Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => Once Upon A Time In The West => Topic started by: Jupa on November 13, 2002, 06:06:19 AM



Title: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Jupa on November 13, 2002, 06:06:19 AM
In my opinion,Once Upon a Time in the West is not only the best western but also the best movie ever.In fact,OUATITW made me become interested in the movies of Sergio Leone and in spaghetti westerns more generally.

This movie has it all:fantastic music,good plot,picturesque landscapes,and,of course,characters that are greater than life.Nothing can surpass this masterpiece.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Renny on November 13, 2002, 10:20:53 AM
I agree with you Jupa, only I would put  OUATIA on the same level. ;D


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Sabbath on November 13, 2002, 03:31:43 PM
It's my favorite Leone/Italian western. Someday I  hope to have it on DVD. The only western I like better is THE WILD BUNCH.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Cal on November 13, 2002, 07:41:07 PM
It is indeed a great film. But I tend to think GBU is a better over all film. Maybe it is the pacing or the story and the fact that Tuco steals the film. I am also partial towards Eastwood and would have liked to have seen him as Harmonica. Anyway, still a cool flick, even with Bronson.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Renny on November 14, 2002, 10:25:12 AM
Say Cal, I have the feeling if Clint was in the film it would've been your favorite :)


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Cal on November 14, 2002, 11:48:50 AM
 ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: cheem_2000 on November 17, 2002, 11:21:55 AM
In my opinion,Once Upon a Time in the West is not only the best western but also the best movie ever.In fact,OUATITW made me become interested in the movies of Sergio Leone and in spaghetti westerns more generally.

This movie has it all:fantastic music,good plot,picturesque landscapes,and,of course,characters that are greater than life.Nothing can surpass this masterpiece.

I agree with you completely...an excellent film. Whats your favourite part of the film? Mine is when Claudia Cardinale realises no-one is going to meet her at the station. The main theme starts to play quietly then the camera moves slowly and sedately, stops outside the ticket-office as she asks directions. Then the camera rises majestically in time to the soaring music to reveal the new town and her walking with her driver. There are plenty more but that will do for now. Pure art.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Renny on November 17, 2002, 01:37:19 PM
The opening scene was outstanding. The three gunmen looking very at ease with the small details like the water drops falling on the hat and the anoying fly accompanied with the squeeky sound of an old sign.
Than further on there's L'Homme d'Harmonica with his answer to the remark "one horse short" is; no "two too many". This was to me the greatest opening to a film I've ever seen 8)


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Ramon on November 17, 2002, 02:39:58 PM


Very difficult question, I would go for For A Few Dollars More in slight preference over GBU and OUTW, I prefer the musical themes and particularly enjoyed the whole Agua Caliente section of the story to the final shoot out between Indio and Mortimer to the pocket watch musical theme.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Jupa on November 18, 2002, 05:31:50 AM
It is indeed a great film. But I tend to think GBU is a better over all film. Maybe it is the pacing or the story and the fact that Tuco steals the film. I am also partial towards Eastwood and would have liked to have seen him as Harmonica. Anyway, still a cool flick, even with Bronson.

I think no one could have performed Harmonica's role better than Bronson.There is something about his appearance and his "granite" face that appeals to me very much.I think Harmonica was Bronson's best role ever.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Renny on November 18, 2002, 02:35:41 PM
We can shake hands Jupa ;D


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Jupa on November 25, 2002, 03:34:32 AM

I agree with you completely...an excellent film. Whats your favourite part of the film? Mine is when Claudia Cardinale realises no-one is going to meet her at the station. The main theme starts to play quietly then the camera moves slowly and sedately, stops outside the ticket-office as she asks directions. Then the camera rises majestically in time to the soaring music to reveal the new town and her walking with her driver. There are plenty more but that will do for now. Pure art.


My favourite part of the film...I think it's the final duel between Harmonica and Frank,which is also the best duel of all the movie duels.The time stands still,as the music plays and Leone takes those extreme close-ups of the characters faces.I've watched this part of the film several times,and it has a huge impact on me every single time I see it.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: jouissance on December 19, 2002, 07:14:37 PM
I agree with CAL. GBU touches many more emotional strings for me. In my opinion, I think itís score is the greatest of all time. I think OUTW become too encumbered by Claudia Cardinaleís character as well as the Railroad Baron. I prefer the mono a mono sensibility of GBU. Lastly, GBUís pacing works much better. This is not to say, OUTW is not great! I love it and canít wait for itís DVD release.
Although I love Clint Eastwood, I think Bronson was perfect as Harmonica. That role almost needed a smaller actor I think. Besides, I think Eastwood is too WASPy for that role.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Jupa on January 01, 2003, 11:55:00 AM
I think GBU's main theme is unparalleled in westerns,but OUATITW has better music on the whole.I don't think that Cardinale's character or the railroad boss played too big a part.And in the end there is a "man to man" shoot-out.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: cigar joe on January 01, 2003, 04:08:59 PM
Oh come on my vote is with GUB, GBU was very original in storyline, entertainment value, music and plot twists which I enjoy the whole way through. The three way corrida shootout was one of the greatest ever,  while OUTITW was more an homage to the traditional western with the traditional themes.

That said, I do very much enjoy the opening sequence, ( by the way that's the linkage to the pump on the windmill thats making the groaning sound) the initial McBain Ranch scene when Frank and his theme are introduced, Clauduia's entrance and Lionel Stander's way station. I also liked the gunfight on the train. Other sections seem to drag a bit for me. The town shoot out was already done in GBU, and we knew that Bronson would win the shootout with Frank. I like the ending sequence with the railroad gangs.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Jupa on January 04, 2003, 09:08:29 AM
Well,I think that while OUATITW was a bit more traditional as for the plot,it was a real masterpiece with great music and characters.The movie proceeds slowly,which is good,because Leone "takes his time",thus having a great impact on the audience.I think we also knew Clint would be standing after the trio,and that van Cleef would die.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: cigar joe on January 11, 2003, 04:46:51 PM
I'm not really complaining all that much about OUTITW, but that in town shootout was done before in a similar fashion in GBU.



Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Jupa on January 20, 2003, 04:46:21 AM
You mean the scene with Blondie asking Tuco "Were you gonna die alone" is similar to the scene where Frank's men are trying to kill him in the town?Well yes,there is some similarity between those tho scenes.

But imitation is the finest form of art.  :)


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: cigar joe on January 20, 2003, 05:14:51 AM
Yes that is the scene, it bogs down there for me somewhat.  :)


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: shorty larsen on February 08, 2003, 09:40:52 AM
First off all, hello to everyone, i'm a new member.

OUTW is probably the best film of Leone. But don't forget that the final result of OUTA is not the result that Leone would have given to the film. Who knows exactly what king of film OUTA would have been?


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Jupa on February 15, 2003, 09:41:09 AM
Well,there are at least two versions of the film in public circulation,one of which was closer to Leone's original vision.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: shorty larsen on February 15, 2003, 10:39:38 AM
I think that the "european" version is the closest one. And the longest one (almost 4 hours)

But even the "european" version had not the final edition that Leone would have desire.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Groggy on March 29, 2003, 05:14:21 AM
  Greatest Western?  Yes.  Greatest film?  Not IMO, but it's close.

 


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Il Buono on March 29, 2003, 09:10:21 AM
It's a matter of taste, Zuchovsky...


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Jupa on May 21, 2003, 06:10:01 AM
 Greatest Western?  Yes.  Greatest film?  Not IMO, but it's close.

 

Well,what is the greatest film then,CSM?

And even though this may be a bit off-topic here,the greatest television series is definitely the X-Files.I think you agree with me on this,CSM.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Christopher on June 07, 2003, 03:43:35 PM
I just very recently watched Once Upon a Time in the West for the first time, and I would say that it became one of my favorite westerns. I still like GBU more, but this was very good.

I'm glad Charles Bronson played the part of Harmonica. If Clint Eastwood had, it would have been too much of a departure from his character from the Dollars trilogy (those movies stand alone perfectly). Well, I don't suppose a big departure, but there would still have been a harmonica present.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Groggy on June 07, 2003, 04:05:07 PM
Well,what is the greatest film then,CSM?

And even though this may be a bit off-topic here,the greatest television series is definitely the X-Files.I think you agree with me on this,CSM.

Greatest film?  Well, as far as I'm concerned, that's flux.  My top three are "The Godfather", "The Road to Perdition", and "Saving Private Ryan"; I can never decide which is my favorite at any given time.  OUATITW is fourth definitely, though.

And it may surprise you, but "The X-Files" isn't my favorite TV series; "Blackadder II" and the British version of "Cracker" beat it out.  Still up there definitely though.  ;D


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Hippieoddball1 on June 07, 2003, 08:56:07 PM
The road to perdition, i thought that was crap. In my opinion it's one of the most predictable films i have ever scene. I think most people liked that for 2 reasons. One becasue Paul Newman was innit, and becasue it was a gangster film and there has'n t been one for a while. Overated in my opinion.
But each to their own.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Il Buono on June 08, 2003, 03:28:47 AM
I didn't think it was crap, but it was very overrated...  It's beautifully shot, but nothing we haven't seen before, indeed.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Groggy on June 08, 2003, 09:35:50 AM
The road to perdition, i thought that was crap. In my opinion it's one of the most predictable films i have ever scene. I think most people liked that for 2 reasons. One becasue Paul Newman was innit, and becasue it was a gangster film and there has'n t been one for a while. Overated in my opinion.
But each to their own.

Well, we all have our own opinions.

I am no fan of Paul Newman (or not a big fan), but I do like gangster movies.  Predictable?  Well, I think that is one of the charms of it.  Maybe I'm a bit nuts, but seeing as it has been compared to Greek tragedy, it is supposed to be predictable.  I know I'm not going to change your opinion just by yapping.

Then again, there are a LOT of popular and/or "Classic" films that I find overrated: "Lawrence of Arabia", "The Searchers" (THERE's a can of worms), "O Brother Where Art Thou?", "Titanic", "The Manchurian Candidate" (I twice tried to watch it but couldn't stand more than fifteen minutes at a clip), "Dr. Strangelove (funny but still not a "classic") . . . need I go on?  ;D


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: s.p.a on June 09, 2003, 09:24:17 PM
Hi I am New,
I agree wholeheartedly. This is the greatest film IMO. This is the only film that I can sit and watch from the start to the end, over and over, despite it's length. For me everthing is perfect, the visuals, the music(especially).
The film has a real sense of operatic scope and breadth to it. My favourite part has to be towards the end, where Bronson steps in to the screen from the side as the fuzz guitar comes in. This gets me everytime. :o


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: train man on June 15, 2003, 12:01:57 AM
In my opinion,Once Upon a Time in the West is not only the best western but also the best movie ever.In fact,OUATITW made me become interested in the movies of Sergio Leone and in spaghetti westerns more generally.

This movie has it all:fantastic music,good plot,picturesque landscapes,and,of course,characters that are greater than life.Nothing can surpass this masterpiece.
[/quoteyes this fim is the SPACE ODYSSY of westerns 2001 a space odyssy could have been ONCE UPON A TIME IN SPACE and OUATITW could have been 1888 A WESTERN ODYSSY]


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: noodles_leone on June 15, 2003, 03:05:27 AM
1873 or 1874, not 1888.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: noodles_leone on June 15, 2003, 03:15:30 AM
I think OUATITW is the best western ever made. Realy much better that all Peckinpah's job (this guy is very very overatted).
I can't find any error in this movie: all the actors are perfect (i know that bronson is a bad actor, but in ouatitw, he has just to be quiet and Leone uses his physical apparence, which is great for the role), the music is one of the best morricone's scores,  tonino delli colli did a greatgreatgreat job, and Leone his best camera performance.
Think to the opening sequences: the firts scene, the introduction of frank (the best charactere intro ever made), of jill, of cheyenne...
Think to the final duel, the best ever made too (gbu's one was great, but just technical; this one was done with passion, gbu's one with professionalism (it isn't really an english word, i think)).

But i prefer one upon a time in america.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Frank on August 15, 2003, 11:25:30 AM
Let me add my two cents here.

Although GBU is a very good film, I don't think it even competes with OUTW in the best western or best film category.  

First GBU doesn't have the epic sweep that one expects in the best film or best western category.

My biggest problem with GBU is the civil war story which feels so pasted on.  Certainly the civil war could adequately reprent the folly of war, but  large scale battles were never a part of the west and the trench stalemate preview of WW1 didn't occur until the final years of the war.  I'm sorry also but the personal weapons used in GBU were not around in the 1860s.

OUTW on the other hand seems more theme consistent and except for the creep of European touches (railroad cars and rolling stock) is more true to the period.

OUTW has far more angles to the plot and symbols to expound upon which GBU is just a damn good double cross film.  


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: tommycat on August 25, 2003, 12:28:31 PM
No question. OUATITW ties as my all-time favorite film. The fact that it's a 'western' is almost secondary...used as a vehicle instead of a theme. I doubt it can ever be topped. Bronson was perfect for the role...it was fate. Eastwood is great, but one would have been robbed of the avenues of sympathy (or empathy) that can be obtained with Bronson. Kinda scarry how fresh the movie still feels. Flawless.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: The clint on August 25, 2003, 02:02:52 PM
OUATITW is the greatest western I have seen, but I have not seen all that many... And it's also up there with the best films made :)
I'm itching to get my DVD


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: aaronson on September 16, 2003, 07:26:24 AM
Best Western ? may be ..but Rio Bravo, Magnificent Seven.?
Best movie ever made ? No , sorry.Its an insult for Kubrick, Hitch,Huston,Kurosawa ,Von Sternberg and so on..
Best Leone's film ? OUTIW is wonderful but I support  Noodles and Guybrush and I vote for OUATIA . ::)


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Groggy on September 17, 2003, 08:15:51 AM
Let me add my two cents here.

Although GBU is a very good film, I don't think it even competes with OUTW in the best western or best film category.  

First GBU doesn't have the epic sweep that one expects in the best film or best western category.

My biggest problem with GBU is the civil war story which feels so pasted on.  Certainly the civil war could adequately reprent the folly of war, but  large scale battles were never a part of the west and the trench stalemate preview of WW1 didn't occur until the final years of the war.  I'm sorry also but the personal weapons used in GBU were not around in the 1860s.

OUTW on the other hand seems more theme consistent and except for the creep of European touches (railroad cars and rolling stock) is more true to the period.

OUTW has far more angles to the plot and symbols to expound upon which GBU is just a damn good double cross film.  

It depends on WHEN the movie took place.  If (as it apparently is) it took place during Sibley's New Mexico campaign in January-May 1862 (Sibley does appear, and the Union commander, E.R.S. Canby, is mentioned by Tuco), then there could be.  There were fairly large battles at Valverde, Apache Canyon, and Glorieta Pass, though admittedly nothing on the scale as seen in the film.  And you're 100% correct about the trench warfare.

I think OUATITW is much better than GBU, no questions in my mind.  :P


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Walter on September 24, 2003, 06:04:28 AM
"Best movie ever made ? No , sorry.Its an insult for Kubrick, Hitch,Huston,Kurosawa ,Von Sternberg and so on.."

With all due respect for Hitch, Kubrick, Kurosawa... This is a better movie than anything they ever made. Sorry about the insult. And how about The Godfather or Citizen Kane?

The best movie of all times? It is impossible for me to have a one clear favourite of all films ever, but OUATIW sure ranks among the finest ever.

I see that some have discussed Clint Eastwood in the leading role. I don't doubt that he was one of the few that could have pulled it off as good as Bronson (who was VERY good indeed), but it would have been the wrong role for Eastwood after the No Name-trilogy.
Way too similar, but also way too confusingly different.  

I have heard that Leone wanted Eastwood, Wallach and van Cleef to wait at the station in the beginning, though. Now, THAT would have been fun.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: visitor on September 24, 2003, 05:52:20 PM
you need to disassociate yourself from your feelings aroused by the nature of the film you're viewing when answering a question like this(otherwise we'd all vote for DEEP THROAT)

WEST is great theatre-operatic and visually stunning

GBU has a light comic touch to counterbalance the violence(Tarantino tries this but just doesn't get it right-too heavy handed)

7 SAMURAI... now THERE'S A GREAT FILM!!!!! drama, action, epic sweep, history, romance, comedy...akin to reading a great novel


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Groggy on September 25, 2003, 06:14:02 AM
you need to disassociate yourself from your feelings aroused by the nature of the film you're viewing when answering a question like this(otherwise we'd all vote for DEEP THROAT)

WEST is great theatre-operatic and visually stunning

GBU has a light comic touch to counterbalance the violence(Tarantino tries this but just doesn't get it right-too heavy handed)

7 SAMURAI... now THERE'S A GREAT FILM!!!!! drama, action, epic sweep, history, romance, comedy...akin to reading a great novel

Excuse me for being naive but I don't quite see what you're getting at.  So we can't like OUATITW as much as Seven Samurai because it looks good?  I enjoyed the acting, the action scenes, even the plot.  

And please explain this remark for me:
Quote
you need to disassociate yourself from your feelings aroused by the nature of the film you're viewing when answering a question like this(otherwise we'd all vote for DEEP THROAT)

Hey, I like Deep Throat.  Oh . . . you mean the movie.  Heh heh . . . sorry there.  ::)

I don't mean to insult you, visitor, but I don't see what you're getting at.  From what I see, you're saying that if a film looks very good, it can't be good.  Is that it?


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: visitor on September 25, 2003, 02:04:24 PM
 

"I don't mean to insult you, visitor, but I don't see what you're getting at.  From what I see, you're saying that if a film looks very good, it can't be good.  Is that it?"


I'm saying you don't marry the cheerleader with the big hogans because in twenty years she's gonna be tripping over 'em.
You pick the girl with more substance and stability.

ONCE/WEST is built on two premises-revenge and greed

7 SAMURAI(which has, BY THE WAY,  some of the most  stunning visuals of any film ever made) has themes of humanity, aging, love...hey wait...WEST has all these... and it's in COLOR..and Claudia has big ones just like that cheerleader back in school and...


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Groggy on September 25, 2003, 04:14:15 PM


"I don't mean to insult you, visitor, but I don't see what you're getting at.  From what I see, you're saying that if a film looks very good, it can't be good.  Is that it?"


I'm saying you don't marry the cheerleader with the big hogans because in twenty years she's gonna be tripping over 'em.
You pick the girl with more substance and stability.

ONCE/WEST is built on two premises-revenge and greed

7 SAMURAI(which has, BY THE WAY,  some of the most  stunning visuals of any film ever made) has themes of humanity, aging, love...hey wait...WEST has all these... and it's in COLOR..and Claudia has big ones just like that cheerleader back in school and...


Claudia (and Jill) is a very smart woman, so I wouldn't go that far.   ;D

I still don't see what you're getting at.  "OUATITW has all of these attributes PLUS the color and Claudia" - how is that a bad thing?  Though I like staring at Ms. Cardinale as much as the next bloke, most of my favorite scenes show neither hide nor hair of her (and in any cases she can act, so don't start with that).  Your analogy makes little sense to me personally, though you're entitled to your opinion.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: visitor on September 25, 2003, 05:10:04 PM
What I'm saying is
Just because a movie strikes your fancy, or arouses some desires, or looks great visually, doesn't make it a great film. If it did, T2 would be head of the class.

IMO(and that of many film students) ONCE/WEST (like most of Leone's films)has a very poor script. The pacing is terrific, visually it is superb, but there is no story.
 
Three plus hours of self concious camera moves elevated to an operatic level by Morricone's score does not a story make.

Without a true story to tell, Sergio dazzles with smoke and mirrors. I love the movie, tops of the genre, but not a GREAT film, let alone greatest of all time.

And who can tell if Claudia can act-she's dubbed in the English language version.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Groggy on September 25, 2003, 07:35:28 PM
What I'm saying is
Just because a movie strikes your fancy, or arouses some desires, or looks great visually, doesn't make it a great film. If it did, T2 would be head of the class.

IMO(and that of many film students) ONCE/WEST (like most of Leone's films)has a very poor script. The pacing is terrific, visually it is superb, but there is no story.
 
Three plus hours of self concious camera moves elevated to an operatic level by Morricone's score does not a story make.

Without a true story to tell, Sergio dazzles with smoke and mirrors. I love the movie, tops of the genre, but not a GREAT film, let alone greatest of all time.

And who can tell if Claudia can act-she's dubbed in the English language version.


A "true story"?  Okay . . . what do you consider a "true story"?  There is no such thing as an original plot when it comes to Westerns, even movies.  Everything is a remake, parody, or reworking of something.

As for your comment on Claudia - by your logic, no one in the film can act then, because EVERYONE was dubbed in the filmed (the Americans by themselves of course, but they were dubbed).  Though I think she did a great job here, see some of Claudia's other work ("8 1/2", "The Leopard") before you put her down as just a piece of furniture.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: visitor on September 26, 2003, 04:02:42 AM
So, what exactly is the "story" to ONCE/WESt?
You have 5 main characters and all they represent are greed and revenge.
Three hours of "kill or be killed"is not a "story".
What are the character arcs?
Even DUCK YOU SUCKER, which I don't enjoy as much, has a better "story".

Your attempt to twist my meaning "re:dubbing" is a juvenile argument.
The producers obviously didn't trust her with her own delivery.
I've seen plenty of performances by Ms Cardinale where she spoke her own lines-her delivery in English is very wooden. Not as a character who is using a second language such as Toshiro Mifune in RED SUN, but as someone using a teleprompter.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Angel Eyes on September 27, 2003, 05:23:45 PM
I thought the things that make a movie really great is the attention to detail, the lighting, editing, props, sets, costumes, dialogue...

Not only does ONCE/WEST "arouse some desires and look great visually" it has all the above and more.

Dont forget this is a story within a genre, we didnt really want Citizen Kane meets the Indians, did we?


Now there's an idea, spaghetti noir.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Groggy on September 27, 2003, 05:47:51 PM
I thought the things that make a movie really great is the attention to detail, the lighting, editing, props, sets, costumes, dialogue...

Not only does ONCE/WEST "arouse some desires and look great visually" it has all the above and more.

Dont forget this is a story within a genre, we didnt really want Citizen Kane meets the Indians, did we?


Now there's an idea, spaghetti noir.

Thanks for the save, Angel Eyes. ;D Very good points.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Angel Eyes on September 27, 2003, 06:02:04 PM
Thanks for the save, Angel Eyes. ;D Very good points.


Dont mention it, amigo.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: visitor on September 28, 2003, 06:00:42 AM
I thought the things that make a movie really great is the attention to detail, the lighting, editing, props, sets, costumes, dialogue...

Not only does ONCE/WEST "arouse some desires and look great visually" it has all the above and more.

Dont forget this is a story within a genre, we didnt really want Citizen Kane meets the Indians, did we?


Now there's an idea, spaghetti noir.

By the above criteria, ATTACK OF THE CLONES would rate as the greatest film ever made.

IMO, ONCE/WEST is not a western, but a critique of the western genre.

It is a movie ABOUT movies, not about gunfighters, or widows, or businessman. The characters are superfluous to what Leone was doing.

It plays so well because it is obviously Sergio's most personal film. He is not detached from his subject matter, but fully immersed in it. That's because the subject of the film is the directing ability and style of Sergio Leone.


This is how I would have shot the opening of HIGH NOON

This is how I would have shot the ranch scenes in THE SEARCHERS

This is how I would have handled "star cameos" like in HOW THE WEST WAS WON

etc etc etcetc..........

SL spends three hours critiquing the cliches of the American westerns, a genre he obviously held dear to his heart.



Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Angel Eyes on September 28, 2003, 10:27:11 PM
By the above criteria, ATTACK OF THE CLONES would rate as the greatest film ever made.

IMO, ONCE/WEST is not a western, but a critique of the western genre.

It is a movie ABOUT movies, not about gunfighters, or widows, or businessman. The characters are superfluous to what Leone was doing.


It plays so well because it is obviously Sergio's most personal film. He is not detached from his subject matter, but fully immersed in it. That's because the subject of the film is the directing ability and style of Sergio Leone.


This is how I would have shot the opening of HIGH NOON

This is how I would have shot the ranch scenes in THE SEARCHERS

This is how I would have handled "star cameos" like in HOW THE WEST WAS WON

etc etc etcetc..........

SL spends three hours critiquing the cliches of the American westerns, a genre he obviously held dear to his heart.



Firstly, I dont recall seeing any sets on Attack of the Clones, or seeing any great cinematography or hearing any great dialogue etc.etc, the same goes for T2 and Lord of the Rings and all the other modern films that equate to watching nothing more than a video game created on sound stages the size of a keyboard and mouse.

I thought ONCE/WEST was a film about the birth of a town and the characters within that subject matter.
The film IS full of western cliches, most of them created by SL himself in his earlier films, with a few nods and winks to his favourite films and directors.
I think there is more to it than mere self indulgence and showing off.

You have raised some very interesting talking points Visitor.
Respect due.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Jupa on November 07, 2003, 03:45:39 AM
Greatest film?  Well, as far as I'm concerned, that's flux.  My top three are "The Godfather", "The Road to Perdition", and "Saving Private Ryan"; I can never decide which is my favorite at any given time.  OUATITW is fourth definitely, though.

And it may surprise you, but "The X-Files" isn't my favorite TV series; "Blackadder II" and the British version of "Cracker" beat it out.  Still up there definitely though.  ;D

I see.Your former nic just gave me to understand that the Files would number one for you,too.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Groggy on November 07, 2003, 07:22:43 AM
I see.Your former nic just gave me to understand that the Files would number one for you,too.

Well, NOW it is.  At last post it wasn't.  ::) Sorry for the confusion, Jupa.

What's your favorite episode, just out of curiosity?  Mine would be "One Breath".


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Jupa on December 06, 2003, 04:48:48 AM
Quote
this fim is the SPACE ODYSSY of westerns 2001 a space odyssy could have been ONCE UPON A TIME IN SPACE and OUATITW could have been 1888 A WESTERN ODYSSY

LOL,nicely put.  :D

Once Upon a Time in the West, the Space Odyssey of westerns: 1888, A Western Odyssey.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: DJIMBO on December 14, 2003, 04:09:20 AM
ok so GBU is perfectly paced.
But no flashbacks! Leone's use of flashbacks is better here than in FAFDM and OUATIA. The end shootout where Harmonica flashes back to himself as a young boy being tortured is my favourite moment in cinema and McBain massacre is up there too.
I think it's the greatest film of all time (with the possible exception of Seven Samurai or Citizen Kane) and certainly better than The Wild Bunch!!


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Jupa on December 17, 2003, 04:44:51 AM
I just very recently watched Once Upon a Time in the West for the first time, and I would say that it became one of my favorite westerns. I still like GBU more, but this was very good.

I'm glad Charles Bronson played the part of Harmonica. If Clint Eastwood had, it would have been too much of a departure from his character from the Dollars trilogy (those movies stand alone perfectly). Well, I don't suppose a big departure, but there would still have been a harmonica present.

For me,GBU is number two.I also think Bronson was the best man to play the role of Harmonica.I think it was Bronson's best role ever.I could not think any other person for Harmonica.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Jupa on January 02, 2004, 03:40:08 AM
Well, NOW it is.  At last post it wasn't.  ::) Sorry for the confusion, Jupa.

What's your favorite episode, just out of curiosity?  Mine would be "One Breath".

Oh,it's all right.It's good to know that you've come to your senses.  :)

My favourite episode...Well,it's hard to pick one single episode,but Darkness Falls and Requiem were great.But there may be some others too...


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Il Buono on January 02, 2004, 04:17:58 AM
Visitor, you have said some interesting things here.  I must agree with what you said about Leone wanting to improve this scene and that scene and so...  But what you said about the story I cannot agree.  Firstly I don't think that a movie needs a complex, mature 'story'.  Check Kill Bill.  Westerns are not really about story too.  It's about characters and gunfights.  We like it because it brings up the child in us.  

Although I think OUTIW hŗs a story, even more complex than most films.  When you talk about character arcs and so, it's all in the film.   I guess you are talking about how characters have to change from beginning to ending.  But isn't staying stable in a changing world also changing?  Gary Cooper in High Noon knew what he stood for and he stayed almost the same throughout the whole picture.  So are Harmonica and Cheyenne here.  Frank changes from self-confident man in the beginning to a man who knows he's gonna die (cf the duel).
 I think it is even a wonderful screenplay if you consider it, because it's about this woman... only not.  To me, she seems more like the fundament where the house is built on.  So it starts off with this so-called main character, but Harmonica and Cheyenne are the ones we're really interested in and fill in the whole story.

This is a really interesting piece of storytelling if you ask me.

And for those looking for the perfect formula for a picture, good luck because I think a lot of people searched for it.   ;)


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: shorty larsen on January 02, 2004, 01:38:16 PM
I agree with you Buono. A movie doesn't need a "complex" or "mature" story.

Cinema is, first of all, video and sound. Of course, there is a hierarchy in video and sound. But cinema is that, first of all. Treatment of light and sound. And I would include THE WAY YOU TELL THE STORY.

If you have an excelent movie from the point of view of video and sound, and an excellent plot, the you have a masterpiece.

OUTW is a masterpiece.

I agree with the example of Kill Bill, wich is a huge movie to me. There is NO STORY AT ALL. Nothing. But it is Tarantino, and it is his way of telling this non-existing story.

Cinema is video and sound.

If you want a good story, you hace to read a book.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Il Buono on January 05, 2004, 12:23:06 PM
Definitely.  There are absolutely no rules.  Take The Blair Witch Project for example.  It is filmed rather crude, there is almost if not n but it is all in the sound, and it's still one of the scariest movies ever.  I think it's one hell of an accomplishment.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: shorty larsen on January 05, 2004, 02:20:21 PM
True!


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: KERMIT on January 05, 2004, 03:00:20 PM
Definitely.  There are absolutely no rules.  Take The Blair Witch Project for example.  It is filmed rather crude, there is almost if not n but it is all in the sound, and it's still one of the scariest movies ever.  I think it's one hell of an accomplishment.
 sometime sit down and watch the original version of "the haunting" .


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: deMaie on January 13, 2004, 10:25:40 PM
Hi all

I vote OUaTitW as my favorite of all time.

I have not seen all movies made so it is limited in this
way.

I like to see Casablanca, the Searchers, Ran, the Lion
in Winter, Jeremiah Johnson, the Last Valley, and others
like once a decade.

But OUaTitW, I could savour it 2-4 times a year just to
match every music note to an action or scenery Leone
though of. There is so much details ...

I'm really fond of The Wild Bunch as close second.
And since most modern movies can be referenced to
the old west(fictional or true), I like The Getaway(72),
Thunderbolt and Lightfoot,  and  Bullitt.

Peace


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: COLONNA on January 14, 2004, 08:20:40 AM
Hello Friends,

 It is not the first time we discuss together about "the best film...". IMO there is a big difference between to say" The film I  prefer"(subjective) and  "the best film  in Movie history" (objective).
        If we consider that Movie is an Art, and a complete one, we must be careful before to declare that "Attack of the Clones" or " my son filmed by the neighbour" is the best film ever made.
        For example who could seriously say that "The best  paintor" ... is my father because I love the portrait of my pet he made.If we talk about paintors , people would speak about Picasso, van Gogh or Modigliani... I suppose.
        Remember that Sergio himself was very modest in comparision with FORD, HAWKS, STURGES and others( Western only) and dozen of others great Directors he deeply respected himself.  :P



Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: El Orlando on June 20, 2004, 07:45:50 PM
This was the first Leone movie I saw, and pretty much from the moment it started I knew it was something special. Not many other films can change so dramatically your perception of what a film can be. Other than this, only twice have I been properly blown away by a film, with 2001 and Pulp Fiction. There's some of both these films in Leone. There's Kubrick's intense concern for style, for pace and for the beauty of a moving image, as well as Tarantino's concern for character. Once Upon a Time In the West manages to do so much with so little, and I think unlike Leone's other films it knows exactly what matters and what doesn't.

Its this perfection that makes me love it so much. To be honest its not my favourite Leone movie. The one I could watch repeatedly is FAFDM, but I couldn't really say that its a better film. OUATITW manages to capture all of the Leone themes which litter the other movies, but it doesn't attempt to dwell on any kind of deeper meaning, it remains a movie. I like GBU, and I like DYS but there pretensions to be epic just seem to get in the way of what I really find interesting about Leone. Thankfully Leone returned to his concern only for characters and not for 'gratuitous' scenes of men being executed in America. What's so cool about Leone is his concern not for abstract entities like politics ethics, but for the raw emotion of the characters. Like Frank, I think, at the end of FAFDM I don't feel any hatred towards El Indio, I can only feel the overwhelming sadness of the life he's chosen. Leone is at his best when he puts you inside a character's head, where you're no longer free to judge them. Hence the way we see the same issues dealt with in the many different characters created.

But anyway, as to West, I think it has the perfect match of existential analysis as well as well-rounded, self-conscious and minimalist story-telling. It is as close to perfect as I think its possible to be.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: threedusters on June 20, 2004, 09:59:23 PM
Wonderful taste. if you don't mind me saying so!, ah, how i miss Blackadders quib's, being an englishman living in Chicago now.  How the hell someone who is a fan of Leone's can be an "x file", is beyond my comprehension.   My favorite scene from OUTTW?, just after the massacre of the family, when the kid runs out(or should i say "when the camera runs out", to be confronted by evil incarnate...............sigh.  Wonder what gave him the idea to use the camera like that.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Dlanor on June 21, 2004, 04:16:18 AM
 Yeah , terrible scene.  OUATITW are full of scene like this one wich speak directly to the soul.
  It's a real masterpiece, everything is controlled.Yeah the best fim ever made, for me , because no other film did so great effect on me than this one. Wich is very great is that each scene can been taken independantly and produce effects, but although the movie as a whole is a perfectly coherent entity.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Groggy on June 21, 2004, 04:37:25 PM
Wonderful taste. if you don't mind me saying so!, ah, how i miss Blackadders quib's, being an englishman living in Chicago now.  How the hell someone who is a fan of Leone's can be an "x file", is beyond my comprehension.   My favorite scene from OUTTW?, just after the massacre of the family, when the kid runs out(or should i say "when the camera runs out", to be confronted by evil incarnate...............sigh.  Wonder what gave him the idea to use the camera like that.

It's just one of those things, pal.  I'm also a Wingnut, in case you're wondering.  :P


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: threedusters on June 23, 2004, 09:50:08 PM
It's just one of those things, pal.  I'm also a Wingnut, in case you're wondering.  :P
.    "Wingnut"!!, correct me if im'e wrong, but isn't that a piece of metal that screws onto a bolt, or screw?.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Groggy on June 24, 2004, 06:00:31 AM
.    "Wingnut"!!, correct me if im'e wrong, but isn't that a piece of metal that screws onto a bolt, or screw?.

Yes sir.  That's the generally excepted definition.

In case no one else helps you out, see:
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0200276/


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Rat on July 03, 2004, 07:15:55 PM
The 3 greatest films ever made:

1. RAN
2. TAXI DRIVER
3. THE AMERICAN FRIEND


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: grandpa_chum on July 04, 2004, 01:36:29 PM
I just want to make a quick comment on the notion that OUATIW doesn't have an adequate story. First off i think it does, but i won't go into that because of my second point. THE STORY DOESN"T MATTER! it's all about the storyteller, tell me which you'd enjoy more... robin williams telling the story of little red riding hood, or some dolt reading moby dick. now we all agree that moby dick is a more complex story but i guess my point is that cinema is about storytelling not the story, if it were about the story it'd be a book.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Thosefalsenotes on July 13, 2004, 09:33:01 PM
Correct. OUATITW is perfect. It's interesting but before seeing it my point of view was probably rather close to Visitor's. It revolutionized the way I look at movies. If you want a great story, if you want to explore the deepest meaning of humanity, read a book. As far as movies go, for me OUATITW uses the medium to its fullest potential. Every frame is a work of art, every scene is perfect. So my appreciation of "deep" movies has suffered, but I find my new perspective refreshing.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: littlelondon on July 22, 2004, 01:52:37 PM
My favourite part of the film...I think it's the final duel between Harmonica and Frank,which is also the best duel of all the movie duels.The time stands still,as the music plays and Leone takes those extreme close-ups of the characters faces.I've watched this part of the film several times,and it has a huge impact on me every single time I see it.

I second that.  I was barely getting over the shock of the scene explaining Frank's crime, when the shootout is over without a warning, and in an instant.  That flashback was sick, about as nasty as anything I ever saw on film, and while you struggle to comprehend that, you're hit with the shootout.  As good as it will ever get, one of THE grade A moments of film history.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Belkin on July 24, 2004, 12:44:35 PM
 sometime sit down and watch the original version of "the haunting" .
Kermit, I have to agree, THE HAUNTING (original) is stunning and (no pun intended) haunting! ::)


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Jupa on December 28, 2004, 07:41:49 AM
As good as it will ever get, one of THE grade A moments of film history.

Absolutely. The final duel is one the the greatest moments in the history of the movie.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: roberti on April 10, 2006, 11:21:43 AM
I think it is one of the best movies ever made. It is very difficult to tell this movie is the best: for you probably, but not necessary for this other one who thinks that it is, may be, once upon a time in america, or this other one who is convinced that it is Apocalypse Now for example. And it is not possible to say to those people you are wrong and I am right!

But if suddenly somebody is telling that Mary POPPINS is the greatest may be we could advise this people to think a little bit more about it!


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: franksgrandson on April 10, 2006, 07:14:40 PM
Once upon a Time in the West is without doubt the best movie ever made but it is a close run thing with the Good the bad and the ugly and although its fun to speculate on changes in actors ect if that had been the case the films would have in all probability been just good films, There was for West a spark of somthing between the actors and actress that makes the film come alive the same with GBU, I read somewhere that when filming the shoot out at the end Van Cleef was in a daze telling Leone that he could take Clint out


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Firecracker on April 10, 2006, 07:20:28 PM
I read somewhere that when filming the shoot out at the end Van Cleef was in a daze telling Leone that he could take Clint out
I would love to get my hands on that article or interview.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: franksgrandson on April 10, 2006, 07:29:04 PM
the bit was in a Eastwood westerns book I got from the Library will pop back and try to find it again it had a great description of the filming of the gunfight Cleef saying that he knew when filming it that it was the ultimate western quick draw.
And if you look at the film Clint is Clint real cool but Wallach and Cleef are really into it.
You get the same feeling watching Bronson and Fonda its like they knew that this one film was going to be the benchmark for all other westerns, in my opinion no other Western has come close since.
Oh and by the way I know John Wayne made coment about High Plains Drifter but did he ever say a word about West and GBU I would think he was shaking in his boots to see such great Westerns that did not include him


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: roberti on April 11, 2006, 07:32:24 AM
Eastwood, Wallach and Van Cleef were supposed to be the 3 bad guys at the beginning of Once Upon a Time in thge West, but Eastwood and Van Cleef refused.(quoted from Conversation avec Sergio Leone, Noel Simsolo)


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Fuzzyboots on April 29, 2006, 07:48:11 PM
I don't think it's the best movie ever made, or even the best Leone western. I still consider TGTBATU to be better. The West still has plenty of merits, I just wish the first hour went faster


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Firecracker on April 29, 2006, 08:13:46 PM
I just wish the first hour went faster

what? the first hour is the best part of the movie. From the three gunmen waiting for Harmonica to when Jill gets to the ranch is brilliant. The dreary second act(when the plot gets going) is what needs to be cut a bit, so It can move faster.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Peacemaker on April 29, 2006, 09:19:46 PM
OUATITW is my favorite film of all time. It got me into westerns, film, and Sergio Leone and I wouldn't change a thing about it...except replace Jack, Woody, and Al with Clint, Lee, and Eli.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Firecracker on April 29, 2006, 09:21:38 PM
except replace Jack, Woody, and Al with Clint, Lee, and Eli.

No way. They would be way out of place.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Peacemaker on April 29, 2006, 09:23:18 PM
I wanted to see that. It's an ironic way of stating that the Dollars Trilogy has been killed off.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Firecracker on April 29, 2006, 09:25:34 PM
I wanted to see that. It's an ironic way of stating that the Dollars Trilogy has been killed off.

But it would just take you out of the movie if you had seen the previous Trilogy. I never liked the idea of Lee, Clint and Eli waiting for Harmonica since I first heard it. It just seems like they would stand out way to much and be to distracting.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Peacemaker on April 29, 2006, 09:27:28 PM
That's very true. It's just a fun idea. Just like John Wayne or Jimmy Stewart as Frank. Henry Fonda IS Frank but it's still fun to think of what kind of shock Wayne or Stewart would get.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Firecracker on April 29, 2006, 09:29:39 PM
That's very true. It's just a fun idea. Just like John Wayne or Jimmy Stewart as Frank. Henry Fonda IS Frank but it's still fun to think of what kind of shock Wayne or Stewart would get.

Wayne I am sure would have been awful(sorry). I can just imagine him acting like a drunk Frank, since every role I have seen him in he seems like he had a couple of swigs before he walked on set.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: cigar joe on April 29, 2006, 09:50:07 PM
Well Eli Clint & Lee would probably have looked completely different than their previous incarnations so it would have been interesting at least.

Think of the possibilities.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Firecracker on April 29, 2006, 09:53:41 PM


Think of the possibilities.

I only see Eli, Lee and Clint with dusters on. Not much of a difference.

Who do ya figure would be where?
Like what position would Clint be in?

If this actually took place and the trio were used I think Clint would have had Elam's part, Lee would have had Woody Strode's part and Eli would get Muloch's role.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Peacemaker on April 29, 2006, 09:56:09 PM
Clint playing with a fly, Lee drinking water, and Eli cracking his knuckles. Sounds interesting.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Firecracker on April 29, 2006, 09:58:44 PM
Clint playing with a fly, Lee drinking water, and Eli cracking his knuckles. Sounds interesting.

I have thought of it before and it always seemed like that would have been it, to me.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Firecracker on April 29, 2006, 10:02:57 PM
come to think of it Eli would have been a strong candidate for the fly gag. He makes really good funny faces which would have made the gag all the more memorable. That would leave Clint with cracking his Knuckles. Nobody can take away Lee Van Cleef for the water gag.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Peacemaker on April 29, 2006, 10:07:34 PM
Eli Wallach would make the fly sequence stand out even more.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: titoli on April 29, 2006, 10:15:29 PM
It wouldn't have stood to reason: how anybody on earth can take Eastwood, Cleef and Tuco at the same time? I think Clint saw into it and refused. And I don't think Leone thought for a minute that Eastwood would have accepted. So he made the proposal just to tease him.
Now, I like the three who got the part. And Frank "is" Fonda. The only piece of miscasting (but I know I'm all alone there) is Cardinale.  Let's come up with some alternative there.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Firecracker on April 29, 2006, 10:17:38 PM
† Let's come up with some alternative there.

Thats interesting. Why do you think she was miscast Titoli?

and everybody else: want to try a hand in picking out some other actress to play Jill? I know I have no problem with the original.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: cigar joe on April 29, 2006, 10:59:05 PM
Quote
and everybody else: want to try a hand in picking out some other actress to play Jill? I know I have no problem with the original.


Ok lets see, a high class hooker from New Orleans....

Brigitte Bardo
Capuchine
Ursula Andress
Elke Sommer
Monica Viti
Mariangela Melato
Ornella Muti


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Firecracker on April 29, 2006, 10:59:53 PM


Ok lets see, a high class hooker from New Orleans....

Brigitte Bardo
Capuchine
Ursula Andress
Elke Sommer
Monica Viti
Mariangela Melato
Ornella Muti



Britt Ekland perhaps?


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: cigar joe on April 29, 2006, 11:01:20 PM
yea Britt too


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Firecracker on April 29, 2006, 11:03:21 PM
yea Britt too
even though she cant act. ;D


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Le Bon on April 30, 2006, 05:49:44 AM
Daliah Lavi...from Casino Royale, Jules Vernes Rocket to the Moon, The Spy with the Cold Nose and one of the Shatterhand or Winnetou films i think.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Banjo on April 30, 2006, 05:57:00 AM
what? the first hour is the best part of the movie. From the three gunmen waiting for Harmonica to when Jill gets to the ranch is brilliant. The dreary second act(when the plot gets going) is what needs to be cut a bit, so It can move faster.
Yeah Hughes isn't too far from the truth with the overlong and over indulgent comments for everything after gbu.The Dollar trilogy is concentrated excellence-what came afterwards is diluted but still brilliant in parts!


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Banjo on April 30, 2006, 05:59:52 AM
I only see Eli, Lee and Clint with dusters on. Not much of a difference.
Very bad idea-i wudda looked like a cheap trick!


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Banjo on April 30, 2006, 06:05:34 AM
It wouldn't have stood to reason: how anybody on earth can take Eastwood, Cleef and Tuco at the same time? I think Clint saw into it and refused. And I don't think Leone thought for a minute that Eastwood would have accepted. So he made the proposal just to tease him.
Now, I like the three who got the part. And Frank "is" Fonda. The only piece of miscasting (but I know I'm all alone there) is Cardinale.† Let's come up with some alternative there.
Yeah and it woud've been totally unoriginal as Enzo Castelari had already pulled this trick in Any Gun Can Play? where George Hilton guns down Manco,Mortimer and Django in one fell swoop in the intro.
Elam,Strode and Mulock were so perfect because the opening scenes seems to be the generally accepted highlight of the movie apart from the ending of course!


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Banjo on April 30, 2006, 06:07:03 AM
Thats interesting. Why do you think she was miscast Titoli?

and everybody else: want to try a hand in picking out some other actress to play Jill? I know I have no problem with the original.
I'm intrigued to know why too?


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: titoli on April 30, 2006, 04:31:51 PM
She's not enough vulgar for a N.O.'s hooker. Now, I don't mean she should have been played by Shelley Winters (God forbid!), but sure, BB would have looked more the part. Or Raquel Welch. An actress with a more blatant sexuality, anyway.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: dave jenkins on April 30, 2006, 04:45:42 PM
I don't think we want vulgarity in our female lead. She's not supposed to be a real hooker. She's supposed to be The Archetypal Tart With a Heart Who Really Wants to be a Good Girl and Marry the Hero. And Cardinale fits that role to a "T."


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: titoli on April 30, 2006, 05:02:38 PM
Quote
I don't think we want vulgarity in our female lead.


Who's "we"?

Quote
She's not supposed to be a real hooker.


Uh? Ah, yeah, you're being ironic...

Quote
She's supposed to be The Archetypal Tart With a Heart


We're back to base.

Quote
Who Really Wants to be a Good Girl and Marry the Hero

What movie are you talking of? Oh, you're being ironic again...


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Peacemaker on April 30, 2006, 05:11:17 PM


Who's "we"?
 

Uh? Ah, yeah, you're being ironic...
 

We're back to base.

What movie are you talking of? Oh, you're being ironic again...

Take it easy Titoli, everyone has thier own opinion!


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: titoli on April 30, 2006, 07:18:15 PM
I'm being ironic too, referee!


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: cigar joe on April 30, 2006, 07:26:47 PM
lol ;D


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Peacemaker on April 30, 2006, 08:25:20 PM
I'm being ironic too, referee!

Sorry.  :-[


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Firecracker on April 30, 2006, 09:43:39 PM
Very bad idea-i wudda looked like a cheap trick!

I agree with you.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Banjo on May 02, 2006, 04:10:45 PM
She's not enough vulgar for a N.O.'s hooker. Now, I don't mean she should have been played by Shelley Winters (God forbid!), but sure, BB would have looked more the part. Or Raquel Welch. An actress with a more blatant sexuality, anyway.
I'm sure that had Jill† been "vulgar" this wouldn't have suited the storyline-i don't necessarily think all whores have to be vulgar and maybe Jill was a victim of circumstance and following her marriage to McBain maybe all she wanted to do was put this sordid bit of her past behind her.Had she been at all outwardly vulgar† Cheyenne would never had fallen for her charms.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Banjo on May 03, 2006, 06:35:55 AM
And nor for that matter Brett McBain.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: titoli on May 03, 2006, 07:56:37 AM
Quote
I'm sure that had Jill  been "vulgar" this wouldn't have suited the storyline-i don't necessarily think all whores have to be vulgar and maybe Jill was a victim of circumstance and following her marriage to McBain maybe all she wanted to do was put this sordid bit of her past behind her.

She surely wanted to forget her past, but the motives behind her actions are not at all  innocent. Marrying McBain is a way out of her trade but, mostly, to riches. Just consider her reaction to the frightful fate occurred to her bridegroom and his family: she doesn't shed a tear for McBain and is suddenly busy finding what McBain had spoken to her about that would make him a rich man. She has married a rich man, surely not a man who would simply take her out of the brothel.

Quote
Had she been at all outwardly vulgar  Cheyenne would never had fallen for her charms.
]

Well, I don't think that Cheyenne (or anybody), in front of BB or Racquel Welch (my idea of vulgarity) would have remained indifferent.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Banjo on May 05, 2006, 07:21:42 PM
She surely wanted to forget her past, but the motives behind her actions are not at all† innocent. Marrying McBain is a way out of her trade but, mostly, to riches. Just consider her reaction to the frightful fate occurred to her bridegroom and his family: she doesn't shed a tear for McBain and is suddenly busy finding what McBain had spoken to her about that would make him a rich man. She has married a rich man, surely not a man who would simply take her out of the brothel.
]

Well, I don't think that Cheyenne (or anybody), in front of BB or Racquel Welch (my idea of vulgarity) would have remained indifferent.
An opportunist maybe,but not vulgar.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: titoli on May 06, 2006, 11:41:48 AM
I think that the character's background should have found a way to come to the fore more evidently. Even though I realize that the problem is with CC sex image: I just can't imagine her being a prostitute in a brothel because she looks to me like being indifferent to sex (though, of course,in her private life she may be a maneater). Sure, you can be forced to be a whore and do it against your will. But it doesn't seem to be the case with her opportunist attitude. So the solution should have been found in the screenplay or in the casting. But, as usual when the talk is about CC, I'm all alone.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Banjo on May 06, 2006, 07:01:41 PM
Well judging by her performance with David Niven on Pink Panther(very flirty) and Palances husband cheating woman in The Professionals i think CC could turn on the sexy/hussy performance if needed!


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: titoli on May 06, 2006, 11:20:40 PM
I have seen both movies, but I didn't remember her in The Professionals until it was mentioned here some time ago. 


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: SeanSeanSean on May 07, 2006, 05:36:53 AM
One of the best movies ever?...I'd say yes:
One way to judge a movie's lasting appeal is it's capacity to attrack new fans as the years go by.
Loaned my DVD to a friend recently and his 17 year old got hooked on it. He watched it at least 4 times within a week.
Leone's attention to detail, the engrossing story and the fact that the film is set in the 1880's make it timeless and probably will remain a classic for a long time to come.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: franksgrandson on May 07, 2006, 04:54:00 PM
I do not think Once Upon A Time in the West will ever go out of favour as each generation comes along and watches and gets caught up in the Western genere there is somthing not quite right about the Hollywood version of the west then a lot of people quite by accident stumble accross Leone and the magic of how he was able to put into picture what we all thought the west to be, a dirty sweaty place where man lied cheated killed raped and doubl crossed to make a living.
The first film I ever sat down and watched properly was the Good The Bad and the Ugly my mother let me stay up one night when I was about 10 and watch it with her I do not think my eyes ever left the screen for the whole showing and to me it was the ultimate movie then I caught fistful and FOFDM and was enchanted by them, but it was only when I was 15 or so that I saw Once Upon ATime in the West, I was utterly staggered this was the west as the way it was and so much in the film fitted in with the way I was as a teenage how I was feeling and the attitudes I felt Harmonica seemed to resonate on the same level as my moods at the time.
A year later the full length version was released in Uk for first time and I went to every afternoon screening at Leicester square Odeon on the run.
even now after all these years I never tire of watching this movie in fact its like a old wine getting better with age and as you get older so you see different things in the movie, well not different but you look at the film with a older persons eye and look at it totally different to what you did in your twenties.
One thing for sure when I die the theme will be the only music to send me off.
And the next generation of fans are already here my daughter is big time into it and around the house we can actually take a part and talk the script though, lots of fun when you are wrapping it round the things you do in life


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Peacemaker on May 07, 2006, 07:56:50 PM
That's funny, Ennio played that song at Leone's funeral.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: SeanSeanSean on May 08, 2006, 08:29:01 PM
That's funny, Ennio played that song at Leone's funeral.
Are you sure about that? I read Ennio played Giý la testa, great theme also. But then again he may have played both.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Firecracker on May 08, 2006, 09:54:53 PM
Are you sure about that? I read Ennio played Giý la testa, great theme also. But then again he may have played both.

It would make more sense that he played "Giu La Testa" since the title theme is more melancholy than the other mentioned.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: titoli on May 09, 2006, 04:42:43 PM
Quote
...and the fact that the film is set in the 1880's make it timeless

How setting it in the 1870's or 1890's would make a difference?


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Peacemaker on May 09, 2006, 05:02:14 PM
It would make more sense that he played "Giu La Testa" since the title theme is more melancholy than the other mentioned.

Both pieces are pretty meloncholy. You're right about Giu La Testa, that is a very melancholy song but the OUATITW is more apropriate for Leone's funeral.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: SeanSeanSean on May 10, 2006, 10:00:41 PM
How setting it in the 1870's or 1890's would make a difference?
A film shot in the past with so much attention to details as in this film, keeps it's relevance whether it is seen in 1969 or 2069. IMHO.
For example: I love the film Serpico (circa 1973) but you can't help but see it as dated (the cars, the fashions, etc...) even though the story remains relevant.
OUATITW is by definition a story of the past, even when it was first shown so it will never age. That's why it is timeless.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: cigar joe on May 10, 2006, 10:51:50 PM
I get a kick seeing old cordless phones in films from the 70's they are huge & look like walkie-talkies, lol.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: The Peacemaker on May 11, 2006, 08:46:32 PM
I get a kick seeing old cordless phones in films from the 70's they are huge & look like walkie-talkies, lol.

It's amazing how so much has changed in so little of time.


Title: Re:The best movie ever made...
Post by: Mw/NNrules on October 25, 2007, 06:36:42 PM
It is indeed a great film. But I tend to think GBU is a better over all film. Maybe it is the pacing or the story and the fact that Tuco steals the film. I am also partial towards Eastwood and would have liked to have seen him as Harmonica. Anyway, still a cool flick, even with Bronson.
I agree. GBU moves faster for me.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: dave jenkins on October 25, 2007, 06:41:06 PM
A film shot in the past with so much attention to details as in this film, keeps it's relevance whether it is seen in 1969 or 2069. IMHO.
For example: I love the film Serpico (circa 1973) but you can't help but see it as dated (the cars, the fashions, etc...) even though the story remains relevant.
OUATITW is by definition a story of the past, even when it was first shown so it will never age. That's why it is timeless.
Jill's hair, however, does date the film: a definite 60s 'do.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: PowerRR on October 25, 2007, 08:00:24 PM
It's on my Top 5, and certainly the best western ever made.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Whalestoe on October 26, 2007, 03:15:29 AM
I consider it one of the best movies ever made; so yes.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: noodles_leone on March 09, 2015, 10:25:45 AM
Then again, there are a LOT of popular and/or "Classic" films that I find overrated: "Lawrence of Arabia"

I'm not sure how I ended up re-reading this old thread but right now my world is shattering.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Groggy on March 09, 2015, 05:56:28 PM
That Groggy, what an idiot.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: stanton on March 10, 2015, 03:27:59 AM
Well, Lawrence has its share of flaws.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: noodles_leone on March 10, 2015, 03:45:44 AM
Well, Lawrence has its share of flaws.

I knew that. I didn't know, however, that Groggy had his share of flaws too.  :'(
(he doesn't mention the soundtrack in his reviews so there is that)


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: stanton on March 10, 2015, 03:48:29 AM
I knew that. I didn't know, however, that Groggy had his share of flaws too.  :'(
(he doesn't mention the soundtrack in his reviews so there is that)

Yes, but I wanted to console him a little bit in his legitimated grief ...


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: dave jenkins on March 10, 2015, 11:53:43 AM
LoA is the greatest film ever made. But then, so is Rear Window, GBU, 2001, That Obscure Object of Desire, each of Ozu's last 6 movies.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Cusser on March 19, 2015, 12:40:21 PM
And Maureen McBain (Simonetta Santaniello) and Timmy McBain (Enzo Santaniello) were real-life sister and brother !!!


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: cigar joe on March 19, 2015, 04:48:54 PM
And Maureen McBain (Simonetta Santaniello) and Timmy McBain (Enzo Santaniello) were real-life sister and brother !!!

cool


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Moorman on February 24, 2017, 01:29:36 PM
It is indeed a great film. But I tend to think GBU is a better over all film. Maybe it is the pacing or the story and the fact that Tuco steals the film. I am also partial towards Eastwood and would have liked to have seen him as Harmonica. Anyway, still a cool flick, even with Bronson.

Once Upon a Time in the West is a better movie...


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: dave jenkins on February 24, 2017, 04:31:42 PM
And Maureen McBain (Simonetta Santaniello) and Timmy McBain (Enzo Santaniello) were real-life sister and brother !!!
But that's, that's . . . man, that's incest! :o


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Cusser on February 25, 2017, 07:41:49 AM
And Maureen McBain (Simonetta Santaniello) and Timmy McBain (Enzo Santaniello) were real-life sister and brother !!!

And more trivia: Simonetta Santaniello is best known for being Michael's Italian wife in Godfather; she got blown up in the car explosion.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: titoli on February 25, 2017, 08:26:44 AM
And more trivia: Simonetta Santaniello is best known for being Michael's Italian wife in Godfather; she got blown up in the car explosion.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0824940/

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1306436/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: dave jenkins on February 25, 2017, 08:47:51 AM
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0824940/

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1306436/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1
But that's, that's . . . man, that's doppelganger-ing!


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Dust Devil on February 25, 2017, 01:02:47 PM
But that's, that's . . . man, that's incest! :o

 ???


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: titoli on February 25, 2017, 03:40:36 PM
But that's, that's . . . man, that's doppelganger-ing!

No, that's short-sightedness.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: titoli on February 25, 2017, 04:22:13 PM
But maybe Placido's ex-wife was Benito's sister. I mean not Mussolini.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Novecento on February 26, 2017, 10:36:25 AM
In my opinion,Once Upon a Time in the West is not only the best western but also the best movie ever....

Out of all the movies I've seen, I think I'd agree with that.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Usaviator on July 22, 2017, 02:41:08 AM
I am new to SL films, and spaghetti westerns in general.  I've only seen a handful of other modern westerns.  Whenever I heard the term spaghetti western, I thought of old John Wayne style movies.  I've never seen through a whole John Wayne 1950s style American western, so maybe I'm not being fair, but they strike me as very boring and ridiculous.  Kind of like a cliche happy-go-lucky film where people sing cheesy songs and the good guy always wins and rides off into the sunset at the end of the film.

Boy did OUATITW change my expectations around.  It was nothing like I had expected.  I'm in my early 30s and I get why a lot of people my age can't stomach a movie like this.  The long drawn out scenes seem to have too little stimulation for most movie watchers these days and their patience is challenged beyond their limit.  But I found the scenes to be very fascinating and intense, and the long drawn out pauses bring my imagination to life an really make the gears in my mind start turning.  Also the movies totally have an artistic side like I had never expected from a spaghetti western.  The script is amazing in particular to me.  Every line seems to pack a punch that hits you right in the feels, but nothing like the cheesy one-liners you find in comic-book based movies.  The cinematography and movie set is absolutely top notch, even for these days in filming.  There seems to be nothing present in any scene of this movie that makes you think this is just a movie set and not the real wild west.  The story line is touching, poignant, mysterious at times, and even prophetic.  SL nails it with the snapshot of these characters during the time span of the film and keeps you on the edge of your seat trying to figure out what led the characters to these points during the film.  And last but not least, Claudia Cardinale is friggin beautiful.   She is the perfect personification of the good life that survives out of the brutality of the old west. 

I've seen OUATITW 3 times so far, and I plan on seeing it many more times.  I can see how it could be a hard argument to say it is the best film ever made, but when I first saw it, it broke all my expectations of it and made me really appreciate it.  Now on watch number 3, it has catapulted itself into what will probably be my personal favorite movie.  I have seen TGTBatU and FoD, and although I liked them, they cant seem to compare with OUATITW.  It's possible that my opinion will change and maybe I will see a movie I think is better, but this movie definitely has a special place in my heart.  Even my 18 mo old son seems to have an appreciation for this. He loves the opening scene with the whiny windmill pump, and the ticker machine.  He seems to really pick up on the intensity of the drawn out scenes and the many sound effects used in the film. 


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: titoli on July 22, 2017, 03:03:31 AM
I am new to SL films, and spaghetti westerns in general.  I've only seen a handful of other modern westerns.  Whenever I heard the term spaghetti western, I thought of old John Wayne style movies.  I've never seen through a whole John Wayne 1950s style American western, so maybe I'm not being fair, but they strike me as very boring and ridiculous. 

Boy did OUATITW change my expectations around.  It was nothing like I had expected. 

That makes me wonder 1) how did you make the connection spaghetti-John Wayne. I never saw a picture of Wayne eating spaghetti (maybe it does exist, though) but still I can't figure out what was (and is) your conception of spaghetti western before (and after) watching Leone's movies. BTW, I assume you haven't seen yet For a Few Dollars More and Duck You Sucker. What are you waiting for? 2) Have you watched The Searchers and The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance? 3) How did you ever come to watch Leone's movies at all, as you seem not to have a particular interest for westerns, let alone spaghetti westerns? 4) In your messages you never mention Morricone.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: stanton on July 22, 2017, 05:12:45 AM
I am new to SL films, and spaghetti westerns in general.  I've only seen a handful of other modern westerns.  Whenever I heard the term spaghetti western, I thought of old John Wayne style movies.  I've never seen through a whole John Wayne 1950s style American western, so maybe I'm not being fair, but they strike me as very boring and ridiculous.  Kind of like a cliche happy-go-lucky film where people sing cheesy songs and the good guy always wins and rides off into the sunset at the end of the film.
 

Actually, such films exist, many westerns are quite simple, but many westerns surely not like that, even many Wayne westerns are not like that. And especially westerns made after 1960 are often not that simple.

On the other hand the spaghetti western hero also always wins. With only a few exceptions, but in Us westerns the protagonists also do not always win.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Usaviator on July 22, 2017, 04:18:20 PM
That makes me wonder 1) how did you make the connection spaghetti-John Wayne. I never saw a picture of Wayne eating spaghetti (maybe it does exist, though) but still I can't figure out what was (and is) your conception of spaghetti western before (and after) watching Leone's movies. BTW, I assume you haven't seen yet For a Few Dollars More and Duck You Sucker. What are you waiting for? 2) Have you watched The Searchers and The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance? 3) How did you ever come to watch Leone's movies at all, as you seem not to have a particular interest for westerns, let alone spaghetti westerns? 4) In your messages you never mention Morricone.

Ugh. Forgive me. I totally forgot about Morricone. I have been a fan of Morricone before even watching spaghetti westerns.  Yes, the soundtrack is another major element of the films.  I made the spaghetti western connection to John Wayne mainly cause I'm just a youngster, and although I do watch many classic movies that span well before my time and even my parent's time, westerns wasn't something I ever got into earlier.  I just looked at old westerns as old westerns.  I know there is some overlap between the John Wayne era and Spaghetti westerns, but I didn't really know how to differentiate between them because I knew very little about them, the time frame, and where they came from.  I have not seen FAFDM or DYS yet.  I'm trying not to watch too many of his movies once after the other.  These are not movies I can just watch and overlap with something else. They're quite a mouthful to chew on and I'd rather take some time and think on them and maybe watch them again before watching too many others.  I have not seen the Searchers or the Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, but I have heard many good things of them and are open to giving them a shot.  I came to watch SL's movies because OUATITW was on Netflix and I figured I'd give it a try.  At this point in life, I'm not particularly into westerns, but I have been paying more attention to them and watching more that I find on Netflix or other streaming channels.  I also have a personal collection of movies with some classic westerns I need to check out.  I saw Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid a couple years back and I enjoyed that as I do most Redford and/or Newman movies.  I also saw the 2004 film Blueberry, which I really liked despite it's poor-to-mediocre critic rating.  So yeah, that's where I am with westerns. 


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: cigar joe on July 22, 2017, 05:17:07 PM
Ugh. Forgive me. I totally forgot about Morricone. I have been a fan of Morricone before even watching spaghetti westerns.  Yes, the soundtrack is another major element of the films.  I made the spaghetti western connection to John Wayne mainly cause I'm just a youngster, and although I do watch many classic movies that span well before my time and even my parent's time, westerns wasn't something I ever got into earlier.  I just looked at old westerns as old westerns.  I know there is some overlap between the John Wayne era and Spaghetti westerns, but I didn't really know how to differentiate between them because I knew very little about them, the time frame, and where they came from.  I have not seen FAFDM or DYS yet.  I'm trying not to watch too many of his movies once after the other.  These are not movies I can just watch and overlap with something else. They're quite a mouthful to chew on and I'd rather take some time and think on them and maybe watch them again before watching too many others.  I have not seen the Searchers or the Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, but I have heard many good things of them and are open to giving them a shot.  I came to watch SL's movies because OUATITW was on Netflix and I figured I'd give it a try.  At this point in life, I'm not particularly into westerns, but I have been paying more attention to them and watching more that I find on Netflix or other streaming channels.  I also have a personal collection of movies with some classic westerns I need to check out.  I saw Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid a couple years back and I enjoyed that as I do most Redford and/or Newman movies.  I also saw the 2004 film Blueberry, which I really liked despite it's poor-to-mediocre critic rating.  So yeah, that's where I am with westerns. 

I liked Blueberry also. The reviews were mixed for it because the fans of the comics didn't think it measured up, but those that came to it cold turkey like me enjoyed the film.

Out of the 3,000 plus Classic Era American Westerns produced between 1939 and roughly 1981, there are only about 100 of them that are top notch. So 3% are really worth a shit, the rest are routine and formulaic.

Out of the 600 plus or minus Spaghetti Westerns produced only about 18 are top notch again that works out to 3%

What made Leone's films stand out for me was all those formulaic American Westerns that I saw in the theaters and on TV during the late 1950s and early 1960s. Leone's style, the storytelling, and Morricone's music upped it all a couple of notches.

What you should do is definitely not watch all Leone's Westerns at once, watch some of the average American Westerns, some of the good American Westerns and some of the crap American Westerns to get a good handle on them. Then you'll understand Leone's impact on the Genre.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Usaviator on July 22, 2017, 05:22:53 PM
Actually, such films exist, many westerns are quite simple, but many westerns surely not like that, even many Wayne westerns are not like that. And especially westerns made after 1960 are often not that simple.

On the other hand the spaghetti western hero also always wins. With only a few exceptions, but in Us westerns the protagonists also do not always win.

I think I may have worded my response a little off, but I feel this video describes well the differences in which I perceived between American Westerns and Spaghetti Westerns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFuQMP9sjV4


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Usaviator on July 22, 2017, 05:40:06 PM
Out of the 3,000 plus Classic Era American Westerns produced between 1939 and roughly 1981, there are only about 100 of them that are top notch. So 3% are really worth a shit, the rest are routine and formulaic.

Out of the 600 plus or minus Spaghetti Westerns produced only about 18 are top notch again that works out to 3%

What made Leone's films stand out for me was all those formulaic American Westerns that I saw in the theaters and on TV during the late 1950s and early 1960s. Leone's style, the storytelling, and Morricone's music upped it all a couple of notches.

What you should do is definitely not watch all Leone's Westerns at once, watch some of the average American Westerns, some of the good American Westerns and some of the crap American Westerns to get a good handle on them. Then you'll understand Leone's impact on the Genre.

Those are quite some numbers you got figured there.  They surprise me, but they don't at the same time. I guess it surprises me how many of those movies there actually are out there, but the percentage of great ones isn't a real shocker to me.  I'm very big into music, and that 3% or even lower is how I feel about the quality of the music I hear on the radio.   Honestly, I don't have a ton of time to check out that many movies.  I try to limit the movies I watch to those I think I would like or be interested in and/or those strongly recommended.  Idunno if I want to watch something that you're already telling me is going to be a crap movie.  But I am certainly open to checking out American westerns as well and would rather invest the time into something that has a good reputation.  I do keep hearing about the Searchers from several people and from what I have read, looks like something I may check out soon. 

I just can't say though how happy I am that I stumbled upon OUATITW.  Even without comparing it to other westerns of the time, it's an amazing stand-out movie that exceeds appreciation just within the western genre, but can totally introduce someone into the western genre who had no other appreciation for westerns before.  But as I said earlier, some people don't have the patience for that style of filming.  They need the quick switching camera angles from a Christopher Nolan style film.  That kind of filming drives me nuts. If it gets any faster, it's going to have a strobe light effect.  :o



Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: stanton on July 22, 2017, 06:52:25 PM
I think I may have worded my response a little off, but I feel this video describes well the differences in which I perceived between American Westerns and Spaghetti Westerns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFuQMP9sjV4

He he, don't trust this video. It's not that simple.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: cigar joe on July 22, 2017, 07:52:15 PM
I think I may have worded my response a little off, but I feel this video describes well the differences in which I perceived between American Westerns and Spaghetti Westerns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFuQMP9sjV4

Nice video  O0


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Usaviator on July 22, 2017, 11:54:14 PM
He he, don't trust this video. It's not that simple.

I didn't say I trusted any video, I said it described how I perceived it.  My perception of things could be just as skewed as anybody's.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Moorman on November 18, 2017, 01:23:42 PM
I got this movie SLIGHTLY behind what i consider the best movie ever made, The Night of the Hunter by Charles Laughton.   Its clearly to me, the best western ever made, and is just behind the movie i just mentioned as what i consider the best movie ever made. Once upon a time Is a GREAT movie. To me,  its waay better than The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.  Don't get me wrong, TGBATU is a great movie, but Once Upon a Time in the West is a SPECIAL movie...


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Moorman on November 19, 2017, 04:58:39 AM
It is indeed a great film. But I tend to think GBU is a better over all film. Maybe it is the pacing or the story and the fact that Tuco steals the film. I am also partial towards Eastwood and would have liked to have seen him as Harmonica. Anyway, still a cool flick, even with Bronson.
Pacing and Tuco ARE why I say Once is the better film.  The GBU dragged in numerous places. Tuco bordered on slapstick...


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: cigar joe on November 19, 2017, 05:02:42 AM
Pacing and Tuco ARE why I say Once is the better film.  The GBU dragged in numerous places. Tuco bordered on slapstick...

That's exactly what everyone who dislikes GBU always gives for a reason, I call it the Tuco Factor. Me I think he's great, if I'm in the mood for a serious Western I go OUATITW if not I choose GBU.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: dave jenkins on November 19, 2017, 06:46:30 AM
That's exactly what everyone who dislikes GBU always gives for a reason, I call it the Tuco Factor. Me I think he's great, if I'm in the mood for a serious Western I go OUATITW if not I choose GBU.
That's pretty much the way I roll, too. Which is why I've seen GBU about 10 times more than West.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: noodles_leone on November 19, 2017, 06:51:27 AM
From a technical standpoint, OUATITW is better than GBU but the difference isn't as great as between GBU and everything that came before. I think the difference isn't enough to differenciate the two movies for most people (it could be enough for me).

GBU is easier, lighter and funnier to watch.
OUATITW is more serious, ambitious and sad.

So it really depends on your mood. I have a strong preference for OUATITW because I have a thing for ambition and it talks to me on a deeper level (while the teenage nihilism of GBU is borderline ridiculous), but I've watched GBU more often.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Moorman on November 19, 2017, 08:37:53 AM
They are both fabulous movies, but GBU had too many instances where Leone wanted me to accept the implausible.  The scene were Blondie is rescued by the mortar fire.  The whole scenario where Angel Eyes suddenly pops up with RANK and RUNNING a prison camp. I didn't like the civil war angle of the movie at all and felt it padded down and dragged the movie.  Tuco is OK, but bordered on slapstick.  Again, GBU is a great movie. I just think that Once Upon a time is the more serious and plausible movie. If i was a professor giving a class to art or film making students, Once would be the movie i would use to teach...


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 19, 2017, 08:54:05 AM
They are both fabulous movies, but GBU had too many instances where Leone wanted me to accept the implausible.  The scene were Blondie is rescued by the mortar fire.  The whole scenario where Angel Eyes suddenly pops up with RANK and RUNNING a prison camp. I didn't like the civil war angle of the movie at all and felt it padded down and dragged the movie.  Tuco is OK, but bordered on slapstick.  Again, GBU is a great movie. I just think that Once Upon a time is the more serious and plausible movie. If i was a professor giving a class to art or film making students, Once would be the movie i would use to teach...

Angel Eyes doesnít merely ďpop upĒ running the prison camp in the long version - there Is an explanation at the ďfort sceneĒ: the Confederate soldier tells him that if Bill Carson is alive he would be at Betterville. This explains why Angel Eyes specifically enlists to work at Betterville. Assuming he had been an officer before the war, itís not implausible that he enlists and asks to be assigned to the prison camp.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: noodles_leone on November 19, 2017, 09:08:32 AM
Both films are 95% implausible to me ;D
But both also work in their own world. GBU is supposed to feel cartoonish.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Moorman on November 19, 2017, 10:02:36 AM
Angel Eyes doesnít merely ďpop upĒ running the prison camp in the long version - there Is an explanation at the ďfort sceneĒ: the Confederate soldier tells him that if Bill Carson is alive he would be at Betterville. This explains why Angel Eyes specifically enlists to work at Betterville. Assuming he had been an officer before the war, itís not implausible that he enlists and asks to be assigned to the prison camp.

Ok. I have to go back and rewatch that scene.  What about Blondie being rescued by the mortar fire? lol   I'm just kidding. Like i said, and noodles pointed out, GBU was intended to be more of a "fun" movie, whereas Once never, ever intended to be that way...


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 19, 2017, 06:44:59 PM
Ok. I have to go back and rewatch that scene.  What about Blondie being rescued by the mortar fire? lol   I'm just kidding. Like i said, and noodles pointed out, GBU was intended to be more of a "fun" movie, whereas Once never, ever intended to be that way...

The war keeps intefering/intervening on the adventures of the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly... that IS the story  :)


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: stanton on November 20, 2017, 03:15:51 AM
The war keeps intefering/intervening on the adventures of the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly... that IS the story  :)

No, that's a side aspect.

The treasure hunt and the cat and mouse games are the center of the film. I think it would have been an equally great film without the civil war parts.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Cusser on November 20, 2017, 06:13:16 AM
GBU had too many instances where Leone wanted me to accept the implausible.  The scene were Blondie is rescued by the mortar fire. 

I started a list once detailing where pure serendipity helped in GBU.  Above, for sure.  Stevens blurting out information about the hidden gold when Angel Eyes knew nothing about that.  The carriage in the dessert at the perfect time.  Tuco and Blondie being so close to Mission San Antonio.  Tuco and Blondie ending up in prison camp where Angel Eyes was.  Angel Eyes overhearing that Wallace had called out "Bill Carson".  Tuco who knew so much about guns (shop scene) couldn't get Wallace's pistol to work.  Tuco finding his way to the town where Blondie and Angel Eyes were.  Others as well....




The war keeps intefering/intervening on the adventures of the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly... that IS the story  :)

I first saw GBU when I was 15.  I didn't realize then that GBU is a huge anti-war film, one may gloss over that at first.  Leone definitely intended that.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: stanton on November 20, 2017, 06:29:36 AM
That's pretty much the way I roll, too. Which is why I've seen GBU about 10 times more than West.

For me probably the other way round.
OUTW belongs to the films I watched the most. Next to 2001, TWB, PG & BtK, Eight and a Half and a few more. GBU is of course close, and Leone's other westerns (of which I surely watched MNIN the most) are also featured pretty high on that unwritten list.

Peckinpah and Leone are always fun to watch ...


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 20, 2017, 08:16:37 AM
OUATITW is a heavy drama experience; for me, those  sorts of movies that require a big emotional commitment canít be viewed as often as those that are lighter, like GBU. I donít know if Iíd necessarily say that lighter movies are BETTER than heavier ones, but they can certainly be viewed more frequently.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 20, 2017, 08:17:59 AM

Peckinpah and Leone are always fun to watch ...

I agree with exactly 50% of your statement  ;)


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: stanton on November 20, 2017, 09:49:10 AM
OUATITW is a heavy drama experience; for me, those  sorts of movies that require a big emotional commitment canít be viewed as often as those that are lighter, like GBU. I donít know if Iíd necessarily say that lighter movies are BETTER than heavier ones, but they can certainly be viewed more frequently.

Nope, not for me.
OUTW is slightly more fun to watch than GBU, and OUTW and GBU are more fun to watch than the other Leones, cause they are better. Maybe they are better cause they are more fun. Whatever ...

Ohh, and 2001 is much more fun to watch than Star Wars. Just to give another extreme example how things work for me.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Moorman on November 20, 2017, 03:03:08 PM
I started a list once detailing where pure serendipity helped in GBU.  Above, for sure.  Stevens blurting out information about the hidden gold when Angel Eyes knew nothing about that.  The carriage in the dessert at the perfect time.  Tuco and Blondie being so close to Mission San Antonio.  Tuco and Blondie ending up in prison camp where Angel Eyes was.  Angel Eyes overhearing that Wallace had called out "Bill Carson".  Tuco who knew so much about guns (shop scene) couldn't get Wallace's pistol to work.  Tuco finding his way to the town where Blondie and Angel Eyes were.  Others as well....




I first saw GBU when I was 15.  I didn't realize then that GBU is a huge anti-war film, one may gloss over that at first.  Leone definitely intended that.

Thats a lot of implausable stuff, lol.  I think Leone couldn't shake the Italian way of making westerns in GBU.  Its kinda got a Sabata tone to it. Not nowhere as close as Sabata, but in the same ballpark.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: noodles_leone on November 20, 2017, 03:52:10 PM
Nope, not for me.
OUTW is slightly more fun to watch than GBU, and OUTW and GBU are more fun to watch than the other Leones, cause they are better. Maybe they are better cause they are more fun. Whatever ...

Ohh, and 2001 is much more fun to watch than Star Wars. Just to give another extreme example how things work for me.

Thatís a lot of implausible stuff, lol.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: cigar joe on November 20, 2017, 04:10:09 PM
Quote
I started a list once detailing where pure serendipity helped in GBU.  Above, for sure.  Stevens blurting out information about the hidden gold when Angel Eyes knew nothing about that.  The carriage in the dessert at the perfect time.  Tuco and Blondie being so close to Mission San Antonio.  Tuco and Blondie ending up in prison camp where Angel Eyes was.  Angel Eyes overhearing that Wallace had called out "Bill Carson".  Tuco who knew so much about guns (shop scene) couldn't get Wallace's pistol to work.  Tuco finding his way to the town where Blondie and Angel Eyes were.  Others as well....

Some of those aren't, If you saw the geography of GBU it would make sense that they are where they are, there is a whole timeline thread that explains all of it. For instance Wallace's revolver was damaged in the fall from the train the frame bent and the cylinder wouldn't turn, that's a far cry from saying he can't make it work.


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: stanton on November 21, 2017, 02:28:59 AM
Thatís a lot of implausible stuff, lol.

Not really.
When 2001 is for me more entertaining than Star Bores, and it definitely is, than it makes a lot of sense. 2001 is for me light entertainment, I can watch it every day, while I suffer imagining to watch Star Wars or even worse the Lord of the Rings films. Which are many people's idea of light entertainment, but surely not mine.

Actually there'a a lot of very deep sense behind these simple perceptions. ;)


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: Novecento on November 21, 2017, 10:49:10 AM
I agree with exactly 50% of your statement  ;)

What's your beef with Leone?  :)


Title: Re: The best movie ever made...
Post by: noodles_leone on November 21, 2017, 03:49:36 PM
Not really.
When 2001 is for me more entertaining than Star Bores, and it definitely is, than it makes a lot of sense. 2001 is for me light entertainment, I can watch it every day, while I suffer imagining to watch Star Wars or even worse the Lord of the Rings films. Which are many people's idea of light entertainment, but surely not mine.

Actually there'a a lot of very deep sense behind these simple perceptions. ;)

You make almost as little sense as Drink.