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Films of Sergio Leone => Other Films => Topic started by: cigar joe on November 04, 2004, 05:00:12 AM



Title: A Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on November 04, 2004, 05:00:12 AM

I've had mixed results with following Howard Hughes "Pocket Essentials Spaghetti Westerns" trying to expand my collection of good SW's, what we really need is a "Leone Lovers Guide to Spaghetti Westerns. Hughes is giving a more historical perspective covering the essential SW's of the genre, films that set precedents, benchmarks, big euro/italo box office and not necessarily something we Leone weaned fans would generaly like.

If I had to compile a list of the Leone Lover's Guide to SW DVD's this would be my current "A" list with the most similar in style and quality to Leone at the top and farther down the more they stray, not necessarily in quality but in style. Some of my criteria would be story, entertainment, cinematography, quality, look, actors, sets, score. This list only includes the the DVD's or VHS tapes I've seen and the Zapata Westerns also.

A lot of the "A" list features Morricone scores, but beware of Keoma, this Lenoard Cohen/Tiny Tim sounding score is a turn off to some, watch it with the sound off, lol. Another warning, some of your favorite Leone actors are dubbed by different voice actors, this has been commented on espcially for Gian Maria Volonte in "A Bullet for the General" and "Face to Face", some of the full lenght uncut films were never dubbed in English so in these segments the actors speak Italian with English subtitles, a small price to pay to see a directors full cut.

The one great experience you'll get in watching some of these films is that very same one you felt seeing Leone's westerns for the first time, they really bring you back to that initial "WOW" partly because they are so familiar and yet different almost like distant relatives.

The Almeria scenery and that different style stands out in stark contrast from most of the post SW modern western films we see today. For those of you who were around when the first Leone SW's  came out on the big screens some of these will be like going back in time.  

The "A" list so far:

The Big Gundown
The Mercenary
Companero's
Run Man Run
Face To Face
Death Rides A Horse
The Great Silence
Keoma
A Bullet For The General

The "B" List:

A Man Called Sledge
A Minute To Pray A Second to Die

The not sure if they are classified as Spaghetti Westerns but likely Euro Westerns shot in Almeria List:

Red Sun
Shalako
100 Rifles

More to come here.

To Stay away from List:

El Condor
Django
Navajo Joe
Captain Apache (the worst so far)
A Bullet For Sandoval (VHS)


*This list could probably go up into the 100's but I'm not going to be inclined to watching many off the wall SW's, if you drop in on the SW's board you'll hear about a lot of obscure titles.

Feel free to add or comment.



Title: Re:Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: redyred on November 04, 2004, 06:25:14 AM
Django and Navajo Joe belong on the A-list!

In fact thinking about it maybe we should have a "love 'em or hate 'em" list cos that's certainly what Django would fall into.

I'd also add God's Gun, Django Kill and Django il bastardo to the B-list.


Title: Re:Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: spag fan on November 04, 2004, 08:26:02 AM
I'd also add Four Of The Apocalypse to the B-list at least ( I'd put it on the A-list). Also B-list contenders: Texas Addios and Beyond the Law and Mannaja: A Man Called Blade.


Title: Re:Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on November 05, 2004, 05:49:16 AM
Quote
I'd also add Four Of The Apocalypse to the B-list at least ( I'd put it on the A-list). Also B-list contenders: Texas Addios and Beyond the Law and Mannaja: A Man Called Blade.

Django and Navajo Joe belong on the A-list!

In fact thinking about it maybe we should have a "love 'em or hate 'em" list cos that's certainly what Django would fall into.

I'd also add God's Gun, Django Kill and Django il bastardo to the B-list.


Awww come on redyred! doesn't Django Kill have the "gay muchacho's" you can't be serious and try to introduce some greenhorn to other spaghetti's with that? Is God's Gun anything remotely close to Leone? Those are for rabid fans, lol

Hold on now remember this is a list to break newbies into other quality SW's besides Leone's. Its my personal list so the films I haven;t seen I realy can't comment on.

These westerns should be considered not as Spaghetti Westerns but as legitimate westerns, I guess is what I mean.  This is part of the problem with Huges book, the list I made the "A" list is for someone who likes all american westerns and likes GBU, FFDM, AFFOD, OUTITW, and Clint Eastwood, and may not have a clue that these westerns were not home grown American, this person may not know Leone and has no clue about other SW's, this someone will think Eastwood is the God of Westerns and not know that a lot of his style and magic came through Leone.

My "A" list is incrementally from Top to Bottom a film at a time further and further removed from Leone style and more and more other  SW styles.

So any additions will have to in that further and further removed order.  

If you  are someone that considers Leone a God of SW's no way,  no way are you to have any credibility with them putting crap like Django and Navajo Joe on the "A" list.  Plunking $$$ down on someones recomend is serious, if you burn them they won't trust your judgement.

If you like any western no matter how bad that's a different ballgame. That what I'm trying to achieve here. lol


Title: Re:Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: spag fan on November 05, 2004, 06:50:18 AM

These westerns should be considered not as Spaghetti Westerns but as legitimate westerns, I guess is what I mean.  This is part of the problem with Huges book, the list I made the "A" list is for someone who likes all american westerns and likes GBU, FFDM, AFFOD, OUTITW, and Clint Eastwood, and may not have a clue that these westerns were not home grown American, this person may not know Leone and has no clue about other SW's, this someone will think Eastwood is the God of Westerns and not know that a lot of his style and magic came through Leone.


Then, I'd definitly yank Keoma off of that list! ;D To be honest, I think the fan you're speaking of would prefer something as mundane as Texas Addios over something as flambouyant as Keoma.


Title: Re:Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: noodles_leone on November 05, 2004, 08:14:58 AM
i don't like "django"... corbucci, who did something very good (not great) with "the great silence", was very desapointing... no camerawork... caricatural screenplay... awful music ("djangooo! djangooooooo!": very funny. What about the music?)...
But there is something strange: do you remember the bridge in that movie, where django finds the girl and where he looses his coffin? it looks to be the same as the one in gbu, when tuco arrives in a town, after blondie left him in the desert. I'm not sure because everything is wet in django, whereas it isn't in gbu.
Hard to say, but i do think it is the same bridge.


Title: Re:Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: DJIMBO on November 05, 2004, 09:41:30 AM
noodles_leone ur absolutely right. Django is so cheap, terrible acting, dialogue, dubbing and just so much of a ripoff of leone but somehow it manages to be utter shite. the killings are just so inexplicable, and it really is too violent but cheap, when the mexicans cut the evangelicals ear off you see it still on him in the next shot - that is cheap.
the only cool thing is the character of django, with the coffin n all, but even thats bodged up by Nero.
The sad thing is its regarded as one of the better Spaghetti Westerns.  :-\


Title: Re:Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: noodles_leone on November 05, 2004, 12:54:33 PM
i'm with you djimbo. before i saw it, i was thinking that was a great movie... i had eard of the coffin, i though that could be very good... and it isn't.
In french, the dubbing of nero as been done by the same guy who did the one of clint in gbu; and the strange thing is... he didn't do the job very well (whereas in gbu, he's perfect... one of the best dubbing ever). But it is true that with those dialogues, kind of bad  imitation of vincenzoni, it's very difficult to speak well :)


Title: Re:Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Two Kinds of ... on November 05, 2004, 03:06:48 PM
I like DJango more than almost ANY of the  Zapata Westerns.   The Bad guys is using humans as skeet when we meet him!


Title: Re:Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on November 06, 2004, 05:52:19 AM
Quote
I like DJango more than almost ANY of the  Zapata Westerns.  The Bad guys is using humans as skeet when we meet him!


I wonder if Mel Brooks ripped that off from Corbucci and used the same concept  for Louis VII in "History of the World Part I" lol, it is a funny grotesque sequence.

The Zapata Westerns I don't mind as much as some, in fact I'd like too see some of the Hollywood Versions again. I remember one of my favorite actors Wallace Berry, playing Pancho Villa, not sure I can put my finger on the title It may have been simply "Pancho Villa", and Yul Brynner in "Villa Rides was good too. There was also a more modern time flick almost a road picture with Robert Mitchum driving down to Mexico that was good.



Title: Re:Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on November 06, 2004, 05:57:56 AM
noodles_leone , you didn't mention Corbucci"s two Zapata Westerns, curious, have you seen them? They are light years apart from Django.

They are still a notch below GBU but very enjoyable in the same way. If you haven't seen them I suggest seeing The Mercenary first then Companeros. Stay away from A Proffessional Gun, its a shorter cut of The Mercenary.


Title: Re:Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Two Kinds of ... on November 06, 2004, 03:02:44 PM


I wonder if Mel Brooks ripped that off from Corbucci and used the same concept  for Louis VII in "History of the World Part I" lol, it is a funny grotesque sequence.

The Zapata Westerns I don't mind as much as some, in fact I'd like too see some of the Hollywood Versions again. I remember one of my favorite actors Wallace Berry, playing Pancho Villa, not sure I can put my finger on the title It may have been simply "Pancho Villa", and Yul Brynner in "Villa Rides was good too. There was also a more modern time flick almost a road picture with Robert Mitchum driving down to Mexico that was good.


All the revolution bs in Zapata Westerns bugs the crap out of me.   I like the opportunism and vengeance themes of Leone's Westerns up to Duck, where he got roped into some Zapata crap but at least had Coburn.   I like the Spaghetti Westerns that are about revenge or stealing or getting rich!


Title: Re:Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Nobody on November 06, 2004, 07:09:52 PM
Opinions on Django varies on this board to say the least, but it is a film that should without a doubt be on the A-list. Even if you don't like it, there's no denying that Django is the most influential non-Leone SW. Personally I like it a lot, but I've seen plenty which are a lot better.

It's kind of similar to The Jazz Singer. It's a huge classic, and a very influential film because it's the first film with sound, not because it is good. It isn't, it's crap, but I'd still recommend it to film buffs just as I'd recommend Django to SW buffs.


Title: Re:Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on November 07, 2004, 07:11:57 AM
Nobody, I respect your opinon on Django , it is a definite touchstone film of the SW Genre and it would be on any SW classic "A" list.

But my Leone Lovers Guide To SW's wasn't meant to be a guide to the SW Genre.  I suppose in retrospect I should have made an "Off The Wall" list to accomodate Django and Navajo Joe, and a seperate "Crap List".

My list POV is from my generation of American viewers who have not only grown up with 50's TV westerns and 30's-40's-50's and more recent AW's that were also repeatedly broadcast on TV but actually live in the American West, that are still cowboys, that drive the plains and deserts every day, that hunt and shoot guns for fun.

Just from the shear magnitude of Hollywood output there is a certain level of historical accuracy and I guess a code of the west that had been ingraved in your brain. Leone's films stayed "on the reservation" so to speak, they took all that was before and amplified certain codes, they definitely expanded the envelope of historical accuracy, and broke the mold in style. I'm trying to stay within this definition using Leone as benchmark.

There was a 60's period of american TV that had a lot of secret agent & spy genre shows (Bond Films influence). This period had, The Man From Uncle, I Spy, Mission Impossible, Get Smart, etc., etc, that all featured wild gadgets and the like. It also had a great spy western The Wild Wild West. I watch the WWW with a different head than I do AFFOD, for WWW I suspend disbelief and enjoy the antics of Jim West and costumes of Artemus Gordon, but I don't give it the same weight that I do Leone.  I feel the same way about Sabata, and Django, they belong to that WWW sub genre. Django definitely had ist own style, and bravado.

Navajo Joe has the historical background story all screwed up so it still leans more towards the crap list



Title: Re:Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Nobody on November 07, 2004, 03:20:55 PM
I guess you're right. I was thinking more in terms of a general SW list. Haven't seen Navajo Joe, is it worth checking out?


Title: Re:Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on November 07, 2004, 08:01:10 PM
Rent it and watch Navajo Joe but don't spend any money to buy it, its only worth checking out out of curiosity.

It has Navajo's who live in hogans living in tipis, it has Bert Reynolds in a buckskin outfit the top half of which is cut  in a low "U" like a tuxedo vest. Aldo Sambrel is the chief baddie scalp hunter but the sclaps he takes look like wigs. There is an indian burial ground set right near a very obvious man made tunnel.

Its like somebody took plot elements from bad TV shows and strung them all together into a story, it even has a trained horse a la Roy Rodgers / Gene Autry that Bert uses for various tricks.  Its pretty laughable.

But if you know nothing about the real West you'd probably find it very entertaining, Watch "Ulzana's Raid" in contrast.


Title: Re:Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: noodles_leone on November 08, 2004, 02:26:27 AM
you're right cigar joe, i have never seen the 2 zapata westerns shot by corbucci... i'll try to see them.
And you're right too when you say that Django has to be seen, at least with an historical interest. Telling the truth, this is the only thing that made me stay and whatch it until the end :)
But i'm not sure that people who love leone will like it: one of the major interests of leone's work is the camera work... django's camerawork makes me think more to a tv show than to a leone movie  :-\


Title: Re:Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: redyred on November 08, 2004, 04:22:40 AM
I don't know, Django was the first non-Leone SW I saw and I haven't look back since. In actual fact I hunted it down not because I was into Leone, but because a clip of it is used in Perry Henzell's The Harder they Come (which by the way is film I would definately recommend to any Leone fan, above other SWs). Corbucci might not have honed his talents at this point, but he wasn't stupid - I think there is something deliberate in its over-the-topness. Obviously the dubbing is terrible, which might make it less enjoyable to watch, but doesn't make it a bad film in itself.


Title: Re:Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on November 08, 2004, 04:50:30 AM
The Harder They Come is great.

I guess on SW's its a matter of individual tastes, and a matter of criteria, on what you are judging.


Title: Re:Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Two Kinds of ... on November 08, 2004, 11:12:12 AM
I don't know, Django was the first non-Leone SW I saw and I haven't look back since. In actual fact I hunted it down not because I was into Leone, but because a clip of it is used in Perry Henzell's The Harder they Come (which by the way is film I would definately recommend to any Leone fan, above other SWs). Corbucci might not have honed his talents at this point, but he wasn't stupid - I think there is something deliberate in its over-the-topness. Obviously the dubbing is terrible, which might make it less enjoyable to watch, but doesn't make it a bad film in itself.
Bingo, the dubbing is horrible, and Corbucci is no Leone with the Camera, but the story, the characters and the gags all work.


Title: Re:Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on December 01, 2004, 04:09:24 PM
Ok now I'm just tweaking & updating the original thread since I have seen Day Of Anger.

I've had mixed results with following Howard Hughes "Pocket Essentials Spaghetti Westerns" trying to expand my collection of good SW's, what we really need is a "Leone Lovers Guide to Spaghetti Westerns. Hughes is giving a more historical perspective covering the essential SW's of the genre, films that set precedents, benchmarks, big euro/italo box office and not necessarily something we Leone weaned fans would generaly like.

If I had to compile a list of the Leone Lover's Guide to SW DVD's the below list would be my current "A" list with the most similar in style and quality to Leone at the top and farther down the more they stray, not necessarily in quality but in style. Some touchstones of my criteria would be story, entertainment, humor, cinematography, quality, look, actors, sets, score. This list only includes the the DVD's or VHS tapes of Spaghetti Westerns I've seen to date and I've included the Zapata Westerns also.

Note: A lot of the "A" list features Morricone scores, but beware of Keoma, this Lenoard Cohen/Tiny Tim sounding score is a turn off to some, watch it with the sound off, and subtitles in English on, lol. Supposedly Castellari edited this film with Bod Dylan and Lenoard Cohen playing he was wanting to quote Peckinpaw's "Pat Garret & Billy The Kid" and "McCabe & Mrs. Miller".

 Another warning, some of your favorite Leone actors are dubbed by different voice actors, which is kind of hard to take at times, this has been commented on espcially for Gian Maria Volonte in "A Bullet for the General" and "Face to Face", also some of the full lenght uncut films were never dubbed in English so in these segments the actors speak Italian with English subtitles, a small price to pay to see a directors full cut.

The one truely great experience you'll get in watching some of these films is that very same one you felt seeing Leone's westerns for the first time, especially if you originally saw them in the theater, they really bring you back to that initial "WOW" partly because they are so hauntingly familiar and yet different almost like meeting distant relatives that you instantly regognize  as kin.  They look and feel almost like Leone films though they are not. The Almeria scenery and that different style stands out in stark contrast from most of the post SW modern western films we see today. For those of you who were around when the first Leone SW's  came out on thebig screen seeing some of these will be like going back in time.  

Another point to ponder, with Corbucci"s westerns is the varying range in quality and production values. Great Silence is way better than Django and The Mercenary & Companeros are light years better that TGS.

The "A" list so far:

The Big Gundown
The Mercenary
Companero's
Death Rides A Horse
Day Of Anger
Run Man Run
Face To Face
The Great Silence
Keoma
A Bullet For The General

The "B" List (worthy efforts):

A Man Called Sledge
A Minute To Pray A Second to Die

The not sure if they are classified as Spaghetti Westerns but likely Euro Westerns shot in Almeria List:

Red Sun
Shalako
100 Rifles

More to come here.

To Stay away from List:

El Condor
Django
Navajo Joe
Captain Apache (the worst so far)
A Bullet For Sandoval (VHS)

*This list could probably go up into the 100's but I'm not going to be inclined to watching many off the wall SW's, if you drop in on the SW's board you'll hear about a lot of obscure titles. My local rental store has  a VHS of LVC's "Bad Man's River", I'll probably break down and rent it soon and add it hear.

Again Feel free to add or comment.




Title: Re:Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Belkin on December 01, 2004, 04:45:12 PM
BAD MAN'S RIVER.....to be avoided, Cigar Joe. Think of a b-movie version of CRAPTAIN.....sorry, CAPTAIN APACHE. It's downhill after that. Life is just tooo damm short! :o


Title: Re:Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on December 01, 2004, 05:00:30 PM
What no vocals by the Man with the Gunsight Eyes? :o


Title: Re:Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on December 19, 2004, 05:49:50 AM
My continnuing on running list for Leone Lover's.

 A new update since I've seen "Mannaja a man called Blade"

The "A" list so far:

The Big Gundown
The Mercenary
Companero's
Death Rides A Horse
Day Of Anger
Run Man Run
Face To Face
The Great Silence
Keoma
A Bullet For The General

The "B" List (worthy efforts):

A Man Called Sledge
A Minute To Pray A Second to Die
Mannaja A Man Called Blade

The not sure if they are classified as Spaghetti Westerns but likely Euro Westerns shot in Almeria List:

Red Sun
Shalako
100 Rifles

More to come here.

To Stay away from List:

El Condor
Django
Navajo Joe
Captain Apache (the worst so far)
A Bullet For Sandoval (VHS)

*This list could probably go up into the 100's but I'm not going to be inclined to watching many off the wall SW's, if you drop in on the SW's board you'll hear about a lot of obscure titles. My local rental store has  a VHS of LVC's "Bad Man's River", I'll probably break down and rent it soon and add it hear.

Again Feel free to add or comment.



Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on December 31, 2004, 06:42:20 AM
My continnuing on running list for Leone Lover''s.

A new update since I''ve seen "Tepepa" (Blood & Guns)
The "A" list so far:

The Big Gundown
The Mercenary
Companero''s
Death Rides A Horse
Day Of Anger
Run Man Run
Face To Face
The Great Silence
Keoma
Tepepa
A Bullet For The General

The "B" List (worthy efforts):

A Man Called Sledge
A Minute To Pray A Second to Die
Mannaja A Man Called Blade

The not sure if they are classified as Spaghetti Westerns but likely Euro Westerns shot in Almeria List:

Red Sun
Shalako
100 Rifles

More to come here.

To Stay away from List:

El Condor
Django
Navajo Joe
Captain Apache (the worst so far)
A Bullet For Sandoval (VHS)

*This list could probably go up into the 100''s but I''m not going to be inclined to watching many off the wall SW''s, if you drop in on the SW''s board you''ll hear about a lot of obscure titles. My local rental store has  a VHS of LVC''s "Bad Man''s River", I''ll probably break down and rent it soon and add it hear.

Again Feel free to add or comment.



Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on February 03, 2005, 04:52:28 AM
My continnuing updates on the Spaghetti Western list for Leone Lover''s. I've tweeked the list a bit putting Run Man Run last. I suppose this can go on as I watch and re-watch the collection, lol.

I also re-watched "A Bullet For The General" (1967)again and was impressed anew. This Damiani film is very well made and deserves all the kudo's it gets. The train ambush sequences at the beginning are top notch. You really get the feeling of helplessness since the train is stopped in a steep railroad cut and they (in the train) can't see their attackers as they look up.

It has other details that pop out for instance when they finally aquire a machine gun that uses 25 shot horizontal clips they show Volonte actually preparing the clip by dripping oil over it before he inserts it into the gun, looks like the real McCoy and that they are firing live rounds. Kinsky could have been used more, but its not much to quibble about.

Once you get around hearing Volonte and Kinsky with different dubbers this film grows on you.

Why Damiani didn't make another western immediatly after is perplexing, he did put an entry into the comedy phase in 1975 called a "A Genius, Two Partners, and a Dupe". that I may just have to check out based on ABFTG.

A new updates since I''ve seen "Cemetery Without Crosses" and "Blindman".

The "A" list so far in decending order:

The Big Gundown
The Mercenary
Companero''s
Death Rides A Horse
Day Of Anger
A Bullet For The General
Face To Face
The Great Silence
Keoma
Tepepa
Blindman
Run Man Run

The "B" List (worthy efforts):

A Man Called Sledge
A Minute To Pray A Second to Die
Mannaja A Man Called Blade
Cemetery Without Crosses.

The not sure if they are classified as Spaghetti Westerns but likely Euro Westerns shot in Almeria List:

Red Sun
Shalako
100 Rifles

More to come here.

To Stay away from List:

El Condor
Django
Navajo Joe
Captain Apache (the worst so far)
A Bullet For Sandoval (VHS)

*This list could probably go up into the 100''s but I''m not going to be inclined to watching many off the wall SW''s, if you drop in on the SW''s board you''ll hear about a lot of obscure titles. My local rental store has  a VHS of LVC''s "Bad Man''s River", I''ll probably break down and rent it soon and add it hear.

Again Feel free to add or comment.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Danny on February 03, 2005, 07:15:47 AM
Didn't see the movie yet, but I like the song:  Navajo Joe ... ahhha ahhaaaaa Navajo Joe ahhaaaaaaaa  ;D


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: General Sibley on February 03, 2005, 10:18:07 AM
The "A" list so far in decending order:

The Big Gundown
The Mercenary
Companero''s
Death Rides A Horse
Day Of Anger
A Bullet For The General
Face To Face
The Great Silence
Keoma
Tepepa
Blindman
Run Man Run

The "B" List (worthy efforts):

A Man Called Sledge
A Minute To Pray A Second to Die
Mannaja A Man Called Blade
Cemetery Without Crosses.

The not sure if they are classified as Spaghetti Westerns but likely Euro Westerns shot in Almeria List:

Red Sun
Shalako
100 Rifles

More to come here.

To Stay away from List:

El Condor
Django
Navajo Joe
Captain Apache (the worst so far)
A Bullet For Sandoval (VHS)

Again Feel free to add or comment.


CJ, that's an awfully heavy dosage of spags  :o  Do you notice your brains turning into syrup yet?


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on February 03, 2005, 03:44:33 PM
About "Navajo Joe", Danny, if you are at all familiar with the various Native American cultures and artifacts you'll know right away that Corbucci didn't know squat, his set designer and costumer didn't know squat, and Bert Reynolds who should have known better didn't know squat. If Bert had taken Corbucci aside like Clint did supposedly with Leone and exorcised pages of script and had put a little reality input in the project, maybe it would be more watchable.

I supposed to be fair, the original intended audience didn't know squat either, lol.


General, as far as brains turning to syrup, lol, not yet, there are some great details that you miss if you don't keep re-viewing these films.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Danny on February 04, 2005, 12:27:45 AM
Again Joe, I did'n't see the film yet, it's only the song.
When I hear it in the morning it's in my head the whole day. ;)


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on February 04, 2005, 04:10:39 AM
Quote
Again Joe, I did'n't see the film yet, it's only the song.
When I hear it in the morning it's in my head the whole day.


That brings up an interesting subject, I wonder especially those among us who are the real Ennio Morricone philes which SW's had really great scores but were lousy films. Conversly there are probably a few great SW's that had lousy or forgettable scores (ie. A Man Called Sledge).


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: KERMIT on February 04, 2005, 04:34:19 AM


That brings up an interesting subject, I wonder especially those among us who are the real Ennio Morricone philes which SW's had really great scores but were lousy films. Conversly there are probably a few great SW's that had lousy or forgettable scores (ie. A Man Called Sledge).
to name a few:

a gringo like me
seven guns for the mcgregors
gun's don't argue
the indians
lonesome billy
ringo rides again

actually i don't dislike them , i just get the feeling they are either filler, or pre trilogy before the assosiation between morricone & leone got hot and heavy. we must remember leone would send morricone back to rewrite several scores untill leone could imagine the scene presented to him so shooting could start.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Marco Leone on March 04, 2005, 03:02:29 PM
Personally, I love Corbucci's The Hellbenders - that would be in my top 5.  On the Django debate - personally I think it is a brilliant film, and very nearly up there with Leone's best work.  Great Silence also.  Other films on that A-list, would have to include The Return of Ringo, Keoma and The Big Gundown.

I'm not so keen on the more comedy SWs that spawned from the evil "Trinity" films.  But there are many superb SWs out there - even some of the lesser known ones (check out Johnny Yuma for instance).


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on March 04, 2005, 04:20:37 PM
Yea, I want to check out Hellbenders, The Hills Run Red, Price of Power, and some of the Sartana's and others in the comming months. The screen captures on Shobarys site look good.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on June 26, 2005, 06:00:27 AM
Added Sartana Your Angel of Death.

I've  had mixed results with following Howard Hughes "Pocket Essentials Spaghetti Westerns" trying to expand my collection of good SW's, what we really need is a "Leone Lovers Guide to Spaghetti Westerns. Hughes is giving a more historical perspective covering the essential SW's of the genre, films that set precedents, benchmarks, big euro/italo box office and not necessarily something we Leone weaned fans would generaly like. I've also with this Sartana film now have reservations about Shobary's list of reviews.

My Criteria:

If I had to compile a list of the Leone Lover's Guide to SW DVD's the below list would be my current "A" list with the most similar in style and quality to Leone at the top and farther down the more they stray, not necessarily in quality but in style. Some touchstones of my criteria would be story, entertainment, humor, cinematography, quality, look, actors, sets, score. This list only includes the the DVD's or VHS tapes of Spaghetti Westerns I've seen to date and I've included the Zapata Westerns also.

Note: A lot of the "A" list features Morricone scores, but beware of Keoma, this Lenoard Cohen/Tiny Tim sounding score is a turn off to some, watch it with the sound off, and subtitles in English on, lol. Supposedly Castellari edited this film with Bod Dylan and Lenoard Cohen playing he was wanting to quote Peckinpaw's "Pat Garret & Billy The Kid" and "McCabe & Mrs. Miller".

 Another warning, some of your favorite Leone actors are dubbed by different voice actors, which is kind of hard to take at times, this has been commented on espcially for Gian Maria Volonte in "A Bullet for the General" and "Face to Face", also some of the full lenght uncut films were never dubbed in English so in these segments the actors speak Italian with English subtitles, a small price to pay to see a directors full cut.

The one truely great experience you'll get in watching some of these films is that very same one you felt seeing Leone's westerns for the first time, especially if you originally saw them in the theater, they really bring you back to that initial "WOW" partly because they are so hauntingly familiar and yet different almost like meeting distant relatives that you instantly regognize  as kin.  They look and feel almost like Leone films though they are not. The Almeria scenery and that different style stands out in stark contrast from most of the post SW modern western films we see today. For those of you who were around when the first Leone SW's  came out on thebig screen seeing some of these will be like going back in time.   

Another point to ponder, with Corbucci"s westerns is the varying range in quality and production values. Great Silence is way better than Django and The Mercenary & Companeros are light years better that TGS.

The "A" list so far:

The Big Gundown
The Mercenary
Companero's
Death Rides A Horse
Day Of Anger
Run Man Run
Face To Face
The Great Silence
Keoma
A Bullet For The General

The "B" List (worthy efforts):

A Man Called Sledge
A Minute To Pray A Second to Die

The not sure if they are classified as Spaghetti Westerns but likely Euro Westerns shot in Almeria List:

Red Sun
Shalako
100 Rifles

More to come here.

To Stay away from List:

El Condor
Django
Navajo Joe
Captain Apache (the worst so far)
A Bullet For Sandoval (VHS)
Sartana Your Angel of Death

*This list could probably go up into the 100's but I'm not going to be inclined to watching many off the wall SW's, if you drop in on the SW's board you'll hear about a lot of obscure titles. My local rental store has  a VHS of LVC's "Bad Man's River", I'll probably break down and rent it soon and add it here.

Again Feel free to add or comment.




Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on June 29, 2005, 06:57:23 PM
Added Price of Power & My Name is Nobody.

I've  had mixed results with following Howard Hughes "Pocket Essentials Spaghetti Westerns" trying to expand my collection of good SW's, what we really need is a "Leone Lovers Guide to Spaghetti Westerns. Hughes is giving a more historical perspective covering the essential SW's of the genre, films that set precedents, benchmarks, big euro/italo box office and not necessarily something we US/North American based Leone weaned fans would generaly like.

My Criteria:

If I had to compile a list of the Leone Lover's Guide to SW DVD's the below list would be my current "A" list with the most similar in style and quality to Leone at the top and farther down the more they stray, not necessarily in quality but in style. Some touchstones of my criteria would be story, entertainment, humor, cinematography, quality, look, actors, sets, score. This list only includes the the DVD's or VHS tapes of Spaghetti Westerns I've seen to date and I've included the Zapata Westerns also.

Note: A lot of the "A" list features Morricone scores, but beware of Keoma, this Lenoard Cohen/Tiny Tim sounding score is a turn off to some, watch it with the sound off, and subtitles in English on, lol. Supposedly Castellari edited this film with Bod Dylan and Lenoard Cohen playing he was wanting to quote Peckinpaw's "Pat Garret & Billy The Kid" and "McCabe & Mrs. Miller".

Another warning, some of your favorite Leone actors are dubbed by different voice actors, which is kind of hard to take at times, this has been commented on espcially for Gian Maria Volonte in "A Bullet for the General" and "Face to Face", also some of the full lenght uncut films were never dubbed in English so in these segments the actors speak Italian with English subtitles, a small price to pay to see a directors full cut.

The one truely great experience you'll get in watching some of these films is that very same one you felt seeing Leone's westerns for the first time, especially if you originally saw them in the theater, they really bring you back to that initial "WOW" partly because they are so hauntingly familiar and yet different almost like meeting distant relatives that you instantly regognize  as kin.  They look and feel almost like Leone films though they are not. The Almeria scenery and that different style stands out in stark contrast from most of the post SW modern western films we see today. For those of you who were around when the first Leone SW's  came out on thebig screen seeing some of these will be like going back in time.   

Another point to ponder, with Corbucci"s westerns is the varying range in quality and production values. Great Silence is way better than Django and The Mercenary & Companeros are light years better than TGS.

The "A" list so far:

The Big Gundown
The Mercenary
Companero's
Death Rides A Horse
Day Of Anger
Run Man Run
Face To Face
The Great Silence
Keoma
A Bullet For The General

The "B" List (worthy efforts):

A Man Called Sledge
A Minute To Pray A Second to Die
The Price of Power

The not sure if they are classified as Spaghetti Westerns but likely Euro Westerns shot in Almeria List:

Red Sun
Shalako
100 Rifles

More to come here.

Comedy SW's
My Name is Nobody

To Stay away from List:

El Condor
Django
Navajo Joe
Captain Apache (the worst so far)
A Bullet For Sandoval (VHS)
Sartana Your Angel of Death

*This list could probably go up into the 100's but I'm not going to be inclined to watching many off the wall SW's, if you drop in on the SW's board you'll hear about a lot of obscure titles. My local rental store has  a VHS of LVC's "Bad Man's River", I'll probably break down and rent it soon and add it here.

Again Feel free to add or comment.



Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Tiger on July 13, 2005, 02:17:49 AM
Cigar joe, just browsing through the post, I noticed some entries mentioned on your Feb 03 update are gone now. Did you deliberatly scrap them or did you accidentily restart from an old version of the list ?

Tiger


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on July 13, 2005, 04:57:11 AM
Tiger, yea I did restart, I didn't scap any what dropped out on the list ::)


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Groggy on July 13, 2005, 06:19:22 AM
Tiger, yea I did restart, I didn't scap any what dropped out on the list ::)

"Tepepa" and "Mannaja" for two.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on July 13, 2005, 04:30:41 PM
Ok Thanks Groggy.

They should be on it.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 14, 2005, 04:25:47 AM
Red Sun,Shalako,100 Rifles and El Condor need to be dropped from the list as although some were filmed in Spain they are  big budgetted American financed productions with American directors.However much influenced by the spaghetti's , they should not be mistaken as Italian westerns.
Off the top of my head from the 80+ spaghettis i have so far i would  consider for the "A" list:-
BANDIDOS
FORGOTTEN PISTOLERO
FIVE MAN ARMY
I WANT HIM DEAD
LONG LIVE YOUR DEATH
HILLS RUN RED
SABATA
ADIOS SABATA
LONG LIVE YOUR DEATH
SARTANA
LIGHT THE FUSE SARTANAS COMING
REQUIESCANT
MAN,PRIDE AND VENGEANCE


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on July 14, 2005, 05:21:51 AM
Ok since I screwed things up a bit I'll re-list scroll down to skip the intro.

I've  had mixed results with following Howard Hughes "Pocket Essentials Spaghetti Westerns" , the Spaghetti Western Web Board, and Shobary's excellent web site trying to expand my collection of good SW's, what we really need is a "Leone Lovers Guide to Spaghetti Westerns.

Hughes is giving a more historical perspective covering the essential SW's of the genre, films that set precedents, benchmarks, big euro/italo box office and not necessarily something we US/North American-Hollywood and 50's-60's TV western watchers based Leone weaned fans would generaly like.

The Spaghetti Western Web Board tends to be more of a mid-nightmovie fan base, camp loving, bad dubbing forgiving, crowd for the most part that loves the Genre.

Shobary's has excellent screen grabs and a rating system that on the 100% to 97% section I wholly agree with (the only one of which I've not seen is "Light the Fuse Sartanna is Comming") After that I've rated some films much higher some films much lower. Shobary is also an excellent jumping off point for exploration.

My Criteria:

If I had to compile a list of the Leone Lover's Guide to SW DVD's the below list would be my current "A" list with the most similar in style and quality to Leone at the top and farther down the more they stray, not necessarily in quality but in style. Some touchstones of my criteria would be story, entertainment, humor, cinematography, historical plausibility, quality, look, actors, sets, score. This list only includes the the DVD's or VHS tapes of Spaghetti Westerns I've seen to date and I've included the Zapata Westerns also.

Note: A lot of the "A" list features Morricone scores, but beware of Keoma, this Lenoard Cohen/Tiny Tim sounding score is a turn off to some, watch it with the sound off, and subtitles in English on, lol. Supposedly Castellari edited this film with Bod Dylan and Lenoard Cohen playing he was wanting to quote Peckinpaw's "Pat Garret & Billy The Kid" and "McCabe & Mrs. Miller".

Another warning, some of your favorite Leone actors are dubbed by different voice actors, which is kind of hard to take at times, this has been commented on espcially for Gian Maria Volonte in "A Bullet for the General" and "Face to Face", also some of the full lenght uncut films were never dubbed in English so in these segments the actors speak Italian with English subtitles, a small price to pay to see a directors full cut.

The one truely great experience you'll get in watching some of these films is that very same one you felt seeing Leone's westerns for the first time, especially if you originally saw them in the theater, they really bring you back to that initial "WOW" partly because they are so hauntingly familiar and yet different almost like meeting distant relatives that you instantly regognize  as kin.  They look and feel almost like Leone films though they are not. The Almeria scenery and that different style stands out in stark contrast from most of the post SW modern western films we see today. For those of you who were around when the first Leone SW's  came out on thebig screen seeing some of these will be like going back in time.   

Another point to ponder, with Corbucci"s westerns is the varying range in quality and production values. Great Silence is way better than Django and The Mercenary & Companeros are light years better than TGS.

The "A" list so far:

The Big Gundown
The Mercenary
Companero's
Death Rides A Horse
Day Of Anger
Run Man Run
Face To Face
The Great Silence
Keoma
A Bullet For The General
Tepeppa

The "B" List (worthy efforts):

A Man Called Sledge
A Minute To Pray A Second to Die
The Price of Power
Mannaja A Man Called Blade

The not sure if they are classified as Spaghetti Westerns as banjo remarks but likely Euro Westerns or clone influenced American financed shot partly in Almeria List:

Red Sun
Shalako
100 Rifles

More to come here.

A new addition, modern second wave Euro Western that since I was not familiar with the Blueberry comics , therefore not dissapointed at the stray from the material, I liked.

Renegade (Blueberry)

Comedy SW's

My Name is Nobody

Wild Wild West  Spaghetti Westerns similar to the old TV show

Sabatta

To Stay away from List:

El Condor
Django
Navajo Joe
Captain Apache (the worst so far)
A Bullet For Sandoval (VHS)
Sartana Your Angel of Death

*This list could probably go up into the 100's but I'm not going to be inclined to watching many off the wall SW's, if you drop in on the SW's board you'll hear about a lot of obscure titles. My local rental store has  a VHS of LVC's "Bad Man's River", I'll probably break down and rent it soon and add it here.

banjo you have an excellent list on the previous post of films to still check out of those I have seen Sabatta and added a catagory above for that one.

I'll eventually make a seperate Zapatta Western list but I've got to compile some viewing of early AW's to get a handel on it.

Again thanks and feel free to add or comment.



Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: redyred on July 14, 2005, 05:23:29 AM
To Stay away from List:

El Condor
Django
Navajo Joe
Captain Apache (the worst so far)
A Bullet For Sandoval (VHS)
Sartana Your Angel of Death

What's wrong with Angel of Death? I mean it's by no means a classic but I'd say it was definately worthy of the B-list.

Quote from: banjo
MAN,PRIDE AND VENGEANCE

Does that really count? Italian, and definately in the SW style, but it's set in Spain so not technically a western.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: The Smoker on July 14, 2005, 07:59:03 AM
Red Sun,Shalako,100 Rifles and El Condor need to be dropped from the list as although some were filmed in Spain they are  big budgetted American financed productions with American directors.

100 Rifles and El Condor both Jim Brown vehicles. Barquero (1970,Warren Oates/Cleef) being another big  US western in spain.
But..
Red Sun was (Italian/Spanish/French money) Brit director Terence Young (Original Bond film director)
Shalako (Italian/Germany/UK) both have the ingredients for Euro Westerns filmed in spain.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 14, 2005, 09:42:20 AM
Yes,but do you really think that a co-international production directed by a British James Bond director(sorry i didn't check all my facts! ) qualifies as an Italian western? Likewise it is big news to me that among many other great things Sean Connery is now a spaghetti western star,not to mention Ursula Andress!!!.I have yet to see any literature films that refers to these films as being Italian(spaghetti) westerns.Thinking about it i seem to remember Shalako being shown on television recentlly and it was described in a TV guide as being the best British western ever made!!!


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 15, 2005, 01:14:14 AM
Please ignore the Ursula Andress comment ,i had James Bond films too much on the brain!!! I was thinking about Bridget Bardot who of course was in Viva Maria.
I think perhaps to avoid any grey areas as to what what constitutes a spaghetti western,the director should at least be Italian regardless of the film locations. Perhaps the term "spaghetti" should be dropped(all Italians hate this term afterall) and the term Italian western should only be used to avoid any ambiguity.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on July 15, 2005, 04:44:02 AM
What about the term "Euro Western".


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 15, 2005, 05:32:48 AM
The term "euro"  is obviously fine to use for westerns made outside of the Italian contingent.For example the Harald Reinl German made Winnetou film series are euro westerns which led onto the Italian westerns but no-one in their right mind would call them spaghetti's.Anyhow i thought this  thread  is all about "spaghetti"(Italian) westerns other than Leones..


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on July 16, 2005, 04:46:06 AM
I guess I was using the term "Spaghetti" loosely  ;D, technically you are right.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Marco Leone on July 16, 2005, 01:02:59 PM
And its something many of us are guilty of, if guilty is the right word!

Technically, I guess Euro-western would be the correct phrase, but I think the term Spaghetti tends to get used by the mass.  I bet "Spaghetti Western" is typed far more often into search engines!


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 17, 2005, 03:45:31 AM
Is it really worth the bother to include these non-Italian
euro-westerns anyway?From the ones i've seen or read about,if they are trying to emulate the genuine article,then they show a complete lack of understanding without any depth or stlye, hollywood actors more interested in their wallets and packed full of violence/explosions for the sake of it.
Cigar Joe has listed some euro-westerns separately(apart from El Condor) but are they "A"list,"B"list or "stay away from"?.Rather than an "stay away from" list wouldn't it be much much better to call it a "C" list because like all collectors i would not neglect a chance to videotape any of these films?.Cigar Joe doesn't rate Django(surely "A" list) but advising people to avoid this is almost akin to warding them off from the equally groundbreaking Fistful of Dollars.Just think about all the spin-offs it spawned and does it really deserve to be in the same company as Bad Mans River etc?.
      Finally personally i would promote Bullet for  Sandoval and the 2nd Sartana film to the "B" list,and add Gods Gun and Can Be Done,Amigo to the "C" list.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on July 17, 2005, 05:26:18 AM
banjo,  my criteria is strictly from a Leone Lover's   standpoint and from the supposition that the recommendations that I give will inspire somebody to pay good money to buy a DVD. I'm not going to give my thumb's up to lesser efforts.

Thats why I put Django where I did, if you take somebody with my tastes and high rating of Leone's films and talked me into buying Django as the first example of a Corbucci film, I'd honestly be reluctant to take any further SW recommendations or other Corbucci films seriously or be willing to shell out more money.

Django with its bad dubbing, goofy red hood & bandanna wearing bad guys, saw dust quicksand pit, cheap prop department machine gun which belts stay stationary when its fired, just isn't in the same league with an equally low budget AFOD.

Now if all were available to rent it may be a different list.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 17, 2005, 09:47:48 AM
Cigar Joe,i started off like many others i suspect with the Dollar films.I also have very selective tastes and i like to do some research before buying my spaghetti western dvd/videos.I respect your opinion about Django but i disagree with you about this from a Leone Lovers standpoint as you put it.On my first  viewing i experienced that "wow" factor you describe and i still do! It has to be said that you are very much in the minority and you must have seen the non-Leone spaghetti opinion poll on the Spaghetti Western Web Board which clocks Django at third only behind the Big Gundown and the Great Silence.Also no lesser afficionado than Christopher Frayling rates Django at number 7 in his top 10 spaghetti's(see Hughes latest book).
          Therefore i believe it would be doing  Sergio Corbucci and dvd buyers  a huge disservice to put anyone off from purchasing this masterpiece.I certainly think this film is closer in style to Leone than Corbucci's later revolution based films(Leone hated all the the politics ,sloganeering and romanticising of  these films).Sergio Sollima also went out of his way to make a different kind of western because he didn't like the cynism of Leone's Dollars movies and prefered his characters to be more talkative , show some humanity and his films tended to be more thought provoking than Leones.I'd  say the only films which could be mistaken for Leone from your  excellent "A" list are Death Rides a Horse,Day of Anger and possibly the Big Gundown.
         I didn't intend to make such a big deal about this but i think it would fairer to all to leave Django of your lists altogether rather than telling people to avoid it.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: spag fan on July 17, 2005, 10:05:47 AM
I like Leone, and Django. I'll admit, the dubbing is pretty poor,  but the movie's still a pretty wild ride. With the original italian, it's even better. I actually would enjoy watching this one again more than FOD.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on July 17, 2005, 10:17:49 AM
Hey, everyone has there own tastes.....

Django's worth a watch for curiosity sake, I'd recommed rent first then make up your own mind.

banjo , spag fan, make your own list  :).


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 18, 2005, 02:18:38 AM
In Howard Hughes new book "Once Upon a Time in the Italian West" is a section which lists the favourite top 10 Italian westerns for each of  four spaghetti experts-Christopher Frayling(top Leone buff!),Alex Cox(director,writer,broadcaster),Tom Betts(editor of Westerns All'Italiana fanzine and Hughes himself.To avoid breaching any copyright i cannot reproduce these individual lists,but for the benefit of Leone loving potential dvd buyers i have listed below all non-Leone films included ,and in brackets i have shown how many of the 4 afficianado's included each film in their own list.
GREAT SILENCE(4 INCLUSIONS)
BIG GUNDOWN(4)
DJANGO(3)
BULLET FOR THE GENERAL(2)
A PROFESSIONAL GUN(2)
DJANGO KILL(2)
MY NAME IS NOBODY(1)
HELLBENDERS(1)
REQUIESCANT(1)
DEATH RIDES A HORSE(1)
BANDIDOS(1)
FORGOTTEN PISTOLERO(1)
I WANT HIM DEAD(1)
I AM SARTANA YOUR ANGEL OF DEATH(1)
SABATA(1)
NAVAJO JOE(1)
THEY CALL ME TRINITY(1)
HILLS RUN RED(1)
       
   I have managed to aquire all of these apart from Django Kill(Marco Leone if you are reading this,i've seen your review but can you tell me if there is any evidence of animal cruelty i.e.regarding horses being macheted or blown upas mentioned by Hughes?) and have thoroughly enjoyed each one which i consider top notch and money well spent!


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Marco Leone on July 18, 2005, 01:30:59 PM
   I have managed to aquire all of these apart from Django Kill(Marco Leone if you are reading this,i've seen your review but can you tell me if there is any evidence of animal cruelty i.e.regarding horses being macheted or blown upas mentioned by Hughes?) and have thoroughly enjoyed each one which i consider top notch and money well spent!

Hi Banjo.  There is certainly a sequence where a horse is packed with explosives, and blows up a band of bandits etc.  It didn't occur to me that there may have been actaul cruelty to animals, but i guess in those days there were not the same sort of regulations as we have now, so it is quite possible.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 19, 2005, 04:34:07 AM
Thanks Marco,i'm not particularly sensitive to this myself but my wife(spaghetti fan also)  is and she actually thinks the SE Fistful of Dynamite is better for the horsefall cuts!Perhaps i should get Django Kill and watch it by myself!
       Derringdo,i agree with the concept of Cigar Joes listings.The "A" list contains a sizeable chunk of the essential Italian westerns and i have also found his many film reviews and other posts very useful and informative.CJ however does leave an open invitation to comment or add to which i have responded to in a (i hope)constructive way,because i feel the listing is  flawed in that it includes (inferior) non-Italian Euro westerns at the expense of Corbucci's widely rated early efforts among others.It isn't  even clear if any of these fake spaghettis have that much sought after"wow" factor etc provided by the "A" list films.
         I honestly believe from experience that for Leone fans wishing to delve into further classic Italian westerns by other directors,they should buy the Hughes pocket guide(it cost me all of £1.99 from Amazon) which covers 31 spaghetti's  including all CJ's "A" list(except Run,Man,Run and Tepepa).Everything like how each films style relates to Leone and the American westerns is discussed.I don't agree with all of his opinions e.g.Hughes doesn't rate Steigers performance in DYS(what???) but like Shobary(there plenty of links here)you can learn enough about a movie to decide  whether to invest in it.So far i have aquired 26 of the 31 plus about the same number of the other spaghetti's referenced and compiled in a massive list at the back of the book,and have rarely been disappointed.
           As regards purchasing those harder to find films,Ebay rules!!!There is a never ending stream of top quality DVDr's from at least 2 or 3 UK sellers(1 from USA) and if like me you are patient you can buy literally dozens of dvds  for as little as £3/£4 each so if you get something you don't like,it's no great loss!!!
           One last word about Django(honest!).Franco Nero (who Cigar Joe  obviously has a high opinion of judging by his "A" list) must surely have a high regard for Corbucci's original classic to compell him to star the the "official" sequel 20 years later.I rest my case.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: redyred on July 19, 2005, 07:03:29 AM
Perhaps it might be best having a sort of "honourable mentions" list for the likes of Django to go in. Not as sophisticated as Leone or later Corbuccis, but still essential for any SW buff.



Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 20, 2005, 02:55:15 AM
      Hi Derringdo,i think it's great that we all have our different opinions ,afterall wouldn't this website be extremely dull if there wasn't any controversy?Simply by being into his extremely brilliant movies i think Leone lovers have the know how not to take any one persons word as gospel and will find out for themselves what they consider to be the classic spaghetti's,and there is an abundance of reviews,books and websites on the subject.
       Cigar Joe,respect to you fellow spaghetti ethusiast,and long  may you continue with your western guide.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: noodles_leone on July 20, 2005, 05:06:22 AM
I've seen django and i must admit that i've been very disapointed. I'm not a huge SW fan, but i'm a leone lover...
One of the first thing we all LOVE in leone's work is his particular attention to the form... he is one of the men who did truly understand what is actually cinema. he expressed himself only with very cinematographic means. His use of pictures and sound is perfect. And this is something which is NOT in Django (the major part of the shots look like tv shows shots).
This is why on my opinion you can't advise a leone fan to see this movie.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 20, 2005, 08:30:52 AM
      Noodles_Leone,for me one of the great things about the spaghetti western genre is that the other top directors -Corbucci,Sollima,Tessari et al made westerns very much in their own styles as did the best of the Amercan directors.Why try and reproduce a clone of someone elses work when you can  create  a portfolio of classic westerns  of your own making which is what these other directors did.
      I note you aren't a huge SW fan but i am curious to know which of the non-Leone spaghetti's you enjoy and why?


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: noodles_leone on July 20, 2005, 05:35:01 PM
I really enjoyed the great silence, even if I don't like so much the character played by Frank Wolf... watching this movie, i did not have the feeling of being watching a FOD clone, and i did not have the feeling of being watching a TV show... i like the story, i like the camerawork, i like the actors (the froggie and the others ;) ), i like the music...

I've always wanted to see Django... i had heard about this guy with his coffin which is on my mind a great great idea... this character could have made a surrealistic masterpiece... but i'm sorry i HATE the camerawork (just think to the machingun scenes), and the story is in my opinion a terrible repliqua of a vincenzoni script. I saw the movie in french; in this langage, Nero is dubbed by the guy who has the job of dubbing Clint in the dollars trilogy. Everyone who has ever heard the french version of GBU knows that this guy is a genus... but I don't know why, in Django, he did a terrible job ???. i must say that having bad dialogues does not help him...

I truly think it could have been great: i still love the idea of a guy carrying a coffin (and i like what is in the coffin;) ) and corbucci show us what he was abble to do in the great silence...


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: noodles_leone on July 20, 2005, 05:42:44 PM
"one of the great things about the spaghetti western genre is that the other top directors -Corbucci,Sollima,Tessari et al made westerns very much in their own styles as did the best of the Amercan directors"

i don't think Corbucci truly expressed his ESThETIC style in Django (whareas he did in the rgeat silence)...


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 21, 2005, 05:07:43 AM
     I'll submit that Django probably isn't the ideal Corbucci starting point with it's bad dubbing and it is less mainstream possibly than his later films, bearing in mind the film  being banned from certain countries for so long(surely one reason to own it!).It's certainly impossible to go wrong with the Great Silence,Companeros and the Mercenary but this doesn't make Django any less essential and all Corbucci's famous trademarks are present,which in this film include excessively violent sequences oozing with imagination and humour,extremely lurid coloured and mud splattered pop art set pieces with an eery Gothic horror like atmosphere.Even more so than Eastwoods character ,Nero 's attire and coffin made him the most distinct looking anti-hero and the villains are so hilariously over the top.The scene where Django mows down the red-hooded clansman needs to be seen to be believed and this is repeated by Nero in Corbucci's later films but not quite equalled .
      Like Leone was doing with FOD,Corbucci was honing his style  and  Leones perfect fusion of sound and image as Noodles_Leone described isn't  fully realised until  his 3rd and 4th western.But similar to Corbucci's first classic this does not make FOD any less desirable to the serious spaghetti western collector.In terms of sheer power,imagination,humour,pessimism and atmosphere Django is equal to any of Corbucci's later efforts.
              Does anybody feel the same about this film or is it a silent majority out there?


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: spag fan on July 21, 2005, 06:52:57 AM
I like it. It really needs to be watched with the Italian dub to be fully appreciated though. The english dubbing is truly dreadful. I appreciate the over-the-top aspect of the whole movie myself... but I really don't look to the movies for realism. I get that in real life. ;D

As for comparisons with Corbucci's later works, I prefer Comaneros, but not The Great Silence.

Django Rocks! :)


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 22, 2005, 03:33:27 AM
Revisiting this thread. I've seen enough of the other great SW's now to be able to refine a few things, So here goes. I'm going to break them down by Leone Films.

If you really like A Fistful Of Dollars (Mysterious Stranger) then you'll want to check out the following:

Django
The Great Silence
Keoma

   Above is quote from Cigar Joe  posted last November from the "best non-Leone film poll "thread and i'm now very confused about his spaghetti recommendations for Leone lovers.Will the real Cigar Joe stand up?
     Spag fan,Django really does truly rock.At present i only have  a widescreen copy on vhs.Perhaps i ought to invest in the dvd so i can enjoy this great film even more!!!


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on July 22, 2005, 04:29:38 AM
I stand by what I said (I not a raving fan of A Fistfull of Dollars either) so I put it in that lower budget catagory along with Keoma, Django, and TGS .

Best non Leone films and a list for Leone Lovers is not quite the same  ;).


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 22, 2005, 06:38:29 AM
    Cigar Joe,in that case perhaps a better title for this thread would be "Lovers of Leones  Westerns( Excluding A Fistful of Dollars) Guide To Other Spaghetti's"
    I see categories relating to Leones films in chronological order with no mention of budgets.Hopefully we are not going to see Keoma and the Great Silence relegated to the "stay away froms" !!! 


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: spag fan on July 22, 2005, 06:48:11 AM
Oh, let's give CJ a break. Without his posts, there would be little to read here to begin with. I think we've highjacked this one long enough. :)


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 22, 2005, 06:54:05 AM
   I'm sorry Cigar Joe but you must  have seen  it was too  hard for me to resist in the context of our debate and i do very much respect your contributions to this site.Enough said about Django me thinks!


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on July 22, 2005, 05:09:38 PM
No problem, Django is definitely, worth a viewing before you make your own decision, I own a copy.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 23, 2005, 01:25:14 AM
Cigar Joe rocks!!!


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on August 28, 2005, 01:24:44 PM
Well I'm beginning to go to the well to often, I'm starting to get burned on some of the SW's that have been rated highly or recommended on other sites.

Requisant is my latest disapointment and I wrote a review in another thread.

I'm a Sergio Leone Lover and of course rate Sergio's Films at the top, his are well worth your aquisition and if you are a long time member of this board you already know that.

Of the following lists  the A list contains SW's that deliver
that equal or almost up there quality. These films are worth getting and being part of your collection.

The "A" list so far in decending order (desending in quality from Leone the top four are very good):

The Big Gundown
The Mercenary
Companero''s
Death Rides A Horse
Day Of Anger
A Bullet For The General
Face To Face
The Great Silence
Keoma
Tepepa
Blindman
Run Man Run

The "B" List (worthy efforts):

A Man Called Sledge
A Minute To Pray A Second to Die
Mannaja A Man Called Blade
Cemetery Without Crosses.
Price of Power

The not sure if they are classified as Spaghetti Westerns but likely Euro Westerns shot in Almeria List:

Red Sun
Shalako
100 Rifles

More to come here.

To rent first before you buy if curious List*:

El Condor
Django
Navajo Joe
Requisant
Captain Apache (the worst so far)
A Bullet For Sandoval (VHS)
I am Sartana your Angel of Beath

*This list could probably go up into the 100''s but I''m not going to be inclined to watching many off the wall SW''s, if you drop in on the SW''s board you''ll hear about a lot of obscure titles. My local rental store has  a VHS of LVC''s "Bad Man''s River", I''ll probably break down and rent it soon and add it hear.

Again Feel free to add or comment.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Leone Admirer on August 28, 2005, 03:27:54 PM
I really, really need to see more Italian Westerns. I've loved the genre since I was a little 'un and have always been tempted by other Italian Westerns. Oh well next on my buy list  ;D


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Leone Admirer on August 29, 2005, 08:18:30 AM
right, I just bought the Anchor Bay Once Upon A Time In Italy Spaghetti Western set and am looking to buy the oop Blue Underground Spaghetti Western Collection
http://www.blue-underground.com/movie.php?movie_id=13 without any luck. Even more annoying is the fact that I saw this set in Virgin Megastore in Union Square and put it down (I wish I hadn't as it would have saved me a small fortune). Does anyone know where I can get my mitts on it or do I have to buy them seperatly? Many thanks.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on August 29, 2005, 07:12:46 PM
LA which SW's do you have?


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Leone Admirer on August 30, 2005, 01:41:21 AM
Apart from the Leone's I don't actually own any others (apart from those in the boxset and the four seperates I just bought)  :o I've seen quite a few on television over the years but it is now that I have made the decision to own a couple (well it's actually 10). These are the 10 that were in the boxset or I bought seperatly.

A Bullet for the General

Companeros

Four of the Apocalypse

Keoma

Texas Adios

Django (Despite the large criticism this film got here I though't I'd give it a go  ;) )

Django Kill

Mannaja

Run Man Run

Are their any others that I simply must own (I'm on a role, I bought 10 I'm sure another 2 or 20 will not make a difference  ;D ) Thanks


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on August 30, 2005, 04:46:29 AM
Death Rides a Horse
The Big Gundown
The Mercenary

Get these for sure;

Let us know how you feel about the ones you've watched so far.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: HEX on September 23, 2005, 09:35:35 AM
BLINDMAN
COMPANEROS
THE MERCENARY
BULLET FOR THE GENERAL
THE GREAT SILENCE
KEOMA
MANNAJA
DAY OF ANGER
ANY GUN CAN PLAY
LIGHT THE FUSE SARTANA IS COMING
SABATA
ADIOS SABATA
U DIRTY DOGS!
VIVA DJANGO
DJANGO THE BASTARD
JOHNATHAN OF THE BEARS


AND DJANGO ROCKS! VIVA FRANCO NERO!


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on September 23, 2005, 09:46:26 AM
      I haven't seen You Dirty Dogs yet but i totally concur with your brilliant list espescially the monumental Django to which i'd add  those other low budget SW classics Navajo Joe,first 3 Gianni Garko Sartana films and of course Requiescant.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Leone Admirer on September 25, 2005, 12:57:26 PM
Death Rides a Horse
The Big Gundown
The Mercenary

Get these for sure;

Let us know how you feel about the ones you've watched so far.

I've also bought DRAH and Gundown. Intend to start watching next week. Will give you the full lowdown begining in instalments. Most likely starting with Django.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on September 25, 2005, 04:01:27 PM
cool.  8)


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Tim on September 26, 2005, 09:03:58 PM
  And remember, the Sabata Trilogy is getting a R1 release in October.  Return of Sabata is a stinker but Sabata with LVC is good as is Adios, Sabata with Yul Brynner.  In both movies, Sabata even has the same sidekick.

  "You're just as big a thief as him, you son of a....I mean, I never knew your mother."


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Franks Harmonica on September 27, 2005, 03:01:31 AM
Django rules!
 Franco Nero will quietly kick your ass for even trying to dismiss the legend that he is.

By the way I just purchased "A Pistol For Ringo" and I really enjoyed the Hell out of it and should be added to your must see list
.Now  I'm looking forward to the follow up "The Return of Ringo"



Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Leone Admirer on September 29, 2005, 01:40:03 PM
Just a heads up (though you've probably seen it) due to popular demand, well only Joe but anyway  ;D, I've begun to document my experiences with the Spaghetti Western genre.

The link is;

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=2405.msg21740#msg21740

Thanks Again


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on October 20, 2005, 08:45:15 AM
UK members please note that Shalako is being shown on ITV1 at 12.55am to 2.45am on Wednesday 26th October.It will be interesting to find out your opinions about whether you feel this turkey of a fake SW(including that coolest of SW icons ERIC SYKES?!?!) deserves to be included on this Leones Lovers page, as well as being listed above those Leone Lovers essentials Django,Navajo Joe and to a slightly lesser extent Requiescant and I am Sartana Your Angel of Death


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on October 21, 2005, 04:12:18 AM
I had an idea CJ's guardian angel would intervene as per usual and i am already well aware of your opinions,thank you.
However in the circumstances,for the record,my understanding of this whole thread is to promote SW's which are most similar in style and quality to Leone's westerns which also provide that great experience we all felt after seeing Leones movies for the first time.In addition,this guide also provides a caution for other SW's that(for CJ) don't cut it, which has prompted some healthy and enjoyable debate.If everybody felt the same way about everything this would be a very dull website indeed.
By including 3 films(which i accept are loosely connected to SW's) just because they exist while stating they are neither fish or fowl serves absolutely no purpose on this guide or for Leones Lovers looking for a western as good as GBU,FAFDM etc.It would be just as useful if i blindly listed all the SW's ever made for the sake of it.
CJ has included Shalako on his guide so i have informed other UK members because it is on TV next week.As CJ has left a blank about this films merits here,i felt it would be useful for Leone Lovers if we were to get some opinions written down about Shalako,afterall CJ has left an open invitation to comment.Is that such a big deal or would you rather prefer our lips to be sealed?I last watched Shalako as a schoolboy 25 years and although i recall it being several million light years away from Leones westerns i am actually looking forward to seeing it again next week !!!
Derringdo,please make sure you get hold of the right end of the stick next time before trying to make me look like an idiot.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: HEX on October 28, 2005, 01:40:08 PM
PEACE!...peace brothers.....there is enough hate in this world......all we got to do is learn to love one another.


































 ;D


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on October 29, 2005, 06:28:34 AM
Hex,i totally agree,i don't have a problem with either Cigar Joe or Derringdo ,and i've lost count how many times i've complimented CJ on his mammouth contributions,including his guide, to this great site and i've never told anyone else here that they rock!!!
Can't see whats wrong with bringing Shalako to the fore when it comes up on the TV.....sorry i'd better not go there again, hehe.Constructive criticism isn't the same as complaining .I certainly wouldn't take the time of day to read anyones posts i thought were boring or repetitive.I'm thankful that there are some friendly folk on this site who obviously think otherwise.
Anyway i'm off to do a Euro western offshoot soon from this guide and if this proves to be a fraction as useful as CJ's i will be a happy man!!!


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on October 29, 2005, 07:34:11 AM
Everybody's entitled to there own opinons, that what makes this world go round, no?

On reflecting about this thread I think I possibly should have approached it differently, I think I expressed my criteria too narrowly and as a result raised the hackles of some SW afficianados, banjo, for one that I can think of right off hand.

I probably should have done it this way:


I rate in my opinion most of Leones Spaghetti Westerns (SW's) as superior to American Westerns (AW's). So my Leone Lover's guide should have probably included all westerns, but since a lot of the SW's are not known here in the US and to me at the time I started the thread, I just made it concerning SW's and started with Howard Hughes "Pocket Essentials" Film Guide to Spaghetti Westerns as an outline.

So I'll start a new thread also, leave this one as is and add to it as I see more SW's.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on October 29, 2005, 09:34:33 AM
Well said CJ,and i admit that i have probably been a bit too nit-picky on a couple of things.I also feel that SW's are superior to other Euro and American western and at present i would not go out of my way to buy a dvd from the non-Italian variety while there are some good SW's to get first-but i am trying to tape of the television as many spaghetti-flavoured American westerns or otherwise.I'd like to start my offshoot guide in a similar format as your SW guide but(i admit partly due to not
owning much at present!) will be hopefully borrowing from other people's opinions(including yours CJ?) to get a balanced view of each title.
Good idea about your new guide,by the way!!!


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on October 29, 2005, 05:18:37 PM
It will be interesting.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on November 27, 2005, 01:25:56 PM
Update Nov 2005

I'm a Sergio Leone Lover and of course rate Sergio's Films at the top, his are well worth your aquisition and if you are a long time member of this board you already know that.

My criteria for this list of mine are besides the obvious style, cinematography, score, actors, and story.

The following extra criterior, I attribute to my own personal passions & quircks, plausible believability (could it have actually really happened), approximate historical accuracy (the guns and trains should be close to hisorically accurate or at least look like they are, and looks as if a propmaster knew what the hell he was doing), and I guess for want of a better name geographical believability (an example of this is the perfectly fine John Wayne film True Grit, which is supposed to take place in relatively flat Oklahoma Territory but looks like its in the high Rockies.)

Now theses are personal pet pevees, for somebody who doesn't know a 1860 Remington from a 1973 Colt Peacemaker, it wouldn't be much of a factor. But glaring faux-pas in these areas just take me out of the spell of a film. A good way to explain it is its the same effect that the score of Keoma has on some members.

I suppose if I were some kind of western loving botanist just the plants of Almeria would be enough to break the magic spell, so you could same too much knowledge about a subject can tend to make you a hard taskmaster.  ;D



Of the following lists  the A list contains SW's that deliver
that equal or almost up there quality. These films are worth getting and being part of your collection.

The "A" list so far in decending order (desending in quality from Leone the top four are very good):

The Big Gundown
The Mercenary
Companero''s
Death Rides A Horse
Day Of Anger
A Bullet For The General
Face To Face
The Great Silence
Keoma
Tepepa
Blindman
Run Man Run


The "B" List (worthy efforts):

A Man Called Sledge
A Minute To Pray A Second to Die
Mannaja A Man Called Blade
Cemetery Without Crosses.
Price of Power
The Grand Duel
Four of the Apocalypse
Beyond the Law

The not sure if they are classified as Spaghetti Westerns but likely Euro Westerns shot in Almeria List:

Red Sun
Shalako
100 Rifles

More to come here.

To rent first before you buy if curious List*:

El Condor
Django
Navajo Joe
Kill & Pray
Captain Apache (the worst so far)
A Bullet For Sandoval (VHS)
I am Sartana your Angel of Death
Bad Man's River

*This list could probably go up into the 100''s but I''m not going to be inclined to watching many off the wall SW''s, if you drop in on the SW''s board you''ll hear about a lot of obscure titles. Again Feel free to add or comment.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on March 01, 2006, 06:24:43 AM
Well here it is March 2006 and just revisiting and tweeking this Leone Lovers guide to SW's

I'm a Sergio Leone Lover and of course rate Sergio's Films at the top not only of Spaghetti Westerns but pretty much all westerns, his are well worth your aquisition and if you are a long time member of this board you already know that. The only Leone film I'm lacking is again Duck You Sucker which doesn't have an R1 release as of yet.

My criteria for this list of mine are besides the obvious style, cinematography, score, actors, and story.

The following extra criterior are my personal ones, I attribute these to my own personal passions & quircks, plausible believability (could it have actually really happened), approximate historical accuracy (the guns and trains should be close to historically accurate or at least look like they are (the locomotives "dressed" to resemble late 1800's motive power, and the various sets look as if a propmaster knew what the hell he was doing), and I guess for want of a better name geographical believability (an example of this is the perfectly fine John Wayne film True Grit, which is supposed to take place in relatively flat Oklahoma Territory but looks like its in the high Rockies.)

Now theses are personal pet pevees, for somebody who doesn't know a 1860 Remington from a 1973 Colt Peacemaker, it wouldn't be much of a factor. But glaring faux-pas in these areas just take me out of the spell of a film. A good way to explain it is its the same effect that the score of Keoma has on some members. The 1970's brought an inane influx of pop tunes and flower power themes which are as bad or worse than the anthems and "Sons of The Pioneers" chorus scores.

I suppose if I were some kind of western loving botanist just the plants of Almeria would be enough to break the magic spell, so you could say too much knowledge about a subject can tend to make you a hard taskmaster. 



Of the following lists  the A list contains SW's that deliver
that equal or almost up there quality. These films are worth getting and being part of your collection.

The "A" list of "Must Haves" so far in decending order (desending in quality from Leone the top five are very good are all equal, Sollima's Big Gundown being almost a Leone clone):

The Big Gundown (great)
The Mercenary (the best)
Companero''s (great)
Death Rides A Horse (great)
A Bullet For The General (great)
Run Man Run (great)
The Great Silence (great)
Cemetery Without Crosses (good)
Keoma (good)
Tepepa (good)
Day Of Anger (flawed)
Face To Face (flawed)


The "B" List (worthy efforts):

A Man Called Sledge (good but cut)
A Minute To Pray A Second to Die (ok but cut)
Mannaja A Man Called Blade (ok)
Blindman (tongue in cheek but inpsired lunacy)

The not sure if they are classified as Spaghetti Westerns but likely Euro Westerns partially shot in Almeria List:

Villa Rides (great)
Renegade (great)
Red Sun (good)
Shalako (ok)
100 Rifles (ok)

In a class by itself but has SW influences

El Topo (good but very flawed)

To rent first before you buy if curious List*:

The Grand Duel (flawed)
Four of the Apocalypse (flawed)
El Condor (need to see again)
Django (cool parts, dopey parts, dopey dubbing)
Price of Power (flawed)
Navajo Joe (flawed)
Four of the Apocalypse (flawed)
Beyond the Law (hohum)
Kill & Pray (dopey)
Captain Apache (the worst so far)
A Bullet For Sandoval (crappy VHS need to see again)
I am Sartana your Angel of Death (too dopey for me)
Bad Man's River (horrible)


*This list could probably go up into the 100''s but I''m not going to be inclined to watching many off the wall SW''s, if you drop in on the SW''s board you''ll hear about a lot of obscure titles.

Again Feel free to add or comment.




Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on March 02, 2006, 08:49:32 PM
dd you're right fixed it  8).


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on March 30, 2006, 06:12:46 AM
Added "And God Said To Cain"

I'm a Sergio Leone Lover and of course rate Sergio's Films at the top not only of Spaghetti Westerns but pretty much all westerns, his are well worth your aquisition and if you are a long time member of this board you already know that. The only Leone film I'm lacking is again Duck You Sucker which doesn't have an R1 release as of yet.

Criteria for this list are besides the obvious, style, cinematography, score, actors, and story, the following extra criteria are my personal ones, I attribute these to my own personal passions & quircks, plausible believability (could it have actually really happened), approximate historical accuracy (the guns and trains should be close to historically accurate or at least look like they are (the locomotives "dressed" to resemble late 1800's motive power, and the various sets look as if a propmaster knew what the hell he was doing), and I guess for want of a better name geographical believability (an example of this is the perfectly fine John Wayne film True Grit, which is supposed to take place in relatively flat Oklahoma Territory but looks like its in the high Rockies.)

Now theses are personal pet pevees, for somebody who doesn't know a 1860 Remington from a 1973 Colt Peacemaker, it wouldn't be much of a factor. But glaring faux-pas in these areas just take me out of the spell of a film. A good way to explain it is its the same effect that the score of Keoma has on some members. The 1970's brought an inane influx of pop tunes and flower power themes which are as bad or worse than the anthems and "Sons of The Pioneers" chorus scores.

I suppose if I were some kind of western loving botanist just the plants of Almeria would be enough to break the magic spell, so you could say too much knowledge about a subject can tend to make you a hard taskmaster. 



Of the following lists  the A list contains SW's that deliver
that equal or almost up there quality. These films are worth getting and being part of your collection.

The "A" list of "Must Haves" so far in decending order (desending in quality from Leone the top five are very good are all equal, Sollima's Big Gundown being almost a Leone clone):

The Big Gundown (great)
The Mercenary (the best)
Companero''s (great)
Death Rides A Horse (great)
A Bullet For The General (great)
Run Man Run (great)
The Great Silence (great)
Cemetery Without Crosses (good)
Keoma (good)
Tepepa (good)
Day Of Anger (flawed)
Face To Face (flawed)


The "B" List (worthy efforts):

A Man Called Sledge (good but cut)
A Minute To Pray A Second to Die (ok but cut)
Mannaja A Man Called Blade (ok)
Blindman (tongue in cheek but inpsired lunacy)
And God Said To Cain (ok a spaghetti/suspence/gothic film that feels more like a made for TV film)

The not sure if they are classified as Spaghetti Westerns but likely Euro Westerns partially shot in Almeria List:

Villa Rides (great)
Renegade (great)
Red Sun (good)
Shalako (ok)
100 Rifles (ok)

In a class by itself but has SW influences

El Topo (good but very flawed)

To rent first before you buy if curious List*:

Man Pride Vengeance ("Carmen" Spaghetti Style)
The Grand Duel (flawed)
Four of the Apocalypse (flawed)
El Condor (need to see again)
Django (cool parts, dopey parts, dopey dubbing)
Price of Power (flawed)
Navajo Joe (flawed)
Four of the Apocalypse (flawed)
Beyond the Law (hohum)
Kill & Pray (dopey)
Captain Apache (the worst so far)
A Bullet For Sandoval (crappy VHS need to see again)
I am Sartana your Angel of Death (too dopey for me)
Bad Man's River (horrible)


*This list could probably go up into the 100''s but I''m not going to be inclined to watching many off the wall SW''s, if you drop in on the SW''s board you''ll hear about a lot of obscure titles.

Again Feel free to add or comment.



Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on March 30, 2006, 06:54:34 AM
To rent first before you buy if curious List*:

Man Pride Vengeance ("Carmen" Spaghetti Style)
I thought you liked this one CJ!
I suppose anyone considering this one should be aware that this is strictly not a western as it is set in Spain.I think Nero acting in this movie is great!


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on March 30, 2006, 05:32:58 PM
Yea I liked it, but that is why I said rent if you can since its not technically an SW.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on April 01, 2006, 02:49:03 PM
I just watched "The Specialist" (1969) Sergio Corbucci dir. and my question is Corbucci, Quein Saba?

WTF is up with the man, sombody's got to write a book researching the other top SW directors, how can somebody make "The Mercenary" then a year later make "The Specialist". This film is seriously flawed, but its well made but the effects of the out of context parts totally destroy it. Corbucci is either hitting on all cylinders or out of tune, and I can't figure out why.Of the following lists  the A list contains SW's that deliver
that equal or almost up there quality. These films are worth getting and being part of your collection.

The "A" list of "Must Haves" so far in decending order (desending in quality from Leone the top five are very good are all equal, Sollima's Big Gundown being almost a Leone clone):

The Big Gundown (great)
The Mercenary (the best)
Companero''s (great)
Death Rides A Horse (great)
A Bullet For The General (great)
Run Man Run (great)
The Great Silence (great)
Cemetery Without Crosses (good)
Keoma (good)
Tepepa (good)
Day Of Anger (flawed)
Face To Face (flawed)


The "B" List (worthy efforts):

A Man Called Sledge (good but cut)
A Minute To Pray A Second to Die (ok but cut)
Mannaja A Man Called Blade (ok)
Blindman (tongue in cheek but inpsired lunacy)
And God Said To Cain (ok a spaghetti/suspence/gothic film that feels more like a made for TV film)

The not sure if they are classified as Spaghetti Westerns but likely Euro Westerns partially shot in Almeria List:

Villa Rides (great)
Renegade (great)
Red Sun (good)
Shalako (ok)
100 Rifles (ok)

In a class by itself but has SW influences

El Topo (good but very flawed)

To rent first before you buy if curious List*:

The Specialist (good, but way off the mark and very seriously flawed)
Man Pride Vengeance ("Carmen" Spaghetti Style)
The Grand Duel (flawed)
Four of the Apocalypse (flawed)
El Condor (need to see again)
Django (cool parts, dopey parts, dopey dubbing)
Price of Power (flawed)
Navajo Joe (flawed)
Four of the Apocalypse (flawed)
Beyond the Law (hohum)
Kill & Pray (dopey)
Captain Apache (the worst so far)
A Bullet For Sandoval (crappy VHS need to see again)
I am Sartana your Angel of Death (too dopey for me)
Bad Man's River (horrible)


*This list could probably go up into the 100''s but I''m not going to be inclined to watching many off the wall SW''s, if you drop in on the SW''s board you''ll hear about a lot of obscure titles.

Again Feel free to add or comment.





Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: The Firecracker on April 01, 2006, 02:55:45 PM


WTF is up with the man, sombody's got to write a book researching the other top SW directors, how can somebody make "The Mercenary" then a year later make "The Specialist". This film is seriously flawed, but its well made but the effects of the out of context parts totally destroy it.





according to my book "Spaghetti westerns: the good the bad and the violent"

Cobucci was displeased with the result of "the specialist" due to "script-writing disagreements" between him and co-writer Sabattino Ciufinni. I guess that is where the flaws you mentioned come in.

Banjo: I noticed you have not seen "a pistol for ringo". perhaps ,if we will be trading films soon, this should be one of the ones you would like from me? You would love it, it has all the action (the violence gets rather brutal at times)you could hope for and lots of comedy.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: The Firecracker on April 01, 2006, 03:03:22 PM

The Grand Duel (flawed)


I noticed you have "The grand duel" in the "rent first" catergory...why do you think it is flawed Joe?


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on April 01, 2006, 05:42:32 PM
Well I thought the acrobatics in the beginning gun battle are a bit over the top, more like something you'd see in an Kung Fu, Three Musketeers,  or  "Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves" type film.  The machine gun looks like something out of WWII, way, way too modern for me, Eli Saxon is too much of a flamer for the old West, do you really think he'd last long out there, his own brother would put a bullet in his head just to protect the family honor, lol. 

The whole film seemed just a bit off. 

Besides Van Cleef the only other thing its got going is the music.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: The Firecracker on April 01, 2006, 08:32:25 PM
Well I thought the acrobatics in the beginning gun battle are a bit over the top, more like something you'd see in an Kung Fu, Three Musketeers,  or  "Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves" type film.  The machine gun looks like something out of WWII, way, way too modern for me, Eli Saxon is too much of a flamer for the old West, do you really think he'd last long out there, his own brother would put a bullet in his head just to protect the family honor, lol. 

The whole film seemed just a bit off. 

Besides Van Cleef the only other thing its got going is the music.

I gotcha on the swashbuckling type heroics in the beginning but adam saxon being an obvious flamer didnt bother me at all. I am used to having homosexual baddies as the main villians to spaghetti westerns, it is a quirky concept and it works. And it also helped that he is a deranged lunatic as well.

As for the gun, again not a bother(to me). I am also used to sw's being historically inaccurate(its a film!). The guns in Duck you sucker if I am not mistaken were from another era entirly, not 1913 mexico. Gbu also has date problems with its firearms that are shown in the film as does the rest of the dollars trilogy.

To me "The Grand Duel" is an excellent example of the genre and deserves to be in the "b" league of spahetti westerns. But I know it is different stroakes for different folks.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on April 01, 2006, 11:50:57 PM
I do think Leone and Simi were more careful to try and get the look somewhat closer to the historical in their films, this one is much more noticeable, to me at least.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on July 02, 2006, 09:24:45 PM
July 2 2006 update:

Well lets see its time I updated this list, I've since seen an Almeria shot film "The Hunting Party" (1971) NGN CLassic DVD, dir by Don Medford with Oliver Reed, Gene Hackman, Candace Bergen, and Simon Oakland, it should have had some recognizeable SW regulars but I didn't notce any. You will notice familiar SW locations (ie. the station at La Calahorra amd the familiar "American dressed" steam locomotive.

Its a very misoginistic bloody violent film that is on par with any bloody violent film made today with the bonus that its a more adult film than most  "R" rated films in theaters. It also has a very SW ending, and Oliver Reed does a believeable turn as an outlaw so I'll recomend it provisionally if you can find it for under $10. Story is ok, soundtrack is not memorable, its entertaining.

Of the following lists  the A list contains SW's that deliver
that equal or almost up there quality. These films are worth getting and being part of your collection.

The "A" list of "Must Haves" so far in decending order (desending in quality from Leone the top five are very good are all equal, Sollima's Big Gundown being almost a Leone clone):

The Big Gundown (great)
The Mercenary (the best)
Companero''s (great)
Death Rides A Horse (great)
A Bullet For The General (great)
Run Man Run (great)
The Great Silence (great)
Cemetery Without Crosses (good)
Keoma (good)
Tepepa (good)
Day Of Anger (flawed)
Face To Face (flawed)


The "B" List (worthy efforts):

A Man Called Sledge (good but cut)
A Minute To Pray A Second to Die (ok but cut)
Mannaja A Man Called Blade (ok)
Blindman (tongue in cheek but inpsired lunacy)
And God Said To Cain (ok a spaghetti/suspence/gothic film that feels more like a made for TV film)

The not sure if they are classified as Spaghetti Westerns but likely Euro Westerns partially shot in Almeria List:

Villa Rides (great)
Renegade (great)
Red Sun (good)
The Hunting Party (ok)
Shalako (ok)
100 Rifles (ok)

In a class by itself but has SW influences

El Topo (good but very flawed)

To rent first before you buy if curious List*:

The Specialist (good, but way off the mark and very seriously flawed)
Man Pride Vengeance ("Carmen" Spaghetti Style)
The Grand Duel (flawed)
Four of the Apocalypse (flawed)
El Condor (need to see again)
Django (cool parts, dopey parts, dopey dubbing)
Price of Power (flawed)
Navajo Joe (flawed)
Four of the Apocalypse (flawed)
Beyond the Law (hohum)
Kill & Pray (dopey)
Captain Apache (the worst so far)
A Bullet For Sandoval (crappy VHS need to see again)
I am Sartana your Angel of Death (too dopey for me)
Bad Man's River (horrible)


*This list could probably go up into the 100''s but I''m not going to be inclined to watching many off the wall SW''s, if you drop in on the SW''s board you''ll hear about a lot of obscure titles.

Again Feel free to add or comment.



Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Arizona Colt on July 02, 2006, 10:02:53 PM
I found the flamboyantly elaborate action choreography to be a welcome breath of fresh air in GRAND DUEL. The genre is littered with spags that have some of the worst as well as the most badly telegraphed (fist)fight scenes of any genre and the standard 'two guys firing back and forth behind barrels etc....' gets VERY old after a while. Many of these films are not meant for intellectual consumption but pure entertainment and should be viewed in that context for proper assessment.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on July 03, 2006, 06:33:13 AM
Im my opinon I found the Grand Dule to be more akin to Aladin, or Ali Baba and his 40 Thieves type actioners, a bit too farfetched in a Western for this buckaroo.

Seeing LVC in his last turn as a "Mortimer" type character and the score is GD's only high points.


Quote
Many of these films are not meant for intellectual consumption but pure entertainment and should be viewed in that context for proper assessment
.

I like Westerns, I don't need cartoon acrobatics for entertainment.  And who are you to judge what context I should view the Westerns I like in...... make your own list  8)


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: The Firecracker on July 04, 2006, 03:01:00 PM
Im my opinon I found the Grand Dule to be more akin to Aladin, or Ali Baba and his 40 Thieves type actioners, a bit too farfetched in a Western for this buckaroo.


oh come now Joe!
GD is not as swashbuckler as you potray. The only Aladdin/Piratey thing that takes place is a bit of Peter O'Brein's acrobactic leaps every now and again(I think about twice in the film).
GD is the last great LVC spag and his character is the closest he ever got to Mortimer again.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on July 04, 2006, 09:44:38 PM
I should designate a new catagory of SW, "the gravel pitter"  ;D

 Grand Dule is really noticeable in this area, a lot of it was shot in a gravel pit. When not in Spain a gravel pit will do, lol.

Its just a bit too much cartoonish and seems to be shot on the cheap for me ( the stagecoach looks like a fancy livery carriage with a rigged canvas top, what they couldn't afford a real stagecoach?) and it has no where near the production values of the greats. And the story is a bit on the dopey side too, its in the proper catagory.

Also that bit where LVC supposedly removes the primer from the bullet with his teeth is also a bit farfetched Those are flush within the cartridge no way you are going to remove it with your teeth. The machine gun looked like something out of WWI or WWII, where do you draw the line? You could just as well have a lazer gun in some of these westerns, or have Vermeer step on bullets and climb into the sky a la "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" A Western should fit into some parameters, no?  and I don't just limit this to SW's or Euros the American Western "War Wagon" is more in the "Wild Wild West" vein to me also.

It may have been LVC's last spag but he should have quit after Death Rides A Horse.  8)


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Arizona Colt on July 09, 2006, 10:00:08 PM
I wasn't trying to judge you Joe, I was just saying most of these movies were not meant to be taken seriously and certainly not THE GRAND DUEL which, regardless of budget, is a fitfully entertaining and occassionally over the top movie that doesn't try to be anything more than escapist entertainment. Giancarlo Santi, who if I'm not mistaken directed several weeks of DUCK YOU SUCKER, apes Leones style very well and ups the ante a bit by adding adrenaline fueled setpieces and quirky characters to the mix. The DOLLAR flicks aren't exactly historically accurate either and aside from maybe a couple of them, nearly all italian oaters were low budget affairs but that doesn't mean they're any less enjoyable than a movie with a higher price tag.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on July 10, 2006, 05:49:34 AM
Quote
The DOLLAR flicks aren't exactly historically accurate either and aside from maybe a couple of them, nearly all italian oaters were low budget affairs but that doesn't mean they're any less enjoyable than a movie with a higher price tag.


Well I'll agree partially with this, but Leone, Stephanelli,  & Simi, were at a higher level,  they went through a lot of trouble to make it look as accurate as possible, they even removed the forestock of a Winchester to make it look like a Henry.

I've been reading a book on "the Movie Railroads" (Larry Jensen 1981) and a lot of the locomotives used in a lot of our favorite US Westerns were late 1880's tp 1910 locos "dressed" to look older. There were a few that were not, but I was surprized at the amount that newer and backdated.

Look at Red River where JW and John Ireland are sporting a 1873 Peacemakers, even The Searchers has Civil War Vet JW showing up with a Peacemaker.

I enjoy the ridiculous premis of Blindman but I'm in a different state of mind when I put it into the player.

If you've never seen any Italian Westerns other than Leone's, I say why be dissapointed and out money, if you can rent something first do so. If it is to your taste then buy it for your collection, that is the purpose of this thread.

I think its in the right catagory.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: The Firecracker on July 12, 2006, 11:14:39 PM


Also that bit where LVC supposedly removes the primer from the bullet with his teeth is also a bit farfetched Those are flush within the cartridge no way you are going to remove it with your teeth.

he could have removed it with a knife off screen?
It never shows him clamping down on the bullet with his molers.


Colt:

Santi is mentioned on Weisser's book as too doing a "larger-than-normal amount of second unit work for DYS".

But honestly...

what does Weisser know ? ::)


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 13, 2006, 04:27:51 PM
what does Weisser know ? ::)
Sod all.
I watched Kill Them All And Come Back Alone yesterday and with this being such a rare sw at present my dvdr copy of an old vhs is terribly muffled and in places almost inaudible audio so i consulted Weissers book to try and clarify for myself the plot and it would seem from the description  that Weissers never watched this .How the hell did he get the book published?
I'm looking forward to your new topic of Weissers clangers Firecracker ;D


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: The Firecracker on July 13, 2006, 05:31:27 PM

I'm looking forward to your new topic of Weissers clangers Firecracker ;D

I'll get on that tonight.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Arizona Colt on July 14, 2006, 04:08:21 PM
The info about Santis' directing several weeks on DYS came from another spag book I have. I already was aware of Weissers tall tales back in the early 90s so I didn't purchase his book.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 15, 2006, 06:56:17 AM
Its still a very useful tool as it lists every single spaghetti and has helpful cross references at the back for directors,performers,composers etc and all the films they were involved in.You just have to take everything with a pinch of salt but there are some real howlers in the book.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Arizona Colt on July 17, 2006, 10:53:28 PM
If you were a fan of kung fu movies or asian cinema in general you'd be brought to tears of utter frustration as well as disbelief at the MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY errors not to mention films that are completely made up(!) that are to be found in his earlier as well as some later publications.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: The Firecracker on July 17, 2006, 11:24:11 PM
If you were a fan of kung fu movies or asian cinema in general you'd be brought to tears of utter frustration as well as disbelief at the MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY errors not to mention films that are completely made up(!) that are to be found in his earlier as well as some later publications.

so whats with the guy?
Why does he go through the trouble of making crap up?
Why not just tell the truth? It saves me the frustration and saves him the hastle of trying to make up stories.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on July 18, 2006, 05:25:36 AM
I think I saw this book in a Hard Cover (red) version in the Kalispell, Montana, public library, what I remember most (if its the right book) was the copiuos amount of images in contained, at the time I didn't know it was inaccurate.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 19, 2006, 11:44:17 AM
so whats with the guy?
Why does he go through the trouble of making crap up?
Why not just tell the truth? It saves me the frustration and saves him the hastle of trying to make up stories.
He could be a compulsive liar.I used to work with one and although a bit sad it was also very entertaining ;D


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: The Firecracker on July 19, 2006, 01:31:46 PM
He could be a compulsive liar.I used to work with one and although a bit sad it was also very entertaining ;D

Ive delt with the kind at school once. It is entertaining but other times it can be damn annoying. especially when they start making stuff up about you.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Arizona Colt on July 19, 2006, 04:49:43 PM
Weisser also works with another writer who writes in his ASIAN CULT CINEMA magazine named Ric Meyers who is even more frivolous with the lies than Weisser. Searingly hated by kung fu fans for his incredibly stupid made up stories and what makes it worse the guy has won several writing awards for various novels, writes for INSIDE KUNG FU magazine and also can be found on dozens of asian action dvds released here where he makes up even more crap.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: The Peacemaker on July 19, 2006, 05:20:49 PM
Weisser also works with another writer who writes in his ASIAN CULT CINEMA magazine named Ric Meyers who is even more frivolous with the lies than Weisser. Searingly hated by kung fu fans for his incredibly stupid made up stories and what makes it worse the guy has won several writing awards for various novels, writes for INSIDE KUNG FU magazine and also can be found on dozens of asian action dvds released here where he makes up even more crap.

Never liked kung-fu movies, most of them are so painful to watch they make me laugh.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Arizona Colt on July 19, 2006, 10:48:55 PM
You've probably never seen any good ones. A small number of titles that feature a good plot, beautiful and or massive sets accompanied by intricate choreography are-
THE WATER MARGIN 1972
ALL MEN ARE BROTHERS 1973
BOXER FROM SHANTUNG 1972
HEROIC ONES 1971
THE 8 DIAGRAM POLE FIGHTER 1984
SHAOLIN MARTIAL ARTS 1974
THE MASTER STRIKES BACK 1984
OPIUM & THE KUNG FU MASTER 1984
SECRET SERVICE OF THE IMPERIAL COURT 1984
KILLER CONSTABLE 1979
THE SENTIMENTAL SWORDSMAN 1977
THE JADE TIGER 1977
SWORDSMAN & THE ENCHANTRESS 1977
MY YOUNG AUNTIE 1980
THE MARTIAL CLUB 1980
THE ASSASSIN 1967
THE ONE ARMED SWORDSMAN 1967
AVENGING EAGLE 1978
FIVE VENOMS 1978
SHAOLIN RESCUERS 1978
CRIPPLED AVENGERS 1978
SEVEN MAN ARMY 1976
BOXER REBELLION 1975
THE DUEL 1971
THE 36th CHAMBER OF SHAOLIN 1978
AMBUSH 1969
12 DEADLY COINS 1969
THE BELLS OF DEATH 1968
THE FLYING GUILLOTINE 1975


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 20, 2006, 04:51:59 AM
Never liked kung-fu movies, most of them are so painful to watch they make me laugh.
I think the Bruce Lee movies are unrivalled.Anything coming out today is full of crappy The Matrix-like special effects with everybody flying around mid-air.How unrealistic.
I also have a soft spot for the early 70's David Carradine Kung Fu series which were all mini-westerns.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on July 20, 2006, 02:29:28 PM
Quote
Don't make me come over there Joe 


Nice to see you back here  8)


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Arizona Colt on July 21, 2006, 01:18:30 PM
I think the Bruce Lee movies are unrivalled.Anything coming out today is full of crappy The Matrix-like special effects with everybody flying around mid-air.How unrealistic.
I also have a soft spot for the early 70's David Carradine Kung Fu series which were all mini-westerns.
Well you have to understand the genre and culture before you can understand the films. The films that feature "flying around in midair" are part of a genre called the "Wu Xia Pian" genre which feature chivalrous knights that possess superhuman powers. The plots generally feature multiple clans battling over control of the martial world and or the search for a magical or invincible weapon of some sort accompanied by much betrayals, double crosses and usually a doomed romance or two. These types of films have been around since the mid 1920s. The flying around is normal for this type of film similar to the super hero films we have here. I have many asian comic books that feature modern day and period heroes and villains that are very similar to our Superman or Spiderman.

 As far as Bruce Lee goes, The man was brilliant but I've never been a fan of his movies. I think the only reason they are as popular as they are is because he's dead and he was already a known commodity in the US at the time. The filmmaking in his movies for Lo Wei is mediocre compared to some of the other KF films of the time.

Incidentally, Bruce initially went to Shaw Brothers because he admired there stylish and well polished productions with there stories of heroes who would take on insurmountable odds to accomplish a mission. Character driven films such as THE CHINESE BOXER (1969), THE DUEL (1969), VENGEANCE! (1970), and the Peckinpah like BOXER FROM SHANTUNG (1972) were some of the films Bruce admired. He even did some photo shoots for films to feature him directed by one of the greatest and most influencial action directors of all time Chang Cheh(one of Tarantinos idols) but it was not to be.

Shaw, who at the time still used the old style Hollywood system of keeping all there actors under contract as well as paying everyone the same. Bruce scoffed at this and was preparing to leave for America when Raymond Chow, a former Executive under Sir Run Run Shaw(the only Brother to be knighted I believe)had started Golden Harvest Studios which was on the verge of bankruptcy as no one could compete with Shaws at the time(not to mention that Shaws owned nearly all the theater chains in Asia!).

As a last ditch effort Chow offered Lee something more to his liking so he stayed in HK for a while making a couple of films for Lo Wei, a former actor and director at Shaws who would go on to have a famous confrontation with Lee a couple of years later. Bruce is often cited as introducing the West to kung fu films. The Shaw film KING BOXER(starring Lo Lieh from STRANGER & THE GUNFIGHTER a Shaw co-production and partially filmed in HK) released here as 5 FINGERS OF DEATH was the first to open the floodgates and is still one of the top grossing international films released here.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 21, 2006, 04:36:08 PM
I know nothing of the martial arts but in comparison to what came after, Bruce Lee was truly magical to watch in action and had this wonderful charisma missing from the likes of Chuck Norris,Jean Claud Van Damme,Jet Li,Jackie Chan and all the rest.Regardless of the quality of Lees movies these later fighters just don't look nowhere near as flowing and natural in their movements and i just love Lees whole philosophy towards his art and life in general.What a great shame Game Of Death was never completed because the surviving footage is some of the best kung fu i've seen.
Thanks AC for the clarification of Wu Xia Pian and i'm sure i saw in a Bruce Lee docu how this style of kung fu was predominant in Hong Kong cinema in the 60's and the whole genre had become stagnent because of it and Lee went out of his way to with his movies to do away with this fantasy bollocks and wow his audience with his innovative Jeet Kun Du(please excuse the spelling :-[ )
Enter The Dragon is one of my favourite all time movies but i enjoy all Lees other films too :)


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: The Firecracker on July 21, 2006, 04:38:18 PM
I know nothing of the martial arts but in comparison to what came after, Bruce Lee was truly magical to watch in action and had this wonderful charisma missing from the likes of Chuck Norris,Jean Claud Van Damme,Jet Li,Jackie Chan

Jackie Chan was charming at one point but now he has become to Hollywood and annoying.

Banjo have you seen "legend of drunken master"? The climactic fight is amazing and not to be missed.
I hear the sequel's ending fight is even better!


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 21, 2006, 04:41:00 PM
Jackie Chan was charming at one poin t but now he has become to Hollywood and annoying.

Banjo have you seen "legend of drunken master"? The climactic fight is amazing and not to be missed.
I hear the sequel's ending fight is even better!
Outside of Lee,Carradine,Stranger & The Gunfighter,Shanghai Joe and wait for it Monkee ;D my kung fu knowledge is somewhat lacking.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: The Firecracker on July 21, 2006, 04:43:35 PM
Outside of Lee,Carradine,Stranger & The Gunfighter,Shanghai Joe and wait for it Monkee ;D my kung fu knowledge is somewhat lacking.
so is mine. I have only seen a handful myself. I dont really like much that I have seen but if it has good fight sequences I will like it.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on July 21, 2006, 04:48:31 PM
My favorite film in this genre, is Carpenters "Big Trouble In Little China".  ;D Lots of fun to watch.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: The Firecracker on July 21, 2006, 04:50:21 PM
My favorite film in this genre, is Carpenters "Big Trouble In Little China".  ;D Lots of fun to watch.
I never realized that was a kung-fu film. I thought it was a shoot-em up. I'll have to check it out.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: boardwalk_angel on July 21, 2006, 05:08:56 PM
I highly recommend the 1991 film "Once Upon A Time In China".......starring Jet Li..directed by Tsui Hark.,,& yes..the similarity of the title to Leone's film is no accident.
It's very much an ode & homage to 'Once Upon A Time In The West'..set in 19th century China ..& is  a genuine masterpiece of Hong Kong cinema.
The martial arts sequences are among the best ever..



Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on July 21, 2006, 05:11:35 PM
Its definitely got this but its not sprung upon you cold turkey, its got a mystical explanation thats up front all the way.

Quote
The films that feature "flying around in midair" are part of a genre called the "Wu Xia Pian" genre


And Kurt Russel is a hoot channeling John Wayne  ;D


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 21, 2006, 05:48:55 PM
I highly recommend the 1991 film "Once Upon A Time In China".......starring Jet Li..directed by Tsui Hark.,,& yes..the similarity of the title to Leone's film is no accident.
It's very much an ode & homage to 'Once Upon A Time In The West'..set in 19th century China ..& is  a genuine masterpiece of Hong Kong cinema.
The martial arts sequences are among the best ever..


There is one Jet Li i like called Kiss Of The Dragon which is set (i think) in Paris and it hardly contains any of the dodgy Matrixisms in the other Li films i sampled.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Arizona Colt on July 21, 2006, 11:09:36 PM
I know nothing of the martial arts but in comparison to what came after, Bruce Lee was truly magical to watch in action and had this wonderful charisma missing from the likes of Chuck Norris,Jean Claud Van Damme,Jet Li,Jackie Chan and all the rest.Regardless of the quality of Lees movies these later fighters just don't look nowhere near as flowing and natural in their movements and i just love Lees whole philosophy towards his art and life in general.What a great shame Game Of Death was never completed because the surviving footage is some of the best kung fu i've seen.
Thanks AC for the clarification of Wu Xia Pian and i'm sure i saw in a Bruce Lee docu how this style of kung fu was predominant in Hong Kong cinema in the 60's and the whole genre had become stagnent because of it and Lee went out of his way to with his movies to do away with this fantasy bollocks and wow his audience with his innovative Jeet Kun Du(please excuse the spelling :-[ )
Enter The Dragon is one of my favourite all time movies but i enjoy all Lees other films too :)
The fantasy styled action films had already ceased before Bruce began filming his first HK film. Shaw Brothers personally financed the "New Hero Genre" as it was referred to in HK. This style of film featured more realistic action with the first being VENGEANCE!(although Jimmy Wang Yu's CHINESE BOXER, another Shaw hit called HAMMER OF GOD in the US is sometimes cited as the first of the then new style of HK filmmaking).

The director was Chang Cheh, a former columnist, poet and scriptwriter who was heavily influenced by Japanese gangster films particularly those by Seijun Suzuki. Changs films were ballets of bloody violence and intense action set pieces that focused on honor and heroism. His films were also male dominated with women usually having nothing to do other than be helpless or lure the heroes to there doom.

HK films up until Chang came onto the scene, were dominated by females with even male actors playing female roles in movies. There has been much speculation as to Chang Chehs sexual preference because of the imagery in many of his movies. The male leads always appear to have very close relationships, they often are shirtless and nearly every Chang film features lots of scenes of extreme violence with many scenes of characters impaled by some sharp implement. Some critics have viewed this as representing phallic symbolism.

Another trendy aspect of Changs movies were that the heroes often died with the villains-you never knew if they were going to live or not unlike American films where the good guys always lived in the end(mostly). John Woo was an apprentice to Chang Cheh and worked as an assistant director on some of his early 70s films like the classic BOXER FROM SHANTUNG a film that made its star Chen Kuan Tai famous literally over night. Many of the exact same elements of Changs movies can be found in all of John Woos films, both his HK and american films.

 Chang was called the 'million dollar director' because he was the first director to have a film break the million dollar mark at the HK box office. That film was the classic ONE ARMED SWORDSMAN from 1967. Chang would also during the early 70s direct a handful of 'cast of thousands' spectaculars. A couple of them are  BOXER REBELLION (1975) a true story about the invasion of the Forbidden City by Britain, Germany, Japan, etc...and the attempt by many chinese, who were led to believe they were invincible to the foreign guns and were massacred instead, to defend the homeland from invaders. Richard Harrison portrays a sympathetic German General. This story was touched upon in ONCE UPON A TIME IN CHINA 2 with Jet Li. SEVEN MAN ARMY (1976) a true account during WW2 were 7 chinese soldiers held off thousands of Japanese troops for five days and nights in a brave stand to hold a fort. NAVAL COMMANDOS (1976) a fictional story about 12 chinese warriors from different backgrounds who come together to get revenge for the death of a famous chinese navy admiral by crippling the japanese naval fleet.

The fantasy style films however would come back into vogue in 1976 with the release of KILLER CLANS a film based on the novels of Ku Lung who wrote hundreds of famous stories of martial chivalry. Everyone in China young or old knows about Ku Lungs stories. These movies proved so popular again that many small companies would try there hand at it but none could match Shaws with their beautifully and meticulously constructed sets, costumes and plotlines. Some of the movies are difficult to follow and require several viewings to understand. Some classic examples of these are THE JADE TIGER (1977), SWORDSMAN & THE ENCHANTRESS (1978), THE SENTIMENTAL SWORDSMAN (1977), LEGEND OF THE BAT (1978) and RETURN OF THE SENTIMENTAL SWORDSMAN (1980).


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 22, 2006, 01:21:27 AM
Wow AC,you really do know your kung fu as well as sw's and exploitation movies.How dya fit it all in? ::)
   As i said above i'm a huge fan of Enter The Dragon-in which i love the kung fu tournament with Lee,Jim Kelly & John Saxon.Are there any decent imitations out there?


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Arizona Colt on July 22, 2006, 01:38:59 PM
I'm not very knowledgeable on the spaghettis as I've only recently began delving more deeply into the genre. Before last year I only had about 15 spags now it's about 100. I do have 3 or 4 books(not the BIG book of lies from Weisser)on the subject.

When you say any decent imitations how do you mean? Do you mean films that feature a tournament similar to ETD? Since you like Bruce Lee a lot have you ever seen any of the Bruceploitation movies that feature a lot of Bruces and a lot of Lees, like Bruce Le, Bruce Li, Bruce Thai, Bruce Liang(who was also in KUNG FU HUSTLE), Bruce Rhee, Dragon Lee, Bronson Lee, Conan Lee, etc.........Nearly all of these movies are complete crap but many do have a so bad it's good charm about them and this genre of film has a big following too. Amazing.

One of the best and inarguably the wildest of the Bruceploitations is THE DRAGON LIVES AGAIN, a movie not to be taken seriously at all. In it Bruce Liang plays Bruce Lee who has just died and gone to Hell. The only plot is Bruce trying to fight his way back to Earth and enlisting the help of (and I'm not making this up) Kwai Chang Caine, Zatoichi, the One Armed Swordsmanand Popeye(!). They do battle with the King of Hells minions which include The Man With No Name(I'm serious), James Bond(for real), the excorcist, Emmanuelle, the Godfather, Dracula and his army of Zombies and kung fu Mummies. There's also lots of naked girls and much humor(particularly when Bruce arrives in Hell covered in a sheet with his nunchucks sticking up from between his legs making it appear he died with a hard on. Sometimes when Bruce fights he fights wearing his Kato mask from GREEN HORNET. The ending is lifted from WIZARD OF OZ and also musical cues from ENTER THE DRAGON, FISTFUL OF DOLLARS and Carl Douglas' "Kung Fu Fighting" can be heard on the soundtrack.

It was common practice in HK for there movies to feature library tracks or cues from popular American films as the tiny colony was producing upwards of 300 movies a year with Shaw Brothers alone producing 40 or more and distributing many of the others. The Shaws have I think the third largest(It's even bigger now) film production facility in the world and it was amazing the level of quality they were able to get with as many films as they were making. It was common practice in HK for actors and directors to work on 5 movies simultaneously.

With such fast and furious production practices to satisfy the appetites of moviegoers there wasn't enough time to provide original soundtracks to all films. Since HK went back to China HK Cinema itself is more or less dead. There's only a few (decent) films that come out of there now. That's one of the main reasons for Celestial Pictures, run by former Sony CEO Charles Pfeiffer, to plunk down 1.2 Billion dollars to remaster the entire Shaw Brothers back catalog using the same technology that was used to remaster the original STAR WARS trilogy several years ago.

The plan was to reaquaint people with those movies since they had not been seen since there original release. Shaw had a curious policy about not re-releasing his movies. Once they came out(in Asia) and made there money that was it, they were put back into the vault. One problem with this was that many filmmakers would later take credit for concepts that were originated at Shaws.

Jackie Chan is nearly always credited with creating the kung fu comedy in SNAKE IN THE EAGLES SHADOW(some interesting behind the scenes stories on this one) but the Shaw film THE SPIRITUAL BOXER (1975) directed by Liu Chia Liang(who is still directing and choreographing in his late 60s)started the ball rolling. Incidentally Liang directed the Jackie vehicle DRUNKEN MASTER 2 which was called LEGEND OF THE DRUNKEN MASTER here. The first DRUNKEN MASTER was made in 1979 so that may acount for the US title change(there's some interesting behind the scenes stories here too!)Although Liang is credited as director, Two chiefs can't occupy the same mountain so Jackie took control towards the end of filming claiming that people wanted to see HIS style of fighting, not the old style.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 23, 2006, 04:17:44 AM
When you say any decent imitations how do you mean? Do you mean films that feature a tournament similar to ETD? Since you like Bruce Lee a lot have you ever seen any of the Bruceploitation movies that feature a lot of Bruces and a lot of Lees, like Bruce Le, Bruce Li, Bruce Thai, Bruce Liang(who was also in KUNG FU HUSTLE), Bruce Rhee, Dragon Lee, Bronson Lee, Conan Lee, etc.........Nearly all of these movies are complete crap but many do have a so bad it's good charm about them and this genre of film has a big following too.
Yeah i did mean kung fu films with tournaments and i like the Dr No style baddie as well.Theres plenty of leads,thank you very much ;),for Bruceploitation movies so i guess there aren't any big budget films with big names like Jet Li,Chow Fat thingy etc in a similar vein to ETD?One really good film whose title escapes me with Chuck Norris which reminds me a little bit of a Bruce Lee film has a finale in a hexagonal fort where Norris takes on a whole army of fighters.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on July 23, 2006, 03:58:23 PM
AC just so its a bit easier on the eyes break up your postings into paragraphs, its hard to read what you write thanks :)


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on July 23, 2006, 04:05:05 PM
July 23 2006 update:

Watched "White Comanche" om TCM yesterday with William Shatner and Joseph Cotton, what a piece of crap, lol, and a horrible score to boot. Any way since there is no catagory for forgedabodit, try to rent first if you are dying to see Captian Kirk in a SW.


Of the following lists  the A list contains SW's that deliver
that equal or almost up there quality. These films are worth getting and being part of your collection.

The "A" list of "Must Haves" so far in decending order (desending in quality from Leone the top five are very good are all equal, Sollima's Big Gundown being almost a Leone clone):

The Big Gundown (great)
The Mercenary (the best)
Companero''s (great)
Death Rides A Horse (great)
A Bullet For The General (great)
Run Man Run (great)
The Great Silence (great)
Cemetery Without Crosses (good)
Keoma (good)
Tepepa (good)
Day Of Anger (flawed)
Face To Face (flawed)


The "B" List (worthy efforts):

A Man Called Sledge (good but cut)
A Minute To Pray A Second to Die (ok but cut)
Mannaja A Man Called Blade (ok)
Blindman (tongue in cheek but inpsired lunacy)
And God Said To Cain (ok a spaghetti/suspence/gothic film that feels more like a made for TV film)

The not sure if they are classified as Spaghetti Westerns but likely Euro Westerns partially shot in Almeria List:

Villa Rides (great)
Renegade (great)
Red Sun (good)
The Hunting Party (ok)
Shalako (ok)
100 Rifles (ok)

In a class by itself but has SW influences

El Topo (good but very flawed)

To rent first before you buy if curious List*:

The Specialist (good, but way off the mark and very seriously flawed)
Man Pride Vengeance ("Carmen" Spaghetti Style)
The Grand Duel (flawed)
Four of the Apocalypse (flawed)
El Condor (need to see again)
Django (cool parts, dopey parts, dopey dubbing)
Price of Power (flawed)
Navajo Joe (flawed)
Four of the Apocalypse (flawed)
Beyond the Law (hohum)
Kill & Pray (dopey)
Captain Apache (the worst so far)
A Bullet For Sandoval (crappy VHS need to see again)
I am Sartana your Angel of Death (too dopey for me)
Bad Man's River (horrible)
White Comache (wose than Captian Apache)


*This list could probably go up into the 100''s but I''m not going to be inclined to watching many off the wall SW''s, if you drop in on the SW''s board you''ll hear about a lot of obscure titles.

Again Feel free to add or comment.



Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: The Peacemaker on July 23, 2006, 04:08:06 PM
July 23 2006 update:

Watched "White Comanche" om TCM yesterday with William Shatner and Joseph Cotton, what a piece of crap, lol, and a horrible score to boot. Any way since there is no catagory for forgedabodit, try to rent first if you are dying to see Captian Kirk in a SW.


Of the following lists  the A list contains SW's that deliver
that equal or almost up there quality. These films are worth getting and being part of your collection.

The "A" list of "Must Haves" so far in decending order (desending in quality from Leone the top five are very good are all equal, Sollima's Big Gundown being almost a Leone clone):

The Big Gundown (great)
The Mercenary (the best)
Companero''s (great)
Death Rides A Horse (great)
A Bullet For The General (great)
Run Man Run (great)
The Great Silence (great)
Cemetery Without Crosses (good)
Keoma (good)
Tepepa (good)
Day Of Anger (flawed)
Face To Face (flawed)


The "B" List (worthy efforts):

A Man Called Sledge (good but cut)
A Minute To Pray A Second to Die (ok but cut)
Mannaja A Man Called Blade (ok)
Blindman (tongue in cheek but inpsired lunacy)
And God Said To Cain (ok a spaghetti/suspence/gothic film that feels more like a made for TV film)

The not sure if they are classified as Spaghetti Westerns but likely Euro Westerns partially shot in Almeria List:

Villa Rides (great)
Renegade (great)
Red Sun (good)
The Hunting Party (ok)
Shalako (ok)
100 Rifles (ok)

In a class by itself but has SW influences

El Topo (good but very flawed)

To rent first before you buy if curious List*:

The Specialist (good, but way off the mark and very seriously flawed)
Man Pride Vengeance ("Carmen" Spaghetti Style)
The Grand Duel (flawed)
Four of the Apocalypse (flawed)
El Condor (need to see again)
Django (cool parts, dopey parts, dopey dubbing)
Price of Power (flawed)
Navajo Joe (flawed)
Four of the Apocalypse (flawed)
Beyond the Law (hohum)
Kill & Pray (dopey)
Captain Apache (the worst so far)
A Bullet For Sandoval (crappy VHS need to see again)
I am Sartana your Angel of Death (too dopey for me)
Bad Man's River (horrible)
White Comache (wose than Captian Apache)


*This list could probably go up into the 100''s but I''m not going to be inclined to watching many off the wall SW''s, if you drop in on the SW''s board you''ll hear about a lot of obscure titles.

Again Feel free to add or comment.



Impressive list Cigar Joe.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Arizona Colt on July 24, 2006, 11:07:22 PM
AC just so its a bit easier on the eyes break up your postings into paragraphs, its hard to read what you write thanks :)
Sorry Joe, I have limited time so I'm typing very quickly. I'll try and make it easier from now on. Sorry 'bout that.

For Banjo, the film you're referring with Norris is THE OCTAGON with Tadashi Yamashita, one of the last Budo warriors on the planet who was also the main villain in AMERICAN NINJA and was a star in the 70s in his native Japan. He was the actor who was BRONSON LEE in three movies. Lee Van Cleef is also in THE OCTAGON.

If you're looking for big budget HK films reminiscent of ETD most of the Shaw films and Golden Harvest had the biggest budgets in HK. These two companies also had partnerships with US companies. The Shaws co-produced Ridley Scotts BLADE RUNNER and THE DUELLISTS, METEOR with Sean Connery, CLEOPATRA JONES & THE CASINO OF GOLD and a few others while Golden Harvest co-produced ETD, CANNONBALL RUN 1 & 2, and the MEGA-crappy MEGAFORCE with Barry Bostwick and Henry Silva. You know this one, with the lightsabres and flying motorcycles? One of the worst of all time.

The big names you mention are/were big but HK in the 70s had stars just as big if not more so like Chen Kuan Tai who became famous over night for THE BOXER FROM SHANTUNG 1972(Bruce Lee was supposed to have done a movie with Chen) and its sequel MAN OF IRON. BFST was different from most action fare of the time as it was more character driven than most about a poor dock worker who dreams to one day be a man with power. He later becomes a powerful gangster who when at the top of the ladder, finds it's a long way down. The peckinpahish finale is one of the most bloodsoaked final 20 minutes you'll ever see. Chens career lasted well over 25 years.

Alexander Fu Sheng-One of the biggest HK stars ever and the prototype for Jackie Chan. Nearly every movie the man did turned to box office gold. Tragically, Fu's life was cut short when he was killed in a car accident in 1983. He died 2 hours after being treated in hospital. He was 29 years old. One strange twist of fate was that Fu Sheng bought the house previously owned by Bruce Lee. A house noted for its bad Feng Shui. Fu also broke his legs two different times while filming movies and when he died he was half way through the filming of Liu Chia Liangs masterpiece THE 8 DIAGRAM POLE FIGHTER and the script had to be drastically altered. He was made famous beginning with two of the biggest HK hits of 74, HEROES TWO and MEN FROM THE MONASTERY.

Ti Lung & David Chiang-Two of the biggest stars of all time regardless of country. During the 70s no studio could touch Shaws and these two were two of the reasons why. Much was made in the HK tabloids that the two had a gay relationship which was never proven and they were both married although in some of there films like NEW ONE ARMED SWORDSMAN and THE ANONYMOUS HEROES they have very close relationships but then that was one of Chang Chehs cinematic conventions that John Woo and others learned from him. Brotherhood among men was most important. Some of you may remember Chiang from the Shaw-Hammer film LEGEND OF THE 7 GOLDEN VAMPIRES while Ti Lung was in SHATTER. These two were in some of the biggest budgeted HK films ever like SHAOLIN TEMPLE, 7 MAN ARMY and THE WATER MARGIN. Ti Lung also played Jackie Chans dad(even though he's only 7 years older than Chan)in DRUNKEN MASTER 2 called LEGEND OF DRUNKEN MASTER here.

The 5 Venoms-Hugely popular in the US among fans. One of Chang Chehs brainstorms was to produce a series of films using the same 5 actors in various roles. The Venoms consisted of Kuo Chui(who did choreography for BROTHERHOOD OF THE WOLF and TOMORROW NEVER DIES), Lo Mang, Sun Chien, Lu Feng and Chiang Sheng. In the film 5 VENOMS, a dying master sends his last student of the Poison Clan to find his 5 remaining pupils some of which are plotting to kill a classmate of there master and steal the gold made from the clan over the years. The only problem is that while the 5 students trained at different times, they wore masks that represented there styles-snake, centipede, lizard, scorpion and toad(an invincible style that rendered the practitioner invulnerable except for one weak spot that if hit would cause the fighter to lose his strength)so none but two knew each other. There's lots of intrigue, double crosses and rather unsettling torture devices used like the Iron Maiden and the Iron Coat as well as one poor soul who has a silver needle pushed through his nose to pierce his brain.

This film was a hit in HK in 1978 so other titles followed like KID WITH THE GOLDEN ARM, MAGNIFICENT RUFFIANS, CRIPPLED AVENGERS, HOUSE OF TRAPS, FLAG OF IRON and REBEL INTRUDERS. All the Venom films were very comic book in style and many of them carried a color motif. The Venom films were not as serious as Changs earlier work but concentrated more on the choreography and outlandish violence. Besides, Chang was in his 60s when he made these late 70s early 80s films so he was entitled to have a little fun by that time.


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on July 25, 2006, 04:32:17 PM
Many thanks once again AC,there is life after sw's! :)


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on August 19, 2006, 10:13:30 AM
August 2006 update:

Chato's land (1972)

You Know, I finally caught up with this again today MGM DVD, and in my earlier post I think I go it confused with Unzana's raid with Burt Lancaster, "Apache" with Burt Lancaster, and "Tell Then Willie Boy is Here" with Robert Blake. I don't remember this flick.

They have the same sort of situational sequences, but the story lines are different.

Chato's Land (1972) Dir. Michale Winner. Charles Bronson, Jack Palance, and a stable of very familiar character and TV actors,  Richard Basehart, Simon Oakland, Ralph Waite, and Victor French.

Shot in Almeria, with familiar landscapes, and some new ones. The setting is either West Texas or New Mexico, it never specifies, but there may be clues in the townsequences that I haven't caught.

Its that subcategory of Western that you'd call  a chase/manhunt.

Bronson looking cool as a half breed Apache Pardon Chato is acosted by a white sherrif in a saloon who says basicall in close to these words "no red niggers alowed to drink in here". Chato ignores the man. He moves around behind a stoic Chato and pulls his gun but Chato spins around and drops him. Chato leaves town.

The leading citizens of the town (Texas Hollywood) get ex Confederate Captain Quincey Whitmore to gather up some of his former soldiers and able men from the local ranches to hunt down Chato and hang him.

Plalance who dons his old CSA uniform tunic and hat out of a trunk is great in this role, he turns from a deterimed pursuer to a man concerened for his men once Chato turns the table on him, he is hampered by the blood lust of Jubal Hooker (Simon Oakland) who's blinded by revenge.

This film does a good job of depicting Natives and living off the land in desert environment. I thoroughly enjoyed the film. Its brutal and violent and unfortunately the R1 version is cut of a rape, and a shot through the hand from what I've heard. But its still that good and Bronson is impeccabe.

If you are going to collect Bronson Westerns these are my picks so far, OUTITW, Villa Rides, Red Sun, Chato's Land.

Fieldings score is adequate, but this is one aspect that probably 95% of Westerns suffer from.

Light years better than Shalako, it remindes me of "The Hunting Party" that I also picked up recently, thumbs up from me. 



Of the following lists  the A list contains SW's that deliver
that equal or almost up there quality. These films are worth getting and being part of your collection.

The "A" list of "Must Haves" so far in decending order (desending in quality from Leone the top five are very good are all equal, Sollima's Big Gundown being almost a Leone clone):

The Big Gundown (great)
The Mercenary (the best)
Companero''s (great)
Death Rides A Horse (great)
A Bullet For The General (great)
Run Man Run (great)
The Great Silence (great)
Cemetery Without Crosses (good)
Keoma (good)
Tepepa (good)
Day Of Anger (flawed)
Face To Face (flawed)


The "B" List (worthy efforts):

A Man Called Sledge (good but cut)
A Minute To Pray A Second to Die (ok but cut)
Mannaja A Man Called Blade (ok)
Blindman (tongue in cheek but inpsired lunacy)
And God Said To Cain (ok a spaghetti/suspence/gothic film that feels more like a made for TV film)

The not sure if they are classified as Spaghetti Westerns but likely Euro Westerns partially shot in Almeria List:

Villa Rides (great)
Renegade (great)
Chato's Land (great)
Red Sun (good)
The Hunting Party (ok)
Shalako (ok)
100 Rifles (ok)

In a class by itself but has SW influences

El Topo (good but very flawed)

To rent first before you buy if curious List*:

The Specialist (good, but way off the mark and very seriously flawed)
Man Pride Vengeance ("Carmen" Spaghetti Style)
The Grand Duel (flawed)
Four of the Apocalypse (flawed)
El Condor (need to see again)
Django (cool parts, dopey parts, dopey dubbing)
Price of Power (flawed)
Navajo Joe (flawed)
Four of the Apocalypse (flawed)
Beyond the Law (hohum)
Kill & Pray (dopey)
Captain Apache (the worst so far)
A Bullet For Sandoval (crappy VHS need to see again)
I am Sartana your Angel of Death (too dopey for me)
Bad Man's River (horrible)
White Comache (wose than Captian Apache)


*This list could probably go up into the 100''s but I''m not going to be inclined to watching many off the wall SW''s, if you drop in on the SW''s board you''ll hear about a lot of obscure titles.

Again Feel free to add or comment.




Impressive list Cigar Joe. 
Posted by: cigar joe  Posted on: July 23, 2006, 03:05:05 PM 
Insert Quote 
July 23 2006 update:

Watched "White Comanche" om TCM yesterday with William Shatner and Joseph Cotton, what a piece of crap, lol, and a horrible score to boot. Any way since there is no catagory for forgedabodit, try to rent first if you are dying to see Captian Kirk in a SW.


Of the following lists  the A list contains SW's that deliver
that equal or almost up there quality. These films are worth getting and being part of your collection.

The "A" list of "Must Haves" so far in decending order (desending in quality from Leone the top five are very good are all equal, Sollima's Big Gundown being almost a Leone clone):

The Big Gundown (great)
The Mercenary (the best)
Companero''s (great)
Death Rides A Horse (great)
A Bullet For The General (great)
Run Man Run (great)
The Great Silence (great)
Cemetery Without Crosses (good)
Keoma (good)
Tepepa (good)
Day Of Anger (flawed)
Face To Face (flawed)


The "B" List (worthy efforts):

A Man Called Sledge (good but cut)
A Minute To Pray A Second to Die (ok but cut)
Mannaja A Man Called Blade (ok)
Blindman (tongue in cheek but inpsired lunacy)
And God Said To Cain (ok a spaghetti/suspence/gothic film that feels more like a made for TV film)

The not sure if they are classified as Spaghetti Westerns but likely Euro Westerns partially shot in Almeria List:

Villa Rides (great)
Renegade (great)
Red Sun (good)
The Hunting Party (ok)
Shalako (ok)
100 Rifles (ok)

In a class by itself but has SW influences

El Topo (good but very flawed)

To rent first before you buy if curious List*:

The Specialist (good, but way off the mark and very seriously flawed)
Man Pride Vengeance ("Carmen" Spaghetti Style)
The Grand Duel (flawed)
Four of the Apocalypse (flawed)
El Condor (need to see again)
Django (cool parts, dopey parts, dopey dubbing)
Price of Power (flawed)
Navajo Joe (flawed)
Four of the Apocalypse (flawed)
Beyond the Law (hohum)
Kill & Pray (dopey)
Captain Apache (the worst so far)
A Bullet For Sandoval (crappy VHS need to see again)
I am Sartana your Angel of Death (too dopey for me)
Bad Man's River (horrible)
White Comache (wose than Captian Apache)


*This list could probably go up into the 100''s but I''m not going to be inclined to watching many off the wall SW''s, if you drop in on the SW''s board you''ll hear about a lot of obscure titles.

Again Feel free to add or comment.

 




Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Banjo on August 20, 2006, 07:49:12 AM
August 2006 update:
 if you drop in on the SW''s board you''ll hear about a lot of obscure titles.
But hopefully not forgetting Firecrackers excellent new thread for obscure sw's ::)

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=3802.0

and of course his "crappiest sw" guide ;D

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=2976.0


Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on October 28, 2006, 07:21:58 PM
Finally watched "El Condor" again after 30 + years and its not as bad as I remembered but its not great either, mostly for Lee Van Cleefs character Jaroo is it worth watching and for the charms of Marianna Hill ;-).

Also watched "Doc" an Almeria shot AW with Stacey Keach and Fay Dunaway that's has some good atmosphere but laking everywhere else.

Of the following lists  the A list contains SW's that deliver
that equal or almost up there quality. These films are worth getting and being part of your collection.

The "A" list of "Must Haves" so far in decending order (desending in quality from Leone the top five are very good are all equal, Sollima's Big Gundown being almost a Leone clone):

The Big Gundown (great)
The Mercenary (the best)
Companero''s (great)
Death Rides A Horse (great)
A Bullet For The General (great)
Run Man Run (great)
The Great Silence (great)
Cemetery Without Crosses (good)
Keoma (good)
Tepepa (good)
Day Of Anger (flawed)
Face To Face (flawed)


The "B" List (worthy efforts):

A Man Called Sledge (good but cut)
A Minute To Pray A Second to Die (ok but cut)
Mannaja A Man Called Blade (ok)
Blindman (tongue in cheek but inpsired lunacy)
And God Said To Cain (ok a spaghetti/suspence/gothic film that feels more like a made for TV film)

The not sure if they are classified as Spaghetti Westerns but likely Euro Westerns partially shot in Almeria List:

Villa Rides (great)
Renegade (great)
Red Sun (good)
The Hunting Party (ok)
Shalako (ok)
100 Rifles (ok)

In a class by itself but has SW influences

El Topo (good but very flawed)

To rent first before you buy if curious List*:

The Specialist (good, but way off the mark and very seriously flawed)
Man Pride Vengeance ("Carmen" Spaghetti Style)
The Grand Duel (flawed)
Four of the Apocalypse (flawed)
El Condor (good for Van Cleefs performance)
Django (cool parts, dopey parts, dopey dubbing)
Price of Power (flawed)
Navajo Joe (flawed)
Four of the Apocalypse (flawed)
Beyond the Law (hohum)
Doc (some atmosphere but little else)
Kill & Pray (dopey)
Captain Apache (the worst so far)
A Bullet For Sandoval (crappy VHS need to see again)
I am Sartana your Angel of Death (too dopey for me)
Bad Man's River (horrible)
White Comache (wose than Captian Apache)


*This list could probably go up into the 100''s but I''m not going to be inclined to watching many off the wall SW''s, if you drop in on the SW''s board you''ll hear about a lot of obscure titles.

Again Feel free to add or comment.



Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on March 31, 2007, 07:16:26 PM
Ok gonna dust this topic off since today I watched Corbucci's "The Hellbenders" (Il Crudeli -1967).

Got the Anchor Bay DVD off Amazon.com and sat down and watched this Joseph Cotton starring flick with Norma Bengell, Julian Mateos & Gino Pernice. It also has cameos by Benito Steffenelli, Aldo Sambrel, and Al Mulock.

This was a film that looked and felt very much like an American Western, though it did have SW twists. A Union Cavalry detachement is escorting a million dollars in old currency to be destroyed (burned). Joseph Cotton plays an ex Confederate officer determined to take the money and make a new start, resurrecting the Confederacy. So the story concerns the stealing of the money and the treck to get it to safety through a countryside swarming with soldiers and civilian posses all looking for the perpetrators. Cotton plays the part well.

This film is pretty much devoid of SW style standoff gunfights and derives most of its tension from the various encounters and twists in the plot. All this is very well done. The actors that play Cotton's sons could have used a bit more fleshing out but thats a minor quibble.

However its supposed to be just after the end of the Civil War and here the "curse of Leone" rears its head. Now I don't know about you but ever since I've seen GBU and the rest of Leone's work I've been effected by the "curse" which is Leone emphasized the weaponry and ever since I've paid attention to this particular aspect of all Westerns.

In Il Crudeli the ex Southerners of the "Hellbenders" Regiment are equiped with Winchesters. Ok in 1866 there were "Yellow Boy" Winchesters so you can over look this, but the six guns they carry are Colt 1873 Peacemakers, a big anachronisim, that could and should have been corrected, and is not easy to overlook. Other that this,  this film is entertaining but it could have been great. Morricone's score is average, nothing that memorable.

Al Mulock has the biggest part I've ever seen and he does an excellent job, and its worth a look for this alone.

Here is a film that could be remade with a slightly bigger budget and a better attention to accuracy, its a great story and I can see a modern version of this somewhere down the line if Westerns come into vogue again.

Its A list but flawed.

Of the following lists  the A list contains SW's that deliver
that equal or almost up there quality. These films are worth getting and being part of your collection.

The "A" list of "Must Haves" so far in decending order (desending in quality from Leone the top five are very good are all equal, Sollima's Big Gundown being almost a Leone clone):

The Big Gundown (great)
The Mercenary (the best)
Companero''s (great)
Death Rides A Horse (great)
A Bullet For The General (great)
Run Man Run (great)
The Great Silence (great)
Cemetery Without Crosses (good)
Keoma (good)
Tepepa (good)
Day Of Anger (flawed)
Face To Face (flawed)
The Hellbenders (flawed)


The "B" List (worthy efforts):

A Man Called Sledge (good but cut)
A Minute To Pray A Second to Die (ok but cut)
Mannaja A Man Called Blade (ok)
Blindman (tongue in cheek but inpsired lunacy)
And God Said To Cain (ok a spaghetti/suspence/gothic film that feels more like a made for TV film)

The not sure if they are classified as Spaghetti Westerns but likely Euro Westerns partially shot in Almeria List:

Villa Rides (great)
Renegade (great)
Red Sun (good)
The Hunting Party (ok)
Shalako (ok)
100 Rifles (ok)

In a class by itself but has SW influences

El Topo (good but very flawed)

To rent first before you buy if curious List*:

The Specialist (good, but way off the mark and very seriously flawed)
Man Pride Vengeance ("Carmen" Spaghetti Style)
The Grand Duel (flawed)
Four of the Apocalypse (flawed)
El Condor (good for Van Cleefs performance)
Django (cool parts, dopey parts, dopey dubbing)
Price of Power (flawed)
Navajo Joe (flawed)
Four of the Apocalypse (flawed)
Beyond the Law (hohum)
Doc (some atmosphere but little else)
Kill & Pray (dopey)
Captain Apache (the worst so far)
A Bullet For Sandoval (crappy VHS need to see again)
I am Sartana your Angel of Death (too dopey for me)
Bad Man's River (horrible)
White Comache (wose than Captian Apache)


*This list could probably go up into the 100''s but I''m not going to be inclined to watching many off the wall SW''s, if you drop in on the SW''s board you''ll hear about a lot of obscure titles.

Again Feel free to add or comment.



Title: Re: Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on June 22, 2009, 05:13:05 PM
Ok gonna dust this topic off once again since we have some new road apples

Of the following lists the A list contains SW's that In my personal opinion deliver
that equal or almost up there quality. These films are worth getting and being part of your collection.

The "A" list of "Must Haves" so far in descending order (descending in quality from Leone the top five are very good are all equal, Sollima's Big Gundown being almost a Leone clone):

The Big Gundown (great)
The Mercenary (the best)
Companero''s (great)
Death Rides A Horse (great)
A Bullet For The General (great)
Run Man Run (great)
The Great Silence (great)
Cemetery Without Crosses (good)
Keoma (good)
Tepepa (good)
Day Of Anger (flawed)
Face To Face (flawed)
The Hellbenders (flawed)


The "B" List (worthy efforts):

A Man Called Sledge (good but cut)
A Minute To Pray A Second to Die (ok but cut)
Mannaja A Man Called Blade (ok)
Blindman (tongue in cheek but inpsired lunacy)
And God Said To Cain (ok a spaghetti/suspence/gothic film that feels more like a made for TV film)

The not sure if they are classified as Spaghetti Westerns but likely Euro Westerns partially shot in Almeria List:


Chato's Land (great Bronson & Palance the international cut shows the rape scene and with it missing you miss the impact of the reason that Palance quits the chase)
Villa Rides (great)
Renegade (great)
Red Sun (good but flawed)
The Hunting Party (good almost great)
Shalako (ok)
100 Rifles (ok, probably the best Western for Brown, Reynolds & Welch)
China 9 Liberty 37 (good Fabio Testi, Warren Oates, Jenny Agutter)

In a class by itself but has SW influences

El Topo (good but very flawed)

To rent first before you buy if curious List*:

The Specialist (good, but way off the mark and very seriously flawed)
Man Pride Vengeance ("Carmen" Spaghetti Style not really a Western)
The Grand Duel (flawed)
Four of the Apocalypse (flawed)
El Condor (good for Van Cleef's performance check this one out for that, and the full frontal of Marianna Schell)
Django (cool parts, dopey parts, dopey dubbing)
Price of Power (flawed)
Navajo Joe (flawed)
Four of the Apocalypse (flawed)
Beyond the Law (hohum)
Doc ( crappy VHS version some atmosphere but little else really need to see the new DVD release and revise )
Kill & Pray (dopey)
Captain Apache (the worst so far)
A Bullet For Sandoval (crappy VHS need to see again)
I am Sartana your Angel of Death (too dopey for me)
Bad Man's River (horrible)
White Comache (wose than Captian Apache)
Sabata (thinking of if as an Italian Wild Wild West is the right frame of mind to watch this in you could probably say the same for the Sartana series)


*This list could probably go up into the 100''s but I''m not going to be inclined to watching many off the wall SW''s, if you drop in on the SW''s board you''ll hear about a lot of obscure titles.

Again Feel free to add or comment.


Title: Re: A Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: uncknown on June 23, 2009, 04:28:59 PM
anyone have the new updated version?
would be interested what he has to sat , if anything, about the restored GBU & BIG GUNDOWN


Title: Re: A Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on June 23, 2009, 04:56:29 PM
I have both updated versions of GBU with the cut scenes as extras in Italian and the SE Box set with the added scenes redubbed by Eastwood & Wallach. I like the additions but don't like the dubbing they should have used voice actors for Wallach & Eastwood also (but I do remember Kermit saying they could have electronically altered their voices to sound young again by some method he explained) I also don't like the new 5:1 Dolby they should have stayed with the original gunshots.

As far as The Big Gundown I have FrancoCleefs restoration, so I'm not familiar with the new The Big Gundown release.


Title: Re: A Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: Novecento on June 24, 2009, 04:13:44 PM
The "A" list of "Must Haves" so far in descending order (descending in quality from Leone the top five are very good are all equal, Sollima's Big Gundown being almost a Leone clone):

I'd promote Navajo Joe, Price of Power, and possibly Django and The Specialist, to the A-list over Face To Face, Hellbenders, and possibly Keoma and Day of Anger.

How about some Colizzis?


Title: Re: A Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on June 24, 2009, 07:57:46 PM
Quote
I'd promote Navajo Joe, Price of Power, and possibly Django and The Specialist, to the A-list over Face To Face, Hellbenders, and possibly Keoma and Day of Anger.

How about some Colizzis?

Not on my A list.

Navajo Joe has Navajos who traditionally live in hogans living in tipis, "Navajo" joe himself wears a leather outfit that resembles a bandleaders costume. He should be dressed in traditional cotton clothing, who the F wears leather in the Southwest???? For anybody who knows anything about Native Americans in the Southwest the film becomes a Farce. The best thing its got going for it is Morricone's score

Price of Power I don't care for Gemma, he reminds me too much of American actor Audie Murphy, the film has some good sequences but as a whole as a concept about the kennedy assassination it just doesn't grab me.

Django is an important film for the genre, but it just gets a bit too dopey for me, don't care for the dubbing or the sawdust quicksand, or the red hoods.

The Specialist also has some good parts but some very bad parts, don't need hippies, don't believe the magical mithril bullet deflecting vest, and I'm insulted by the shot of the castle at the end.

Colizzi's I think I've just seen one it was ok but not really A list not very memorable to me anyway.


Title: Re: A Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: uncknown on June 26, 2009, 05:14:16 PM
I have both updated versions of GBU with the cut scenes as extras in Italian and the SE Box set with the added scenes redubbed by Eastwood & Wallach. I like the additions but don't like the dubbing they should have used voice actors for Wallach & Eastwood also (but I do remember Kermit saying they could have electronically altered their voices to sound young again by some method he explained) I also don't like the new 5:1 Dolby they should have stayed with the original gunshots.

As far as The Big Gundown I have FrancoCleefs restoration, so I'm not familiar with the new The Big Gundown release.

i meant does the BOOK have any comments


Title: Re: A Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on June 26, 2009, 05:51:08 PM
Quote
i meant does the BOOK have any comments

You mean "A Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns"?

I haven't written it yet,  :D O0


Title: Re: A Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: titoli on June 26, 2009, 07:33:40 PM
CJ, where do you put John the Bastard?


Title: Re: A Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on June 26, 2009, 08:03:10 PM
Rent first and make up your own mind  O0


Title: Re: A Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns
Post by: uncknown on June 26, 2009, 08:14:23 PM
You mean "A Leone Lover's Guide To Other Spaghetti Westerns"?

I haven't written it yet,  :D O0


watt dont you fookin'understand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!