Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => A Fistful of Dollars => Topic started by: powwowdancer on October 07, 2004, 11:22:05 AM

Title: Help with nagging question?
Post by: powwowdancer on October 07, 2004, 11:22:05 AM
Greetings,
     I've been spending quite some time on the net trying to find out exactly what kind of machine gun Ramone Rojo was using to massacre all those Mexican soldiers.  It's not a "Vickers" or "Maxim" or "Gatlin" or any other kind that I can find.  After an exhasting search, this site rang the cherries, and here I am.  The machine gun has a "pepper box" style barrel, it's belt fed, and it's a true automatic, in that he didn't have to crank it.  The hand grips were twin, with a U-shaped (from the top view) design.   What got this started, was that I was watching the DVD again today, and I noticed that Ramone's machine gun couldn't be a Gatlin, because it didn't crank.  It looked rather like a WWI Vickers gun, and therefore, a glaring anacronism, but it's not a Vickers either.  WHAT THE DEVIL IS IT?  If you can help, either email me privately, or post it here.  Thanks in advance for any light you may be able to shed on this.

Ciao,

Powwowdancer.   ???
Title: Re:Help with nagging question?
Post by: Danny on October 07, 2004, 11:49:30 PM
This I found on: moviemistakes.com

When the Rojos steals the gold from the Mexican soldiers, one of them uses a machine gun to scythe them down. Yet the first machine guns were not used by anybody until the Civil War, and A Fistful of Dollars takes place before then (its sequel, Good, Bad, Ugly was set during that war). Not to mention that the weapon itself resembles a Vickers gun from WWI. [It is not a 'machine gun', it is a gattling gun which was around at the time.]
Title: Re:Help with nagging question?
Post by: cigar joe on October 08, 2004, 03:30:38 AM
moviemistakes.com is a mistake, first FFOD is probably the final film chronologically of the three dollars films, dated exactly by the use of that machinegun, and also that Clint is using a Colt Peacemaker. Peacemakers didn't start production until 1873 thereabouts, so it has to be after 1873.  

Chonologically GBU is a prequil, FFDM fits in the middle (though historicaly there wasn't an actual railroad in Tucumcari until 1900 though some passed nearby in 1879), then FFOD

Someone named D'Ambrosia on the Clint Eastwood board had a thread about the type of guns used in Eastwood westerns and I believe that it gave the make of the machine gun, its not a cranking "Gatling Gun" since Ramon is just holding it with two hands so the gun is using the explosive gas from each bullet to advance to the next round.
Title: Re:Help with nagging question?
Post by: powwowdancer on October 08, 2004, 06:18:47 AM
I really appreciate the help!  BUT, moviemistakes has got it wrong, because a gatlin cranks, and a vickers has but one barrel.  (Ramon uses thumb triggers and there's the pepper box barrels... )  I can't help but think that it was some kind of "hybrid" thrown together with what was available.  (i.e., they used a WWI machine gun, put an ersatz "pepper box" case around the barrel to make it look like a maxim, and said "roll 'em.")  If any light ever sheds for sure on this, I'd like to know.  Thanks for turning me on to "movie mistakes!"  I'll have to bookmark it right next to the IMDB.

Ciao,

Powwowdancer.  
Title: Re:Help with nagging question?
Post by: grandpa_chum on October 08, 2004, 08:51:36 AM
perhaps it's a gatling they just didn't crank... movie shortcut... even though leone isn't known for taking shortcuts
Title: Re:Help with nagging question?
Post by: cigar joe on October 08, 2004, 09:08:08 PM
It looks, from some searching, like the barrel of a Gatling but the handels look like the handels of a Maxim, over all it looks like an early Maxim but the one Ramon shoots does not have a short barrel sticking out of the front of the gun, the front looks more like the front of a Gatling.

Check out these links for yourself.

Maxim's:
 
http://users.erols.com/hyattg/usmcguns/max_08.htm

http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/mghvruss.htm

http://www.thetankmaster.com/english/afv/maxim_mg08.asp


Late Model Gatlings:

http://users.erols.com/hyattg/usmcguns/mgtour8.jpg

Title: Re:Help with nagging question?
Post by: Dlanor on October 17, 2004, 09:18:45 AM
This I found on: moviemistakes.com

When the Rojos steals the gold from the Mexican soldiers, one of them uses a machine gun to scythe them down. Yet the first machine guns were not used by anybody until the Civil War,.]
They weren't used until civil war but maybe there were prototypes before. Maybe he used a prototype.
Title: Re:Help with nagging question?
Post by: cigar joe on October 18, 2004, 03:51:26 AM
AFOD is chronologically in "Leone's West" the LAST of the Trilogy.  The machine gun that used the discharged gasses of the fired bullet to advance to the next round they didn't appear until the very late 1800's. Leone used Spanish Army equipment in the films, especially evident in GBU. GBU had actual hand cranked gatling guns.
Title: Re:Help with nagging question?
Post by: Concorde on November 15, 2004, 06:09:29 AM
 ???

I've puzzled over the same question myself many times. The machine gun appears to be the exact same one that is used by the hero in the first DJANGO movie, a film which gives us much better and longer views of the weapon.

In an effort to find out exactly what is, years ago I posted a small picture of it on various antique weapon and militaria websites, but in all that time I NEVER got a definitive answer. I even went to the United States Military Academy Museum two times and pored over their extensive collection of old machine guns, and I never found anything there that matched the FOD/DJANGO weapon.

What is particularly distinctive about this mystery gun is that it appears to have multiple barrels enclosed within a large heat-shield barrel shroud. I say multiple barrels because the muzzle flash appears to alternate between different openings on its "pepper box" front-piece.

I'm close to concluding that this might actually be just some silly "fantasy" blank-firing gun built from scratch by an Italian or German propman specifically for movie company applications, and NOT a real production model of an actual military device....
Title: Re: Help with nagging question?
Post by: Harmonica on April 11, 2005, 05:04:25 PM
There was no such weapon ever manufactued such as the one used by Ramon in FOD...

It is simply a movie prop gun, that same one used in the Django movies I think...

(http://img62.exs.cx/img62/6350/fodmachinegun47sl.jpg)

Ramons Super Modified Gattling/Machine Pepper Box Gun!!!
Title: Re: Help with nagging question?
Post by: Concorde on April 11, 2005, 06:18:01 PM
Gosh, Harmonica, thanks for the reply.....which I'll have to file under "Better Late Than Never."

 ;)
Title: Re: Help with nagging question?
Post by: Harmonica on April 11, 2005, 08:08:03 PM
Hey, I was posting the pic up at the Eastwood Web Board and figured, what the hell, I might as well post it up here as well....
Title: Re: Help with nagging question?
Post by: Concorde on April 11, 2005, 08:18:55 PM
Thanks!

I approve!

 :)   :)   ;D
Title: Re: Help with nagging question?
Post by: Harmonica on April 17, 2005, 06:45:34 PM
Some interesting information I found during my research...

There was a Belgian gun called the  Montigny Mitrailleuse which was designed in 1850 and produced in 1869.  Although not a truly automatic machine gun it does have a barrel that resembles Ramons super prototype badass pepperbox gun...  My guess is that the prop masters took the barral off on of these Mitrailleuse's and slaped it on the front of a Maxim...

The Belgian Montigny Mitrailleuse (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~brett/cmgc/emmagees/mg011.html)

(http://www.rudi-geudens.be/images/19_belg_art_09.jpg)(http://www.rudi-geudens.be/images/19_belg_art_12.jpg)

(http://img179.exs.cx/img179/7946/fodmachinegun03zz.jpg)
 :D
Ramon's super badass prototype pepperbox gun...

Title: Re: Help with nagging question?
Post by: Concorde on April 18, 2005, 03:18:37 AM
Fascinating! The barrel-shroud looks identical, but the receiver is completely different.

The Belgian gun on the left -- the one with wheels -- is it a hand-crank weapon or a full-auto? What other info do you have on these?

 ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Help with nagging question?
Post by: Tiger on April 20, 2005, 12:50:35 PM
(http://www.rudi-geudens.be/images/19_belg_art_10.jpg)

From the same site, seems like handcrank to me. Also the hole-pattern in the barrel doesn't look the same to me.
Title: Re: Help with nagging question?
Post by: Tiger on April 22, 2005, 01:59:09 AM
Ok, have been searching around a bit.

First of all I think we all agree Ramon's gun is an automatic one. There's no crank visible in the movie, we don't see Ramon cranking. There's clearly two handles on the backside which would be stupid if you had to put one hand on a crank somewhere anyway. So, automatic ...

All machine gun sites I've come accross agree on one thing. The first automatic machine gun was produced by Maxim and demonstrated in 1885. They also say it was purchased by the British Army in 1889 and first used in 1893, but then again you never know who was at the demo and learned a thing or two there  ;D .

So if Leone was true to history it gives us a minimum timing for FOD. However I've not seen a single picture resembling the Ramon gun, so I stick with Harmonica's first opinion, it's just a cool looking prop.
Title: Re: Help with nagging question?
Post by: Man with no dame on May 24, 2007, 04:44:34 AM
There's no crank visible in the movie,....... it's just a cool looking prop.
(http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb167/manwithnodame/VImage007.jpg)  There is a visible crank, which kind of proves it was a hybrid prop. A pepper-box style machine gun like this, would have spent it's ordinance in very quick fashion, and ripped horse and soldier to shreds. There was no one in the wagon to re-load, and I doubt any remaining soldiers would have waited for Ramon to do it. Most definitely a prop.
Title: Re: Help with nagging question?
Post by: cigar joe on May 24, 2007, 02:55:18 PM
As in AFOD &  Django the cartridge belt never moves.