Sergio Leone Web Board

Other/Miscellaneous => Off-Topic Discussion => Topic started by: PowerRR on October 23, 2017, 07:16:34 AM

Title: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: PowerRR on October 23, 2017, 07:16:34 AM
Written, Directed, and Shot by Paul Thomas Anderson
Starring Daniel Day-Lewis
Original Score by Johnny Greenwood

December 25th

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNsiQMeSvMk

Set in the glamour of 1950s post-war London, renowned dressmaker Reynolds Woodcock (Day-Lewis) and his sister Cyril (Leslie Manville) are at the center of British fashion, dressing royalty, movie stars, heiresses, socialites, debutants and dames with the distinct style of The House of Woodcock. Women come and go through Woodcockís life, providing the confirmed bachelor with inspiration and companionship, until he comes across a young, strong-willed woman, Alma (Vicky Krieps), who soon becomes a fixture in his life as his muse and lover. Once controlled and planned, he finds his carefully tailored life disrupted by love.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: dave jenkins on October 23, 2017, 07:30:02 AM
Looking forward to that Greenwood OST CD!
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: noodles_leone on October 23, 2017, 12:23:51 PM
The first tune is the beginning of "Jill" on repeat.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: moviesceleton on October 23, 2017, 10:14:37 PM
I'm excited.

And looks like PTA is also the new hot cinematographer in town. Could be the "debut" of the year.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: Novecento on October 24, 2017, 06:47:15 PM
There are few things I will watch solely because of the actor(s) in it - I'm usually more interested in the actual crew (director, editor, cinematographer etc...). However, Daniel Day-Lewis' participation is enough to make me excited about this.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: dave jenkins on October 25, 2017, 08:08:40 AM
Actually, the trailer does a good job of selling this. Looks like a great date movie.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: PowerRR on November 29, 2017, 01:54:45 PM
I saw an advanced screening. It was of course excellent. Compared to the rest of PTA's filmography, it's a minor work in scope ... very much just based in one house. It's much lighter in tone than the trailer suggests, and with many Hitchcock-esque moments. DDL is great, Vicky Krieps outdoes him. It's a slow start but the movie turns quite fun in a weird way, and like The Master, lots going on thematically. TONS and TONS of Greenwood's score which is his best yet. It feels like a fully scored silent film at times. Beautifully shot with an uncredited cinematographer. I will be buying the 4K UHD blu and watching it many many times... no question.

Because I love lists, here is a list. You'll notice many 10's. Keep in mind that probably more than half of the movies I would give a "10" to at all are between PTA and Leone.

1. The Master - 10
2. Boogie Nights - 10
3. Magnolia - 10
4. There Will Be Blood - 10
5. Punch-Drunk Love - 9
6. Phantom Thread - 8
7. Hard Eight - 7.5
8. Inherent Vice - 7
9. Junun - 6
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 30, 2017, 03:27:20 PM
https://www.wmagazine.com/story/exclusive-daniel-day-lewis-giving-up-acting-phantom-thread
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: PowerRR on December 26, 2017, 11:44:21 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT_XjcdgT6g

Greenwood's first Oscar on it's way!

and hopefully PTA's, at least for screenwriting.

Any of you New Yorkers smart enough to go see this now that it's out?
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: dave jenkins on December 26, 2017, 08:54:27 PM
Any of you New Yorkers smart enough to go see this now that it's out?
I am away for the holidays, but I intend to see this when I get back.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: PowerRR on December 26, 2017, 10:19:41 PM
I am away for the holidays, but I intend to see this when I get back.
I think.... I think... you will really love this movie. There's a certain person that will consider this PTA's masterpiece so far, and I feel you're that person.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: dave jenkins on December 28, 2017, 07:03:11 PM
Huh. Better than The Master? A tall order, but welcome if true.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 28, 2017, 10:06:29 PM
I just saw this movie and found it excruciating, which means all you fanboys will probably love it.

 
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: cigar joe on December 29, 2017, 03:43:00 AM
I just saw this movie and found it excruciating, which means all you fanboys will probably love it.

 

In what way excruciating? explain to a non fanboy?  ^-^
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: PowerRR on December 29, 2017, 08:19:55 AM
I just saw this movie and found it excruciating, which means all you fanboys will probably love it.

 
idiot. Is it because there was some comedy?

And donít forget Iím the only PTA fanboy here, and Iíve alrwady seen it and thought it was great . Only n_l doesnít hate  the guy like the rest of you fools
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: PowerRR on December 29, 2017, 08:21:27 AM
Huh. Better than The Master? A tall order, but welcome if true.
nah. I think the master is the best movie made since I was conceived in late Ď91. But maybe you will like this more. Or at least more so than Inherent Vice which I donít blame anyone for hating
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 29, 2017, 10:51:25 AM
Only n_l doesnít hate  the guy like the rest of you fools

I have nothing against PTA.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 29, 2017, 11:31:10 AM
In what way excruciating? explain to a non fanboy?  ^-^

OK I will discuss the plot; needless to say, if spoilers bother you, don't read this thread.

This movie is basically the same shit for 2 hours. Day-Lewis is the designer. His whole life is based on designing dresses for women. Then he meets this woman and brings her into his life; she loves him and and he spends the whole movie being irritated by everything she does. That's all. He's working on designs while she's buttering the toast, so he complains that she is too loud. She walks into his room while he's working to bring him the tea, and he complains that she interrupts. He is more respectful to his ever-present assistant than to this supposed girlfriend. Occasionally there are moments of warmth, but mostly just coldness. It doesn't take too long for me to start tearing my hair out and saying WHY THE FUCK DON'T YOU JUST WALK OUT OF THE HOUSE ALREADY? Bear in mind that we never even see them touch each other. They sleep in separate rooms, we never see them touch each other. WHAT THE FUCK IS SHE DOING STAYING IN THAT HOUSE. I start to wonder whether he is even straight.


Eventually - and now I am REALLY spoiling the plot, so stop reading if you care - she gets so desperate that she poisons him with mushrooms, just so that he'd be sick and needy. And it works. He falls ill, he needs her, he then for the first time falls in love, they get married, we see some affection and mild physical contact for the first time. Doesn't take long for him to start getting irritated again ... and I won't mention here what happens the last few minutes. The ending is somewhat clever. Gave me one chuckle at the end of two excruciating hours. If you enjoy basically two hours of seeing a man acting coldly and bitching at a woman, while she suffers, go ahead and watch this movie. Make love to it.

I give this a 2/10, only because it is the holiday season and I am feeling generous.

Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: PowerRR on December 29, 2017, 01:21:43 PM
Those are all pretty fair points, it is often difficult to see why Alma even has an attraction to Woodcock. I think he has a lot of charm and a lot of love to give but just doesnít know is to do it. But I never see him as a truly malicious character, instead a childish one. Maybe Alma isnít the most stable person? We donít know as much about her past as we do about Woodcockís. Itís a movie about a relationship between two very imperfect people, and maybe sometimes they hate each other, but I think thereís a love in there too, one thatís hard to define.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: T.H. on December 29, 2017, 02:49:32 PM
And donít forget Iím the only PTA fanboy here, and Iíve alrwady seen it and thought it was great . Only n_l doesnít hate  the guy like the rest of you fools
Boogie Nights is one of my favorite movies and I don't dislike any of his movies, but I definitely would like the 90s Scorsese + Altman influenced PTA to come back instead of the Max Ophuls + Joseph Losey inspired guy of the 10s.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: dave jenkins on December 29, 2017, 05:42:18 PM
If you enjoy basically two hours of seeing a man acting coldly and bitching at a woman, while she suffers, go ahead and watch this movie. Make love to it.
Now I can't wait to see it! Thanks, Drink.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: cigar joe on December 30, 2017, 03:48:52 AM
idiot. Is it because there was some comedy?

And donít forget Iím the only PTA fanboy here, and Iíve alrwady seen it and thought it was great . Only n_l doesnít hate  the guy like the rest of you fools

drinkanddestroy doesn't like comedy, that's what he's talking about?
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 30, 2017, 03:51:02 PM
drinkanddestroy doesn't like comedy, that's what he's talking about?

No CJ, RRPower was making a joke. Thereís no comedy in this movie.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 30, 2017, 03:54:06 PM
Those are all pretty fair points, it is often difficult to see why Alma even has an attraction to Woodcock. I think he has a lot of charm and a lot of love to give but just doesnít know is to do it. But I never see him as a truly malicious character, instead a childish one. Maybe Alma isnít the most stable person? We donít know as much about her past as we do about Woodcockís. Itís a movie about a relationship between two very imperfect people, and maybe sometimes they hate each other, but I think thereís a love in there too, one thatís hard to define.

I donít think he is an evil man. Just an extremely selfish man who gets irritated at just about anything.

She is probably attracted to his fame, or his art, whatever.

These are two people I so donít care about. When the ending happens, which I wonít discuss, I just so donít give a shit because I donít give a damn about these people. I was just happy this movie was over.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: PowerRR on December 31, 2017, 02:25:22 PM
No CJ, RRPower was making a joke. Thereís no comedy in this movie.
It was darkly funny, for sure. The screening I was at had the audience laughing quite a bit. Many reviews point out its humor. I would not say it's as funny as The Master, but there is definitely intended humor in there.

These are two people I so donít care about. When the ending happens, which I wonít discuss, I just so donít give a shot because I donít give a damn about these people. I was just happy this movie was over.
I mean, fair enough, if that's how you feel. I cared very much about these characters ...particularly Alma. Maybe others will too, maybe not

Boogie Nights is one of my favorite movies and I don't dislike any of his movies, but I definitely would like the 90s Scorsese + Altman influenced PTA to come back instead of the Max Ophuls + Joseph Losey inspired guy of the 10s.
That could be nice. That's what I thought Inherent Vice would be. But, I like the direction he's going... maybe it'd be disappointing to see him go back to the more fun but less interesting style. While there is Ophuls inspiration, especially in Phantom Thread, I feel that his post-Magnolia movies establish him more as an auteur with a specific-feeling though hard-to-define style,  rather than a Scorsese/Altman copycat.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: T.H. on January 02, 2018, 01:27:04 PM
That could be nice. That's what I thought Inherent Vice would be. But, I like the direction he's going... maybe it'd be disappointing to see him go back to the more fun but less interesting style. While there is Ophuls inspiration, especially in Phantom Thread, I feel that his post-Magnolia movies establish him more as an auteur with a specific-feeling though hard-to-define style,  rather than a Scorsese/Altman copycat.
I think copycat is way too harsh of a word. I can't really argue against something like The Master being his most original movie, but I'd take the pure entertainment value, humor, fun, etc of Boogie Nights over anything he's done.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: Novecento on January 06, 2018, 11:25:32 AM
I haven't read any of the above posts yet for fear of spoilers, but the AFI Silver near me is screening the 70mm blow-up version so I will definitely make the effort to go see it. I'm really looking forward to the cinematography - I've heard it is quite "Carol"-esque in that regard. Hopefully, unlike "Carol" what I'll appreciate won't just be the cinematography however.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: Moorman on January 07, 2018, 08:16:02 AM
I had skipped over this thread ever since it was started, because, for some reason, i thought this phantom thread was about that OTHER phantom, lmao:

(http://i68.tinypic.com/2419hdt.jpg)
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: Novecento on January 13, 2018, 05:48:54 AM
Judging by what the critical reception has been, it seems great photography and acting counts for just about everything (besides the plot) in the eyes of critics. Regarding some earlier comments here:

... very much just based in one house.

And there I have to give Pablo LarraŪn the edge for "Jackie" in another "White" House. "Phantom Thread" had some nice camerawork, but not close to being on a par with "Jackie"

DDL is great, Vicky Krieps outdoes him.

I don't think she outdoes him (this is DDL after all), but she does put in a great perfomance. However aren't you forgetting Leslie Manville (the sister)? I don't usually pay that much attention to acting, but all three of them really carried this picture.

TONS and TONS of Greenwood's score...

Yes it was nice, although it sometimes felt more like background music than something intertwined with the imagery.

Beautifully shot with an uncredited cinematographer.

As in PTA? I saw the 70mm blowup version and it was really nice to see proper grain on proper film.

The ending is somewhat clever.

Yes it was and felt rewarding after watching the whole thing.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: Novecento on January 13, 2018, 06:10:11 AM
... it seems great photography...

I saw the 70mm blowup version and it was really nice to see proper grain on proper film.

I should probably add to this point that while "Phantom Thread" was nice in this regard, I preferred Lachman's work on "Carol" for a similar period piece even though I did not have the opportunity to watch that on actual film.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: dave jenkins on January 13, 2018, 11:46:04 AM
screening the 70mm blow-up version
I may be seeing this tomorrow. I'll let you know.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 13, 2018, 04:03:32 PM
So Novocento, what do you think of the movie?
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: Novecento on January 13, 2018, 08:59:51 PM
I liked it and enjoyed the 70mm experience but have no particular desire to see it again. I certainly did find myself getting a little restless at points so do sympathize with your position to a limited degree. As I said before, Day-Lewis is probably the only living actor whose presence would make me want to watch something regardless of anything else. The plot actually seemed quite Tornatore-esque to me even down to the humor, so in my very biased way, I feel I would have liked it more had he been at the helm since it would have tugged at my emotions a little more. I was surprised there was not more emphasis on the idea of messages being sewn into the seams of the garments.

Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: PowerRR on January 15, 2018, 07:03:16 AM
I saw it again, this time blown up to 70mm. Looks gorgeous.

Unlike most PTA movies, I don't think my opinion changed on a repeat viewing. I think this is a solid 8/10 and certainly better than his weaker half of works (Hard Eight, Inherent Vice, Junun). It has it's flaws and could benefit by being a bit shorter, maybe a bit more generically 'romantic' at times, with a bit more exploration into the past of the two main characters (Woodcock & his mother, Alma at all). Needless to say I see myself watching this many times.

I think it's more technical merits are really where it shines. The camerawork and on-screen movement feels controlled in a good way, the music and its use is gorgeous (The OST is out now!), the photography is unique and beautiful. A+ acting all around.

One of the better movies all year, and somewhere in the lower middle of PTA's filmography IMO.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: Novecento on January 16, 2018, 08:52:53 PM
Did they give you a program with some images and credits at the end to go with the screening?
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: PowerRR on January 18, 2018, 01:35:11 PM
Wan it seems pretty cool but havenít had much a chance to look at it yet. I will tonight or tomorrow
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: Novecento on January 18, 2018, 09:07:39 PM
Wan it seems pretty cool but havenít had much a chance to look at it yet. I will tonight or tomorrow

Personally I would have preferred a set of lobby cards with a traditional title card to put me more into the traditional screening frame of mind...
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: noodles_leone on January 24, 2018, 03:28:02 PM
http://www.indiewire.com/2018/01/phantom-thread-live-orchestra-score-screenings-brooklyn-bam-los-angeles-ace-hotel-1201920670/
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: Novecento on January 24, 2018, 08:47:27 PM
Ok - so this was a decent movie which I enjoyed especially in 70mm. I certainly did not hate it like DJ and Drink did, however I clearly did not love it as much as RR Power did.

I also get it that it might have been DDL's last ever performance and that he did perform with his usual brilliance. However, all these overly laudatory reviews are starting to rub me the wrong way. Are they all just reading each others' opinions on line and then being afraid to be the one to be critical? Well, it probably isn't the first time, and in this day and age it won't be the last :(
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: noodles_leone on February 28, 2018, 11:41:24 AM
I saw an advanced screening. It was of course excellent. Compared to the rest of PTA's filmography, it's a minor work in scope ... very much just based in one house. It's much lighter in tone than the trailer suggests, and with many Hitchcock-esque moments. DDL is great, Vicky Krieps outdoes him. It's a slow start but the movie turns quite fun in a weird way, and like The Master, lots going on thematically. TONS and TONS of Greenwood's score which is his best yet. It feels like a fully scored silent film at times. Beautifully shot with an uncredited cinematographer. I will be buying the 4K UHD blu and watching it many many times... no question.

THAT WAS AWESOME!

A great and inspiring story about love and hard work. You're 100%: the real star here isn't DDL, it's Vicky Fucking Krieps (and actually most of the numerous women in the film). It features 2 kisses that are in my top 10 movie kisses of all time. I wasn't bored for a second except for the last half and hour, and just as I thought PTA had lost me he totally won me over.

I'm surprised RR says it feels like a fully scored silent movie as well as I'm surprised everybody talks about how the films looks: yes, it looks gorgeous, but that's a given now for post any There Will Be Blood PTA film. The real surprise is how terrific it sounds and the extent sound is used as the main storytelling tool here.

8-8.5/10, it could reach 9/10 with repeated viewings.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: PowerRR on March 01, 2018, 08:32:59 AM
THAT WAS AWESOME!

A great and inspiring story about love and hard work. You're 100%: the real star here isn't DDL, it's Vicky Fucking Krieps (and actually most of the numerous women in the film). It features 2 kisses that are in my top 10 movie kisses of all time. I wasn't bored for a second except for the last half and hour, and just as I thought PTA had lost me he totally won me over.

I'm surprised RR says it feels like a fully scored silent movie as well as I'm surprised everybody talks about how the films looks: yes, it looks gorgeous, but that's a given now for post any There Will Be Blood PTA film. The real surprise is how terrific it sounds and the extent sound is used as the main storytelling tool here.

8-8.5/10, it could reach 9/10 with repeated viewings.
goooood, goooood, verrry gooood!

Blu Ray comes out April 10th....im excited to watch it endlessly for the rest of of my life
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: noodles_leone on March 01, 2018, 11:07:33 AM
Those are all pretty fair points, it is often difficult to see why Alma even has an attraction to Woodcock. I think he has a lot of charm and a lot of love to give but just doesnít know is to do it. But I never see him as a truly malicious character, instead a childish one. Maybe Alma isnít the most stable person? We donít know as much about her past as we do about Woodcockís. Itís a movie about a relationship between two very imperfect people, and maybe sometimes they hate each other, but I think thereís a love in there too, one thatís hard to define.

Spoilers all over the place, obviously:

It's a film about true love. Gone Girl in 1950's London. Of course they're 2 nevrotic characters, but then again, who isn't?

Also, for those who didn't get the movie, in the end she makes it very clear that she loves most of his sides, even the ones you or I think aren't likeable. She doesn't only love the tender and weak Woodcock, she also loves the strong and weird but fully dedicated to his work Woodcock. I don't see what's difficult to grasp or even judge about it.

"I want you flat on your back. Helpless, tender, open with only me to help. And then I want you strong again. You're not going to die. You might wish you're going to die, but you're not going to. You need to settle down a little."

They're perfect for each other.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 01, 2018, 02:33:36 PM
shit shit shit

fanboys fanboys fanboys

force yourself to like an excruciating piece of crap  ;D
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: dave jenkins on March 01, 2018, 02:35:49 PM
They're perfect for each other.
Then let's leave them alone together and not mix in.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: noodles_leone on March 01, 2018, 04:46:36 PM
shit shit shit

fanboys fanboys fanboys

force yourself to like an excruciating piece of crap  ;D

I really expected the film to be boring, especially given the lack of enthusiasm of the PTA lovers. It wasn't at all. I even found it pretty easy to watch, which isn't something I expect from a PTA film these days. I mean I totally get how some (terrible) people can find The Master, Inherent Vice or There Will Be Blood "excruciating", but Phantom Thread? What kind of shit do you find entertaining?

Then let's leave them alone together and not mix in.

Needless to say, I totally disagree with that on every level but:  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 01, 2018, 07:31:02 PM
I really expected the film to be boring, especially given the lack of enthusiasm of the PTA lovers. It wasn't at all. I even found it pretty easy to watch, which isn't something I expect from a PTA film these days. I mean I totally get how some (terrible) people can find The Master, Inherent Vice or There Will Be Blood "excruciating", but Phantom Thread? What kind of shit do you find entertaining?


There Will Be Blood is a very good movie
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: Novecento on March 01, 2018, 08:19:54 PM
The real surprise is how terrific it sounds and the extent sound is used as the main storytelling tool here.

Excluding the amusing use of accentuated natural sound during moments when DDL wants silence over breakfast etc, can you give some other examples?
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: noodles_leone on March 02, 2018, 03:53:56 AM
There Will Be Blood is a very good movie

It's a masterpiece you philistine!

Excluding the amusing use of accentuated natural sound during moments when DDL wants silence over breakfast etc, can you give some other examples?

There is a good possibility that I'm overthinking and what follows wasn't fully intented that way by the filmmakers but this is definitely what I got from my first viewing. It doesn't really matters as the sound is what it is because it is what sounded "right" for the movie, no matter how well thought or just felt it was by PTA.

Reynold is all about full control so the sounds that surround him are mostly soft and "comfie". Like many said, he is a childish character and in a way the sounds in his house are the ones that could surround and protect a baby in his carriage. When we first meet him, the whole sequence is about the house "waking up" and all his little ladies running around the place in a very quiet way. They all look and act like nannies, by the way. That doesn't mean he hasn't secret urges in him (like every proper PTA character), which may be why I found all these soft and quiet sounds way more sensual than they should be. To me, some part of Reynold, deep inside, is very similar to Alma. It is true that we see very little physical contact between them, but I'm pretty confident they have an agitated and wild sex life when things are good between them.

Raw, rough, creaking, aggressive and let's say it, almost Leonian sounds such as the breakfast ones are the sounds associated with Alma and what she brings to the table. Remember how she is introduced to us more by sound (Alma enters the dining room and noisily stumbles on a table). She likes places with a lot of noise (the big party, for instance, even if she isn't shown really interacting with anyone here). There are many instances in the movie where either the plot implies or a character explicitly states that she disrupts Reynold's universe and life, and the sound design is all about that.

I don't remember about the sound design or the exact timing of the couple of driving scenes. I know one of them is when Alma and Reynold go on their first date. The first one is probably when Reynold goes to the place where he meets Alma first? Anyway the shots are (voluntarily) unstable and either the music or the sound design is loud and agitated. These are the first clues that DDL's character actually needs disruption, aka Alma. The ending of the movie makes that very explicit: as a human being, he needs Alma, as a creator, he needs Alma.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: Novecento on March 02, 2018, 09:54:00 AM
Raw, rough, creaking, aggressive and let's say it, almost Leonian sounds such as the breakfast ones are the sounds associated with Alma and what she brings to the table. Remember how she is introduced to us more by sound (Alma enters the dining room and noisily stumbles on a table).

True, and while it was done well, it was nonetheless a very predictable approach. Reynolds likes his silence and Alma disrupts it - what better/other way to show it? Leone's use of sound was less automatic - there was nothing in the plot or characters dictating that he had to do it in that way, but his choice to do it that way created an atmosphere in his films that has never really been equaled.
 
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: noodles_leone on March 02, 2018, 10:39:16 AM
While I agree the breakfast sounds are the more cartoonish and predictable ones, the rest of the movie proves you 100% wrong ;)

By the way: like you say, Leone use of sound was all about atmosphere. Here, it is about characters. While I don't think anybody came close to Leone's atmospheric use of sound design (apart from Ben Burtt, who isn't a director but should be accountable for a good 40% of the world building that went into Star Wars and an approximate 33% of its success), many filmmakers, including PTA have used sound in much more creative, deep and refined ways. It is totally normal by the way: the technology wasn't ready for Leone's talent and love for total control of his imagery and sound. He would have gone so far if he had had access instant replay, almost unlimited takes, programmable technocranes and digital audio mix with its unlimited number of tracks.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: Novecento on March 02, 2018, 12:28:54 PM
the technology wasn't ready for Leone's talent and love for total control of his imagery and sound. He would have gone so far if he had had access instant replay, almost unlimited takes, programmable technocranes and digital audio mix with its unlimited number of tracks.

I disagree. Improved technology has made things significantly easier to achieve, but has concomitantly destroyed creativity. When you have to endlessly go over the same material or processes to achieve a desired result, you get a much better feel for it and better appreciate how to manipulate and shape it. Nowadays, it's all done so easily that people just are able ti move on to the next thing before really creating anything special at all. If anything, Leone's films would have suffered in today's technologically superior world.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: noodles_leone on March 03, 2018, 10:17:14 AM
I disagree. Improved technology has made things significantly easier to achieve, but has concomitantly destroyed creativity. When you have to endlessly go over the same material or processes to achieve a desired result, you get a much better feel for it and better appreciate how to manipulate and shape it. Nowadays, it's all done so easily that people just are able ti move on to the next thing before really creating anything special at all. If anything, Leone's films would have suffered in today's technologically superior world.

Wow, you seriously think that? I couldn't disagree more with every single word. This is totally in contradiction with my experience both as an audience and as a filmmaker.

1- Technology gives freedom to creatives, and freedom is a good thing, no matter how you look at it.
2- Painters and writers don't need technology to reach a must bigger freedom than filmmakers have today. According to your logic, no good book or painting has ever been created.
3- Some people cannot use these technologies the right way but still use them... And you seriously think the problem is with the technology? It's so obvious these guys would have struggled exactly as much with any kind of movie making. I mean, Joss Whedon is Joss Whedon, whether you give him 10 RED cameras on technocranes or a camera created by the Lumiere brothers.
4- Improved technology has made things easier to achieve when you have a vision so we can push things further but they haven't made anything EASY about making a good film. It's still something infinitely difficult to achieve.
5- Cinema today is WAY (as in "1.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 times", I did the math) more diverse than it was in the 60's. Mainstream cinema isn't, but this is a discussion about technology, not finance and globalization.

Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying because no matter how I look at it, it just doesn't make any kind of sense :)
... or maybe you were talking about something very specific?
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: Novecento on March 03, 2018, 05:59:10 PM
Lesley Walker put it more eloquently than me:

Quote
Because [electronic editing] is so immediate you sort of rush at it like some lunatic, instead of slowly going through it. It takes your thinking time away and I find that annoying... I like to look at it and sit and think about it. The Avid and me are not the greatest pals, really, in that way. I do move around, I do take more breaks but it actually breaks my concentration, whereas I would never take a break while I was cutting on film, because my breaks would be wandering over to the trim bin, to put a trim up.

Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: noodles_leone on March 04, 2018, 01:59:05 AM
Oh OK! I thought so. It's only a problem for a few editors and directors who learned to work the other way and donít like their habits changed: they needed some adaptation time. By the way, when was Lesley quoted saying that? I suspect it was at the start of the transition.

There is absolutely nothing in Avid/Premiere Pro/Final Cut that makes you stop thinking before you act, just like Word hasnít make writers stop thinking before they write. By making things easier, they have removed some barriers and time consuming tasks which means you have actually way more time for doing what you actually need (which could be thinking). You can still sit around and think exactly how long you need.

They have removed the tactile part of editing, which is a problem for some, but just a taste issue. It has no negative impact on the output whatsoever.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: stanton on March 04, 2018, 02:57:35 AM
I easily agree with Noodles here.

There were and there are always people who use creatively what they can get, and others don't.

Modern cinema is as amazing as it was in the best years of every decade before.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: Novecento on March 04, 2018, 04:00:54 AM
just like Word hasnít make writers stop thinking before they write.

Nor would returning to using kinetoscopes suddenly boost creative potential

You can still sit around and think exactly how long you need.

Of course you can. That's the point.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: Novecento on March 05, 2018, 09:27:51 AM
There were and there are always people who use creatively what they can get, and others don't.

Modern cinema is as amazing as it was in the best years of every decade before.

Sure - in certain cases that is indeed the case. I would venture to suggest that it comes down to acute self-awareness on the part of select industry veterans and their very careful mentoring of the younger generation.

It's actually a very broad issue that goes well beyond the film industry to cover the rapid growth of technology in many other areas of life too.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: noodles_leone on March 08, 2018, 08:08:38 AM
PTA's masterclass in Paris (the questions are in French but he answers in English) about Phantom Thread:

https://youtu.be/Xn0jUdBxKlo

(they talk about sound, starting around 15'00)
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: noodles_leone on July 08, 2018, 03:56:04 AM
Saw the film again yesterday, it still sounds terriffic, it still looks terrific, it still is terrific. Probably the best dialogues in any PTA movie.

ďSheís getting fat sitting around waiting for you to fall in love with her again.Ē
ďThe tea is leaving, but the interruption is staying right here with me.Ē
ďDonít pick a fight with me, you wonít come out alive. Iíll go right through and youíll end up on the floor.Ē
"There is an air of quiet death in this house and I don't like it."
"Kiss me my girl before I'm sick."
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: PowerRR on July 08, 2018, 07:56:32 AM
When I first watched the movie, the scene where Woodcock is measuring Alma for fitting made me think that it was this movie's version of a sex scene ...this was later confirmed to be true by PTA and his editor Dylan Tichenor.

Makes me wonder if "processing" was The Master's version of a sex scene (very intimate, sharing cigs after), as I just rewatched it the other day (definitely my favorite PTA film). With "Slow Boat to China" being their bittersweet break-up sex.

That, or I've seen that movie too fucking much and now I have to make stuff up.

As for as Phantom Thread, seen it 3 times now. Excellent but I don't love it as much as most PTA movies.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: noodles_leone on July 08, 2018, 09:14:58 AM
When I first watched the movie, the scene where Woodcock is measuring Alma for fitting made me think that it was this movie's version of a sex scene ...this was later confirmed to be true by PTA and his editor Dylan Tichenor.

Haha interesting.

As for as Phantom Thread, seen it 3 times now. Excellent but I don't love it as much as most PTA movies.

I put it with Punch Drunk Love: very low scale, but in many ways deeper and more sincere than his more ambitious work. I'm still a There Will Be Blood sucker though.

Also, Phantom Thread features at least one of the greatest kisses in the history. If not two.
Title: Re: Phantom Thread (2017)
Post by: PowerRR on July 08, 2018, 11:17:56 AM
I put it with Punch Drunk Love: very low scale, but in many ways deeper and more sincere than his more ambitious work. I'm still a There Will Be Blood sucker though.
i think Phantom is his best that isnít a masterpiece. Boogie, Magnolia, PDL, TWBB and The Master are easy 10s for me. Phantom is probably more of an 8, where Junun IV and H8 are in the 6-7 range