. I really don't know much about audio so I've never discussed that. (Though from what i understand the DYS dvd absolutely butchers the audio, and that bothers me, knowing that eg. the musical cues are wrong).
So, the re-inserted footage is all of inferior quality to the surrounding elements, and we get a noticeable drop in image quality every time we move from the standard cut to the newly-added scenes? That being the case, I would have preferred to have the scenes as extras and not as re-inserted footage.Are you making that assumption from the material that's on YouTube or has somebody actually confirmed this? I don't know why they would release inferior material on the Internet but that's always a possibility.
Are you making that assumption from the material that's on YouTube or has somebody actually confirmed this? I don't know why they would release inferior material on the Internet but that's always a possibility.
And concerning the shortness of the added material, I hope you all have read this: http://www.festival-cannes.fr/en/theDailyArticle/59209.html So basically they added all the cut material they could find.
I'm sorry if I'm repeating something brought up earlier in the thread.
Some more clips... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIuLFIm2mQQ
Are you making that assumption from the material that's on YouTube or has somebody actually confirmed this? I don't know why they would release inferior material on the Internet but that's always a possibility.According to what one of the restoration guys says (excerpted in MatViola's article above):
Technically, the homogeneity of the unedited scenes was the biggest problem, as unfortunately the negatives for these scenes no longer exist. The only materials available were discarded strips of working positives which had been badly preserved.
Making this task even more difficult was the fact that the working positives had been printed without particular care, as originally they were part of the working copies which circulated between the assistant editors and sound editors as a work reference. The images in these sequences were ruined, not just by their poor state of preservation, but also through their use as working copies.
Still, they should have been supplied as extras on a new DVD/Blu-ray, not re-integrated into the film.
According to what one of the restoration guys says (excerpted in MatViola's article above):Thanks. A sad story, to be sure. It's incredible how people (in 1984!) or Leone himself did not preserve the original negatives.
----
Looking at the clips on Youtube the loss in quality is evident. At first I didn't think the Youtube stuff was an accurate representation of the final images, but after reading the quote above it is what I now fear.
The recent Metropolis "restoration" did something similar, intercutting footage of markedly inferior quality into the standard cut. The contrast was jarring, making the viewing experience really unpleasant.I've only seen the movie once - the 2010 restoration on a big screen with live music - so I can't really compare it with the better known version, but I didn't mind the newly added material so much. Sure, I noticed the huge difference in the image quality but it didn't really bother me. I'm sure though that the case will be different with OUATIA as I've seen the picture before (and the color is such a huge factor).
Since I seem like a close-minded ass through this thread, I'll clarify my position. I'm not uninterested in seeing the restored version. However, based on evidence presented, I'm very skeptical that it will be worthwhile.
Okay, I think I'm about to make d&d's day. I found the following article (in French) which has some very interesting info, including a quote from Scorsese saying he knew Leone wanted these 20 minutes added back in. It also mentions the possibility of adding another 20 minutes to it in the near future. Alas, the article also talks a little about the graininess of the footage (though the translation isn't so good).
Here's the link: http://www.ecranlarge.com/article-details-22911.php (http://www.ecranlarge.com/article-details-22911.php)
Here's the translation:
Announced for many months with varying lengths of time, assembly of novel Once Upon a Time in America was projected with great fanfare as part of Cannes Classics including the presence of Robert De Niro, James Woods, Elizabeth McGovern and Jennifer Connelly ( who made his film debut at 13 years for this film).
Sergio Leone's film, restored by the Cinematheque of Bologna, has been discovered for the first time in a version of 4:13. So it's 24 minutes that were uncovered novel with a careful integration even if unable to work on the material of the first generation makes it perfectly detectable new sequences. Blame it on a grain, a calibration and a definition necessarily different mounting film that we know.
Very active in this restaurant since it is its foundation, The Film Foundation, which funded the transaction through the generous donation of $ 2 million from the fashion house Gucci, Martin Scorsese told our colleagues in the World: "In the case of Once Upon a Time in America, I know that Leone wanted those twenty minutes are restored. "
We are thus dealing with the version closest to the present time - Scorsese mentioned the possibility in the near future to add another twenty minutes - of what is now called the director's cut of Once Upon a Time in America. If, again, the visual changes between the sequences is detrimental to the aesthetic harmony of the work, it is undeniable that some of the new scenes provide insight essential to the story.
If the appearance of Louise Fletcher, so far only credited in the credits, as director of the cemetery, was far more the media's failure, it is far from that was most lacking in the story. Unlike the character of Eve, the prostitute Noodles (De Niro) meets in a bar, after raping Deborah (Elizabeth McGovern) in the car. A long sequence vital to discover the dismay of Noodles, regretting his act in a night of love almost pathetic when he tries to imagine Deborah instead of Eve - he even gives his name. Right after, we also discover Deborah have a coffee before catching his train, with his face still shocked by the tragic event happened. A tragedy of the two characters who suffer in their own way and the drama that gives meaning to the much heavier exchanged brief look on the station platform.
In the final moments of the film, we discover a scene now essential to understand the impossible situation in which there is the Secretary of State Bailey (thus verily Max played by James Woods). The footage shows James Conway (Treat Williams) forcing Bailey to sign papers making him almost lose everything and suggesting starting to end his days to avoid scandal unborn awaited his appearance in court. The desire to end Max and by the hand of his old friend, is so much more understandable. And the scene to show that the big winner in history is the character of Conway, obvious metaphor for an America where workers control anyone, holds the real power.
Among other additions, less vital to the enrichment of the story, we remain skeptical about lengthening the sequence where the dips Noodles car into the sea showing his friends worried about not seeing him rise to the surface. It is not known whether the sequence was originally intended to hear what the actors were saying, but then rise in the state, only the music of Morricone is present and the minutes are not the most successful.
The sequence of discussion between Noodles and his driver (played by the producer, Arnon Milchan) before they go out to dinner with Deborah, can show a big difference in perspective on life between the two men and a rising tensions that will resonate in the driver's reaction when he condemns rape by her boss.
Finally, the reunion between Noodles and Deborah are now preceded by a scene where we see Noodles discover the actress on stage in the process of interpreting the role of Cleopatra.
The discovery of this new version of Once Upon a Time in America, was in any event, a highlight of the festival. And especially the opportunity to realize, if any were needed, how the last movie of Sergio Leone is a monumental work and may be the best film to be screened at the festival this year. When you think that the reception was lukewarm at its first presentation in May 1984.
Still, they should have been supplied as extras on a new DVD/Blu-ray, not re-integrated into the film.
With all this talk of film preservation, there is one point I have to make that is not really related but I have been thinking about it a lot lately and I feel it is at least somewhat related. Here goes:
It is great that with the advent of dvd's and widescreen tv's, movies are now generally being released in their original aspect ratio.
But what really irks me is that usually when I watch a dvd for a movie whose original AR is 1.85:1, the picture fills up the entire screen of my hdtv. Since hdtv's have a 1.78:1 AR, this means that they are chopping a bit off the sides of the picture! I know, the difference between 1.78:1 and 1.85:1 is very little; we "only" lose 4% off the sides. So 2% off the right side and 2% off the left side seems to be no big deal (and it is certainly far better than pan and scanning, which completely destroyed a widescreen movie). But it just irks me why then studios do this. Showing the full picture of a 1.85:1 movie on a 1.78:1 tv requires putting TINY black bars on top and bottom of the screen -- just a small fraction the size of the very large black bars that we are happy to live with horizontally for 2.35:1 movies, and vertically for 4:3 movies. If we are happy to live with the huge black bars for letterboxed or pillarboxd movies, then why do they think we wouldn't be happy living with tiny horizontal bars for 1.85:1 movies?
I think anybody here would prefer the full picture + tiny horizontal black lines, rather than filling the screen at the cost of having 2% of the picture chopped on each side. But I guess they care about mainstream idiots more than real fans like us.
What makes this even worse is that the studios should have learned their lesson by this point: how over time, formats of viewing technology continuously change; and that changing the original features of a movie for the sake of "accommodating" a particular time period can lead to permanently screwing up a work of art.
For example, what if in 20 years from now, the AR for tv's change to 2:1. For movies that were released in 1.85:1 but the dvd's in 1.78:1, will they have preserved the original theatrical aspect ratio for future home viewing formats? What will they do now to accommodate these theoretical 2:1 tv's -- will they say, "the difference is too big, we can't cut that much to fill the screen; rather, we will live with the black bars on the sides"? or will they say, "let's just cut a bit off the top and bottom to fill the 2:1 screen"! Will they use the real 1.85:1 version as the reference print, or will these butchered 1.78:1 dvd's become the reference print?
Bottom line: home viewing in general these days is amazing (especially compared to what we had just a few years ago ; no choice except pan and scanned VHS's). With new dvd's and blu rays being released every day, mostly in original AR's, we have great access and it's wonderful. I am very thankful for that, and I know that if the worst problem we ever have is having 2% chopped off each side of 1.85:1 movies, we'll be in good shape. But I still think it is wrong; studios should have learned by now to follow a simple rule in all situations: JUST KEEP THE PICTURE AS RELEASED; WE ALWAYS WANT TO SEE THE FULL PICTURE THAT WAS SHOT, SO KEEP IT IN EXACTLY THE INTENDED ASPECT RATIO, AND WE WILL HAPPILY ACCEPT THE BLACK BARS THAT COME ALONG WITH IT. JUST KEEP THE MOVIE IN THE EXACT ASPECT RATIO IN WHICH IT WAS INTENDED, PERIOD!
Actually they usually (but not always) open the image up slightly from 1.85 to 1.78 so you are actually getting a little more information top and bottom on the DVD/BD release.
d&d,
I don't know any more than you do. I'm sure we're talking about the same 40 minutes as before, but why it wasn't already restored, I can't say. I'm sure that if Scorsese "knows" that Leone wanted to restore the first 20 minutes, he must also "know" that Leone wanted to restore the other 20 minutes. Otherwise, he wouldn't be thinking about adding it back in. Maybe the footage is more degraded and it's going to take longer to restore it. Who knows?
But I'd like to ask Scorsese how he "knows" Leone wanted it restored. Does he "know" what Leone himself said about it in 1988? Can someone get Marty on the phone please?
Mat
d&d,
Now you're just getting downright greedy. >:D
Mat
Still, they should have been supplied as extras on a new DVD/Blu-ray, not re-integrated into the film.They wouldn't have got funding to do so if that's all they were doing. They needed to added them back as a so called "Director's Cut" in order to get the movie into cinemas to recoup the cost. They did a similar thing with Close Encounters and Alien.
Actually they usually (but not always) open the image up slightly from 1.85 to 1.78 so you are actually getting a little more information top and bottom on the DVD/BD release.Correct!
They wouldn't have got funding to do so if that's all they were doing. They needed to added them back as a so called "Director's Cut" in order to get the movie into cinemas to recoup the cost. They did a similar thing with Close Encounters and Alien.It isn't a question of recouping costs, it's a matter of creating a new property that generates revenues now and into the future. In the case of OUATIA, we are now 28 years into the life of its copyright. Copyright laws vary from country to country, of course, but I don't think there is anyplace where copyright is granted in perpetuity. Copyrights always expire. Rights holders are therefore happy when a new property is created that effectively extends the life of their copyright. The new "Restoration" cut or whatever they're going to call it is going to have a copyright life that begins in 2012.
It isn't a question of recouping costs, it's a matter of creating a new property that generates revenues now and into the future. In the case of OUATIA, we are now 28 years into the life of its copyright. Copyright laws vary from country to country, of course, but I don't think there is anyplace where copyright is granted in perpetuity. Copyrights always expire. Rights holders are therefore happy when a new property is created that effectively extends the life of their copyright. The new "Restoration" cut or whatever they're going to call it is going to have a copyright life that begins in 2012.
It is naive to think that the 229 minute version will always be available to us. Anyone who has watched what Beatrice Welles has been up to with her father's films knows that rights holders can suppress earlier versions of a film in favor of a later "restoration." In our future world of streaming video, when DVD players are no longer being manufactured, the version of a film that you will be able to watch is the one the rights holders will have chosen for you.
What's the source of those pics?
Without being cynical, I don't what to think of this, to tell you the truth. It's always nice that a great film gets attention so it's not forgotten, but sometimes I wish they would just have these extra scenes as a bonus on the DVD. "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly" is kind of ruined for me with the new scenes they put in (thankfully, you can skip right over them). From what I've read (and who knows what to believe) Leone was happy with the 4 hour version of "America" as is. If he was still alive to do this stuff himself, I'd probably feel a little more positive about it. Such a great film...why mess with it...
But I guess I should keep quiet until I actually see the new version...maybe it'll surprise me.
the long version of GBU is actually Leone's version (besides the Cave Scene); United Artists cut those scenes for the American release. If you have a problem with the longer version, don't blame the restoration, blame Leone.Let me explain what I meant - how can you blame Leone, dead for 14 years or so by then, for bringing back actors 35 years later to overdub their voices, and come up with a guy to imitate Lee Van Cleef's voice after he's dead as well? That's what I'm talking about,,,it's not the scenes, it's the older/different voices that have a jarring effect to me. And since they weren't overdubbed to begin with because they were cut by UA, I would think Leone's hardly the one to blame.
Let me explain what I meant - how can you blame Leone, dead for 14 years or so by then, for bringing back actors 35 years later to overdub their voices, and come up with a guy to imitate Lee Van Cleef's voice after he's dead as well? That's what I'm talking about,,,it's not the scenes, it's the older/different voices that have a jarring effect to me. And since they weren't overdubbed to begin with because they were cut by UA, I would think Leone's hardly the one to blame.
Much as I like all the stuff that's going to be put in, there's something which I hope they take out, which is on the DVD and Blu-Ray editions. Namely the lame flashback during the last meeting between Noodles and Senator Bailey at the party. This was put in for the TV showings I believe, but never featured in the European cinema release. It always irritates me and I'm sure it was added by 'other hands'. I'm lucky to have the 'original' version on Laserdisc (having got rid of my VHS copies some years ago). It's inclusion works directly against Noodle's dialogue and the intimate nature of the scene, with it's quiet conclusion. Does anybody know? BTW I'm equally annoyed by the scene of Charles Bronson getting up after the opening gunfight in 'Once Upon a Time in the West'!
Very interesting point. Is the fact that the flashback is a later insert confirmed anywhere?
Regarding the scene where Charles Bronson gets up from the shootout, again I am happy to see the elegance and artistry of the camera movements(the close up of Charles Bronson's eye as he wakes out of consciousness etc)
Regarding the scene where Charles Bronson gets up from the shootout, again I am happy to see the elegance and artistry of the camera movements(the close up of Charles Bronson's eye as he wakes out of consciousness etc)
The Noodles and Max flashback scene was in the original version shown at Cannes in 1984. it was restored with the first DVD release. It was mostly violent scenes that were cut from the Cannes version. I don't know why they had cut the flashback. I think the scene will work better with the other restored scenes, especially Treat Williams.
Original Negatives and Restored
there is more information on all four sides in restored
I just hope they going to release movie on bluray in the intended original aspect ratio 1.85:1
restored scenes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIuLFIm2mQQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIuLFIm2mQQ)
(scene) Noodles and the director of the cemetery in Riverdale (Louise Fletcher)
Appearance of an ominous black Cadillac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a2anLcFXeo&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a2anLcFXeo&feature=related)
3) Don't get your hopes up about having the movie released in 1.85:1. Almost all dvd/BR of 1.85:1 movies seem to crop it to fit the 1.78:1 hdtv screen. It's totally ridiculous; I think any real fan would prefer tiny black bars on top and bottom rather than having a bit of the sides of the picture cut off, but the fact is that that's what the idiots do. So I wouldn't get my hopes up about actually getting a 1.85:1 version of the movie >:(
So now the playing of Cockeye's tune in the mausoleum is diegetic? That isn't an audio memory that Noodles is experiencing, that the audience gets to share? Noodles is actually hearing it playing through some kind of amazing-for-1968 sound system cleverly hidden in the "haven"? Well, that right there ruins things for me. Not to mention the fact that its presence is "explained" in a way that raises more questions than it answers. Max had a tape of Cockeye playing his theme? A tape from a performance from 1933 or earlier? Did Cockeye cut a record once and Max saved it and committed it to tape once that format became generally available? Or was Max able to remember the tune so well that later he transcribed it for a musician who was able to perform just as Cockeye had all those years ago? And all just to be able to get to Mr. Williams' poise at the proper moment. I call BS on this whole element.
I just watched the scene in the mausoleum again (the scene in the 229MV, not the restored scene). The music of Cockeye's Tune is definitely playing in the mausoleum. It starts when Noodles opens the door, stops when he closes it, then since he is looking around to see what the hell is going on, he opens the door again, it starts again, and finally he shuts the door again and it stops.
So it was definitely playing on some sort of sensor -- it played when the door opened, and stopped when the door shut. Noodles doesn't know what the hell is going on and is looking around for the source of it. In the restored scene we find out that a tape of it was sent to the cemetery to play in the mausoleum, but in the 229MV it remains a mystery, just like the whole mystery of who erected the mausoleum. Whether you prefer the 229MV or the restored version, the music is definitely playing in the mausoleum.
I noticed another interesting point -- as the music is playing, and Noodles is looking at the names on the tombs of each of his friends, at one point the music switches from Cockeye's Tune to the Main Theme of OUATIA. Obviously, the theme was not playing in the mausoleum! I guess the theme playing there is meant imply that Noodles is recalling his childhood: as Cockeye's song is playing in the mausoleum and Noodles is looking around, he is recalling his childhood, symbolized by the playing of the main theme. Maybe the fact that Cockeye's Tune turns into the Main Theme is also a reference to the whole idea of the mixing of dream and reality, Noodles's real past with his present dreams, and the whole idea that cinema is a dream
Thanks for checking ;)
In the restored scene we find out that a tape of it was sent to the cemetery to play in the mausoleum, but in the 229MV it remains a mystery, just like the whole mystery of who erected the mausoleum.
I am so glad the extended version clarifies this. I had always found the music rather awkward in this scene because there seemed to be no explanation for it other than background music.
But it destroys some of the film's narrative brilliance. For that alone it is a very "bad" scene. I wish Leone had never shot it. It wasn't in the shooting script.It does not destroy any of the film's narrative brilliance. Admittedly, it would have been more of a shock to hear Harmonica's instrument in the tavern after not seeing the scene where he 'rises from the dead' at the station, BUT I am happy to see every reel that Leone shot. And to be honest I am sure he if he was around will smile indulgently knowing that people want to see every inch of film he shot. I remember reading in Christopher Frayling's biography where he quoted Leone as saying that when he was dead Leone would want to be remembered as entertaining people. Lets not split hairs too much abt what Leone wanted or not wanted. He wanted to entertain, mesmerise and fascinate us with his masterful mise en scene and elegant camera angles :)))
It does not destroy any of the film's narrative brilliance.
1) I never really picked up on that point of the music playing in the mausoleum until I read it somewhere (I believe in STDWD). Perhaps they should have used a different audio track: I mean, when music is diegetic is sounds different, but in this scene it is sounds like it's on the same audio track that rest of the score does (and the same track that the Main Theme -- which is definitely not diagetic -- is playing in the same scene). I am not sure if I am using the right words, but you know what I mean, how the music sounds different when it is diegetic/internal/playing IN the scene, as opposed to playing OVER the scene as most of a film score usually does. So maybe you can argue that Cockeye's song in the mausoleum should have sounded different than the rest of the score. But I guess that Leone had De Niro open and close the door multiple times in order to emphasize the point.I don't know if it is a Leone thing or an Italian film industry thing but this kind of thing comes up a lot in SL's films. I remember watching the trading post scene in OUATITW for the first time and enjoying what was obviously the non-diegetic harmonica music, only to have the camera suddenly reveal that Harmonica was playing the harmonica in the scene. An American film would never have done the scene like that; American soundtracks always assign different "sonic values"--for lack of a better way to put it--to diegetic and non-diegetic sounds. Thus it is never possible to confuse the two in American films. I've often wondered whether Leone was even aware of the diegetic/non-diegetic issue in the trading post scene, or if he was in fact aware of it but was purposely playing with audience understanding of where the music was coming from.
Why did they rush it to Cannes 2012 if they may soon have more material?As I've mentioned before, the film's 30th anniversary is in 2014. Getting it to Cannes this year makes it possible to get out a new DVD/Blu-ray to all markets by 2014. If there is then additional material that can be used for a "restored-restored "version, there is still time to make the deadline for the 35th anniversary of the film.
Drink, Warners and the Leone family don't love you, they love your money. They are very happy to sell you the same title as many times as they can.
I don't know if it is a Leone thing or an Italian film industry thing but this kind of thing comes up a lot in SL's films. I remember watching the trading post scene in OUATITW for the first time and enjoying what was obviously the non-diegetic harmonica music, only to have the camera suddenly reveal that Harmonica was playing the harmonica in the scene. An American film would never have done the scene like that; American soundtracks always assign different "sonic values"--for lack of a better way to put it--to diegetic and non-diegetic sounds. Thus it is never possible to confuse the two in American films. I've often wondered whether Leone was even aware of the diegetic/non-diegetic issue in the trading post scene, or if he was in fact aware of it but was purposely playing with audience understanding of where the music was coming from.
In the case of the crypt scene, there is no performer to pan to, and there is no visual representation of where the sound might be coming from. But it is now obvious, due to the inserted footage in the scene, that Leone intended us to understand that music was playing in the vault. I have seen the film many times since 1985, in cinemas and home video, and have never read the scene that way. And I have to say, the scene has been diminished in my eyes because of this over-explicitness. Until Groggy told me how he read the scene, I was happy to believe that the sene was about something else--that Noodles is having an epiphany of sorts, that he is contemplating the Ineffable, perhaps, or the Thingness in things, or whatever. But to find out that he's just checking out the sound system in the crypt is rather deflating. Without the new footage, it could still be a matter of interpretation. Groggy could read the scene his way, and I, while acknowledging the validity of the possibility of that reading, could have still read it my preferred way. But no more. Possibilities are closed off by the explicitness, thus impoverishing what had been a very rich scene.
In the case of the crypt scene, there is no performer to pan to, and there is no visual representation of where the sound might be coming from. But it is now obvious, due to the inserted footage in the scene, that Leone intended us to understand that music was playing in the vault. I have seen the film many times since 1985, in cinemas and home video, and have never read the scene that way. And I have to say, the scene has been diminished in my eyes because of this over-explicitness. Until Groggy told me how he read the scene, I was happy to believe that the sene was about something else--that Noodles is having an epiphany of sorts, that he is contemplating the Ineffable, perhaps, or the Thingness in things, or whatever. But to find out that he's just checking out the sound system in the crypt is rather deflating. Without the new footage, it could still be a matter of interpretation. Groggy could read the scene his way, and I, while acknowledging the validity of the possibility of that reading, could have still read it my preferred way. But no more. Possibilities are closed off by the explicitness, thus impoverishing what had been a very rich scene.
I don't think Leone was trying to trick us into thinking the music in the mausoleum was non-diegetic; I think Leoen tried to make it clear that it was diegetic all along, with the bit with the music starting and stopping on what was some sort of sensor as De Niro opened and closing the door (and as he looks around I think he sees some sort of vent where it is "piped in.") And Leone couldn't know at the time of filming that he'd be forced to cut the scene with Louise Fletcher (explaining the origin of the tape) due to timing concerns. Therefore, I don't think Leone ever intended to make it ambiguous as to whether the music was no diegetic. Maybe for just a moment, yes, as it started as soon as Noodles opens the door; but as soon we realize it starts and stops as Noodles opens and closes the door, it's clear that it is diegetic, so I certainly don't think Leone intended it to be ambiguous enough that we wouldn't figure it out by the end of the scene, cuz he figured we'd see the scene with Louise Fletcher.
That being said, I really don't care for the Fletcher scene. I'm not a big Louise Fletcher fan and really don't find her acting in that sequence too impressive. I like it the way it is. It's very clear that Noodles has been summoned back and that he's thinking through everything right from his first contact with Moe. The Fletcher scene takes away from the subtlety of Noodles' process of understanding and piecing everything together. I think with the editing issues of the last three films, one of the things that resulted is that SL has quite a bit of things happening off camera. I think it's a brilliant consequence. It makes his cinema more interesting and involves the viewer more and allows for different interpretation.
Restoration process
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The extended scenes doesn't look that bad after all, they highlighted new scenes color corected brightness contrast and all that, well all we have to wait for the blu-ray release and see.
That being said, I really don't care for the Fletcher scene. I'm not a big Louise Fletcher fan and really don't find her acting in that sequence too impressive. I like it the way it is. It's very clear that Noodles has been summoned back and that he's thinking through everything right from his first contact with Moe. The Fletcher scene takes away from the subtlety of Noodles' process of understanding and piecing everything together. I think with the editing issues of the last three films, one of the things that resulted is that SL has quite a bit of things happening off camera. I think it's a brilliant consequence. It makes his cinema more interesting and involves the viewer more and allows for different interpretation.Another thing to consider: in 229, immediately after Noodles takes the key that's hanging on the crypt wall, there's a cut to him opening the locker in the train depot; this transition is now spoiled by the inserted material with Fletcher.
if they are releasing it to the public so soon after Cannes, I guess it is safe to assume that they will be showing the Cannes version, and they have not (yet) restored any more footage? (In the French interview that Mat Viola translated on this thread, Scorcese mentioned something about the possibility of restoring 20-25 minutes in addition to the 20-25 minutes that was already restored for Cannes, which would coincide with the 45-50 minutes of extra material that Leone wanted in the movie).
Whether or not you like that restored scene in the cemetery, I think Louise Fletcher's acting in that scene is wonderful.I love the way Leone shot Louise Fletcher. It seemed that she might have something to do with the whole mystery. It was done in a very subtle way. But her acting was a bit stilted.
---
With the part in that scene involving the limo and the license plate (plus the later scene with it blowing up), this movie really seems more like a PI story; in the 229MV, while there of course is the whole element of mystery involving who sent Noodles the letters, I think it seems like much more of the internal, dream-like mystery. For some reason -- maybe it's just cuz I am not used to that scene -- I feel that maybe the limo and writing down the license plate makes it too much of a regular, literal PI story. There are other elements of the scene that I feel are important (eg. some of the stuff with Fletcher, and the limo blowing up explaining why Noodles cares so much about the news story on the tv at Fat Moe's), but maybe that part with writing down the license plate is a bit overdoing it.
I'd still like to see every minute of deleted footage put back into the four and a half hour or so version of the movie that Leone originally wanted :)
Paris France restore version premiere for the public
You also why Friday, June 22, seven persons were given an appointment in quiet Piazza Maggiore in Bologna (and have left it the night at 2:30), Italian for the first (after the only other presentation at Festival Cannes ) the restoration of " Once Upon a Time in America ", an evening in anticipation of the festival The Cinema Rediscovered , the Film Library of Bologna promotes twenty-six years that kicks off Saturday, June 23, ending Saturday June 30, 2012.Say what? ???
ONCE UPON A TIME IN AMERICA 1984 RESTORED EXTENDED VERSION Premiere At The Piazza Maggiore A Bologna 2012
C'ERA UNA VOLTA IN AMERICA 1984 Restaurato Piazza Maggiore A Bologna 2012
Only disappointment is that it's not in the original aspect ratio 1.85:1 left and right sides are still crop i compare my DVD and HDTV versions to the early restored studio preparation version and the one premiere in italy, sure you can see the difference
Comparison between HDTV - DVD and early Restore Extended versions and Italy premiere
I analyze images measures the first and third image in 1.78:1 the second image in approx 1.93:1
May be it's to early to say i guess theatrical and video release can be different we'll see upon Blu-ray release later
Another thing to consider: in the 229 version, immediately after Noodles takes the key that's hanging on the crypt wall, there's a cut to him opening the locker in the train depot; this transition is now spoiled by the inserted material with Fletcher.
So I don't know if this has been asked, but does anyone know when the new extended version of OUATIA will be available to us proletariate??!!
Thanks for the post and images, Derbent 500. I'm sure most of us would love to know a bit more and any more information you can supply would be greatly appreciated.
I noticed that in May 2012, prior to seeing the extended version at Cannes, Robert De Niro gave an 8 minute interview in English to TV5Monde.
He reveals that Martin Scorcese gave him (and probably others) a low quality DVD of the additional scenes.
In the interview he talks about
The Restoration
The Hoods (Arnon Milchan gave him a copy to read and he then realized that he had read the book many years earlier when he was a child. He found the book very interesting and real with a ring of truth)
Working with Sergio Leone
Jewish gangsters
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xr8rjc_robert-de-niro-on-tv5monde-the-french-speaking-international-channel_fun (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xr8rjc_robert-de-niro-on-tv5monde-the-french-speaking-international-channel_fun)
first image from dvd and the second newly restored extended print studio preparation without color corecttion and other effects, more information on all four sides newly extended print
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xr8rjc_robert-de-niro-on-tv5monde-the-french-speaking-international-channel_fun (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xr8rjc_robert-de-niro-on-tv5monde-the-french-speaking-international-channel_fun)
There's quite a bit more to the Bailey and Jimmy scene than I first thought. Bailey obviously has health and digestive problems - he drinks milk throughout the scene. I used to think that Jimmy persuaded Bailey to sign the papers by promising that, after Bailey's death, his family would be able to keep some money. However it's now made clear that additionally if Bailey doesn't sign the papers, his son would be murdered.This is a scene like the one in the grotto cut from GBU--interesting to see, but unnecessary. Just as it isn't important to know where Tuco found his three friends--or even that they are in fact "friends", or at least acquaintances of long standing--it isn't really necessary to know the details of Bailey's deal with Jimmy--or even the fact that there IS a deal. The important matter is, as you rightly suggest, what occurs between Bailey and Noodles in the following scene.
Jimmy does not vanish in the 229MV! we see himon the tv in Fat Moe's during the newscast after Bailey's car was blown up. so we see that he is still around and involved with the union-political shit in 1968.
Yes, but that's not enough. in the 229 min version his role is either too big or too small.
(To be sure, the question of why he isn't running away did not occur to me previously).Exactly. We don't need explanations for things we never wondered about.
I am not saying this is an essential scene, but I don't think it's useless or hurts the movie in any way.You are going to follow one scene of two guys talking in a room together with ANOTHER scene of two guys talking in a room together--and it's the same room! Man, am I glad that you aren't directing movies.
You are going to follow one scene of two guys talking in a room together with ANOTHER scene of two guys talking in a room together--and it's the same room!
You are going to follow one scene of two guys talking in a room together with ANOTHER scene of two guys talking in a room together--and it's the same room! Man, am I glad that you aren't directing movies.
Any editor would tell you that one of those scenes has to go. It's easy to choose in this case--cut the one that doesn't play.
I have to see the actual scene and how it works in the film's context before I can judge it. But so far it seems to me the only new scene which could improve the film.
Maybe the Eve scene, but not for Eve, only for Noodles.
Otherwise, frankly said, I would prefer a shorter, and not a longer version of OuTA.
video provided by Gucci and the Film Foundation narated by Martin ScorseseThanks for the link Derbent 5000. Hopefully all who are interested will be able to see the extended version in theaters or on disc soon.
http://www.gucci.com/us/worldofgucci/articles/once-upon-a-time-in-america-gucci-restoration (http://www.gucci.com/us/worldofgucci/articles/once-upon-a-time-in-america-gucci-restoration)
Oooops...needs more work:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2012/aug/03/sergio-leone-once-upon-time-america?newsfeed=true
Oooops...needs more work:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2012/aug/03/sergio-leone-once-upon-time-america?newsfeed=true
Oooops...needs more work:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2012/aug/03/sergio-leone-once-upon-time-america?newsfeed=true
TV5monde also did an interview with James Woods recently (in broken French):
While there has been no official announcement from the Leone estate, or Gucci and Martin Scorsese's Film Foundation who have been closely involved in the restoration, it is understood that after the Cannes screening it was agreed that more work, including on the audio track, would be beneficial for the newly inserted scenes.
That work is not expected to be completed until the autumn and Once Upon a Time in America in its latest guise will not be back on the film festival circuit until the winter of this year or spring of 2013.
Here are two email contacts for the company; if anyone wants to email them in Italian and let us know what they have to say, specifiocally regarding an America dvd/blu ray release
Restored through funding by Gucci and The Film Foundation, and in partnership with Cineteca di Bologna at L’Immagine Ritrovata Laboratory, Andrea Leone Films, The Film Foundation, and Regency Enterprises. 229 min.
Saturday, October 13, 2012, 7:15 p.m., Theater 1, T1 (Introduced by Robert De Niro)
This is on the board at MoMA for today:
I'd looked earlier at the calendar and seen the title listed, but since they were reporting a running time of 229 I assumed they were screening the standard version. Now it appears it's the new extended cut, but the info comes too late to be of any use for me.
Sorry, Drink.
It does say 229 minutes. Why do you think they are showing the longer version? I mean, I know it says that it was restored and all, but does it really make sense that the USA premiere of a version of a movie that millions of people are anticipating is at MoMA??? That's strange.Millions of people? Drink, now I KNOW you are on drugs.
Millions of people? Drink, now I KNOW you are on drugs.
I'm guessing the 229 is what some idiot at MoMA put down after looking up the film on some kind of list. The fact that the show is playing as part of MoMA's program of a film restorations, and that the source of the film is credited to Andreas Leone, AND that DeNiro was supposed to personally introduce it leads me to believe that what they were showing was NOT the 229 minute version.
Millions of people? Drink, now I KNOW you are on drugs.
I'm guessing the 229 is what some idiot at MoMA put down after looking up the film on some kind of list. The fact that the show is playing as part of MoMA's program of a film restorations, and that the source of the film is credited to Andrea Leone, AND that DeNiro was supposed to personally introduce it leads me to believe that what they were showing was NOT the 229 minute version.
It was the "European theatrical cut," or the film as it appeared on the two-DVD set.
The new Blu-ray will sell 3,000 units, tops (in the U.S.).
OK. Glad I didn't go then. I still wish those MoMA guys would write less confusing copy, though.
It was the "European theatrical cut," or the film as it appeared on the two-DVD set. DeNiro spoke briefly--of course--and did say that he worked a year on the picture, and that Sergio seemed to never want to stop making the movie, the implication being so great was his enthusiasm for it. I will say this: I saw OUATIA at MOMA about five years ago, and this didn't seem to be in better shape than I remember that print being, although it's quite possible the quality of the DVD has obscured my sense of its quality on the big screen. Maybe it was just the projector's illumination, but it seemed fairly dark at times. MOMA's presentation of Scorsese's restoration of OUATITW a few years back was a noticeable upgrade over my previous theatre-going experiences of that film. Almost forgot: Burt Young was in attendance, and stood up to good applause prior to DeNiro's appearance.
That's why I suggested the number. 3,000 seems like the safe estimate for "classic films" (those more than 20 years old). Twilight Time (and I'm guessing others) don't take chances (they have to pay for the license up front). If OUATIA had never been released on Blu-ray before I'd guess higher, but I don't think there are that many people who are going to buy the blu-ray twice.
Let's say they actually sell twice as many units as I guess, or triple. That's still under 10,000. As far as potential viewers are concerned (home video plus special screenings plus festivals but not TV), maybe at most they could reach 40-50,000. Even granting 100,000, we are still nowhere near the "millions" mentioned.
... on a special channel "Sergio Leone HD"...
Sky.it has given a date of Dec 7, 2012 for the new Blu-ray and DVD to be followed later by a box set of both new and old versions.
----
Several sites are reporting that the new version will premiere on Cubovision - TV Telecom Italy (also available on PCs, tablets and smartphones) on Oct 25 and on a special channel "Sergio Leone HD" on Oct 30, 2012.
Anyone yet figured out the significance of the tractor and bucket behind the garbage truck?
SPOILER: Some may prefer not to know what is in the extended version or to see all the additional scenes in full. If so, please do not read further or click on the following link. Four days ago La Stampa.it uploaded an item about the additional scenes and a video of over 20 minutes showing the additional scenes in full. After the gang go swimming in a car and come to the surface, there is a nearby dredger with a large bucket containing waste and we cut to Noodles and a tractor with a bucket containing waste behind a garbage truck in 1968. Full scenes of the exploding car, the matching number plates and Noodles meeting Eve etc.
http://tinyurl.com/9xywmlx (http://tinyurl.com/9xywmlx)
Even in the original version with an additional 50 minutes or in the shooting script, Noodles' arrival outside Bailey's mansion for the first time is not explained.
...he's received an invitation to a party there, it makes sense that he's be outside a few days before...
What's up with the awful use of music in some of those scenes? Drowns out Max's cries for Noodles after driving off the dock, and it completely ruins the mood when Noodles meets Eve and asks to call her Deborah. It makes it feel like a playful scene when really it's hopeless and sorrowful.
SPOILER: Some may prefer not to know what is in the extended version or to see all the additional scenes in full. If so, please do not read further or click on the following link. Four days ago La Stampa.it uploaded an item about the additional scenes and a video of over 20 minutes showing the additional scenes in full. After the gang go swimming in a car and come to the surface, there is a nearby dredger with a large bucket containing waste and we cut to Noodles and a tractor with a bucket containing waste behind a garbage truck in 1968. Full scenes of the exploding car, the matching number plates and Noodles meeting Eve etc.
La Scampa.it video: http://tinyurl.com/9xywmlx (http://tinyurl.com/9xywmlx)
What's up with the awful use of music in some of those scenes? Drowns out Max's cries for Noodles after driving off the dock, and it completely ruins the mood when Noodles meets Eve and asks to call her Deborah. It makes it feel like a playful scene when really it's hopeless and sorrowful.
Also, I'm still completely not cool with meeting Eve interjecting between the rape and the train station scene. Judging from the clips, I think it's going to really ruin the flow of my favorite sequence. I'm excited for this new restoration to come out, but for the most part I think I'll be remaining partial to the 226 min. cut I'm used to.
It does seem a bit odd not to hear Max's voice and the accompanying sounds of the water and the dredger but there isn't any dialogue for this scene in the script.
The meeting with Eve and the departure of Deborah have gone through quite a few changes. In the book Noodles discovers that Deborah is planning to leave for Hollywood for a small dancing part in a musical a couple of days before their date at the restaurant.
He meets her at the theater after her matinee performance at about 5:30 pm and they head back from the restaurant fairly soon afterwards as she has an evening performance at 8.00 pm at the theater. On the way back she reveals that she has loved a peaceful conservative businessman for a good many years and she hopes to marry him and stay in Hollywood. After attacking her in the car, Noodles goes back to his hotel room, gets drunk and the following day watches Deborah holding hands with a man and getting on a train for Hollywood.
Noodles gets drunk again, ends up at a speakeasy on 52nd street, tells a hostess that he tried to rape a girl and goes outside. There he meets a streetwalker whom he calls Deborah and has sex with in a nearby hotel. He doesn't meet Eve until much later when she is auditioning for a dancing part in a show at the Eden.
In the movie I think it's intended that Noodles meets Deborah at the theater after her evening performance, they go to the restaurant, spend time on the beach, drive back, he rapes her and he gets out of the car in the early morning.
It's night when he meets Eve at speakeasy on 52nd street so presumably after his date with Deborah he wanders about all day getting drunk. They go back to his hotel room, which is the same room as Eve is murdered in at the beginning of the movie, and he wakes up at 6:00 pm the following day. He glances at his watch and we cut to a clock showing 7:55 above Deborah's table at the railway station restaurant.
Perhaps it's a bit like Cinema Paradiso and a liking for the first version seen. I've got mixed feelings. Will the quality of the new scenes be 8/10 and the restored old scenes 10/10 as reported by a recent viewer, will the match cuts, links and general flow of the movie be better or worse and will these additional scenes benefit or detract from it? I'm looking forward to seeing the new version but I can't help feeling that I won't be completely satisfied until I see the further footage mentioned by Martin Scorcese added, bringing the movie nearer to Sergio Leone's 270 minute version.
Perhaps it's a bit like Cinema Paradiso and a liking for the first version seen.
It has already been reported that this new edition has a lot of compression problems (go figure, one disc only for a 4h20m movie), and you may be interested to learn that the PR guy of 'Andrea Leone Productions' (Andrea is one of Sergio's sons) is already apologising for that, whilst saying they will try and distribute a better version someday in the future.
It's reported that the new BD is Region B Locked and the duration of the movie is 246 mins, so PAL/50HZ encoding may be an issue.
Someone on the Blu-ray forum just posted the following:
It has already been reported that this new edition has a lot of compression problems (go figure, one disc only for a 4h20m movie), and you may be interested to learn that the PR guy of 'Andrea Leone Productions' (Andrea is one of Sergio's sons) is already apologising for that, whilst saying they will try and distribute a better version someday in the future.
Quote from: chris on Yesterday at 02:59:01 AM
It's reported that the new BD is Region B Locked and the duration of the movie is 246 mins, so PAL/50HZ encoding may be an issue.
I'm not too well-informed on these things, but I thought 50/60Hz was only an issue with 1080i content and not 1080p?
There was a previous statement that at a future date there will be a further release. I can't remember the exact wording but I think it was hoped that this release would include both versions of the movie and possibly some extras.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w494/chris5522/ouatia/cera_volta_america_back.jpg)
I've just received the new extended version and have viewed it alongside WB's original 229 min Blu-ray. :(
These were my thoughts when I first viewed both BDs side by side:
The picture quality of the new scenes is poor and they look similar to those on YouTube. Surprisingly the picture quality of the other scenes is not as good as that in the original BD. The brightness has been turned up, there's a lack of contrast, poor blacks, color tinge and pixellation and no meaningful detail in the shadows. The movie looks flat to me and I'm not sure the defects are just down to compression.
The only positive thing I can say about it is that it's good to have a legal copy of the new scenes and see how they integrate into the rest of the movie. If the other 20 or so minutes mentioned by Martin Scorcese are ever released, I will still purchase a copy no matter how low the quality is.
Several people who have seen the new BD are saying it's not that bad so I had another look using different TVs and Blu-ray players.
On some TVs it looks quite good and there is better definition in some of the scenes. You can now clearly read the sign above the gates of the Boys Reformatory to which Noodles is taken.
The images can look grainy which some are saying is compression although this can be eliminated, if needed, by altering the TV settings. I don't regret my purchase in the slightest and hopefully, if new versions are released, some of the criticisms such as compression will be addressed.
It's now available on Amazon.co.uk as well as Amazon.it and whilst the disc and packaging don't mention region locking, I don't know anyone who has yet tried to play the disc in a U.S. Blu-ray player.
but don't blu ray discs have so much available memory (25GB for single layer, 50GB for a dual layer), that space/compression never be an issue, even with a movie that's approximately 250 minutes long? ie. if a blu ray disc has poor picture quality, that just means that whoever is handling the technical shit did a bad job with it, and not that the poor quality is due to compression cuz of lack of space or whatever (that's why movies on br are always only a single disc, no double disc is ever necessary, since each disc has so much memory).
I mean, if the issue really is the space/compression, couldn't they just put it on 2 discs? would that solve the problem? I don't know shit about technical stuff, but is this just plain and simple a bad motherfucking job by the Cinematagrophique Bologna or whatever the fuck is the name of the restoration company that was supposed to be the savior of OUATIA? (How about we star some petition for Criterion to get on the case -- aren't they known for doing the best restorations?)
Finally, just wondering how the sound is on the new br disc?
There were reports in August that the film had been pulled from circulation pending further restoration work. Was this additional restoration completed, ya know, before they released this Blu-Ray?
Mat
Deal killer.
There were reports in August that the film had been pulled from circulation pending further restoration work. Was this additional restoration completed, ya know, before they released this Blu-Ray?
I thought the restoration work was concerned mostly with the Italian audio.
I thought the restoration work was concerned mostly with the Italian audio. I've certainly not noticed any problems with the English audio. The new scenes look exactly the same as the YouTube videos.
I didn't realize that. However, didn't Scorsese say they are planning on adding in a further 20 mins or so in any case?
4.0 out of 5 stars
No great revelations in the new footage and a very disappointing Italian pressing, but a must for lovers of the film 9 Dec 2012
By Trevor Willsmer HALL OF FAME TOP 10 REVIEWER
Format:Blu-ray
After decades of rumours and false starts, not to mention the multiple cut American versions that existed over the years, the almost-complete extended version of Sergio Leone's Once Upon a Time in America finally reaches Blu-ray and DVD, albeit only in Italy at the moment. Thankfully the disc is English-friendly, with English soundtrack and subtitle options as well as Italian. Not so thankfully the now 250-minute film has been put on one extras-free single disc with very disappointing picture quality. While you expect to make allowances for the 22 minutes or so of restored footage - though perhaps not quite as many as are needed here - the same shouldn't be said of the rest of the film, but sadly the picture quality is largely substandard, lacking detail, not coping well with shadows and with very different colour grading to the 229-minute theatrical version that gives it a kind of metallic sepia tone that will be recognisable to any of the film' fans who saw the lavish large promotional brochure for the film that has become a collector's item. But for now, Warner's uncharacteristically substandard disc is the only game in town if you want to see the longest version of the film.
Strictly speaking this isn't quite a director's cut, and not just because it's been restored by Leone's children from his own cutting notes. The 229-minute version was his preferred version, but he planned to incorporate the deleted scenes into a longer version for European TV that got abandoned in the wake of the film's disastrous initial reception. There's nothing here that's essential to the story or which adds much to the film: this is more a version for people who love the film and want more. Louise Fletcher's restored scene at the cemetery is fairly redundant and not particularly well played (it also boasts quite atrocious picture quality), Elizabeth McGovern's Katherine Hepburnesque death scene from Antony and Cleopatra tends to slow the picture down and much of the rest is filling in gaps: in this version, Noodles is a witness to the car bomb that kills a senate hearing witness, while his relationship with Darlanne Fluegel is much more fleshed out (albeit awkwardly placed after the rape scene), underlining his sexual immaturity. There's a brief exchange with his chauffeur about the Nazis and Jews ("Jews don't have to be like Italians and look up to criminals") but it's clear that producer Arnon Milchan's performance led to that being cut from the film. The longest addition is a final scene with Treat Williams' Jimmy Hoffa-like union boss and James Woods that shows how the balance of power between the two has shifted, but while it's interesting it spells out too much of what's coming in the finale and is a bit redundant.
The greatest strengths remain those of the 229-minute version: the elegiac mood, the unhurried visual storytelling that makes such an impression in the opening of the film in particular, the ambitious structure shifting between three different time periods as it follows the workings of its anti-hero's memory, the details whose importance don't become apparent until a second viewing such as the bricked up door in the bar, Ennio Morricone's melancholy and yearning score, and the excellent performances from De Niro when he still cared about his work, James Woods and the underpraised child actors who do such an impressive job of embodying the actors who will play the gang in the main body of the film. It's what we've already seen that makes the film such a spellbinding and surprisingly rich and complex experience for those who are on its wavelength. Yet while there are no great revelations and no great transformations in this extended version, it's still a must for lovers of the film. It's just a shame that this version hasn't been mastered on home video with the kind of care and attention it deserves.
In 1984 Sergio Leone certainly regretted having to cut 50 mins but by 1988 he said he preferred the 229 min version.The salient point. Because intentions change.
The salient point. Because intentions change.
That could be the case. Or it could be that he was trying to save face/sell his movie.You don't, that's clear.
Who knows.
Some-one on another board has said the encoding is 1080 24.
Speaking of the quality of the print - I hope the picture quality issues with the old scenes are a result of compression. The masters and 4K restoration are said to be excellent and the compression can be fairly easily fixed in the next release by using 2 BDs.
There's a detailed summary of the new BD and a brief comparison with the BD released last year at Movie Censorship:
http://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=898776 (http://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=898776)
Even if theoretically this can be fixed by issuing another release on 2 discs, what are the chances you think they'd actually do that, anytime soon?
For him, SL's legacy is just a way to get D&D's money.
why would the "original" 229 minutes look worse than it does on the WB dvd and blu ray? nevermind the fact that supposedly, there was a major restoration of those 229 minutes as well -- why would they look worse than they did previously? As for the possibility that it's the size of the file: is there really that much of a difference between a 229-minute file and one that is 250 minutes? Or is it possibly because the restoration caused the original 229 minutes to be a much larger file than it was on the WB disc?
There are obviously another 20 minutes or so of unreleased footage and it is difficult to imagine that they are in a worse state than the recently restored new scenes. Perhaps the further scenes between Noodles and Eve or Noodles and Carol cannot be simply reinserted, perhaps they contradict other parts of the movie or canot be made homogeneous. Hopefully one day we will find out and get to see them. In the meantime if, as Davide Pozzi says, the negatives for the new scenes no longer exist and the only materials available are discarded strips of working positives, was anything in those six film reel cans in the Film 4 documentary from 2000, were they just film props or has something happened?
The only thing I can think of that contradicts other parts of the movie, is part of the scene with elderly Carol at The Bailey Foundation's nursing home. She tells Noodles how Eve waited for him to return, got depressed waiting in dark hotel room, downing pills, and eventually killed herself. Obviously, this is inconsistent with the opening scene in the movie, where Eve is killed by the Combination's hit men.
Was the opening scene added later (necessitating the removal of that part of the scene with elderly Carol), or is it intended that she doesn't know what she's talking about?
Of her comments to Noodles that are included in the 229MV, she is partly correct (Max put it in our heads to tip off the cops), but partially wrong (that Max planned his own suicide), although that's really the point, that Max tricked everyone into thinking he was dead. So, even though she is wrong about that point, that doesn't mean she is necessarily supposed to be an unreliable source.
(Anyway, I am sure I wrote most or all of this shit way back somewhere in these 37 pages of this thread ;))
Some reviewers are saying that it looks better on Plasma TVs.No doubt. But then, everything does.
I can't remember Sergio Leone using narration/voice-overs much in his movies. In the Carol at the Bailey Foundation scene her words "Max made fools of us Noodles..." is off camera and could have easily been transferred from another scene. When we do see Carol, it's difficut to tell initially if her lips are in sync with the words spoken. As you say Carol talking about how Eve committed suicide with pills wouldn't make sense if simply re-inserted.
I suppose it depends if Leone made the cuts and submitted the movie to the Ladd Co or if, after removing the deleted scenes, he irreversibly altered some of the original scenes.
Before the falsies scene, Noodles meets Eve in the hospital elevator so Max saying that he has a yen for the seashore himself, Noodles asking "Do you wanna go swimming?" etc and Joe Pesci's appearance at the hospital would have to be altered.
Beginning and end frames and obsolete themes and phrases may be a problem. Suicide was originally a recurring theme and the movie was originally going from Noodles at the Bailey Foundation looking through a window at the darkness outside and saying "Suicide" followed by Deborah as Cleopatra re-enacting one of the most memorable and famous suicides in history.
I've not seen any evidence that scenes such as Bugsy's arrest or Noodles conversation with the Rabbi in 1968 were filmed but yes it would have been good to see them and some of the scenes would have added to the story and assisted interpretation and understanding.
Some reviewers are saying that it looks better on Plasma TVs.
No doubt. But then, everything does.
It's a clever quip but some will say completely the opposite. Their argument would be that matte screens and LCDs/LEDs may reproduce what's on the disc more faithfully and precisely.What's on the discs are "1"s and "0"s. The only question of merit is whether that data, when manipulated for display, resembles "film" (or the original theatrical presentation). Plasma always seems more film-like to me. Others either disagree or don't really care if things resemble film (they may in fact prefer a more"digitized" video look). Others apparently also believe that there are good looking women in England. De gustibus non est disputandum.
What's on the discs are "1"s and "0"s. The only question of merit is whether that data, when manipulated for display, resembles "film" (or the original theatrical presentation). Plasma always seems more film-like to me. Others either disagree or don't really care if things resemble film (they may in fact prefer a more "digitized" video look).
I've never owned a Plasma TV, my friends don't like them owing to reliability problems, Sony stopped making them several years ago and I wonder whether really a TV can be smart enough to differentiate between good data and bad data. For me it doesn't seem prudent to buy a TV because it obscures parts of an image and technology seems to be going in a different direction.I'm not sure what reliability problems your friends are referring to. There used to be a problem with "burn-in", but my understanding is that the technology evolved and did away with the problem. Another issue was supposed to be that plasma isn't supposed to last as long as the other options (LCD/LED), but that might not even be true anymore either. Anyway, until we've actually run the different screens in real conditions through a number of years, we won't really know. If your ONLY concern is longevity, then probably an LED is the way to go. I'm willing to chance having a screen with a shorter lifetime if it delivers the kind of image I enjoy most. I've had my plasma more than 3 years now and it's never given me a lick of trouble and it still looks great. I'll let you know, though, if it suddenly craps out.
Plasma TVs .... it's claimed that they are better at coping with fast action.
I'm not sure what reliability problems your friends are referring to. There used to be a problem with "burn-in", but my understanding is that the technology evolved and did away with the problem. Another issue was supposed to be that plasma isn't supposed to last as long as the other options (LCD/LED), but that might not even be true anymore either. Anyway, until we've actually run the different screens in real conditions through a number of years, we won't really know. If your ONLY concern is longevity, then probably an LED is the way to go. I'm willing to chance having a screen with a shorter lifetime if it delivers the kind of image I enjoy most. I've had my plasma more than 3 years now and it's never given me a lick of trouble and it still looks great. I'll let you know, though, if it suddenly craps out.
Thanks for the additional info dj. I'll certainly include plasmas when I next look for a new TV.
Note that plasma may cost 3 times as much on your electricity bill as LEDA philistine is one who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
just one article I read about plasma vs. LCD vs. LED
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2387377,00.asp
I've never owned a Plasma TV, my friends don't like them owing to reliability problems, Sony stopped making them several years ago and I wonder whether really a TV can be smart enough to differentiate between good data and bad data. For me it doesn't seem prudent to buy a TV because it obscures parts of an image and technology seems to be going in a different direction.
Having said that you certainly get a lot of TV for your money with Plasma TVs and it's claimed that they are better at coping with fast action. I'll certainly be looking at both Plasmas and LEDs when I next purchase a TV and I'm tempted to try something different.
Can anybody confirm whether that new blu ray disc is indeed region-free, despite officially being listed as region-B? I would buy it on Amazon if I knew that it would play in my region A blu ray player
This quietly snuck out from Warners in Italy. The film is on one disc and people were already complaining about screen caps on one of the usual silly forums. It's always best to see the disc in motion, of course. And there's no reason a fine Blu-ray can't come for a four hour plus film on a BD 50 if there are no extras at all on the disc, which there aren't. But these people see bad compression from still frames. I don't. In any case, the disc came today.If you want to follow the discussion you can do so here:
So, now I have seen the first forty-five minutes and I can speak having now actually seen the thing. And I'm here to tell you, compression is the least of it - spreading this transfer over five discs would not help it. Why? Because it is a complete botch job of the film called Once Upon a Time in America. Mr. Leone and Mr. Delli Colli would be fuming if they saw what their beautiful film has been turned into. I saw this film seven times in its short version and about seventeen times in its long version, and owned a beautiful LPP 35mm print of it. The photography is stunning. You would not know that from this new restoration. I have no idea what the new prints or DCP look like, I can only go by what's on this Blu-ray and it looks like crap.
There is no contrast - just milk. The detail is blah. Worst of all (but I know it won't be bothersome to most because color problems rarely are) - the color. Awful. What a joke. Want to see the correct color and contrast, just pop in the old Warner Blu-ray and you'll see it perfectly because that's exactly what the prints looked like in terms of color and contrast (that original Blu-ray may not be perfect but side by side to this new one, it's better in every way). I find it hard to believe I'm saying this, but there is far more detail in the Warners Blu-ray than this sorry mess. You see it right from the first shot and it gets worse as you go. When it goes to Fat Moe being beaten to a pulp his blood is - brown/orange. Not vivid red - brown/orange. His hair, which is red - is brown. Then you go to the Chinese theater and gone are all the shadings and the beautiful reds and golds, rendered here lifeless and blah. Then you get to the scene in the rain where Noodles' buddies have been shot down. There's a fire truck. Brown/orange. Fire trucks are not brown/orange. Then you to to the scene in the station and see that beautiful, stunning Coney Island mural - hard to make that blah, and yet... Then Noodles comes back older and the mural is now the big apple of the Big Apple. What color is an apple? Well, in this instance it should be bright red - it's brown/orange and hardly bright. And so it goes. There are no blacks in this transfer - just milk. I put them side by side and there's no question that even if you don't like the bitrate of the original Blu-ray, if you want a Once Upon a Time in America that actually looks as it should, that's the only choice right now. I fear for watching the rest of this thing, but since none of the additional footage has appeared yet, I'll mush on just to see how all that works.
A complete failure.
One poster on that forum says he thinks they made the color suck so bad so that the new scenes, which we know look awful, shouldn't look that bad in comparison ;D ;D ;DYeah, I saw that. I have a sneaking suspicion he's right.
And his opinion about the new footage also doesn't make me to wish the new footage in a hurry:
"Now that I've finished, I don't think there's one of the twenty minutes' worth of stuff that makes a bit of difference, really. It does make it longer, and you do get a little explanation of something here and there, but Leone's long cut worked wonderfully."
Of course other people will see this different, but on my last re-watch OUTA felt already overlong.
One poster on that forum says he thinks they made the color suck so bad so that the new scenes, which we know look awful, shouldn't look that bad in comparison ;D ;D ;D
About the song's origins, MacGowan recently told the Sun newspaper that “Our idea of New York was based on movies like Once Upon A Time In America, which we were obsessed with. We borrowed a lot from the soundtrack of that film."
Of course most of these aren't really issues any more (and frankly who really cares if their TV is heavy?), yet LCD/LED technology has swallowed up the market leaving only LG, Samsung and Panasonic to serve an increasingly niche plasma market.
Seems like soon we will be down to just two as Panasonic is pulling out:Interesting. Maybe my next screen (many years from now, hopefully) will be an OLED.
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=211857
Apparently they are going to put their efforts into developing OLED (Organic LED) which is markedly different from what we currently call LED.
This is becoming more and more off topic but... Sony just unveiled World's first 4K OLED TV.
http://mashable.com/2013/01/08/sony-4k-oled-tv/
if you are worried about staying on topic
I am a fan of the movie and applauded Andrea Leone's efforts to purchase the rights and restore a version which he thought was dear to his father's heart. However the restored version is 250 mins long whereas Sergio Leone's version was 270 mins and the restoration seems to have been influenced by people's memories, preferences, imagination and fantasies of what they think the movie should look like. Some seem to quite like the new version but others describe it as a redux version without the director's approval which is far removed from being a fair or true representation of any version of the movie made by Sergio Leone.
I might wait until they release this particular version of OUATIA, I recently downloaded it and thought the deleted scenes were great. I wonder what else was left out that might've been important to the story.
I think I might wait for the book. Does the book go more in depth with the deleted scenes from his other movies?
FAFDM: some Europena versions have a few extra shots with a tiny nstahc of dialogue in the beating scene
One difference with the restored version: the scene of Tuco getting tortured is trimmed somewhat in the American version from the Italian; the official reason given by John Jerk is that the film was damaged too badly and coukdn't be used on the extra couple of minutes of torture. it's included as a bonus feature. 9I am not sure if those 2 minutres have been restiored back into the film in the Italian version of the 2003 restoration, or whether they are also only a bonus feature.
There are a few extra shiots in the scene of the McBain massacre....
The main difference between OUTIA and the westerns is that for OUTA Leoen made the cuts on the released version ,and we don't know if he ever had reinserted these material, but in his SWs the cuts were made by the distributors against Leone's will.
Not sure about that additional flashback scene of DYS though. Maybe that's another case where Leone took it out. I like it, but it was restored in the 90s, and I'm not sure if it was ever part of a released version before.
can anyone confirm if the new restored OUATIA Italian dvd/blu ray is indeed region B/2 PAL locked? (The Dollars movies on Italian blu ray are all officially listed as region B and PAL, but every one of them is actually region-free and plays fine on my American blu ray player (I've heard that the bonus features are in PAL, though I never tried 'em). For each one, board members advised me that the feature was region-free so I bought the blu ray, and they played just fine on my American blu ray player
So the fact this restored OUATIA blu ray is listed as Region B/PAL doesn't scare me on its own. I am hoping someone can confirm for me whether the main feature is indeed Region B/PAL locked? Thanks
...or for us in Australia :)
well aren't you guys region B/2? Then you can play the new restored dvd/blu ray on your blu ray players. (Not sure about language though)
The new version aired on Sky Cinema 1 HD in Italy yesterday (May 3 2013). Some viewers say it looked better than the new BD.
I think this movie is important to the Leones for family/sentimental/artistic reasons, to complete the vision of their father, to have their father's final masterpiece finally released as he intended, and not just to make a buck.When I look up the word naïf in the dictionary, guess whose picture I find?
If this is true (I have no reason to believe it's not true) it's great news. O0
CJ, don't be so quick to give thumbs-up; even if this news is true, this may only be an Italian release.... When the news first came down about a restoration, it said the Leone family purchased the Italian rights to the film. I wondered then what that meant for us in America; and when the extended blu-ray was finally released, it was indeed only Region B.... If the Leone family is really gonna release a new and improved extended blu-ray now, I'd hope we get it here in America, too.
On DVD players it is a software issue - hence the vast majority are able to play all discs from all regions at all times
ON BD players it is a hardware issue - hence the player has to be booted up in the region desired.
http://www.220-electronics.com/sony-bdp-s5100-region-free-blu-ray-dvd-player.html (http://www.220-electronics.com/sony-bdp-s5100-region-free-blu-ray-dvd-player.html)
http://www.220-electronics.com/sony-bdp-s5100-region-free-blu-ray-dvd-player.html (http://www.220-electronics.com/sony-bdp-s5100-region-free-blu-ray-dvd-player.html)Looking at the specs, it doesn't say anything about automatic region switching. I don't know, because I haven't used the deck, but I'd bet you still have to manually switch the regions (for Blu-ray, of course; DVDs of all regions play in all BD decks).
have you used this and know it's good?
There is reason to think that a Region A Blu-ray is coming soon, maybe by Spring of 2014: http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?p=8558489#post8558489 (Scroll to the top and hit the "show spoiler" button).
There may be some good news.
It's recently been reported that the MPAA have given a R rating to the extended version of the movie.
This may indicate that Warner Home Video are making some progress in their plans to release the extended version in the USA.
http://www.imdb.com/news/ni57159650/ (http://www.imdb.com/news/ni57159650/)
http://www.ropeofsilicon.com/step-dolphin-tale-2-upon-time-america-todays-mpaa-ratings-bulletin/ (http://www.ropeofsilicon.com/step-dolphin-tale-2-upon-time-america-todays-mpaa-ratings-bulletin/)
According to Blu-ray.com, the extended director's cut is to be released in the U.S. on Sep 30, 2014.Another poster at Blu-ray.com has subsequently posted this:
http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Once-Upon-a-Time-in-America-Blu-ray/95062/ (http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Once-Upon-a-Time-in-America-Blu-ray/95062/)
They state a running time of 269 minutes and posts at Blu-ray.com's forum seem to support this:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?p=9278009#post9278009 (http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?p=9278009#post9278009)
Warner Bros. Home Entertainment is releasing an Extended Director's Cut of Sergio Leone's Once Upon a Time in America on Blu-ray this fall. The extended version features 40-minutes of additional footage, bringing the runtime to 269 minutes, and was supervised by the film's original sound editor, Fausto Ancillai. The Extended Director's Cut makes its U.S. Blu-ray debut on September 30th.
New artwork plus a book? Extended version on a single BD? Compression/color problems? Extra 18 minutes? Region A?
Today, the Film Society of Lincoln Center announced today, that they will be screening the extended version, as part of the 52nd New York Film Festival, this September. Their press release stated that this version of the film "includes 22-minutes of restored footage, never before seen in the United States." This would indicated that the cut that will be screened, will be 251 minutes (229 + 22). Knowing this, I would be very surprised if the Blu-ray contains the full 269 minute cut.
So, you might not want to get your hopes up.
The following link gives some details about the booklet accompanying the new BD - a new 32-page book with rare photos and insightful notes that chronicle the movie's production history - and confirms that the movie will have its U.S. premiere at the 2014 New York Film Festival which runs between September 26 and October 12. They contradict WHV's runtime figure but no doubt further information will be released in due course.Hahahaha, D&D is gonna hurt himself trying to figure out which of the new releases to buy:
http://www.broadwayworld.com/bwwmovies/article/ONCE-UPON-A-TIME-IN-AMERICA-Extended-Directors-Cut-Edition-Comes-to-DVD-930-20140605# (http://www.broadwayworld.com/bwwmovies/article/ONCE-UPON-A-TIME-IN-AMERICA-Extended-Directors-Cut-Edition-Comes-to-DVD-930-20140605#)
Once Upon a Time in America will be released in three home entertainment editions: the 2-disc Extended Director's Cut Collector's Edition Blu-ray ($34.99 SRP) which contains the Extended Director's Cut, the 1984 theatrical edition, Digital HD with UltraViolet, plus the 32-page book with rare photos and chronicles of the movie's production; the single-disc Extended Director's Cut Blu-ray ($19.98 SRP); and the two-disc Extended Director's Cut DVD ($14.97 SRP).
Hahahaha, D&D is gonna hurt himself trying to figure out which of the new releases to buy:
At Cannes Film Festival press release in pdf here http://www.festival-cannes.com/assets/Image/Direct/045945.pdf (http://www.festival-cannes.com/assets/Image/Direct/045945.pdf) was mention that new version is 4 hours 15 min 255 min, but Blu-ray released in Italy 4 hours 11 min 251 min which is US prepping to release on September 30 so there is great deal of confusion of runtime versions
here is what restore transfer should look and I hope US transfer should look likeSource?
Source?
suppose good news that warner finally decide to release the movie in extended form 251 min what about other 18 min the Marty Scorsese were talking about and we don't know what transfer look like I hope not the one that got released in Italy which is terrible and main concern is extended scenes state what they would look like in US release and one more thing Blu-ray cover art cover art looks terrible they might want to consider to change
At Cannes Film Festival press release in pdf here http://www.festival-cannes.com/assets/Image/Direct/045945.pdf (http://www.festival-cannes.com/assets/Image/Direct/045945.pdf)...
Taking another quick look at the comparisons at caps-a-holic:
http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/multi_comparison.php?disc1=2737&disc2=2738&cap1=25236&cap2=25251&art=full&image=11&hd_multiID=296&action=1&lossless=#vergleich (http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/multi_comparison.php?disc1=2737&disc2=2738&cap1=25236&cap2=25251&art=full&image=11&hd_multiID=296&action=1&lossless=#vergleich)
I'm preparing a fan edit with the RIGHT colors. Here are the grading tests I did on a few shots. The picture may look a bit more square than what we're use to watch but I added some details on the top and bottom so that it's easier to share on Instagram:
Deborah dancing (she now beautifully stands out against the smoky background):
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-OiFpaALjWv0/UNg7ELSrC9I/AAAAAAAAAf8/XEwQn2BEWHM/s150-c/photo.jpg)
etc....
these comparison caps are between the American WB blu-ray, and which Italian version? is it the Italian version currently out, the one that is 229 minutes; or is it the new version that is 251 minutes?
When I compared the screencaps, to me, in most of the shots the WB version is definitely superior. The colors in the WB version look much more realistic (and btwm they look much more red) whereas in the Italian version, the colors look washed out, much darker (browner?) that they would realistically be...
Work is a little slow now, I take it?
...when the 251MV was recently released on Italian BRD, lotsa people were complaining about the fact that it didn't look good cuz there were compression problems cuz they put the whole thing on a single disc; people were saying they should have put it on 2 discs. So it seems that on the new releases, each version will be on a single disc again, so we can expect the same compression problems? (what about dual layering? I don't remember whether that Italian release with the compression problems was single-layered or dual-layered.
Will the 229MV in this boxset be identical to the previous WB BRD; or has a restoration been done on that 229MV as well, so that the original 229 minutes - both in the new 229MV BRD and in the 251MV BRD- will be improved from the original 229-minute BRD?
It's ridiculous that they aren't having any new bonus features. Is it perhaps because they can't afford to use any more space on the disc? WOULD IT KILL THEM TO HAVE ANOTHER DISC IN THE BOXSET???
Anyway, in case you couldn't tell, I am excited ;)
B&W looks pretty good. Yeah, I guess we can buy the new disc and dial the color down and have something where the new scenes don't stick out.
...one a separate note: as we see in these screencaps, the WB disc was cropped on the sides; the new disc will show more on the sides. I wonder if the reason the WB disc was cropped was to get the movie to 1.78:1 instead of 1.85:1?
The movie's correct aspect ratio is 1.85:1, which means that when you watch the DVD/BRD on an HDTV (which, of course, is 1.78:1), you should see tiny black bars on top and bottom. But you don't, which means that they chopped the movie to 1.78:1 to fit the HDTV screen without any black bars. I remember asking about whether they chopped the sides, and someone on these boards said, no, in these cases, to change from 1.85:1 to 1.78:1, they usually show more on top and bottom, not less on the sides. Well, maybe he was wrong: maybe WB indeed chopped some of the sides to get it to 1.78:1. And maybe now, the restoration is attempting to return it to its correct aspect ratio of 1.85:1; we'll know for sure once the disc is released, if we see tiny black bars on top and bottom of the screen. Of course, they'd be very tiny, cuz the difference between 1.85:1 and 1.78:1 is very little. Nevertheless, I hate that they chop it; they should just release all movies in their correct aspect ratios and stop worrying that viewers don't want black bars on the screen. If we are fine with having big bars for 4:3 movies and 2.35:1 movies, why shouldn't we be happy having tiny bars for 1.85:1 movies?
I remember asking about whether they chopped the sides, and someone on these boards said, no, in these cases, to change from 1.85:1 to 1.78:1, they usually show more on top and bottom, not less on the sides. Well, maybe he was wrong...
That's due to your TV. There will be a setting somewhere called "just" or the like, that will ensure that doesn't happen.
The newly added 22 minutes of extended scenes bring us closer to Leone original vision of the film, but due to the limited availability of 35mm work prints, the new inserts could not be restored to the same quality as the rest of the film,
that means we going to get same quality of the added scenes as it was released in Italy what a shame, nothing mentioned about color grading color correction.
there is still 19 minutes missing as Martin Scorsese mentioned other scenes in bad state and restored them takes time, I bet there is going to be another extended version in future.
Ordered the big new Blu-Ray set. Coming in next Tuesday... can't wait.Rather, a week from Tuesday (the 30th).
For the scene with young Noodles and Young Deborah, why has the image from the new Extended Cut been zoomed?
Some color comparisons:
http://www.lb2121.webspace.virginmedia.com/comp.htm (http://www.lb2121.webspace.virginmedia.com/comp.htm)
For the scene with young Noodles and Young Deborah, why has the image from the new Extended Cut been zoomed?
Man, I hope the "theatrical cut" in the new set is an improvement over the 2011 BD. The extended cut is probably something I'll only watch once, but an improved TC I could watch repeatedly for the rest of my life.
Man, I hope the "theatrical cut" in the new set is an improvement over the 2011 BD. The extended cut is probably something I'll only watch once, but an improved TC I could watch repeatedly for the rest of my life.
I agree. I mean, if the new scenes would be good quality, the new version would probably be the version I'd watch for the rest of my life, but if this new version is as bad as I am hearing, I'll probably watch it once and never again. I may watch the new scenes a few times separately, but I wouldn't keep subjecting myself to 251 shitty looking minutes :(
I was treated to a gorgeous DCP!I was there too, and I concur with everything said above. I'm not sure if the colors are what they were in 1985, but they looked very good, better than what's been available on the previous Blu-ray (Carlo Tafani, the camera operator on the film, is credited with overseeing the look of the new master). The re-inserted footage is a travesty, and should never have been put back in (I blame D&D). If Warner's hasn't done the right thing by giving us the 4K scan of the theatrical cut, then a fan edit will be in order.
It's not smoothed over, waxy, and grainless. You want a red Big Apple? You get a red Big Apple, not an orange Big Apple, and every other color that Sergio Leone and Tonino Delli Conti intended you to see. I've read of a yellow tint; I did detect a subtle change or shift in color when the movie enters the boyhood scenes (its great strength; so well cast and beautifully done), but it wasn't a "tint," or a color wash, or some other anomaly; if this was something I hadn't seen before, it felt organic, and proper. Unobtrusive.
The restored footage, particularly Louise Fletcher's unnecessary scene, looked and also sounded terrible. No surprise there. Darlanne Fluegel (who gets a new introductory scene in the delicate, latticed time sequencing of events) and Williams (who gets a long or lengthened scene with Woods toward the end, discussing matters easily inferred in the 229m cut) will be pleased, but the rest struck me as superfluous, and given the shape of the materials would have been much better presented as deleted scenes
...Point is, there is a 229MV that was restored by Bologna Cinematheque - so wtf wouldn't they release that version as part of this BRD boxset? WTF are they just putting the previously released BRD into the boxset? >:(
I watched the extended Blu. quick thoughts:
Definitely a noticeable yellow tint throughout the entire movie. Looks very washed out compared to the 2011 WB.
The extra 22-minutes generally look and sound horrible, and really aren't significant enough than just a curiosity
The only part I thought would do the movie a justice is including Noodles faking his drowning to get back at Max after the boatramp. The cut back to the 60's is interesting and also includes a quick glimpse of the infamous garbage truck.
The 4 or 5 other deleted scenes are good as individual deleted scenes, but do nothing but hurt the movie. Especially Noodles meeting Eve. It's placed right in the middle of my personal favorite part of the film (Deborah's date to intermission) and really fucks with the natural flow of Noodles standing outside after the rape to the train station. I don't understand why the Eve scenes wouldn't be placed directly after the intermission.I thought the same. The way it is now, Noodles rapes Deborah, Noodles feels bad about it and goes gets drunk, he gets picked up by Eve, they go have sex (???), Noodles wakes up the next morning and rushes off to see Deborah depart (????????????). As you say, it would make so much more sense to have Noodles meeting Eve AFTER Deborah leaves on the train.
I haven't yet seen the new version straight, but as I've said before in our (many) discussions about the new scenes, IMO the most important one is the one with Eve. Maybe you disagree with the placement of the scene, that's fine, but that scene is definitely needed.True. It's the most important added scene, but the placement is shit. For being 2 or 3 minutes long, I don't quite understand why Leone cut it.
As to whether it is placed properly, and whether it is worthwhile having it in the movie considering how bad the quality is, that I can't say until I watch the full movie, once my BRD arrives in a few days.
Anyway, it's unbelievable that they find negatives from so many much earlier movies (e.g. they found the 3 cut minutes from A Streetcar Named Desire 20 years go), but a movie from 1984 doesn't have a negative in existence? :(Scorsese and the Film Foundation are operating a scheme directly targeted toward the Leone board, where they will release "new extended directors cuts" of OUATIA, minute-by-minute added and restored every few years, to steal our money for years after the death of the eldest members. only I will see the full cut in 2078
Scorsese and the Film Foundation are operating a scheme directly targeted toward the Leone board, where they will release "new extended directors cuts" of OUATIA, minute-by-minute added and restored every few years, to steal our money for years after the death of the eldest members. only I will see the full cut in 2078
I think the machine gun quote is actually from Forsythe.
Treat Williams mentions that Martin Sheen auditioned but didn't get a part whilst Mickey Rourke was around at the time complaining "I can’t even get a meeting!". He's full of praise for De Niro and gives an insight into Leone's way of working.
e.g. "Working with Sergio, who was so kind but also so rough. There was one actor, a guy you just couldn’t scare if you tried, he had to show fear at a moment. Sergio had the prop guy hand him a tommy gun and he screamed ‘Action’ and opened up the tommy gun. The actor was so startled. The shot worked."
“I have to tell you, that gasoline hose with which I’m being doused as the young version of my character is introduced: that hose had been very, very recently used…as a gasoline hose! As Cary Grant used to write in sections of his scripts, ‘N.A.R.’ ‘No Acting Required.’ Oh my goodness. It was just foul.”
Wow for a late adopter of the BD technology, you sure did amass quite a collection quickly!
I saw the one-disc edition in Barnes & Noble (book store) the other day for $13.99. I couldn't resist so bought a copy.
I supply a lot of labels worldwide with images, docs and booklets... that explains it I suppose :).
I bought the 2-disc Blu-ray in Germany for €11.- the other day - I couldn't resist either with that price attached to it...
Next to KILLING FIELDS it is my favorite film of the 80s. The 'new' footage looks bad, that's true. I'm gonna
watch it once I suppose. I can't imagine the 'new' cut will have a tremendous impact on me since from a creative
film making point of view the European theatrical version is pretty much perfect. Also I'd rather would have seen addtitional
scenes of those early sequences (the boy gang & Jennifer). Anyway, the colors don't bother me much (since I adjust
my TV set to get rid of too much yellow), but cropped images I loath.
... Next to KILLING FIELDS it is my favorite film of the 80s...
It actually hurts the picture, it's so boring. It extends the time we spend in Bailey's study (not the most interesting place) and thus diminishes Noodles eventual arrival. It also gives us more time to study the defects in Woods' makeup. The confrontation between Bailey and Noodles is the more interesting exchange anyway; we need to get to it as soon as we can.
Elderly O’Donnell meets with Bailey/Max
Not necessary
But that O'Donnel does not resurface towards the end of the film was always one of my minor complaints. It made the character too redundant, and it felt wrong. Without this last scene it would have been better not to show him on the 68 time level.
But then I haven't watched the scene itself so far.
whether or not they had restored that scene with O'Donnell in Bailey's study, it was absolutely necessary for that 229MV to show the scene of O'Donnell in 1968 on the tv in Fat Moe's. That tv report is the first indication (and I believe the only indication, until Noodles mentions it to Deborah in her dressing room at the end) that Noodles's return has something to do with this probe into Bailey and the union-pension-fund scandal. (This is especially true in the 229MV, which cut out the scene of the elderly Noodles seeing the car at the cemetery and then seeing the same car blow up at Bailey's mansion). If they hadn't shown that tv report, then I believe there would be no mention of Bailey until Noodles talks to Deborah in her dressing room at the end. That would - in my humble, respectful, polite opinion - make zero sense.
There were other options to mention Bailey without showing O'Donnel.But this is the ongoing Story of Sergio. Not only is missing info a problem with his completed films that were later cut, he kept having to do reshoots during production in order to cover material missing from scenes he decided not to film. One thinks of the confusing info Half Soldier gives Angel Eyes in GBU. And let's not even go into the topic of OUATITW.
This is the usual problem of making films shorter than intended. One missing scene hurts other scenes or creates other problems for the ongoing film.
The half-soldier dialogue in English is indeed confusing. As DJ says, it was looped in there to explain about the cash box since another scene explaining that was later cut (not sure if it was ever filmed).
Not sure that Half-soldier's dialogue is confusing...The first time through? I'm not talking about after having seen the film a thousand times like everyone here has. I'm talking about showing the film to a complete newbie and charting his reaction. If he's part of the RR Power cohort, he'll be confused.
Yes, it's hardly confusing. The scene gives some information so that the film can go on. Fits the purpose perfectly.
I agree.
In fact, the only scene in any of Leone's movies that I find confusing is the Aschenbach scene in Duck You Sucker.
So, is this new cut worth buying?
OUATIA is my favourite film of all time, so on that level I feel obliged to
So, is this new cut worth buying?It's also my favorite film, and I will never watch the extended cut again.
OUATIA is my favourite film of all time, so on that level I feel obliged to buy it...
On the other hand there seem to be criticisms of the print quality...?
Hi Everyone,
Can anyone tell me the latest on the future of this film? will there be anything else after the 25e extra minutes added? I heard that even with the 25 minutes included it was pulled pending further work?
Regards,
I bought the single BD extended cut as the old cut on the second disc was identical to the previous BD.
What I'm now waiting to see is the remaining scenes that still haven't been included. A seamless branching BD would probably be best for that so you can choose how to watch without switching discs etc... unless the color/contrast changes really get to you.
Yeah, that is the ultimate dream, to have the extra 20 or so minutes added in, for a total running time of about 4 1/2 hours, which was Leone's ultimate preferred version. And with good image quality 😀That was his preferred cut for the projected TV version that never happened. There's no way he wanted a theatrical release that went that long.
If you doubt that Leone wanted a theatrical film that long, remember that Leone initially wanted an even bigger, two-part film, but had to abandon those plans cuz the studio was afraid after the failure of "1900."
I wasn't there. 1984 was the year I was born.
But Frayling says that to get downn to 3:47, Leone "very reluctantly" had to remove about 45 mins. of "significant" material. Leone's preferred version, if you believe Frayling, was around 4.5 hours.
If you doubt that Leone wanted a theatrical film that long, remember that Leone initially wanted an even bigger, two-part film, but had to abandon those plans cuz the studio was afraid after the failure of "1900."
Maybe Frayling is wrong. Maybe. But I'd trust his info RE: OUATIA even more than on the other movies. By that time, Frayling had already met Leone; that chapter on OUATIA seems to have more info than that of the other movies.
Maybe you think the 3:47 version is the ideal version. But I don't see a reason to doubt that Leone preferred the extra 45 minutes. Among those scenes (some of which were added back recently by Scorsese and some not (yet) ) contain important info for the narrative. Particularly the scenes with Eve. In the 3:47 version she appears out of nowhere and they're ccomfortable enough to discuss business in front of her. Also the scene with elderly Carol is pretty confusing in the 3:47 version; the fuller version explains that.
And how Noodles realizes his return is connected with Secretary Bailey's troubles - only in longer version do we realize that it is because Noodles saw the limo that was tailing him at the cemetery blow up outside Bailey's estate.
I can certainly see why Leone considered this "significant material."
He also stated somewhere else that the 2 parts idea was abandoned when 1900 flopped. He said many things at different times, like you said yourself. In the end, I think the "truth" on the topic doesn't even exist since these decisions have been made while the movie was still in the cutting room. They were still creating it. The same cannot be said of the 2 hours version, which is ulterior.
This indicates to me that Leone didn't know that the Ladd Company would find a 270 min version unacceptable until 4 months after the start of editing.
4 months editing a movie sounds like a long time to me and I would be surprised if by that time little progess had been made in achieving Leone' vision for the movie.
I think you'd be surprised. 4 months of editing would be a regular duration for a 120 minutes movie, which is not what we're talking about here. If I had to guess I would say they were right in the middle of it, which means something like a 6 hours rough cut which would include some finished scenes. But I'm just randomly guessing. I don't know a lot about editing a 35mm feature film in the 80's.
Frayling actually says there was 6 to 10 hours of usable footage, from which ( after having to abandon his plans for a two-part movie) Leone made his preferred 4.5-hour version, which he later reluctantly cut down to 3:47
Leone made his preferred 4.5-hour version, which he later reluctantly cut down to 3:47which he later called his "preferred version"
Weren't the new scenes not already more or less finished?. Wasn't there a kind of a 270 min version from which the new scenes were taken...
Listen to Stanton. He's always right.
Except when he's talking about French stuff.
Or about The Lady From Shanghai.
Actually I don't know much about Quantum Physics and Cranberry Sauce either.
These quotes are often mistakable, cause they often refer to rough cuts, which are often twice as long as the final edit.
And the correct runtime is still 229 min or 3:49 hours. That's how the film was released unless censorial cuts were made in some countries.
which he later called his "preferred version"
Maybe 3:49 not 3:47, my bad
I remember a big debate someone had ( was it you?) with the board member ONCE over whether there was a 220-minute version. Then one day, ONCE just canceled his acct. and all his posts disappeared, too ;D
...And I would like to have the 3:49 version as well. Then everyone can watch whatever he/ she prefers.
Was it ever explained why the " new" version is only 251 minutes? Did they not have the other half hour or so even in that bad quality?
- he had no idea deleting his account was gonna delete the posts
Addicted to a message board? ;D
I doubt he would do that. I mean the whole idea was that he was spending too much time. Why take even MORE time undoing what you already took too much time doing?
Anyway, he was trying to fight an addictive behaviour. That can lead to strange actions. The point is he had his reasons.
My threads are amazing.
Not as good as your signature ... ;)
>:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
So I guess Rpower can one day decide to up and leave, and the whole RTLMYS thread would be gone? Or he can delete the thread if he gets in the mood?
...Leone didn't know that the Ladd Company would find a 270 min version unacceptable until 4 months after the start of editing.
Just viewed the extended scenes up to the end of Prohibition they really don't add much do they? The Eve stuff is probably the most interesting.
Gang in water / car explosion
Absolutely essential. The whole thing is shot and edited beautifully with a wonderful visual transition between the two time periods. Furthermore the introduction of the garbage truck helps with storyline continuity by linking with the end of the film. This should never have been cut.
Noodles meets Eve at Moe's place / Deborah in station cafe
The beginning introducing Eve is essential for the storyline; the end with Deborah drinking in the cafe is essential for stylistic continuity and is a really beautiful little shot; the sex scene in the middle is unnecessary. After Noodles gets up to leave Moe’s speakeasy with Eve and asks if he can call her Deborah, there should have been a cut directly to Deborah in the cafe. This would have tied together the two of them drinking their sorrows away (Noodles at the bar, Deborah in the cafe) with Noodles’ mention of Deborah allowing a verbal link to accompany the visual. Unfortunately the sex scene between Noodles and Eve between these two scenes does not allow for this continuity.
Yes - BD is the way to go (come on Cusser you need to get with the times here ;) )
The most "extended" cut available for home viewing is the one you've listed here. There are still some more scenes but they have not been released for home viewing - apparently the source material needed a lot more extra work. Hopefully one day, we will get to see that too. You should go back and read some earlier posts on this thread in that regard.
OK - you've convinced me about which version and to go BluRay. Thanks for the input. $5.99 shipped from Best Buy, new.
OK: you all have convinced me to upgrade to the 2014 Extended Director's Cut.
Question 1: I haven't seen any BluRay discs on my TV yet; is the BluRay just better quality, and worth it? Or do BluRay discs typically have more material and extras? Thanks, I'm pretty inept at this. Oh yeah, I live in Arizona USA if that matters.
Question 2: Is this 2014 229 minute version the longest/most recent one available? This article says that a 251 minute version was screened in 2014 in NY https://nypost.com/2014/09/21/fresh-once-upon-a-time-in-america-cut-worth-every-second/ is this on DVD ?
The extended cut 251 minutes is poor image quality. The theatrical cut 229 minutes is good image quality.
I think it definitely adds something in the two places I mentioned above (reply #782)
The extended cut 251 minutes is poor image quality. The theatrical cut 229 minutes is good image quality.
My BluRay arrived yesterday. 251 minute version on Disc 1. 229 minute version on disc 2. About $6.50 shipped price from Bestbuy.comThis is the bestest Christmas evah!!!
OK: you all have convinced me to upgrade to the 2014 Extended Director's Cut.
Here's my situation: I have two homes, only one has a BluRay DVD player, the other has "regular DVD". So should I get the non-BluRay version of the Extended Director's Cut, or would I be missing something from the BluRay version? I realize that currently that the BluRay version could only be viewed at the one location.
Question 1: I haven't seen any BluRay discs on my TV yet; is the BluRay just better quality, and worth it? Or do BluRay discs typically have more material and extras? Thanks, I'm pretty inept at this. Oh yeah, I live in Arizona USA if that matters.
Question 2: Is this 2014 229 minute version the longest/most recent one available? This article says that a 251 minute version was screened in 2014 in NY https://nypost.com/2014/09/21/fresh-once-upon-a-time-in-america-cut-worth-every-second/ is this on DVD ? Thanks.
Yes - BD is the way to go (come on Cusser you need to get with the times here ;) )
The most "extended" cut available for home viewing is the one you've listed here. There are still some more scenes but they have not been released for home viewing - apparently the source material needed a lot more extra work. Hopefully one day, we will get to see that too. You should go back and read some earlier posts on this thread in that regard.
I still was a little unclear about the meaning of Deborah's letter to Noodles, with her phone number. He found this letter the following morning after meeting and taking Eve to his place.
And I assumed that Deborah had written this in advance and slipped this into his coat pocket (on the beach after the fancy restaurant?), she was gone right after the rape scene.
what letter are you talking about?
what letter are you talking about?