Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => For a Few Dollars More => Topic started by: Cusser on March 15, 2006, 12:57:44 PM

Title: Dumbest question ever...
Post by: Cusser on March 15, 2006, 12:57:44 PM
OK, I may have the dumbest FDM question ever...

How would one know when the musical chimes had actually stopped?  One wouldn't know whether an additional chime would sound, the only way would be that another chime never sounded, but how long - 3 seconds - 10 seconds - 25 minutes, so how could that "ever" be a fair gunfight (like any were really fair?) ?  Sure, maybe Indio or Mortimer would've known from experience that the cadence slowed down when ready to stop, but suppose 30 seconds after Indio shoots Robledo that another chime sounded: I'd bet Indio would've roared that famous laugh again, don't think he'd be sorry that the chimes were not actually completed !!!
Title: Re: Dumbest question ever...
Post by: whenthechimesend.. on March 15, 2006, 01:45:57 PM
OK, I may have the dumbest FDM question ever...

How would one know when the musical chimes had actually stopped?  One wouldn't know whether an additional chime would sound, the only way would be that another chime never sounded, but how long - 3 seconds - 10 seconds - 25 minutes, so how could that "ever" be a fair gunfight (like any were really fair?) ?  Sure, maybe Indio or Mortimer would've known from experience that the cadence slowed down when ready to stop, but suppose 30 seconds after Indio shoots Robledo that another chime sounded: I'd bet Indio would've roared that famous laugh again, don't think he'd be sorry that the chimes were not actually completed !!!

No question is dumb, Cusser! ;)

Probably, this musical pocket watch didn't play any chime after the music is over. Of course I can be wrong, as i've never seen one of those in my life, but by my guess those music watches usually don't play chimes after the proper music ends.
Title: Re: Dumbest question ever...
Post by: Cusser on March 15, 2006, 03:43:34 PM
That's what I mean - how would you know there weren't going to be any more chimes  - you wouldn't know, because the next chime could always be coming.....
Title: Re: Dumbest question ever...
Post by: cigar joe on March 15, 2006, 05:41:26 PM
Well as soon as you thought it was over you draw and shoot, is somebody going to yell "not fair, there was one more chime",  or "sorry", lol, I don't think so.

That's the whole point of it, it depends on the chime spring winding down, so it will get slower and slower and you take your chance. Both Indio and Mortimer were familiar with the watch.
Title: Re: Dumbest question ever...
Post by: dave jenkins on March 16, 2006, 12:12:18 AM
Both Indio and Mortimer were familiar with the watch.
That's an understatement if I've ever seen one. Of course, Indio is probably more familiar than Mortimer, since we see Indio obsessively listening to it, so he might have had a bit of an advantage. On the other hand, Mortimer strikes me as a guy who learns quickly: he may have only needed to hear the theme once to know when it ends.
Title: Re: Dumbest question ever...
Post by: cigar joe on March 16, 2006, 05:40:12 AM
Quote
That's an understatement if I've ever seen one

Lol, what I'm trying to say, and I didn't explain myself, I guess, is that the chimes and when they stop is a function of the chime spring.

I have an old grandmother clock, it has a wind key hole for the chime , and a seperate one for the time.
Its like a smaller version of a grandfather's clock it sits on a shelf or mantel. Its chimes depend on the amount of wind (tension) on the chime spring, which is independent of the time spring.

So Mortimer's & Indio's watches are similar in spring construction.

If you don't wind it exactly the same it will run down arbitrarily, (and you don't want to over wind it either, so you don't want to keep winding until you top out) so its never exactly the same), and not stop on any particular note in the chime. Normally what you do is as soon as you start to hear the chime slow you'll wind the chime spring up a couple of times. So if you let it play it will repeat it slower and slower until the strenght left in the spring is not enough to pluck one more note of chime.

So even if you are familiar with the watch and its chime, it never stops at a predictable note when it winds down.
Title: Re: Dumbest question ever...
Post by: nowhere man on March 21, 2006, 11:46:23 PM
and didnt indio reach for his gun just before the chime was about to end? would that not qualify as cheating as well. not that indio is a fair man.
Title: Re: Dumbest question ever...
Post by: cigar joe on March 22, 2006, 05:55:36 AM
Yea technically that would qualify as cheating, but this aint the Olympics. The timming between the notes gets slower and slower so as what you think is going to be the last note plucks you better draw.

But in a gunfight somebodys got to make that first move so......
Title: Re: Dumbest question ever...
Post by: cigar joe on March 22, 2006, 05:24:59 PM
First off, I think you could in theory design a music box that would play a tune for a fixed length of time and no longer: it wouldn't be very different from using clockwork mechanics to show time, which is all a watch is (or was then).  So it's possible that the watches always do play the tune for the same length of time.

Secondly, the two watches have had very different histories since they left Peter Lee Lawrence's and Rosemary Dexter's hands: Indio fools around with his alot and generally seems careless about his possessions; Mortimer seems to use his primarily as a timepiece, and is in general careful of his belongings.  Some people think the Colonel's watch, as wielded by Manco, sounds a bit diff. from Indio's: a bit faster and janglier.  That can be due to either how tightly a music box is wound or how carefully it's maintained: and even if Indio and Mortimer wind their respective watches very consistently when they want to hear the music, the fact that Manco's the one in the driver's seat means that neither of the enemies have an advantage, assuming the watches are designed the way Joe outlines.

Assuming the watches do have some kind of novelty feature that spins a cylinder (with the tune imprinted on it) for X number of seconds when that feature is turned on, then yes, Indio is technically cheating.  He's just, uh, not cheating fast enough ;)

The only stop feature for the chime is to close the lid on the watch, or if you don't want the chime let it run down and not wind it.

And you're right dd it should be just like a music box cylinder just way smaller.
Title: Re: Dumbest question ever...
Post by: cigar joe on March 23, 2006, 06:04:43 AM
I don't know either without sticking in the DVD but you could be right, then again if it had a fixed playtime it wouldn't run down unless you were almost out of spring tension, and It do seem that the tune keeps repeating until it runs out.

Quote
Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought both Indio and Mortimer check the time on their watches (flipping up the lid) without triggering the tune; if so the musical function has some kind of on/off switch independent of the lid.


It could be a button that you hold in while flipping the lid to stop the chime if you don't want it to play.... 8)
Title: Re: Dumbest question ever...
Post by: iceman on March 23, 2006, 06:49:03 PM
OK, I may have the dumbest FDM question ever...

How would one know when the musical chimes had actually stopped?  One wouldn't know whether an additional chime would sound, the only way would be that another chime never sounded, but how long - 3 seconds - 10 seconds - 25 minutes, so how could that "ever" be a fair gunfight (like any were really fair?) ?  Sure, maybe Indio or Mortimer would've known from experience that the cadence slowed down when ready to stop, but suppose 30 seconds after Indio shoots Robledo that another chime sounded: I'd bet Indio would've roared that famous laugh again, don't think he'd be sorry that the chimes were not actually completed !!!

Does anyone know if the original watch in the film ever played a chime of some kind, and whatever happened to them both after filming stopped. Did LVC do a runner with them both or was there ever only one watch. Cant remember if there is a scene where both watches are on screen, Maybe after the final shootout perhaps??????


ICE
Title: Re: Dumbest question ever...
Post by: iceman on March 26, 2006, 04:22:43 PM
I think Indio and Manco are briefly in the same shot, each holding one watch; plus I think you can see them both when Manco brings Mortimer the second one, after the duel.

Ok...but do the watches really play a tune or is it the Orchestra? In "real Life" there may have been a difference in Tone,speed, length etc of the tune, but this is a film and both watches sound identical, or are we theorising????????

ICE
Title: Re: Dumbest question ever...
Post by: cigar joe on March 26, 2006, 07:22:23 PM
theorising, it was all dubbed, so the chimes had to be dubbed also.

In real life supposedly same watchmaker, but doing a quick goolgle search found out that all "combs" and "teeth" were idividually hand made so no two would be quite the same.
Title: Re: Dumbest question ever...
Post by: Jill on July 24, 2007, 03:29:49 AM
Well, this watch thing is very interesting. The tempo and the loudity of the music is changing. I think it's adapting to his owner's state of mind. When Indio is under the influence of weed, the music is totally disintegrated... ;D
Title: Re: Dumbest question ever...
Post by: Tucumcari Bound on July 24, 2007, 07:00:02 AM
Well, this watch thing is very interesting. The tempo and the loudity of the music is changing. I think it's adapting to his owner's state of mind. When Indio is under the influence of weed, the music is totally disintegrated... ;D

hahahaha. I always thought the same thing while watching this. Wouldn't the chimes stop at the same time everytime? Wouldn't Indio know exactly when they stopped? I mean he played that thing over and over again, not that it mattered as we see in the result.
Title: Re: Dumbest question ever...
Post by: Jill on July 24, 2007, 10:27:15 AM
The watch is magical  ;D and he/she wants revenge, too...  >:D perhaps the ghost of the girl is in?
Poor Indio...

"Hey, this was louder last time... or faster... or I don't know... oh! my head! Nino, give me a joint!" ;D
Title: Re: Dumbest question ever...
Post by: cigar joe on July 24, 2007, 11:02:10 AM
Quote
I always thought the same thing while watching this. Wouldn't the chimes stop at the same time everytime? Wouldn't Indio know exactly when they stopped? I mean he played that thing over and over again, not that it mattered as we see in the result.


No it depends on how much you wind the chime spring, are you gnno wind it exactly the same every time, no. Usually there are seperate springs for chime & clock.
Title: Re: Dumbest question ever...
Post by: tokyorose on July 27, 2007, 05:03:27 PM
"The watch is magical   and he/she wants revenge, too...   perhaps the ghost of the girl is in?"

Oooh...creepy!  Canadian singer Loreena McKennitt sings a Scottish ballad called "The Bonny Swans" where the ghost of a murdered girl haunts a harp.

"They brought it to her father's hall
and there were the guests assembled all
they laid the harp upon a stone
and straight it began to play alone..."

What a marvellous idea.  The ghost of the girl in this film certainly does seem to haunt Indio and Mortimer and even Manco, by the end.
Title: The watches and sentimentality
Post by: MikeEzzo on August 29, 2007, 12:39:56 AM
Indio kills the man; rapes (and kills?
I can't remember; it's been a long time) the
girl, and gets one of the watches. Angel
Eyes already has the other one. Is this
correct?

Was this girl Angel Eyes' sister?
Girlfriend? Wife? Daughter? I can't remember
it ever being established what his relation was
to her, but it had to be deep or else he wouldn't
have spent the entire movie trying to avenger
her death.

Why does Indio get sentimental
every time he hears the watch?
He wished he hadn't killed her?
Seems unlikely given his miscreant
character. This was of course his Achilles' Heel -- his
one shred of humanity,
which, I suppose, had to exist in order for
his weakness to get him killed. But it's hard
to accept that a killer would get so teary
eyed; he had probably killed hundreds of
people. Why was this one so special?
Title: Re: Dumbest question ever...
Post by: Jill on August 29, 2007, 02:49:53 AM
That's a good question. :)

Angel Eyes? You meant Mortimer, didn't you? It's true, Angel Eyes has a pocket watch too... (just see The Triello scene), but our theory is that AE and Mortimer were twins.  >:D So AE is the girl's brother, too.

We didn't even know if Indio knew the girl before... 
Title: Re: Dumbest question ever...
Post by: cigar joe on August 29, 2007, 05:25:54 AM
Quote
Indio kills the man; rapes (and kills?
I can't remember; it's been a long time) the
girl, and gets one of the watches.


The girl, Mortimers sister kills herself while Indio is raping her. (there is no Angel Eyes in this film)

Quote
Angel
Eyes already has the other one. Is this
correct?

No, Angel Eyes is in GBU not FAFOD.

Quote
Was this girl Angel Eyes' sister?Girlfriend? Wife? Daughter? No, see above.I can't remember
it ever being established what his relation was
to her,


No again see above...... the girl is Mortimers sister

Quote
but it had to be deep or else he wouldn't
have spent the entire movie trying to avenger
her death.

Between brother & sister yes.

Quote
Why does Indio get sentimental
every time he hears the watch?

 Indio is an f-ing nut case, who's had a tremendously traumatic experience that obviously haunts him.

Quote
He wished he hadn't killed her?
Seems unlikely given his miscreant
character. This was of course his Achilles' Heel -- his
one shred of humanity,
which, I suppose, had to exist in order for
his weakness to get him killed. But it's hard
to accept that a killer would get so teary
eyed; he had probably killed hundreds of
people. Why was this one so special?

He didn't kill her, see above.