Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => A Fistful of Dollars => Topic started by: jouissance on April 01, 2003, 05:58:06 PM



Title: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: jouissance on April 01, 2003, 05:58:06 PM
Fellow Brethern,

First, lets be honest, Leone totally copied YOJIMBO.

But second, Kurosawa did his own copying from an American story (according to Something to do with death).

Third and most importantly, Leone's FFOD is by far superior...

Case in point:
1. Leone's introduction of Marisol from the beginning and Clint's building relationship with her is by far more powerful that Kurosawa's - It also produces mystery and tension throughout the first act and a good part of the second act - lastly, Ramon's desire to have Marisol returned is more strongly established than the Kurosawa's version, created a more intense explosion for the finally.

2. The idea that these Lord's would allow the Yojimbo to go back and forth and play them such fools is silly and maybe that's funny to the Japanese but I found it tiresome. Leone's who clock and dagger of the anti-hero made it so much better because we all know the dude is going to pay for it.

3. Leone's pacing is right on and in YOJIMBO, I found the pacing boring... and this is not to say Leone has a face paced film because he doesn't.

Man, I love Leone... I wish he could have made a few more films.


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: cigar joe on April 01, 2003, 09:36:57 PM
Don't forget that Leone had Morricone music also, I don't recall if Yohimbo had any.


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: visitor on April 02, 2003, 03:09:32 AM
Don't forget that Leone had Morricone music also, I don't recall if Yohimbo had any.
YOJIMBO had an excellent score by Masaru Sato. The recently released full score on cd runs nearly 55 mins in length.  It was one of the most highly sought after lps for years, usually fetching well over $100 for used copies.
The placement of some of Morricone's music was identical to the original.


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: Harmonica on April 02, 2003, 10:48:03 AM
I think that they are both great movies...


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: Jon on April 03, 2003, 09:02:34 AM
I also think  both films are good-I don,t think Leone,s version is particularly better though although it does have more action.But I think Kurosawa is also a great director-Yojimbo may be one of his weaker films.

The same plot was used again for Last Man Standing,which isn,t bad.


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: maxus2 on April 14, 2003, 05:27:20 AM
 
Good question.

Easy answer for me...... now, but for the longest time I couldn't make up my mind.

I love both
I only saw "Yojimbo" fairy recently ( within the last 4-5 years or so ) for the 1st time. However when I finally tracked down the video of "A Fistful of Dollars" about 2 years ago, it was no contest.
For me, its Fistful by a mile, or a kilometer if you prefer.

Sure its are full of scenes lifted ( & since its the same plot/script, why wouldn't there be ) from Yojimbo but not quite as many as I 1st thought. & those that are lifted, are done in the daringly different 'Leone style". Big difference difference if you ask me. There is also enough new & reworked material that the film stands on its own.

Example:

Yojimbo": the dog carrying a hand
AFOD": the Dead rider propped up on a horse

The final showdown the same & yet daringly different.
Often when a scene was seemingly the same, there is something new added or in the case of Joe's escape from the Rojos, they left out the part from "Yojimbo" where they get one of the bad guys to help carry the coffin which IMO actually works better.

The Grave yard scene with the 2 dead soldiers was new. In Yojimbo ( if I recall correctly, they only "spoke" of some officials having been murdered )

And thats just a few.

There's even ( again IMO ) a slight nod to "Yojimbo" with Clint throwing a machete through someone instead of shooting him when rescuing Maisol.( yes, I know he was out of bullets )

There is ( & this is JMO ) much more of Clint Eastwood in "AFOD" than in the other 2. I don't just mean more screen time, but more actual creative input from him. I read somewhere that he convicted Leone to throw out not only a lot of dialog but some character background as well, to keep the character as mysterious as possible. The ending/showdown ( I won't give it away for any who may not have have seen it ) has Clint's finger prints all over it in its almost super natural twist. Something that is Clint has used on other occasions in his films.

People give lot of lip service these days about such-in-such new film being ground breaking & so on ( don't know about anyone else, but I haven't seen too many around lately ) but "AFOD" was one of the most ground breaking films of all time.

Kurosawa's artistry & genius remain unsurpassed, but for at least "the Dollars Trilogy, Leone was as great as anyone.

IMO "A Fistful of Dollars" is perhaps the most unique western ever made.


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: Walter on September 25, 2003, 11:46:19 AM
I think that they are both great movies...

Both are great movies, that is very true. One is a great samurai movie, with a charismatic lead and so much disrespect towards the earlier films of the genre, it represented a renewal of the genre itself.

The other is a great western movie, with a charismatic lead and so much disrespect towards the earlier films of the genre, it represented a renewal of the genre itself.

But actually, the whole thing started with a little novel by Dashiel Hammett, called "Red Harvest".

A great mystery and suspense novel, with a charismatic....

 


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: visitor on September 25, 2003, 02:13:41 PM
true-but Kurosawa took the Hammett story and made it his own-while Leone took the Kikushima/Kurosawa screenplay and lost the lawsuit :'(


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: Walter on September 25, 2003, 05:07:09 PM
true-but Kurosawa took the Hammett story and made it his own-while Leone took the Kikushima/Kurosawa screenplay and lost the lawsuit :'(

Can't disagree with you.

But remakes aren't always bad. While we're discussing Hammett - the Bogart version of The Maltese Falcon was actually the third film based upon the book. Still, Leone should have owned up to his little loan in beforehand. That would have made it an honest remake, not the rip-off it is. A very fine rip-off, though.


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: aaronson on September 26, 2003, 01:52:47 AM
Fellow Brethern,



But second, Kurosawa did his own copying from an American story (according to Something to do with death).


Kurosawa was inspired by "the Red Harvest " a Dashiell Hammet novel who was inspired by "Arlequin serviteur de deux maitres" of Goldoni ,an Italian author (18th century ?) . Leone said that our culture is a worldwide one and people from all countries share same themas.


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: Nobody on May 02, 2004, 07:30:24 AM
As a huge fan of both Kurosawa and Leone (I consider these to be among the most gifted filmmakers ever), this is a tough question and I can't decide. One thing is certain, both directors has made films superior to these.

They remade Yojimbo in Iceland as well, as a viking film. Well worth the search. The Van Damme version was awful though, but worth checking out for curiosity reasons alone. It has several titles: "Inferno", "Desert Heat", and "Coyote Moon".


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: cigar joe on May 02, 2004, 07:58:34 AM
Don't forget "Last Man Standing."


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: Nobody on May 02, 2004, 08:07:33 AM
It was already mentioned, so I didn't. It's a pretty entertaining film, with a great Christopher Walken performance, and a cool Ry Cooder score. Walter Hill can make pretty decent westerns and action films. He should forever stay away from comedy though. "Brewster's Millions" was pretty awful.


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: DJIMBO on May 03, 2004, 03:44:50 AM
i know this is sacrilege considering leone is my favourite director, but in my opinion Yojimbo is better.

Leone's style has yet to fully develop and he is copying kurosawa quite a lot. FFOD is a good film and has arguably more accomplished music, but Yojimbo has a great pounding style to it and toshiro mifune is arguably better than clint. i think the difference is that fistful is a very good film but Yojimbo is a great film. Leone would surpass fistful with every subsequent film he made (with exception of DYS)

I await the riposte from die-hard fistful fans...


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: The Smoker on May 03, 2004, 08:55:58 AM
What you won't be expecting is riposte from Giu La Testa (Duck You Sucker) fans!!!!   ;) which i think is better than FOD.

No i like Yojimbo better than Fistful Of Dollars.
Just for the charactor/gang stucture in the town is alot more interesting. The scenes Between Mifune's Sanjuro & Tono's Bar Keeper are pure gold. Tatsuya Nakadai gunslinging Unosuke 'rabbit'..
alot in more key with Red Harvest than FOD.
Anyways Leone wouldnt have his cynical unkept anti-hero if it wasn't for Sanjuro Kuwabatake. This is something which he would use long after a script..

but FOD thou.
'Hombre with the sign, leaving town'..
'The Suit of Armour'
Arrrh  :-\  its hard to choose.. hard choose


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: Bill Carson on May 03, 2004, 12:44:06 PM
 8)  hola JON.   LAST MAN STANDING was awful. Walter Hill lost his touch YEARS ago. remaking the ol' SERVANT OF TWO MASTERS plot didn't help none.


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: Toerag on May 03, 2004, 06:53:17 PM
I enjoy both films for different reasons, so I prefer to stay away from "which is the better movie?" arguments.  I don't think either movie is the best work of the respective director, but they are both fun to watch; IMO Yojimbo has a bit more "style" to it, probably due to Mifune's acting; I suppose that's just personal preference (although to be honest, I haven't seen "Fistful" for a while).

Did Leone copy Yojimbo?  Yes.  Is it a bad thing?  Not at all.  All artists, at some point, build on what has been done before, whether it's an homage or just to explore an idea in a different way. The great ones borrow and put their own vision/style on it, something that Leone definitely did.  

There is one scene in FFOD that I prefer over the comparable scene in Yojimbo: After the protagonist has been beaten up and locked in the storeroom, I always thought Eastwood's escape was more realistic and satisfying.  In Yojimbo, Mifune hides in a box, and the guards think he's escaped (even though he's half dead, the door was locked, and the bars are still on the window).  I always feel like yelling out, "He's hiding in the box, you fool".

Alternatively, I always preferred the ending to Yojimbo. The "gun vs. sword" battle is done brilliantly; the way Mifune moves is just amazing. Also, I think there is more subtext in Yojimbo.  The use of the "western revolver" story element, and the implication that it makes the traditional Samurai weapons and culture obsolete.  Yet, Mifune walks away triumphant at the end demonstrating that skill counts for something.

And, how Mifune manages to cut the rope around the bartender... it astounds me every time.

Of course, to top everything, Yojimbo's crying brat isn't nearly as annoying as the one in FFOD.

I don't know if it's been mentioned on this board, but there is a "modernized" trailer for Yojimbo here: http://www.maximument.com/yojimbo.html

Anyway, I've rambled long enough for my first post.


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: redyred on May 04, 2004, 05:06:19 AM
What do you guys think of Sanjuro (a lesser known Kurosawa with the same charcter as Yojimbo)? I actually prefer it. Especially the ending which, as a friend of mine pointed out, is like the Hegelian synthesis of Leone showdowns and battle scenes from the Lone Wolf and Cub series, even though it predates both of them.


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: Toerag on May 04, 2004, 12:21:57 PM
What do you guys think of Sanjuro (a lesser known Kurosawa with the same charcter as Yojimbo)? I actually prefer it. Especially the ending which, as a friend of mine pointed out, is like the Hegelian synthesis of Leone showdowns and battle scenes from the Lone Wolf and Cub series, even though it predates both of them.

I've only seen Sanjuro once, but I think the end, stylistically at least,  is remisicent of the Harmonica/Frank standoff at the end of OUATITW.  Only, there's a LOT more blood in the Sanjuro fight; I sometimes think the effects guy over did it a bit.

I think the western movie "stand-off" owes a lot to Kurosawa (or Japanese film).  I'm not an expert on the American west, but as I understand it, the concept of two gunslingers facing each other, staring each other down, and then drawing is largely a myth; there wasn't that much "fair play" involved.  Whereas, the formal duels between Samurai were very stylistic.  Perhaps someone can correct my thinking on that point.

There's a strong comedic element running through Sanjuro that doesn't link up to anything in Leone's movies.  Leone's movies have comedy, but it's just a different sort.

I wonder how many of Kurosawa's films Leone saw.  

Good movie.  I'll have to get the Sanjuro DVD out tonight and watch it.


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: redyred on May 04, 2004, 03:08:24 PM
Only, there's a LOT more blood in the Sanjuro fight; I sometimes think the effects guy over did it a bit.

You probably wouldn't like the Lone Wolf and Cub films then - Sword of Vengeance, Babycart at the River Styx, Babycart to Hades etc. They have effects like that all the way through. Also the main influence on the final scenes of Kill Bill volume 1.


Title: Lone Wolf And Cub
Post by: The Smoker on May 04, 2004, 04:44:57 PM
Only, there's a LOT more blood in the Sanjuro fight; I sometimes think the effects guy over did it a bit.
I always saw it as to be a sobering shock, It does reinforce Sanjuro's point to the watching samurai at the end. That its just bushido bulls£$t. I don't think anybody had seen a arterial spray like that in Japanese film. First of its kind, and ofcourse thousands followed.

Lone Wolf And Cub has alot of spaghetti (Leone) stylings to them for a Chambara series.. extreme close ups of charactors faces. And its structure. Specially the Misumi Kenji's ones.
(http://mitglied.lycos.de/jtorrance/hpbimg/Okami4b.jpg)
(http://mitglied.lycos.de/jtorrance/hpbimg/Okami1b.jpg)
I think the influence swung both ways.. Leone & Spaghetti's took a dark frame of mind.. late 60s to 70s Chambara in return took a style.

Zatoichi 'The blind Swordsman' also had wide angle shots through the legs. charactors facing-off. Wouldnt be surpirsed Kenji wasnt reponsible for them.

Proberly why i love them so much. I see Leone in them


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: redyred on May 05, 2004, 03:54:37 AM
There's also a surprise Spaghetti style pistol fight at the end of Babycart to Hades (and a bit of a Django reference when the babycart turns in a Gatling gun).


Title: Re:Lone Wolf And Cub
Post by: Toerag on May 05, 2004, 12:04:39 PM
I always saw it as to be a sobering shock, It does reinforce Sanjuro's point to the watching samurai at the end. That its just bushido bulls£$t. I don't think anybody had seen a arterial spray like that in Japanese film. First of its kind, and ofcourse thousands followed.


It certainly is a sobering shock.  Like Leone's movies, there is nothing in Kurosawa's movies that he didn't want there (even the wind), so I'm sure that's the effect he was going for.

I'll have to see some of these other films, they sound interesting.


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: The Smoker on May 05, 2004, 02:11:51 PM
There's also a surprise Spaghetti style pistol fight at the end of Babycart to Hades (and a bit of a Django reference when the babycart turns in a Gatling gun).

The Incident with the Pistols...  is straight from the Kazuo comic books. Scene for scene. Man leaves his flintlock pistols on the shore line, save a supposidly drowning Diagoro. bad move  ;)


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: El Topo on May 08, 2004, 02:22:10 PM
(http://www.thelooniverse.com/movies/japan/kurosawa/Sanjuro/s03s.jpg)


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: The Smoker on May 08, 2004, 04:29:00 PM
Batten down the hatches.  ;D

Wonderful photo. El Topo


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: General Sibley on May 19, 2004, 11:46:07 AM
I just watched Yojimbo for the first time last night, fun movie.

First thing I noticed was that early (first scene?) Kurosawa established Mifune's character with a close up shot from low, framing his face against the sky.  

Leone LOVED that same shot, he may have "borrowed" it but he sure used it effectively.  One of my favorite shots Sergio shots is in GBU when AngelEyes dismounts at the Stevens hacienda, then Sergio pulls in for the same closeup of LVC against the sky while Morricone has a flamenco guitar strumming in the background followed by a haunting "oowaoowa-ooo".  Too f*cking cool, Kurosawa can't top that!

You can see Mifune's influence on Eastwood too I think.  Very cool, movements unrushed and calm - then big explosions of violence followed by more calm.

Soundtrack was surprisingly good, didn't expect that.  Pretty modern, I'm sure Morricone took note.

Mifune is great, but the supporting cast pales against FOD.  How can you possibly top the Rojo family?   In Yojimbo you've got Mifune, and then the rest of the cast vanishes.  I think Leone was much better at fleshing out all his characters.  Even the henchmen are interesting in FOD.

I'm obviously biased, but I think FOD is a much better entertainment.  I don't know if I could sit through Yojimbo a second time.


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: DJIMBO on May 20, 2004, 06:00:40 AM
i found yojimbo improves with time

i always thought fistful was better but having watched yojimbo a couple of times i think its better

mifune is arguably better than clint in yojimbo but theyre both the epitome of cool


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: General Sibley on May 20, 2004, 08:14:16 AM
Mifune is great, real old-school Hollywood star power.   In a way he's TOO good, the rest of the cast gets buried by his performance.    Clint was always balanced by a Ramon or a Baby Jesus or an Indio or a Mortimer or a Tuco or an AngelEyes in the trilogy movies.  \

You need a strong counterweight for your hero to play off against to build dramatic tension - he needs to be challenged.  The villains in Yojimbo are pretty lame and totally non-threatening.  Even the big guy with the hammer was a joke.  Joe/Manco/Blondie would have blasted the whole town away in the first scene, took Mifune two hours to get rid of those clowns.


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: mortimer on May 21, 2004, 07:33:44 PM
Mifune was a badass, but the big goon did knock the crap out of him. I think the movies are about a push and both are near the the top of their respective genre.


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: Nobody on July 23, 2004, 03:40:01 PM
I recently re-watched Miller's Crossing by the Coen Brothers. This film could also be called a Yojimbo remake in my opinion. The way Gabriel Byrne plays the gangs against each other. Then again, the outcome is quite different from Yojimbo and all its other remakes. But Miller's Crossing is definately inspired by the plot. In my opinion it's as good, if not better, than Yojimbo and FOD as well. But then again, opinions are like assholes, everybodys got one.


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: mortimer on July 29, 2004, 09:26:03 PM
Nice point on Millers Crossing. Definitely one of the Coen bros best work. Love the tommy gun scene accompanied by "Oh Danny Boy". What the hell got them from this movie to that POS "Intolerable Cruelty" :-X


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: David Aaronson on October 07, 2004, 07:44:07 AM
I personally think that Yojimbo is the better movie...although it's almost a tie. Kurosawa's style was better developed at the time and better executed with Yojimbo, than Leone's style was when he made AFOD.
Also, I think Mifune takes the edge over Eastwood, because of his shoulder... 8)


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: Two Kinds of ... on October 21, 2004, 11:16:54 PM
Fistfull is better.  I love Kurosawa but Yojimbo's ending isn't  nearly as cool as Fistfull's.  Isn't Yojimbo based on "Red Dust"?



Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: redyred on October 22, 2004, 04:34:09 AM
Fistfull is better.  I love Kurosawa but Yojimbo's ending isn't  nearly as cool as Fistfull's.  Isn't Yojimbo based on "Red Dust"?

Yojimbo's ending is awesome. That shot where Ushi-Tora's gang is advancing is incredible. And then Sanjuro dodges bullets and throws his knife with deadly accuracy. Ok, there's no homemade armour but it still tops FoD easily.


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: DJIMBO on October 22, 2004, 08:59:18 AM
i think yojimbo's probably a better film, but theyre both examples of two great directors not quite at their peak but making bloody exciting films.


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: The Smoker on October 22, 2004, 03:10:59 PM
For me the stray dog with the severed hand in his mouth. Beats the dead guy (adios amigo) on a horse.

Just for a dose of what kind of town are Man is working into.

You really do a double take on it the first time. Its a fast one.. rewind button at hand 'no pun intended'  ;D

The dog thing crops up quite a few times in Yojimbo.
Mifune charactor mentions something about 'Dogs being second class citizens in this town of crooks & villians etc' Sanjuro himself could be seen as a stray dog drifting into town to take what he wants, moving back and forth from gang to gang.



Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: dave jenkins on October 22, 2004, 06:39:31 PM
i think yojimbo's probably a better film, but theyre both examples of two great directors not quite at their peak but making bloody exciting films.

That puts it rather well, I think.


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: indio on December 11, 2004, 03:18:15 AM
visitor you mentioned Sato's soundtrack to yojimbo earlier in this forum but i can't find it anywhere , do you know where to look?


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: iceman on December 12, 2004, 02:54:31 AM
Fellow Brethern,

First, lets be honest, Leone totally copied YOJIMBO.

But second, Kurosawa did his own copying from an American story (according to Something to do with death).

Third and most importantly, Leone's FFOD is by far superior...

Case in point:
1. Leone's introduction of Marisol from the beginning and Clint's building relationship with her is by far more powerful that Kurosawa's - It also produces mystery and tension throughout the first act and a good part of the second act - lastly, Ramon's desire to have Marisol returned is more strongly established than the Kurosawa's version, created a more intense explosion for the finally.

2. The idea that these Lord's would allow the Yojimbo to go back and forth and play them such fools is silly and maybe that's funny to the Japanese but I found it tiresome. Leone's who clock and dagger of the anti-hero made it so much better because we all know the dude is going to pay for it.

3. Leone's pacing is right on and in YOJIMBO, I found the pacing boring... and this is not to say Leone has a face paced film because he doesn't.

Man, I love Leone... I wish he could have made a few more films.



Is Yojimbo available on DVD?
iceman


Title: Re:YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: indio on December 12, 2004, 04:40:22 AM
try it here iceman
http://www.play.com/play247.asp?page=title&r=R2&title=85055&p=57&g=72
i would recommend the sequel 'Sanjuro' as well (its not FOD) also 7 Samurai which was remade as the Mag. 7
or hidden fortress which was remade as Star Wars.


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: almulock on February 20, 2005, 09:07:13 AM
hear, hear!


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: titoli on December 28, 2006, 03:30:05 PM
I resaw the japanese this summer and thought how lucky was Kurosawa (not my favourite director) to have those two remakes of his movies. Expecially this one. I class FOD as my least favourite Leone, but I prefer it to Kurosawa's because of the high points: the first shooting (that marks the great divide between the old western and the new) and the final duel. Those are two great moments which I wouldn't give away for 10 Yojimbo. Probably (for sentimental reasons) even for the rest of Leone's filmography, with the exception of FFDM last duel and the Ecstasy of Gold. That also goes to say that Morricone's score is not perfect as those which will follow, but the final deguello and the titoli the (good) japanese composer could only dream them.


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: dave jenkins on December 28, 2006, 03:47:06 PM
These are going to look spectacular:
http://www.amazon.com/Yojimbo-Sanjuro-Kurosawa-Criterion-Collection/dp/B000K0YM0Y/sr=1-1/qid=1167345710/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-1512335-1543158?ie=UTF8&s=dvd


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: dave jenkins on January 19, 2007, 03:51:32 PM
Beaver review/comparison: http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDReviews11/yojimbo.htm


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: dave jenkins on January 25, 2007, 04:45:35 PM
The Criterion re-release of Yojimbo/Sanjuro is out and my copy arrived yesterday. The bad news is that DVDBeaver is right, Criterion has cropped the images, and to get the 2.35:1 ratio they've cropped them on all 4 sides. The good news is that both films come with Stephen Prince commentaries. Although Prince is hopeless at pronouncing Japanese names, he gives better commentary on Kurosawa than anyone around. He is always well-researched and is able to bring his knowledge to bear upon his subject in ways that actually reveal new things to the listener.

So far I've only listened to the Yojimbo commentary and found it quite stimulating. At several junctures he points out where Leone was probably inspired by AK. His most interesting comment, however, has to do with the scene in which Sanjuro is captured and beaten. Although Yojimbo is thought to derive from Dashiell Hammett's Red Harvest, Prince contends that the beating scene owes a lot to the adaptation of another Hammett novel, The Glass Key. We have to keep in mind the fact that the book and the film are different works, of course (which is difficult to do in R1, since TGK has yet to be released on DVD and it's been years since I've seen the film), but the observation is evocative. (BTW, The Glass Key, the novel, was the inspiration for the Coen's Miller's Crossing).

Looking forward to watching Sanjuro with the commentary.


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: Sanjuro on January 25, 2007, 05:44:34 PM
Questions to Dave:

Regarding "Yojimbo",

1. How much was chopped off from the original composition? Are the titles in the opening sequence chopped off?
2. In the remastered edition, are the titles written in the original brush stroke Japanese characters?
3. Is the contrast improved?


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: dave jenkins on January 25, 2007, 05:56:52 PM
Titles looked okay. I'm pretty sure they got their master from Toho, so yeah, you get kanji now, not English titles. DVDBeaver has pretty good comparisons here: http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDReviews11/yojimbo.htm

I guess maybe the cropping isn't really that noticeable. It's more of a problem on Sanjuro.http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDCompare5/sanjuro.htm


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: Sanjuro on January 25, 2007, 10:13:59 PM
Titles looked okay. I'm pretty sure they got their master from Toho, so yeah, you get kanji now, not English titles. DVDBeaver has pretty good comparisons here: http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDReviews11/yojimbo.htm

I guess maybe the cropping isn't really that noticeable. It's more of a problem on Sanjuro.http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDCompare5/sanjuro.htm

Good lord, what an improvement! It's much sharper and it has much better contrast. And the original Japanese titles! It must have been mastered from the Toho master that was supervised by Kurosawa's DP Takao Saito.

Thank you Dave for the info. This is definitely a must-own edition. 


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: Mw/NNrules on October 25, 2007, 05:50:45 PM
Third and most importantly, Leone's FFOD is by far superior...
I've always found Yojimbo to be better. While there are bits of FoD I dislike, I think that Yojimbo had a better pace. The time passed quicker for me.


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: pat on October 30, 2007, 10:35:36 AM
 I love both but Leone is my favorite director an morricone is my favorite composer so I must say that I watch ffod more often than yojimbo
millers crossing is pretty close to both ffod and yojimbo but last man standing is obviously an intentional  remake ,changing the set from samurai and cowboys to gangsters.
another film heavily influenced by both yojimbo and ffod is James bond's  1989 licence to kill


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: dave jenkins on October 30, 2007, 02:11:29 PM
millers crossing is pretty close to both ffod and yojimbo. . . .
Miller's Crossing is pretty much a re-make of The Glass Key, whose source novel was written by Dashiell Hammet. Hammet also wrote Red Harvest, generally supposed the source for Yojimbo. Red Harvest and The Glass Key have similar plots, and it's not surprising that Hammet would re-use a story idea that had worked for him before.


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: dave jenkins on July 03, 2009, 08:06:59 PM
This is posted at the blog 300 Word About . . .  and is worth a look. http://300wordsabout.wordpress.com/2009/06/28/300-words-about-yojimbo/

Quote
300 Words About “Yojimbo”

Fans of A Fistful of Dollars should recognize Yojimbo, the samurai skeleton of Sergio Leone’s spaghetti Western. Given similar stories, this review will focus on how Kurosawa and Leone told them.

The portrayals resonate in the most important aspects. Cinematography avoids Hollywood shots, instead modeling their close-ups as still portraits and reveling in panorama, silence and the interplay between actors and empty space.

Yojimbo and its successor diverge most when characterizing villains. Though ruthless, Yojimbo’s Seibei and Ushitora are cowards who fight and bicker clownishly. Their notable henchmen are not only simpletons but impossibly ugly to boot: fat, balding Inokichi, for example, sports a unibrow stretching back to his temples. A bug-eyed Tazaemon even prefaces the last blood of the feud by pacing about, smacking his prayer drum in what resembles a hissy fit. Clint Eastwood’s enemies, by comparison, mix their ruthlessness with charisma and good grooming. Excluding their most expendable mercenaries, the Baxters and Rojos exude competence.

The films’ nameless heroes differ little. Sanjuro, like the Man with No Name, is a Machiavellian hero: a skilled fighter and diplomat and an honest liar. But divergent villains paint the otherwise similar protagonists with different overtones. Pervasive, gritty moral ambiguity prevents The Man with No Name from chuckling over outwitting his enemies- at least until he rescues Marisol and confirms himself as actually good. Sanjuro’s victory fanfare always plucks a comedic note- except, oddly, after he rescues Kohei’s kidnapped wife from prostitution and threatens to kill the whole family for thanking him. The intriguing part is while both incidents serve identical plot functions, they also reveal their heroes’ hidden honor.

The common story brings the subtler qualities of character and cinematography out to shine in Yojimbo and its Western protégé. Aspiring writers especially should study both incarnations of the classic plot.

***

“Yojimbo”
Directed by Akira Kurosawa
Screenplay by Akira Kurosawa and Ryuzo Kikushima
Produced by Tomo Yuki Tanaka and Ryuzo Kikushima (1961)

This entry was posted on June 28, 2009 at 10:45 AM


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: Rubio on January 25, 2010, 05:13:37 AM
Both are great films by great directors, who still made better after it. I could choose Fistful one day and Yojimbo the next, I love both movies. I think I slightly like Yojimbo more (I've always been a Samurai fanatic being a big reason) but that FFOD is a slightly better film. Again, both are great movies.  O0


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: Groggy on January 29, 2010, 03:51:40 PM
Yojimbo, slightly. 8/10 for Yojimbo and 7/10-ish for FOD.


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: dave jenkins on January 30, 2010, 11:47:55 AM
I can go along with that.


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: Rojo Ramone on March 18, 2010, 06:26:22 PM
I prefer FFoD.

Never cared much for Kurasawa


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: The Firecracker on December 15, 2010, 12:57:43 AM
I'm with Titoli that FOD is a better watch for me merely for the two scenes he cited.
I prefer Sanjuro to Yojimbo anyway.


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: The Firecracker on January 30, 2011, 10:41:37 PM
Anybody even read the Hammet novel Red Harvest?

Maybe we can finally put to bed all that stuff about the Kurosawa film being based on it.


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: titoli on January 31, 2011, 12:09:14 AM
Anybody even read the Hammet novel Red Harvest?



I read it twice, actually. But then you know what the italian lawyers said, that it was based on Goldoni's piece "Arlecchino servitore di due padroni". The Hammett novel has as a basic plot the protagonist create a feud between two rival gangs in an imaginary city. I think that's where all the similarity ends, though I read the novel 30 years ago for the last time. I also have the dvd of the piece (which I saw in the '70's) but I presume the similarities are even less. 


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: stanton on January 31, 2011, 01:39:17 AM
I read it also twice. And Titoli is right.

It is only the basic idea. But that is an idea an artist can get by himself. But if Kurosawa has read the Hammet novel he surely got the inspiration for Yojimbo from there. Or at least one of the inspirations.

But read this:

http://www.spaghetti-western.net/index.php/Four_Artists_and_a_Man_with_No_Name



Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: cigar joe on January 31, 2011, 06:35:24 PM
Not too long ago I posted this:

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=6814.msg103334#msg103334

&

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=6814.msg102606#msg102606


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: Jill on February 01, 2011, 09:24:22 AM
I'd read the book, it's good... but it has not much to do with any of the films. And Last Man Standing bored me to death.


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: Senza on February 23, 2013, 07:22:26 PM
I prefer FOD, maybe because I saw it first. I thought Yojimbo was a pretty good movie but for me it took a while to get going, I also think its sequel, Sanjuro is the better movie. In terms of ratings:
- A Fistful Of Dollars = 5/5 stars
- Yojimbo = 3/5 stars

This is my rating system,
0/5 = Hated It
1/5 = Didn't Really Like It
2/5 = Meh, It Was Alright
3/5 = Liked It
4/5 = Really Liked It
5/5 = Loved It


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: titoli on January 20, 2014, 12:49:44 AM
What had always having me wondering was why Leone should go to see Yojimbo in the July 1963.  Yes, the air-conditioning might have been a factor, still I wonder. Now, I've just read a review of Kurosawa's movie made at the time by a writer who, sadly, passed away before Fistful was released. In his review he  explicitly mentions western and John Ford. So, maybe Leone went to see the movie because of the air-conditioning or because of Kurosawa. But the idea of making a western out of it was not so original. And I'd bet he read the review in question.


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 20, 2014, 02:38:54 AM
FOD


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: Cusser on January 21, 2014, 06:47:34 AM
Clint also said that he had already seen Yojimbo, so he knew that FOD was a Yojimbo re-do.


Title: Re: YOJIMBO VS. FFOD
Post by: titoli on January 21, 2014, 10:22:44 AM
Clint also said that he had already seen Yojimbo, so he knew that FOD was a Yojimbo re-do.

That is proven by the fact that he does that homage to Mifune after he corrects his coffin order. He never said though that he had thought at the time  that the jap movie could be turned into a western. Or at least I don't remember he said it.