Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => Other Films => Topic started by: cigar joe on March 29, 2006, 06:28:25 AM



Title: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: cigar joe on March 29, 2006, 06:28:25 AM
Just got this in the mail yesterday, from Franco Cleef, poped it in and watched about 10 minutes, first impresions nice clean transfer, Kinsky's dubbing is good, he sounds like Santo from "A Bullet For The General" here, score nothing to shout about yet, and it looks like it was past the heyday of the big budget westerns, a clear give away is that it so far looks like it was all shot in a gravel pit. (which stands in pretty good for a desert looking landscape, no or very little vegetation, erroded slopes, etc., don't get me wrong, but you can spot the blast drill holes along the cuts every once in a while). I'll watch the whole film straight through and write a review soon.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Banjo on March 29, 2006, 08:54:52 AM
Thanks Cigar Joe,i'm intrigued to hear more about this obscure sw!


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: The Firecracker on March 29, 2006, 10:14:55 AM
I have heard mixed reviews about it for years now. Some love it, some hate it. I figured I would wait until a nice transfer came along to purchase it.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: cigar joe on March 29, 2006, 07:34:51 PM
Ok back to the film. Hunkered down in an easy chair I watched the film through just a few minutes ago, Gary Hamilton (Kinsky) is in a chain gang breaking rocks he gets pardonded and basically goes on the vengence trail after the Acombar family who double crossed him.

Antonio Margheriti directed this sort of genre fusion, Spaghetti Western/Suspence film. Its got almost a Gothic feel, with indian caves and interconnected mineshafts that have trap door opennings into various town buildings.  These grenre twists are probably some of the reasons the SW genre played out.

I get the feeling that these kind of films, to me anyway, seem to tend to dilute the iconography, and demthyologises the "fairy tail" that Leone gave to us with the Dollars Films and OUTITW. I suppose with the popularity of the SW genre and everybody trying to cash in these struggles to remain creative invariably lead to experimental films like this.

This is the first SW I've seen where the emphasis is really on the rifle a Winchester 73, rather than a pistol, Hamilton's Winchester is given to him by an old man at a shack near Gary's home town. So it sort of feels with the lower production values more like watching a very good in color, slightly over the top "The Rifleman" TV show rather than a film. Two thirds of the film takes place during a storm that approaches at sundown and blows into the night giving the showdown an eerie back drop of dust and blowing debris. A pealing church bell adds to the atmosphere. On a whole its not bad.

Now here is one example of the difference between journeyman vs. master, during this storm the lighting stays staionary, a Leone would have had wildly swinging lamps with carzy shadows both hiding an revealing, loudly banging doors and signs. Its just missing that extra creative spark.

After Hamilton gets "busy with it", Acombar's men drop like files, some in unusal and macabre ways. It builds to an okay, well shot ending which has been done before in other films so it wasn't original.

Kinsky is rather methodical here, he's definitely not chewing up the scenery, which I think is a mistake, with Kinsky you really, really, want an over the top performance, that was Kinsky's gift.

Its a good B SW that feels like a very good TV Western with a TV type score to match. There are probably lots of these out there in Spaghetti World, films that fit between the cream of the cream and the dregs, a lot of them will have no big name actors so they will probably pass under our radar screens.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Banjo on March 30, 2006, 07:47:28 AM
Its kinda hard to imagine Kinski as the good guy but i'm still very tempted with this one!


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: The Firecracker on March 30, 2006, 09:47:07 AM
Ok back to the film. Hunkered down in an easy chair I watched There are probably lots of these out there in Spaghetti World, films that fit between the cream of the cream and the dregs, a lot of them will have no big name actors so they will probably pass under our radar screens.

most definatly. which is why I dont want to miss a minute of it.

Thanks for the review Joe. I only read a bit because I didnt want to spoil myself.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: titoli on September 03, 2006, 04:12:08 PM
CJ's review is right on the dot, little to add.
To have Kinsky play the good one is like having Fred Astaire sitting on a wheelchair.
The main problem with the movie is the story: much too basic. A man is out there for vengeance. The movie tells how many men he has to kill to get to base. The rest is stuffing, more or less well enacted by the director, who surely is a professional in arranging things before the camera: sometime a little too much (see the scene where the people of the town go out in the street. They look like the body-snatchers, so well in line they are).
The only original, good thing of the movie is the bell toll effect: inspired by Leone, will be taken up again, as we know, by the master himself.





Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Banjo on September 04, 2006, 03:11:27 AM

To have Kinsky play the good one is like having Fred Astaire sitting on a wheelchair.
I need to sit through this again but Kinski ain't exactly a clean cut smily Giuliano Gemma hero type here and i think its stretching it a bit to call him a good guy when you consider the scrupleless way he deals with Acombars mens and the woman who betrayed him,the only hint of goodness in this movie being that he didn't kill Acombars son.
For me this is Margherittis best western(a tv western? :o - gimme a break!-much too many rough edges and i've never seen anything from that ilk this edgy!!) very spooky and atmospheric with as much tension provided as any other sw i've seen,and a good soundtrack i believe.The script is more intelligent than  anything i've seen from Leone-all of the performances are top notch-its very intruiging watching Acombars character getting gradually more and more stressed as his men are systematically knocked off one by one,while pretending to his son and woman that theres nothing out of the ordinary going down.
I seriously wish there were "lots of these out there in the Spaghetti World" because i'm not  far off the 200 mark for sw's and the only parellel i can think of offhand is the excellent Django The Bastard.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: titoli on September 04, 2006, 05:30:37 AM
I have almost the impression that Kinsky is embarassed, like he doesn't know what he should be up to, as  in the final duel in the mirror room. Those close-up of him are revealing: he looks to me like he's asking us: "What expression am I supposed to play?".

I can see, though, where the point of division in liking the movie or not lies: probably the horror fans like the effects that specialist Margheriti adopts in many scenes. For the same reason western fans don't.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: cigar joe on September 04, 2006, 07:39:34 AM
Quote
For me this is Margherittis best western(a tv western?  - gimme a break!-much too many rough edges and i've never seen anything from that ilk this edgy!!) very spooky and atmospheric with as much tension provided as any other sw i've seen,and a good soundtrack i believe.The script is more intelligent than  anything i've seen from Leone-all of the performances are top notch-its very intruiging watching Acombars character getting gradually more and more stressed as his men are systematically knocked off one by one,while pretending to his son and woman that theres nothing out of the ordinary going down.

Man you are seriously delusional, lol, this is third rate at best, definitely TV grade material, (you must have real crap om TV  in the UK if you can make that statement, IMO)

It plays and looks like a TV western the only thing different is the degree of violence and that's not enough to make it great.

I agree with titoli on the Horror fans vs Western fans point of divison.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Arizona Colt on September 04, 2006, 11:28:19 PM
I need to sit through this again but Kinski ain't exactly a clean cut smily Giuliano Gemma hero type here and i think its stretching it a bit to call him a good guy when you consider the scrupleless way he deals with Acombars mens and the woman who betrayed him,the only hint of goodness in this movie being that he didn't kill Acombars son.
For me this is Margherittis best western(a tv western? :o - gimme a break!-much too many rough edges and i've never seen anything from that ilk this edgy!!) very spooky and atmospheric with as much tension provided as any other sw i've seen,and a good soundtrack i believe.The script is more intelligent than  anything i've seen from Leone-all of the performances are top notch-its very intruiging watching Acombars character getting gradually more and more stressed as his men are systematically knocked off one by one,while pretending to his son and woman that theres nothing out of the ordinary going down.
I seriously wish there were "lots of these out there in the Spaghetti World" because i'm not  far off the 200 mark for sw's and the only parellel i can think of offhand is the excellent Django The Bastard.
Banjo, I'm in agreeance with you here. I posted a brief review of this a while back and I find the comparison to a TV western laughable much akin to the statement that the film was shot in a gravel pit from the first post (incidentally a reviewer stated this on ebay which is probably what that first post is based from) equally ridiculous as the only signs of said rock quarry appear during the opening five minutes with the remainder of the film taking place during a tornado!

I didn't see the detractors noticing this ORIGINAL concept particularly that the Coming of Kinski is symbolic of the approaching storm. Not to mention the gothic trappings (the hanging man from the church bell was a nice touch) and Kinski as an anti hero. It's a shame he didn't do more like this as I enjoyed him as such.

What exactly is a TV western anyways? Do you mean Gunsmoke? Bonanza? Cheyenne? Laredo? ETC, ETC, ETC.........Exactly where does AGSTC fit in this criteria?

The soundtrack while not the most memorable does have an interesting main theme.

And comparing this film to Leones, well, considering there had been around 300-400 spags made before it the saying 'imitation is the best form of flattery' doesn't apply here as I don't particularly recall any 15 minute scenes of three guys standing around looking at each other.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Banjo on September 05, 2006, 05:19:28 AM
What exactly is a TV western anyways?
A very valid question Arizona Colt and i'm awaiting Cigar Joes reply with interest.
My idea of a TV western as opposed to one we'd see in a theatre would be a low budget film(FOD?),with bland inoffensive stars and  a script/storyline/action made safe and cosy for a family audience.
And God Said To Cain?Surely someone else here must be seriously deluded! ;D
I wouldn't call Alex Cox deluded who also seems to rate AGSTC(and other sw's CJ dislikes including Requiescant,Django,Navajo Joe-are all these TV westerns too?) quite highly ;)


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: cigar joe on September 05, 2006, 05:50:17 AM
Its all about mastercraftsmanship and this lacks it.

You two are the deluded ones.  8)

Judging by Cox's "Straight to Hell" he lacks it also


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Banjo on September 05, 2006, 07:23:43 AM
    But with respect CJ,dya think people are more likely to take your word for it rather than someone like Cox who has over a long period of time extensively studied a huge chunk of sw's ,written books and is often consulted for his expertise to provide commentaries etc for various dvds or sw's shown on tv?  ::)
   We all have our own opinions of course but i really think its a bit disrespectly to suggest  fellow ethusiasts of this genre are deluded  :-\
   About this horror fan vs western fan division-is there a division?Theres one big thing i notice from this forum is that there is a significant number of us that enjoy our gothic Hammer horrors as much as sw's and i don't see anything at all wrong with being innovative and pushing the boundaries a bit.Afterall comedy,kung fu,James Bond,whodunnits have all been successfully combined with a western so why not horror?
    Anyway CJ aren't you a fan of 4 of The Apocalypse?-plenty of horror influences there methinks ;D


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: The Firecracker on September 05, 2006, 08:12:19 AM


You two are the deluded ones.  8)



I guess you can count me in then because I find that Leone's contemporarys were every bit as good as the master himself. Perhaps their methods are sloppier but at least they  knew how to make great entertaining films.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: titoli on September 05, 2006, 09:00:10 AM
CJ (and me) are not alone in not counting this as a good movie. In the italian SWdb review it is said that opinions differ on it. I don't know whether CJ's comparison with tv movies is correct (i'm not an expert in that field) but I trust him on this. Yes, I like the (best) Hammer and Amicus productions, but there's little of it here. Rather there's much of italian horror and gialli cheapest tricks, though I agree that

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

 the hung corpse on the bell has a good timing and comes unexpected. The fact that Cox consider it as a good one it is just an opinion like all the ones  that can be found here, as this is not a forum for beginners.  Maybe he can articulate better his arguments (I'll check on those) but in the end I trust him exactly as I trust the any other contributor to the board.     


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: The Firecracker on September 05, 2006, 11:37:20 AM
CJ (and me) are not alone in not counting this as a good movie. In the italian SWdb review it is said that opinions differ on it.

  


Thomas Weisser is'nt fond of it either... but he hardly counts as a person.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: titoli on September 05, 2006, 12:58:21 PM
I didn't read his book and probably won't ever, but he might have very well said the only right thing to be found there. Anyway, I don't think the info in the italian db was referring to him.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: The Firecracker on September 05, 2006, 02:09:19 PM
I didn't read his book and probably won't ever, but he might have very well said the only right thing to be found there. Anyway, I don't think the info in the italian db was referring to him.
His judgment was a bit unfair because he had a knackered vhs pan & scan copy that suffered from being too dark in night scenes. And as I hear...80% of this movie was filmed during the evening.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: cigar joe on September 05, 2006, 05:05:48 PM
Quote
I guess you can count me in then because I find that Leone's contemporarys were every bit as good as the master himself. Perhaps their methods are sloppier but at least they  knew how to make great entertaining films.


Blasphemer !!!!!!!

 ;D


I'm glad you qualified it a bit though.  8)

Opinions differ, but this is after all a Leone board.  8)


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: The Firecracker on September 05, 2006, 05:10:42 PM




Opinions differ, but this is after all a Leone board.  8)


If SWWB was'nt such a mess I might just spend a lot more time there.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Arizona Colt on September 05, 2006, 10:11:49 PM
Its all about mastercraftsmanship and this lacks it.

You two are the deluded ones.  8)

Judging by Cox's "Straight to Hell" he lacks it also
Tell me something Joe are you a filmmaker? Nor am I but I am learned enough to know that movies are not all about mastercraftsmanship (is this a word?). When movies first appeared the last thing on the audiences mind were trying to figure out the deeper meanings of plot machinations. Nor were there many who sat for hours long after the final reel had spun analyzing what the director was trying to say.

They went strictly for the entertainment to get away from the stressful and turmultuous affairs real life afforded. Movies that make you think are fine and dandy but you come off as if those are the only ones that matter and anyone who thinks differently from you is 'DELUSIONAL' when in actuallity your close-mindedness makes you 'DELUSIONAL'.

You scoff at any film that features fantastic elements that are detached even slightly from reality but yet you fail to recognize the fantasy elements present in the films you so champion? D-E-L-U-S-I-O-N-A-L. Lighten up chief, broaden your horizons a bit and loosen the ego. Your circle won't be ashamed of you for liking something other than Fellini or Leone (really, what else can be said about his films, it's not like he did a dozen of them).


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: cigar joe on September 06, 2006, 05:58:51 AM
quote]When movies first appeared the last thing on the audiences mind were trying to figure out the deeper meanings of plot machinations. Nor were there many who sat for hours long after the final reel had spun analyzing what the director was trying to say.

They went strictly for the entertainment to get away from the stressful and turmultuous affairs real life afforded. Movies that make you think are fine and dandy but you come off as if those are the only ones that matter and anyone who thinks differently from you is 'DELUSIONAL' when in actuallity your close-mindedness makes you 'DELUSIONAL'.

You scoff at any film that features fantastic elements that are detached even slightly from reality but yet you fail to recognize the fantasy elements present in the films you so champion? D-E-L-U-S-I-O-N-A-L. Lighten up chief, broaden your horizons a bit and loosen the ego. Your circle won't be ashamed of you for liking something other than Fellini or Leone (really, what else can be said about his films, it's not like he did a dozen of them).
Quote


Were are talking Westerns here they should be judged in that aspect against all SW & AW's.

There is now way you can remotely say that AGSTC is anything but one on the many "B" run of the mill exploitation SW's that exploded on the scene after the success of Leone's films. If AGSTC didn't have Kinsky in it, I wouldn't have even bothered to watch it.

I watched it again last night, and stand by my assesment, is a "B" film, you can see the drill holes in the rock during the stagecoach ride, the overly melodramatic music punctuating the drama is quite laughable in parts. There are so many protagonists that they just become a blur, it was just lacking in everything.

Hey I like Blindman, parts of Day of Anger, and The Grand Dule among others.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Banjo on September 06, 2006, 08:12:45 AM
Tell me something Joe are you a filmmaker? Nor am I but I am learned enough to know that movies are not all about mastercraftsmanship (is this a word?). When movies first appeared the last thing on the audiences mind were trying to figure out the deeper meanings of plot machinations. Nor were there many who sat for hours long after the final reel had spun analyzing what the director was trying to say.

They went strictly for the entertainment to get away from the stressful and turmultuous affairs real life afforded. Movies that make you think are fine and dandy but you come off as if those are the only ones that matter and anyone who thinks differently from you is 'DELUSIONAL' when in actuallity your close-mindedness makes you 'DELUSIONAL'.

You scoff at any film that features fantastic elements that are detached even slightly from reality but yet you fail to recognize the fantasy elements present in the films you so champion? D-E-L-U-S-I-O-N-A-L. Lighten up chief, broaden your horizons a bit and loosen the ego. Your circle won't be ashamed of you for liking something other than Fellini or Leone (really, what else can be said about his films, it's not like he did a dozen of them).
I'm totally with you on this one AC.For many years Leones films were treated with the same sort of distain as Cigar Joe shows for several  sw classics so i'm thankful for the likes of Howard Hughes,Alex Cox and many reviewers on this site(who are not so stuck up just one directors arse ;D) for recognising the quality  in many of these obscurer westerns and i would hate it if someone would be put off a purchase because of one elitists put downs :(
You don't like Django CJ ,but i seem to remember that although it didn't win outright in the recent series of SW polls we ran-it still registered the most votes.Several years ago i saw this monumental sw classic on British tv after being banned for 20 years-and who introduced it?none other than Mr Alex Cox.



Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: titoli on September 06, 2006, 10:26:57 AM
Quote
and i would hate it if someone would be put off a purchase because of one elitists put downs

I would also hate if somebody would pay good money for a film and then feel buffaloed by a enthusiastic review. I think that the use of a forum like this is to compare opinions and trust on a subject the reviewer one feels more akin to.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: cigar joe on September 06, 2006, 03:44:20 PM
Quote
I would also hate if somebody would pay good money for a film and then feel buffaloed by a enthusiastic review. I think that the use of a forum like this is to compare opinions and trust on a subject the reviewer one feels more akin to.


what he said......

Seriously other than the top 20 SW's they just don't add up.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: titoli on September 06, 2006, 04:12:23 PM
Uhmmmm, I wouldn't be surprised to find AGSTC in somebody's Best 20's SW's list...


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: cigar joe on September 06, 2006, 04:30:52 PM
Quote
Uhmmmm, I wouldn't be surprised to find AGSTC in somebody's Best 20's SW's list...


Probably Banjo, Arizona Colt, Firecracker,  ;D

Quote
You don't like Django CJ ,but i seem to remember that although it didn't win outright in the recent series of SW polls we ran-it still registered the most votes.

I can almost gaurantee you the majority of Leone enthusiasts on this board never saw Django, or any other SW other than Leone's films, so how could they vote? It seems it was 7-10 of us at most that participated in that poll.  ;)


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: The Firecracker on September 06, 2006, 08:57:45 PM
Uhmmmm, I wouldn't be surprised to find AGSTC in somebody's Best 20's SW's list...
Not quite top 20...but #28...


http://members.home.nl/batenroger/top150333.htm


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: The Firecracker on September 06, 2006, 08:58:26 PM


what he said......

Seriously other than the top 20 SW's they just don't add up.


Opinions differ Joe.

What is your top 20?


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: The Firecracker on September 06, 2006, 09:02:38 PM




Quote
I can almost gaurantee you the majority of Leone enthusiasts on this board never saw Django, or any other SW other than Leone's films, so how could they vote? It seems it was 7-10 of us at most that participated in that poll.  ;)
Quote



This has nothing to do with what is being discussed. Just because most here haven't seen a lot of spaghetti westerns doesn't make the genre a horrid peice of trash.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: cigar joe on September 06, 2006, 09:15:35 PM
Quote
This has nothing to do with what is being discussed. Just because most here haven't seen a lot of spaghetti westerns doesn't make the genre a horrid peice of trash.


I never said that, I'm saying that the poll is skewed.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: The Firecracker on September 06, 2006, 09:20:19 PM


I never said that, I'm saying that the poll is skewed.

why? because it doesn't comply with your top twenty?

I'm still waiting for your list Joe. Please.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: cigar joe on September 06, 2006, 09:36:55 PM
Quote
why? because it doesn't comply with your top twenty?

I'm still waiting for your list Joe. Please.


Not that, more because your not getting a good sample of the board members. The way to do it would be for all Leone Board members to view the films then take a poll.

My list

The Good The Bad & The Ugly
Once Upon a Time in the West
For A Few Dollars More
Duck You Sucker
The Big Gundown
The Mercenary
Companero''s
Death Rides A Horse
A Fistfull of Dollars
A Bullet For The General
Run Man Run
The Great Silence
Cemetery Without Crosses
Keoma
Tepepa
A Man Called Sledge
Face To Face
Blindman
My Name is Nobody
Day Of Anger


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: The Firecracker on September 06, 2006, 09:41:23 PM



My list

The Big Gundown
The Mercenary
Companero''s
Death Rides A Horse
A Fistfull of Dollars



so you do agree that Leone's contemporary's did better work then he did at times. ;D


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: cigar joe on September 06, 2006, 09:50:53 PM
Better than Fistfull of Dollars, his first venture into Westerns, yea, I'll give you that one.  :)


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Arizona Colt on September 07, 2006, 01:00:21 AM
quote]When movies first appeared the last thing on the audiences mind were trying to figure out the deeper meanings of plot machinations. Nor were there many who sat for hours long after the final reel had spun analyzing what the director was trying to say.

They went strictly for the entertainment to get away from the stressful and turmultuous affairs real life afforded. Movies that make you think are fine and dandy but you come off as if those are the only ones that matter and anyone who thinks differently from you is 'DELUSIONAL' when in actuallity your close-mindedness makes you 'DELUSIONAL'.

You scoff at any film that features fantastic elements that are detached even slightly from reality but yet you fail to recognize the fantasy elements present in the films you so champion? D-E-L-U-S-I-O-N-A-L. Lighten up chief, broaden your horizons a bit and loosen the ego. Your circle won't be ashamed of you for liking something other than Fellini or Leone (really, what else can be said about his films, it's not like he did a dozen of them).
Quote


Were are talking Westerns here they should be judged in that aspect against all SW & AW's.

There is now way you can remotely say that AGSTC is anything but one on the many "B" run of the mill exploitation SW's that exploded on the scene after the success of Leone's films. If AGSTC didn't have Kinsky in it, I wouldn't have even bothered to watch it.

I watched it again last night, and stand by my assesment, is a "B" film, you can see the drill holes in the rock during the stagecoach ride, the overly melodramatic music punctuating the drama is quite laughable in parts. There are so many protagonists that they just become a blur, it was just lacking in everything.

Hey I like Blindman, parts of Day of Anger, and The Grand Dule among others.
So because a film has continuity errors that makes it a B film and unworthy of praise? Count nearly every flick both big and small since the dawn of film in that category then. And I couldn't have one top 20. One would be for entertainment value alone and another would be for consistent directorial prowess within the films running time. But you forget most movies are made as the former, not all directors seek out to "make you think".


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Banjo on September 07, 2006, 03:07:11 AM
I can almost gaurantee you the majority of Leone enthusiasts on this board never saw Django, or any other SW other than Leone's films, so how could they vote? It seems it was 7-10 of us at most that participated in that poll.  ;)
Yes but surely you will agree that opinions from 7-10 people is a safer indication of a sw merits rather than just one person.
I'm not so sure the SW league was as flawed as you make out.Unfortunately i haven't been able to find that old poll conducted by the SWWB but i'm sure the results there largely tallied with our competition with Django again featuring very high and(i think)only being beaten by Big Gundown and Great Silence.
Anyway from the people here that broaden their horizons and explore other sw's i don't think 7-10 is too bad a cross section and i'd like to think that rather than one sw virgin being expected to hang on to every word of someone with a chip on their shoulder  ;)  they'd be able to make a wiser purchase decision based on a democratic process from a wider spectrum of opinions-the SW league.  8)


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: cigar joe on September 07, 2006, 05:41:46 AM
Quote
I'm not so sure the SW league was as flawed as you make out.Unfortunately i haven't been able to find that old poll conducted by the SWWB but i'm sure the results there largely tallied with our competition with Django again featuring very high and(i think)only being beaten by Big Gundown and Great Silence.
Anyway from the people here that broaden their horizons and explore other sw's i don't think 7-10 is too bad a cross section and i'd like to think that rather than one sw virgin being expected to hang on to every word of someone with a chip on their shoulder  they'd be able to make a wiser purchase decision based on a democratic process from a wider spectrum of opinions-the SW league. 



I don't have a chip on my shoulder, I'm just saying just because a film shows a guy dragging a coffin (Django) , an ear being cut off and fed to its owner, which may be innovative for a western,  look very cool,  and titilate some members doesn't make the rest of the film (sawdust quicksand, & absurd story line) all that great. It seems the SWWB thrives on the wierd (Matalo, Django Kill) and the overly bloody, They barley ever talk of the classics but revel in the fan projects and the obscure releases.


The way to really do a poll is to send each of our members a DVD of a film to watch and compare and then vote and see how it turns out. If you actually own the film you are already predisposed to it. IMO.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Banjo on September 08, 2006, 01:28:36 AM
Yes but surely you will agree that opinions from 7-10 people is a safer indication of a sw merits rather than just one person.
So Cigar Joe,why didn't you highlight and comment on this paragraph?
Maybe because overall 7-10 people are more enlightened with their opinions about Django   ;)
    I must also point out that both Howard Hughes and Thomas Weisser in their books have invited a number of sw experts to state their favourite sw's and Django features prominently in EVERY list. 8)
    I'm not a big fan of Cemetery Without Crosses(and i see this is one of your favourites ::) ) which did extremely well in our recent competition finishing in the top 10 but i wouldn't suggest that anyone is deluded in thinking this is one of the classics,even though i think that CWC isn't fit to lick Django's boots ;D   


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Tim on September 08, 2006, 09:18:51 AM
Quote
Unfortunately i haven't been able to find that old poll conducted by the SWWB

  You mean this one, banjo?

  http://www.sartana.homestead.com/Top20.html


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: The Firecracker on September 08, 2006, 10:56:39 AM
  You mean this one, banjo?

  http://www.sartana.homestead.com/Top20.html


"Big Gundown" #1? Don't think so...


That list lost all credibility once they featured "any gun can play" and "Price of power" on the top twenty. :P


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Banjo on September 08, 2006, 04:54:01 PM
My list

A Man Called Sledge
Blindman
CJ,aren't both these sw's featured ALONGSIDE And God Said To Cain on the "B" list of your Leone Lovers guide? ;D
Titoli,what is the general appraisal of Django in Italy? ::)


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: titoli on September 08, 2006, 05:43:50 PM
I presume it is the same as in the rest of the world. At first it was heavily lambasted by professional critics, then overpraised by b-movies fans. Here

http://www.spaghettiwestern.altervista.org/django.htm

says it is Corbucci's masterpiece, which makes me presume is a view shared by others. 


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: The Firecracker on September 08, 2006, 05:53:43 PM
which makes me presume is a view shared by others. 


I'm curious to hear/read what you have to say about it?


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Banjo on September 08, 2006, 05:56:08 PM
I agree,and is there an Italian non-Leone sw poll? ::)


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: titoli on September 08, 2006, 07:12:57 PM
I don't think so.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: cigar joe on September 08, 2006, 08:51:31 PM
Quote
CJ,aren't both these sw's featured ALONGSIDE And God Said To Cain on the "B" list of your Leone Lovers guide?


Quote
There is now way you can remotely say that AGSTC is anything but one on the many "B" run of the mill exploitation SW's that exploded on the scene after the success of Leone's films. If AGSTC didn't have Kinsky in it, I wouldn't have even bothered to watch it.


I think I already pointed it out back in the thread (see above), if it wasn't for Kinsky I wouldn't have bothered to get it but it is nowhere near the A list  ;D


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Banjo on September 09, 2006, 06:16:30 AM
Kinsky is rather methodical here, he's definitely not chewing up the scenery, which I think is a mistake, with Kinsky you really, really, want an over the top performance, that was Kinsky's gift.
But from this quote its not a great Kinski performance! :o
   I'm still interested to know whether people should listen to the overall verdict of 7-10 people and buy Django(afterall it came 3rd in the sw competition),or just take your word for it and rent it? ::)


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: cigar joe on September 09, 2006, 07:59:03 AM
Makes more sense to rent it first,  rather than take our words (and tastes) for it,  no ?


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Tim on September 09, 2006, 08:34:46 AM
Quote
I agree,and is there an Italian non-Leone sw poll?

  I don't know if this is what you're talking about, banjo, but I posted this yesterday.

  http://www.sartana.homestead.com/Top20.html

   


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: cigar joe on September 09, 2006, 09:03:43 AM
I think he ment an Italian (Italy) sw site poll.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Banjo on September 10, 2006, 02:37:49 AM
Makes more sense to rent it first,  rather than take our words (and tastes) for it,  no ?
Well that can apply to every sw dvd :-\


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Arizona Colt on September 10, 2006, 10:20:44 AM
Obviously CJ has not seen very many Kinski movies as he doesn't eat the scenery in everything he appears in because it doesn't necessarily require it. If he were to overact in all his movies, well, that wouldn't say much for his acting abilities.

He turned down the role as the main heavy in RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK because he thought the script was bad but opted instead to appear in the killer snake movie VENOM with Susan George and Oliver Reed where he played the heavy again and a restrained performance(still good though), also he doesn't ham it up in the following-

CREATURE aka TITAN FIND from 1984 (his character is a bit on the sex crazy side but not as manic as some others), CIRCUS OF FEAR, the italian war picture FIVE FOR HELL, SLAUGHTER HOTEL and NOSFERATU all show KInski delivering performances unlike the ones you claim he was "gifted" for.

From having read his autobiography the man had many personal demons and I'm sure these came through in many of his performances which is why he appeared SCHIZO(another Kinski role! 1970) frentic in many of his pictures. So you not only judge how "perfect" a movie must be for you to even consider its merits now you won't even acknowledge a Kinski movie that doesn't feature (over)acting skills that the man was often criticized for! AMAZING!


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: titoli on September 10, 2006, 11:34:03 AM
In the late '60's and early '70's Kinsky was far from being an actor who could be picky about roles. I think he gained a status (read: money value) only after Aguirre. So he went only for the money. I remember an interview given in italian where he said that he turned down a Fellini offer because in the same time it took him to make that single movie he could shoot 3 SW's. Joe D'Amato, in another interview, confirms he was simply a hustle: he was there for the money and that's that.
I prefer him in excessive roles. That doesn't mean he was a limited actor: it means that he gave his best playing certain kinds of characters. His theatrical career was based on excesses, as his life. He could play perfectly a character like Fitzcarraldo, but that could have been done also by other actors. No actor, on the contrary, comes to mind who could have played like he did Wild or Aguirre. But these are just my opinions.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Banjo on September 11, 2006, 02:01:45 AM
  I don't know if this is what you're talking about, banjo, but I posted this yesterday.

  http://www.sartana.homestead.com/Top20.html

   
Thanks Tim,that was the poll i was referring to.I used to be able to access this poll via a link(now disappeared) on Shobarys site.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Arizona Colt on September 12, 2006, 12:07:55 AM
In the late '60's and early '70's Kinsky was far from being an actor who could be picky about roles. I think he gained a status (read: money value) only after Aguirre. So he went only for the money. I remember an interview given in italian where he said that he turned down a Fellini offer because in the same time it took him to make that single movie he could shoot 3 SW's. Joe D'Amato, in another interview, confirms he was simply a hustle: he was there for the money and that's that.
I prefer him in excessive roles. That doesn't mean he was a limited actor: it means that he gave his best playing certain kinds of characters. His theatrical career was based on excesses, as his life. He could play perfectly a character like Fitzcarraldo, but that could have been done also by other actors. No actor, on the contrary, comes to mind who could have played like he did Wild or Aguirre. But these are just my opinions.

True, he states this in his book that he only did the westerns for the money. He took the one that paid the most which probably accounts for why he's only in some of the movies for a brief period.

In an interview with Bill Malone the director of the fine ALIEN clone CREATURE 1984 he said that Kinski was so expensive that they could only afford him for three days and the remainder of his scenes had to be finished by another actor (although these scenes had his character under extensive make-up).

 There were many directors who hated to work with him because of his notoriously difficult behavior and Mario Caiano walked away from directorial duties on a film because of Kinskis erratic tantrums. Still, he seemed a genuine human being and would make for an interesting conversation.

I suppose he portrays a madman so well that many expect to see him as that persona all the time. But as you stated Titoli, his stylized acting stems from his theatrical background. I enjoyed his performance in AGSTC and it was a shame he didn't play more good guys.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: The Firecracker on April 16, 2007, 02:21:19 AM
Finally saw this movie.

It has it's faults but I lean towards Banjo and AC's review more than I do CJ's or Titoli's.

check out my review here...
http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=3802.120
(scroll down)



Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Banjo on April 16, 2007, 03:41:37 PM
It has it's faults but I lean towards Banjo and AC's review more than a I do CJ's or Titoli's.


Hooray  :D

Thats 3 - 2 to us! ;D


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Banjo on May 25, 2007, 06:45:32 AM
Here's Firecracker's  review from his Obscure Sw's thread:-

 After enduring ten years of hard labor for a crime he did not commit, Gary Hamilton (Klaus Kinski) is given a a presidential pardon (preposterous, but who cares?) and is let out of prison. After ten years of shoveling and smashing rocks in the hot sun there is only one thing on his mind, revenge. Revenge on Acombar, the man who framed him. Gary soon finds out that this  same man is now the wealthiest land baron in the territory and is also sleeping with his wife. Gary purchases a rifle and (with what seems to be a never ending supply of bullets) sets out to extract his revenge on Acombar. But before Gary can get to him he must face 30 of Acombar's bodyguards during a conveinantly well timed tornado at night.

Antonio Margheriti (better known as Anthony Dawson or Anthony S. Dawson) returns to his horror roots to direct this suspenseful revenge story.
The movie has some fabulous atmosphere. The character of Gary Hamilton is treated as a supernatural by the villains. Wind picks up whenever he appears, animals make strange noises when his name is uttered and his arrival is signified by a threatening Tornando. This all adds to the horror element of the movie (also the fact that a large portion of the film takes place at night).

It's a good little western with a few atypical twists. However it doesn't all go off without a hitch. There is a very nasty pacing problem during the 45 minute storm segment where Hamilton hunts down each and every one of the villain's gunmen. Hamilton does this by firing from windows then ducking before the return fire reaches him and by firing his rifle from holes on the ground when down in a tunnel system under the town's buildings.
This goes on for quite awhile. I'm sure you can agree with me when I say there is nothing more dull than some prick hiding behind a barrel and randomly picking off people every now and again. I Hate to see that in westerns.
It's alright if it's used once or twice but when several action scenes are devoted to it for long periods of time something is certainly wrong.

In it's defense there are some really creative death scenes, an interesting use of a church bell as a weapon is of particular mention, however there is a severe lack of them overall. Too bad.
I also thought that the virtually non-existant tornado should have played a larger role in the film as opposed to making a few cameo appearences as a gust of wind every now and again (they had a nice dust devil effect in "Matalo!". Why not here?). Perhaps the twister could have taken out a few baddies? mmm? Just a thought.

The cast is a good one. Kinski stars as the anti-hero Hamilton. It's almost a sick joke casting Klaus Kinski as a hero. The famous actor played mostly villains throughout his entire career and I have yet to see him playing a good guy in a spaghetti western. I suppose he liked the role because he would usually snag a part where he was on set for as little time as possible for as much money as possible.

Peter Carsten as the greedy Acombar does his job as a slimy no good and the pretty Marcella Michelangeli is unforgivable as Hamilton's cheating wife.

Composer Carlo Savina makes a good soundtrack here. I really like the title theme.

Despite it's faults And God Said To Cain is a welcome addition to any spaghetti western library and worth picking up.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Banjo on May 26, 2007, 06:58:10 AM
Arizona Colt's  review:-

AND GOD SAID TO CAIN-Nifty little italian oater is unique in several ways. Kinski is a heroic and somewhat noble figure here as I've never seen him play a character like this before. He's pardoned for a crime he did not commit and goes back to the town to even the score with the many individuals who had him put away for 10 years. It's also unique in that nearly the entire movie takes place during a tornado storm which also is symbolic of Kinskis return to the town to settle scores. The villain of the story even refers to Kinskis character as a storm coming to town. Margheriti is in fine form here as opposed to the lackluster VENGEANCE and even adds an air of horror to the proceedings this time out as several characters meet gruesome demises and Margheriti also pulls off some nice shots as well as some good suspense scenes. The only drawback to an otherwise great 95 minutes is that some of the stalking scenes go on a bit too long although it is quite ingenious how Kinski appears and disappears thru trapdoors and caves to pick the men off with ease.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Rojo Ramone on August 19, 2007, 11:35:12 AM
I watched this last night thanks to the Franco Cleef DVD-r from Xploited.
I loved the film. I'm a huge Gothic horror fan so naturally i like Margheriti's CASTLE OF BLOOD, WEB OF THE SPIDER and LONG HAIR OF DEATH, and this movie is no exception.
 Although, anyone looking for an original plot will be disappointed~heck there's not much of a plot at all.


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: O'Cangaceiro on August 12, 2010, 12:47:43 PM
I watched this last night thanks to the Franco Cleef DVD-r from Xploited.
I loved the film. I'm a huge Gothic horror fan so naturally i like Margheriti's CASTLE OF BLOOD, WEB OF THE SPIDER and LONG HAIR OF DEATH, and this movie is no exception.
 Although, anyone looking for an original plot will be disappointed~heck there's not much of a plot at all.

You are right, not much of a plot at all. It's just a revenge tale that goes on for about 100 minutes and is filled with suspense (quasi horror) scenes. Something a bit different than usual, but I think it is worth watching Kinski's performance.

6/10


Title: Re: And God Said to Cain aka E Dio disse a Caino (1970)
Post by: Spikeopath on February 09, 2017, 03:30:15 PM
For whom the bell tolls.

And God said to Cain (E Dio Disse a Caino) is directed by Antonio Margheriti, who also co-writes the screenplay with Giovanni Addessi. It stars Klaus Kinski, Peter Carsten, Marcella Michelangeli, Guido Lollobrigida and Antonio Cantafora. Music is by Carlo Savina and cinematography by Riccardo Pallottini and Luciano Trasatti.

When Gary Hamilton (Kinski) receives a pardon from his sentence at a prison work camp, he has only one thing on his mind; revenge on those responsible for his unfair incarceration.

A ghost returns and he'll have, he'll have only one desire in his heart, only one thirst: Revenge.

How wonderful, a Spaghetti Western/horror hybrid with scary Kinski as an avenging angel good guy! For the first 30 minutes the film looks to be building up a head of steam for a standardised Spaghetti Western, but things shift once Hamilton approaches town and night begins to fall. From here the film plays out as a Gothic horror involving Western characters, resplendent with big creepy mansion set in a shifty looking town that is cloaked in murky moonlight.

The whole town teeters on the edge of panic as they know who is coming to visit on this dark night. Atmosphere is tightly coiled as things move in the shadows, windows blow open, strange sounds emanate on the impending storm, and the stench of death is everywhere. A bell tolls ominously, birds flee the vicinity, all while Hamilton moves about the town with deadly silence, even using a network of catacombs under the town that were left over from an aged Indian cemetery.

The production value isn't high, but Margheriti maximises what is at his disposal to great ends. The sound effects work is simply terrific, with the shrill of the birds and the dripping water in the caverns playing a tune being particularly striking. There's inventive deaths, sublime scenes (love that rider less horse sequence and the Orson Welles mirror homage) and Kinski being ace as a ghoulish phantom taking a string from the bow of the Count of Monte Cristo.

It's also great to find that Margheriti and Addessi give strength to the picture by way of psychological smarts within the characterisations. This is not merely a spooky revenge story, a chance to pile the bodies up, there is substance to the main players, their motives and means, their frailties and family fractures brutally laid bare. The dialogue is sometimes naff, the cliché's of Spaghetti Westerns rife, and of course not all the visual effects work like they should, but this is one moody and memorable movie that is well worth seeking out if you can see a decent enough print of it. 8/10