Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => Once Upon A Time In The West => Topic started by: dave jenkins on November 12, 2004, 05:08:55 PM



Title: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on November 12, 2004, 05:08:55 PM
We all know that Leone quoted from many of his favorite westerns in OUATITW. For example, the opening set piece clearly references the bad guys waiting for the train in High Noon.

According to Frayling, "there were about thirty references to other Hollywood Westerns--confirmed by at least one of the participants in the pre-production meetings."

Frayling lists some of the "30" :

The Iron Horse
Shane
Pursued
The Searchers
Run of the Arrow
Winchester 73
Johnny Guitar
Warlock
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
Man of the West
Man Without a Star
Rio Bravo
Western Union
Jubal
The Magnificent Seven
The Last Sunset

Even if these are correctly identified (and I have reservations for some, like Warlock), this list is considerably shy of 30. Cumbow, in his book Once Upon A Time, has some of the above but also others, including:

Gunfight at the OK Corral
3:10 to Yuma
Last Train from Gun Hill

He also mentions a Michael Curtiz Western, The Comcheros, which has John Wayne using the alias "McBain" , and the appearance of a town named Sweetwater.

Can anyone identify other Westerns referenced in OUATITW? Better still, direct quotations? And are all the references cited above valid (I have not seen all the movies mentioned)?


Title: Re:30 Westerns in Once
Post by: grandpa_chum on November 12, 2004, 05:51:34 PM
i can confirm the commancheros thing... not sure if it qualifies as a reference but the main character uses the identity of a man named mcbain... a dead man who was rich and prosperous... and sweetwater plays a pretty big part... so there are some similarities...

the only reference to 3:10 to yuma is that the whole conversation between keenan wynn and cheyenne about sending him to a new prison being built in Yuma is basically lifted right out of 3:10 to yuma... but then again how different can a discussion about sending a man to jail be... GREAT GREAT  movie btw... i recommend it second only to high noon from this list.

The shane, iron horse, johnny guitar, and the man who shot liberty valance references are pretty obvious and definitly there... in shane a man leaves a woman, and some annoying kid, behind in basically the same way bronson does with his "someday" scene, the train shots from iron horse of course, the town meeting scene is the point of reference for the town auction and is probably considered a reference more because it's known to be one of leone's favorites and not as much because of actual similarities... but there are some.... johnny guitar i don't remember, but trust me, i do remember watching it and saying "wow, that is pretty obvious"...

The only thing that references the searchers is supposedly the scene where jill is visited by a harmonica playing in the wind at night and she grabs a gun... i don't get it...

High Noon also has to do with the gun and the clock... and the "noon already" line by bronson

And i believe i remember reading something about the 1 dollar in the drink to refuse an offer in the saloon scene having something to do with gunfight at the OK corrall... but i don't remember... i've never seen it.


Title: Re:30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on November 12, 2004, 09:13:49 PM

The only thing that references the searchers is supposedly the scene where jill is visited by a harmonica playing in the wind at night and she grabs a gun... i don't get it...


Cumbow says the slaughter of the McBain family references the raid on the homestead in The Searchers and there are actually direct quotations: the birds flying up from the brush as prelude, and "the small child looking up apprehensively but bravely at the subjective-camera adult intruder."

Thanks for the info on the other films. I'll have to take another look at OK Corral today.....


Title: Re:30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on November 13, 2004, 06:52:33 AM
Johnny Guitar has a small model of a town (like in OUTITW) that Joan Crawford's character hopes will be built around her saloon when the railroad comes through.


Title: Re:30 Westerns in Once
Post by: grandpa_chum on November 13, 2004, 01:42:23 PM
Cumbow says the slaughter of the McBain family references the raid on the homestead in The Searchers and there are actually direct quotations: the birds flying up from the brush as prelude, and "the small child looking up apprehensively but bravely at the subjective-camera adult intruder."

Your right... that is a pretty obvious reference... guess i missed it... or was at least looking in the wrong spot.


Title: Re:30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on November 14, 2004, 04:15:44 PM
Watched Gunfight at the OK Corral this weekend and didn't spot a scene with a dollar in a shot glass. Nor did I see anything that put me in OUATITW. I'm beginning to wonder if OK Corral actually is referenced by Leon. Anybody have any thoughts?


Title: Re:30 Westerns in Once
Post by: grandpa_chum on November 14, 2004, 04:37:51 PM
could be something very minute that doesn't really even count as a reference


Title: Re:30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cowboy-cine on November 27, 2004, 11:57:17 PM
Check out Peckinpah's Ride the High Country. Ends with Joel McCrea catching a few slugs in the gut and asking his partner, Randolph Scott, to turn away and not watch him die.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Jupa on January 05, 2005, 02:13:43 PM
Ok,so thus far we have Comancheros,3:10 to Yuma,Shane,Iron Horse,the Searchers,Johnny Guitar,Ride the High Country and High Noon.That makes eight,so we''re still far from 30.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on January 05, 2005, 04:47:50 PM
Off topic, On a side note in The Bravados Gregory Peck after the men that raped and killed his wife, one of the "baddies" is Lee Van Cleef, as he confronts each man he opens his pocket watch to show a pic of his dead wife.... now where have we seen this before?

Also watching Red River as I type, and the coyote howl that we hear in GBU is duplicated from this film.

So I think there is going to be some very small quotes like dave mentions that we may be passing over.

I think instead of "Gunfight at the OK Corral" its supposed to be in "My Darling Clementine", The Jack Elam fly sequence is supposed to be a rerun of Buster Keaton''s butterfly gag in "The Paleface".


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on January 15, 2005, 09:45:54 AM
Ok more, Johnny Guitar also has the "good cup of coffee" line by Sterling Hayden.

Here is a small one for you Dave, and a new entry, near the end of Red River in Abeline Kansas Montgomery Cliff's character meets up with his girlfriend in a Hotel room he takes off his hat and brushes against an oil lamp hanging from the cieling, the shadow rises and falls as the two embrace, in this film its nothing, in Leone's hands it becomes iconic.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on January 16, 2005, 10:40:27 PM

Here is a small one for you Dave, and a new entry, near the end of Red River in Abeline Kansas Montgomery Cliff's character meets up with his girlfriend in a Hotel room he takes off his hat and brushes against an oil lamp hanging from the cieling, the shadow rises and falls as the two embrace, in this film its nothing, in Leone's hands it becomes iconic.
Thanks, I'm gonna take another look at RR tonight!


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: KERMIT on January 18, 2005, 03:01:42 AM
Ok,so thus far we have Comancheros,3:10 to Yuma,Shane,Iron Horse,the Searchers,Johnny Guitar,Ride the High Country and High Noon.That makes eight,so we''re still far from 30.
who could forget "TERROR IN A TEXAS TOWN " ?  :o


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on January 18, 2005, 04:42:03 AM
What did they use from Terror in a Texas Town Kermit? I've never seen this one.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on February 08, 2005, 09:48:08 PM
Finally saw 3:10 to Yuma. An interesting film that starts out strong but gets stupid as it goes along. Still, from the perspective of a Leoneaste, it is fascinating, and as far as this thread is concerned, represents a motherlode of references.  There may be more quotations from it in OUATITW than from any other single film.

Before enumerating them, I should point out some general effects that Leone used not only in OUATITW but throughout his career. One is a particular shot of horses from the pov of a driver on a buckboard or coach; we see this used in GBU between the time Tuco and Blondie leave the mission and before they are captured by the blue bellies. We see  a very similar shot in OUATITW on the drive from Flagstone to the trading post. The antecedent for these is a shot in 3:10 near the very beginning of the film when a stagecoach is held up by Glenn Ford and his gang.

Ford uses cattle to impede the progress of the coach, and the steers kick up a lot of dust. This gives the director, Delmer Daves, the opportunity to present something that would later become a signature Leone shot: men emerging from clouds of dust. GBU and OUATITW both include such shots, but Daves did it earlier.

Also, Daves uses a *lot* of crane shots, maybe even more than the master himself. He even uses what we might call a reverse crane shot: intead of beginning close to the actors and moving away, he sometimes begins high above and then swoops down for a closeup.

Now for some of the references specific to OUATITW. The most obvious one is the casting-against-type of the bad guy. Long before Fonda's Frank, there was Glenn Ford as a cold-hearted killer. Even though this didn't work very well (Daves establishes Ford's ruthlessness early on, but for the rest of the picture Ford defaults to his usual on-screen persona), it is an attempt to put an actor associated exclusively with good-guy parts in the role of a baddie.

Another nod to Daves is the use of music in OATITW. Particular themes recur, sometimes under a scene (available to the audience, but not to the characters)and sometimes within the scene (the characters can hear or even create the music). Both films employ a character associated with a certain piece of music performing that very piece of music: OUATITW has The Man With the Harmonica, and 3:10 has The Man With the Puckered Lips (Ford whistles the theme while semi-reclining, his hat pulled down over his eyes).

Then there is the plan in OUATITW to ship a captive outlaw to Yuma as a safety measure, the exact situation of 3:10.

Finally, the biggest quote of 3:10 in OUATITW is Frank's dangerous walk down the streets of Flagstone. In 3:10 Van Heflin must also negotiate a street overwatched by ambushers, and there is even a moment when a spotter (Henry Jones) shouts out a warning that enables Heflin to down a gunman before he is shot (followed by the appropriate stunt work). There are differences, of course (the spotter is in the street and Heflin, at that point, is up on the second floor of a building), but you only need to watch this sequence once to know what inspired Leone's similar (but much superior) scene.

These are the quotations that leapt out at me on my first viewing of 3:10. No doubt more can be found......


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: KERMIT on February 08, 2005, 11:48:25 PM
What did they use from Terror in a Texas Town Kermit? I've never seen this one.
ever see a bad guy in black boots, hat, horse ? bad guy is closet whuss wearing two guns being "called out" by a pissed off sterling hayden. the guy in black gets the point when hayden harpoons him in front of the entire town. quite possible bad guy was worst dressed, slowest draw in the west.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on February 09, 2005, 04:10:29 AM
Good work Dave.
And Kerm, lol, I'll have to catch Terror in a Texas Town (I've seen it in the cheapie bin at FYE).


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on February 14, 2005, 10:29:59 PM
Just watched My Darling Clementine again and noticed a couple things that SL may have taken for use in OUATITW. First, the scene when Wyatt Earp (Fonda) first meets Doc Holiday (Victor Mature). They do a bit of verbal sparring while standing at a saloon bar, and when it looks like things are going to get deadly serious a gun is quickly slid down the bar to the unarmed Wyatt. Wyatt is able to defuse the situation without violence.

Even more significant is Ford's use of music, or lack thereof, especially when we get to the big scene at the OK Corral.   Scott Eyman, in his book _John Ford: The Searcher 1894-1973_, makes this comment: "in a particular masterstroke, the climactic gunfight is played without blaring music, but with only natural sounds--wind; boots scuffling for purchase in the sand. The silence is haunting."

Huh. Put anybody in mind of another scene in another Western?


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on March 19, 2005, 07:06:31 AM
I have seen "Rio Bravo" a number of times, and I see only the most superficial similarities with OUATITW, if any at all.  Could somebody point out to me what exactly constitutes a reference from that film?  And same with "Winchester '73".  The scene at the trading post really isn't at all like the one in "Winchester '73", so I wouldn't say that it's a reference.  And I agree with Dave Jenkins that the reference to "Warlock" cited by Frayling may be apocryphal.  Other than that Leone was a fan of that film, I don't see anything that would've been incorporated into OUATITW.

How about "Duel In The Sun"?  On the DVD commentary track, Sheldon Hall states that Leone based the character of Morton off Lionel Barrymore in "Duel of the Sun", and that seems like a pretty solid reference to me.

And "The Last Sunset"?  Bertolucci has stated that the final duel between Frank and Harmonica is an almost shot-for-shot replica of that film's equivalent scene, between Kirk Douglas and Rock Hudson.  (The scene also featured one of the gunfighters having an empty gun.)  I have not actually seen that film, though at least there's some evidence to back it up.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on March 19, 2005, 06:08:19 PM
I think some of Fraylings "quotes" are misatributed, I was just re-reading today "Something to do With Death" and Frayling was talking about the quote from Rio Bravo, its when Blondie and Tuco walk down each side of the street in GBU not OUTITW, after Angel Eye's gang which quotes John Wayne and Dean Martin patroling the street in Rio Bravo.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on March 19, 2005, 07:24:47 PM
I think some of Fraylings "quotes" are misatributed, I was just re-reading today "Something to do With Death" and Frayling was talking about the quote from Rio Bravo, its when Blondie and Tuco walk down each side of the street in GBU not OUTITW, after Angel Eye's gang which quotes John Wayne and Dean Martin patroling the street in Rio Bravo.

If it's in re GBU, it makes considerably more sense.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on April 05, 2005, 04:21:48 PM
I think also that the "Western Union" reference is questionable.  The movie does contain a scene of Dean Jagger's character, having been

kicked in the ribs and left for dead, crawling towards a puddle of water and collapsing (e.g. Morton's death).  But I'm not 100% sure this

constitutes a reference.

Also Frayling's so-called "reference" to "Pursued" was that Maureen sings "Danny Boy" right before the massacre.  Sorry, Chris, I don't think

that's quite enough to go on for sure (unless Leone and Co. have confirmed it).

Here is a list (based on my own observations, and those of some of the users here) of references:

Definitely or Almost Definitely Intentional:
- High Noon
- 3:10 To Yuma
- Johnny Guitar
- The Searchers
- Shane
- Ride The High Country
- The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
- Duel In The Sun
- The Last Sunset
- My Darling Clementine
- The Paleface
- The Comancheros
- The Magnificent Seven
- The Iron Horse
- Fort Apache
- For A Few Dollars More (I know it's one of Leone's own films but I just had to include it  ;D)

Possible, Could Go Either Way
- Western Union
- Ace In The Hole
- Jubal
- High Sierra
- Farewell, My Lovely
- Run of the Arrow
- Man From The West
- Man Without A Star
- Red River

Cited as a "Reference", But Almost Certainly Not:
- Warlock
- Rio Bravo
- Gunfight At The O.K. Corral
- Winchester '73
- Pursued
- Last Train From Gun Hill

So, assuming all of those are real references, that's thirty-one; however, keep in mind a) a lot of these are questionable, and quite likely apocryphal, and b) that several of those films are not actually Westerns.

BTW, does anyone else think that Maureen McBain = Maureen O'Hara? 


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on April 05, 2005, 05:14:08 PM
Winchester 73's refrence was suposed to be Lionel Stander's trading post. Warlock suposedly referenced by Cheyenne's search for his mother. I'd almost have to catch them again to check.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on April 06, 2005, 04:01:35 PM
Winchester 73's refrence was suposed to be Lionel Stander's trading post. Warlock suposedly referenced by Cheyenne's search for his mother. I'd almost have to catch them again to check.

I think I said above, I don't think either of those references are really close enough to be considered as such, though Frayling listed them.

Derringdo, I think your "O.K. Corral" thing is a stretch, though I haven't seen that film in awhile so I can't comment too well.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on April 06, 2005, 05:02:57 PM
Groggy, well done. My hat, if I had one, would be off to you.

The interesting thing about _Pursued_ is that although it doesn't seem to be quoted in OUATITW, it most definitely is referenced in Death Rides a Horse.

We have a whole lot of classic westerns arriving on DVD soon, so we'll all get a chance to turn up other references, I'm sure. I'm particularly looking forward to seeing _Jubal_ in anamorphic widescreen............


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on April 06, 2005, 10:06:28 PM
Warlock suposedly referenced by Cheyenne's search for his mother.

The big problem here is that Frayling never bothers to sell us on the idea of Cheyenne's search for his mother. A couple of references to her constitutes a "search"? Not in my book. Needless to say, without such a fanciful reading, there is nothing to connect OUATITW with Warlock (except maybe for the presence of Fonda in both films).


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on April 07, 2005, 03:26:28 AM
Where are you getting Jubal from?


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on April 07, 2005, 04:04:01 PM
Where are you getting Jubal from?

I'm citing Frayling, that's why I put in one of the "questionable" categories.  Frayling said that Cheyenne's line about patting Jill's backside was from that.  I haven't personally seen "Jubal", which is why I can't confirm it.  If you have, you probably have more authority to comment than I do.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on April 07, 2005, 04:06:58 PM
The big problem here is that Frayling never bothers to sell us on the idea of Cheyenne's search for his mother. A couple of references to her constitutes a "search"? Not in my book. Needless to say, without such a fanciful reading, there is nothing to connect OUATITW with Warlock (except maybe for the presence of Fonda in both films).

As I said above, I also think that this could be in part of the fact that Leone cited "Warlock" as one of his favorite films.  While the "Liberty Valance" references, as relatively vague as they are, can be pretty well confirmed, I see virtually nothing to connect "Warlock" to OUATITW, except that Leone was a fan.  So, go figure.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on April 07, 2005, 05:31:05 PM
Frayling said that Cheyenne's line about patting Jill's backside was from that.  I haven't personally seen "Jubal", which is why I can't confirm it.  If you have, you probably have more authority to comment than I do.
I have seen Jubal, just once. There is a bit about Borgnine slapping his wife's backside as a mark of affection, but Ford puts him straight about his wife not liking it. I don't recall Ernie making any remark about the practice, he does it more or less unthinkingly. The fanny slapping is supposed to be an indicator of how boorish Ernie is. Needless to say, this is exactly the opposite of the way the activity is presented in OUATITW.

Perhaps Leone was not quoting from Jubal as such, but was responding to Glenn Ford's representation of gentlemanly virtues with a male Italian's take on the subject.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on April 07, 2005, 08:03:55 PM
No I meant where are you purchasing "Jubal" from  ;D


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on April 07, 2005, 10:42:19 PM
No I meant where are you purchasing "Jubal" from  ;D
Hadn't really thought about it. Amazon has it for a little over 11 bucks...........


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on April 09, 2005, 03:31:28 PM
In re "Warlock", I happened to catch the last hour of it on AMC today, and there were two things which might have been used in OUATITW:

1) There's a scene where Henry Fonda's character kicks out a cripple's crutches from under him.  Done in a very different context, to be sure, but since he did the exact same thing to Mr. Morton, maybe Leone was thinking of that scene?

2) Also, during the "showdown" between Fonda and Richard Widmark, Fonda wears virtually the same outfit - dark blue jacket with a black shirt and black hat - as he does in OUATITW.  The only major difference is a gold watch chain hanging from his breast pocket.

Just a few minor observations.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on April 10, 2005, 09:42:34 PM
Groggy, good work. I guess we should keep Warlock on the list..........


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on April 13, 2005, 04:21:15 AM
Ok Caught "The Paleface" yesterday on TCM (they were doing a salute to Buster Keaton), and saw the "reference" to the fly sequence in OUATITW.

Its right at the beginning.

The Set up: An oil company swindels a tribe out of their land, the chief finds out and orders his warriors to kill the first white man that comes in that gate (what a gate  and fence is doing in an indian village is irrelavent, lol). Of course who comes through the gate but Buster Keaton with a butterfly net collecting specimens, lol. So he is annoyed by a butterfly that is obviously tied on a string that bounces up and down he finnally swings at it with his fist. Then he goes right into the village and captures a fly in his net. Not not of a reference, but ypou can see howe much Leone got out of it.

One thing to note that I discovered by watching the documentary on Keaton was that he really filled is period pieces with a lot of historical details some articles were so authentic recreations that they were donated to the Smithsonian Museum.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on April 18, 2005, 12:55:29 AM
I watched the new DVD of Jubal (the transfer is okay, nothing exceptional). I didn't see much that put me in mind of OUATITW, except for the fact that Bronson shows up as a mysterious stranger who helps Glenn Ford out. But because Ford is the hero, Bronson is nothing more than a sidekick and doesn't get all that much screen time. Still, a shrewd director watching the film might have gotten the idea of giving Bronson a starring role in a Western.........


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on April 18, 2005, 03:59:10 PM
Also, Woody Strode's rifle at the beginning (and I know this has been commented on before) is identical to John Wayne's in "Rio Bravo".


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on April 21, 2005, 05:06:51 PM
Okay, did some more digging, and here's the "Ace In The Hole" reference (the belt and suspenders line), spoken by Kirk Douglas's character:

Quote
I've done a lot of lying in my time. I've lied to men who wear belts. I've lied to men who wear suspenders. But I'd never be so stupid as to lie to a man who wears both belt and suspenders.


This is pretty close to Frank's line, but I agree with Frayling that it's more likely that it was a self-effacing dig by Leone (or Donati) on his own dress habits.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on April 21, 2005, 08:12:27 PM
But it could be BOTH a movie reference and a personal reference. Like the opening of DYS, where Juan pisses on the ants: the image may refer to a practice in Leone's childhood (as Frayling contends) but it also HAS TO allude to the opening of The Wild Bunch as well (don't tell me Leone didn't see TWB). A single element in a creative work can carry multiple associations, and there is no reason to fix on one to the exclusion of others.

Good work, Groggy. I've never seen AITH and I had a good laugh when I read that line.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: grandpa_chum on April 26, 2005, 11:45:21 AM
you know i never thought of the ant pissing scene in regards to the wild bunch... i know it was a analogy for the revolution... but the ants took out the scorpion, now the revolution is taking care of the ants.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on May 19, 2005, 02:59:12 AM
So I'm over at dvdbeaver, checking out screen captures of the new Fox Westerns DVDs, all films I've never seen before, and.........on Samuel Fuller's _40 Guns_, is that a tight close-up of a pair of eyes in a Cinemascope aspect ratio that I see?


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on May 23, 2005, 05:49:09 PM
Yup, I took a look at Forty Guns this weekend and it certainly has a couple of Two Beeg Green Eyes shots (although it's in black and white, so we can't really tell what color Barry Sullivan's eyes are). Sergio used his ultra close close-ups in Cinemascope better, but he must have been inspired to use them in the first place by Fuller's film.

Also, I notice that the title appears over the last shot at the end of Forty Guns; this was probably not the first film ever to do that, but this may have given Leone the idea for putting up "OUATITW" at the end.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on May 24, 2005, 04:03:39 PM
I doubt it's a reference, but . . . in "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance", in the scene where Valance and Co. beat up Edmond O'Brien in his newspaper office, notice how Valance and his thugs appear after O'Brien turns up the gas lantern.  Again, I doubt it's a direct reference, but it put me in mind of the swinging lantern in the saloon scene.

I think the concrete reference to "Liberty Valance" in OUATITW is that Valance and his gang are wearing duster coats during their robbery of the stagecoach with Jimmy Stewart.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on May 26, 2005, 09:17:17 PM
Groggy, Cigar Joe posted earlier about the swinging lantern originating in Red River, and that does seem the likelier candidate. Good call, though,  on the dusters in TMWSLV.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Huey on June 04, 2005, 09:53:37 AM
I once read that the scene where Frank is left sitting alone in the saloon before getting up to go outside, with a gunfight inevitable, is a take on the finale to The Gunfighter, an excellent but perhaps under-rated film starring Gregory Peck.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: grandpa_chum on June 05, 2005, 09:13:17 PM
oh the gunfighter is incredibly under rated, it's one of my favorite american westerns


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on June 08, 2005, 07:28:52 PM
I got my copy of the new Frayling book, Once Upon a Time in Italy, which has lots of cool poster art and a bunch of interviews. One item that is sure to interest readers of this thread is a 5-page chart entitled "Leone's Citations of American Westerns." In the left-hand column you get a description of something that occurs in OUATITW, and on the right side info about the film or films that are supposedly being referenced. I say "supposedly," because some elements don't really seem to match. BTW, Frayling doesn't claim that this is his take on the references; he leaves the responsibility with Bertolucci, Argento, and Donati, whom he interviewed on the subject.

An example of something that doesn't seem to match is as follows. When Jill asks Sam why they are stopping at the trading post, Sam replies "Don't the trains stop?" This is supposedly a reference to: "_Dodge City_... In the opening sequences, a buggy races against a locomotive, and Colonel Dodge contentedly observes, 'Iron men and iron horses--that's progress.'"

Huh?

Sometimes, however, the chart makes sense. It observes, for example, that there is an auction scene in How the West Was Won where a character played by Debbie Reynolds has to sell an expensive mansion for a song. Later, Reynolds is shown traveling through Monument Valley with the Prescott family in a four-wheel buggy with a horse called Sam. Okay, I can see that one.

So, the chart, while interesting, is very hit or miss.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on June 09, 2005, 04:13:38 AM
cool I'll have to pick that up.


Title: Re: Frayling book
Post by: Cusser on June 09, 2005, 12:45:10 PM
I got my copy of Frayling's new book this week, but haven't had time tocrack it open yet.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on June 10, 2005, 10:57:02 PM
Iti s interesting that Leone, in his interview in Frayling's SL:OUATII, makes a point of saying how much he liked Warlock, and then in the Vincenzoni interview that guy goes so far as to claim Warlock was actually L's favorite Western. More study of this film may be required.........


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on August 06, 2005, 06:20:33 PM
I have long been puzzled by a couple of shots in the final flashback of OUATITW.

Harmonica's brother is about to be hanged, and the montage gives us a shot/reverse shot sequence depicting the exchange between the brother and Frank. Suddenly, we see close-ups of members of Frank's gang (one is eating a piece of fruit). We do not know who these men are, we have never even seen them before (except in long shot), and they will not show up again. They really have nothing to do with the plot, but provide a certain ambience that (perhaps) only on-lookers can supply.

The sudden introduction of the faces of the gang members is striking and, as I said, somewhat hard to account for. Recently, however, watching The Quiet Man (on AMC) I saw something very similar occur in THAT film's one flashback scene. John Wayne is back in his corner, while the man he has killed lies motionless on the mat. We cut back and forth between Wayne and the prone body. Suddenly we get closeups of onlookers: perhaps a trainer, other ring personnel; we don't really know because, again, these are people who are never introduced and never appear again.

Perhaps Ford did this in other places, but I was struck by the fact the Leone not only copied this technique, he used it, as Ford had done, in a flashback.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Alan Shearer 9 on August 29, 2005, 09:34:19 PM
Just saw Rio Bravo and I couldn't spot anything. If I remember correctly Woody's rifle is a sawn off and Wayne's gun in Rio Bravo isn't, so I wouldn't even say that was a reference


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: grandpa_chum on August 30, 2005, 12:39:26 AM
I have long been puzzled by a couple of shots in the final flashback of OUATITW.

Harmonica's brother is about to be hanged, and the montage gives us a shot/reverse shot sequence depicting the exchange between the brother and Frank. Suddenly, we see close-ups of members of Frank's gang (one is eating a piece of fruit). We do not know who these men are, we have never even seen them before (except in long shot), and they will not show up again. They really have nothing to do with the plot, but provide a certain ambience that (perhaps) only on-lookers can supply.

The sudden introduction of the faces of the gang members is striking and, as I said, somewhat hard to account for. Recently, however, watching The Quiet Man (on AMC) I saw something very similar occur in THAT film's one flashback scene. John Wayne is back in his corner, while the man he has killed lies motionless on the mat. We cut back and forth between Wayne and the prone body. Suddenly we get closeups of onlookers: perhaps a trainer, other ring personnel; we don't really know because, again, these are people who are never introduced and never appear again.

Perhaps Ford did this in other places, but I was struck by the fact the Leone not only copied this technique, he used it, as Ford had done, in a flashback.

That is a fascinating thought that I never thought of... I mean I always loved those two flashbacks... in fact I've made it clear a number of times, maybe on different boards, that the quiet man flashback is by far the best flashback I've ever seen not in a leone film of course, and individually I loved the close-ups of the onlookers in both of those flashbacks but never put two and two together that they were similar, in fact I never really even knew why I adored the sequence so much, but that explaination really caps it, they create this feeling during an epic event, they are nameless faces given star-like attention, it's really brilliant in both of those flashbacks, added in pace with morricone's beat in one and the flashing of the photographers bulb in the other, pure brilliance in editing.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: rex on September 14, 2005, 10:53:11 AM
Here's a reference that isn't specific to OUATITW but that I think is important to Leone and the Dollars movies. The music in "Gunfight at O.K. Corral" has a lot of whistling in it. Very reminiscent of Alessandro's work in Fistful, etc.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on July 10, 2006, 10:25:33 AM
For a change, here's a Western that references OUATITW: The Train Robbers (1973). This was on AMC last weekend and I watched the beginning which goes like this: A semi-deserted train station platform: no music, only the sound of the wind and the things the wind causes to make noise: three men ride up to join the man already waiting for a train (and its passenger) that is a day late........

From there things go downhill rapidly, entertainment-wise, but the nod to SL is kinda fun.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on July 31, 2006, 09:04:11 AM
Anyone seen Firecreek? Supposedly, Hank Fonda does a turn in it as a proto-Frank type villain. It's out on DVD in R1 on 8/15, so I thought I'd give it a look.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Tim on July 31, 2006, 11:40:49 AM
  Firecreek is a good western, with great roles for Fonda and Jimmy Stewart.  And while Fonda does play the bad guy, I wouldn't compare him to Frank on an evilness-scale.  His gang on the otherhand....

  Good western to pick up if you haven't seen it.  Kinda similar to High Noon, with a sheriff finally snapping and having to defend his town while the townspeople cower in fear, or at least most of them.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on July 31, 2006, 05:33:16 PM
Seriously doubt it's a direct reference, but I watched "Doctor Zhivago" again today and I noticed a crane shot pretty much identical to one in OUATITW.  When Zhivago is captured by the Red Partisans and they ride off into the forest, the camera pans up slowly as the music reaches a climax to reveal a simply huge forest.  Reminded me of the crane shot revealing Flagstone in OUATITW.  I'm not saying it's a reference, but I found it interesting that the two shots in question were practically identical. 

Also, during the massacre of the White soldiers in the field, the panning down of the camera until the machine gun barrel pops into frame also reminded me of Leone, GBU in particular, with guns suddenly sliding into frame.  If you've seen "Zhivago" and GBU you know what I mean.  Again, I doubt it's a reference, but it's a neat thing to pick up on.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on August 01, 2006, 02:25:35 PM
Seriously doubt it's a direct reference, but I watched "Doctor Zhivago" again today and I noticed a crane shot pretty much identical to one in OUATITW.  When Zhivago is captured by the Red Partisans and they ride off into the forest, the camera pans up slowly as the music reaches a climax to reveal a simply huge forest.  Reminded me of the crane shot revealing Flagstone in OUATITW.  I'm not saying it's a reference, but I found it interesting that the two shots in question were practically identical. 
I have no doubt that Lean influenced Leone. In this case, though, both directors may have been thinking back to one of the most famous crane shots in cinema history: the slow reveal of massive Confederate casualties in Gone With the Wind.

An intereting side project would be to do a systematic comparison between Lean and Leone. Every time I watch the scene in DYS shot in Azucareza San Torcuato, Gaudix (the disused sugar factory where firing squads execute victims in long concrete trenches) I think of Lean, although I'm not sure why.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on August 01, 2006, 04:32:05 PM
You're probably right about "Gone With The Wind", as I've said I haven't seen it myself.

But I can see what you said earlier about their editing schemes, the match being blown out/desert in "Lawrence" etc. has quite a few equivalents in Leone's films, particularly OUATITW, which is absolutely full of such edits.  One device Lean likes to use is sound from the next scene being played over the old scene before the cut, I don't recall if Leone ever used that device.  Lean also deals with violence in a very sparse way (at least I think so), i.e. there's a lot of build-up to the battle scenes in "Lawrence" for instance but none of them last for more than a minute or two.  Also trains are very prominent in the work of both directors, for whatever that's worth.  You could also argue that the Ural Train scene in "Zhivago" was very Leone-esque in its use of natural sounds and silence.  There was quite a bit of music composed for that scene but it was all cut out.  And it's hard to watch the desert scenes in GBU without thinking of "Lawrence" (though I believe "Greed" was the primary inspiration).

I think Frayling said that the opening of "Great Expectations" may have influenced the "Ecstasy of Gold" scene in GBU, but again I've not seen the former so can't comment on that. . .

Both directors were also very anti-authoritarian, though that can be said of about 80% of film directors working at the time.

My opinion isn't that Leone deliberately referenced Lean's work, but he kind of internalized some of his techniques, consciously or subconsciously. 


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: The Peacemaker on August 01, 2006, 04:42:06 PM
Seriously doubt it's a direct reference, but I watched "Doctor Zhivago" again today and I noticed a crane shot pretty much identical to one in OUATITW.  When Zhivago is captured by the Red Partisans and they ride off into the forest, the camera pans up slowly as the music reaches a climax to reveal a simply huge forest.  Reminded me of the crane shot revealing Flagstone in OUATITW.  I'm not saying it's a reference, but I found it interesting that the two shots in question were practically identical. 

Also, during the massacre of the White soldiers in the field, the panning down of the camera until the machine gun barrel pops into frame also reminded me of Leone, GBU in particular, with guns suddenly sliding into frame.  If you've seen "Zhivago" and GBU you know what I mean.  Again, I doubt it's a reference, but it's a neat thing to pick up on.

I noticed the gun sliding into frame shot, but it certainly wasn't a reference.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on August 02, 2006, 05:58:51 AM
I noticed the gun sliding into frame shot, but it certainly wasn't a reference.

Right, it's similar but not a reference.  I'm not trying to diminish Leone or argue that he's beholden to Lean, but it's interesting to see that these two directors used a lot of the same techniques.  Some of it was probably intentional homage, a lot of it probably wasn't (after all both were directors of films on an epic scale; also, both were huge fans of John Ford).

Not sure about the massacre in DYS being Lean-esque though, I can't think of anything Lean did that reminds me of that.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on August 03, 2006, 09:00:23 AM
It's difficult to watch Lawrence and not think of Leone, especially with its use of trains and Spanish desert locations.

For me, the movie that comes to mind more often than not is DYS. I was watching the second half of Lean's epic last night (that Superbit DVD sure looks good) and one scene had me suddenly sitting upright in my chair. It's the scene between Arthur Kennedy (playing the journalist "Bently," who of course is really Lowell Thomas) and Ali (Omar Sharrif), which contains this exchange:

[Kennedy is looking at a primer called The Little Citizen, opened to the chapter "Our Parliament." Apparently he has found it among Ali's possessions. Ali enters.]

A: It is for children. I have set myself to learn again.
B: What are you learning from this?
A: Politics.
B: You gonna have a democracy in this country? You gonna have a parliament?
A: I will tell you that when I have a country.
B: [laughter]
A: Did I answer well?
B: You answered without saying anything. That's politics. [beat] You learn quickly.
A: I have a good teacher.
B: Yeah. [beat] Yeah.

I note that this occurs during a respite in a military campaign, that a book on politics is the occasion for an exchange on politics, that this occurs in almost the center of the film, that it highlights one of the film's main themes. I submit that it is the model for a similar exchange between John and Juan in DYS........


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: The Peacemaker on August 03, 2006, 10:24:37 AM


I note that this occurs during a respite in a military campaign, that a book on politics is the occasion for an exchange on politics, that this occurs in almost the center of the film, that it highlights one of the film's main themes. I submit that it is the model for a similar exchange between John and Juan in DYS........

You mean when Juan says all that stuff about revolutions and how the peasants end up dead and John is reading a book that he tosses into the mud called " The Patriotism "?


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on August 03, 2006, 10:48:57 AM
Exactly.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: The Peacemaker on August 03, 2006, 10:50:03 AM
Exactly.

Isn't " The Patriotism " a goofed translation of " The Patriot "?


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on August 03, 2006, 11:08:57 AM
Although I've never read Bakunin, I understand that the title of his book could be translated "Patriotism" or "On Patriotism" or "Letters on Patriotism." Famously, SL's use of the title "The Patriotism" is a gaff, appropriate, perhaps, for a film called "Duck, You Sucker." Unhappily, Leone thought he knew more about English than he really did.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on August 03, 2006, 04:20:21 PM
I can see that, and it's an interesting point that I hadn't thought of before.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: The Peacemaker on August 03, 2006, 04:21:02 PM
I can see that, and it's an interesting point that I hadn't thought of before.

Groggy, what happened to your cigar?   ???                   


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on August 03, 2006, 04:29:35 PM
Which cigar?

Anyway Dave, I'll try to watch DYS again soon, so I'll be more able to comment then.  And of course there's the Villista's attack on the train (when Juan and John are on), which has to be a reference to "Lawrence" even if Leone won't admit it (and the scenes aren't particularly similar).

I would definitely love to see what Lean would've done with a Western - it would at least be worth a look IMO.  Lean, Freddie A. Young, and Maurice Jarre on a Western would be something. 


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: The Peacemaker on August 03, 2006, 04:31:52 PM
Which cigar?


The cigar on your icon, it's not animated anymore.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on August 03, 2006, 04:33:16 PM
The cigar on your icon, it's not animated anymore.

I don't recall that it ever was.  In any case it's not my picture, it was posted on the avatar's thread, so whoever created it would be responsible.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: The Peacemaker on August 03, 2006, 04:34:49 PM
I don't recall that it ever was.  In any case it's not my picture, it was posted on the avatar's thread, so whoever created it would be responsible.

Don't you remember? Yesterday there was smoke coming out of the cigar.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on August 03, 2006, 04:36:03 PM
Are you confusing me with The Smoker?  :-\ Honestly I don't remember my avatar ever being animated.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: The Peacemaker on August 03, 2006, 04:36:52 PM
Are you confusing me with The Smoker?  :-\ Honestly I don't remember my avatar ever being animated.

It was yesterday! Have I gone crazy?   ???   ;D


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on August 16, 2006, 09:48:35 AM
Now that it's out on DVD (first widescreen release on home video!) I was able to watch Firecreek. Quite an entertaining flick. It's another variation on the High Noon idea, but this time the craven townspeople have a cowardly sherrif (James Stewart), and that makes the formula work better. When a group of desperados come to town (led by Henry Fonda), the sherrif has to find the will to stand up to them, and as he rises to the challenge the townspeople (or at least one of them) lends support. A more satisfying approach, IMHO.

Henry Fonda starts out the film wounded, so he doesn't display Frank-like menace until later. He has an exchange with Inger Stevens (uncharacteristically fiesty) that could be between Jill and Frank:

IS: Why fight against times changing? Why not join in changing them?

HF: Then I'll be like all the rest. Today I'm one of a few. I lead. That's important to me.

As the movie approaches its climax, Fonda and the boys are walking toward their mounts, about to leave town. Stewart, enraged by their crimes, trails them with threats.  Fonda casually turns around and shoots Stewart in the leg, so that he'll have something to think about if he continues to dog them. This in fact is the final straw that sends Stewart looking for a gun to kill them all, and Fonda recognizes he made a mistake in not taking Stewart out permanently. He has this Frank-like utterance: "One thing I've learned: a man worth shooting is a man worth killing."

The final kill-fest is a lot of fun. The wounded Stewart has to take out 4 baddies, one at a time. This includes dispatching Jack Elam with a pitchfork. Now, that's entertainment!

Fans of OUATITW will be further interested in the fact that the name "Sweetwater" is invoked half a dozen times or more. It is the town nearest to Firecreek, and, apparently, a more up-market berg. The place is mentioned so many times, in fact, that we can't help noticing that the names Sweetwater and Firecreek are antithetical.

This film was released in 1967, and since the shooting of OUATITW was begun in April 1968, it was certainly possible SL saw it before beginning production. I wonder if "Sweetwater" really comes from this film, rather than the candidates usually acknowledged.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Tim on August 16, 2006, 10:36:05 AM
  The thing I always remember about that final showdown is the use of the wind blowing through the town.  When Jack Elam stumbles out of the barn/corral with the pitchfork in his gut  :o, it feels like that wind could blow the viewer over!  Really enjoy this movie and may have to pick up that two-movie dvd.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: The Peacemaker on August 16, 2006, 02:37:08 PM
Firecreek actually came out the same year OUATITW did in Italy. The similarities between the two movies is merely coincidental.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on August 16, 2006, 04:13:02 PM
thanks I'll have to pick it up. 8)


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on August 17, 2006, 07:43:21 AM
Firecreek actually came out the same year OUATITW did in Italy. The similarities between the two movies is merely coincidental.
So, Leone had to wait to see movies in theaters just like any other slob? He had no industry connections, and couldn't even see a pre-release screening of a film by an actor he wanted to hire? Also, SL went to the U.S. in '67; maybe he saw it then.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: The Peacemaker on August 17, 2006, 10:39:34 AM
So, Leone had to wait to see movies in theaters just like any other slob? He had no industry connections, and couldn't even see a pre-release screening of a film by an actor he wanted to hire? Also, SL went to the U.S. in '67; maybe he saw it then.

He was working on OUATITW around the time Firecreek came out.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Leone Admirer on August 17, 2006, 05:56:54 PM
When re-watching The Searchers again recently I noticed that there were certain bits of the great score that had a similarity with some of Morricone's score in West.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on August 18, 2006, 05:30:18 PM
Can you be more specific? Do you remember particular cues or scenes?


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on August 18, 2006, 06:54:51 PM
When re-watching The Searchers again recently I noticed that there were certain bits of the great score that had a similarity with some of Morricone's score in West.

Really?  I just watched in Wednesday and I don't notice any similarities.  I did notice that it was very similar to "Major Dundee" though. . . there was one tune which played on the "Searchers" soundtrack that was sung several times by Richard Harris in "Dundee" and appeared on that film's soundtrack several times, I don't know what it's called (it's not "Dixie" or "Bonnie Blue Flag", just FYI).


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Leone Admirer on August 19, 2006, 07:22:52 AM
The main bit I found was when Wayne and Bond are preparing to leave the cabin to go and look for the cattle and Wayne looks over at Martha putting away some sheets and the music, choice of instruments wise, reminds me of the sequences with Jill and Cheyanne in the cabin in OUATITW


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Tim on August 19, 2006, 11:00:10 AM
Quote
that was sung several times by Richard Harris in "Dundee" and appeared on that film's soundtrack several times, I don't know what it's called (it's not "Dixie" or "Bonnie Blue Flag", just FYI).

  All I'm coming up with is "Laura Lee" but I can't remember if Tyreen sings/hums it.  Ok, maybe he did.  For sure, I know Brock Peters (Aesop) is singing it as Dundee's troop is getting ready for the Apache ambush.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on August 19, 2006, 03:23:08 PM
That's not it.  The lyrics aren't really audible (at least to my ears), it's the song he's singing in the jail cell before Dundee punches him out and when playing with the one Rostes boy.  And an instrumental version of it plays on some of the soundtrack pieces.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on August 26, 2006, 07:38:25 AM
Ok, definitely Night Passage (1957), it has "the Man with The Accordion" Jimmy Stewart,  and the first time you see him he's using it to entertain the track layers at the end of track. And it has shots of track laying & railroad building, though not as well done as in OUTITW.

But it does have some outstanding RR action footage in the Colorado Rockies.

Later he uses a tune and song from his past to influence his brother gone bad. 

Hope some of you got to record this off TCM yesterday.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: The Peacemaker on August 26, 2006, 07:41:02 AM

Hope some of you got to record this off TCM yesterday.

I recorded The Far Country and Night Passage. I'm looking forward to watching them tomorrow, I'll be busy today.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on September 10, 2006, 03:58:05 PM
There was another analogue (note I don't say "reference") between "Zhivago" and OUATITW that I noticed recently.  The scene where Komarovsky finds Lara's mother poisoned and rushes through the house to write a letter and find help, etc., has a tracking shot following his movements through the house, etc., from the outside, even when he isn't visible (through the windows).  I was watching that scene and I thought "now where have I seen this before?" and it finally dawned on me after about a minute that I was thinking of the aftermath of the shootout on Morton's train with Frank walking through the train.  Now it wasn't exactly the same and again I doubt it was a direct reference (I'd bet that's a copied shot from an older film) but again, I found it interesting to see such a similar shot in the two movies.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: The Peacemaker on September 10, 2006, 04:02:00 PM
There was another analogue (note I don't say "reference") between "Zhivago" and OUATITW that I noticed recently.  The scene where Komarovsky finds Lara's mother poisoned and rushes through the house to write a letter and find help, etc., has a tracking shot following his movements through the house, etc., from the outside, even when he isn't visible (through the windows).  I was watching that scene and I thought "now where have I seen this before?" and it finally dawned on me after about a minute that I was thinking of the aftermath of the shootout on Morton's train with Frank walking through the train.  Now it wasn't exactly the same and again I doubt it was a direct reference (I'd bet that's a copied shot from an older film) but again, I found it interesting to see such a similar shot in the two movies.

It's not a reference. I highly doubt Leone made any references to Lean's films, except maybe Bridge on the River Kwai in GBU.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Kurugen on September 10, 2006, 04:07:39 PM
i think i see 1 reference.This has proably already been metioned but that one guys rilfe in the beganing.The sawed off one looks like the gun from that one Steve Mcqueen show.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on September 10, 2006, 04:10:54 PM
It's not a reference. I highly doubt Leone made any references to Lean's films, except maybe Bridge on the River Kwai in GBU.


Well I agree with Dave that DYS probably took a great deal from LoA, but overall I agree with you.  The crane shot and the shot I just mentioned were probably taken from other films ("Gone With The Wind", etc.), as I know Lean referenced a lot of Russian films in "Zhivago" (like "Alexander Nevsky" and "Battleship Potemkin").

And Kurugen, that's "Wanted: Dead or Live".  ;D


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: The Peacemaker on September 10, 2006, 04:20:10 PM
DYS probably took a great deal from LoA,

You think so? I'll be seeing the movie in two weeks from yesterday so then I can give my opinion. DYS that is, LoA I already saw twice.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on September 10, 2006, 04:25:42 PM
Well read some of DJ's posts above, he mentioned the scene with Arthur Kennedy and Omar Sharif as resembling the Juan/Sean discussion about "revolution".  In terms of dialogue it isn't very similar, but the setting, etc., is certainly similar, though you can disagree.  DYS borrows more thematically from LoA than in terms of literal scenes, the political aspects especially.  The train attack scene put me in mind of the ones in LoA; though it isn't exactly the same, it's hard to think Leone wasn't thinking of Lean's film when he did that.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: The Peacemaker on September 10, 2006, 04:29:53 PM
Well read some of DJ's posts above, he mentioned the scene with Arthur Kennedy and Omar Sharif as resembling the Juan/Sean discussion about "revolution".  In terms of dialogue it isn't very similar, but the setting, etc., is certainly similar, though you can disagree.  DYS borrows more thematically from LoA than in terms of literal scenes, the political aspects especially.  The train attack scene put me in mind of the ones in LoA; though it isn't exactly the same, it's hard to think Leone wasn't thinking of Lean's film when he did that.

The train attacks were done too differently IMO to be any kind of reference. I remember in DYS that they used a truck to block the train, and it was near a station. Unlike LoA when Lawrence destroys the tracks leading to that cool train wreck ( that train must've had some impact on the ground, if you look carefully when the train hits the ground the camera jolts ).


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on September 10, 2006, 04:36:40 PM
Can we agree that the possibility of LoA references in DYS isn't any more spurious than some of the purported "references" in OUATITW?  ;)


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: The Peacemaker on September 10, 2006, 04:41:15 PM
Can we agree that the possibility of LoA references in DYS isn't any more spurious than some of the purported "references" in OUATITW?  ;)

I can definitely agree.  ;)


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on September 14, 2006, 09:58:22 AM
Maybe the term "reference" is what is hanging people up here. When I think of a director referencing the work of another, I imagine that he copies a set-up expecting some of his audience to recognize the original model. This is clearly what SL was about in OUATITW. In his other films, however, he may have only wanted to use shots that worked particularly well in other films for entirely utilitarian reasons, without regard to whether an audience would recognize a reference or not. It's possible SL may not even have wanted people to think of other films when watching his (again, excepting OUATITW). Still, you can't help noticing that sometimes SL seemed to have been inspired by shots in earlier works, perhaps even unconciously. The way in which the Bakunin scene in DYS mirrors the book-reading scene in LoA is striking. In both cases men are in camp, reclining, taking a respite from a military campaign. In both cases a book about politics is the occasion for a discussion about politics. I would not say that DYS is "referencing" LoA here, but I think it would have been unlikely for SL to do his scene the way he does had he not first seen Lean's.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on September 14, 2006, 04:52:43 PM
I've notice quotes from previous westerns in GBU, don't know if they were intentional (like OUAITW) or not, a two that come to mind are the coyote cry from Red River, the quote from Yellow Sky that its "70 miles to town" across the salt pan. There are others for sure, I think we mentioned them earlier in the thread.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on September 14, 2006, 05:19:12 PM
The "coyote howl" has been around forever, I've heard it in numerous Westerns, plus one of the "Metal Gear Solid" Playstation games.  :o


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on September 14, 2006, 05:41:57 PM
I wonder if that coyote howl is a "stock" sound  8)


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on September 15, 2006, 03:59:09 PM
Maybe the term "reference" is what is hanging people up here. When I think of a director referencing the work of another, I imagine that he copies a set-up expecting some of his audience to recognize the original model. This is clearly what SL was about in OUATITW. In his other films, however, he may have only wanted to use shots that worked particularly well in other films for entirely utilitarian reasons, without regard to whether an audience would recognize a reference or not. It's possible SL may not even have wanted people to think of other films when watching his (again, excepting OUATITW). Still, you can't help noticing that sometimes SL seemed to have been inspired by shots in earlier works, perhaps even unconciously. The way in which the Bakunin scene in DYS mirrors the book-reading scene in LoA is striking. In both cases men are in camp, reclining, taking a respite from a military campaign. In both cases a book about politics is the occasion for a discussion about politics. I would not say that DYS is "referencing" LoA here, but I think it would have been unlikely for SL to do his scene the way he does had he not first seen Lean's.

I agree, and that's why I was careful to stipulate "analogues" in my latest post.  The train attack scenes in LoA and DYS are very different, but it's hard to think Leone wasn't thinking of LoA when he did it.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on April 14, 2007, 02:18:51 PM
dave you should update this topic to correct, add, etc., to the list to get an up to date consensus, if you are up for it.  8)


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: archangel on April 15, 2007, 03:34:16 AM
I wonder if that coyote howl is a "stock" sound  8)
no, it's not.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on April 15, 2007, 08:31:30 AM
Quote
no, it's not.

I ment that it sounds remarkably like the coyote in Red River, but then I suppose most coyote's sound alike  ;)

The ones I used to hear in Montana and here in the Catskills are not "lone" coyote calls but usually a cacaphony of yelps and howls when they are hunting in a pack and make a kill.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: archangel on April 15, 2007, 08:49:59 PM
cigar joe, it's in the audio artifacts around the coyote sound.
i'm an audio expert - and it's easy to suss these things for me.
ask yourself the question, why; why would anyone commit such sounds to tape if there wasn't a reason for it.
the reason is: these sounds were needed for a production. the production was SL soundtracks.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on April 15, 2007, 09:22:46 PM
sounds reasonable to me thanks


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: poderator on April 16, 2007, 03:21:20 AM
I dont know if you discussed this earlier, but there is one reference in OUATIW from the movie Shane. I think maybe even direct quote. In the scene where Frank and his man appear from the bush, and as they walking towards little boy, we see the tree stump, that looks like the stump that Shane and Joe tried to cut of.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on April 16, 2007, 03:27:17 PM
Yea, pod you are right, that's mentioned someplace that Leone wanted it to look like there were trees around the homestead just like in Shane.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on April 16, 2007, 04:44:40 PM
I kinda-sorta understand why they keep all those stock sounds around, but I really think it's ridiculous.  I like some of these, like the Wilhelm Scream for instance, but others are just annoying. The *BLAM!* gunshot noise used by 20th Century Fox in pretty much all of their movies from the '50s-'70s is particularly obnoxious, especially when they indiscriminately use it for every type of gun imaginable.  I remember watching "Patton" once and being distracted by them using the same sound effect for every single gunshot. Rifle - BLAM! Pistol - BLAM! Tommy gun - BLAM! Come on, people - is it really that expensive to go out into the canyon and record your own gunshots? If Leone could do it on a $200,000 budget, why can't a big production by a major studio like "Patton"?

For that matter, when you have an extravagantly-budgeted movie, why does it matter if you can save a few hundred bucks at most by recycling a sound effect when you're already putting millions into the film?  Maybe on a lower-budgeted movie I can understand, but come on. . .


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: poderator on April 17, 2007, 05:46:17 AM
In the commentary abot the movie OUATIW, Christopher Frayling said that their is a reference from Shane and Sergeant Rutledge. Does any of you guys know  exactly what and where in the movie that reference was?


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on April 17, 2007, 08:43:50 AM
dave you should update this topic to correct, add, etc., to the list to get an up to date consensus, if you are up for it.  8)
I'm your huckleberry.

Here's where I think we are at this point, and we still aren't up to 30. I'm ignoring Frayling's nuttier ideas and sticking with what is more or less the consensus here. I'll be happy to consider suggestions to add.


Ace in the Hole (1952). The belt-and-suspenders remark comes from here.

The Comancheros (1961). The names McBain and Sweetwater come from this film, as does the image of a man drinking two-handed and slowly revealing that he is handcuffed.

Firecreek (1967). A ruthless Henry Fonda and his gang come to town to torment part-time lawman Jimmy Stewart and his fellow citizens. The town of Firecreek is compared unfavorably with a prosperous nearby community, Sweetwater. Fonda’s character is undoubtedly a prototype for Frank in OUATITW (SL may not have seen this film).

Fort Apache (1948). According to Sergio Leone: “The glacial Henry Fonda of Once Upon a Time is the legitimate son . . . of the intuition that John Ford brought to Fort Apache.”

Forty Guns (1957). A cinemascope Western, it employs several devices that would become SL staples, notably the ultra-close close-up of a character’s eyes. The film also ends with the title re-appearing; SL would later adopt and adapt this practice, making his audience wait for the conclusions of OUATITW and DYS to see those films christened.

High Noon (1952). Three baddies wait at a station for the noon train bringing Frank, similar to what happens at Cattle Corner at the beginning of OUATITW.

How the West Was Won (1962). There is an auction scene where Debbie Reynolds has to sell an expensive mansion for a song. The film concludes with Debbie Reynolds traveling in a four-wheel buggy through Monument valley with the Prescott family and a horse named Sam.

The Iron Horse (1924). The prototype for all railroad-building Westerns, inevitably referenced in OUATITW. The arrival of the locomotive, which travels over the top of the camera, is a direct quote. The shots of the rail gang at the end also seems inspired by the Ford picture.

Johnny Guitar (1954) Much of the plot for OUATITW comes from this picture, but there are also specific visual references. Vienna has a model of the railroad and the surrounding town; Johnny Guitar rides through railroad workers, much as Sam rides through railroad workers in OUATITW. And possibly Harmonica’s harmonica is a nod to Johnny Guitar’s guitar.

Jubal (1956). Not a reference as such, perhaps, but a reaction to an exchange that occurs between Ernest Borgnine and Glenn Ford.

--You know much about women?
--I can’t say I do. Why?
--Mae. Things ain’t right between us. You’ve been around. You’ve seen us. You know anything I can do to make her like me better? Of course, I can’t change this ugly face none but maybe some things I do, I don’t do right.
--There’s a lot of things a man does that bother a woman.
--Like what?
--Like slurping coffee out of a saucer.
--Yeah?
--Spitting. Scratching. Whacking her on the behind when she isn’t looking.
--Why, I always do that.
--You mean, in front of company?
--Why sure, if I just swat her in private—
--Do you think she likes being swatted?
--Don’t all women? Shows them you love them, don’t it?
--There are other ways, you know, Shep.
--Of course! Why, that’s exactly what’s been bothering her.
--That’s right. She’s just fed up with being whacked on the rump.
--Thanks for the tip, Jube.

It’s likely that SL used the following speech, from Cheyenne to Jill, as his response to the above: “You know what? If I was you I’d go down there and give those boys a drink. Can’t imagine how happy it makes a man to see a woman like you. Just to look at her. And if one of them should, uh, pat your behind, just make believe it’s nothing. They earned it.”

The Quiet Man (1952). The final flashback in OUATITW is shot and edited in such a way as to resemble the flashback of John Wayne killing a man in the ring.

The Last Sunset (1961). Kirk Douglas and Rock Hudson square off for a duel at the end that some feel was the model for the showdown between Harmonica and Frank.

Last Train From Gun Hill (1958): Anthony Quinn’s son does not approve of his father’s remarriage to an ex-dance-hall girl. In OUATITW, the oldest McBain boy similarly objects to his father’s remarriage.

Man of the West (1958) Julie London has her dance hall clothes ripped off her; perhaps this inspired the scene in OUATITW where Harmonica tears off part of Jill’s clothing.

The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962). Lee Marvin, Lee Van Cleef, and Strother Martin terrorize town residents during a local election meeting, similar to the way Frank’s men act in the auction scene in OUATITW.

My Darling Clementine (1946). The climactic shoot out at the OK Corral unfolds with sound effects but no music, undoubtedly a precursor to the “silent” opening sequence in OUATITW. Menacing men in dusters appear here as well.

Night Passage (1957). Jimmy Stewart is The Man With the Accordion.

The Paleface (1922). Jack Elam’s duel with the fly in OUATITW is an homage to Buster Keaton’s butterfly problem in this film.

Pursued (1947). Frayling suggests the recurring flashback structure in OUATITW is copied from the one used here. Since SL had already used the device in FAFDM, however, it might be just as appropriate to say Leone is quoting himself.

Red River (1948). There is a moment in the film when Clift slides a lantern across a darkened room to dramatically reveal Joann Dru’s face, an effect later used by Leone—when Cheyenne first confronts Harmonica—in OUATITW.

Run of the Arrow (1957). Charles Bronson plays a mute Indian boy who communicates by playing his harmonica. This is a  possible inspiration for the character Harmonica in OUATITW.

The Searchers (1956). Aaron Edwards sees suspicious signs in the desert surrounding his house just prior to the massacre (for example, the partridges fly away as if spooked). This is clearly referenced in OUATITW just prior to the McBain massacre. Also, the shot of Scar from the girl’s POV after the massacre is similar to the one Timmy has of Frank after his family is killed. Finally, it may be Ford's use of back-lit doors in this film that inspired SL to begin his own doors fixation.

Shane (1952). Joey Starrett mimes the stalking of a deer, rifle in hand. In OUATITW, Timmy McBain mimes shooting birds.

3:10 To Yuma (1957). Glenn Ford whistles the title theme to pass the time. The sequence in OUATITW where Fonda is stalked by his own men in the streets of Flagstone is appropriated and adapted from the climactic sequence in 3:10 where Ford’s men come to free him. And of course, in OUATITW, Keenan Wynn decides to send Cheyenne to a “modern jail” in Yuma.

Warlock (1959). Fonda kicks a crutch out from beneath a cripple who has annoyed him, similar to what he does to Morton in OUATITW.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on April 17, 2007, 07:29:45 PM
great job and thanks!

Well we are up to 25 for sure, I do think the big tree stump should go in the Shane quote also.

I haven't seen Sergeant Rutledge is such a long time pod so I don't know about that one, I barely remember it.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on April 19, 2007, 04:26:31 PM
In the commentary abot the movie OUATIW, Christopher Frayling said that their is a reference from Shane and Sergeant Rutledge. Does any of you guys know  exactly what and where in the movie that reference was?

The "Sergeant Rutledge" reference was the scene where Jill stands vigil at night with her shotgun. Constance Towers does basically the same thing in a scene after an Indian attack.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on April 19, 2007, 05:27:09 PM
Is it a clear reference, or something that's merely coincidental? (I haven't seen it so I can't judge.....)


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: poderator on April 20, 2007, 05:32:41 AM
Thanks alot Groggy, I didn't know that ;)


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on April 20, 2007, 05:27:48 PM
Is it a clear reference, or something that's merely coincidental? (I haven't seen it so I can't judge.....)

I've not seen the film in a long time, but I vaguely remember it. It's at least as clear as the Liberty Valance reference with the auction scene (though as I said the dusters worn by Lee Marvin and Co. is the more recognizable reference).


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: poderator on April 23, 2007, 12:50:30 AM
I watched commentary again and I think that Frayling said OUATIW has the same ending  as "Sergeant Rutlidge" and Shane. That "Someday" line at the end of the movie. So  does anyone know what kind of "goodbye ending" Sergeant Rutlidge has?


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on April 23, 2007, 04:39:37 PM
There was a line where Woody Strode and one of the other black troopers were discussing something, and Strode said something about "Some day". I remember the line by the other trooper: "It's always someday, isn't it, Brax?" or something to that affect.


Title: Um, good coffee!
Post by: dave jenkins on April 26, 2007, 05:24:06 PM
Frayling and others would have us believe that the talk about coffee between Cheyenne and Jill is a reference. I don't believe that it is a specific reference, but may allude to American Westerns in general. If you look at Westerns made in the U.S., especially in the 50s, you will find any number of them with coffee drinking scenes. This can be because coffee drinking was an important cultural activity of the 50s (and this at a time before Starbuck's and the like, when coffee making and coffee drinking were almost the same thing), but also, given the need in stories for characters to huddle about the fire while talking, a convenient bit of business to occupy the actors with.

Last night, while rewatching 7 Men From Now, I was struck by how much coffee drinking is done there. The opening scene has Randolf Scott swilling the black beverage before gunning down his two hosts. Later, in the company of Gail Russell and her husband, Scott gets several cups of joe over the space of a few days. Then there is a scene where Lee Marvin comes in out of the rain to needle Scott about Russell and give everyone generally a bad time. As he leers at Russell, Marvin says something like "Great cup of coffee, ma'am." The scene ends with violence (could coffee have something to do with death?)

I am not suggesting that the coffee drinking in OUATITW references what is done in 7MFN; I just offer that picture as an example of the many Westerns of the period that featured the use of the stimulant. I don't think SL and his screenwriters had any particular film in mind when they worked Cheyenne's coffee comments into the script. They just knew that in order to be true to the spirit of an American Western, they had to have some coffee drinking in their film.


Title: Re: Um, good coffee!
Post by: marmota-b on April 27, 2007, 06:44:50 AM
(could coffee have something to do with death?)

Think about the scene in FFDM, where Manco is preparing coffee (I suppose), but lets the mug drop and shoots the three Indio's men...

I agree that the coffee drinking probably wasn't a reference, just a way of having the right Western feel.
And I guess I would add such a scene to my story myself, without knowing much about how the coffee is used in AW's. Just to have the heroes doing something while they are talking.


Title: Re: Um, good coffee!
Post by: dave jenkins on April 27, 2007, 01:50:34 PM
Think about the scene in FFDM, where Manco is preparing coffee (I suppose), but lets the mug drop and shoots the three Indio's men...
Yeah, no doubt about it, that black stuff is dangerous...


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: poderator on May 11, 2007, 07:09:23 AM
I cannot believe I missed this sequence of the movie: Harmonica is ready to leave McBain farm and after "someday"moment,  we can see railroad workers all around McBain farm. Among many, two guys are digging that  tree stump, just like Shane and Joe. This is certainly direct quote from the movie "Shane". But sequence is very short (unusual for Leone :)) and I somehow missed it! :(


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on May 11, 2007, 04:43:01 PM
I missed it too, apparently. Thanks, I'll check that out.

AMC had "Night Passage" on last Saturday and I saw parts of it. A really bad film. The beginning has Stewart playing his accordion during which a fight breaks out, and afterwards he explains that he must have squeezed out some wrong notes. This might, just might, be referenced by Cheyenne in OUATITW when he warns Harmonica to watch those false notes. Interestingly, that first scene is set among a rail gang at the forward edge of a new train line.

Also saw "Last Train From Gun Hill" (1959) which Frayling thinks "West" cites. I didn't really see anything in it that reminded me of Leone (the objection to the new step-mother is a pretty conventional element). Perhaps the moment when Carolyn Jones steps down from the train is reflected in Claudia's arrival in Flagstone . . . Most of the film is a lot like "3:10 to Yuma" (1957), it has the same ridiculous plot about a guy holed up with a desperado in a hotel room waiting to catch a train. "3:10 "is most definitely quoted in "West" (Franks deadly walk on the streets of Flagstone draws from it), but since "3:10" preceded "Last Train" LT was pretty much just ripping it off. Maybe a couple of the shots showing guys on the roofs of the buildings around the hotel getting picked off inspired the similar stunts in OUATITW.....But 3:10 has that kind of thing too.......


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on May 18, 2007, 02:16:45 PM
Just reviewed Peacemaker's comments in the "Night Passage" thread, to wit:

Quote
There were even some parallels between this and OUATITW such as a musical instrument to bring back memories to a bad person, railroad baron traveling everywhere in the comfort of his private car, even the bad guy tries to kill a kid  ( the bullet strikes the kid in the arm, but the point is, he tried. that never happens in AWs ).

These are astute observations, and I'm now convinced that something of "Night Passage" lives on in OUATITW.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: The Peacemaker on May 19, 2007, 01:29:33 PM
AMC had "Night Passage" on last Saturday and I saw parts of it. A really bad film.

Really?

I enjoyed it very much. One of my favorite AWs.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on October 08, 2007, 10:17:02 AM
I don't think it was mentioned yet, but Frayling says the scene with the dollar in the shot glass comes from "Two Rode Together" (rather than "Gunfight at OK Corral" as stated earlier).

Also, thinking about it, the end scene where Cheyenne/Harmonica leave is DEFINITELY based on "The Searchers", it's done differently but the two gunslingers who have no place in a domestic environment leaving - yeah, that sounds about right to me.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on November 08, 2007, 07:14:45 AM
Just saw another possible reference last night a modern day Western film starring Kirk Douglas called "Ace in The Hole", its about a down and out washed up newspaper reporter who is towed in his broken down convertible into Albuquerque, New Mexico. He goes into a local newspaper office to look for a job as a reporter. When he meets the editor he sees that he's wearing a belt & suspenders and Douglas makes the comment (similar to Fonda's in OUTITW) to the editor about him not trusting anything.

Story is about a man trapped in a cave and Douglas manufactures the story to get back into the big time, it was a pretty good flick.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on November 08, 2007, 08:00:20 AM
Also, thinking about it, the end scene where Cheyenne/Harmonica leave is DEFINITELY based on "The Searchers", it's done differently but the two gunslingers who have no place in a domestic environment leaving - yeah, that sounds about right to me.
SL's "door motif" comes from The Searchers also. Famously. at the end of Ford's film, the cabin door swings shut, indicating Ethan Edward's exclusion from the society within. SL empties the image of symbolic content (I think), and then runs variations on doors swinging, mostly for dramatic effect, throughout OUATITW (in a variety of settings: Cattle Corner station, the trading post, Sweetwater ranch, etc.) SL resumes the practice with OUATIA, where the swinging door motif just may have been re-invested with thematic significance (the back door at Moe's, the door on the clock in Moe's back room, the door of the crypt, the choice of doors Deborah offers to Noodles at their last interview, the secret door Secretary Bailey opens for Noodles, etc.).


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on November 08, 2007, 01:12:33 PM
Just saw another possible reference last night a modern day Western film starring Kirk Douglas called "Ace in The Hole", its about a down and out washed up newspaper reporter who is towed in his broken down convertible into Albuquerque, New Mexico. He goes into a local newspaper office to look for a job as a reporter. When he meets the editor he sees that he's wearing a belt & suspenders and Douglas makes the comment (similar to Fonda's in OUTITW) to the editor about him not trusting anything.

Story is about a man trapped in a cave and Douglas manufactures the story to get back into the big time, it was a pretty good flick.

Already been noted, but thanks anyway.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on November 08, 2007, 01:22:40 PM
I missed that one  ;)


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Cusser on November 09, 2007, 09:57:15 PM
"Ace in the Hole" sometimes goes by the name "The Big Carnival", same film.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on December 12, 2007, 06:04:56 PM
Johnny Guitar: The Dancing Kid and his gang enters

(http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/6126/cap583se0.png)
(http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/878/cap584qk2.png)
(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/6237/cap585lr8.png)
(http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/2834/cap590ey2.png)
(http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/2346/cap592tg2.png)
(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2716/cap596jt1.png)


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: moviesceleton on December 13, 2007, 09:18:31 AM
Johnny Guitar: The Dancing Kid and his gang enters

You mean the entrance of Cheyenne's gang is a reference to that scene?


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: The Peacemaker on December 13, 2007, 01:20:44 PM
You mean the entrance of Cheyenne's gang is a reference to that scene?

It probably is.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on December 13, 2007, 02:07:50 PM
Seems like it to me. In JG, when the gang comes in,  there's a bad matte of Monument Valley in the background; in OUATITW there's some actual Monument Valley dust being thrown about when the gang enters.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Huey on December 14, 2007, 04:23:56 PM
The Gunfighter, starring Gregory Peck, was cited in an article I once read.  This claimed that the scene in which Frank left the saloon, with a gunfight inevitable, was reminiscent of Jimmy Ringo leaving his saloon.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: poderator on January 08, 2008, 03:18:27 AM
Couple a days ago I watched spaghetti western "Wanted" (1967) with Giuliano Gemma in a leading role as Gary Ryan, who is accused for murder, and he is forced to escape. Of course he need to prove his innocence and only whore in the hotel where crime is comitted knows full truth. He is forced to hide in a small mexican village, but he is a wanted man, so he is forced to find a shelter in brother Carmello's little church.
Village is very poor, and 5000 dollars is not small amount for the peasants. So mexican peasants searched the whole village in pursuit for Gary, and they finally came to the church door. Brother Carmello first pulls the "church is a safe place for those who need it", but peasants are wild, because they smell money, and they are ready to break into church by force if neccesary.
Main point; in order to prevent them going into the church brother Carmello pulled heavy guns; it is not exact quote but something like this; " You are a honest folks, i know you all, but this is wrong, what you are doing now. How can you kill a man for a 30 silver coins!". And the bunch of peasants said: " No brother Carmello, not for a 30, but for 5000 yes!"
So this movie is relised in 1967, so that means a year before OUTIW. It contains the similar  joke about Juda as in OUTIW auction scene, and the amount of money is the same: 5000 dollars.
It is not a direct quote I know, but it is very close.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Ben Tyreen on January 22, 2008, 11:42:23 PM
  Watched The Iron Horse today and caught a lot of references Leone used in OUATITW from Ford's silent picture as Dave put in the post a few pages back.  There were some really cool visuals, especially the train driving over the camera, a scene repeated almost exactly in the beginning of OUATITW. 

  It's a great train movie, only a good movie overall.  But definitely worth checking out for the footage of the trains, and also the Indian attacks on a train at the end of the track.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: T.H. on July 13, 2008, 08:07:50 AM
This thread really should be stickied. You guys did a wonderful job, even got that dialogue sequence from Jubal (I was going to suggest it), very impressive. The only thing I would add is Vera Miles' stepping off the train in Liberty Valance is very similar to Jill's in West. I believe I posted this before but I don't even know if it's important enough.





Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on July 13, 2008, 08:53:00 AM
The Gunfighter, starring Gregory Peck, was cited in an article I once read.  This claimed that the scene in which Frank left the saloon, with a gunfight inevitable, was reminiscent of Jimmy Ringo leaving his saloon.

I never thought of this one, but it seems pretty solid to me.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on July 14, 2008, 01:47:56 PM
This thread really should be stickied. You guys did a wonderful job, even got that dialogue sequence from Jubal (I was going to suggest it), very impressive. The only thing I would add is Vera Miles' stepping off the train in Liberty Valance is very similar to Jill's in West. I believe I posted this before but I don't even know if it's important enough.
Thanks, no, that is an important observation. There is also a similar scene in Last Train From Gun Hill where Caroline Jones steps down off the train.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: T.H. on July 14, 2008, 04:44:54 PM
Yes, that escaped my mind, nice one Jenkins.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: uncknown on May 09, 2009, 03:42:22 PM
As I said above, I also think that this could be in part of the fact that Leone cited "Warlock" as one of his favorite films.  While the "Liberty Valance" references, as relatively vague as they are, can be pretty well confirmed, I see virtually nothing to connect "Warlock" to OUATITW, except that Leone was a fan.  So, go figure.

I just started a thread on WARLOCK in the other films category.
Fonda's general persona is the closest thing to an influence imo


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: uncknown on May 09, 2009, 03:47:11 PM
Just saw another possible reference last night a modern day Western film starring Kirk Douglas called "Ace in The Hole", its about a down and out washed up newspaper reporter who is towed in his broken down convertible into Albuquerque, New Mexico. He goes into a local newspaper office to look for a job as a reporter. When he meets the editor he sees that he's wearing a belt & suspenders and Douglas makes the comment (similar to Fonda's in OUTITW) to the editor about him not trusting anything.

Story is about a man trapped in a cave and Douglas manufactures the story to get back into the big time, it was a pretty good flick.

yeah i just watched that one and noticed that dialog.
the meaning is differnt however. Douglas says it admiringly - this is a man  who is prepared, dependable.
In WEST it is a putdown "he doesnt t trust his own pants..."


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on May 09, 2009, 07:33:36 PM
Groggy must have modified his view, because later he pointed out the knocking-over-the-guy-with-crutches routine that is common to both films.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Cusser on May 10, 2009, 06:28:23 AM
"Ace in the Hole" is also known as "The Big Carnival".  I've seen it, it's good, and thought provoking.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: uncknown on May 10, 2009, 11:02:28 AM
"Ace in the Hole" is also known as "The Big Carnival".  I've seen it, it's good, and thought provoking.

could been a classic if it had someone other than Kirk Douglas in the lead. Felt like I was watching a Frank Gorshin imitation!


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on May 11, 2009, 09:43:12 AM
could been a classic if it had someone other than Kirk Douglas in the lead. Felt like I was watching a Frank Gorshin imitation!
;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on May 24, 2009, 02:55:17 PM
Groggy must have modified his view, because later he pointed out the knocking-over-the-guy-with-crutches routine that is common to both films.

I modified my view upon watching the movie. As uncknown points out, there's a lot in Warlock, at least in the characterization of Fonda's character, that seems clearly reflected in OUATITW.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on June 12, 2009, 01:28:48 PM
Well I'm sure it's been said before, but the gun slide down the bar comes from My Darling Clementine.

Also note that Tuco's "When you have to shoot, SHOOT!" line in GBU is VERY close to Walter Brennan's advice to his sons: "When you pull a gun, KILL a man!"


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Huey on January 21, 2010, 03:22:46 PM
I watched My Darling Clementine the other day and I would say this film heavily influenced Leone with some of the scenes in Flagstone resembling those in Tombstone:

  • When Cathy Downs checks into the hotel in Tombstone, Fonda suggests to the hotelier that he should organise some hot water for her so she can take a bath.  In the hotel at Flagstone, Claudia is very intent on taking her bath in a tub of hot water.
  • In the Flagstone hotel, Fonda looks as if he has just left the Tombstone barber shop again (and I believe a scene in a barber shop was filmed for OUTW but then deleted).
  • The partly built church in MDC is the model for several incomplete buildings at Flagstone.
  • The horse and buggy driven by Ward Bond into Monument Valley is reprised by Sam in OUTW.
  • Both films feature a man who is terminally ill with tuberculosis: Victor Mature and Gabriele Ferzetti.
  • An oblique reference but the way they laid out the McBain family's bodies on dining tables is reminiscent of Chihuahua being laid out on a saloon table for her operation, after which she died.
  • Downs and Cardinale both arrive in town looking for a man they loved and have now lost.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on January 21, 2010, 07:56:13 PM
The only thing I'll take issue with is this one:

Quote
Both films feature a man who is terminally ill with tuberculosis: Victor Mature and Gabriele Ferzetti.

Morton had "tuberculosis of the bones", a euphemism for a cancer or degenerative disease. If you read, say, Henrik Ibsen's work, various veneral diseases (the Doctor with syphilis in A Doll's House) are coded in similar terms. Tuberculosis is a respiratory ailment.

Plus there are many other Westerns with crippled villains, perhaps most notably Lionel Barrymore in Duel in the Sun.

Otherwise, a fine job.

To me, the most obvious OUATITW reference in My Darling Clementine is the bar scene, where the gun is slid down the bar to Henry Fonda during his first meeting with Mature.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on January 21, 2010, 08:13:55 PM
To me, the most obvious OUATITW reference in My Darling Clementine is the bar scene, where the gun is slid down the bar to Henry Fonda during his first meeting with Mature.
I'm wondering if maybe that's merely a genre convention. That is, it was an old move even when they did it in MDC. I haven't seen enough of 30s B-Westerns to be sure, though, so maybe Groggy is right. If it was original with MDC, then it sure set a precedent, cause it shows up in lots of TV Westerns, even in the Western episode of The Prisoner!

The two elements that leap out at me when I rewatch MDC now are both part of the OK Corral climax: the use of dusters, and the non-use of music. Ford wanted the film virtually scoreless, but Zanuck wouldn't stand for it. In the end, though, he didn't mess with the OK Corral scene. In some ways, that scene provides a template for Cattle Corner at the beginning of West.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Huey on January 23, 2010, 07:01:44 PM
The sliding gun is a good one.  I can't recall it being done in any films earlier than MDC but, as you say, it became something of a genre convention.  A variation on it was the underhand throw of the pistol to a friend, as in Jubal from Charles Bronson to Glenn Ford.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on January 28, 2010, 07:46:24 AM
Before enumerating them, I should point out some general effects that Leone used not only in OUATITW but throughout his career. One is a particular shot of horses from the pov of a driver on a buckboard or coach; we see this used in GBU between the time Tuco and Blondie leave the mission and before they are captured by the blue bellies. We see  a very similar shot in OUATITW on the drive from Flagstone to the trading post. The antecedent for these is a shot in 3:10 near the very beginning of the film when a stagecoach is held up by Glenn Ford and his gang.

A more likely origin of this is Stagecoach, which features several almost-identical shots.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on December 02, 2010, 03:19:53 AM
I think I found another visual reference, was watching "Stagecoach" last night and noticed that there is a shot/sequence of  Louise Platt  as Lucy Mallory where she is walking to or from the stagecoach and wearing a very similar traveling outfit, hat, shawl,  etc., as Jill's in OUTITW.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on December 02, 2010, 06:09:26 AM
Interesting. Maybe marmota can comment.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: SeanSeanSean on December 29, 2010, 09:07:43 AM
OUATITW is still so watchable after more than 40 years and i lost count on the number of viewings.
Had a chance this week to see it again (as it should be) on the big sceen, in the repetory house here in the city.

To my amazement, I was riveted to the screen for the 3 hours +.
A real testamonial to the greatness of Leone.

It was also good to hear audience reaction to some scenes as I remembered them way back when, like the chuckles to the 2 too many horses line, Cheyenne cutting himself shaving, etc... There always seems to be someone in the theatre who is watching for the first time. (Leone virgins  ^-^)


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: SeanSeanSean on January 01, 2011, 01:52:54 PM
I noticed something for the 1rst time in this last complete viewing, the locomotive of the train at Cattle corner with Harmonica on board is the same that brings Jill to Flagstone.
Number 71.
BTW, Moton's locomotive is different.

Harmonica's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW-jSa9_k3M

Jill's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRs6CNV4T34


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Cusser on January 02, 2011, 04:18:48 PM
I noticed something for the 1rst time in this last complete viewing, the locomotive of the train at Cattle corner with Harmonica on board is the same that brings Jill to Flagstone.
Number 71.

Yep.  Frank set up the meeting with Harmonica to be at Cattle Corner, didn't want to have his dirty work done close to himself if he could avoid it.  So I believe that's why that set up meeting wasn't in Flagstone.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: SeanSeanSean on January 03, 2011, 07:37:12 AM
Yep.  Frank set up the meeting with Harmonica to be at Cattle Corner, didn't want to have his dirty work done close to himself if he could avoid it.  So I believe that's why that set up meeting wasn't in Flagstone.
That isn't my point.
Frank wasn't at Cattle Corner because he was at the McBain's as Harmonica says to Woobles. And Jill's train arrives at Flagstone when the massacre occurs.
So all these scenes supposedly occur at the same time.
I notice 2 different trains with the same locomotive.
Check out the number on the locomotive at Cattle Corner when Leone's credit falls in front of it. NUMBER 71. Just as Timmy is shot, the train bringing Jill is also NUMBER 71.

In fact, it's unfortunate because the narrative could have been that the same train brings Harmonica to Cattle corner and continues on to Flagstone with Jill on board. Now that would mean that both were on the same train.
But alas, when you look closely at the 2 trains, you notice that they are different. What I noticed is a flat bed before the passenger cars at CC which isn't there at Flagstone.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 11, 2011, 09:19:39 AM
Hey y'all, I just read through this thread for the first time, some really awesome stuff here. Great job!  O0

a) Just wanted to add a few things on Rio Bravo. None of these are certain, just some possibilities:

-- opening scene. a lot happens with no dialogue. (Though this concept reached it's peak in the opening scene of OUATITW, this sorta thing was prevalent throughout Leone's films).

--  RE: Fonda's walk through Tombstone in OUATITW: there is (at least one, possibly more) scenes where Wayne and Martin patrol the town (at night), it's all done in a way to invoke fear, as they know the bad guys could be lurking anywhere. Some of y'all mentioned 3:10 to Yuma as the reference for that scene; who knows which one Leone was thinking about; maybe a combination of 'em. Besides, I'd guess that sorta thing is probably a "convention of the genre" so maybe it can't be attributed to any one movie

-- there is scene in Wayne's hotel room where Pedro Gonzalez Gonzalez (the hotel owner) is showing John Wayne the red underwear Gonzalez Gonzalez (I love that last name!) bought for his wife, and Angie Dickinson walks in on them, and then there is a running gag where she makes fun of Wayne, as if those were his. Well, reminds me of another scene in a hotel involving someone making fun  of another re: their underwear-- in FAFDM -- "Senor Martinez: I don't wear 'em!"  (btw, can the historians here answer this question: Were those women's knee-level shorts their underwear, or did they wear anything under that?)

b) It was mentioned in this thread that Harmonica's harmonica could be  a reference to Johnny Guitar's guitar. You may not have to go that far; in Vera Cruz, the Charles Bronson character plays a harmonica. On the other hand, maybe it is indeed a reference to Johnny Guitar, considering that both characters are named after their instruments. (dj and some others previously mentioned in another thread that there is a movie where Bronson played a mute Indian boy who communicated by playing harmonica, but I have not seen that movie).

btw, in The Hoods, (the book that OUATIA was based on) Cockeye plays a harmonica; but in the movie, he plays the pan flute. Maybe Leone changed it cuz he was afraid that if he used a harmonica in the movie, people would think he was referencing his own earlier film?



Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: stanton on December 11, 2011, 11:52:04 AM
(dj and some others previously mentioned in another thread that there is a movie where Bronson played a mute Indian boy who communicated by playing harmonica, but I have not seen that movie).





That's probably from Run of the Arrow, but Bronson isn't the harmonica boy and not mute. He's the leader of the Indians.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on December 11, 2011, 05:35:32 PM

-- there is scene in Wayne's hotel room where Pedro Gonzalez Gonzalez (the hotel owner) is showing John Wayne the red underwear Gonzalez Gonzalez (I love that last name!) bought for his wife, and Angie Dickinson walks in on them, and then there is a running gag where she makes fun of Wayne, as if those were his. Well, reminds me of another scene in a hotel involving someone making fun  of another re: their underwear-- in FAFDM -- "Senor Martinez: I don't wear 'em!"  (btw, can the historians here answer this question: Were those women's knee-level shorts their underwear, or did they wear anything under that?)

There's also a pretty close scene in The Tin Star, though Fonda reacts differently than Eastwood. But Rio Bravo seems like a possible touch point too.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 11, 2011, 09:15:43 PM
There's also a pretty close scene in The Tin Star, though Fonda reacts differently than Eastwood. But Rio Bravo seems like a possible touch point too.

I watched The Tin Star very recently and don't remember any such scene. Remind me, please


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on January 12, 2012, 06:45:32 PM
Don't remember if this film was ever posted before....I know there was a similar scene in Red River prior but here is a Noir ref:  O0 O0 O0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krNLQw8sI34&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krNLQw8sI34&feature=related)


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Groggy on January 21, 2012, 03:18:09 PM
3:10 to Yuma is playing on TCM. Could be a coincidence but the tableau shot of Wade's gang assembled under the hotel window is identical to when Frank's gang arrives at Morton's train. Hard to tell about homage with specific shots but I thought it worth mentioning in light of Jinkies' comments further up the thread. O0


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: marmota-b on April 14, 2013, 02:32:41 PM
(btw, can the historians here answer this question: Were those women's knee-level shorts their underwear, or did they wear anything under that?)

Sorry for the very late reaction: They were. The proper term is drawers. And apparently, they only started to be used during the 19th century.
http://janeaustensworld.wordpress.com/2010/11/06/ladies-underdrawers-in-regency-times/
Before that, women would have just worn a tighter, shorter underpetticoat. Although some recent finds in Austria (http://www.historyextra.com/lingerie) suggest that underwear in the (late) Middle Ages may have been more "modern" than we used to think... but that's just a very off topic aside.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Novecento on April 20, 2013, 08:56:50 PM
Interesting interview with Bertolucci here: http://www.littlewhitelies.co.uk/features/interviews/bernardo-bertolucci-23688

Includes the following about OUATITW:

Quote
You don't seem like one of those directors. Your cinema feels very distinctive.

I see a shot in a movie and it will come back to me. When I want to do a quotation in brackets, it's clear. But otherwise, my references are secret. I wrote the treatment for Once Upon A Time In The West with Dario Argento. And I put many homages to classic westerns in there. It was the '60s so the homage, the quotation was a very new thing. I thought it would be fantastic if Sergio Leone makes these quotations without knowing what they are from.

Or you tricked him.

Yes, I suppose I did! When the movie was completed, I told him. And he said that he knew them all! That man... He was so in love with movies and particularly westerns. He believes so much in that world that he made us believe in it too.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on April 21, 2013, 03:49:15 AM
thanks


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 21, 2013, 07:47:26 AM
I have seen that claim by Bernardo Bertolucci (BB) many times (he says it on the OUATITW dvd, don't remember if it's in a bonus feature or on the commentary), and Frayling has quoted him. Personally, I think it's a dubious claim. I wasn't there at the time, but, I mean, Leone had probably seen all the Westerns BB had seen. BB wrote the treatment, not the screenplay.
 True, I recall that Frayling says that the treatment was 300 pages long (which I imagine is enormous for a treatment, therefore allowing for far more references than a typical treatment would allow); and we don't know how much of the treatment remained in the final screenplay by Donati and Leone. However, so many of the references are visual. And how could Bertolucci stick such details into a treatment about a movie that is a homage to the AW without Leone realizing that the detail is meant as a reference?
eg. if the treatment mentioned that the house had a stump in the front yard, or that Timmy McBain mimes shooting the shotgun (both references to Shane), wouldn't Leone have realized this is supposed t be a reference to an AW -- especially considering that, as we said, this movie is all about a homage to the AW! I can't imagine that a treatment would contain that level of detail (which I assume is usually not present in a treatment), and they remained in the final script, without Leone realizing they were meant to be a reference. of course it's quite possible that BB may have snuck a few in, but the way he'd have us believe, that he snuck in a significant amount, sounds to me to be quite implausible. (Of course, the only way to find out for sure is if a copy of the treatment could be obtained [IF ONLY...]). Till then, I'll say BB is probably full of shit.

I remember that the author of the Watchdog article about the various versions of OUATITW (that Jordan Krug posted on a sticky thread on the OUATITW board -- it's the last page of the article) speculated that perhaps BB is making this claim because he is bitter over the fact that after he wrote the treatment (with Argento, of course,) Leone then went to Donati and asked him to write the screenplay (along with Leone), rather than asking BB himself to develop his treatment into a screenplay. It's an interesting theory, but, whatever the truth is behind BB's reasoning, I say: BB, you have made great contributions to cinema, and forgive me if I'm wrong, but you are full of shit.

As I said, the best (and perhaps only) way to know for sure is to obtain a copy of that treatment (and, if possible, the screenplay as well), and compare. Maybe BB owns a copy of the treatment, and that could prove his point. But if that's not in existence, at the very least, I would love it if someone would actually ask BB if he can name some of the references he supposedly snuck in. I'd like to hear what his answer would be to that question.

And if anyone here has contact with Frayling, that would be a great question to ask him, if he owns a copy of the treatment or knows someone who does.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on April 21, 2013, 09:39:20 AM
I'll say BB is probably full of shit.
No "probably" about it pard. He's so full of it his eyes are brown.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: drinkanddestroy on September 09, 2013, 02:02:41 AM
When Cheyenne swings the light in the trading post and it casts a swinging shadow of Harmonica – it's been mentioned before that http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=4281.msg154729#msg154729 it's a similar moment to one in Firecreek.

But what I don't recall being mentioned before is the possibility that the swinging lamp and shadow is a reference to the scene in Psycho in which Vera Miles discovers Mrs. Bates http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an4HXLELr64
As we know from the belt/suspenders line from Ace in the Hole, some of the quotations in OUATITW may have been to non-Westerns. (Frayling does not mention the swinging lamp reference in his book Once Upon a Time in Italy, which has a big list of all the quotations in OUATITW.)


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on September 09, 2013, 04:26:49 AM
Its also at the end of Red River & Noir Desperate.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Cusser on September 09, 2013, 07:18:06 AM
drinkanddestroy - PM sent


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on November 26, 2014, 11:59:44 AM
I pasted our list on IMDb Westerns Board here is a new suggestion

Samoan Bob » 12 hours ago (Tue Nov 25 2014 22:26:18)

Good list. I've always thought that Cheyenne's death scene might be slightly inspired by Joel McCrea's in Ride the High Country. They both tell their friends to leave because they don't want their friends to watch them die. Might be a common trope but no other examples come to mind at the moment.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on November 26, 2014, 04:13:57 PM
I'd buy that for a dollar.  O0


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: stanton on November 27, 2014, 05:10:44 AM
Never thought of that, but this is at least a possible and not too far fetched inspiration, unlike many if not most of the others.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on January 20, 2015, 05:12:03 PM
from disinterested_spectator on IMDb


Toward the end of The Plainsman, Gary Cooper dresses up in black and enters the bar, looking a lot like Frank when he enters the bar and tries to buy back the land from Harmonica. He even sits in the chair the way Frank does.

Then there is Harmonica’s hat, which has a little piece missing from the brim, just like the hat he wore in The Magnificent Seven (1960).

The way Frank slowly dismounts just before the climactic gunfight seems to quote Shane in the way Wilson dismounts when he and Shane size each other up outside Starrett’s house. Finally, and this may be a bit of a stretch, Cheyenne’s preference for coffee reminds me of Wilson’s similar preference in the same movie.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on January 21, 2015, 06:40:12 AM
from disinterested_spectator on IMDb
Finally, and this may be a bit of a stretch, Cheyenne’s preference for coffee reminds me of Wilson’s similar preference in the same movie.
You could say the same about Randolph Scott in Seven Men From Now; or, probably, any number of 50s Westerns. It's amazing how important coffee is in U.S. cinema throughout the period.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: drinkanddestroy on February 25, 2016, 08:10:28 AM
Western reference in FAFDM (but I will mention it here cuz I don't know if we have an approprite thread for that):

In Texas (1941), there is a scene where William Holden is running away from people chasing him; he runs through a second-floor hotel room, there is a sheriff in the bath, and he says, "Pardon me, Sheriff!"


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: dave jenkins on February 25, 2016, 08:20:09 AM
Western reference in FAFDM (but I will mention it here cuz I don't know if we have an approprite thread for that):

In Texas (1941), there is a scene where William Holden is running away from people chasing him; he runs through a second-floor hotel room, there is a sheriff in the bath, and he says, "Pardon me, Sheriff!"
Hmmm, maybe we should start another thread?


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: cigar joe on February 25, 2016, 09:06:09 AM
Yea I know there are more.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: Herry Grail on July 05, 2016, 09:03:18 PM
Not a reference to a Western, but I've watched the OUATITW several times now, and every time Jack Elam lifelessly drops his forearm on the station master's shoulder—rather than grabbing it with his hand like anyone else would—I immediately think that's exactly what Boris Karloff did (though from behind) upon seeing Basil Rathbone for the first time in "Son of Frankenstein," a culty entry in that series. Maybe he did it in other films too as the monster, but I really remember it in SOF.

It's funny to remember that, but I guess it was kind of an iconic gesture and I don't remember seeing it done in any other films.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 05, 2016, 10:19:07 PM
You could say the same about Randolph Scott in Seven Men From Now; or, probably, any number of 50s Westerns. It's amazing how important coffee is in U.S. cinema throughout the period.

Also the Walter Brennan character in THE FAR COUNTRY, as well as, like you says, many many many others.

One interesting point RE: the SHANE comparison: Usually, when coffee is mentioned in Westerns, it's outdoors: when people are riding in the desert - a wagon train, cattle drive, sitting around campfire at night, bivouaced etc.. But the SHANE connection with OUATITW is that those are two Westerns I can think of (though I am sure there are more) where there is an emphasis on coffee INDOORS: in OUATITW, it's Cheyenne drinking it in Jill's home; in SHANE, it's Palance drinking it inside the pub.


Btw, RE: SHANE: I think that Palance drinking coffee, rather than the more typical whiskey, shows control, class, of the villain. (
(Cheyenne, like most Western gunslingers who like coffee, likes it IN ADDITIOn to whiskey; with Palance, he explicitly rejects the whiskey and aska for coffee.) Sure, there are many villains who drink. But then, when you have a villain who explicitly rejects it, where you  get the feeling it's not that he is a pussy; quite the opposite - he certainly can drink, but is smart enough not to; he knows what drink does and rejects it, that self-control - it brings a certain "class," or more importantly, a certain toughness, to the character. This guy's business is too important, he is too smart, to risk drinking and not having his head clear. In one sense, there is a certain coolness to a character who drinks; but in another way to look at it, the best villain, the toughest, is not one who is wild and lets his desires get the better of him, but one who is cool and in control. Similarly, there are movies where the protagonist gets the babes, and then you have movies like the Dollar films where the protagonist doesn't touch a babe - he is too careful to be distracted from doing what is necessary to get what is important - a fistful of dollars.

Just pointing out the two different approaches to showing a villain's toughness: Indulging his desires or controlling them. Not that either one is necessarily better. Just two different approaches. With Leone, we know that his  characters drink (although TMWNN less than others) but do not waste their time with women. At least in the Dollars films, which is Leone-created original characters; it isn't until OUATITW - Leone's homage to the AW, with characters inspired from the AW - that his characters show an interest in a woman.


Title: Re: 30 Westerns in Once
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 26, 2016, 10:19:29 PM
Not sure if this was ever mentioned, but perhaps Cheyenne's line at the end, asking Harmonica to go away and not watch him die, is a reference to Doc Holliday's (also played by Jason Robards) line at the end of Hour of the Gun: When Wyatt Earp (James Garner) visits Doc at the sanitarium, Doc says, "Do me a favor, will you get out of here? Come on, don't hang around."