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Films of Sergio Leone => Other Films => Topic started by: cigar joe on December 31, 2004, 06:48:35 AM



Title: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on December 31, 2004, 06:48:35 AM
These films should really be judged in a different Sub Genre amongst only themselves. There are a number of board members who dislike the Zapata''s.

I''ve seen enough of them now (except Duck You Sucker)to be able to get a feel for them what I lack is, besides Leone''s film, is recent views of the AW equivalents Villa Rides, Pancho Villa, Viva Villa, and some others.

I''ll try and do something with this when I can.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: redyred on December 31, 2004, 09:01:30 AM
Agreed, I don''t really put them in the same category as ordinary SWs at all. I think they seem to have a higher "hit rate" than the average spaghetti though. Bullet for the General, Professional Gun and Companeros are among the best films of the SW boom.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on December 31, 2004, 10:12:13 AM
Yea doing a bit of research and I think that the AW''s to view for a comprehensive overlook are the following:

Viva Villa (1934) Wallace Beery Fay Wray & Leo Carillo, I remember this one Berry is a great actor, allways enjoyed him this was the first major Hollywood treatment of the Mex Rev.

Viva Zapata (1952) Marlon Brando & Anthony Quinn

Villa Rides (1968) (Get a lod of this cast!) Yul Brynner, Robert Mitchum, Charles Bronson, John Ireland, Jill Ireland, Herbot Lom, Frank Wolff, Frenando Rey, and with the screen play by Sam Peckinpah, and Chinatown''s Robert Towne.

100 Rifles (1969) Jim Brown, Bert Reynolds, Raquel Welch, Frenando Lamas, Eric Braden, and Aldo Sambrell.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: spag fan on January 02, 2005, 07:52:08 AM
I caught 100 Rifles on AMC a couple of weeks ago. I didn''t find it to be very impressive. I was hoping for better. Maybe I need to see it again though.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on January 02, 2005, 09:52:10 AM
100 Rifles--I''m not sure if the AMC version was cut or not. I''ll have to check. Supposed to be 110 minutes I suspect some of Raquel''s  shower scene was trimmed ;D. Its not a serious film but not pure crap either, some of the action sequences were good as well as the town set and the train wreck, love those trains, lol.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: The Smoker on January 02, 2005, 12:10:00 PM
 

Villa Rides (1968) (Get a lod of this cast!) Yul Brynner, Robert Mitchum, Charles Bronson, John Ireland, Jill Ireland, Herbot Lom, Frank Wolff, Frenando Rey, and with the screen play by Sam Peckinpah, and Chinatown''''s Robert Towne.

Caught the second half of Villa Rides once. Actually it took me years to find out what it was called. (No Internet at the time) Had a big GBU like bridge sequence in it, with Michum in a bombing bi-plane, who looked suspiciously like Indiana Jones (Panama, Brown Leather Flyin  Jacket, Khaki Pants).. . .or is that the other way around.  ;)

Remember the Bronson charactor havin a amusing one liner catchphrase, when complainng about the food cook-up by the rebel army chief, Before chuckin the fowl concoction out of the window. Several times throught the movie ;D

Love to see it again just for the cast.. alot more spaghetti staples than id known at the time.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on September 24, 2005, 01:49:09 PM
Think we should have a thread dedicated to the great "Zapata Westerns".

I'm going to collect a few outstanding examples and review them here.

Perhaps the touchstone grand-daddy of them all was MGM's 1934 "Viva Villa" (Black & White) starring Wallace Beery, directed by Jack Conway & Howard Hawks. Its a fictionalized account of Pancho Villa's life, but it does hit some of the major plot points of the real life Villa, however it doesn't even mention Villa's invasion and bank robbery of Columbus, New Mexico and the subsequent unsuccessfull pursuit by General John Pershing into Mexico. Its shot partially in Mexico and in actuality only about 15 years after the events portrayed. This film in parts has a very SW feel to it.

A little sample from the beginning:

A decree is posted on a tree a priest reads it to the peons, their land is being taken over by the local Don, the peons ask the priest what can they do, the priest says "pray".

A boy watches his peon father get whipped to death for questioning the take over of the peons land by a wealthy Don. In a dark alley the boy stabbs the whipman in the back and scrambles up into the hills. Thirty some odd years later he rides down as badit chief Pancho Villa.

The following scene is indicative of the tone of the film.
We see a courtroom, on a bench six peon prisoners,  one is picking his nose, lol, his finger must be up to the second knuckle, lol.   

Into the courtroom enters Don Pablo he goes up to the judge and gives him a mirror and with a wink & a nod tells him to look at the back which must hold a risque' image, (signifying the decadence of the aristocracy no doubt, lol). The Judge thanks the Don and proceeds to say that we don't need to clutter up the day with a trial these men are guilty. The six are then strung up on a gallows outside.

We see a shot of peons looking at the dead men whose feet swing in the foreground, we then hear shots and cut to a bandit army overthrowing the town.  Pancho Villa rides up bandolier over one shoulder (Beery resembles the real Villa, contemporary describers of Berry have described him as looking like an overstuffed laundry bag, lol), and we get a close up of Berry as he looks at the dead men and growls "cut them down".

We cut back to the courtroom, in burst Villa's men and his right hand man Sierra (Leo Carrillo who's character is probably based on the butcher Fierro) takes a bead on Don Miguel, and shoots him as he stands huddled with the rest of the officials on the dias. Sierra then shoots down Don Pablo. Villa runs into the courtroom and yells out "Sierra, you wait!"
 
Pancho turns back towards the outside he yells "bring them in". We see peons carring the hanged men into the courtroom. Villa, "put on the bench", cut to Villa standing alongside the bodies sitting on the bench "straighten them up"

Villa looks admiringly over the dead men, he smiles then shakes his head as he turms to the officials, "now everybody shut up," he first gestures lovingly to the deadmen, then with an angry look at the officials  states "we're going to have a trial".
Judge, runs up to a railing "I'm a government official and I demand to be heard"
Pancho, "well, ah fine, you go head and talk....., there is the jury" gesturing to the deadmen.
Judge, "I was only doing my duty..."
Pancho interupts "DUTY!,"  Pancho turns and he talks to the jury, "jury, did you hear, he was just doing his duty" he chuckles.
Judge "these men were sent to me by Don Miguel for the crimes they committed."
Pancho "crimes what crimes?"
Another official hands Pancho a piece of paper saying "they are wrote out in full".
Pancho exagerates opening the paper looking at it turning it over, and showing it to the jury, he chuckles again and shrugs "sorry I ... I do not read," he hands the paper to the judge, "perhaps you should read it to the jury they have ears same as you have but..."  and his voice changes into a growl, "perhaps they DON"T HEAR SO GOOD NOW!, so read LOUD, LOUD!"
Judge, "but this is outrageous, I demand Justice, Justice!"

BANG the judge is shot in the back by Sierra.

Pancho sarcastically, "Sierra now why didn't you let him finnish," Pancho gestures to the jury, "now you spoiled the trial."
Sierra, "I do not like, it take too long."
Pancho, "Well then we'll hurry, now this is the law of Pancho Villa's court, TWO FOR ONE, understand, for every peon killed I will kill two major domos or the best that I can find".

Sierra starts to go for his gun, Pancho stops him, "one moment Sierra.." Pancho turns to the jury "any objections from the jury?" he elaborately gestures as he walks along the jury line bending toward them and  cupping his hand to his ear, straining to hear, "no?", he turns back and shrugs his shoulders to Sierra "no objections from the jury". Pancho points his thumb over his shoulder as he orders Sierra "you finnish", then Villa walks out of the frame as Sierra and his men execute the rest of the officials.

Anytime Beery is on, its a scream, just hilarious, his portrayal of Villa is as memorable and as loveable as Eli Wallach's Tuco. Beery portrayed the loveable rascal/rogue, in most of his films and its a pitty that a lot of his work is unavailable or hard to find. He should have won an oscar for this role. Another sad factor is most all of his work was in B&W, so you may catch one of his performances occasionally on cable on TMC, if you are lucky.

It has a sidestory with an American reporter Johnny Skyes (Stuart Erwin(obviously base on real American Reporter Reed)) that is also humorous in the way Villa and the reporter interact. Fay Wray makes an appearnce as a possible love interest that goes fatally wrong which culminates in a major plot point Other love interests plotss are kept to a minimum thankfully, and there is a running gag on all the women Pancho has married (one in every town and village) in order to get in the sack with them.
 
Its a typical Hollywood vehicle with a twist but its a hoot. The fact that it was a western about Villa freed it somewhat from the typical manifest destiny theme and Hollywood melodramatic moralising.

I picked this up used (release date was 1993) available on VHS on Amazon, there are more listed some of the are listed on ebay too. Good stuff



Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on September 27, 2005, 05:00:57 AM
In the cue (lineup).

Continuing on the "Zapatas" I've managed to find and order "Viva Zapata" with Marlon Brando & Anthony Quinn, and "Bandidos" with Robert Mitchum so I'll post more as things progress.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on September 28, 2005, 04:54:48 AM
More V V

Watched V V again last night, its almost a blueprint for the latter spaghetti zaps, it even has the main theme for "A Bullet for The General" in one sequence where the peons are singing in the bg (I think it was a real Mexican Revolutionary anthem).

The film also makes the claim that the well known song "La Cucaracha" (The Cockroach) was Villa's theme song, don't know if this is true or just fanicfull hollywood bs.

It was also a fairly big budget film for its day thousands of extras in the battle scenes. Its got the old timey, superimposed, script explanations between some of the scenes giving a bridge to some of the sequences. 

Again Beery is great as Villa, its got some good running gags between Villa and the American Reporter, & Villa and Sierra and Villa and his last wife Rosita.  Some unavoidable shmaltzy stuff between Villa and Madero, who he refers to as "the little fellow".  Villa, for all the real life take no prisoners tactics is in the end treated as a hero. Again worth checking out as an early "seed" for Spaghetti & Zapata Westerns.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on October 03, 2005, 05:28:51 AM
Update,
Was gone for the weekend but when I returned a DVD of "Viva Zapata" was sitting in the mail box, will have a viewing soon.  ;D


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on October 03, 2005, 09:50:06 PM
Ok watched my DVD of "Viva Zapata" (1952) directed by Elia Kazan, screenplay by John Stienbeck, starring Marlon Brando, Anthony Quinn, Jean Peters, Joseph Wiseman.

If "Viva Villa" (1934)  was the blueprint for the "fun" Zapata Western, then the same could be said that "Viva Zapata" was the outline of the serious Zapata Western. So in these two films we have a ying/yang treatment of the MexRev.

This film is not played for any type of humor, its serious drama throughout and more indepthly character driven than the more lighthearted romp Viva Villa. You could almost sight the similar difference between GBU & OUTITW both epics but very different in tone. Both films take place during the similar time period of the MexRev during the overthrow of Diaz. While Viva Villa takes place in the north in Sonora, Viva Zapata is set in Morelos. Both films have very similar plots.

A group of peons have an audience with Diaz and explain that their corn fields have been fenced off from them and planted with cane. They have their deeds with them, Diaz says they must find their boundary stones they say they cannot access the land to find them because they will be arrested. One of the more outspoken peons is Zapata who realizes that Diaz won't help them, so he leads an issurection with his more fiery and slightly out of control brother played by Anthony Quinn. The battle scenes are well done. There is an attack on a train sequence where they load a flatcar with explosives and let bit roll into an approaching supply train. The general cinematography is good its B&W but you wish this film was shot in color. Again its far more serious than most Spaghetti Zapatas (which tend to lean towards characters that are caricatures), this film treats all subjects and relationships equally in manner, and again its dialogue driven rather than style driven.

Brando plays and looks like convincing peon, Anthony Quinn is also fantastic and even more convincing as Efumio Zapata his brother, Wiseman plays a newspaper man/political agitator who loyalty is mercurial, towards the end of the film he comes off as some kind of behind the scenes trator/manipulator. Jean Peters plays Zapata's love interest and eventual wife.

So we have two branches in the Zapata Western family tree and just a quick initial placement of the ones I've watched will look like this:

ZAPATA WESTERNS :                                    
Viva Villa :   The Mercenary ,   Companeros                  

Viva Zapata:  A Bullet for The General,  Tepepa     

         






Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on October 04, 2005, 06:48:16 PM
Ok more thoughts on Viva Zapata, thinking back there was a bit of humor, it takes place when peon Zapata is trying to win the hand of his love interest, it occurs during a sort of question and answer game that she and her gaurdians play with Brando, he answers some questions in ways that make the women "hot" and they obviously perspire and they fan themselves to cool off, it is kind of a cute little segment.

One thing I've noticed also is this film tends to seem longer than Viva Villa but its actually shorter by 2 minutes, the funnier flick just rolls along at a better pace.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on October 06, 2005, 04:45:12 AM
Next up Bandido:

Bandido (1956) Dir Richard Fliesher, Robert Mitchum, Gilbert Roland, Ursula Thiess, this is the first Hollywood treatment in color and that addition really adds to the genre up to this point where the previous films were shot in B&W.

This time the emphasis is not on the Mexican main figures of the MexRev but on the minor players, the revolutionary is Col. Escobar (Gilbert Roland), the "outsider" charater is played by gunrunner Wilson (Mitchum) and he is in competition with another gunnrunner Kenedy played by Zachary Scott and his wife Lisa played by Thiess. Mitchum basically plays both ends against the middle, but the story is bogged down somewhat by the love story between Wilson and Lisa Kennedy. The plot revolves around a shipment of guns and ammo and another of explosives and gasoline on two barges secreted in a lagoon.

This time the action is in a beautiful coastal area of Mexico it does have some well staged action sequences Mitchun's main armaments are grenades, he has his coat pockets (he is first seen dressed in a white suit), and a suitcase full of them, that come in handy in various situations. Roland's Escobar is played with dignity and not a caracature.

If you are a train buff there are some great shots of an attack on a  N de M ferrocarril steamengine passenger train, good stuff.

In this film you can see the first inklings of the outlines of the SW's to come. Its not as entertaining as Viva Villa  but the color cinamatography is beatiful, too bad this is a VHS non letterbox print.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on October 06, 2005, 05:01:32 AM
I also reread some of C. Frayling's chapter on the Zapatas and he goes into a lot of detail on Viva Zapata, and Kazan's treatment of the story, in VZ Zapata is treated las a harmless rebel a man of individual consience, against a harmful revolutionary (Fernando) so this in fact reflects the political opinion of early 1950's America. Frayling also goes into some of the contrasts between the real Zapata and the one portrayed by Brando, (apparently he was not an illiterate peasant but a litterate tenant farmer, and he also fathered bastards all over Mexico, lol, so the love interest in nthe story was also mostly bogus.

Its interesting, anyway check these out if you can.

I'll try and pick up Villa Rides and give my review of it when I can. Some also rans, a couple of other films are "the Treasure of Pancho Villa" with Rory Calhoun, and "Villa" with Brian Kieth, though I'm not inclined to go out of my way or spend a lot of $ to get a hold of. I managed to get V V, VZ, and Bandido all together for about $30.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on October 08, 2005, 11:55:19 AM
This little exercise is a good primer leading up to the eventual R1 release of "Duck You Sucker", which I really have never seen widescreen, (I barely remember seeing it on TV & pan & scan long ago so it will be a treat to follow this progression right up to it  8).

The Zapatas are such a rather small niche in the SW/AW genre that you can easily get a good handel on their development rather cheaply with the offereings available on Amazon or on eBay. Next to get will be Villa Rides.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on October 17, 2005, 06:04:54 AM
We have a great little used book store here in the Hudson Valley, it's only name is "Books" and it looks like an old factory building but its interior is a mase of rooms and passages that sort out different subjects. Managed to find a book on the history of Mexico that sheds a lot of light on the MexRev.

The book is "A History of Mexico" by Henry Banford Parkes, I finally got a good understanding of what was going on and in the next few days I'll add to this mono-thread, lol, guess I'm breakin' trail on this topic.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on October 17, 2005, 05:58:15 PM
A brief history of MexRev:

Diaz had been in power in Mexico from the end of 1876. A group called the cientificos represented the generation that grew up since the Reform.

They believed above all things in progress by science, and in material developement. Development that would be neasured by the output of mines and factories, and the mileage of railroads and telegraph lines. The regarded Mexicans as a backwards race, Mexico should be governed by white men and it should be civilized by foreign capitol. Towards the end of Diaz reign they began to surround the dictator functioning as the intermediaries in the imposition of Anglo-Saxon capitalism upon Mexico.

The Diaz government had originally been a mestizo government, Diaz, a majority of his cabinet and the state governors had been mestizos. For 46 years Diaz had never lost a bond of sympathy with the Indian peasants among whom he had been born. During its last decade the Diaz administration became increasingly creole, creoles who had entered the country since the independence (Maximillian).

Mexican capatilism was imposed upon the hacienda system under which half the rural population was bound to dept-slavery. The task of destroying the hacienda and of rescuing the indians from peonage was a dream of the Reform but it had never been accomplished.

Instead of breaking up the haciendas among small Indian owners the Reform had mearly transfered them to the greedy mestizos. The result was that by 1910 nearly half of Mexico belonged to less than 3000 families, while of the ten million Mexicans engaged in agriculture, nine and a half million were without land.

The new industialization however created a new class, the working class who were paid more and began to learn new ideas. At the same time patriotic Mexicans began to resent the privilages given to foreign capitol.

American interests included the enormous Hearst cattle ranches along the US border, the Guggenheim metalurgical interests, US Steel, Anaconda Corp., Standard Oil, owned 3/4 of the mines, and more than half the oil fields, investments amounting to more than a billion dollars.

English interests were oil, precious metals, sugar , and coffee. The French owned most of the textile mills. The Spanish monopolized retail trade, acquired large haciendas , and owned tobacco fields.

The railroads, considered the greatest achievement of Diaz's dictatorship had not been supervised by the Mexican Government, the American builders had chosen their own routes, connecting Mexico City with the US, while the remainder of the country was still dependent on mule caravans.

Mexicans were used only as unskilled labor. Mexicans who struck for higher wages or who complained were shot down. Staring in 1907 Mexico was less prosperous,  in 1909 there was a bad harvest, the peasants were dying of hunger.

In a serious miscalculation Diaz gave an interview to American reporter Creelman. In it Diaz said that his purpose was to guide Mexico to democracy, and tha Mexico was now ready for freedom. It was only concieved for American consumption but it reached the people of Mexico. 

This stirred up opposition. Francisco Madero founded a newspapaer and organized an anti-re-electionist clubs. A convention was held in April 1910 at which Madero was nominated for the presidency. In May 30,000 Madero supporters demonstrated  outside the National Palace. In June Madero was thrown in jail.

 


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on October 17, 2005, 06:02:57 PM
The image below is a visual aid to the Mexican Revolution the map is based on an 1890 railway map of Mexico.

(http://img420.imageshack.us/img420/9359/mexmap19100wz.jpg)


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on October 17, 2005, 07:31:17 PM
MexRev Phase 1

Follow the action by the numbers.

1. Madero's political activities end with him in prison.
2. His family bails him out of prison after Diaz is re-
    elected, and Madero slips into the US. He sets up
    shop in San Antonio, Texas. There he calls for a
    general uprising on November 20th. Promised an
    armed force Madero re-enters Mexico in
    the state of Coahuila, he finds 25 men waiting for him
    half of them unarmed. He heads back into Texas. In
    Jalisco, Tlaxcala, and the Federal District there were
    futile uprisings easily suppressed. In despair Madero
    heads for New Orleans and plans to sail for Europe.
3. In Chihuahua a state of cattle ranches ruled & owned
    by the Terrazas family. In 1910 its governor was
    Alberto Terraxas, a young man who had seduced his
    own niece. Abraham Gonzalez recruited bodies of
    cavalry among the vaqueros and he discovered
    able guerrilla leaders. In southern Chihuahua a
    storekeeper Pascual Orozco, took command and with
    him was a bandit chieftain who as a boy had
    escaped from peonage on a hacienda in
    Durango, knew every inch of Chihuahua, and had
    made himself a local hero by rustling Terrazas cattle,
    he was Pancho Villa. On November 27 Orozco
    defeated the federales at Pedernales. Orozco & Villa
    controled southern Chihuahua, and they rode
    northwards cutting the rail line between Chihuahua
    City and Ciudad Juarez. Madero joins the rebels in
    Chihuahua. As this news spreads there are more
    rebellions. In Morelos Emiliano Zapata, begins to
    recruit Indian peons from the sugar plantations and   
    attacks haciendados.
4. Gonzales, Orozco, and Villa besiege General Navarro
    in Ciudad Juarez in March.
5. In April 1911 guerillas attack in Sonora, Sinaloa,   
    Durango, Puebla, Guerrero, Vera Cruz, Tabasco,
    Oxaca, and Yucatan. The US government amasses 
    20,000 troops along the border. A short armistice
    disintergrates when the federales and the
    revolutionaries outside Ciudad Juarez begin to shoot
    at each other.
6. The shooting turns into a general battle Orozco and
    Villa begin to take the town street by street blowing
    holes in walls with dynamite, on May 10th Navarro
    surrenders. Madero saves Navarro from a firing
    squad by personally conducting hin across the border.
    Orozco and Villa then attempt to arrest Madero.
    Madero saves himself by haranguing their troops.
7. Zapata and his peon army take the town of Cuautla
    in Morelos. State captitols begin to fall to guerrilla
    leaders and mobs. On May 12 in Ciudad Juarez at
    10:30 PM over a table lit up by the arc-lights of
    automobiles an agreement for the resignation of Diaz
    is signed. Francisco de la Bara was to become
    provisinal president and after an election Madero
    would succeed him.
8. On May 26 Diaz leaves Mexico City on a train for Vera
    Cruz and eventually Europe.

   


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on October 18, 2005, 08:56:38 PM
MexRev Phase II

Follow the action by the numbers again  8)

1. De la Barra as provisional president ment that the
    original drive of the revolution was checked. The
    revolutionary troops and the guerrillas were
    disbanded. Mexico would have to wait for a new
    president and the slow process of legal reforms. 
    Madero took office on November 6 and the Mexican
    people expected miracles, but none came. Zapata in   
    Morelos waited for the fulfilment of the Plan of San
    Luis Potosi which contained a clause promising the
    restoration to the Indian villages of the land illegally
    taken from them. At the end of November Zapata, 
    standing on a table in a mountian hut proclaimed that
    the peasants must take the land themselves and
    guard them with arms in their hands. Madero sends
    generals to Morelos.
2. Orozco revolts in Chihuahua in February 1912,
    Madero sends General Salas against him, Salas is
    defeated, he is succeded by General Victoriano
    Huerta, a heavy drinker, Huerta crushes the rebellion
    and Orozco flees to exile in Arizona. Villa at this time
    had entered the legitimate meat business in
    Chihuahua. During this rebellion Villa loyal to Madero
    had actually served under Huerta, during the rebellion
    Huerta ordered that Villa should be court martialed
    and shot for disobedience. Madero reprieves Villa and
    he is imprissioned in Mexico City. Villa escapes to
    coast and flees to Texas.
3. In Vera Cruz Felix Diaz nephew of Porfirio rebells but
    is captured and condemmed to death by court
    martial, Madero refuses to have him shot and puts
    him in prison. US ambassador reports to Washington
    that Madero did not propose to grant favors to
    American capitol and that Mexico was "seething with
    discontent". President Taft stations 100,000 troops
    along the border, and American gun-runners are
    shipping arms to Zapata.
4. Feburary 9-18, a coup d'etat by Reyes & Felix Diaz &
    generals against Madero, Huerta betrays both sides
    and positions himself as provisional president.
    In the history of villians of Mexican Revolution Huerta
    was the worst. An able general with a magnetic
    personality, but also a drunkard, and a dope
    addict. On the evening of the 22nd Madero and his
    vice president Suarez were taken out of their
    carriages and shot. Official;y is was reported that an
    armed force attempted to rescue them and they were
    accidently killed in the confusion.
     
(http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/1945/mexmap19144rv.jpg)

5. On Feburary 19 in the state of Coahuila, Venustiano
    Carranza announced that he would not recognize
    Huerta as president. Carranza had a small body of
    troops commanded by Pablo Gonzalez.

to be continued....


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on October 22, 2005, 08:35:54 AM
Continued....
5. Gonzales however only met with defeat Carranza
    assumes the title of First Chief of the Constitutional
    Army.
6. In Sonora however Alvaro Obergon and Roberto
    Presquiera rebel on Feb., 26 and with able
    lieutenants Elias Calles, Benjamin Hill, Savator
    Alverado and Francisco Serrano capture all of Sonora
    except  the town of Guayamas.
7. The Sonoran Gov. also recognizes Carranza as "First
    Chief". Carranza heads to Sonora across the
    mountians of Durango & Sinaloa and establishes
    himself in Nogales.
8. Villa at midnight on March 13, 1913 swims his horse
    across the Rio Grande and recruits an army from
    among the vaqueros of Chihuahua., in the spring and
    summer Villa defeats the federales in six pitched
    battles and took control of all the state except the
    cities. In Autumn Villa takes Ciudad Juarez by
    steaming right into town on a troop train. He then
    steams south and takes Chihuahua City.
9. In the south Zapata's insurrection spreads to the
    seacoast and into Puebla. They were never an army
    per se, but they burnt the haciendas and
    redistributed the land taking up arms only to defend
    land as they spread.

To be continued......


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on October 24, 2005, 07:38:21 PM
Follow the action continues.....

10. US involvement in the revolution was the last thing
      most Mexican Revolutionaries wanted. To protect
      Americans, and American interests and investments
      of the Rockerfellers (Standard Oil) the Guggenheims
      (metalurgical) the Hearsts (cattle ranches) and
      others the US places an arms embargo on Mexico,
      this opened up the market to arms dealers from
      around the world, though a lot of illeagal arms deals
      still went through the US borders. A crew from an
      American Warship is arrested in Tampico and the US
      sends the fleet into the Gulf of Mexico and siezes
      Mexican Ports. General Huerta stupidly threatens to
      invade Texas, and Pres. Wilson lifts arms embargo.
      This greatly strengthens Villa and Obregon.
11. Obregon sweeps south of Sonora into Sinnaloa
      down to Jalisco.
12. Villa steams south in 5 troop trains takes the
      important railway town of Torreon, turns East &
      cleans out the rest of Coahuila of federal troops.
      Then continues South through Durango and captures
      Zacatecas.
13 .Villa and Carranza differences come to a head and
      they finally break appart from each other.
      Carranza is able to embargo Villas coal supply out of
      Coahuila. Villa without coal is stranded.
14  Obregon pushes through mountians and captures
      Guadalajara, then makes his way down the plateau
      to capture Queretaro. Huerta resigns office. End of
      MexRev Phase II.







Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on October 30, 2005, 03:20:12 PM
Here we go with MexRev Phase III

(http://img433.imageshack.us/img433/3875/mapmex191519174wo.jpg)


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on October 30, 2005, 04:56:09 PM
And again follow the numbers.....

1. Carranza is installed at the palace in Mexico City as a
    temporary provisional President.

2. At a meeting between Obergon and Villa they agree
    that Carranza should step down as soon as a
    president is chosen by a Constitutionalist
    Convention. This defuses the situation
    temporarily.

3. Maytorena the self exiled Governor of Sonora returns
    from Arizona recruits an army and resumes control.

4. Villa & Angeles side with Maytorena, Obregon returns
    goes to Chihuahua to again try and negotiate. Villa
    threatens to have him shot, Villa then changes his
    mind and lets him go back to Mexico City.

5. At the Constitutionalist Convention in Aguascalientes
    Gutierrez is named provisional president and
    he appoints Villa as his general.

6. Carranza heads for the recently evacuated by the US
    port of Vera Cruz,  Obregon begins to organize his
    army.

7. Zapata arrives in Mexico City with his army of
    peasants after the departure of Carranza.

8. In December 1914 Villa & Zapata meet for the first
    time in Xochimilco and they both ride side by side into
    the captitol.

9. In January 1915 Gutierrez flees Mexico City after he is
    implicated in a plot with the Carranistas.

10. Obregon defeats some Villista troops at Puebla and
      Villa retreats back to his main force at
      Aguascalientes. Angeles the only real military
      general with a military background in Villa's command
      urges Villa to immediately attack Carranza in Vera
      Cruz and cut off supplies to Obregon. Villa ignors
      this advice.

11. Zapata's peasant cavalry cuts off food supplies to
      Mexico City. But Villa wastes time attacking
      Carranistais in Coahuila and Nuevo Leon. Obregon
      resupplied and reorganized reconstitutes his supply
      routes. Zapata heads back to his guerrilla tactics.

12. Orgegon having studied military reports comming
      from Europe on the fighting that has broken out in
      France during WWI learns that with troops massed
      in trenches, barbed wire and plenty machinegun
      emplacements, massed cavalry charges that Villa is
      addicted too are rendered obsolite. Obregon picks
      the town of Celaya with its many irrigation ditches
      to set up deffences.

13. Villa attackes Celaya rather than just go around and
      cutting off Obregons supply routes. Three
      disasterous cavalry charges in three days. Villa
      sufferes major defeat.

14. Villa retreats fighting at Aguascalientes and Torreon
      his basic tactic of massed cavalry attacks no longer
      work. Villa continues to head North but his army is
      shrinking. The US is now backing Carranza

15. From his base in Chihuahua Villa decides to retreat
      to relatively peacful Sonora there he plans to raise
      money from cattle sales to US to finance arms &
      ammo. He undergoes a harsh winter march across
      the Sierras. General Fierro (The Butcher) rides his
      horse into a bog and both him and horse are sucked
      from sight. In Sonora he attempts to attack the state
      capitol at Hermisillo that has a garrison of
      Carranistas again with a mass cavalry attack
      and again he is defeated. In the meanwhile the US
      lets Obregon pass on trains through US teritory with
      6000 troops to fortify the Carranza garrison of
      1200 troops at the Mex/Arizona border town of
      Aguas Prieta. When Villa attacks he is supprised by
      the size of the garrison and he learns of the new US
      policy, he swears vengence against the US and US
      interests in Mexico.

16. Villa with whats left of his forces heads back across
      the Sierras to Chihuahua. In Chihuahau Villa sees
      the writting on the wall and disbands most of his
      army except his Dorados and vows to keep up a
      guerilla war against Carranza..... to be continued.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on October 31, 2005, 04:41:26 AM
Found another book on Villa that tells you eveything you've wanted to know and more about Villa its title is
"Life & Times of Pancho Villa" by Friedrich Katz this is a hefty volume 2 1/4 inches thick 900+ pages, lol, keeping me busy, but almost finnished now I can at least surmise what likely periods or Phases of the MexRev most of the Zapata's took in.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on November 06, 2005, 03:24:31 PM
MexRev Phase III continued.....

17. Villa figures out that in the same way the
      Carannza's camp benefitted by nationalistic 
      Mexican pride when the US temporarily took over
      the Mexican seaports, he would do the same in
      Chihuahua if he could get the US to invade. He
      attacks Columbus New Mexico.

18. General ohn Pershing with George S. Patton,
      invades Chihuahua on a wild goose chase with
      30,000 troops and a squardron of nine airplanes
      looking for Villa. Eventually US Mexican relations
      become strained and Pershing is limited by
      President Wilson to the area of northern Chihuahua
      which Villa stays out of he regains some of his     
      momentum and captures towns in Southern
      Chihuahua but a lot of his old generals are dead or
      deserted.

19. Zapata is tricked by a Carranza'General who to lay a
      trap for Zapata, actually ambushes his own men to
      prove that he wants to defect with his command he
      arranges a meeting place and assassinates Zapata.

20. Villa has trouble recruiting men after almost ten
      years of revolution, Chihuahua is depleted of cattle
      and rich haciendas from the war which were his
      sources of income for his men and for arms. he
      makes a mad 700 mile dash across the great Bolson
      de Mapimi desert with his band to the rich relatively
      untouched state of Coahuila and
      captures the town of Sabinas which sits astride the
      main railway link to the coal fields and near the oil
      fields of Tampico. Its a brilliant chess move and the
      provisional president who is in charge after
      Carannza's assasination offers a deal to Villa to lay
      down his arms in return for a hacienda and a
      government paid body guard in 1920. Villa is
      assassinated in 1923.
     


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on November 07, 2005, 09:16:54 PM
I have one correction, when Villa escapes from the Mexico City Jail he goes to the West coast to get a boat for the US and travels across Arizona & New Mexico to El Passo.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: mike siegel on November 14, 2006, 09:57:43 AM
(http://)http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1612/7186524/13731420/204859988.jpg


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on November 14, 2006, 03:20:54 PM
Fixed it for you, cool picture, give us some info about it ;-),  the image goes between the two sets of brackets.

 (http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1612/7186524/13731420/204859988.jpg)


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: mike siegel on November 15, 2006, 03:04:20 AM
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1612/7186524/13731420/204860008.jpg[img])


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: mike siegel on November 15, 2006, 03:06:36 AM
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1612/7186524/13731420/204860008.jpg


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: mike siegel on November 15, 2006, 03:07:21 AM
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1612/7186524/13731420/204860008.jpg[img])


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: mike siegel on November 15, 2006, 03:13:38 AM
Thanks Joe!
But.. Oh, well, I'm not the expert #1 when it comes to computer business.
I opened that picture trail thing yesterday, and now they're already deleted?
Is there anotherway of getting URL's ?

The pics show me (right) and members of our old gang.
In Germany we have quite a few club's celebrating and living the spirit of the old west. Once a year there's a big event where all clubs do meet for a weeks. At least 1000-2000 cowboys, indians, civil war soldiers, mountain men... and, veeery few, Mexicans. To be a Mexican is the best job - a lot of siesta, a LOT of fiesta, fighting the apaches here and there, dancing and women.

Help me get this picture working and there's more :)
Mike


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on November 15, 2006, 03:15:56 AM
lol, don't know what you are trying to do, in the brackets on each end it has to be img in one and /img in the other for the picture to show. ;D

The way I do it is pick on the icon that shows a picture above the smiley faces where you post a message then the brackets show up side by side, then you have to put your cursor in between them then paste the image link in between the brackets, or I think you can paste the image link first, then highlight it them pick the image icon.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: mike siegel on November 15, 2006, 03:16:36 AM
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1612/7186524/13731420/204860008.jpg)(http://)

next try. the pics ARE on the pic trail website. hope it doesn't say
'removed' again..
Sorry about the mess here, maybe the postings can be deleted..


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: mike siegel on November 15, 2006, 03:22:25 AM
Made it Ma! Top of the world!

By now I'm doing that kind of thing only every other two years since I moved away from Munich, where our club is located. We even have a ranch (no horses though).

The costumes me (left) and my generale are wearing are
vintage of course. The weapons too (reworked, so they can't fire live ammo - this is not the US :).
The machine gun is a Russian one from 1913.
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1612/7186524/13731420/204859993.jpg)(http://)


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: mike siegel on November 15, 2006, 03:25:23 AM
there's another one of me. greetings to the texans.(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1612/7186524/13731420/204860001.jpg)(http://)


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on November 15, 2006, 03:32:04 AM
Very cool, post more. The vintage costumes look great, tell us more too about the club sounds very interesting, how old is it, etc, .

And how are you guys fairing over there with the dearth of Westerns nowadays?

To post a link pick the globe image above the smileys and insert the link between the brackets.  ;)


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: mike siegel on November 15, 2006, 04:09:39 AM
I have to make some research :)
Guess our club (Colorado Boys Munich) was founded about 40 years ago. 'Generale Chuchillo Ramon Hernandez' aka as Helmut is one of my best friends and also one of the biggest collectors worldwide of Clint & Italian Westerns.
The gunbelt was a birthday present to me 10 years ago. He handmade it in the 70's with Eastwoods as blueprint.
The pic trail have a forum URL. I'll try it now :)

(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1612/7186524/13731420/205090896.jpg)


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on November 15, 2006, 04:13:42 AM
nice gunbelt, nice workmanship


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: mike siegel on November 15, 2006, 04:23:41 AM
It's even older - 50 years next year.

]] (http://www.colorado-boys-muenchen.de/[url=http://)http://www.colorado-boys-muenchen.de/http://

The website is just unfolding (only one pic in the album) as I see.

Anyway, The idea was and is to live like the guys and dolls did 100+ years ago. The Indians (we don't have any, thanks to god) take it veeery seriousely. I mean you then behave like them - not talking, straight face...
The mountain men are great but I prefer to watch Dan Haggerty (no smells on TV).
Cowboys are great of course (and the least in a historical way, after all, everbody wants to be a cowboy).
We Mexicans of course are a different brand. We try to understand to country and its people and history. Most of us have spent time there. I myself could never pretend to be a Mexican, thanks to the Italian Western (and history of course) I found my place as a halfbreed so to speak. The gringo who became a Mexican. Like if MERCENARIO would have stayed there and adapted over the years. Or, come to think of it, like Sam Peckinpah. Mexico is like Africa. The minute you're there, you either fall in love with it or you cry for your home.
I LOVE it.
That's me in Agua Verde. Actually it's the Hacienda Cienega Del Carmen near Parras. That's between Torreon and Saltillo. I shot a film about Peckinpah there. It was Villas location for some battles and it was Peckinpah's location for the WILD BUNCH. I found a lot of ammo!

(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1612/7186524/13731420/205090903.jpg)


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on November 15, 2006, 04:46:08 AM
very cool Mike, keep posting, and tell us more about the film too  ;)


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: mike siegel on November 15, 2006, 05:04:24 AM
Parts of the film are included on the MAJOR DUNDEE DVD (another film about gringos in Mexico).
The main DVD will be out next year. Right now it plays internationally on festivals (Only ATLANTA so far in the US)      www.eldorado-film.de

Where are you located?


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on November 15, 2006, 06:04:05 PM
Quote
Where are you located?


Well right now New York, but I was in Montana for 24 years. ;-)

Nice website!

Where did you pck up the vintage costumes? They look pretty good.

Also add your expertice to the Zapata film reviews would like to hear your thoughts on them and any others that are not covered if you get the chance.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: Tim on November 17, 2006, 04:18:53 PM
Quote
Parts of the film are included on the MAJOR DUNDEE DVD (another film about gringos in Mexico).
The main DVD will be out next year. Right now it plays internationally on festivals (Only ATLANTA so far in the US)

  I thought your name sounded familiar, Mike!  I thought that part of your documentary on the MD dvd was great.  Found myself wishing I could see the whole thing.  Do you know when the main dvd will be officially released next year? I'm looking forward to it!


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: mike siegel on November 19, 2006, 04:39:51 PM
Howdy Tim!

great still. I have about 300 on DUNDEE - this one not :)
I have great problems with the film. Before the DVD we need to sell it to some (bigger) channel, to pay for the clips in the film. Although everybody seems to love it and it already plays internationally on Festivals, nobody wants to buy it.
Either way there'll be a DVD next year (not before spring). PASSION premiered in Munich last year. Along the festival launched the new DUNDEE cut in Europe, on a HUGE screen. That was something. Much better film now, isn't it?

(http://img451.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bts4kopieuh9.jpg][img]http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/6391/bts4kopieuh9.th.jpg)[/URL]
[/img]


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: mike siegel on November 19, 2006, 04:44:41 PM
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1612/7186524/13731420/206323301.jpg)


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: Tim on November 19, 2006, 11:09:32 PM
  Hi Mike, great photo there of Heston and Harris.  Thanks for sharing!  And I've always been a fan of Major Dundee, but I love it even more after seeing the Extended Version with those 12 additional minutes, especially the strategy scene toward the end.

  Keep us updated with your film and its dvd release.  I know I'm not the only Peckinpah fan around here who would be interested in buying a copy.  Good luck finding a bigger company!

  And thanks again for sharing that still!  Would love to see more if you don't mind posting them, but no pressure.   ;D


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: mike siegel on November 20, 2006, 03:07:40 AM
yeah, it's another film now. still only the mutilated version that made him shaking after the preview in 1964 ('it's only a movie, Sam..' 'It's my fucking life!');
but so much better than the version they then released. He probably (hopefully) never saw that.
The new soundtrack is better (especially since some scenes by now do not have any music anylonger - they don't need them - battle etc.) but sounds a bit like silent film music. still an improvement over 'Folllloow behind the major..' :)

Maybe you'd enjoy my book on Peckinpah (1050 stills)..

(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1612/7186524/13731420/206480518.jpg)
[/img]


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: Tim on November 21, 2006, 10:17:29 AM
  Is that a wrap party, mike?  From Harris' and Coburn's outfit, and Senta looking great  :D, it looks like it is near the fandango scene.

  And I may be in the minority, but I like the original score better.  At first, I really liked Caliendo's score but on future viewings, it wasn't as good.  The most notable scene is the final battle in the river, it seems SO QUIET!  I do agree the Major Dundee March is out of place, but other than that I prefer the original score.

  What's the title of your book?  I'll be sure to look for it, amigo!


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: mike siegel on November 21, 2006, 10:59:12 AM
Garner Simmons writes in his book it was Harris' birthday party. I disagree, by October shooting was over for months. I'd say they celebrate his Academy Award nomination early in '64...

The book is called
PASSION & POETRY - SAM PECKINPAH IN PICTURES
there's a look inside on my website 
www.eldorado-film.de

Well, the music... as with PAT GARRETT - films doomed from the beginning. There you have 3 cuts - al wrong, here you have two scores, both mediocre.

(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1612/7186524/13731420/206852217.jpg)
[/img]


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on October 10, 2007, 09:52:42 PM
I think I'll be reviving this thread on films that we call Zapata Westerns and those that reference the MexRev.

will add:

The Wild Bunch
The Professionals
And Starring Pancho Villa as Himself
They Came to Cordura
Pancho Villa

Still need to see "The Treasure of Pancho Villa" with Brian Kieth


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: Ben Tyreen on October 10, 2007, 10:39:55 PM
Quote
Still need to see "The Treasure of Pancho Villa" with Brian Kieth

  joe, do you mean the movie of the same title with Rory Calhoun and Gilbert Roland?  The only Villa related movie with Brian Keith I could find is called "Villa!"  Treasure of Pancho Villa is an excellent, way above average B-western, and a great ending too!  I caught it on TCM last summer and loved it, but haven't seen it in their schedule since.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on October 11, 2007, 06:34:17 AM
Quote
joe, do you mean the movie of the same title with Rory Calhoun and Gilbert Roland?  The only Villa related movie with Brian Keith I could find is called "Villa!"  Treasure of Pancho Villa is an excellent, way above average B-western, and a great ending too!  I caught it on TCM last summer and loved it, but haven't seen it in their schedule since.

Yea got them mixed up Kieth is in "Villa!" still have to see those two and all of "The Wrath of God" (just caught the beginning of that), then I think my Zapata viewings will be complete.

Also forgot to add Louis Malle's Bardot & Moreau film the name of which escapes me for the moment.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: Ben Tyreen on October 11, 2007, 11:38:58 AM
Quote
Yea got them mixed up Kieth is in "Villa!" still have to see those two and all of "The Wrath of God" (just caught the beginning of that), then I think my Zapata viewings will be complete.

  I'm a big fan of The Wrath of God so hopefully you enjoy the rest of the movie.  It kinda goes haywire a little past the midway point, but it's just an entertaining film, and Robert Mitchum is excellent.  Come to think of it, I like the whole cast. ;D


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: Groggy on October 11, 2007, 08:09:53 PM
As I said in the Rate the Last... thread, I watched Bullet for the General today. As this is generally considered one of the better spaghettis I was hoping I'd enjoy it more than I did.

Now really, this movie had an intriguing premise but just didn't have the interest necessary to keep it going for two hours. The version I saw of it had terrible dubbing (although I assume that comes with the territory), the guy they got to do Gian Maria Volonte was horrible (or maybe I'm just too used to Paul Frees from his Leone work). The action scenes were good but not spectacular. And the political commentary was at best sophomoric.

That being said, I found it reasonably entertaining, and would give it a lot higher of a score if it weren't for the stupid ass ending. Why does Chuncho give a long rambling speech on why he has to kill Tate but he doesn't know why? That scene completely bombed for me. From what I'd read of the scene beforehand I had expected that Chuncho would shoot him in the back as he were leaving or something, certainly the fact that he telegraphed what he was going to do, not only to the audience but to his victim, significantly lessened this scene's impact. GMV was good in the lead (well, what got through the dubbing), Lou Castel was as bland and wooden as humanly possible, and Klaus Kinski was wasted, although his grenade-throwing scene was excellent.

I'll be generous and give it a 6/10.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: Silenzio on October 11, 2007, 08:18:43 PM
I like the last scene.


I agree that it's an interesting premise that could have been done a lot better, I gave it a three out of four.  Check out SARTANA next if you want to see real spag excellence.

P.S. Yes, poor dubbing comes with the territory.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: Groggy on October 11, 2007, 08:27:53 PM
I like the idea of the last scene. I knew beforehand it was going to happened, but I just think it was dumb that Chuncho gave a long speech on "Oh, I must kill you. Why? Quen Sabe?" blah blah blah and then shot him in the stomach. I would have liked it if he had shot him in the back or something as he was getting on the train.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: Jill on October 12, 2007, 04:04:49 AM
Well, I like ZWs. They had an unique world. And very typical elements  ;)

- the gringo (have anybody seen a ZW ever without a gringo who does a lot of confusion?)
- the sadist mexican general/colonel (typically on the bad side, but I've seen some bandits too who say themselves freedom fighters... like Mongo in Companeros.
- the car (almost red)
- the explosions
- the machine gun
- the firing squad... (they can only shoot lesser characters. Never a hero, he would be saved.)
- the good, but a bit naive Mexican Rebel who befriends with the gringo
- in some cases, German officers
- the little Mexican boy

This historical timeline is very good. I think I will save it and learn it... I'm writing stories about it, I must know the fact, who, where, when...


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: Ben Tyreen on October 12, 2007, 11:41:11 AM
Quote
- the gringo (have anybody seen a ZW ever without a gringo who does a lot of confusion?)
- the sadist mexican general/colonel (typically on the bad side, but I've seen some bandits too who say themselves freedom fighters... like Mongo in Companeros.
- the car (almost red)
- the explosions
- the machine gun
- the firing squad... (they can only shoot lesser characters. Never a hero, he would be saved.)
- the good, but a bit naive Mexican Rebel who befriends with the gringo
- in some cases, German officers
- the little Mexican boy

  That's pretty dead on, jill.   :)  Anyone making a Zapata western now could use that list as a Moviemaking 101 class.  Just about any movie I think of has at least seven or eight of those characteristics. ;D


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: Groggy on October 12, 2007, 11:45:58 AM
Well yeah, when one watches these movies you do get sick of seeing innumerable people lined up in front of firing squads. ;D


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on October 12, 2007, 03:17:42 PM
Jill, You forgot the "romance of the sombreo" the fiestas that seem to be in ever present.  8)


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: The Firecracker on October 12, 2007, 04:37:39 PM
I like the last scene.

The last scene made the movie for me.

CJ: "Wrath of God" may not be your cup of tea as it becomes increasingly ridiculous with each minute that goes by.
However I liked it a bunch. The final gunfight is worth the price of admission.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: Jill on October 13, 2007, 03:53:56 AM
Jill, You forgot the "romance of the sombreo" the fiestas that seem to be in ever present.  8)

Oh, yes, the fiestas. Dancing and folk music.  ;) With bonfire and pretty Mexican girls dancing...

And the typical plot element: the gringo and the "good Mexican Rebel" double-crossing each other during the whole movie  ;D


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: dave jenkins on August 09, 2008, 03:38:59 PM
Ok watched my DVD of "Viva Zapata" (1952) directed by Elia Kazan, screenplay by John Stienbeck, starring Marlon Brando, Anthony Quinn, Jean Peters, Joseph Wiseman.

If "Viva Villa" (1934)  was the blueprint for the "fun" Zapata Western, then the same could be said that "Viva Zapata" was the outline of the serious Zapata Western. So in these two films we have a ying/yang treatment of the MexRev.

This film is not played for any type of humor, its serious drama throughout and more indepthly character driven than the more lighthearted romp Viva Villa. You could almost sight the similar difference between GBU & OUTITW both epics but very different in tone. Both films take place during the similar time period of the MexRev during the overthrow of Diaz. While Viva Villa takes place in the north in Sonora, Viva Zapata is set in Morelos. Both films have very similar plots.

A group of peons have an audience with Diaz and explain that their corn fields have been fenced off from them and planted with cane. They have their deeds with them, Diaz says they must find their boundary stones they say they cannot access the land to find them because they will be arrested. One of the more outspoken peons is Zapata who realizes that Diaz won't help them, so he leads an issurection with his more fiery and slightly out of control brother played by Anthony Quinn. The battle scenes are well done. There is an attack on a train sequence where they load a flatcar with explosives and let bit roll into an approaching supply train. The general cinematography is good its B&W but you wish this film was shot in color. Again its far more serious than most Spaghetti Zapatas (which tend to lean towards characters that are caricatures), this film treats all subjects and relationships equally in manner, and again its dialogue driven rather than style driven.

Brando plays and looks like convincing peon, Anthony Quinn is also fantastic and even more convincing as Efumio Zapata his brother, Wiseman plays a newspaper man/political agitator who loyalty is mercurial, towards the end of the film he comes off as some kind of behind the scenes trator/manipulator. Jean Peters plays Zapata's love interest and eventual wife.
John McCain is a fan! Here he is in a recent interview about his pop culture tastes:

Quote
We read somewhere that Viva Zapata! is your favorite movie of all time...
Elia Kazan made three movies with Marlon Brando. One was A Streetcar Named Desire, one was On the Waterfront, and the third was Viva Zapata! Many people think Brando's performances in Streetcar and Waterfront were his best. I think Zapata! was his best. I'm in the minority about this. But go back and watch the scene of his wedding night, with [Brando] and Jean Peters — the actress who later married Howard Hughes, who made her give up acting — when she teaches him to read by taking out the Bible and reading it with him. That's a poignant scene.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on February 03, 2010, 03:37:01 AM
"Viva Villa" on TMC today 8:45 AM Eastern


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on March 28, 2010, 07:52:13 PM
Re-watched this recently
They Came To Cordura (1959) Dir. by Richard Rossen

starring:
 Gary Cooper ...  Maj. Thomas Thorn
 Rita Hayworth ...  Adelaide Geary
 Van Heflin ...  Sgt. John Chawk
 Tab Hunter ...  Lt. William Fowler
 Richard Conte ...  Cpl. Milo Trubee
 Michael Callan ...  Pvt. Andrew Hetherington
 Dick York ...  Pvt. Renziehausen
 Robert Keith ...  Col. Rogers
 Carlos Romero ...  Arreaga
 Jim Bannon ...  Capt. Paltz (as James Bannon)

A psychological Cavalry film/Zapata Western, basically Coop plays a Major Thorn who at Villa's attack on Columbus NM was stricken by fear and hid out in a culvert under the railway. His commanding officer a friend of his father, spares him and recommends him for non combat duty that consists of citing soldiers for bravery for the Congressional Medal of Honor.

Near the end of Pershings Punnative Expedition against Pancho Villa, at battle at Ojos Azules Hacienda, which was the last mounted line charge against an enemy in the history of the United States Cavalry, Cooper's character  Maj. Thomas Thorn cites 5 men for the medal. Coop has a personal interest in this because he himself wonders what it takes to be courageous, so he in turn asks each of his cited soldiers what they felt during the battle and what made them courageous.

The Commander who lead the charge Robert Keith, Col. Rogers, was expecting to also be cited by Thorn, (so that he could receive his generals star) but he's not and he bitterly sends Thorn with 6 men (one man cited for the medal from a previous skirmish) back to the army's rail head base in Cordura, Chihuahua, Mexico, the army wanted live heroes, and wanted to keep them out of combat until they were awarded the medals. The previously cited soldier was killed before Congress got around to awarding his medal.

Included in this detail is Adelaide Geary (Rita Hayworth) an American woman prisoner, the hacienda's owner, who Col. Rogers accuses of aiding the Villistas. In fact she had no choice with any of the Mexican warring factions and took all comers in. She is being sent home for trial. The confrontations with the bandits the woman, and increasingly, with each other, is the core of this adventure across a burning desert for six days back to Cordura. The very harsh circumstances reveal all five cited "heroes" to be at times pathetic, corrupt, hypocritical, cowardly, and degenerate, while Col Thorn and Adelaide Geary are shown to display an entirely different definition of courage.

Again the cavalry attack was well done and its the first I've ever seen with the US Cavalry in khaki. The CinemaScope scenery is gorgeous and upon a second viewing I knew what to expect, so I knew it wasn't going to have any of the "romance of the sombrero" of your typical Zapata Westerns and I could concentrate more on the interaction of the characters.

This is one film that tackles a difficult subject matter in an adult manner and deserves multiple viewings. It won't be everyone's cup of tea.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: Novecento on March 29, 2010, 02:03:31 PM
So how come Zapata gets all the credit for these Westerns and not Villa?

I guess it must be something to do with the leftist streak in them which was more in tune with Zapata than Villa in historical terms.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on March 29, 2010, 03:09:33 PM
So how come Zapata gets all the credit for these Westerns and not Villa?

I guess it must be something to do with the leftist streak in them which was more in tune with Zapata than Villa in historical terms.

I suppose you could say that, Viva Zapata also was closer to the Spaghetti Western Era than Viva Villa (1934).


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on September 04, 2010, 06:27:17 AM
A trio of Mexican Zapata Westerns were on last night on TCM, (for the 100 anniversary of the MexRev according to Osborn) they were interesting, I was finally seeing the Mexican take on the Revolution, they were all in Spanish with English subtitles and all starred Pedro Armendariz and were directed by Ismael Rodríquez.

Nice concept initially with the disembodied head of Pancho Villa narrating his life so its basically vignettes of Pancho Villas life. However I found all the films way way to talkie, too much talking heads, to many crowd scenes, and not enough Mexican scenery and the music was pretty pedestrian, you'd think at least they would have used more of the songs that popularized the revolution, but no just bland laborious orchestral pieces. The films  got a bit better from first to last with the last (the last one was the only one that had a machine gun, lol, providing a bit more of the feel of a typical Zapata).

Its probably a cultural thing on what was emphasized in this trio of films and they may have been very popular in Mexico but there is not enough of the artistry and a noticeable lack of the political themes (perhaps still a touchy & taboo subject in Mexico) we have come to expect from the genre.

Así era Pancho Villa (1957)

The disembodied head of Mexico's best-known rebel Poncho Villa narrates several short stories from his own life. Cast Pedro Armendáriz as Pancho Villa, María Elena Marqués as Jesusita de Chihuahua, and Carlos López Moctezuma as Fierro. Dir: Ismael Rodríquez.

Pancho Villa y la Valentina (1960)

The many sides of Pancho Villa, one of Mexico's best-known rebels, are revealed.
Cast: Pedro Armendáriz, Elsa Aquirre, Carlos López Moctezuma. Dir: Ismael Rodríquez.

Cuando ¡Viva Villa..! es la muerte (1960)

Stories of the life of Pancho Villa are recounted by teachers, prisoners, farm hands and other small town residents.
Cast: Pedro Armendáriz, Elsa Aquirre, Carlos López Moctezuma. Dir: Ismael Rodríquez. C-92 mins


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: Groggy on September 04, 2010, 09:27:10 AM
So how come Zapata gets all the credit for these Westerns and not Villa?

I guess it must be something to do with the leftist streak in them which was more in tune with Zapata than Villa in historical terms.

This may be true. I might also think that Zapata Western sounds better than Villa Western, but what do I know?


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: Novecento on September 04, 2010, 10:17:55 AM
I suppose you could say that, Viva Zapata also was closer to the Spaghetti Western Era than Viva Villa (1934).

Good point. Never seen Viva Villa, but Viva Zapata with Marlon Brando is a good one.

A trio of Mexican Zapata Westerns were on last night on TCM, (for the 100 anniversary of the MexRev according to Osborn) they were interesting, I was finally seeing the Mexican take on the Revolution, they were all in Spanish with English subtitles and all starred Pedro Armendariz and were directed by Ismael Rodríquez.

I noticed that too. Looked pretty interesting.

This may be true. I might also think that Zapata Western sounds better than Villa Western, but what do I know?

Seems it was Corbucci who came up with the term.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: stanton on September 04, 2010, 12:20:59 PM
In Germany they are simply called Revolution Westerns.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on September 20, 2010, 08:41:18 PM
I actually happened to chance upon "The Treasure Of Pancho Villa" this morning on TCM with Rory Calhoun, Shelley Winters, and Gilbert Roland, caught a small piece of it at the end with Calhoun & Roland building a machine gun nest out of sacks of gold holding off a Mexican Army, it had some nice touches every tiime a bullet it a sack gold coins would spill out.


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on September 26, 2010, 04:12:35 PM
Viva Zapata & Viva Villa on tonight starting at 8PM Eastern Time O0


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: tintin on March 17, 2011, 10:11:29 PM
Most Zapata westerns are "fun"; not accurate. Even though "Villa Rides" was said to be based on a book, how come there are Federal troops ("colorados")  still around and fighting when Madero is in office?   Villa was very progressive, though--it was just like him to first suggest airplanes as an attack weapon. "Viva Villa", although the first, was frowned upon by the Mexican government, as they were afraid Beery would make Villa look like a buffoon--he had just played a clownish Long John Silver in "Treasure Island".  The actor originally playing reporter Johnny Sikes (based on Jack Reed) was deported after drunkenly pissing on a column of Mexican soldiers that   paraded past his hotel.  "The Wild Bunch" talks of "using them (airplanes) in the war";  when it is 1913. So  does "Villa Rides"--"gonna be a war, soon"--in 1912, in either case,  when no one had a clue. The few that told history well were grim--"They came to Codura"; "Viva Zapata!": "And Starring as Himself, Pancho Villa"; and "The Old Gringo" (one of the Few which had a character resembling Villa.) The "Young Indiana Jones" episode has a good grasp of history--those tired of war, period, who simply want to raise their chickens. This sentiment  is in DYS, too.

A real fun one, beautiful cinematography, was "Bandido" (Robt. Mitchum.) It  was shot in the  Northern Mexico deserts, the forests, jungles, Aztec pyramids, and seashore (Acapulco.) Should have got an Oscar for  its sweeping landscapes--like "Shane".


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on March 18, 2011, 04:41:29 AM
agreed O0


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: titoli on July 04, 2015, 03:31:56 PM
It seems like this euro Zapata western, pre-Fistful, might be worth searching for. I will, mainly for Ralli. The dance sounds morriconian, doesn't it?

https://vimeo.com/50270550 


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on July 04, 2015, 05:32:49 PM
It seems like this euro Zapata western, pre-Fistful, might be worth searching for. I will, mainly for Ralli. The dance sounds morriconian, doesn't it?

https://vimeo.com/50270550 

yes it does


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: Novecento on July 04, 2015, 08:42:40 PM
It is a fantastic film. It's available from Gaumont in France on DVD with French audio and subs.

We discussed it briefly here:

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=1590.msg153003#msg153003


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: tintin on March 23, 2017, 03:12:45 PM
Did some research--it seems General Pascual Orozco headed a counterrevolutionary group of red-flaggers ("Colorados".) This is Not explained in any Zapata western But is very important to continuity. Also, the Battle of Conejos ("Rabbits") actually occurred--so, I decided to keep "Villa Rides" and not sell my DVD online. O0


Title: Re: Zapata Westerns
Post by: cigar joe on March 23, 2017, 05:39:52 PM
Did some research--it seems General Pascual Orozco headed a counterrevolutionary group of red-flaggers ("Colorados".) This is Not explained in any Zapata western But is very important to continuity. Also, the Battle of Conejos ("Rabbits") actually occurred--so, I decided to keep "Villa Rides" and not sell my DVD online. O0

I did a quick breakdown of the MexRev here http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=1529.msg22451#msg22451 (http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=1529.msg22451#msg22451) it used to have an accompanying map that the numbers were keyed but they are now long gone.