Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => Duck, You Sucker => Topic started by: Uomo_senza_ nome on March 09, 2005, 10:54:45 AM



Title: Tuco or Juan
Post by: Uomo_senza_ nome on March 09, 2005, 10:54:45 AM
Which character did you like the most, Tuco or Juan?
I think they're very much alike and like em' both, but what do you think ???


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: Bill Carson on March 09, 2005, 12:17:09 PM
 8) hola and welcome Dominick!  I've mentioned elsewhere that I've only ever seen DUCK YOU SUCKER / FISTFUL OF DYNAMITE once before (can't wait for the dvd!) but what I do remember is that Rod Steiger just seems to be doing an over-the-top impersonation of Wallach's Tuco. and he uses the 'F-word' a lot. no competition Tuco is THE MAN.


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: DJIMBO on March 09, 2005, 03:44:14 PM
yeah, any die-hard DYS fans under the illusion that Rod Steiger's Juan is even a patch on Eli Wallach's Tuco is misled. i dont think there are many that would argue it. dont get me wrong, steiger may be a great actor, but in that film he just got the accent and mood all wrong.


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: cigar joe on March 09, 2005, 09:55:03 PM
I agree in English language version, Wallach nails a peon/bandit character, so does Tomas Milian who could have done the part too in the English dub.

That said now perhaps in other language versions Steiger's dubber makes a difference, so we are dealing with not the same film then in that respect.


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: The Smoker on March 10, 2005, 01:01:10 PM
I agree in English language version, Wallach nails a peon/bandit character, so does Tomas Milian who could have done the part too in the English dub.

That said now perhaps in other language versions Steiger's dubber makes a difference, so we are dealing with not the same film then in that respect.

Thomas Milian playing Juan...  interesting.


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: Uomo_senza_ nome on March 11, 2005, 10:10:36 AM
Hey don't get me wrong, i love wallach's tuco, but Rod steiger is facinating in his portrayel of Juan. I dont think hes over the top, i think he's perfect. Besides he's a great actor!!!! The scene where he finds his dead family is just great acting, you guys can't argue with on that one :)


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: SeanSeanSean on March 11, 2005, 03:47:32 PM
I agree Juan's grieving scene is a touching moment. As for the comparison:I find the setting and the mood of two movies are so different that each actor works well in their own roles.


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: noodles_leone on March 12, 2005, 06:45:37 AM
wallach was offered the part of Juan... but the guys from United Artists are very strange, and they change their mind pretty often.
I think Eli would have been great. But maybe their is something in Rod's eyes that is not in Wallach's ones... something very moving... a certain kind of compation or something like that. I don't know.


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: Uomo_senza_ nome on June 12, 2005, 12:35:20 PM
I think that Tuco and Juan, are the same character. The Juan character has just been taken a step further. He doesn't just think about money, but family! Tuco on the other hand, only goes after the money. Although he visits his brother, and his eyes are filled with tears when he learns about his parent death, the visit of the mission is not intentional


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: Poggle on June 12, 2005, 01:18:53 PM
Actually yes it was. Remember, he asked the Confederate soldier where the mission was and then he asked the priest at the hospital if Pablo Ramirez was there.


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: dave jenkins on June 13, 2005, 12:45:57 AM
Tuco and Juan are very different and can't really be compared; they are both perfect in their own ways, but those ways are determined by the kinds of movies they inhabit. Tuco is a character who doesn't change, he is amazingly consistent from beginning to end. As viewers we prize the fact of his unchangeability. But Juan does change, as he must, in the movie he operates within. The two are exactly as they should be for their respective films....


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: Egdor on June 13, 2005, 03:13:29 AM
Nothing at all wrong with Steigerís performance except for his slightly too loose interpretation of a Mexican accent. It doesnít get in the way except once or twice, though, and sometimes it even adds to the movie because itís quite funny.


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: Uomo_senza_ nome on June 18, 2005, 01:25:11 PM
Well they're not different, they're just set in two different situations. Steiger got afamily, Tuco don't


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: dave jenkins on June 19, 2005, 05:54:06 PM
Hey, pal, character is destiny.


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: titoli on July 08, 2005, 10:18:02 PM
Wallach and Steiger are both dubbed by the same actor (Carlo Romano, Jerry Lewis' dubber) in the italian releases.


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: Juan Miranda on July 09, 2005, 07:46:43 AM
As you can guess by my forum name, I am very fond of of old Juan.† :)

His accent is as absurd as Jimmy Coburn's "Oirish" one, and this lends the pair a cartoonish quality in keeping with some of the visual flourishes.

He does share some of Tuco's peasant traits, his chats with God for instance. But as said above by some folks, they are two different guys in two different types of movie. Juan changes and evolves, where as Tuco is simply motivated by greed.

The massacre in the caves sequence (when seen cut correctly on the recent DVD resoration) is one of the greatest sequences Leone ever shot. Utterly moving, and quite daring, refusing to show us what Juan sees. We just get an extended take of Steiger's devastated face. We only see the dead people through Coburn's point of view. He instantly feels guilty about Steiger's dead children, and can barely look Steiger in the eye again until the end of the film.

In a lighter moment, the exasperated look on Steiger's face as he realises the bank is merly full of grubby prisoners is priceless.

Steiger was characaturing some of Leone's quirks in his performance, and even looks a little like him. Wallach was origionally supposed to play Miranda, of course, and apparently he fell out very badly with Sergio over it, and wouldn't speak to him for years (a familiar tale with Leone collabarators).

On a technical side note, I was always stunned by the panning, zooming shot of the dead in the cave scene. If you have even tried pulling focus on a camera, you'll appriciate this is a sheer tour de force of the Focus Puller's craft. Indeed, I wondered how the hell they managed to to achieve this shot, and it came as no surprise when I learned they had an early version of video assist on the shoot, very cutting edge technology at the time.


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: Uomo_senza_ nome on July 24, 2005, 10:40:55 AM
you're right mate, i have a little favorite in Rod steiger, he's one the greatest actors of all time, and the cave scene is great. The music and the closeup of steigers agonized face...... Real horrorshow


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: leonehayrani on July 26, 2005, 05:58:01 PM
I love both the characters and I think that both Steiger and Wallach do great jobs portraying their respective characters.† Overall, I may say I "enjoy" Tuco more because of how much fun he and GDU are, but I can't say that I "like" him more.† Both are fairly complex, troublesome, but very sympathetic, likeable characters.†

As to whether Wallach could have done a better job as Juan, I am not sure.† Steiger does a great job at portraying the complexities of Juan and I think convincingly brings ut a combination of sympathy, simpleness, focus, and menace that probably Wallach would not do as well.† The real difference I think in Steiger portraying Juan is in the latter elements of some focus and menace.† There, Steiger, particularly in his face and eyes, adds great intensity that I have a hard time believing Wallach would have achieved.† I know Wallach played nasty baddies (Magnif.Seven and Lord Jim), but not with the same results that Steiger gets.†

Steiger also does a great job at conveying the pain and loss Juan suffers.† As others have pointed out, this is very effective when he finds his family massacred, and it is also compelling at the end of the film, when he wonders "What about me?" and the camera focuses on him.

On the other hand, Wallach may well have done just as great a job.† Since he didn't do it, it's hard to tell.† I am certain that Wallach's version of Juan would have been a bit different from Steiger's, though, even if he did a great job.† Maybe he would have come across more like Tuco, which I probably wouldn't want.† I wouldn't want just another Tuco (however much I love the character and Wallach's portayal of him), and I wouldn't want to associate the two characters more.† Although part of me would have loved to see Wallach again in such a role, I therefore have to say that with Steiger's contributions and with the variety this brings, I am happy with thw two actors in their respective roles.†


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: KERMIT on July 28, 2005, 07:18:42 AM
i wish leone would have made some sort of spinoff of FFDM propr to GB&U using steiger & wallach ala' mortimer & monco.
only w/ that comedic twist leone & both these priceless actors could have done.


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: Uomo_senza_ nome on September 21, 2005, 09:00:36 AM
wouldn't it be nice


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: J B on October 05, 2005, 11:07:59 AM
Tuco easily.  rod Steiger was good, but Elli Wallach just steals that movie.  he managed to create a sympathetic character out of a ruthless bandit.


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: redyred on October 05, 2005, 06:46:14 PM
Ah but did he manage to create a ruthless bandit out of a sympathetic character? Now that only a genius could have done.


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: dave jenkins on October 05, 2005, 09:40:03 PM
Or a complete madman.


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: Banjo on November 06, 2005, 05:38:10 AM
This is maybe a stupid comment but had Eli Wallach been slotted in as Juan as originally intended then would we have had an inferior movie?I say this because of the story of how Steiger bullishly insisted on Leone directing after the Bogdanovich fiasco.Bearing in mind( the more easy going?) Wallach was more than happy to partake in lesser efforts by Tessari,Collizzi,Corbucci and also Coburns willingness to star in the not so great Massacre at Fort Holman, perhaps neither† of them would have been too bothered about who ended up directing DYS.Maybe we have the lesser evil of Steiger(very good actually) as Juan in a Leone directed DYS rather than Wallach as Juan in a non-Leone directed DYS.Perhaps some of us maybe are guilty of wanting to have our cake and eat it!!


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: Uomo_senza_ nome on December 02, 2005, 11:32:48 AM
Yeah sure, why not?


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: HEX on December 02, 2005, 11:34:04 AM
Wallach and Steiger are both dubbed by the same actor (Carlo Romano, Jerry Lewis' dubber) in the italian releases.


it was u CHARLIE it was u.


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: Banjo on December 08, 2005, 08:38:59 AM
Yeah sure, why not?
Well in the words of Jagger/Richards - "You can't always get what you want-ant!!"


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: The Firecracker on April 15, 2006, 07:03:04 PM
yeah, any die-hard DYS fans under the illusion that Rod Steiger's Juan is even a patch on Eli Wallach's Tuco is misled. i dont think there are many that would argue it. dont get me wrong, steiger may be a great actor, but in that film he just got the accent and mood all wrong.


perhaps I am a "misguided soul" as you mentioned. I happen to find Steiger's Bandit better executed than Eli's performance as Tuco. The accent didnt bother me. And I saw nothing wrong with his "mood".


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: The Firecracker on April 15, 2006, 07:12:43 PM
i wish leone would have made some sort of spinoff of FFDM propr to GB&U using steiger & wallach ala' mortimer & monco.
only w/ that comedic twist leone & both these priceless actors could have done.



that would have never worked. Tuco would have been an old man(if not dead already) by the time Juan was old enough to go on some mis-adventure with Tuco. Remember that there is a 48 year difference between the events of "GBU" and the events of "Duck you sucker".

I would have much rather seen an Angel Eyes and Tuco spin-off.


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: roberti on April 15, 2006, 08:37:19 PM
I do think that Steiger is exactly playing like Sergio wanted to so I should say amen .
Nevertheless I think it is not enough and I would have definitely created another role:Marlon Brando (with his latino complexion)as a real local revolutionary, reactiving John Mallory instinct of rebel,  involved in the cause but not totally unrealistic while John would have been much more critical and would have kept more distance.
Rod Steiger could have been this third funny and naive character  he was actually playing but I think Wallach would have been better.

I know I am not an authority to rewrite or rethink Sergio
stuff but I always think perfection and it is easier with Sergio as a model.


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: The Firecracker on April 15, 2006, 09:01:14 PM


I know I am not an authority to rewrite or rethink Sergio's
stuff.


neither am I. But that is the wonders of THIS film forum. you can state your opinions and suggestions no matter how ridiculous and you still wont get shot down by some arse(well...most of the time anyway).

As for your Brando being a mexican Idea...I would have to disagree. Brando looked awful as Pancho Villa in "viva zapata",(was it? cant recall name sorry. havent seen it in years) that fake nose was ridiculous!


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: cigar joe on April 15, 2006, 11:07:10 PM
He was playing Emiliano Zapata, you should check it out again if you get a chance he does a great job, its a good film about Zapata and Anthony Quinn is great as his brother Efumio.


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: The Firecracker on April 15, 2006, 11:09:46 PM
He was playing Emiliano Zapata, you should check it out again if you get a chance he does a great job, its a good film about Zapata and Anthony Quinn is great as his brother Efumio.


it was "viva zapata" I was talking about right?


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: cigar joe on April 15, 2006, 11:45:03 PM
Yea its Viva Zapata, but he also did The Appaloosa where he is a half breed Mexican, you didn't mix the two up did you, one is a Western the other is more a historical bio pic. Kazan did a great job depicting Mexican customs in Viva Zapata, your appreciation of it may change with a few more viewings.  8)


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: The Firecracker on April 15, 2006, 11:49:10 PM
Yea its Viva Zapata, but he also did The Appaloosa where he is a half breed Mexican, you didn't mix the two up did you, one is a Western the other is more a historical bio pic. Kazan did a great job depicting Mexican customs in Viva Zapata, your appreciation of it may change with a few more viewings.† 8)


Not sure if I mixed the two up...which one is the one that he has a fake nose in?


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: roberti on April 16, 2006, 10:21:44 AM


As for your Brando being a mexican Idea...I would have to disagree. Brando looked awful as Pancho Villa in "viva zapata",(was it? cant recall name sorry. havent seen it in years) that fake nose was ridiculous!

Don't forget that the director would still have been Sergio who was a very demanding person able to turn average actor into good and able to transform actor usually plaing comedy into great tragedian and vice versa, we could call this the Leone magnificence. And Brando had the skills to perform the role I have in mind: i think it would have been his most engaged role. Brando is great in Apocalypse Now, but he's got a gourou role:as great but less demanding.In my vision we would have had a Brando suffering the revolution (and not just a caricature of Zapata or Villa that is why I wrote 'a local rebel'), bleeding, killing, covered by the mud, in great fight scenes, praying not be killed or for his friends or family, saving partners and villains in a fantastic cleaver scene. A hero and a martyr, but still conscious of the crazyness of the situation such as Commandant Marcos in Mexico, 10 years ago. I agree with leone vision: most of the time the revolution does not lead to anything. But if you don't do anything, the same weird people are still imposing their bad stuff. I think it would have been great to film this vision as well. It is more or less the role that would have had De Niro in the 900 days of Leningrad (quoted in Conversation avec Sergio Leone).
And I would definitely have shot that in black and white or sepia and keep the colour for the flashback.


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: franksgrandson on April 16, 2006, 04:51:05 PM
I would of course pick Tuco and I think Wallach as Juan would have been great but we shall never know.
Now although Duck you Sucker is not at the top of my list of Leone films I would say this, Steiger at first brought shivers of horror out in me but unlike other Leone movies Duck you sucker needs a lot more than a couple of viewings and obviously the full length versions is a must, its then you realise what a great job Stieger made of Juan, Leone may have had his problems with Rod at the start of the movie but he has that expressive face that works on all levels and he threw his all into the movie, the way Steiger carries Juan through the stages of crafty banditery right through to a disillusioned revolutionary who has lost everything must rank as one of this actors greatest achivements and it had a lasting effect catch Steigers later roles and Juan pops up all over the place.
Duck you sucker to me is a good movie but if Leone had captured the same spirit as OUATITW it would have been outstanding     


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: Groggy on April 17, 2006, 07:52:12 AM
I probably posted on this thread before, if so I'm sorry.  However, I have to say that Tuco is way better for numerous reasons.  Namely, the character is more interesting and well-portrayed.  Nothing against Rod, he's a great actor even if I'm not too big a fan, but Wallach was a much more convincing Mexican than Rod with his hysterical Italo-Russian accent.  Tuco was a more carnivalesque character throughout, whereas Juan was a more human and realistic character (at least as he developed), so I don't think they can be easily compared in that way.  But definitely Tuco.  Rod as Komarovsky in "Doctor Zhivago", however. . . then maybe you have a case.  ;D 


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: DJIMBO on April 17, 2006, 10:42:08 AM
sorry guys, dont buy into this "steiger's shit accent adds to the film" school of thought. OTT personified, not Steiger's finest hour.

I think the point is that Wallach never really tries to do an authentic Mexican accent.


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: Prabal on July 06, 2012, 02:20:32 AM
Dont know if this point has been made already......so apologies if it undeed has been made. Tuco, for me, absolutely nails all the emotions perfectly. Someboydy here opined that Tuco goes after money only. But, in my view, the scene in which he is talking to Blondie and praising his brother to the skies when he(Padre Ramirez) had only some time ago expressed his absolute contempt for Tuco(to change his mind, later) shows his human side too...The slightly pensive music playing in the background too makes it one of the best scenes in arguably the best movie ever made.

this, however, is not to run down Steiger's effort who was good in DYS. However, Tuco to me is way better than Steiger and perhaps most memorable movie character ever.


Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 06, 2012, 08:21:48 AM
on a somewhat related note, Leone originally wanted Jason Robards to play Sean. Waddaya say to that idea?

In my opinion, Coburn was terrific as Sean, even though his Irish accent was not very good.



Title: Re: Tuco or Juan
Post by: Senza on February 23, 2013, 07:31:56 PM
Tuco, for sure.