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Other/Miscellaneous => Off-Topic Discussion => Topic started by: jerkface on May 10, 2005, 02:20:04 PM



Title: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: jerkface on May 10, 2005, 02:20:04 PM
Has anybody scoped out the new cut of The Big Red One? I think it's awesome. They did a really good job of putting it back together.

Unlike, say... the Apocalypse Now Redux. What a bunch of crap! I prefer the original cut. All of those restored sequences are a drag. Wait a minute, I'm supposed to be talking about The Big Red One. Alright, I'm done.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: dave jenkins on May 11, 2005, 05:21:28 PM
I enjoyed TBRO:TR; I think it plays better with the extra footage.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: Walton on May 12, 2005, 01:19:29 AM
I agree, I thought it was much better and stands up as a really solid war movie. It's well worth hunting down on dvd.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: jerkface on May 16, 2005, 01:40:39 PM
Wow, no takers? I was sure somebody would dispute my assertion that the Apocalypse Now Redux is a bunch of crap.

I haven't seen every Lee Marvin movie, but I think his role in The Big Red One is one of his best. If it isn't, I'd be glad to find his better performances.

I really dig Hell In The Pacific too. Lee Marvin and Toshiro Mifune stranded on a desert island. How could it miss? The only way it could be better is if they had Bronson play a Russian who crash lands on the same island. Well, alright, it probably wouldn't be better. But it would definitely increase the tough guy quotient. Not that they needed it, but hey. I think I've managed to talk about every film but the Big Red One now.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: dave jenkins on May 16, 2005, 05:03:31 PM
I haven't seen every Lee Marvin movie, but I think his role in The Big Red One is one of his best. If it isn't, I'd be glad to find his better performances.

He's awfully good in The Killers. I'm very much looking forward to the DVD release of Point Blank next month; I've never seen the film, but my suspicion is that Marvin's best performance lies there.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: jerkface on May 17, 2005, 07:40:27 AM
He's awfully good in The Killers. I'm very much looking forward to the DVD release of Point Blank next month; I've never seen the film, but my suspicion is that Marvin's best performance lies there.

I'm totally with you on that. Haven't seen Point Blank but I'm looking forward to it. Lee Marvin in a John Boorman film. How could it go wrong?

Is the Killers any good? I've heard it's super low budget, that it was originally going to be a made for tv movie. Criterion put that out, so I'm sure it's a good package, but... Is it worth it? I like Don Siegel. It can't be bad.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: Christopher on May 17, 2005, 04:14:31 PM
Point Blank and The Killers are both very good movies. Point Blank is one of my favorites that Lee Marvin did.

As is The Big Red One, though I haven't seen the reconstructed film yet. Honestly, I didn't even know the movie had been cut so badly back on its original release until recently. I remember thinking it strange that someone who had been in World War II would make a PG rated movie about it.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: jerkface on May 18, 2005, 10:05:37 AM
Point Blank and The Killers are both very good movies. Point Blank is one of my favorites that Lee Marvin did.

As is The Big Red One, though I haven't seen the reconstructed film yet. Honestly, I didn't even know the movie had been cut so badly back on its original release until recently. I remember thinking it strange that someone who had been in World War II would make a PG rated movie about it.

The new cut of The Big Red One is rated R. I'd say that's appropriate. If you liked the original and you like Lee Marvin, I'd highly recommend it. It's tied for first among my favorite war films:

Cross Of Iron
Apocalypse Now
The Big Red One

Anybody ever see Cross Of Iron? It's Peckinpah's WWII film, starring James Coburn. It's one of his most overlooked films, and probably the last really good film he made. I do like the films he did after, but he was shaky after Bring Me The Head Of Alfredo Garcia. Although you could make a case for him being somewhat inconsistent throughout his entire career. Personally, I love most of his films despite this.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: Walton on May 19, 2005, 01:40:12 AM
I've got Cross of Iron on dvd and it's certainly worth checking out. Its main interest for me is that it deals with the Russian front, a combat arena not often seen in war movies.

On the subject of war movies, has anyone seen Downfall? Bruno Ganz doesn't just play Hitler, its almost like he became Hitler. It's an incredible performance, which the rest of the film more than lives up to.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: The Smoker on May 19, 2005, 05:41:41 AM
2 really good WWI type scenarios.
Kurbrick's 'Paths of Glory' starring Kurt Douglas. Proberly the most un-jingoistic conflict move ive ever watched. 'La Grande Illusion' is another good one.
 

As is The Big Red One, I remember thinking it strange that someone who had been in World War II would make a PG rated movie about it.

Thats '80s Hollywood values' in film presentation for ya. Get the censorship rating down to a widest audience. And keep the movie close to 2 hours. Every movie must be a Star Wars or a Jaws.
Alot of of Directors from Fuller's generation must of thought they were on a different planet, moviemaking in the 80s.  ::)
Watched a John Boorman TV interview recently another man quite open about the sudden turn Hollywood took in the late 70s. 


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: Film-Junkie Zach on July 17, 2005, 11:52:36 AM
I Loved The Big Red One! If Warner Bros. had shown Fuller's preferred cut, Mark Hamill would have been knowned for this film and not just The Original Star Wars Trilogy. The Big Red One Is one of my most favorite films ever. It's a Damn Good Film.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: Groggy on June 29, 2007, 03:51:22 PM
The Big Red One - an okay but nothing really special kinda war movie IMO - though the ending was really brilliant. - 7/10

Tomorrow I get to go see "Ocean's Thirteen" with two girls a year older than me. Heh heh. . . it's not really a date, but I can pretend.  ^-^


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: dave jenkins on June 29, 2007, 06:15:25 PM
The Big Red One - an okay but nothing really special kinda war movie IMO - though the ending was really brilliant. - 7/10
But which version did you see? The Restoration is much superior to the original theatrical release.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: Tucumcari Bound on November 22, 2008, 12:35:00 AM

Classic film. One of my favorite Lee Marvin pictures.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: Groggy on November 22, 2008, 07:32:01 PM
Anybody ever see Cross Of Iron?

Yeah, I thought it was pretty mediocre. Didn't like Apocalypse Now at all. Nor did I like the theatrical cut of TBRO, although I'm willing to concede the director's cut might be better.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: titoli on September 07, 2010, 06:33:53 PM
I saw the cut version on tv and thought it was very good. The restored version makes it one of the best war movies ever. A complaint is about the photography: not as gritty as it should have been, too clear, especially for the european part. I think IIWW movies should be shot b&w. Anyway this gets 9\10.

P.S. About Point Blank: I saw it twice, once in a theatre: Marvin was good (as usual)  but the movie was quite boring.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: Dust Devil on December 12, 2010, 11:56:34 PM
Count me in among the likers. Maybe somewhat scattered, but deservedly up there in the 8-something/10 domain. Will have to watch it once more, this time preferably in peace.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: dave jenkins on January 10, 2014, 02:04:04 PM
Blu-ray on May 16. I'm not sure if it's the theatrical cut or the restored one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/The-Big-Red-One-Blu-ray/ref=%26%2574%2561g%3d%2562l%2575r%2561y%252d016%252d20?SubscriptionId=AKIAIY4YSQJMFDJATNBA&tag=bluray-016-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B00HS6DTTS&ASIN=B00HS6DTTS&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: dave jenkins on January 11, 2014, 12:00:30 PM
Blu-ray on May 16. I'm not sure if it's the theatrical cut or the restored one.
thedigitalbits has the answer:
Quote
We’ve checked with Warner Home Video sources and have confirmed that The Big Red One contains a remastered version of the film’s 113-minute Theatrical Cut in HD and – as a ‘special feature’ – the 169-minute Reconstruction version in SD only as well. That’s official, so FYI and make your plans accordingly.
I guess there's no need for me to buy this, then.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: dave jenkins on July 13, 2014, 11:26:02 AM
35mm screening coming to MoMA!
Quote
The Big Red One: The Reconstruction

2004. USA. Directed by Samuel Fuller. With Lee Marvin, Mark Hamill, Robert Carradine. Fuller’s 1980 magnum opus, a fictionalized account of his World War II experiences with the First Infantry Division from North Africa to Falkenau, was brutally cut by its original distributor. This reconstruction, supervised by the critic Richard Schickel in 2004, restores Fuller’s structure, adds some 40 minutes of new footage, and removes a gratuitous voice-over narration. 35mm. 158 min.



Sunday, August 10, 2014, 2:30 p.m., Theater 1, T1   

Wednesday, August 13, 2014, 4:30 p.m., Theater 1, T1
I think this is absolutely my first chance to see the longer cut on film. Anyway, I'm definitely gonna be there on the 10th. Drink, you in on this?


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 14, 2014, 10:32:50 AM
I am pretty sure I am in.
I've never even heard of the movie till now, but anytime I am recommended a good movie I am happy to check it out. That, plus the fact that I anyway like visiting MoMA every so often to check out the paintings, so yeah, it sounds good. I'll PM you to discuss details :)


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: Groggy on July 17, 2014, 05:50:09 AM
I'm not crazy about the shortened version, so this is certainly interesting news.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: dave jenkins on July 17, 2014, 12:24:26 PM
Yeah, can you get up to NYC on the 10th?


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 18, 2014, 03:13:37 PM
DJ and I will most likely be there at MoMA on the 10th. We can have an SLWB party :)


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: Groggy on July 18, 2014, 04:29:13 PM
Yeah, can you get up to NYC on the 10th?

Not likely I'm afraid.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: stanton on July 19, 2014, 12:58:18 PM
Yeah, I come if I don't have to work (but I have to) and the flight is less than 800 bucks.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: dave jenkins on July 19, 2014, 03:40:12 PM
Yeah, I come if I don't have to work (but I have to) and the flight is less than 800 bucks.
Hey, Drink and I will take you to McSorley's afterwards. That should be worth the 800 (or less) right there!


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: dave jenkins on July 19, 2014, 03:48:14 PM
Not likely I'm afraid.
Too bad. The Duke really wants to meet you.  >:D


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: Groggy on July 19, 2014, 04:54:39 PM
John Wayne? I'd be honored.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: stanton on July 20, 2014, 03:30:28 AM
Hey, Drink and I will take you to McSorley's afterwards. That should be worth the 800 (or less) right there!

I know, but not more than 800.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: dave jenkins on August 11, 2014, 08:00:14 AM
Yesterday Drink and I were at MoMA to, among other things, view the film. A good time was had by all, although at the end Drink had to kvetch about the ending. This is the guy who always alibis Red River with its atrocious ending. Hey, if RR gets a pass, I think TBRO is entitled to one as well.

Looking at IMDb, I found a couple of interesting nuggets. The first:
Quote
The bulk of the picture was shot in Israel, and director Samuel Fuller remarked that it was unsettling after a scene was shot when the German soldiers and SS troops pull would take off their helmets and Fuller would see them wearing yarmulkes, and between takes they would be sitting around the set in full Nazi uniform speaking Hebrew or reading the Torah.

The second bit of interest comes from the fact that at one time the film, in certain quarters, was suppressed because it was thought to be a porno. How could such a misapprehension have occurred? Just say the title aloud with the following emphasis: The Big RED One.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: drinkanddestroy on August 11, 2014, 10:30:35 AM
Yesterday Drink and I were at MoMA to, among other things, view the film. A good time was had by all, although at the end Drink had to kvetch about the ending. This is the guy who always alibis Red River with its atrocious ending. Hey, if RR gets a pass, I think TBRO is entitled to one as well.



Go read the Red River thread again. Nobody bashes the RR ending more than I do. (Especially after reading the original book the movie was based on, and seeing how awesome the real ending was, I bashed it even more.) All I said is that the AWFUL ATROCIOUS TERRIBLE MISERABLE ending doesn't mean that RR is not a great movie.


The Big Red One would not be a great movie no matter what the ending.

But yeah, the ending is stupid. Especially right after showing us the crematorium, we're supposed to believe that Marvin would be frantically trying to save this Nazi because, gasp, the war is over? Even when he thought the war wasn't over, he had no problem killing a man who was clearly surrendering - he was not holding a weapon and had his arms up. So now I am supposed to believe that he's frantically trying to save this guy's life ... to make up for his similar sin in WWI?


In TBRO, that Nazi they get at the end, he may not have been involved in the Holocaust, he was "merely" fighting the Americans. Still, after showing us a lengthy piece about the concentration camps and how Marvin rescued that boy, I'm not buying his frantic saving of the Nazi, even if it is a few hours after the war ended. If I saw a Nazi today, 69 years after the war ended, I'd tear him apart piece by piece.

.... And btw, one Nazi was hiding in the crematorium? Really?  ... I just finished watching Shoah a few days ago.

Anyway, this was my first viewing of TBRO in any version. It's like a bunch of different episodes. (Yet in every one, the narrator has no shortage of big, fat cigars in a war zone - and (except one brief moment where he takes  a cigar from a dead soldier)  nary an explanation of how he got them. Carrying around all them fat cigars, I don't know how he had any room for ammo .... But I generally did enjoy the episodes... I wonder if the reason they seem to be unrelated episodes is cuz of the restoration, maybe the restoration restored some of it but didn't get every single scene that Fuller wanted? Or maybe it wasn't properly edited? Did the original version have more continuity? I have no idea, I didn't read a thing about either version.

Anyway, I guess I'd give this a 7/10

yes DJ, a good time was had by all  ;)


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: stanton on August 11, 2014, 01:50:28 PM
Drink, I often think you shouldn't watch film before you are around 70, and then will probably understand a little more about how life really is. And that mankind often does things which do not make necessarily sense or look like logical behaviour.

Or that you should at least not watch films which don't come without a tinker guidance. ;)

I think the ending of The Big Red One is great. Fuller at least was in the war, so he may know a few things about absurdity.
TBRO is of course a great film, but maybe a bit too long in the reconstructed version. It works well enough in the theatrical version, which mostly leaves out complete episodes. And is of course less complex. But the aesthetic mixture of "realism" and some touches of surrealism is already there.

http://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=2789


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: drinkanddestroy on August 11, 2014, 09:58:50 PM
Stanton, whether you want to argue on "logical" terms or on "realistic" terms, there's no way Marvin would try to save the Nazi like that. Go read about what the American soldiers did to Nazis they caught. Let's just say that the civil rights groups wouldn't have been too pleased. I read one particular book by a Dachau survivor: when the Americans liberated Dachau, there were still Nazis there that hadn't escaped, and the American soliders let the former inmates have their way with their former tormentors. (This particular author/survivor happened to have been a peaceful religious man and said that he and many of the other religious survivors didn't take part in the revenge some of the other inmates did - not that they were wrong, but somehow many of the religious people couldn't bring themselves to do it. Still, many survivors did tear these Nazis apart, the American soldiers there weren't too concerned about law and order or laws of war, and God bless them for it. Whether you wanna talk about what "logically" should happen or what actually did happen, the ending was bullshit. I know Fuller was in the war, but I didn't read about his experiences, and I have no idea whether or not he was among the troops that liberated the camps .... But plenty of shit that was done by the Americans to the Germans in WWII wouldn't have pleased those concerned with laws of war.
I know you get all bent outta shape at the idea that Nazis shouldn't be treated like human beings, but that's your problem. Doesn't change history.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: stanton on August 12, 2014, 02:18:00 AM
Yes, but that all has not much to do with what I have written, it only adds to what I have written.

The point of the end is of course that it is somehow absurd what Marvin does. Saying "there's no way Marvin would try to save the Nazi like that" shows a certain lack of imagination (and of knowledge), which is quite a problem in many of your reflections on films.

And your usual conclusion that I "get all bent outta shape at the idea that Nazis shouldn't be treated like human beings" is also completely wrong. If you had understood what I wrote in the past, instead of only making statements by ignoring the context, you wouldn't so often me (and others) allege opinions which are actually closer to the opposite of what I have written.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: dave jenkins on August 12, 2014, 04:19:11 PM
It's like a bunch of different episodes. (Yet in every one, the narrator has no shortage of big, fat cigars in a war zone - and (except one brief moment where he takes  a cigar from a dead soldier)  nary an explanation of how he got them. Carrying around all them fat cigars, I don't know how he had any room for ammo .... But I generally did enjoy the episodes...
Fer cryin' out loud, the cigars are a joke! The mature Fuller is famous for always having a stogie to chomp on, so it's only natural that we see the young Fuller-like-character with one in his mouth in every scene. Part of the amusement is knowing that it would have been impossible for him to always have one in combat. But nonetheless, each time, there it is! Fretting over the logic of it all misses the point entirely. Man, grow a sense of humor, wouldja?


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: drinkanddestroy on August 12, 2014, 10:18:29 PM
Fer cryin' out loud, the cigars are a joke! The mature Fuller is famous for always having a stogie to chomp on, so it's only natural that we see the young Fuller-like-character with one in his mouth in every scene. Part of the amusement is knowing that it would have been impossible for him to always have one in combat. But nonetheless, each time, there it is! Fretting over the logic of it all misses the point entirely. Man, grow a sense of humor, wouldja?

DJ, you were taking quite a different position on Sunday. That's the way you usually are, nice and agreeable in person, a grumpy curmudgeon on the boards  ;)

The cigars shouldn't be a joke cuz this isn't that type of movie. This seems to generally be a pretty serious movie, and Marvin gets his supposed redemption at the end; of course even very serious movies often have lots of moments of humor, but IMO that particular point didn't fit here. The cigars may well have been a reference to Fuller, but I didn't feel that the fact that the narrator has a never-ending supply was meant to be a joke. I mean, it's not a big deal either way, it doesn't influence my opinion on the movie much one way or the other, just something I found funny - not in a comedic way, but in a roll-my-eyes way.

for those of you who have seen the original - does the original version feel more like a straight story and less like disjointed episodes?

courtesy of wikipedia, here is a list of the scenes missing from the original;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Red_One#Restored_scenes

    – Extended scene after the beach landing in North Africa when the squad is resting and eating, more quirky scene involving an Arab boy.
    – The Sarge and the 'Horsemen' are trapped in an ancient Roman colosseum, and are relieved by French Spahi Moroccan cavalry. The scene ends with the Moroccan Goums cutting off the ears of dead Germans.
    – Extended Sicilian landings where the squad engages a machine-gun nest.
    – Omaha Beach, D-Day, extended scene in which the whole infantry company, including Zab, encounter casualties (this was how director Fuller earned his Silver Star on D-Day).
    – Schroeder receives a massage from a French woman whose husband has been killed by German soldiers.
    – Aftermath of the attack on the lunatic asylum, where Griff has sex with a Walloon.
    – Belgian innkeeper uncovers a German infiltrator as the squad eats a meal.
    – Scene showing a general giving an interview to a war correspondent (played by Sam Fuller).
    – Tree-shelling scene extended to include the German artillery piece being destroyed by a Bazooka.
   –  Schroeder booby-trapping a castle, then killing the Frau of the house after he finds that she hates Hitler.
    – The squad approaches a derelict castle, losing one man to a sniper. They capture the sniper, only to discover him to be an adolescent boy, a so-called "Hitler-Jugend".
    – The squad encounters a protest march of old Germans who refuse to let the squad pass until the Sarge threatens to shoot their leader.
    – Schroeder removing his equipment and thus ending his responsibility to fight.


Wikipedia also says that Fuller, in real life, was present at the liberation of the Faulkenau concentration camp.

I liked the acting here, particularly Marvin and Carradine.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: stanton on August 13, 2014, 02:21:33 AM

for those of you who have seen the original - does the original version feel more like a straight story and less like disjointed episodes?


No it doesn't. It can't be anything else than an episodic film, cause there isn't anything else than a lot of episodes. But the episodical storytelling is not really disjointed.

Hmm, ... now I feel the need to re-watch this cigar flic.


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: drinkanddestroy on August 13, 2014, 03:21:38 AM
what's even funnier is that Carradine looks like he is 19 years old (he was actually born in 1954, so he woulda been 26 in 1980) and he is chomping on these big fat cigars you usually associate with older men, the cigars are almost bigger than he is!


Title: Re: The Big Red One (1980) - The Reconstruction
Post by: drinkanddestroy on August 13, 2014, 03:28:54 AM
DJ, that is a very interesting thing you posted from IMDB, about the movie being shot in Israel and Jewish actors wearing yarmulkes under their Nazi-helmet costumes. Thank God, the Thousand Year Reich took a discount of 988 years, so now, in movies, it's the Jews playing Nazis instead of the other way around  :)

Why was the movie was shot in Israel? I don't think I have heard of American films that aren't set in Israel being shot there.