Sergio Leone Web Board
Films of Sergio Leone => Once Upon A Time In America => Topic started by: dave jenkins on June 03, 2005, 11:21:03 PM
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Watched the newly remastered DVD of The Getaway (1972) this weekend, and was struck by the fact that several elements of this film find their way into OUATIA. For example, there are a couple sequences where standard film chronology is ignored, resulting in interesting bits of time displacement. Then there is an important plot point that turns on the placing of a large amount of money inside a train station locker. Finally, a garbage truck has an important role in the story.
Oh, and the actor Richard Bright makes an appearance, who later played one of the goons who gave Jimmy Cleanhands a gasoline bath.
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I seem to remember from Fraylings book that there was a whole host of gangster movies Leone used as inspiration and reference, although I can't recall mention of The Getaway - might have to have another read...
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I think it's more likely both Peckinpah and Leone were referencing older (gangster) films.
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I think redyred is right... i think if anyone is debted to anyone it's peckinpah to leone... when I'm watching the wild bunch I feel like I'm watching leone jr... don't take that the wrong way, cause peckinpah is one of the very few directors I hold as highly an opinion of as I do leone... I just don't know where this seemingly widespread idea is that peckinpah influenced leone.
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I think they influenced each other. The Wild Bunch takes something from Leone, but then DYS takes something from The Wild Bunch. These guys knew what was going on in cinema, knew who the top guns were, the guys they had to beat. It's like the putative rivalry between the Beach Boys and the Beatles; every time one would release something, the other would assimilate it and try to top it.
Anyway, I defy anyone to watch Steve McQueen in The Getaway looking desperately into a train station locker and NOT think of Noodles in a similar plight. And when Steve and Ali McGraw get dumped into the back of a garbage truck, well, all I can tell you is the Leone must have seen that scene and, perhaps unconciously, transmuted it into that famous moment in his last film.
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don't take what I said the wrong way, I'm not denying leone had any influence on leone, I'm just saying debt may be a strong word, anyway, I do agree with you about the locker and the garbage truck, but redyred's theory sounds likely... those things seem to standard to have originated in the 70's or 80's... more likely the 30's and 40's and probably movies that they both saw and admired.
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I don't think Peckinpah and Leone owe each other in the slightest. I don't see any blatant ripping off between the two. They worked within the same genre during the same time period. Naturally, some themes and plot devices overlap. I think that's par for the course. I'm just so damn glad they did what they did. Between the two of them, that's a lot of great, great, great filmmaking.
As for The Getaway and OUATIA... that's a pretty interesting observation. I happen to own both dvd's and never once did I notice this connection. I'm going to have to re-evaluate. Other than these few instances though, these films don't have much in common. The Getaway was "just a genre picture" for Peckinpah. Albeit, a very good genre picture. He wanted a hit. OUATIA is Leone's magnum opus that he'd been planning for years.
I wonder if Leone really was referencing Peckinpah. Could be, but like I said before, within the same genre some plot devices often get repeated.
Speaking of The Getaway, it's really funny to me if you contrast a hit film from the early 70's to a hit film of today. The Getaway is far more disturbing than any contemporary hit film. The part where Al Lettieri's character abducts the veteranarian and his wife is so twisted. Ah, Peckinpah...
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As for working in the same genre, for me, and i could be completely off-base but this is how i've always seen it... it's not so much that peckinpah or leone ripped each other off or anything like that, for me, in a general way not related to this specific incident the thread is addressing, it's more about peckinpah getting credit for starting the genre, or doing something completely unique and amazing, more than his actual movies... i mean he gets credit for doing something completely new with the wild bunch simply because he was the first american to do it, if it were a spaghetti western, besides being a great one, it would not have been anything revolutionary. He also gets credit for being the first one to make an ultra-violent western when corbucci had been doing it for years... so it's not so much that peckinpah or leone ripped each other off, cause they are two very very different directors, it's just that peckinpah get's a lot of credit for stuff that was being done already in Europe.... that is the way I see it anyhow.
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As for working in the same genre, for me, and i could be completely off-base but this is how i've always seen it... it's not so much that peckinpah or leone ripped each other off or anything like that, for me, in a general way not related to this specific incident the thread is addressing, it's more about peckinpah getting credit for starting the genre, or doing something completely unique and amazing, more than his actual movies... i mean he gets credit for doing something completely new with the wild bunch simply because he was the first american to do it, if it were a spaghetti western, besides being a great one, it would not have been anything revolutionary. He also gets credit for being the first one to make an ultra-violent western when corbucci had been doing it for years... so it's not so much that peckinpah or leone ripped each other off, cause they are two very very different directors, it's just that peckinpah get's a lot of credit for stuff that was being done already in Europe.... that is the way I see it anyhow.
Right on, I can see your point, although I'm unclear about a few things. I'm not exactly sure what credit Peckinpah is given, as you have stated.
First of all, I think a few things are worth mentioning. I'm a 24 year old American. I'm lucky to find people who know these two directors by name, let alone give any sort of credit to them. Maybe it's my demographic (probably). Maybe 24 year old Americans have no sense of film history (partially true). I don't know a lot of people to talk to about old Westerns, save for my friends who I've introduced these movies to. Otherwise, I wouldn't waste my time at work by posting on message boards about movies made long before I was born. You've stated that Peckinpah has been given some sort of credit, which I assume must be attributed to people with whom you are peers. So, I'm a little in the dark regarding who's giving who credit for what.
That said, I think the general notion is that The Wild Bunch was the most violent American film of it's time. There were precursors, such as Bonnie and Clyde and other films that had moments of relatively extreme violence. But no American film before The Wild Bunch contained such overt violence. This appears to be an accepted notion that I can vouch for as I'm not aware of a more violent American film prior to 1969.
Obviously censors were pretty strong in America at that time, and still are but in a different way. In Europe, as you said, it was another story. Some claim that the only reason American audiences flocked to see Blow Up and other European films was because of sensationalism. Apparently no one had ever seen pubic hair before. Probably not.
It seems that your beef is with spaghetti westerns not getting more credit for their depiction of violence. (?) I can't say I'm an expert on that topic. I love Leone, but it never made me want to see other spaghetti westerns just because they're spaghetti westerns. I've seen a few, and have a lot more on my long list of movies to see.
To me, Leone's films are not that violent. They were for their time, but they are more remembered now for their style. The violence in his films seem to be more about the buildup rather than carnage. There is usually a great lead into the violence, and then it's over rather quickly. The Tuco torture scene would be an exception. I don't see how the violence in Leone's films could've influenced Peckinpah.
Peckinpah's violence is characterized by quick editing, the use of slow motion and montage. If he ripped this style off of someone else, I'm not aware of it. If that's the case, I'd like to see it. As far as I know, he's pretty original in that respect. The man certainly had his own style. His films are unique in their depiction of violence and the recurrent themes he used. One of the things I like most about his films is how personal they are. I wouldn't credit him with inventing the Western, as that's obviously untrue. Which leads me to ask what credit you feel Peckinpah has been unjustly given?
I wouldn't say that Leone's work bears a strong influence from Peckinpah. I just don't see it. Leone has such a distinct style, it's hard for me to imagine anyone else having anything to do with it. Maybe David Lean, in terms of the scope. Every Leone film feels like an epic. I think it's telling that he made such few films. They're all so fully realized, and I think Leone is only starting to get the credit he deserves. What a slap in the face that they butchered his last film like that. No one should have the right to tell a master like that how to do his job. Despicable. Especially considering some of the hacks making films today. They dont have a fraction of his vision, but they possess ten times the freedom to indulge themselves.
Regardless, in the end it doesn't really matter. I don't watch Peckinpah or Leone's films to see violence and carnage. It's the storytelling that keeps me coming back to them. Some of my friends suppose that I like violent movies. I say I like good movies that just happen to have a lot of violence.
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Phew! Maybe I should change my name to WINDBAG.
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ok, 4 things I have to clarify... first I'm only a 19 year old american so the only information I really have on the subject is from watching television shows, surfing the internet and reading articles and books and things.
Second, when I was refering to peckinpah getting credit for violence that already existed in films over seas(spaghetti's specifically) I wasn't refering to leone, his movies are pretty mild when it comes to violence. I was thinking of someone like corbucci.
Third, the thing I constantly hear about the wild bunch, more than peckinpah himself, is that it is somehow revolutionary, the first of it's kind, and they mean themes, violence, direction, and story. The problem I have is that it looks so much like your average spaghetti western, plenty of which were made before 1969. Granted it is a great movie, but it's essentially peckinpah, a fantastic director, making an american spaghetti-like western, that is really the only way I see it as the first of it's kind... he, the wild bunch mostly, is given credit for revolutionizing the western, changing it, when clearly that was done a while ago with the european western. thats just the way I see it anyhow.
fourth, I'm pretty sure his slow motion stylized violence is of peckinpah's creation, I'm not claiming anything on that, it's part of the reason that peckinpah is my second favorite director.
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First off, interesting topic! ;D
I agree that both directors may have referenced each other. I've not seen "The Getaway", so I can't comment on that, but "The Wild Bunch" has minor-but-noticeable references to Leone's films (the duster coats, the POV shot of the stagecoach, the blowing up of the bridge, the camera angle as Mapache's train pulls out of the telegraph station, etc.), as OUATITW appears to reference "Ride The High Country" (Joel McCrea's death scene=Cheyenne's), and certainly DYS to TWB (the pissing on the ants). And Leone apparently used "Major Dundee" as something of a reference point when making GBU.
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you know now that I think of it, the showdown at the end of Ride The High Country is the only showdown I've seen that resembles anything like a leone showdown, it reminds me of the GBU final showdown, only quicker... It's hard to deny the influence they had on each other... I'm just trying to say that the Wild Bunch specifically, although one of the best westerns out there, was nothing revolutionary or new.
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Gramps, TWB actually was revolutionary, but not for the reasons usually mentioned. Peckinpah's greatest innovation was his editing style, a departure from both the classical Hollywood practice and the approach Eisenstein (and his French New Wave followers) took. At the time it was released, TWB was composed of more separate pieces of film than any other movie that had come before it, and by a wide margin. Rapid cutting was a radical new practice, one that allowed P to show viewers a particular action from several points of view (including slo-mo) in quick succession. The intended result was not to keep viewers in the moment longer (although it did that), but to give a particular experience fuller expression. Viewers might then have a more complete understanding of an event (in the same way that a viewer of a cubist painting might be said to have a more complete understanding of the painter's subject).
Needless to say, this was very different from what Leone was up to, who was capable of some very long takes, and who seemed, at times, to be trying to bring time to a stop.
Frayling, in his new book, has a chapter called "The Leone Legacy" and makes the following point: "Reviewers at the time saw similarities in the two directors' approaches to violence, which was missing the point. True, both approaches were highly stylized. But Leone was interested in the rituals preceding violent confronatations; Peckinpah in the impact of a bullet as the gun was fired" (182).
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Just out of curiosity, has Frayling stated his views on TWB? I know that he refers to his children as "The Wild Bunch" in the introduction to his books, and has a big picture of "The Walk Thing" at the beginning of Spaghetti Westerns, even though that film really isn't one of those. And yet I seem to recall him criticizing Peckinpah in that same book for being too concerned with historical accuracy (something I don't necessarily agree with). Just curious.
In "Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid" (which I've not seen) I've heard that the death of Slim Pickens' character is based on that of Mr. Morton from OUATITW, for what it's worth. ::)
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Peckinpahs films - over violent and too much slow mo its worse than watching a John Woo film. Pat Garrett was Ok I suppose, what was the point of banning Straw Dogs I've seen worse on The Cartoon Network. Best place for old Sam is next to the Nevada Kid in My Name Is Nobody. Sergio owes as much to Peckin-yawn as Tuco owes to Angel Eyes.
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Peckinpahs films - over violent and too much slow mo its worse than watching a John Woo film. Pat Garrett was Ok I suppose, what was the point of banning Straw Dogs I've seen worse on The Cartoon Network. Best place for old Sam is next to the Nevada Kid in My Name Is Nobody. Sergio owes as much to Peckin-yawn as Tuco owes to Angel Eyes.
:o Go stuff yourself, you tasteless maroon. :P
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Ha, yeah. Your post was very amusing, but honestly your taste stinks.
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Dave Jenkins brings up a good point about the editing in Peckinpah's films. I read a good chunk of this one book, Sam Peckinpah's Feature Films by Bernard Frank Dukore. In it the author goes into extraneous detail about the editing of his films. Kind of ridiculous actually. I can't remember the exact statistics, but it was one of the most heavily edited pictures of that time. Supposedly some of the cuts are so quick as to be imperceptible. All of Peckinpah's films are edited pretty damn well. Actually, The Getaway has a great opening sequence, in regards to the editing.
Groggy, about Pat Garrett and Billy The Kid... Slim Pickens death scene is quite memorable. Just about as memorable as him riding on a bomb in Dr. Strangelove. The guy had a knack for dying memorably. I'm not sure it's a reference to Morton in OUATITW, but who knows? Either way, it needs to be released on dvd NOW.
Grandpa Chum or anybody, I'd like to know what spaghetti westerns you might recommend. Corbucci or otherwise. I've got a bunch of them on my Netflix queue, not sure where to start. Although I must say, I don't expect any to be as good as Leone.
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when it comes to spaghettis in my mind there are only 3 directors that REALLY do it for me, Leone, Corbucci, And Castellari... given the nature of the thread I really have to recomend KEOMA, as it is like a big mix of Leone and Peckinpah... full of both operatic showdowns, slow motion deaths, extreme close-ups, and plenty of badass spaghetti western 'gags' to boot(I only call them gags for no other term to use, they aren't really meant for comedy but you probably get what I mean). In fact I don't think any other film even comes close to succeeding(or even attempting?) to meld the two greats' styles together.
Other than that companeros and the big gundown are the only other spaghettis that in my mind really stand up next to leone. there are plenty of good ones, but those are the three great ones, that i've seen anyhow.
after just typing all that I realize you probably have already seen those 3, unless you really are starting from scratch.
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Other than that companeros and the big gundown are the only other spaghettis that in my mind really stand up next to leone. there are plenty of good ones, but those are the three great ones, that i've seen anyhow.
after just typing all that I realize you probably have already seen those 3, unless you really are starting from scratch.
Actually, I haven't seen them. I love Leone, but I'm a bit of a novice as far as spaghetti westerns go. Isn't "The Big Gundown" really hard to find? The others are in my queue.
Speaking of spaghetti westerns, I've always felt that the term was sort of inappropriate. By now it's an accepted handle that's been applied to the genre. However, I think it belittles the achievements of Leone and other Italian filmmakers. To less informed people it pretty much says "badly dubbed, poorly made westerns made by a bunch of greaseballs who don't know anything about the west." Maybe I'm taking it too seriously, but believe me it's not something I lose sleep about. I just can't help but think that the term has contributed to Leone's lack of recognition..
This is me in my darkest hour of political correctness.
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Dave, Richard Bright was also in "Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid", but I think it's more likely that Leone knew him from "The Godfather" films (he was Michael's bodyguard in all three).
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Thanks, Groggy, those are both good things to know.
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I think the safest thing to say is that both men were aware of each other's work, but both men shot entierly different looking pictures.
As stated above, Sam's innovation was not his use of bloody squibs, or his use of slow motion. Rather it was his use of multiple cameras running at different speeds covering the same action, then cutting them with rapid fire editing, something not done since the silent era.
Poor Elisha Cook Jnr's death is SHANE is still powerfully violent, even today (I'm always surprised when Jack Palance pulls the trigger, no matter how often I watch it). And slow motion violence was not new in the Western either. Paul Newman bit the dust in slow mo in THE LEFT HANDED GUN way back in 1958.
If anything influenced this, it was probabaly the slow motion death in the duel near the start of THE SEVEN SAMURAI, which brings us neatly to the one film-maker who undoubtedly did influence Leone, Akira Kurasawa.
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Peckinpah often acknowledged his debt to Kurosawa, though the slow-motion violence in "Seven Samurai" is nowhere near as violent or protracted as in, say, "The Wild Bunch".
As I've said before, I think Peckinpah and Leone may have cross-referenced each other's work in their various films, but I hardly think you could say either has a "debt" to the other.
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As stated above, Sam's innovation was not his use of bloody squibs, or his use of slow motion. Rather it was his use of multiple cameras running at different speeds covering the same action, then cutting them with rapid fire editing, something not done since the silent era.
Interestingly, I recently watched _Jules and Jim_ (for the first time) and noticed that the scene in which Jeanne Moreau throws herself into the canal was shot, apparently, in a very similar way. At any rate, you see her (or her stunt double) falling through space from three different angles is rapid succession. Could Peckinpah have been inspired by this?
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If anything influenced this, it was probabaly the slow motion death in the duel near the start of THE SEVEN SAMURAI, which brings us neatly to the one film-maker who undoubtedly did influence Leone, Akira Kurasawa.
Was Kurosawa influenced by PUDOVKIN ? Check out his slo-mo work in the stunning DESERTER (1933).
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Interestingly, I recently watched _Jules and Jim... Could Peckinpah have been inspired by this?
Peckinpah had already shot with multiple cameras. When Lou Lombardo, the young editor Sam had hired to cut THE WILD BUNCH showed him a slow mo death sequence he had assembled for a TV show called FELONY SQUAD, he instantly saw what he would experiment with, shooting in Mexico far from studio interference. If he was inspired by any one it was Lombardo.
Truffaut, whatever I may think of him as a film maker (not much) had a huge fund of his own to work from as a critic. He is himself possibly quoting from Abel Gance's NAPOLEON or Carl Dreyer's PASSION OF JOAN OF ARC.
If JULES ET JIM inspired anything, how about the menage a trois in GIU LA TESTA?
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"Major Dundee" featured lengthy slow-motion battle scenes before it was cut by the studio.
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Peckinpah had already shot with multiple cameras. When Lou Lombardo, the young editor Sam had hired to cut THE WILD BUNCH showed him a slow mo death sequence he had assembled for a TV show called FELONY SQUAD, he instantly saw what he would experiment with, shooting in Mexico far from studio interference. If he was inspired by any one it was Lombardo.
Truffaut, whatever I may think of him as a film maker (not much) had a huge fund of his own to work from as a critic. He is himself possibly quoting from Abel Gance's NAPOLEON or Carl Dreyer's PASSION OF JOAN OF ARC.
If JULES ET JIM inspired anything, how about the menage a trois in GIU LA TESTA?
Now that's a thought.
What kind of time-frame are we talking about on this Peckinpah and Lombardo thing? Before SP had even started making features? Also, which (possible) quotes from Gance and Dreyer are you referring to? I'm not looking for an exhaustive list, just a fer-instance or two.
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As I've said before, I think Peckinpah and Leone may have cross-referenced each other's work in their various films, but I hardly think you could say either has a "debt" to the other.
Uh, aren't you being a bit pedantic, Your Grogginess? Choose whatever formulation you wish: "influence," "cross-reference," "debt." Among friends, these terms all pretty much mean the same thing.
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Now that's a thought.
What kind of time-frame are we talking about on this Peckinpah and Lombardo thing? Before SP had even started making features? Also, which (possible) quotes from Gance and Dreyer are you referring to? I'm not looking for an exhaustive list, just a fer-instance or two.
To answer your first question, according to David Weddle's book IF THEY MOVE... KILL 'EM!, Sam was so wary of the studio destroying another film of his, as they had with MAJOR DUNDEE, he made sure he had a young unknown editor (but with talent) on his his side for THE WILD BUNCH gig.
He had met Lombardo when shooting NOON WINE for TV, in his first "wilderness period". Lombardo was part of the camera crew, but Peckinpah, while having a drink with him, learned that his ambition lay in editing.
Shooting on that film started on March 25th, 1968, and Lombardo was hired just before the crew went south to start principal photography. According to Lombardo, he showed Sam his multi speed, multi POV TV sequence (an episode called MY MOMMY GOT LOST) just before production started.
As seems to be the case with many of Pekinpah's movie's, his editor was at work on cutting the picture as soon as rushes were available (mainly because of the sheer quantity of material running through the six cameras).
For the second question, during the snowball fight sequence in NAPOLEON, the editor cuts frantic, multi speed, multi camera shots into a delerious montage, probabaly the best bit in the (often pompous) picture. There are even shots where clockwork cameras were thrown in the air, and clips used from the results.
Thinking about the Dreyer film in retrospect, I think I was a bit hasty with that one. If he was quoting anything from Dreyer, it would have been from VAMPYRE, rather than JOAN OF ARC, which I don't think has any slow mo action in it. VAMPYRE does (the whole film feels like a stifling, slow motion dream), and Truffaut wrote an interesting short essay on it called THE WHITENESS OF CARL DRYER. Been about 20 years since I last saw it though, so I can't name specific moments.