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Films of Sergio Leone => Other Films => Topic started by: Marco Leone on June 08, 2005, 02:23:20 PM



Title: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Marco Leone on June 08, 2005, 02:23:20 PM
And here's my latest review......

"Sartana (played superbly by John Garko) has one of the greatest entrances on screen of all the Spaghetti protagonists. When accused of looking like a scarecrow, he utters the classic line "I am your pallbearer" before gunning down all the bandits facing him. A classic moment, with the black clad Sartana setting the scene perfectly for this Gothic tinged western.

The story itself is a very complicated affair, and one which I'm not completely sure I followed from beginning to end (I blame the wine consumption). In simple terms, the story evolves around a stagecoach robbery and murder (with the culprits themselves hijacked and massacred by Lasky - played by the ever brilliant William Berger - and his gang). Enter Sartana, in the midst of further double crossing and more double crossing. And cue bloodshed aplenty!

Sartana combines the gadgetry of Parolini's later Sabata movies, with the darkness and brutality of Django. There are classic performances from Garko and Berger together with the familiar faces of Fernando Sancho and Klaus Kinski.

The success of Sartana is clearly demonstrated by the string of sequels (and name-checks) that followed. And rightly so, the character is in equal parts cool, mysterious and deadly. Much like the film. I just wish I understood it better (time to put away the bottle, and rewind the video perhaps)".

Any reviews or comments would be appreciated, as always, at the webpage below.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on March 29, 2006, 11:08:42 AM



Ok this thread is dedicated to making complete sense out of the winding and over complex plot of the film "If you meet Sartana, Pray for your death". Me and Banjo will start from scratch here.
For those who actually understand what is going on in Sartana, please dont post the explanation, it would ruin all the fun.

Cast
Sartana:The ghostly gunfighter
Lasky:the bad guy
Holman:The fat guy who is friends with the banker
Stoole:the banker
Tampico:weird mexican general. must be in charge of a renegade army.
Morgan: minor bad guy.

 Banjo: I rewatched it last night but only the first 40 minutes of it. This is what I have so far...

Sartana follows a stagecoah carrying insurance papers. A nasty named Morgan shoots all the passengers of the stagecoach including the driver. Sartana pretends to be shot off horse back and slams to the floor. Morgans band of cut throats come out of the wood work and search the coach for the insurence papers. they find them, sartana gets up and blows everybody to hell, save Morgan who he allows to flee.
Later that day Sartana rides into town where the occupants of the town are loading a large casket filled with "gold" onto a stagecoach.

First question...
Holman says some thing to Tampico about the shipment, He mentions to the fat mexcian that he will get 50% of what is in the casket...? what is this about?

moving on...
The gold is loaded onto the stage. passengers enter the stage. One of the passengers is Tampico's inside man "Roy". others enter, the likes of a woman, a sleeping man and a preacher. The stage leaves the town. Once it gets far enough the rest of Tampico's men(or mexican bandits) ambush the stage, Roy gets trigger happy and kills all the passengers. outside the bandits kill the driver and all the guards. The coach is stopped. Just before the mexicans can get there greedy hands on the loot, Lasky and his gang ambush them and kill them all, Roy included. Lasky rides off while his boys load up the gold on there wagon and head off to the rendevous point where they will meet up with Lasky...

question the second..
How do you spell rondavou?

Once everybody has left the scene of the crime, Sartana shows up and "shuffles" about the corpses. He takes a musical pocket watch from Tampico's best man "el moreno" who is now a corpse. The scene switches to Tampico suspecting El Moreno has cheated him and taken the gold, because he has not shown up yet. Meanwhile Lasky's gang reach the rendevous point with the "gold" and are all killed by Lasky with a gatling gun. Lasky goes for the casket and opens it only to find out the casket is filled with rocks, Lasky hears "el moreno's" (now sartana's) musical watch and gets scared that someone has seen him kill everybody and runs off.

Lasky rides into to town and collects the 5,000 dollars from bank owner stoole for killing tampico's men and stowing away the "gold". He does not tell them the casket is full of rocks though. later that night, Sartana enters  saloon and meets Lasky at a poker table, There Sartana cleans everybody out and ends up in a gunfight right outside the saloon.Sartana leaves the town and Lasky asks his remaining gang members to follow the mysterious gunfighter. Sartana rides off into the desert being chased by lasky's men. Our hero leads the band of ruffians into the gulch where lasky killed some of his own men just the other day, Lasky's posse get a look at the crime scene and go after Lasky intent on killing him for his treacherous acts against his own men. Lasky lures his men into a trap and kills them, he once again hears the musical watch and runs off.

I shall write more. Banjo see how Iam doing so far...tell me if I am missing something.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 29, 2006, 02:02:49 PM
I'm sure the answer to your first question is that Tampico is being paid half of the contents of the "gold " in the casket(he's not aware of the insurance scam at this point!).Lasky who is aware of the robbery and insurance fiddle from sleeping with Holmans wife (as we find out later )has already bribed the bankers (for which he's paid off in his first scene with them) but decides to also to foil the robbery to get his own hands on the gold.Roy is Laskys man!
   The reason there's rocks in the casket is because the bankers don't trust Tampico(or his right hand man Moreno as well as suspecting Laskys men of trying to snatch it because they say in a later scene that they didn't like to see the casket in Tampicos or Laskys hands)not to keep it all to himself but they need someone to do the robbery!
    Lasky must've had a former partner before Morgan because in the barbershop scene Sartana relates the story of this "other man" who was on a 50/50 agreement  of the takings  with Lasky and ended up being "dragged away by a gravedigger".This other man who "got too greedy and wanted it all "was obviously killed by Lasky before he brought in Morgan.
Its spelt rendezvous!!


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on March 30, 2006, 10:06:43 AM
I'm sure the answer to your first question is that Tampico is being paid half of the contents of the "gold " in the casket(he's not aware of the insurance scam at this point!).Lasky who is aware of the robbery and insurance fiddle from sleeping with Holmans wife (as we find out later )has already bribed the bankers (for which he's paid off in his first scene with them) but decides to also to foil the robbery to get his own hands on the gold.Roy is Laskys man!
   The reason there's rocks in the casket is because the bankers don't trust Tampico(or his right hand man Moreno as well as suspecting Laskys men of trying to snatch it because they say in a later scene that they didn't like to see the casket in Tampicos or Laskys hands)not to keep it all to himself but they need someone to do the robbery!
    Lasky must've had a former partner before Morgan because in the barbershop scene Sartana relates the story of this "other man" who was on a 50/50 agreement  of the takings  with Lasky and ended up being "dragged away by a gravedigger".This other man who "got too greedy and wanted it all "was obviously killed by Lasky before he brought in Morgan.
Its spelt rendezvous!!


How is Roy's lasky's man? Roy signaled the mexicans with the bandana(to notify he was there) when he was inside the stagecoach. And if Roy is Lasky's man why would Lasky kill him for no apparent reason?

As for the "other man" I always had a theory that it was "Sartana". There are many references to him and Lasky being partners in the past. Lasky killed Sartana and he comes back as a ghost. Of course it is not logical but it is interesting.

I wrote a bit more on my first post(where i wIll continue to type the story as we add more to it in the bottom posts).


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 30, 2006, 02:05:35 PM
Roy is Laskys man working undercover with Tampico's men,and he indicates this by saying "well done Lasky" as he steps out of the stagecoach showing no signs of surprise at whats happened.As we see during the rest of the movie Lasky shows no scruples in eliminating any of his men at any time which would presumably mean a bigger share of the takings for himself!
I'm not sure about your "other man" theory.Can you tell me exactly which  references you are refering to?


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 30, 2006, 02:10:50 PM
Leone Admirer-just before i go,bearing in mind your pending Sartana review it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the plot!
See you all tommorow!


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Leone Admirer on March 30, 2006, 04:27:30 PM
I'll take care to give it specific mention  :)


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on March 31, 2006, 12:52:40 AM
Roy is Laskys man working undercover with Tampico's men,and he indicates this by saying "well done Lasky" as he steps out of the stagecoach showing no signs of surprise at whats happened.As we see during the rest of the movie Lasky shows no scruples in eliminating any of his men at any time which would presumably mean a bigger share of the takings for himself!
I'm not sure about your "other man" theory.Can you tell me exactly which  references you are refering to?

Still the whole killing Roy buissness makes little sense to me. True Lasky kills his own men left and right but he never does it with an audience. One sequence has Sartana being chased after Lasky's men, Sartana leads lasky's gang to the gulch where Lasky killed a handful of his own gang at. As a resutl the gang chasing sartana go after Lasky to kill him.
with that scene the film makes it pretty clear that lasky's men dont take kindly to lasky treating them as target practice.

which begs the question, why did he kill roy in front of his gang? And why did the gang have no scruples about it? To me, Roy was Tampico's man. When he got out of the stagecoach he realized he was now in the custody of lasky's group, so he thought to himself "if you cant beat em, join em". He says "good job lasky" because he had no other choice but to promote lasky's behavoir, he was hoping it would work too, but it didnt(that is my take anyway).

As for my "Sartana being the other man" theory...it just makes sense!
here is an example...just before sartana kills lasky at the end Lasky spouts out...

"I WAS RIGHT! YOU ARE THE..."

That is all he can get out before Sartana finishes him off. This statement brings up a few questions...


what was lasky right about?
what did he suspect about sartana(that apparently he was proved correct)?

The statment also hints of a relationship between the two before the movie started.

another example to back my theory up is when Sartana tells the "story" of the stolen casket full of rocks to Dusty the coffin maker. Sartana tells the whole story to dusty, dusty asks "who told you that story?" and Sartana tells him a man told him, a man that wanted 50% of the gold lasky stole(when he says the man wanted 50% he looks straight at lasky).

again, What other man? Nobody told him anything. My guess is he was talking about himself in the story. After all was he not there to witness the "story" himself? Nobody told him about it.
The "other man" he refers too is himself.


I wrote more on the first post Banjo...see how I am doing.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 31, 2006, 02:16:33 AM
Lasky rides into to town and collects the 5,000 dollars from bank owner stoole for killing tampico's men and stowing away the "gold". He does not tell them the casket is full of rocks though. I shall write more. Banjo see how Iam doing so far...tell me if I am missing something.
It isn't $5000 for killing Tampicos men-why would they pay him to do that?It's pure blackmail!
The way i see the scene is this:-
Lasky walks into the bankers office and the first thing he does is give a long lingering but knowing look at Evelyn Holman and then tips his hat to her and with her reaction you know that something has been going down with those two.At  the same time both Stool and Holman are looking at Lasky with utter distain.Holman says to Stool mockingly "Why Stool i didn't know you had another partner!" to which the agitated Stool replies "Why don't you shut up Holman?" and then annoyingly says to Lasky "You'll get whats coming to you Lasky" and here Lasky ups the bribe "deal" from $2000 to $5000 saying "It's just an advance,don't forget if you want to collect the insurance".Lasky exits and then Holman sarcastically tells Stool "And now we will have to wait for some blackmail from the mayors widow!"
Firecracker,now does that sound to you anything other than blackmail.Its the only thing that makes sense.
    And Lasky does not tell them about the rocks in the casket because he knows very well they've done something else with the gold!


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on March 31, 2006, 02:22:06 AM
yes I see now. it is blackmail.

and what of my "other man theory"?


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 31, 2006, 02:24:52 AM
Still the whole killing Roy buissness makes little sense to me. True Lasky kills his own men left and right but he never does it with an audience. One sequence has Sartana being chased after Lasky's men, Sartana leads lasky's gang to the gulch where Lasky killed a handful of his own gang at. As a resutl the gang chasing sartana go after Lasky to kill him.
with that scene the film makes it pretty clear that lasky's men dont take kindly to lasky treating them as target practice.

which begs the question, why did he kill roy in front of his gang? And why did the gang have no scruples about it? To me, Roy was Tampico's man. When he got out of the stagecoach he realized he was now in the custody of lasky's group, so he thought to himself "if you cant beat em, join em". He says "good job lasky" because he had no other choice but to promote lasky's behavoir, he was hoping it would work too, but it didnt(that is my take anyway).

As for my "Sartana being the other man" theory...it just makes sense!
here is an example...just before sartana kills lasky at the end Lasky spouts out...

"I WAS RIGHT! YOU ARE THE..."

That is all he can get out before Sartana finishes him off. This statement brings up a few questions...


what was lasky right about?
what did he suspect about sartana(that apparently he was proved correct)?

The statment also hints of a relationship between the two before the movie started.

another example to back my theory up is when Sartana tells the "story" of the stolen casket full of rocks to Dusty the coffin maker. Sartana tells the whole story to dusty, dusty asks "who told you that story?" and Sartana tells him a man told him, a man that wanted 50% of the gold lasky stole(when he says the man wanted 50% he looks straight at lasky).

again, What other man? Nobody told him anything. My guess is he was talking about himself in the story. After all was he not there to witness the "story" himself? Nobody told him about it.
The "other man" he refers too is himself.


I wrote more on the first post Banjo...see how I am doing.
Roy could've been Laskys undercover man unbeknown to the rest of his men.Tampico's man or Laskys man-either way it doesn't really affect the plot!
   Your "other man" being Sartana theory maybe correct but it could still be just a man who tipped off Sartana about the business with the gold.Again i don't think plotwise we need to worry about this little "story" too much!


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on March 31, 2006, 02:28:14 AM

   Your "other man" being Sartana theory maybe correct but it could still be just a man who tipped off Sartana about the business with the gold.Again i don't think plotwise we need to worry about this little "story" too much!

It is an interesting theory though and worth debating about. I think the film leaves it up for grabs.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 31, 2006, 02:31:23 AM
yes I see now. it is blackmail.
I think this is the major cause of confusion with the movie and once one realises this is blackmail the rest of the plot falls neatly into place and as we know there are further dirty dealings including Stool trying to trick his partner Holman out of the gold.The sleevenote on the Wildeast disc about Lasky and Morgan being in the bankers employ is totally wrong!


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on March 31, 2006, 02:32:31 AM
The sleevenote on the Wildeast disc about Lasky and Morgan being in the bankers employ is totally wrong!

I agree it makes it all very confusing.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 31, 2006, 02:33:47 AM
It is an interesting theory though and worth debating about. I think the film leaves it up for grabs.
Yes you theory may well explain Laskys odd utterances as he dies!


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on March 31, 2006, 02:36:29 AM
Yes you theory may well explain Laskys odd utterances as he dies!

It also shows why Sartana seems to have a personal vendetta with Lasky that he does not have with other villians in the later entries. He always looks a bit angry when around lasky. In the later entries he is cool and calm in front of other villains.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 31, 2006, 02:37:05 AM
Do you still think that this movie is not as good as the other two you have?Since getting the excellent widescreen print of this movie,for various reasons i think its easily the best!


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on March 31, 2006, 02:39:51 AM
Do you still think that this movie is not as good as the other two you have?Since getting the excellent widescreen print of this movie,for various reasons i think its easily the best!

actually now that I have seen it like 9 TIMES THIS WEEK!!!!!
I am starting to actually like it and understand it. I still think it is not as good as the other two though(or other three rather if you include the George Hilton one).


have you seen the hilton one?...it is fun.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 31, 2006, 02:52:31 AM
Well if you compare Light The Fuse... which Shobary rates as the best can you really say that Pierro Lulli(or whatever his name is,you know the Grandville character) is anywhere near as good as Berger?The same goes for the mexican Monk who is nowhere near as entertaining as Tampico.The original has a unique gothic atmosphere(later Sartanas are more played for laughs) with Sartana as this spectral figure whereas the later entries he's just a mere mortal in a straightforward detective story.The confusing  but ultimately decipherable plot is much more interesting.
     The only possible thing i can say is better in the Carmineo movies is the Nicholai soundtracks just have the edge.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on March 31, 2006, 02:56:24 AM
The confusing  but ultimately decipherable plot is much more interesting.
     The only possible thing i can say is better in the Carmineo movies is the Nicholai soundtracks just have the edge.

I agree about the plot of the first Sartana. It makes it that much more fun to sit through over and over again until finally you have figured it out.

Lasky is the best he has faced but there is something about the later  Sartana's I enjoy more though. It must be the sillyness of it all.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 31, 2006, 03:02:52 AM
I agree about the plot of the first Sartana. It makes it that much more fun to sit through over and over again until finally you have figured it out.

Lasky is the best he has faced but there is something about the later  Sartana's I enjoy more though. It must be the sillyness of it all.
Yes theres something a bit more "polished" about Carmineos films-a slightly bigger budget perhaps?-and i like all the stuff with the razor sharp playing cards,Alfie and the organ/machine gun.But theres still something about the original that gives it the feeling of a classic in much the same way as Corbucci's Django which definately does not apply to the others!
I'm looking forward to reading the rest of your Sartana re-construction but i feel we've sort of cracked it-well the beggining part anyway!


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on March 31, 2006, 03:04:31 AM

I'm looking forward to reading the rest of your Sartana re-construction but i feel we've sort of cracked it-well the beggining part anyway!

 ;D the first twenty minutes at most ;D


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 31, 2006, 03:06:12 AM
You've still got a problem with it?


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on March 31, 2006, 03:12:27 AM
You've still got a problem with it?

nope. But I have a problem with the rest of the film still. will just keep going down the road were going and we'll reach the end eventually.

Once "Leone_admirer" watches the film he can join us on our quest to fully understand the sartana plot.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 31, 2006, 03:24:44 AM
I watched I Am Sartana Your Angel Of Death last night in anticipation of his review and i could safely say if it wasn't a Garko Sartana film and didn't have Kinski i could happily live without it!
I have a slight problem with the ending of this movie due mainly to the fast and nearly indecipherable English dubbing but i got the general gist anyway.I would only recommend this for Sartana completists!
   Sorry i have the Hilton Fistful of Lead which is fun though Sabbath is irritating!


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on March 31, 2006, 03:26:10 AM

   Sorry i have the Hilton Fistful of Lead which is fun though Sabbath is irritating!

what!? you kidding me? Sabbath is what got the ball rolling in that film!


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on March 31, 2006, 03:30:50 AM
by the way...how big is Kinski's role in "Angel of death"?


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 31, 2006, 03:30:58 AM
He looks like a ridiculous camera negative of Sartana and the umbrella is embarrassing.His deadpan manner doesn't really work for me and he's not all that far from coming over as camp!


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on March 31, 2006, 03:32:00 AM
He looks like a ridiculous camera negative of Sartana and the umbrella is embarrassing.His deadpan manner doesn't really work for me and he's not all that far from coming over as camp!

The whole film was complete camp to begin with! that was the point!


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 31, 2006, 03:35:05 AM
by the way...how big is Kinski's role in "Angel of death"?
Very substantial for a Kinski part-he's strictly playing for laughs as one of the bounty killers after Sartana but also happens to be the worlds unluckiest gambler-and he truly excells here!!
Unfortunately he disappears way too(20/30 minutes or so) prematurely before the climax of the film.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 31, 2006, 03:36:42 AM
The whole film was complete camp to begin with! that was the point!
I suppose when it comes to Carmineos sw's Hilton always plays it camp when compared to Garko!


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on March 31, 2006, 03:37:16 AM

Unfortunately he disappears way too(20/30 minutes or so) prematurely before the climax of the film.

dissappears or gets killed off?

did you see the kinski interview yet? you would enjoy it.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on March 31, 2006, 03:38:58 AM
I suppose when it comes to Carmineos sw's Hilton always plays it camp when compared to Garko!

Garko comes real close to camp in "Have a nice funeral my friend, Sartana will pay".


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 31, 2006, 03:40:54 AM
disappears or gets killed off?

did you see the kinski interview yet? you would enjoy it.
Do you want me to spoil it for you?
I haven't seen the interview!


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on March 31, 2006, 03:42:42 AM
Do you want me to spoil it for you?
I haven't seen the interview!

no dont.

if you want to see the interview...check my "sw Parodies and related interviews" thread in the "off topic" section.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on April 01, 2006, 09:52:15 PM
This was already getting rather buried under the barrage of "spaghetti league" polls. Dont worry Banjo I have not forgotten this, I just need to watch it again to write some more.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on April 02, 2006, 07:12:26 AM
Just one more thing on the whose man is Roy queston.
I forgot to mention that Lasky calls out for Roy-to say the coast is clear maybe?-before Roy steps off the stagecoach.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on April 02, 2006, 11:26:28 AM
Just one more thing on the whose man is Roy queston.
I forgot to mention that Lasky calls out for Roy-to say the coast is clear maybe?-before Roy steps off the stagecoach.


I saw it as, Lasky knew Roy was in there and he just calls him out to kill him. Roy tries to charm Lasky by complementing his murderous deed by saying "good job Lasky".


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on April 13, 2006, 06:54:05 PM
perhaps its high time we start this up again eh Banjo?


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on April 14, 2006, 04:01:07 AM
Yeau go for it-i hope the movies still reasonably fresh as its been at least a couple of weeks since i last looked!


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on April 15, 2006, 10:25:31 PM
sorry Banjo, Havent gotten around to see this yet. I promise I will give it a view in a few weeks(give me at least two since I will be very busy for the next week or so).

For now why dont you start where we left of to get things going.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on April 16, 2006, 09:14:15 AM
No worries ;)


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on June 14, 2006, 05:16:31 PM
lets keep this close by Banjo. I have a hankering to watch the film again and this plot has yet to be sussed!


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on June 15, 2006, 02:38:45 AM
lets keep this close by Banjo. I have a hankering to watch the film again and this plot has yet to be sussed!
Ready when you are-well sort of,i've got a dozen or so new sw's to look at too! ::)


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on June 15, 2006, 05:43:17 PM
Ready when you are-well sort of,i've got a dozen or so new sw's to look at too! ::)
finish them off first.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Silenzio on March 10, 2007, 03:01:26 PM
Alright, i got done with my repeat viewing of this movie.  I was so eager to understand the plot, that i decided to take notes this time around.  I want to write down this post fast, so that I have a resource to refer back to if I ever am confused about the plot again.

Ok, let me say that I LOVE this movie! The overly complex plot adds to the fun of a repeat viewing.  I am certain that NO man could make sense of this movie with just one viewing, because it throws you into the middle of what has been going on for what seems like a looong time, and, realistically, each person who is involved with the gold has somehow tried to insure that they get it.  This means double crosses galore.  And you don't even understand these double crosses at first, because it's not until much later in the film that you even realize  there was a relationship going on between these people who killed each other in the first place.  Well, I want to provide that build-up and how I believe all the relationships came to be and why everything happened that did happen in this movie:


Ok, first off. Hallman and Stoole, the bankers, want the gold that the bank is transporting, but they can't do the dirty work themselves, they're respected white collar gentlemen. So, they hire a mexican bandit named Tampico to rob the stagecoach of the gold. But, they aren't stupid, they aren't ACTUALLY going to ship the gold and expect that Tampico will gladly take it and bring it back to them, so they stash the gold somewhere else, and fill the transport with rocks. They also hire another man (Lasky) to steal the insurance papers. Without papers, they don't owe anything to the people who had money in the bank.  They hire two different men to do these jobs because they don't want either of them to know the ENTIRE plan.  But Lasky does find out about the stagecoach robbery part of the plan, because he has an inside man in Tampico's gang, Roy.  Roy tells Lasky about the plan to rob the stagecoach, but Roy doesn't know it will be full of rocks, because Tampico doesn't know that it will be full of rocks.  So, when the time comes, Lasky kills all of Tampico's men that robbed the coach, and takes the crate.  When the rest of Lasky's band tries to break into the crate (which Lasky thinks is full of gold) he kills them all.  He opens the crate, and, much to his dismay, there is no gold. 

But, this isn't all that's going on.  After that, there’s a whole second level of stuff going down between the main players in this movie.  First of all, I’ve seen some question on this thread of just who the “other man” is that sartana talks about when he relates his story of the gold in a barber-shop with the crazed undertaker, Morgan and Lasky.  In the story, Sartana says that “There were two men going after the gold. But one was too greedy, he wanted it all for himself.” And when Sartana is asked how the story ended up, he said, “Well, in the end, let’s just say that the greedy man was hauled away in a box by… a gravedigger.”  To which he opens the watch he found on the dead body of El Moreno, and Lasky gets a look on his face like he’s terrified for his life.  I’ve seen earlier in this thread that Banjo and Firecracker have said that the greedy man must be a past associate of Lasky’s who we have no knowledge of.  But I say the greedy man IS Lasky.  Sartana identifies that the “greedy man was hauled off in a box” that Lasky becomes scared.  Sartana is making a direct threat to Lasky’s life.  Even though he’s saying that the greedy man DID die, what he really means is that the greedy man WILL die.  You might be thinking, “Well if Lasky is the GREEDY man, what about the OTHER man?” The OTHER man, who Lasky was going to split the gold with was none other than… EL MORENO!  El Moreno really was going to double-cross Tampico.  He was going to run off with Lasky and split the gold.  Obviously, Moreno and Lasky must have come in contact with each other via Roy, Lasky’s inside man, and come up with this scheme.  However, Lasky double crosses Moreno and kills him when he kills the rest of Moreno’s bunch (thus, Lasky is the greedy man.  He wanted all the money for himself).  He also kills Roy, who he no longer has any use for.  This explains a lot in my mind.  If there was no relationship between Moreno and Lasky, there would be no reason for Lasky to be so terrified of Moreno’s watch tune.  But, of course it would be terrifying if it was from the watch of a man you double-crossed and killed.  A man who (if he were still alive [or if he were a ghost]) would want revenge on you.  And, that’s what I think of Sartana, I think Sartana is (in this movie at least) some kind of phantom that wants to take revenge on Lasky for Moreno.  This all also explains some of the last exchanges of dialogue between Sartana and Lasky.  Lasky’s last words are, “I was right! It is you! You are the g-“ and then Sartana shoots him.  I am positive I hear a “g” sound after Lasky yells “You are the” and the most obvious word that meets the requirement of the first letter “g” is “ghost” in this situation.  Now, you could dismiss this if he said “You are A” but since he said “You are THE” it must mean he was referring to a specific ghost, like the ghost of the man he double-crossed.  Basically, I think Sartana is the avenging angel of Moreno, even though the character of Moreno is killed after his first line of dialogue, he is an omnipresent character in the film.  His watch is always with Sartana, and Tampico is always talking about Moreno. 

Other stuff which I haven’t addressed yet, is the relationship between Jeff Stoole, Al Hallman, and Al’s wife Evelyn.  At first glance, it would appear that it’s very simple, Evelyn is cheating on Hallman with Stoole, and Lasky and Sartana frequently blackmail Stoole about this information.  But, it becomes increasingly obvious throughout the film that Hallman is AWARE of the fact that Stoole and Evelyn are spending nights together.  First of all, when he stares right at them and appears to hear everything in their conversation about how Evelyn will sleep with Jeff that night, and also, after Jeff Stoole gets killed, Hallman says to Evelyn, “Now tampico has the gold, so you can go to him.”  This means that Hallman was allowing Evelyn to sleep with Jeff in order to get any information or scheming about the gold that he might not already know.  But this is dangerous, because it also means that Evelyn has all the information, and you’ll bet your ass she wants the gold too. 

Also, there’s the question of why only Al new the true location of the gold (which he foolishly reveals to Evelyn towards the end, who subsequently shoots him).  It seems to me he told his partner a half-truth: that it was stashed in the casket of the late mayor, but what he didn’t tell his partner, is that he hid it in a new coffin he had a constructed for the mayor, a coffin which would be used especially for the transport of the mayor across the border.  Everybody else thinks that it was stashed in the same coffin that he was buried in, which is not the case.  Which is why this is the coffin where Jeff tells Lasky it was stashed, who, after being beaten, tells Tampico it was stashed there.  When Jeff finds out Tampico is going after the gold, he tries to get there first (only Al knows at this point that the gold is in a different coffin) only to be killed by Tampico and his men. Then Tampico is killed by Lasky, who opens the coffin and finds… more damn rocks.  Lasky is upset.  Lasky shoots Sartana.  Evelyn is able to find out the true location of the gold from her husband Al Hallman. Evelyn kills Al.  Evelyn and Lasky go to the gold.  Lasky finds out that this TRULY is the location of the gold.  Lasky kills Evelyn.  Sartana appears (even though Sartana had been shot at point blank range by Lasky [another reason I think Sartana is an avenging phantom]).  Sartana kills Lasky.  Sartana takes the gold.



I hope this cleared everything up for anybody who was scratching their heads.  If not, ask me a question, and I’ll try to answer it as best I can.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: NotSilenzio on March 10, 2007, 03:27:35 PM
Wow, that synopsis is at least a 12.9 on the Richter Scale of Awesome. But I have two questions:

1. How did you get to rule so much?

2. Will you father my children?


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: NotSilenzio on March 10, 2007, 03:30:21 PM
Oh, but Silenzio, I think that posts like that should have a mandatory warning before them.

I'm thinking something like.





Caution, if you want to get your ass blown, continue reading.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Silenzio on March 10, 2007, 04:01:17 PM
Haha...which current member of the SLWB are you

 ;D    ;)


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on March 11, 2007, 01:36:34 AM
Sartana appears (even though Sartana had been shot at point blank range by Lasky [another reason I think Sartana is an avenging phantom]).  Sartana kills Lasky.  Sartana takes the gold.







No doubt Sartana is a supernatural being in this flick but he survives the gunshot because he uses Dusty's trophy plaque (spelling?) as a bullet proof vest. Not because he is impervious to bullets.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 11, 2007, 06:04:38 AM
Many thanks for restarting this brilliant thread Silenzio.I'm gonna print offyour theories where i can study them easier on a piece of paper and watch through the movie again.
I've only scanned very quickly through it all but i can say straight off that i don't think Stoole & Holman hired Lasky to steal the insurance papers,rather that Lasky(in alliance with  Evelyn)and his partner Morgan stole the insurance papers (i'm sure it actually looked more like a letter than a policy document) as part of the blackmail to the bankers.
  Afterall why would Stoole & Hollman want to steal any insurance papers when it clearly they were intending for the payout to go themselves?


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Silenzio on March 11, 2007, 08:58:14 AM

No doubt Sartana is a supernatural being in this flick but he survives the gunshot because he uses Dusty's trophy plaque (spelling?) as a bullet proof vest. Not because he is impervious to bullets.

I thought the plaque was what he used as a bullet-proof plate in the final showdown with Lasky.  But yours makes more sense, because in that final showdown it was really dark and Sartana started dodging and running really quickly, Lasky probably just missed those times.



Quote from Banjo:
Quote
I've only scanned very quickly through it all but i can say straight off that i don't think Stoole & Holman hired Lasky to steal the insurance papers,rather that Lasky(in alliance with  Evelyn)and his partner Morgan stole the insurance papers (i'm sure it actually looked more like a letter than a policy document) as part of the blackmail to the bankers.
  Afterall why would Stoole & Hollman want to steal any insurance papers when it clearly they were intending for the payout to go themselves?

Maybe I'm not fully understanding what the papers were for.  I assumed that the papers were intended for the people who had money invested in the bank, so that in the event that their money was lost or (in this case) stolen, they could have their money back.  I thought that was why Hallman and Stoole wanted the papers, so that nobody could take their claim to the bank to get their money back.

But, you're probably right, they might not have hired Lasky.  After all, when Lasky comes in to collect the money from Stoole, Hallman has no idea Lasky is in on anything (to which he sarcastically comments, "I didn't know you have another partner!" [remember, I think Hallman knows of the love affair]).  But how do the insurance papers aid in the blackmail? ???


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Silenzio on March 11, 2007, 09:36:25 AM
If you don't want to watch the movie again, I can transcribe the notes I took during the movie.  The whole reason I took them was so that I could look over them again and try to develop theories and such.

In fact, looking at the notes, I can see that my original theory of them hiring Lasky to get the papers is debunked, because SARTANA is actually the one who ends up with the papers.  But the question is, why did Lasky and Morgan want the papers?

The Events of "If You Meet Sartana, Pray For Your Death":

-- Morgan and his gang kill the Wells Fargo guy and take his insurance papers.
-- Sartana kills the entire gang and takes the papers
-- Tampico and Hallman have a chat while the stage is being loaded with the gold. Something to the tune of "You'll get your 50%, Tampico."
-- Tampico sends a man, Roy, into the stage.  Roy signals Moreno and his gang to attack the stage with the bandana.
-- As Moreno is getting the gold, Lasky kills the entire bunch, except Roy, who says, "Good job, Lasky," before he gets shot.  It appears Roy is Lasky's inside man in Tampico's gang.
-- Sartana finds the massacred stage, and takes the watch from Moreno's dead body.
-- Tampico's men think they were double-crossed, because Moreno has not returned yet.
-- Lasky's men try to make off with the gold, but Lasky manages to cut them all down with the help of a gatling gun.
-- Lasky finds that the case is full of rocks.
-- Lasky hears the watch tune up in the hills, and he is obviously extremely agitated (but why would he be if he didn't have some relationship with MORENO!)
-- Back at the town, the mayor's funeral is going on.
-- Lasky approaches the bankers, and blackmails Stoole about the Love Affair.
-- Sartana comes to town, plays cards, is accused of cheating, and shoots everybody down (except Lasky).
-- The next day, Sartana is being chased by members of Lasky's gang, but he leads them into the place where Lasky massacred all of his other men.  Naturally, the gang is upset, and they turn on Lasky, but Lasky manages to lead them into a house rigged with dynamite
-- Sartana takes the coffin-maker to come get a haircut with him, and tells a story about the greedy man and the other man.  Lasky stays calm about this story, until Sartana takes out Moreno's watch and starts playing the tune, which strikes fear into Lasky.
-- Lasky orders Morgan to go kill Sartana.
-- When Lasky is about to kill Sartana, he says "The story you told in the barber shop.  It ends right now."  This statement could raise question, but in my theory I say that Lasky is the greedy man, Sartana was making a threat to his life, and the "ending right now" means that the story will end prematurely. Lasky won't die.
-- After Morgan fails, Lasky and his gang chase after Sartana again! (how many men does this dude have)
-- Sartana manages to kill all the gang, and scares off lasky by playing Moreno's watch tune.
-- Lasky tells hallman that "Sartana knows everything." Sartana returns the crate full of rocks to Hallman's front door, and puts his signature on it by playing Moreno's watch tune off in the distance, thus proving that he does, indeed, "know everything."
-- When Jeff Stoole returns home, the mayor's widow is waiting for him, saying she's dying that they've had to go so long without seeing each other (man, what a pimp).  It seems to me he had seduced the mayor's wife a long time ago to convince her to kill her husband and use the coffin as a transport of the gold.  He probably lied to her and said he was going to run off with just him, her, and the gold in the end (when it seems to me every character just wants all the gold to themself)
-- Sartana takes the girl into his room at the saloon, and catches Lasky's eye on the way, knowing Lasky will send more men to kill him.  When they come, Sartana is ready and waiting.
-- The girl reveals some information in the room, but nothing that we don't already know. Just that Hallman's wife is spending nights with Stoole.  She also says that the watch tune was sung by Tampico, which would explain why Moreno chose that particular song for his watch.
-- Sartana goes to Tampico's ranch and leaves the watch outside, to tell Tampico that Moreno is certainly dead, he didn't double-cross.
-- Stoole tells Lasky that the gold is "in the cemetery, in the mayor's casket." And it appears that that is TRULY what he thinks (only Hallman, at this point, knows that the gold is actually hidden in the NEW casket).
-- Tampico beats and interrogates Lasky, and finds out the location of the gold (at least he finds out where LASKY thinks it is).
-- Sartana arrives at Tampico's ranch, and after a long gunfight, he and Lasky seem to "team up."
-- Lasky tells Stoole that Tampico is going to go try and get the gold, and that Stoole better try to get there first.
-- Stoole gets their first, but Tampico arrives shortly after, killing Stoole and digging up the casket.
-- Lasky is ready with his rifle to kill Tampico and his men, but Sartana deters him, saying it is "too soon."
-- Lasky and Sartana massacre Tampico's men back at the ranch, when they're about to open the casket, but they find it just has some more damn rocks.  He goes a little crazy and shoots Sartana, but Sartana survives.
-- Hallman reveals to Evelyn that "tampico now has the gold, you may go to him now" even though he knows this is a lie, because he stashed the gold elsewhere.  After his wife seduces him enough, he does reveal where the true location of the gold is, to which Evelyn says, "You're the cleverest of them all!" and talks about his youth at west point before she shoots him.
-- Evelyn wants to go get the gold, but runs into lasky, assures to him that they should start a "new life" with the gold, "the life she'd always dreamt of."
-- Once Evelyn leads Lasky to the gold, Lasky kills Evelyn.
-- Sartana shows up, and has a duel with Lasky, but Sartana wins. Lasky's last words: "I was right! You are the g-..."
-- Sartana takes all the gold.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 11, 2007, 09:49:08 AM

Quote from Banjo:
Maybe I'm not fully understanding what the papers were for.  I assumed that the papers were intended for the people who had money invested in the bank, so that in the event that their money was lost or (in this case) stolen, they could have their money back.  I thought that was why Hallman and Stoole wanted the papers, so that nobody could take their claim to the bank to get their money back.

But, you're probably right, they might not have hired Lasky.  After all, when Lasky comes in to collect the money from Stoole, Hallman has no idea Lasky is in on anything (to which he sarcastically comments, "I didn't know you have another partner!" [remember, I think Hallman knows of the love affair]).  But how do the insurance papers aid in the blackmail? ???
I'm gonna try and watch Sartana later today but i think that maybe Lasky and Morgan were trying to ascertain exact details of the insurance for the transportation of the gold so Lasky knows exactly what to say to Stoole/Hallman to prove he can stitch them up for fraud/robbery.
Details of the bank account holders deposits would be held by the bank as well as the account holders themselves of course.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Silenzio on March 11, 2007, 09:54:18 AM
I'm gonna try and watch Sartana later today but i think that maybe Lasky and Morgan were trying to ascertain exact details of the insurance for the transportation of the gold so Lasky knows exactly what to say to Stoole/Hallman to prove he can stitch them up for fraud/robbery.
Details of the bank account holders deposits would be held by the bank as well as the account holders themselves of course.

That makes sense why Lasky would want the papers, but Sartana is the one who ends up with the papers, all the members of Lasky's gang who see the papers get killed.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 11, 2007, 10:06:47 AM
That makes sense why Lasky would want the papers, but Sartana is the one who ends up with the papers, all the members of Lasky's gang who see the papers get killed.
Lasky apparently doesn't want to share the takings with anyone including Evelyn and i suspect he would've killed Morgan if Sartana hadn't have done the job first.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Silenzio on March 11, 2007, 10:21:00 AM
Lasky apparently doesn't want to share the takings with anyone including Evelyn and i suspect he would've killed Morgan if Sartana hadn't have done the job first.


True.

So he wanted the papers so that he could find out details of the shipment and blackmail the bankers.  But, he never sees the papers.  His men retrieve the papers, and Sartana pops up, to which that one guy says the famous last words, "You look just like a scarecrow." And Sartana kills them all and takes the papers. Morgan is way up on the mountain, he can't do anything but shoot (and miss) Sartana.  This means Sartana makes off with the papers, and Morgan nor Lasky nor anyone they're associated with has seen the papers (at least no one who's alive).  Does this mean Lasky was going to use the papers for some blackmail, but couldn't, so he just bluffed and use the whole "love affair" thing for leverage as well? 

But, this actually explains more, as well.  If sartana found the papers and was able to find out details of the gold shipment, he would've been able to figure out that there was probably a robbery going down if these people were so bent on getting the papers, and he would've tailed the route of the stage after a while.  This explains why he was there to find the massacred stagecoach with El Moreno's men!


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 11, 2007, 10:43:42 AM
Does this mean Lasky was going to use the papers for some blackmail, but couldn't, so he just bluffed and use the whole "love affair" thing for leverage as well? 
Holman and Stoole would've been aware of the murder of the insurance agent so they'd have no reason to disbelieve Lasky had the letter.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Silenzio on March 11, 2007, 10:57:05 AM
Holman and Stoole would've been aware of the murder of the insurance agent so they'd have no reason to disbelieve Lasky had the letter.


I see.


All this chatting makes me want to watch the movie again.


This is the only movie that's ever given me the urge to watch it three days in a row.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 11, 2007, 11:36:07 AM
All this chatting makes me want to watch the movie again.
Me too!
Good idea typing out the plot breakdown which i'll be printing out also O0


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Silenzio on March 11, 2007, 01:20:15 PM
Watch out, my memory betrayed me for a little bit on the breakdown. Some stuff is backwards.  I'll modify accordingly.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 11, 2007, 07:06:54 PM
Silenzio,the Moreno as the "another man" (and Lasky as the greedy one)theory is an attractive one but for various reasons i don't buy it.
In  Sartana's barbershop speech he describes"a band of Mexicans that attacked a stagecoach and were about to divide the gold when another man(ie Lasky) and his band attacked them and killed every one of them(which would include Moreno of course)"
"Who was it who told you?" says the coffin maker
"Another man(ie someone other than Lasky) who wanted 50% of the cargo.But the man was  too greedy.He wanted it for himself"replies Sartana.
"How did he wind up in the end?"says the coffin maker.
"The greedy one-lets say he got hauled away by a GRAVE DIGGER" replies Sartana.

Therefore clearly Lasky isn't the "greedy one".Also if Moreno had been Laskys partner then surely Moreno would've been the first guy Lasky gunned down (in case Moreno got away)in the stagecoach massacre.Lasky first hears the pocket watch(which Sartana only picks up at random from Morenos body because he hears the chimes) at Green Wells after gunning down his own men and for him to know that someone was using the watch as a signal that his every move was being watched woud be enough to cause the disorientation that Lasky was clearly suffering to an increased degree every time he heard the tune.Anyway Lasky clearly associates the watch with Sartana rather than anyone else and at one point even refers to Sartana as the "one with the musical watch that knows everything."
  The Sartana as a ghost is an interesting one and at one point both Sartana and the coffin maker joke that Sartana's "got a smell of dead bodies".Also Lasky believed he had shot Sartana dead at Tampico's and when Sartana reappeared to Lasky for the final confrontation,Laskys immediate reaction of flailing his arms while muttering "go away,go away" repeatedly which would be the reaction of someone who believes they are seeing a ghost.And to confirm Lasky's fear,the now very tangible Sartana  whilst putting a gun to Laskys head says"Just like in the cemetery.I wasn't a ghost then and i'm not now"
 The dying Lasky says"i was right,you are the g..." but i think he was actually going to say THE GRAVEDIGGER rather than ghost which would tie in with Sartana's barbershop speech.And i'm certain that Sartana is the "gravedigger "who killed the "greedy one".In fact the alternate title to the first Sartana sequel(I Am Sartana Your Angel Of Death) is Sartana The Gravedigger. ;)
   Another thing that sheds some light on the Sartana plot is that on the dvd special feature interview Garko says that "he got the producer to choose a subject not based on vengeance" and insisted on this storyline "about a character who is not overly sentimental,a smart character who puts himself between 2 rival groups to get what he can out of it"
  So no mention from Garko of avenging angels or ghosts then!!

I only watched the relevant bits to Moreno/ghosts today Silenzio so i need to get back to the movie for the rest of your reconstruction but any blackmail to do with the"love affair"?I don't think so!!


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on March 12, 2007, 09:48:02 AM
I just noticed in the scene where Sartana is confronted by the four gamblers (really three but I guess one had a buddy with him) he cleaned out in the saloon that he has his 5 bullet cylinder placed in his pepperbox gun.

If Lasky would have participated in the showdown as a "fifth man" ("what If I was the fifth?") he would have been gunned down by Sartana as well.


Then the movie would be over.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on March 12, 2007, 09:54:00 AM

-- Lasky hears the watch tune up in the hills, and he is obviously extremely agitated (but why would he be if he didn't have some relationship with MORENO!)
-


simple.


because he knows somebody is witnessing his crime thus indangering his plan.

When Sartana reveals himself to be "the man with the musical watch" at the Barbershop, Lasky is pissed scared because he knows Sartana can turn him into the authorities anytime he wishes.


During the gunfight at the dunes Lasky runs off when hearing the watch chime coming from behind him because he thinks Sartana has an accomplice there with him and can shoot him in the back.


That throws your Moreno theory right out the window (however attractive that theory may be, I don't buy it).



EDIT: sorry Banjo, I realized you sussed this  same topic on your last post. :(


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 12, 2007, 10:33:26 AM
Sorry Silenzio but i can't see any blackmail involved in the plot to do with Stool and Evelyns love affair.Theres no dialogue to support this,plus Holman is completely aware throughout about his wifes motives and that shes sleeping around out of her own greed.
Although Stool calls Sartana a " blackmailer just like Lasky" the $5000 Stool hands to Sartana is really"for the information"(and not blackmail) that Tampico is going out for the gold hidden in the cemetery.There is nothing else in the movie that implicates Sartana as a blackmailer.
One more word about the "other man" identity.I'll stick with the theory that its a past associate of Lasky who Sartana(The Gravedigger) "hauls away" after revealing details to Sartana of the delivery of the insurance letter and also the robbery of the gold(rocks).But  obviously this "greedy man" was already dead before the stagecoach massacres so Sartana completes the "barbershop" story from his first hand encounters with Lasky and Morgan.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Silenzio on March 12, 2007, 04:22:47 PM
Sorry Silenzio but i can't see any blackmail involved in the plot to do with Stool and Evelyns love affair.Theres no dialogue to support this,plus Holman is completely aware throughout about his wifes motives and that shes sleeping around out of her own greed.
Although Stool calls Sartana a " blackmailer just like Lasky" the $5000 Stool hands to Sartana is really"for the information"(and not blackmail) that Tampico is going out for the gold hidden in the cemetery.There is nothing else in the movie that implicates Sartana as a blackmailer.

Yes, Hallman is aware of Evelyn's sleeping around, but Stoole isn't aware that Hallman is aware.  If he was blackmailing about the robbery he would've also been blackmailng Hallman for as much as he could as well.  He's able to fork money out of Stoole because Stoole thinks the love affair is a secret.  Whereas we know Hallman is unaware of Lasky by the time Lasky comes into the room to blackmail, because he says "Stoole, I didn't know you have another partner."  I figure that had SOMETHING to do with the blackmail.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on March 12, 2007, 04:24:26 PM
Did you catch Lasky's "look" towards Evelyn during that scene?

She stays in character though as she gives a disapproving glare.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Silenzio on March 12, 2007, 04:34:59 PM
Silenzio,the Moreno as the "another man" (and Lasky as the greedy one)theory is an attractive one but for various reasons i don't buy it.
In  Sartana's barbershop speech he describes"a band of Mexicans that attacked a stagecoach and were about to divide the gold when another man(ie Lasky) and his band attacked them and killed every one of them(which would include Moreno of course)"
"Who was it who told you?" says the coffin maker
"Another man(ie someone other than Lasky) who wanted 50% of the cargo.But the man was  too greedy.He wanted it for himself"replies Sartana.
"How did he wind up in the end?"says the coffin maker.
"The greedy one-lets say he got hauled away by a GRAVE DIGGER" replies Sartana.

Therefore clearly Lasky isn't the "greedy one".Also if Moreno had been Laskys partner then surely Moreno would've been the first guy Lasky gunned down (in case Moreno got away)in the stagecoach massacre.Lasky first hears the pocket watch(which Sartana only picks up at random from Morenos body because he hears the chimes) at Green Wells after gunning down his own men and for him to know that someone was using the watch as a signal that his every move was being watched woud be enough to cause the disorientation that Lasky was clearly suffering to an increased degree every time he heard the tune.Anyway Lasky clearly associates the watch with Sartana rather than anyone else and at one point even refers to Sartana as the "one with the musical watch that knows everything."
  The Sartana as a ghost is an interesting one and at one point both Sartana and the coffin maker joke that Sartana's "got a smell of dead bodies".Also Lasky believed he had shot Sartana dead at Tampico's and when Sartana reappeared to Lasky for the final confrontation,Laskys immediate reaction of flailing his arms while muttering "go away,go away" repeatedly which would be the reaction of someone who believes they are seeing a ghost.And to confirm Lasky's fear,the now very tangible Sartana  whilst putting a gun to Laskys head says"Just like in the cemetery.I wasn't a ghost then and i'm not now"
 The dying Lasky says"i was right,you are the g..." but i think he was actually going to say THE GRAVEDIGGER rather than ghost which would tie in with Sartana's barbershop speech.And i'm certain that Sartana is the "gravedigger "who killed the "greedy one".In fact the alternate title to the first Sartana sequel(I Am Sartana Your Angel Of Death) is Sartana The Gravedigger. ;)
   Another thing that sheds some light on the Sartana plot is that on the dvd special feature interview Garko says that "he got the producer to choose a subject not based on vengeance" and insisted on this storyline "about a character who is not overly sentimental,a smart character who puts himself between 2 rival groups to get what he can out of it"
  So no mention from Garko of avenging angels or ghosts then!!

I only watched the relevant bits to Moreno/ghosts today Silenzio so i need to get back to the movie for the rest of your reconstruction but any blackmail to do with the"love affair"?I don't think so!!

I see my Moreno theory is de-bunked.   :-\

However, I think they would at least give some glue in the film about the story, right now I think it's relying a bit too much on assumption.  Let me get straight what you're saying. A) Sartana is the man who killed the greedy man. B) Sartana was told by the man who wanted 50%. Well, obviously Lasky didn't tell him, so does that mean that Lasky isn't either of the two men?


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 12, 2007, 04:47:25 PM
  If he was blackmailing about the robbery he would've also been blackmailng Hallman for as much as he could as well. 
Lasky is blackmailing both Stool and Holman together regarding the gold with obviously Stool being the guy handing out the money to Lasky.In that particular scene there is no way the blackmail has anything to do with a love affair with 4 people being present in the same room.It seems to be very common knowledge in that town about Holman being a regular visitor to the whorehouse that i doubt that anyone would blink an eyelid at any such unfaithfullness.The only thing the perpetrators are really interested in is the gold.
    The idea of love affair blackmail is just too trivial in my opinion.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 12, 2007, 05:01:50 PM
I see my Moreno theory is de-bunked.   :-\

However, I think they would at least give some glue in the film about the story, right now I think it's relying a bit too much on assumption.  Let me get straight what you're saying. A) Sartana is the man who killed the greedy man. B) Sartana was told by the man who wanted 50%. Well, obviously Lasky didn't tell him, so does that mean that Lasky isn't either of the two men?
Yes in Sartanas speech the "another man" with his band who massacred the band of Mexicans is quite clearly a description of the scene we saw where Lasky & co kills Moreno,Roy etc to gain the casket of rocks.Lasky is this "another man".
Dusty then asks Sartana who told him this information.Sartana says it was another "another man" -the greedy one who wanted more than 50% but who we don't see at all in the movie because Sartana "the gravedigger" has killed him for the information prior to the events seen in the movie.
Silenzio,do you agree that Lasky was trying to say "i was right,you are the gravedigger" rather than "ghost"?


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on March 12, 2007, 05:06:03 PM

Silenzio,do you agree that Lasky was trying to say "i was right,you are the gravedigger" rather than "ghost"?


Well I just viewed it and Lasky clearly says "You are the G...".

If "gravedigger" was the word he was about to utter the g would have a "GRRR" sound.


But your theory makes sense. Lasky is referring to the story Sartana tells Dusty at the Barbershop.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Silenzio on March 12, 2007, 05:15:10 PM

Well I just viewed it and Lasky clearly says "You are the G...".

If "gravedigger" was the word he was about to utter the g would have a "GRRR" sound.


But your theory makes sense. Lasky is referring to the story Sartana tells Dusty at the Barbershop.

Yes, it was probably a minor goof and they overlooked the fact that people wouldn't say a "guh" sound if they were about to say gravedigger.

I like the gravedigger theory.

Quote
Dusty then asks Sartana who told him this information.Sartana says it was another "another man" -the greedy one who wanted more than 50% but who we don't see at all in the movie because Sartana "the gravedigger" has killed him for the information prior to the events seen in the movie

I guess I misinterpreted Sartana's speech, I thought he was saying he was told by the man who wanted 50% (which is Lasky) but apparently he was told by the man who was greedy.



Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 12, 2007, 05:18:42 PM
If "gravedigger" was the word he was about to utter the g would have a "GRRR" sound.
A "G...." sound is all Lasky could manage but yes it makes more sense than "the ghost" .Garko makes it quite clear that the Sartana character is heavily influenced by Eastwoods Joe in FOD so we must conclude that Sartana most definately wasn't a ghost which he reassures Lasky during that last scene.
 
Plus of course Carmineos follow-up to the original is titled Sartana The Gravedigger.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 12, 2007, 05:23:41 PM
Yes, it was probably a minor goof and they overlooked the fact that people wouldn't say a "guh" sound if they were about to say gravedigger.

I like the gravedigger theory.

I guess I misinterpreted Sartana's speech, I thought he was saying he was told by the man who wanted 50% (which is Lasky) but apparently he was told by the man who was greedy.


Sorry this crossed with my last post.

Yes i was careful to write down Sartana's whole barbershop speech to establish there were in fact two "another men" in that story.

Looks like we're all agreed on the gravedigger theory then. O0

 


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Silenzio on March 12, 2007, 05:32:42 PM
another thing we can agree on, Sartana uses the phrase "another man" too much when he tells stories.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 12, 2007, 06:01:43 PM
another thing we can agree on, Sartana uses the phrase "another man" too much when he tells stories.
I think so too. ;)

Are there any other ambiguities we need to work on?(I really don't buy into any love affair blackmail.)

I was certain that Lasky/Morgan weren't hired by Stool/Holman(and were just trying to blackmail them as well as steal the gold) as suggested in the dvd sleeve notes but while having another look at Sartana today the bankers mention something like "it would've been foolish to leave the gold in the hands of Tampico and his men,just like it would've been to leave it with Lasky and his men" which gave me cause to doubt my own theory but i guess this didn't necessarily mean Lasky/Morgan were in the bankers employ.Maybe the bankers had considered hiring Lasky but decided Tampico was a safer bet.
  For what its worth Thomas Weissers Sartana write up appears to concur with my theory stating that "a gold shipment is robbed by snuff-sniffing Lasky" and that "Lasky & his sidekick Morgan decide to blackmail the original gold thieves".


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Silenzio on March 12, 2007, 06:08:13 PM
I think so too. ;)

Are there any other ambiguities we need to work on?(I really don't buy into any love affair blackmail.)

I was certain that Lasky/Morgan weren't hired by Stool/Holman(and were just trying to blackmail them as well as steal the gold) as suggested in the dvd sleeve notes but while having another look at Sartana today the bankers mention something like "it would've been foolish to leave the gold in the hands of Tampico and his men,just like it would've been to leave it with Lasky and his men" which gave me cause to doubt my own theory but i guess this didn't necessarily mean Lasky/Morgan were in the bankers employ.Maybe the bankers had considered hiring Lasky but decided Tampico was a safer bet.
  For what its worth Thomas Weissers Sartana write up appears to concur with my theory stating that "a gold shipment is robbed by snuff-sniffing Lasky" and that "Lasky & his sidekick Morgan decide to blackmail the original gold thieves".

Everything is cleared up for me now, except I will feel kind of empty inside with just having to assume that the "other men" sartana talks about are just people we never see.  :(





Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 12, 2007, 06:13:01 PM
Everything is cleared up for me now, except I will feel kind of empty inside with just having to assume that the "other men" sartana talks about are just people we never see.  :(
Just think of it similar situation to the man Indio describes,but who we never see, who made the drinks cabinet disguised as the El Paso safe in FAFDM. ;)



 


 


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Silenzio on March 12, 2007, 06:15:26 PM
Just think of it similar situation to the man Indio describes,but who we never see, who made the drinks cabinet disguised as the El Paso safe in FAFDM. ;)



 


 

Yeah, I guess I can.  :)  Except I assumed that the guy Indio shoots the moment he is freed is that man.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on March 12, 2007, 06:16:49 PM
Yeah, I guess I can.  :)  Except I assumed that the guy Indio shoots the moment he is freed is that man.


I've always thought he was the carpenter as well. He has the little model of the cabinet.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 12, 2007, 06:23:22 PM
he is an omnipresent character in the film.  His watch is always with Sartana, and Tampico is always talking about Moreno. 
I totally agree with this omnipresence and it is very surprising that (as well as the presense of the pocket watch)such a relatively minor player should be given so many mentions in the movie and i keep wandering if i've missed something.
But i find it impossible to fit Moreno into Sartanas story other than just being one of the "band of Mexicans" that are killed by the "another man and his band".And obviously Moreno can't be the "greedy man" because Lasky and co murdered him rather than him being "hauled away by the gravedigger".


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on March 12, 2007, 06:25:24 PM

I've always thought he was the carpenter as well. He has the little model of the cabinet.
A very bad example then :-[

But surely theres a good one somewhere! ;)


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Banjo on May 26, 2007, 05:46:12 AM
Silenzio's review:-

I have to say, that with a repeat viewing, I thought this movie was awesome and a classic.  The complicated plot is one of the things that sets it aside from other spaghettis, and makes it so much more rewarding the second time around.  This was my first Garko spaghetti and he left a good, good impression.  He plays Sartana, a gunslinger who's trying to muscle in on an extremely complicated gold robbery that went down recently.  He carries with him a mythic and other-worldly aura.  In fact, some are of the opinion (myself included) that he is actually some kind of avenging phantom.  While I was watching, this having heard so much about this larger-than-life character, and how much he had been built up, I was not disappointed.  Garko's Sartana is intriguing, he's interesting to watch, he's interesting to look at, and he even smiles from time to time in this movie.  One of the things that makes him so strange is the fact that he seems to be completely asexual.  At more than one point in the film, a woman is throwing herself at Sartana, and he shows no desires or anything, he keeps his mind completely on the gold and anything he would need to do get the gold or get Lasky, the villain (played by William Berger).  This is reinforced by the fact that he wears a huge black piece of jewelry on the finger where your wedding ring is supposed to be, like there's a big hole there, something empty. 

But enough about Sartana himself, let's talk about the movie.  This one wasn't shot in Almeria, I hear.  And it shows.  The locations look very distinct from other spaghettis.  They're not bad, but they're distinct.  The direction is pretty darn good, but not as good as it came be in Parolini's later efforts like Sabata.  Garko, Berger, and Sancho are all good, but most other supporting actors turn in a pretty wooden performance. With the exception of Kinski, that is.  I noticed that whoever dubbed Kinski had a much deeper voice than the people that usually dub him, and I dug it.  This was very important to me, because it was also my first Sancho western.  Sancho gets a great introduction in this movie.  It cuts to him strolling down the western streets in mid close-up while the music abruptly changes to this really cool guitar part.  All the music in this movie was pretty nice, but that piece was my favorite! It was just so cool.



Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Rojo Ramone on September 01, 2007, 11:56:08 AM
I bought the Wild East DVD, and one thing that I don't think has been brought up is the quality of the widescreen picture~it's all squished.
 Anyways, I loved everything about this movie~from the musical score to the locations.
But, the plot was a little too complicated for just one viewing.



Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Silenzio on September 01, 2007, 11:59:34 AM
Widscreen all squished?

Please elaborate.


It's presented in its OAR (i'm pretty sure).


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: The Firecracker on September 01, 2007, 12:08:43 PM


It's presented in its OAR (i'm pretty sure).

Yeah this has me stumped as well.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Sundance on September 01, 2007, 02:56:36 PM
Yeah, the disc has a problem. I guess you could say it's non-anamorphic 1.85:1 which has an anamorphic flag (that shouldn't be there) on the disc so when you watch it with widescreen TV, the image is automatically stretched horizontally but not vertically. The problem is easily "fixed" by just using the normal zoom options (I think all widescreens tvs would have at least some sort of zoom) to play the disc like you would play a normal non-anamorphic widescreen disc.

I just don't understand why Firecracker and Silenzio hasn't had any problems with it? I thought it doesn't display properly with 4:3 TVs either, unless you incorrectly setup your player so that it thinks your TV is 16:9 (which is why when Wild East screwed up again with Gentleman Killer, they added a sticker to the box informing that the player needs to be in 16:9 mode [the advice can't be meant for widescreen TV owners since their player is in 16:9 anyways and will display the disc incorrectly because of that).


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Rojo Ramone on September 01, 2007, 03:02:55 PM
I was just about to post, but Sundance beat me with a better explanation.
btw`I don't have a widescreen tv yet.
Thanks Sundance.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Silenzio on September 01, 2007, 03:04:50 PM
I get you on the first paragraph, sundance, but I haven't had any problems on my 4:3 television.  It looks fine and is 1.85:1.


Title: Re: Sartana(1968):review and plot reconstruction
Post by: Rojo Ramone on September 02, 2007, 12:36:37 AM
I set my dvd player fron 4:3 Letterbox to 16:9 in the tv display set up section and the film now plays fine~ with no information loss at the sides O0 
Thanks again for the tip Sundance.