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Films of Sergio Leone => Other Films => Topic started by: The Firecracker on April 05, 2006, 09:51:33 PM



Title: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: The Firecracker on April 05, 2006, 09:51:33 PM
An american western that does alot of things right. Very good film with gregory peck. The technicolor is beautiful. The film even has a downer ending. Anybody seen it?

Its a nice gem that got slandered when it was released. Though I cannot imagine why?


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: cigar joe on April 05, 2006, 11:23:35 PM
It got slandered because of too much sex, for the same old Puritain Ethic we disscussed once before. The film is also quite unique because Pearl is the 'hero" in this film.

Jennifer Jones :o was a hottie for sure.


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: The Firecracker on April 06, 2006, 09:57:45 AM
They must mean implied sex because I saw nothing of the sort.


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: cigar joe on April 06, 2006, 06:11:10 PM
That's all you needed back in 1946, lol.


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: Groggy on April 06, 2006, 07:36:01 PM
Never seen it, but it's featured in Michael Sauter's The Worst Movies of All Time, so . . .


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: The Firecracker on April 07, 2006, 03:49:34 PM
That's all you needed back in 1946, lol.

true.


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: The Firecracker on April 13, 2006, 10:42:51 PM
The film is also quite unique because Pearl is the 'hero" in this film.




Pearl the hero? never saw that. I didnt find any heroes in this film at all. Peck's brother is the closest thing that came to a hero in the movie.


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: The Peacemaker on April 13, 2006, 10:44:28 PM
And he got shot...  ::)


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: The Firecracker on April 13, 2006, 10:45:58 PM
And he got shot...  ::)


the loser lives though...to get married. no hero there.


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: cigar joe on April 14, 2006, 06:13:30 AM
Pearl kills bad guy Peck even though she is attracted to him, so she has been considered technically the hero of the film


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: indio on April 14, 2006, 09:12:31 AM
i don't know this one.


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: Jill on May 30, 2007, 09:37:10 AM
I want too see this, but here in Hungary it's impossible... no dvd, no vhs, nothing... television can kiss my ***, they didn't play it...

Are there any good and big pictures? I found very few pics and they are small...

I love Gregory so...


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on May 30, 2007, 05:24:39 PM
He's very good in 12 O'Clock High.


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: Jill on May 26, 2009, 02:30:54 PM
Well... actually saw it twice since then. It's very, very old-fashioned and emo, but the ending is like a good spaghetti. And Jennifer Jones doesn't look like a half-breed. She would even fail as Carmen. But Greg is handsome.  :-*


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: T.H. on May 28, 2009, 06:03:54 PM
While I consider this a mess plotwise, contains 2.5 hours worth of twist and turns sans momentum or logic - a lot of meandering. DitS is very worth watching just for the technicolor/cinematography, the orange, studio-lit skies and the sets (especially the cantina in the movie's opening moments). While it's undeniably flawed, it's an important western.


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: The Firecracker on June 02, 2009, 02:14:29 PM
very worth watching just for the technicolor/cinematography, the orange, studio-lit skies and the sets (especially the cantina in the movie's opening moments).


Which is why I like it.


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: T.H. on June 02, 2009, 02:51:32 PM
That's cerainly understandable, it's a beautiful looking movie.


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: Groggy on July 27, 2010, 01:00:00 PM
Noodles you are a lucky bastard.

Duel in the Sun - 4/10 - Jesus Christ. As one might expect from Selznick and King Vidor, this is certainly a lavish production: gorgeous location shooting in Technicolor, with some studio-lighted dusk scenes that are out of this world, great art direction, nice if bombastic score by Mr. Tiomkin - production-wise, everything is top-notch. And there are a handful of scenes that are good-to-great, like the opening and the cavalry's showdown with Barrymore and Company. But for God's sakes, everything else that matters sucks. You have a disjointed, feverishly melodramatic story that makes not a wit of sense, an unlikeable heroine who completely shifts personality from one scene to the next, an awful script, cartoonish characters and no pretense to subtlety or narrative cohesion. Most of it is just boring and aggressively mediocre until the finale, which for my money is one of the most ludicrous scenes in big-budget movie history, close behind the fight scene in Rasputin and the Empress. There's some possible influence on later directors - the dynastic squabbles a la Anthony Mann, some elements which may have inspired OUATITW - but these aren't alone worth much. Jennifer Jones is awful; Gregory Peck is badly miscast; Joseph Cotten is at his most colorless; Lionel Barrymore and Walter Huston chew scenery with reckless abandon. The more I think about it, the more a 4 may be excessively generous.


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: Dust Devil on January 23, 2011, 02:23:05 PM
Duel in the Sun - 4/10 - Jesus Christ. As one might expect from Selznick and King Vidor, this is certainly a lavish production: gorgeous location shooting in Technicolor, with some studio-lighted dusk scenes that are out of this world, great art direction, nice if bombastic score by Mr. Tiomkin - production-wise, everything is top-notch. And there are a handful of scenes that are good-to-great, like the opening and the cavalry's showdown with Barrymore and Company. But for God's sakes, everything else that matters sucks. You have a disjointed, feverishly melodramatic story that makes not a wit of sense, an unlikeable heroine who completely shifts personality from one scene to the next, an awful script, cartoonish characters and no pretense to subtlety or narrative cohesion. Most of it is just boring and aggressively mediocre until the finale, which for my money is one of the most ludicrous scenes in big-budget movie history, close behind the fight scene in Rasputin and the Empress. There's some possible influence on later directors - the dynastic squabbles a la Anthony Mann, some elements which may have inspired OUATITW - but these aren't alone worth much. Jennifer Jones is awful; Gregory Peck is badly miscast; Joseph Cotten is at his most colorless; Lionel Barrymore and Walter Huston chew scenery with reckless abandon. The more I think about it, the more a 4 may be excessively generous.

Yeah, this is right.

And I thought Brando's One-Eyed Jacks was an over-indulgent borefest... ::)


3.5/10


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: Dust Devil on January 23, 2011, 02:25:36 PM
Never seen it, but it's featured in Michael Sauter's The Worst Movies of All Time, so . . .

I think it's also featured in A Personal Journey with Martin Scorsese Through American Movies, in a good context.

Don't take my word for it, though.


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: Dust Devil on January 23, 2011, 02:29:50 PM
This is what the Dynasty looks and feels like in a W setting, lol.

You have to wait more than an hour and a half for the first gunshot... :(


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: Jill on January 27, 2011, 05:02:09 PM
Hehe :D Saw it twice... only worth for young, sexy Peck and the final duel. But the girl is annoying like hell, and if I want sibling rivalry melodrama with ridiculous plot I'll go for Il Trovatore... at least it has the MUSIC.  ;)

(A western staging of Trovatore? It could rock.)


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: stanton on January 29, 2011, 05:50:07 AM
Pretty low ratings for this important western.

I give it a 8 for its over- the-top melodramatic style. It definitely has a von Sternberg touch.


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 13, 2012, 02:07:59 PM
I just saw Duel in the Sun for the first time, after first hearing about it when watching this video of Scorcese's favorite movies http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TJKf70Tpfc

What can I say? I kept thinking of the 1994 movie Legends of the Fall, which IMO did a great a job with a pretty similar concept. I am not much for the romantic melodramas (though LOTF is one my all-time favorite movies). It certainly seems as if the plot for LOTF was influenced by DITS.

With DITS, the back n' forth got pretty tiresome. I don't mind when someone is torn with conflicting emotions, but it has to be developed and presented in a way that justifies her feelings. I need a reason to believe it, each time she goes off with one or the other, rather than just accepting it cuz the script says that it is happening. There is often little to justify the girl's decisions at one moment or the other.

So, I agree with those of you that don't like the plot, but appreciate the quality of other aspects of the production. Some of the larger-scale scenes set pieces are done really well, such as the opening scene, the standoff between the cowboys and the railroad men, the barbecue at the ranch, etc. In other words, everything not involving the main storyline of the girl's romantic life. And Tiomkin's score, particularly during those big scenes, is really good.


Jones's makeup is awful; she looks like a clown. Giving a a white girl a mudbath doesn't make her a half-breed. Why do Westerns so often do that with American actors who are supposed to be Indians/Mexicans/half-breeds? Can't they use an actress who actually has darker skin? Especially when Jones stands next to other white people in the movie, it looks so bad, it's comical. It's like they are all at the party and she is the clown, just missing the big red nose.
Jones was good, but I don't think she was worthy of that Oscar nomination.

Definitely an unusual role for Peck, as the wild son. (Sometimes I felt that it is hard to fully get into it, knowing that it is Gregory Peck as the wild son!) But Peck -- one of my all-time favorite actors -- did a good job with the role.

None of the other performances are worthy of mention. Jospeh Cotten particularly is terrible. In addition to Jones's Oscar nomination as Best Actress, the film's other Oscar nomination was for Lillian Gish as Best Supporting Actress, and I don't think her performance was all that great.

This movie is about the most sexual thing I can imagine for 1946, and I can certainly see the controversy; frankly, I am surprised it was approved for public showing.

The scenes with the black maid were funny; those with the "sin killer" made you wanna tear your eyes out.

5.5/10


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: stanton on March 14, 2012, 06:48:59 AM
The Outlaw (shot in the early 40s) was more vulgar and a more "sexual thing", but DitS was surely a daring film for the 40s. Well, that's for a Hollywood film.

I re-watched DitS a few days ago. Not as good as I remembered it. Too much time is spent with the melodramatic parts, too less it is a western. Too much O. Selznick, and too less King Vidor. The colour photography is, well, very colourful, extremely colourful. All in all the then spectacular scenes have lost a lot of their impact.
The cast is good, if not great, but Jones unsubtle acting in the lead is too mannered. 6,5/10


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on March 15, 2012, 06:14:49 AM
Jones's makeup is awful; she looks like a clown. Giving a a white girl a mudbath doesn't make her a half-breed. Why do Westerns so often do that with American actors who are supposed to be Indians/Mexicans/half-breeds? Can't they use an actress who actually has darker skin? Especially when Jones stands next to other white people in the movie, it looks so bad, it's comical.
I hear ya. On the other hand, sometimes this approach pays off. Have you ever seen Jean Simmons in Black Narcissus? That was a case of using make-up to turn a white girl brown (she's supposed to be a girl native of India) and it really, really works. Of course, the Archers were responsible for that, not Hollywood, and maybe only they, at the time, could pull it off.


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: Groggy on March 15, 2012, 10:08:22 AM
I hear ya. On the other hand, sometimes this approach pays off. Have you ever seen Jean Simmons in Black Narcissus? That was a case of using make-up to turn a white girl brown (she's supposed to be a girl native of India) and it really, really works. Of course, the Archers were responsible for that, not Hollywood, and maybe only they, at the time, could pull it off.

Well, it is Jean Simmons...


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on March 15, 2012, 02:41:36 PM
Well, it is Jean Simmons...
Not sure I get you. I've never thought of Ms. Simmons as being particularly swarthy otherwise. Just the opposite, in fact.


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: Groggy on March 15, 2012, 03:29:16 PM
Not sure I get you. I've never thought of Ms. Simmons as being particularly swarthy otherwise. Just the opposite, in fact.

For all the years I've known you Jenkins, I still can't tell when you're joking.


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: stanton on January 13, 2014, 05:34:48 AM
Anybody here who knows what the difference is between the 144 min roadshow version and the usual 129 min version?

Is it only additional music? I only found out that it has an overture and exit music and intermission music.


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: titoli on December 14, 2016, 11:52:36 AM
Anybody here who knows what the difference is between the 144 min roadshow version and the usual 129 min version?

Is it only additional music? I only found out that it has an overture and exit music and intermission music.

Yeah, they're in my dvd, bout 6-7 minutes of music. But the ouverture is not only made up of music but includes also a spoken comment.

Rewatched it after eons and more or less everything has been said in the discussion. (But Dust Devil, the first gunshot is heard after a few minutes when Marshall kills wife and lover). Sure, it is easy to understand what was the problem with the sex here: Pearl is led by sexual impulses and there's not redeeming side to it.
Peck (who's the victim of Mae Clark's treatment) should have been given Cotten's part and his given to some roguish character (Flynn? Power?). The finale stayed in my mind and in spite of the melodrama is still the best part of the movie. But 127' of melodrama with some good scenes (the Army confrontation, the saloon in the beginning and in the Bickford's murder, the horse's taming and antics - much better than Lee's praised Cat Ballou drunken horse) are just too much, in spite of the technicolor. The black girl should have at least have earned an Oscar nomination. 5/10


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 14, 2016, 05:56:36 PM
While I consider this a mess plotwise, contains 2.5 hours worth of twist and turns sans momentum or logic - a lot of meandering. DitS is very worth watching just for the technicolor/cinematography, the orange, studio-lit skies and the sets (especially the cantina in the movie's opening moments). While it's undeniably flawed, it's an important western.

The only thing important about this movie is that it is the first movie Martin Scorsese ever saw


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: Dust Devil on December 15, 2016, 12:07:21 AM
The only thing important about this movie is that it is the first movie Martin Scorsese ever saw

I don't know if it's the first but the fact he reviewed/mentioned it in his documentary did do it a big favor.


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 15, 2016, 08:09:36 AM
I don't know if it's the first but the fact he reviewed/mentioned it in his documentary did do it a big favor.

I believe he says it is the first movie he remembers seeing


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: Dust Devil on December 15, 2016, 03:11:31 PM
I believe he says it is the first movie he remembers seeing

I'll take your word for it. O0


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 15, 2016, 03:48:57 PM
actually, he may have said different things at different times. At least once he said that ti was first movie he ever saw, or first movie he ever saw in theaters, or first movie he can remember seeing. Other times, he mentioned how it was a great influence cuz he saw it so young etc. but he doesn't explicitly say it was first, e.g. at 4:05  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0yuKp55cuw&list=PL7K7UEvDonQ0Y_f0jnBNZMo43KYjXz5lP

either way, it was an early influence on Scorsese


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: T.H. on December 15, 2016, 03:57:44 PM
The only thing important about this movie is that it is the first movie Martin Scorsese ever saw
Quoting a post from 7.5 years ago is a bit odd but Duel in the Sun has some brilliant moments and is a very unique western. I'm not that swayed by Scorsese's film opinions when he loves Elia Kazan, whose work I can't stand.



Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: dave jenkins on June 08, 2017, 08:45:54 AM
https://www.amazon.com/Duel-Roadshow-Blu-ray-Jennifer-Jones/dp/B071JL4D1J/


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: Jessica Rabbit on June 08, 2017, 06:03:29 PM
Also called Lust in the Dust, this is a lurid, sexy, campy, politically incorrect ham and cheese sandwich. I love it. Gregory Peck for once is really sexy and thankfully not in "noble mode". He's so much better for it.


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 08, 2017, 06:38:22 PM
Also called Lust in the Dust, this is a lurid, sexy, campy, politically incorrect ham and cheese sandwich. I love it. Gregory Peck for once is really sexy and thankfully not in "noble mode". He's so much better for it.

This movie is terrible. I have no opinion about Peck's sexiness, except to note that he was always considered a sexy guy, not just here. And there are plenty of better movies where Peck is not the goody-goody. See The Bravados and Yellow Sky and The Gunfighter. All Westerns.

The Gunfighter is one of my favorite Westerns. Duel in the Sun is at times excruciating.


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: Jessica Rabbit on June 08, 2017, 07:21:17 PM
Quote
This movie is terrible.
Not at all. It may be a turkey, but I like turkey, with lots of gravy. I haven't seen The Gunfighter and Yellow Sky yet.


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: Spikeopath on June 10, 2017, 06:05:06 AM
Adding my 10 penneth worth   8)

Pearl, you're curved in the flesh of temptation.

Duel in the Sun is predominantly directed by King Vidor and is produced and written by David O. Selznick who adapts (with help from H.P. Garrett & Ben Hecht) from Niven Busch's novel. It stars Jennifer Jones, Joseph Cotten, Gregory Peck, Lillian Gish and Lionel Barrymore; with a huge support cast list that contains the likes of Herbert Marshall, Walter Huston, Charles Bickford & Harry Carey. The plot centres around Pearl Chavez (Jones), a half Indian girl who is orphaned after her father kills her mother and her lover. Pearl is sent to live with an old sweetheart and friend of her fathers, Laura Belle McCanles (Gish), here she becomes involved in prejudice and forbidden love that turns the McCanles family inside out.

David O. Selznick had hoped to recreate, even surpass, the success he had had with Gone With the Wind 7 years previously, only in a Western setting. Plagued with controversy both on and off the screen, the film, in spite of poor reviews, was a box office hit. Tho it's believed that due to high production costs and a cash driven advertising campaign, that the film ultimately only broke about even. The controversy on the screen stemmed from the sexual nature of the story, something that earned the film its famous "Lust In The Dust" nickname. Yet were it not for the Hays Code censors and religious review boards, the film would have been far more controversial, out went rape and a downplaying of the overt sexuality that existed prior to the cuts. Off screen controversy came in the form Selznick's relationship with Jones, a coupling that would break up both their respective marriages. The role of Pearl was originally meant for Hedy Lamarr, and even Teresa Wright was lined up too, but both women fell pregnant. Thus Selznick got the chance to shoehorn in his love and push her to the forefront of the movie with almost tyrannical urgings. 8 directors, 3 writers, 3 cinematographers & 4 editors would ultimately be used (that we know of). While bad weather, strikes and illness to Jones would also plague production. It's a wonder the film got finished at all.

It's an odd film in many ways, but one that appears now to have been very harshly treated by the critics of the day. That's not to say it's a masterpiece of classic Oater cinema, because it's not. But if viewed as a fun Horse Opera with Selznick getting away with as much as he can, then it's not half bad at all. Certainly the cast seem to be playing it as a fun piece of work, especially the wonderful Huston as OTT minister man, The Sinkiller. So viewed without expectation of serious melodrama, Duel In The Sun delivers some fun entertainment. Granted not all of it is intentional; the ending for one is preposterous and mirthful when really it shouldn't be. But the fact remains that the film is entertaining. Action wise it scores well, with stand out scenes including Jones on a runaway horse, hundreds of mounted horsemen riding to defend grumpy Jackson McCanles' (Barrymore) land against railroad incursion, and Peck (playing a sexual rebel type) taming a sex crazed stallion (even the horse knows what is expected of it here!).

Then there's the vast scope of the Western vistas, that are in turn dripping with lurid Technicolor. The terms beautiful and sordid spring to mind, now that is surely two words that aptly apply to the film as a whole? For the best performances one needs to look into the support cast, where Bickford, the afore mentioned Huston, Gish and the always enjoyable Butterfly McQueen, all deliver stoic like performances. Jones is a touch miscast, saddled with being the epicentre of the film (and Selznick's attentions), she at least deserves credit for trying to make the so-so writing work. She certainly looks beautiful and in the more quiet moments for her character the good actress threatens to break out. Peck, in a role originally meant for John Wayne-who balked at the sexiness of the plot, gives it gusto supreme, but whilst acknowledging it being an unusual role for him-so thus a brave choice, he never once convinces as a sexual dynamo. Cotton gets the short straw in that the role is badly underwritten, which when one considers that the story is essentially a Cain & Abel based story; he deserved better. While Barrymore is solidly doing what he does best and his only failing here is to not be as good as his on screen wife. Musically, Dimitri Tiomkin provides a competent if unmemorable score.

Fun, sexy and with little snatches of daring in the plot, Duel In The Sun is better than some would have you believe. But maybe, just maybe, it needs to be viewed with a glint in the eye and the tongue firmly planted in cheek? 7/10


Title: Re: Duel in the Sun (1946)
Post by: Jessica Rabbit on June 10, 2017, 01:59:10 PM
You said it, Spike.  :) I think people take this way too seriously.

Quote
Peck...never once convinces as a sexual dynamo.
Ha, that's what you think! I believed it.

But when Jones says: "Trash, trash, trash, trash, trash..", you really can't argue with her.