Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => The Good, The Bad and The Ugly => Topic started by: sadhill on September 15, 2005, 03:30:41 PM



Title: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: sadhill on September 15, 2005, 03:30:41 PM
I asked a question about this scene a long while ago (2-21-03), and asked what was the original  sentence Eastwood said that was dubbed over, I got no answer then. Well if you mute it and watch I think he says

"Five to one makes it easy. That's a perfect number large one." (check this out muted and see if I'm right)

 However as you know  it is dubbed over "Every gun makes it's own tune, and it's perfect timing large one" (according to the subtitles).

So why was this dubbed over?  I think it was done because Blondie assumed Tuco just killed one of  Angel Eyes' gang, now making 5, but since the movie was edited, we never saw that "in the woods" cut scene where he meets the 6, and states 1,2 3 4...6 a perfect number. So his above statement about 5  would make no sense  to the viewer without seeing that  edited out woods scene, and thus the dubbed voice over. (It would also have  sounded repetitive and inconsistant about the 6 then 5 being a perfect number.) And besides how would he have known that Tuco killed one of the gang? In fact Tuco just killed the man with one arm. Also still assuming Tuco killed a gang member and then after Blondie kills Lorenzo Robeldo in the street, he would have met Tuco and said there were 4 not 5. But as it is shown he says " He's not alone theres five of them" so this would be a missmatch in the numbers. Maybe another script edit in there somewhere.

What do you think? Any other thoughts?


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: iceman on September 15, 2005, 04:16:38 PM
Got to agree with you on the wording....it sure looks like what you suggest. Not sure about him thinking TUCO had killed one of the gang. None of the gang had left the ruins had they, so he would know where they all were. Also how did he recognise TUCO's gun. I have my own theory on that point ??? ??? ??? ???

ICE


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: sadhill on September 15, 2005, 05:15:22 PM
Good point about Tuco, and all being accounted for...my Cattivo!  So then why the phrase  "Five to one makes it easy. That's a perfect number large one." I should have watched and re-watched again further back.  Blondie enters the town with AE+5, Blondie hears the shot, talks to the cat, maybe  so the gang won't hear him, and again you were right all accounted for... AE (on bed)+5 are present when he leaves the building. Something is missing? I don't know what.  If the original text was left in it makes no sense, with or without the cut woods scene.  Maybe thats why the voice over dub.  And how did Blondie know Tuco was in town, just because of that gunshot? and  where he was? what building? Again something is missing during this scene.


(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/2831/afterkittystatement2sr.jpg)


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: Sackett on September 15, 2005, 08:11:32 PM
I always thought he said something like
"bright one"


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: il brutto on September 16, 2005, 02:52:16 AM
Hello guys, I'm new in this forum, I'm italian and apologize for my not perfect english. I just read this post by sadhill and in my opinion all the kitten scene makes perfect sense. In the italian version Clint says: every gun has its own tune, and I recognize this one.
Then he meets Tuco and tells him, they are five and all quick. It's correct because he had just killed one and there were five left. When he left the bombed house he knew they were all inside, so he could not think Tuco killed one of them. He just heard Tuco's gun "voice" without figuring who he had shot, and finding Tuco only following his instinct. So I guess that the orginal Clint phrase was dubbed simply because it was wrong, in fact at that moment the guys to kill were 6 not 5.


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: Half Soldier on September 16, 2005, 10:42:32 AM
Iceman

I really need to know your theory.  When you realise that Tuco wouldn't have had a gun when taken away on the train by Wallace, it ruins the whole point of Blondie saying it (IMO)

Your theory may redeem it.   :)


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: cigar joe on September 16, 2005, 04:08:28 PM
There are two ways of looking at this either the gun that Tuco puts together has a distinct sound and Blondie recognizes that particular sound. (The speed at which Tuco puts together his custom gun indicates that he's done so before, and that he could easily have done it again once leaving Wallace).

The other way you could interpret it is the way Tuco shoots his gun the cadence he uses may be familiar to Blondie so when he says "every Gun has its own tune" he could be meaning Gun with a capital "G" as short for "Gunfighter, Gunman, Gunslinger, etc., etc."


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: Beebs on September 16, 2005, 06:04:37 PM
hence, He's a good Gun. Hired Guns


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: sadhill on September 16, 2005, 09:04:37 PM
Well I think I figured it out with your replies and input. If we are speaking about the cadence/rhythm/pattern of Tuco's gunshots, there are 3 instances in which he fires off his gun multiple times. In the beginning of the film when the 3 gunmen go in, behind the gunshop, and the bathtub scene.

 Let's throw out the beginning scene for a minute. While practicing in back of the gunshop he rapid fires off 5 shots, then there is about a 7 second delay and then a 6th shot. During the bathtub scene, he rapid fires off 4 shots then about 7 seconds later a 5th. HOWEVER if you review this scene frame by frame and listen to the gunshots, one gunshot is NOT heard, it's missing, it is the gunshot flash in frame #5. Watch it you will see the flash! 

 Assuming I'm right and Tuco actually fires off 5 in rapid succession followed by a 7 second delay and then the 6th shot, ( now a 2nd time he does this shooting pattern in the movie) this now makes Blondie original statement "Five to one makes it easy. That's a perfect number large one" valid... meaning maybe  "5 quick shots followed by 1" making it "easy" to ID the shooter... this 5 to 1 sequence a "perfect number" indicating only Tuco....

Maybe because of an audio edit mistake, because one gunshot sound is missing ,they substitute and dub "Every gun makes it's own tune, and it's perfect timing large one" almost with the same meaning without the numbering reference. They could have dubbed in another gunshot sound, but the original 5 to 1 statement is confusing and probably would have needed a little more explanation.  Hey almost 40 years later we are still talking about it :)

(I threw out the beginning scene because we can't see the gun flashes, anything could have happened in editing, but  there is 4 shots followed by a slight delay and then a 5th, and don't watch the "Special Edition" version, we know how they screwed up the gunshot "sound" in this version.)

Thoughts??

 (http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/9043/tucobathtubscene2fc.jpg)


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: cigar joe on September 17, 2005, 05:17:44 AM
certainly valid.


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: Sackett on September 17, 2005, 07:14:29 PM
Its still a gaff.


Title: GBU script says . . .
Post by: Hanley on September 19, 2005, 04:26:52 AM
The 5:1 analogy is very good. In the "GBU script", Tuco fires five shots, says his line and then, after standing up, fires the last shot. Next, in the GBU script, Blondie's eyes widen with astonishment and he thinks about the pattern of the shots. The camera view widens to show Blondie lying on a double bed in the shade of his hat. He gets up and says, "I don't like the sound of those shots. It could be Northeners. I'll have a quick look etc . . .". There is no mention of the kitten.


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: Half Soldier on September 19, 2005, 01:35:32 PM
Big thanks to Joe and Sadhill for giving the scene its validity back.


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: iceman on September 19, 2005, 03:38:33 PM
Iceman

I really need to know your theory.  When you realise that Tuco wouldn't have had a gun when taken away on the train by Wallace, it ruins the whole point of Blondie saying it (IMO)

Your theory may redeem it.   :)

I'm still a bit unsure on your  5.1 shooting theory. How does Blondie recognise the pattern/cadence of TUCO's shooting. He has only  heard TUCO fire five shots ( this was my theory as to how Blondie new what his gun sounded like) in the desert scene, the last one (when he shoots his hat) after about a four second wait. Also the gun Wallace is carrying which could have been TUCO's is thrown away by TUCO when he tries to break the chain, and I'm assuming he doesn't take it with him.
One more point. If TUCO empties his gun into Mullock, then gets back in the bath, when Blondie arrives at the hotel he gets out of the bath and goes to the door...with an empty gun??

I'm still confused ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

ICE


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: cigar joe on September 19, 2005, 04:17:46 PM
Its sort of like Leone's rule of what is out of the frame the actors can't see, in this case the rule can be stated as what is not shown doesn't mean something didn't happen.

You have to assume that Tuco & Blondie were together enough for Blondie to get to know Tuco's habbits, his style of shooting, the sound and cadence of his shots, etc., etc.

During their con games those all had to take place over a period of weeks, later after the double cross when Tuco chases Blondie down he keeps checking the campfires to see how old the trail is each campfire is a night.

During the desert sequence for instance what I would think had to be a couple of days was condenced into what 10-15 minutes of screen time.

During the wagon ride after the mission, they are covering a lot of time and territory remember when Tuco pulls out the map they have a lot of ground to cover as he describes their treck, that might be a weeks worth of of travel.


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: sadhill on September 19, 2005, 05:50:05 PM
And to think I know this movie! Dummy me! I forgot about and did not add the in the desert canteen shooting scene! Well yes the sound of only 4 then 1 shots is heard, but it looks maybe like the canteen was hit 5 times, making it "5 to 1" once again. The lower 4 holes when it was shot on the ground, the upper splintered shot from the other side out of Blondie's hand. ( I know they probably didn't shoot it out of Eastwood's hand, but maybe the actually shot it in reality if they were still using the "5 to 1" trait, (a close up on a canteen better have the 5 holes). Remember in gunfire the entrance wound is usually small and  circular, the exit is blown-out/cone shaped(like in glass) or splintered out as in wood.

This was maybe a orginal flaw written in for Tuco's character to empty his gun during a shootout. But if he does this, expecially in this scene, why didn't Blondie take a chance and just jump him if he did in fact fire off all six shots. Also as iceman pointed out, why get out of the tub and go the door with an unloaded gun.  Maybe these questions came up during post-production and  they just altered that  exacting character trait.  Great discussion, thanks for all your replies/opinions!

(http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/796/gbucanteen2at.jpg)


Title: GBU script Tuco 5:1 ++times
Post by: Hanley on September 20, 2005, 02:34:38 AM
There are quite a few examples of Tuco's firing pattern of 5:1 in the script:
1) Opening scene
2) Gunshop scene
3) Water canteen
4) Shelled town
I expored the script pretty quickly but there is in my mind no doubt about the 5:1 system, especially when the script states that Blondie thought about the pattern of the shots in the shelled town scene! The 5:1 theme may have been overlooked during shooting (pardon the pun) and/or during editing.


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: cigar joe on September 20, 2005, 04:36:05 AM
thanks for all the imput


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: johnk on September 20, 2005, 09:07:48 AM
Its sort of like Leone's rule of what is out of the frame the actors can't see, in this case the rule can be stated as what is not shown doesn't mean something didn't happen.

You have to assume that Tuco & Blondie were together enough for Blondie to get to know Tuco's habbits, his style of shooting, the sound and cadence of his shots, etc., etc.

During their con games those all had to take place over a period of weeks, later after the double cross when Tuco chases Blondie down he keeps checking the campfires to see how old the trail is each campfire is a night.

During the desert sequence for instance what I would think had to be a couple of days was condenced into what 10-15 minutes of screen time.

During the wagon ride after the mission, they are covering a lot of time and territory remember when Tuco pulls out the map they have a lot of ground to cover as he describes their treck, that might be a weeks worth of of travel.
Yes I think you are right.Doesnt the Al Mulloch character in the bath tub scene say hes been looking for Tuco for eight months ?


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: cigar joe on September 20, 2005, 06:28:38 PM
Yea, something like eight months or so.


Title: More Tuco 5:1 in script
Post by: Hanley on September 23, 2005, 04:32:44 AM
Good work Sadhill! I found another case (absent in the film) of Tuco's 5:1 shooting in the script. Once again, I have read it pretty quickly.
The shelled town scene: first, there was the 5:1 shooting in the bathtub scene. A bit later, Tuco goes to the room of the demolished housewhere Angel Eyes had been. The camera shows a man sleeping in the bed with his face to a door. The door suddenly flies open, followed by "6 shots, 5 +1". The script explicitly states that there were 5 shots then another. Back to the scene, Tuco tears the sheets back, but instead of finding Angel Eye's, there is the corpse of "Slim". There is a note on the bedside table . . . Tuco has trouble reading it . . . Blondie appears and takes the note from him . . . It states, "Bravo, until soon" etc


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: Jordan Krug on September 23, 2005, 10:29:36 AM
Hanley - where did you get your copy of the script? Also in the script and that scene you just mentioned- does it say "idiots, it's for us" (which is what he is saying if you watch Eastwood's mouth) or "idiots, it's for you" which is what they dubbed?

Thanks


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: iceman on September 23, 2005, 02:46:26 PM
Just to clarify one last thing Sad........Blondie probably didn't jump TUCO when he shot the canteen and emptied his gun because didn't TUCO have blondies gun on him as well...so he was still armed..and wasn't  there also a rifle knocking about somewhere. :) :) :) :) :)

ICE


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: HEX on September 23, 2005, 05:28:25 PM
ICEMAN is right the knife TUCO has can be seen in the deleted(and just put back in) of TUCO  taunting BLONDIE while eating.


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: iceman on September 24, 2005, 02:39:01 PM
ICEMAN is right the knife TUCO has can be seen in the deleted(and just put back in) of TUCO  taunting BLONDIE while eating.

Sorry HEX I was meaning Blondies gun and rifle ::) ::) ::) ::)

ICE


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: sadhill on September 24, 2005, 05:54:45 PM
Iceman, yes Tuco has Blondie's gun and his rifle. Tuco has Blondies silver snake gripped Colt pistol in his belt.  I just thought that since this was early in the walk, it might have been his best opportunity to jump Tuco, but rewatching it, he really is too far away from Tuco for an attack.

(http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5/aftercanteenshoot5kf.jpg)
 About the rifle, well hmmm,...I'll let you guys re-watch it, He does take the rifle, but watch and see when it actually appears on the horse. I don't want to post another error nit-pick!


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: The Man With A Hand Brace on November 12, 2005, 04:39:34 PM

It makes more sense to ignore the "five-to-one" line.

As for recognising the sound of someone's gun, I'd say that would be very difficult, seeing as so many people could use the same make.

In this instance, I think it's a case of dramatic necessity over logic.

The audience just needs to know that Blondie has been alerted to Tuco's presence. Knowing the tune of his gun is just another one of Blondies near supernatural abilities (perfect shot, cat-like reflexes, etc.), and is the easiest way to have him leave the bombed-out building.

It's probably a device to get Blondie to team up with Tuco again, and not necessarily something that could happen in real life. Alittle bit of movie coincidence, that's all.


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: emmo26 on December 14, 2012, 06:59:32 AM
Thanks for clearing that up.....


Out of interest did anyone count the number of "empty" shots tuco fired straight after the Mexican Standoff


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 22, 2012, 07:58:40 PM
I don't know if this will shed any light on this issue, but I'll just point out,  (thanks to Frayling's blu ray commentary) that there are several moments in the film where the dubbing changes the words that are originally spoken. Two specific things I remember him saying:

A) During shooting, Angel Eyes's name was Sentenze; every time the name Angel Eyes is mentioned, you can see the actors actually saying "Sentenza." After filming, Eastwood came up with the idea to change the name to Angel Eyes.

B) The line "Idiots... it's for you," originally was "Idiots.. it's for us." And you can see this as well in Eastwood's lips. It wasn't till later that (someone?) realized it would be much better to have him say"it's for YOU."

Al this shows is that there is precedent for dialogue being changed between shooting and dubbing

As for the 5-1 shooting, (I didn't read every post here, so forgive me if I'm repeating something, but IF it's correct, it sort of makes sense there would be a hesitation: cuz you'd never want to shoot your final bullet unless you have to; you'd always wanna have a bullet remaining, in case someone sneaks up on you before you get a chance to reload. So after shooting 5 shots, before shooting the 6th you'd pause -- to make absolutely certain that there is nobody else around, that no one else is gonna sneak up on you, before emptying your gun. So if he does empty his revolver, it makes sense that he'd pause a moment -- to make sure there's no other threat -- before doing so.


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: emmo26 on December 23, 2012, 07:16:22 AM


A) During shooting, Angel Eyes's name was Sentenze; every time the name Angel Eyes is mentioned, you can see the actors actually saying "Sentenza." After filming, Eastwood came up with the idea to change the name to Angel Eyes.


Didnīt Leone originally want Henry Fonda to play LVCīs part and the name was going to be Blue Eyes?


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: Senza on March 18, 2013, 05:43:31 AM
I think it was for LVC's part in FDM not GBU


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: Cusser on June 01, 2013, 08:30:23 AM
During shooting, Angel Eyes's name was Sentenze; every time the name Angel Eyes is mentioned, you can see the actors actually saying "Sentenza." After filming, Eastwood came up with the idea to change the name to Angel Eyes.

Right, called Sentenza in international versions.  So what is the Italian (translated) for the line "I bet they don't call you Angel Eyes.  Sergent Angel Eyes", then Tuco laughs.  What would be the joke if Sentenza didn't have a nickname?


Title: Re: Kitty scene dubbed
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 01, 2013, 10:13:40 AM
Right, called Sentenza in international versions.  So what is the Italian (translated) for the line "I bet they don't call you Angel Eyes.  Sergent Angel Eyes", then Tuco laughs.  What would be the joke if Sentenza didn't have a nickname?

I'd like to know this as well.