Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => The Good, The Bad and The Ugly => Topic started by: cigar joe on September 20, 2006, 10:50:41 PM



Title: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on September 20, 2006, 10:50:41 PM
...for GBU. Its pretty interesting and it meshes well with all the actual historical events it aludes to.

I'll post it in a few days.

But I'll give you a few teasers  8) :

The story starts in the late spring early summer of 1861.

The actual film starts in December of 1861.

There are four major jumps in time that are not at all apparent.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: marmota-b on September 20, 2006, 11:27:08 PM
...for GBU. Its pretty interesting and it meshes well with all the actual historical events it aludes to.

I'll post it in a few days.

But I'll give you a few teasers  8) :

The story starts in the late spring early summer of 1861.

The actual film starts in December of 1861.

There are four major jumps in time that are not at all apparent.

It's really interesting, I'm looking forward to it!


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on September 21, 2006, 05:42:14 AM
Quote
It's really interesting, I'm looking forward to it!


And we can actually more or less trace the movements of all the pricipals on a map of the Southwest.  ;)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: marmota-b on September 21, 2006, 06:15:08 AM
And we can actually more or less trace the movements of all the pricipals on a map of the Southwest.  ;)

That's really great. I always felt it could be possible, but I'm no expert on Civil War, so I'm glad someone else got the idea and did it. :)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on September 21, 2006, 10:02:53 AM
Joe, what's with the tease? Show me the map, man!


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Le Bon on September 21, 2006, 10:58:10 AM
Should be very interesting. Eager to see this.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Cusser on September 21, 2006, 01:30:17 PM
Fort Sumter was fired on April 12, 1861, so that would be just after that....


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on September 21, 2006, 09:14:36 PM
GBU’s Historical Timelines

Jackson-Bill Carson

Soon after the start of the War Between The States, in late April or early May of 1861, a group of Southern patriots that include men with the names of Baker, Stevens, and  Jackson leave their West Texas homes and ride to Dallas where the Texas 3rd Cavalry is organizing. In Early July the regiment leaves Dallas and heads for Missouri on the "Texas Road" through the Indian Territory to Ft. Smith, Arkansas. They participate in the battle of Wilson’s Creek on August 10, 1861, CS casualties 1,095, US casualties 1,235 . The Regiment remains stationed in the border area of Missouri-Arkansas-Indian Territory. The 3rd Cavalry fights in the Battles of Chustenahlah on December 26, 1861.

At the end of January 1862 Jackson, Baker, and Stevens are detailed as a part of a 25 man Paymasters detachment for I Corp of the Trans-Mississippi District. Around the first of February, near Ft. Smith, they blunder into a Union Cavalry recognizance party. In the heat of battle the Paymasters wagon and $200,000 in gold coins disappears.  The sole separated survivors, all wounded, are Corporal Jackson, Stevens, and Baker.  At the beginning of the second week of February back in Dallas a military tribunal conducts an inquiry and acquits Corporal Jackson and Stevens.

Jackson either changes his name to Bill Carson and telegraphs ahead to re-enlist in Sibley’s Brigade, then hops a stage to El Paso, or Jackson, kills the real Bill Carson who is already on his way to join  Sibley  and assumes his identity. Baker belatedly arrives back in Dallas and finds out that Jackson has vanished.

Jackson, heads north from El Paso and he visits Maria his "soiled dove" paramour in the New Mexico Territorial town of Dona Ana.  He reaches Sibley’s Brigade joining the 7th Texas Cavalry (7th Mounted Volunteers) 3rd Regiment on or about February 25th, near Scorro, New Mexico, Territory.

Angel Eyes - West Texas Border Area

Early March 1862 -

Baker back in El Paso, hires Angel Eyes to find Jackson and kill Stevens.

Mid March 1862 -

Angel Eyes (AE) rides out to the Steven’s hacienda, he questions Stevens and discovers the fact that Jackson changed his name to Bill Carson and that he joined Sibley’s Brigade. Stevens also inadvertently spills the beans about the missing cash box. Stevens gives AE $1000 dollars to try and buy off his life, and for AE to kill Baker to boot, but AE kills Stevens and one of his sons.  AE goes back to Baker and collects his money and kills him. AE is now on a personal hunt for Carson.

In El Paso as AE watches the second hanging of Tuco "The Rat" Ramierez, he questions "Half Soldier" (who was in the 3rd Texas Cavalry and lost both legs at the Battle of Wilsons Creek ) about the  whereabouts of Bill Carson.  Half Soldier also tells AE that Carson re-enlisted, and that he lost an eye, and that AE can find out more information from the whore Maria in the town of Santa Ana ( prehaps actually Dona Ana). Maria talks.

End of March - 1862

AE is at Ft. Marcy outside of Santa Fe, New Mexico Territory. He finds out that Canby and the Union Forces have cut the Confederates to pieces at the Battles of Apache Canyon & Glorietta. If Carson is taken
alive as a prisoner he will be sent to Batterville Camp (900 miles East).
                                     
AE leaves for Batterville along the Santa Fe Trail, traveling at an average of 30 miles a day he reaches the vicinity of Batterville in a  month. (what makes the most sense is for Batterville to be near Ft. Leavenworth, Kansas & St. Joseph, Missouri).
 
Mid May -1862         

AE waylays a Union Sergeant newly assigned to the camp assumes his identity, and awaits the possible arrival of Bill Carson   while running a black market ring at the camp.


TUCO’s Timeline

December -1861

Tuco in a ghost town hideout is attacked by three bounty hunters, he kills two and wounds one. On his escape route out, three more bounty hunters shoot him off his horse. Tuco is "saved" by Blondie.

Blondie’s con game begins. Blondie takes Tuco into Scorro, Texas, and collects the bounty. Before Tuco is hung Blondie shoots the rope and                              they escape North out of town and into New Mexico Territory to lay low until things cool off for a while.

· here occurs the First Major Time Jump in the film.

Mid March - 1862     

El Paso, second Tuco hanging (observed by AE). Blondie and Tuco (B&T) escape again north into New Mexico Territory. Blondie severs relationship takes Tuco’s half of the reward and leaves him 70 miles out in the middle of nowhere.  Tuco heads to the town of Dona Ana,
New Mexico Territory, arriving in the early evening terribly dehydrated. He rearms at the gunsmiths.

Tuco recovered, recruits some of his old henchmen to track down Blondie

· Second Time Jump

April 7th - 1862           

Santa Fe, New Mexico Territory, Sibley’s Brigade is retreating through town. Tuco spies Blondie’s saddle rig & horse. Blondie kills the three men that Tuco has recruited, but is caught by Tuco.

Blondie, about to be hung in his hotel room by Tuco is saved by a  cannon shot from an artillery barrage that blows out the floor under Tuco. Blondie escapes back to Texas (250 miles + or -) about 6 days travel.

Second week of April - 1862   

The Scorro, New Mexico Territory sequence (fits in here).
 
Tuco tracks Blondie South back down to Texas by following his campfires. Three campfires (50 miles a day more or less).
 
April 15th  - 1862   

Blondie & Shorty are running the con game again in San Elizario, Texas. Tuco captures Blondie & Shorty hangs. Tuco marches Blondie north back into New Mexico planning a special surprise for his friend.         

April 17th - 1862             

Tuco gets supplies (food, water, water basin, parasol) in Dona Ana  and marches Blondie into the "Journada del Muerta" (March of Death) desert, 100 miles stretching North to South with no water.

B&T meet "The Carriage of the Spirits" (an ambushed Confederate 3rd regiment Headquarters wagon full of bodies). Tuco begins to rob the dead but discovers Bill Carson/Jackson barely alive.

A delirious Bill Carson/Jackson tells Tuco about the buried gold in the Sad Hill Cemetery, Tuco asks about the name on the grave, but Bill Carson/Jackson begins to go into convulsions and demands water.  Bill Carson/Jackson dies but tells Blondie the name on the
grave.

Tuco now must save Blondie, so he loads him in the carriage and heads for help.

April 18th -1862               

B&T arrive at night at Confederate Picket Post find out they are at a place called Apache Canyon. Tuco asks for the closest infirmary and finds out that he is near his brothers San Antonio Mission hospital.

April 19th - 1862               

B&T arrive at San Antonio Mission.

· Third Time Jump

May - 1862                       

B&T leave San Antonio Mission cross the Rio Grande and head North into the dry Plains of San Agustine passing around the Union stronghold of Ft. Craig. Tuco has a map and talks about heading Northwest and the Sierra Magdalena on their left and about crossing back across the Rio Grande and then going all the way                across Texas (to the East).

 B&T are captured by a Union Cavalry patrol North and West of Ft. Craig.

· Fourth Time Jump

July - 1862 

B&T marched into Batterville Camp, from Ft. Craig, 1,020 miles ( at a pace of about 20 + or - miles a day, over the Santa Fe trail. It would have taken them about 50 days) to this fictitious camp  (closest real Union POW camp was in Illinois). This site also is located near the longest railroad existing at the time (St. Joseph & Hanibal RR) west of the Mississippi.

Tuco tortured and tells AE that Sad Hill near Ft. Smith Arkansas is the name of the cemetery. Tuco & Wallace to St, Joseph & Hanibal RR. After ten hours on the train Tuco escapes and  catches the next train back.  Tuco track’s AE & Blondie South  towards Ft. Smith, and Sad Hill.

AE & Blondie & AE’s gang traveling about 30 miles per day and  Tuco traveling about 40 miles per day both reach Ft. Smith at the same time.  ( Ft. Smith, Arkansas changed hands several times during the Civil War and makes a good candidate for the  battered town and its on a major river the Arkansas.)

Tuco kills one armed bounty hunter who has been on the lookout for him for eight months.

B&T kill AE’s gang and head for Sad Hill.

2nd week in July 1862

B&T blunder upon a battle for Langston or Langstone bridge over the Arkansas River. The small cemetery nearby at Sad Hill has swollen with the dead from the various skirmishes & battles in the border area of Northwest Arkansas ( Pea Ridge (Elkhorn Tavern) was on March 6-8th  1862, US Casualties 1, 349, CS Casualties 4,600).

B&T&AE shoot out at Sad Hill.

 8)
 



Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: The Firecracker on September 21, 2006, 09:16:30 PM
Did you lay in bed nights thinking this up?


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: The Peacemaker on September 21, 2006, 09:23:14 PM
Great stuff Joe.  8)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on September 21, 2006, 09:54:41 PM
Quote
Did you lay in bed nights thinking this up?


A bit   8) but its not just made up, its mostly actual historical events and how they have to weave into the films story line.

The Texas 3rd Cavaly is real.

Sibley's 7th Texas Cavalry (7th Mounted Volunteers) 3rd regiment is real.

The date of Sibley's retreat out of Santa Fe is the actual date it happened.

All of the "con games" hangings occur in Texas.

And one interesting conclusion is the possibility that Jackson actually killed the real Bill Carson. It was highly unlikely that given the time frame presented in the film that he would have had time to get a snuff box embroidered with a ficticious name.

And the other is Jackson's connection to "Half Soldier" who must have served with him since he knows so much about Jackson.



Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Sanjuro on September 22, 2006, 12:01:34 AM
That's very impressive. That makes me realize again that Leone did a deep research and used it in the movie. Thank you, Joe!


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on September 22, 2006, 04:52:53 AM
I'll post a map when I can too  8)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Tuco the ugly on September 22, 2006, 08:04:50 AM
great job!!
thanks cigar joe!!
 8)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Cusser on September 22, 2006, 08:13:30 PM
I've always assumed that the morning hanging of Shorty Larson and the desert torture/carriage of the spirits (Bill Carson) was all the same day (a real long one for Blondie!!!).


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on September 22, 2006, 09:58:30 PM
Yea that's what I always thought too, but when Tuco finally rides up to Blondies last campsite at that final campfire, on his horse there is no wooden basin or the parisol, so he had to pick those up somewhere. So the extra day also would give them time to get up to the Journada del Muerta desert.  ;)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: sadhill on September 23, 2006, 01:30:34 PM
Great timeline! I usually put together visuals, you sir researched American history and put this film into it's perspective.  Thank-you


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on September 24, 2006, 06:07:19 PM
Great, Great, GREAT work, CJ! You have my undying admiration and gratitude. Can't wait to see the map.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on September 24, 2006, 09:24:06 PM
I got the southern half done, working on the middle section.  8)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on September 28, 2006, 05:10:36 PM
Okay, having had time to study the timeline some more, I have a few questions.

Quote
The sole separated survivors, all wounded, are Corporal Jackson, Stevens, and Baker.  At the beginning of the second week of February back in Dallas a military tribunal conducts an inquiry and acquits Corporal Jackson and Stevens.

Jackson either changes his name to Bill Carson and telegraphs ahead to re-enlist in Sibley’s Brigade, then hops a stage to El Paso, or Jackson, kills the real Bill Carson who is already on his way to join  Sibley  and assumes his identity. Baker belatedly arrives back in Dallas and finds out that Jackson has vanished.


Baker back in El Paso, hires Angel Eyes to find Jackson and kill Stevens.

Baker and Stevens seem a little old to enlist and serve, don't they? And given Stevens spread, wouldn't he prefer to support the war effort financially rather than bodily? In fact, I would expect him to make the requisite payments to the authorities to keep his sons from having to serve.

Once Baker and Jackson are acquitted, why is their service done? Wouldn't they be required to abide by the terms of their enlistment and return to duty? Let's say Jackson deserts and assumes the identity of Bill Carson; okay, how is it that Baker can go home? Has the inquiry taken a toll on his health, causing him to be mustered out?

If the three men have hidden the gold in Arkansas (as seems to be the implication), why would Jackson allow himself to be taken off to New Mexico, far away? Isn't he worried that Baker (or maybe even Stevens) will try to get the gold? Even if Jackson is the only one who knows exactly where the gold is, isn't he going to be worried that it will nonetheless be found in his absence? Wouldn't he want to stay as close as possible? What's his motivation for going to New Mexico, anyway?

Joe, I'm not trying to sharpshoot your timeline, I just want to be sure you've covered all the angles. Might as well make the thing rock-solid, eh?

(BTW, how do you know exactly where the Shorty Larson hanging occurs?)

Keep up the good work!


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Juan Miranda on September 28, 2006, 06:05:09 PM
Yay!
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/Tarkyhitch/mugs2.gif)

Very promising stuff, looking forward to seeing the final results.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on September 29, 2006, 08:00:33 PM
Quote
Baker and Stevens seem a little old to enlist and serve, don't they? And given Stevens spread, wouldn't he prefer to support the war effort financially rather than bodily? In fact, I would expect him to make the requisite payments to the authorities to keep his sons from having to serve.


Once Baker and Jackson are acquitted, why is their service done? Wouldn't they be required to abide by the terms of their enlistment and return to duty? Let's say Jackson deserts and assumes the identity of Bill Carson; okay, how is it that Baker can go home? Has the inquiry taken a toll on his health, causing him to be mustered out?

Stevens seems to be limping around no? and Baker may be bed ridden, (But his uniform tunic is on the chair, and his hat is there) so he's recovering from the attack on the paymasters wagon, I believe,  and Baker suspects Jackson took the gold and Stevens is connected in some way. 


Quote
If the three men have hidden the gold in Arkansas (as seems to be the implication), why would Jackson allow himself to be taken off to New Mexico, far away? Isn't he worried that Baker (or maybe even Stevens) will try to get the gold? Even if Jackson is the only one who knows exactly where the gold is, isn't he going to be worried that it will nonetheless be found in his absence? Wouldn't he want to stay as close as possible? What's his motivation for going to New Mexico, anyway?

Again, I don't think the three hid the gold just Jackson, Baker wouldn't need to find him if he knew, and I don't think Stevens knows much either. Stevens seems to me to be the most innocent of the three.

I think Jackson wanted to just disappear.  Maybe he knew Baker would be the SOB he was.

Quote
Joe, I'm not trying to sharpshoot your timeline, I just want to be sure you've covered all the angles. Might as well make the thing rock-solid, eh?

(BTW, how do you know exactly where the Shorty Larson hanging occurs?)

No I understand, its good to ask questions, and the scenario makes the most sense.

Baker suspects both Jackson & Stevens, but I think only Jackson took and hid it.

Stevens would have told AE to save his life if he knew I think, he spilled everything else.

So my only question is why did Jackson visit Stevens and tell him his new identity?

There were not many towns in West Texas in 1862, Franklin (El Paso) Scorro, San Elizario, and Isleta (from General Grant's map, and others of the same vintage), so I just picked one of the Mexican villages since it looked in the film like an adobe town.

All the hangings are in Texas based on the reading of the sentences each one mentions "the laws of this state" New Mexico was a territory so that points to West Texas. I'll post the maps soon and it will become clearer. 


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on September 30, 2006, 04:54:40 PM
Quote
Stevens seems to be limping around no? and Baker may be bed ridden, (But his uniform tunic is on the chair, and his hat is there)

Well spotted! Thanks, Joe, I've always missed that.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on October 01, 2006, 09:03:17 AM
Ok here is the overall picture showing the major movements of the characters superimposed upon an 1859 map on the West.

(http://img429.imageshack.us/img429/7132/west1859om1.jpg)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on October 01, 2006, 09:33:50 AM
This is the first detail map (of three) showing New Mexico-Mexico-Texas Border circa 1863 with the possible GBU storyline locations. Sibley's Brigade march north is shown in yellow line, the retreat is shown in red dots.

Its pretty neat to see all the little place names, rivers, springs, stage roads, trails and geographical features.

I didn't put all the Civil War Actions on the map

Col. John Baylor's Texas militia occupied Ft. Bliss (El Paso) in July 1861, and pushed up into New Mexico. Ft. Filmore was abandoned to the Texans and its garrison commanded by Major Issac Lynde headed to Ft. Stanton (now I wonder if any connection to Arch, lol.)  Lynde's retreating forces were overtaken by the Texans at St. Augustin Springs, Lynde surrendered on July 27, 1861.

Ft. Stanton, and Ft. Thorn were abandoned after Lynde's surrender the forces there headed for Ft. Craig and Albuquerque.

The California Column (200 mounted riflemen) commanded by Capt. Sherod Hunter was sent West by Sibley to Tuscon which they occupied on February 28, 1862.

(http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/6215/gbudet1dh7.jpg)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Silenzio on October 01, 2006, 09:42:39 AM
Wow! Cigar Joe, you rule.

Yay!
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/Tarkyhitch/mugs2.gif)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Juan Miranda on October 01, 2006, 10:32:48 AM
Fabulous work indeed CJ.

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/Tarkyhitch/braw.gif)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Tuco the ugly on October 01, 2006, 11:21:25 AM
CJ you're great!!!!! 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: marmota-b on October 01, 2006, 03:40:58 PM
Wonderful job, CJ!


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on October 01, 2006, 04:57:23 PM
This is the greatest thread on this board ever!


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on October 01, 2006, 06:20:27 PM
Thanks guys, here is the next section north.

When Sibley arrived in the vicinity of Fort Craig, Canby with a force of 4,000 made up of regular Federal Troops, New Mexico Volunteers (including a regiment commaded by Christofer "Kit" Carson), and militia refused to be drawn into battle. Sibley decided to by pass the fort by crossing the Rio Grande downstream of the fort and fording the river again 6 miles north at Valverde.    Canby sent troops north to stop the Confederates at Valverde Ford.

The Confederates charge early in the battle nearly succeded, but it was repulsed by Colorado infantry. Several Union attacks were beaten off by the Confederates. Sibley attacked again and captured a Union artillery battery.  Canby withdrew back to the fort.

Union losses 68 killed, 160 wounded. 25 taken prisoner, Confederates losses, 36 dead, 150 wounded, the Confederates also lost half of their cavalry mounts and had to convert one of their regiments to infantry.

Valverde Ford saw the only documented use of lancers in the Civil War.

(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1286/gbudet2copycf9.jpg)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Silenzio on October 01, 2006, 08:41:59 PM
Thanks guys, here is the next section north.

(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1286/gbudet2copycf9.jpg)

Thanks, CJ.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on October 01, 2006, 09:35:37 PM
North section of New Mexico Map.

This shows Sibley's advance to Santa Fe which he reached on March 7th, 1862.

The Brigade was critically short of supplies and the Union forces had removed the remaining military supplies from Santa Fe with a 120 wagon army train to Ft. Union.

Sibley prepared to march on Ft. Union which had 800 defenders (he had been the forts commander the year before) and he was familiar with the forts defenses. But he did not know that a stronger earthwork fortification had been constructed or that troops from Colorado and California had been heading to New Mexico to counter him.

A 1,300-man force from Colorado commanded by Colonel John Slough, had marched 172 miles through deep snow and over Raton Pass and arrived at Ft. Union in only 5 days. Slough, ignored Canby's order to remain at Ft. Union and made immediate plans to march against the Confederates.

On March 22, 1,348 men, the Ft. Union troops,  the Colorado Volunteers, and a company of the 4th Regiment New Mexico Volunteers marched South on the Santa Fe Trail, Meanwhile Sibley and his troops were moving up the trail to Ft. Union. On March 26 at the mouth of Apache Canyon about 15 miles from Santa Fe the two armies met. The Colorado Volunteers charged the Confederates and forced a retreat 32 CS troops killed, 43 wounded, and 70 taken prisoner.

to be continued....




Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on October 01, 2006, 09:42:07 PM
 Continued....


Two days later at Pidgeon's Ranch a hostelry on the Santa Fe Trail at the east end of Glorieta Pass the two armys fought again in a 6 hour battle that included 850 US troops and 1,200 CS troops, with a series of artillery strikes, cavalry and infantry charges, sharpshooters, bayonet assalts, and hand to hand combat with pistols  & kinves. US lost 38 killed, 64 wounded, and 20 captured. CS lost 36 killed and 60 wounded, and 25 captured. The Confederated held the field at the end of the battle.

However, during the battle a 450 man US contingent led by Col. John Chivington and guided by Lieutenant Colonel Manuel Chaves, circled through the mountians around Glorieta and destroyed the Confederate supply train. The CS forces were forced to withdraw back to Santa Fe.

Meanwhile Canby had left Ft. Craig with 1,200 US troops and was headed North at Scorro when he learned of Glorieta. He continued to march to Albuquerque where the remaining CS supplies were stored. This pincer movement forced Sibley to abandon the campaign and retreat from New Mexico. Sibley evacuated Albuquerque on April 12. Canby did not want to force a battle where he would capture and incur responsibility for a large number of prisoners.

US & CS troops did fight a skirmish at Peralta a few miles south of Albuquerque, and this was view as further encouragement for the Confederates to depart New Mexico.

Sibley and the CS army continued the retreat making a brutal 100 mile detour around Ft. Craig through deserts and mountains. By the second week of July all CS troops had left New Mexico. Sibley's initial force of 3,700 had been reduced through death, wounds, illness, capture, and desertion to a bit more than 1,500 during the six month campaign.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on October 01, 2006, 09:51:03 PM
Northern New Mexico Territory

(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1264/gbudet3copygt4.jpg)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Hanley on October 02, 2006, 02:47:54 AM
Northern New Mexico Territory

(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1264/gbudet3copygt4.jpg)

You have done a great job at illustrating the historical context of the GBU.  It's been a while since I looked at the Sibley campaign - previously, I couldn't find the dates when Sibley retreated from Sante Fe. I would appreciate a reference to these dates.
At a glance, it looks like you placed Tuco's hanging scenes in Mexico (correct me if I'm mistaken), but there are direct clues to the whereabouts in the film. The first hanging is at "Mesilla" - you can just about read "Bank of Mesilla" from one of the DVD frames. The second hanging is at the town of Valverde - you can see "Bank of Valverde" and "Post Office of Valverde" on the DVD frame.
According to the original script, the opening scene was Paso Negro (perhaps a play on El Paso) and Engel Eyes visits Kozlowski's Ranch (still exists today) on the Sante Fe Trail (where you correctly placed it).
My book project is virtually rounded off but unfortunately I have very little time at present (2 small kids!). I will try to get the layout done in Adobe In-Design asap.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on October 02, 2006, 05:20:10 AM
Quote
At a glance, it looks like you placed Tuco's hanging scenes in Mexico (correct me if I'm mistaken), but there are direct clues to the whereabouts in the film. The first hanging is at "Mesilla" - you can just about read "Bank of Mesilla" from one of the DVD frames. The second hanging is at the town of Valverde - you can see "Bank of Valverde" and "Post Office of Valverde" on the DVD frame.
According to the original script, the opening scene was Paso Negro (perhaps a play on El Paso) and Engel Eyes visits Kozlowski's Ranch (still exists today) on the Sante Fe Trail (where you correctly placed it).


actually I place them all ( the hangings) in Texas

Well the main reasons I placed all the hangings in Texas was that all the sentences read aloud by the various hanging parties all say something to the effect of ''Contrary to the laws of this State", New Mexico was not a state at that time period but a territory, (the same statement is said during Shorty's hanging) and also if you watch the scene where Blondie first splits the folding money with Tuco they are Confederate States of America bills which he is splitting which would also point to Texas. New Mexico remained in the Union with US money.

As far as the sets I was looking for clues and you may be right,  but a lot of the sets doubled as different towns so it could be easy to make a flub during the filming.  

So maybe during the filming it was decided to make the hangings all in Texas by the readings of the sentences, or maybe it was a oversite with the sets, and a mistake with the script or a direction change during the filming. But either by coincidence or design the film meshes pretty well with the events of the time.   8)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Hanley on October 02, 2006, 09:19:06 AM


actually I place them all ( the hangings) in Texas

Well the main reasons I placed all the hangings in Texas was that all the sentences read allowed by the various hanging parties all say something to the effect of ''Contrary to the laws of this State", New Mexico was not a state at that time period but a territory, (the same statement is said during Shorty's hanging) and also if you watch the scene where Blondie first sptits the folding money with Tuco they are Confederate States of America bills which he is splitting which would also point to Texas. New Mexico remained in the Union with US money.

As far as the sets I was looking for clues and you may be right,  but a lot of the sets doubled as different towns so it could be easy to make a flub during the filming.  

So maybe during the filming it was decided to make the hangings all in Texas by the readings of the sentences, or maybe it was a oversite with the sets, and a mistake with the script or a direction change during the filming. But either by coincidence or design the film meshes pretty well with the events of the time.   8)

Good point about the Territory of NM using US money! - I will check this out and I will edit my book accordingly, and give you the credit. I noted, though, that the $100 Confederate notes Blondie got as reward were issued in 1862 (fitting with the 1862 setting throughout the film), although post-Sibley.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on October 02, 2006, 10:26:14 AM
I'm not trying to be presumptious, but I thought I'd take CJ's excellent timeline and make it strictly chronological. In the process I made a few changes, which everyone can ignore. However, as far as I'm concerned, the chronology of the film cannot be violated. Unlike other SL films, GBU proceeds sequentially; there are no time displacements. Others may disagree, but that is a principle I feel I have to abide by.

So, for example, I see a time jump between the opening of the film and Tuco's first meeting with Blondie. The massacre at the Steven's farm and Baker's murder have to occur between those two events. Also, the Confederate fort scene has to come after the events in Santa Fe. Undoubtedly, this reordering probably plays havoc with CJ's painstaking efforts, but there it is.

I've also regularized some punctuation and spelling. Again, forgive my seeming presumption. The most significant change here is "Betterville" for "Batterville." I've listened to both the English and Italian dubs carefully, and both seem to say "Betterville" to my ear. That is also the spelling Frayling uses.

So here is CJ's great timeline once again, but made strictly chronological.

1861
late April or early May
Soon after the start of the War Between The States a group of Southern patriots that include men with the names of Baker, Stevens, and  Jackson leave their West Texas homes and ride to Dallas where the Texas 3rd Cavalry is organizing.

Early July to December
The regiment leaves Dallas and heads for Missouri on the "Texas Road" through the Indian Territory to Ft. Smith, Arkansas. They participate in the battle of Wilson’s Creek on August 10, 1861, CS casualties 1,095, US casualties 1,235 . The Regiment remains stationed in the border area of Missouri-Arkansas-Indian Territory. The 3rd Cavalry fights in the Battles of Chustenahlah on December 26, 1861.

Meanwhile, Tuco, in a ghost town hideout, is attacked by three bounty hunters. He kills two and wounds one.

1862
End of January to February
Jackson, Baker, and Stevens are detailed as a part of a 25 man Paymasters detachment for I Corp of the Trans-Mississippi District. Around the first of February, near Ft. Smith, they blunder into a Union Cavalry recognizance party. In the heat of battle the Paymaster’s wagon and $200,000 in gold coins disappears.  The sole separated survivors, all wounded, are Corporal Jackson, Stevens, and Baker.  At the beginning of the second week of February back in Dallas a military tribunal conducts an inquiry and acquits Corporal Jackson and Stevens.

Jackson either changes his name to Bill Carson and telegraphs ahead to re-enlist in Sibley’s Brigade, then hops a stage to El Paso, or Jackson, kills the real Bill Carson who is already on his way to join Sibley and assumes his identity. Baker belatedly arrives back in Dallas and finds out that Jackson has vanished.

Jackson heads north from El Paso and he visits Maria his "soiled dove" paramour in the New Mexico Territorial town of Dona Ana.  He reaches Sibley’s Brigade joining the 7th Texas Cavalry (7th Mounted Volunteers) 3rd Regiment on or about February 25th, near Scorro, New Mexico, Territory.

Early March 
Baker, back in El Paso, hires Angel Eyes to find Jackson and kill Stevens.

Mid March
Angel Eyes (AE) rides out to the Stevens’s hacienda, questions Stevens and learns Jackson changed his name to Bill Carson and joined Sibley’s Brigade. Stevens also inadvertently spills the beans about the missing cash box. Stevens gives AE $1000 dollars to try and buy his life, and for AE to kill Baker to boot, but AE kills Stevens and one of his sons.  AE goes back to Baker and collects his money and kills him. AE is now on a personal hunt for Carson.

Three more bounty hunters shoot Tuco off his horse. Tuco is "saved" by Blondie.

Blondie’s con game begins. Blondie takes Tuco into Scorro, Texas, and collects the bounty. Before Tuco is hung Blondie shoots the rope and they escape north out of town and into New Mexico Territory to lay low until things cool off for a while.

In El Paso as AE watches the second hanging of Tuco "The Rat" Ramierez, he questions "Half Soldier" (who was in the 3rd Texas Cavalry and lost both legs at the Battle of Wilsons Creek ) about the  whereabouts of Bill Carson.  Half Soldier also tells AE that Carson re-enlisted, and that he lost an eye, and that AE can find out more information from the whore Maria in the town of Santa Ana ( perhaps actually Dona Ana).

Blondie and Tuco (B&T) escape again north into New Mexico Territory. Blondie severs relationship, takes Tuco’s half of the reward and leaves him 70 miles out in the middle of nowhere.

AE interviews Maria in Santa Ana (Dona Ana). Learns Carson has left with the 3rd.

Tuco heads to Dona Ana, arriving in the early evening terribly dehydrated. He rearms at the gunsmith’s.

Tuco recovered, recruits some of his old henchmen to track down Blondie (the Grotto scene).

April 7th           
Santa Fe, New Mexico Territory, Sibley’s Brigade is retreating through town. Tuco spies Blondie’s saddle rig & horse. Blondie kills the three men that Tuco has recruited, but is caught by Tuco.

Blondie, about to be hung in his hotel room by Tuco, is saved by a cannon shot from an artillery barrage that blows out the floor under Tuco. Blondie escapes back to Texas (250 miles + or -) about 6 days travel.

AE is at Ft. Marcy outside of Santa Fe, New Mexico Territory. He finds out that Canby and the Union Forces have cut the Confederates to pieces at the Battles of Apache Canyon & Glorietta. If Carson is taken alive as a prisoner he will be sent to Betterville Camp (900 miles East).
                                     
AE leaves for Betterville along the Santa Fe Trail, traveling at an average of 30 miles a day he will reach the vicinity of Betterville in a month. (what makes the most sense is for Betterville to be near Ft. Leavenworth, Kansas & St. Joseph, Missouri).

Second week of April
The Socorro, New Mexico Territory sequence (fits in here).

Tuco tracks Blondie South back down to Texas by following his campfires. Three campfires (50 miles a day more or less).

April 15th  
Blondie & Shorty are running the con game again in San Elizario, Texas. Tuco captures Blondie and Shorty hangs. Tuco marches Blondie north back into New Mexico, planning a special surprise for his friend.         

April 17th              
Tuco gets supplies (food, water, water basin, parasol) in Dona Ana and marches Blondie into the "Journada del Muerta" (March of Death) desert, 100 miles, stretching north to south, with no water.

B&T meet "The Carriage of the Spirits" (an ambushed Confederate 3rd regiment Headquarters wagon full of bodies). Tuco begins to rob the dead but discovers Bill Carson/Jackson barely alive.

A delirious Bill Carson/Jackson tells Tuco about the buried gold in the Sad Hill Cemetery, Tuco asks about the name on the grave, but Bill Carson/Jackson begins to go into convulsions and demands water.  Bill Carson/Jackson dies but tells Blondie the name on the grave.

Tuco now must save Blondie, so he loads him in the carriage and heads for help.

April 18th             
B&T arrive at night at Confederate picket post find out they are at a place called Apache Canyon. Tuco asks for the closest infirmary and finds out that he is near his brother’s San Antonio Mission hospital.

April 19th              
B&T arrive at San Antonio Mission.

May                       
B&T leave San Antonio Mission cross the Rio Grande and head north into the dry Plains of San Augustine passing around the Union stronghold of Ft. Craig. Tuco has a map and talks about heading northwest and the Sierra Magdalena on their left and about crossing back across the Rio Grande and then going all the way across Texas (to the east).

B&T are captured by a Union cavalry patrol north and west of Ft. Craig.

Mid May         
AE waylays a Union sergeant newly assigned to Betterville, assumes his identity, and awaits the possible arrival of Bill Carson while running a black market ring at the camp.
July
B&T marched into Betterville Camp, from Ft. Craig, 1,020 miles (at a pace of about 20 + or - miles a day, over the Santa Fe trail. It would have taken them about 50 days) to this fictitious camp (closest real Union POW camp was in Illinois). This site also is located near the longest railroad existing at the time (St. Joseph & Hanibal RR) west of the Mississippi.

Tuco tortured and tells AE that Sad Hill near Ft. Smith, Arkansas is the name of the cemetery. Tuco & Wallace to St. Joseph & Hanibal RR. After ten hours on the train Tuco escapes and catches the next train back. Tuco tracks AE & Blondie South towards Ft. Smith and Sad Hill.

AE & Blondie & AE’s gang traveling about 30 miles per day and Tuco traveling about 40 miles per day both reach Ft. Smith at the same time.  (Ft. Smith, Arkansas changed hands several times during the Civil War and makes a good candidate for the battered town and it’s on a major river, the Arkansas.)

Ft. Smith. Tuco kills one-armed bounty hunter who has been on the lookout for him for eight months.

B&T kill AE’s gang and head for Sad Hill.

2nd week of July
B&T blunder upon a battle for Langston or Langstone bridge over the Arkansas River. The small cemetery nearby at Sad Hill has swollen with the dead from the various skirmishes & battles in the border area of Northwest Arkansas ( Pea Ridge (Elkhorn Tavern) was on March 6-8th  1862, US Casualties 1, 349, CS Casualties 4,600).

B&T&AE shoot out at Sad Hill.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on October 02, 2006, 05:00:16 PM
Quote
So, for example, I see a time jump between the opening of the film and Tuco's first meeting with Blondie. The massacre at the Steven's farm and Baker's murder have to occur between those two events. Also, the Confederate fort scene has to come after the events in Santa Fe. Undoubtedly, this reordering probably plays havoc with CJ's painstaking efforts, but there it is.


DJ, I don't see exactly where it changed so point it out seems like we are on the same page. I thought I had The fort scene with LVC after the retreat from Santa Fe. I'll go back & look. I looked, I put it after the battle of Apache Canyon and Glorieta but I don't think it matters that much since either way the wounded are left behind.

I did it the way I did so that I could figure it out. I did Carson/Jackson so that I could get the events down from the burial of the gold next to Arch Stanton and the date on his grave.

Tuco I backtracked from his meeting with Al Mulock in the bath, eight months  ;D.

I'll go along with the flow on the Batterville Betterville change too.  8)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on October 02, 2006, 05:56:13 PM
here are sketch Maps of Sibley's Brigade from

The Civil War in New Mexico
by Charles Bennett  :

(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/5566/image7in7.jpg)

(http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/843/image8rt0.jpg)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on October 03, 2006, 08:51:18 AM
CJ, you are on a roll!

Got a couple of questions. First, in the Grotto scene, one of the banditos tells Tuco that they'd heard he'd been killed in Albuquerque. Could this refer to one of the hangings, perhaps one we don't see? Of course, it could refer to something outside the film entirely.

At Apache Canyon, the Confederate non-com checks Tuco's orders, which, we assume, are the legitimate orders someone in the Carriage of the Spirits was carrying at the time of his death. According to what is said, the carriage is coming from "San Rafael." Any idea what that may be about?

Regarding AE knocking off some hapless sergeant on his was to Betterville: what about Corporal Wallace? Could it be that AE and Mario Brega both assumed false identities at the same time? And where did "Wallace" and the rest of the gang come from? Did AE recruit these guys along the Santa Fe trail en route to Betterville?

Finally, when do you reckon AE and Tuco and Blondie first met? Pre 1861?

Hey, inquiring minds want to know.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Jon0 on October 03, 2006, 11:10:16 AM
This is really impressive. :)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on October 03, 2006, 09:30:47 PM
Quote
Got a couple of questions. First, in the Grotto scene, one of the banditos tells Tuco that they'd heard he'd been killed in Albuquerque. Could this refer to one of the hangings, perhaps one we don't see? Of course, it could refer to something outside the film entirely.

I don't think so, outside the film as you say, prehaps it was another ambush with bounty hunters, and lets say the quarry got shot in the face, which could mistakely be identified as Tuco, could be any one of a number of scenarios similar, think one up  8)

Quote
At Apache Canyon, the Confederate non-com checks Tuco's orders, which, we assume, are the legitimate orders someone in the Carriage of the Spirits was carrying at the time of his death. According to what is said, the carriage is coming from "San Rafael." Any idea what that may be about?

Thats another mystery, it could be someplace as simple as stage way-station, a roadside shrine, a ranch, someplace that was important in the campaign at that time, so it may have been the site of an encampment used by Sibley's Brigade that was known by that name, who knows.

Quote
Regarding AE knocking off some hapless sergeant on his was to Betterville: what about Corporal Wallace? Could it be that AE and Mario Brega both assumed false identities at the same time? And where did "Wallace" and the rest of the gang come from? Did AE recruit these guys along the Santa Fe trail en route to Betterville?

As for Wallace, yea that's a possibility, AE could have gathered these guys on his way to Betterville easily I would think. Or he just may have found Wallace already at the camp and made use of him. Any likely scenario that fits would work, I would think.

Quote
Finally, when do you reckon AE and Tuco and Blondie first met? Pre 1861?

Well judging from Tuco's various crimes, he's been in business at least 10 years, lol. AE would have come across him or at least heard of some of his nefarious exploits, no?,  ;).

As for Blondie he seems to be a schemer, con-artist, who would have to keep on the move throughout the Southwest just to keep up a supply of fresh pidgeons ready to pluck, so he would also probably know who AE is by his reputation and vice versa.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on October 04, 2006, 09:40:38 AM
Blondie could be a relative newcomer to the region, though. News of the hanging con would have gotten around. He would have to stage the hangings rapidly, then get out of the game before HE began showing up on wanted posters.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Groggy on October 04, 2006, 04:56:28 PM
Forgive me if my memory is a bit fuzzy, but wasn't the California Column a Union outfit commanded by James Carleton? 

Otherwise, great job.  I've long been interested in this forgotten theater of the Civil War and it's really neat that it's prominently featured (if obliquely) in one of my favorite films.  ;)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on October 04, 2006, 05:04:43 PM
It could be, you are probably right,  I was going by what the map labled the column that split off from Sibley's brigade, but mow it may be the line of march to Ft. Thorn from Tuscon. Anyway here's a link:

http://www.militarymuseum.org/CaliforniaColumn.html


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: il brutto on October 05, 2006, 05:04:33 AM
A real great great job!
I have one questions to ask:
When did Jackson hide the gold in the unknown grave?

We know he saw Arch Stanton’s grave because he told Blondie about it. Now, Stanton died on Feb. 3rd 1862 if I remember well, and the inquiry took place on the second week of February.
I guess he did the job during this two facts, that means between Feb 3-4th and 12-13th.
What do you think?

Another question: where did he hide the unknown body?


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on October 05, 2006, 07:58:28 AM
Maybe there never was an unknown body. Say Jackson was part of the burial detail after his unit was ambushed; he waits for an auspicious moment, then creates a grave to hide the cashbox loot in. At this point, before the battle of Pea Ridge (thanks CJ!), the graveyard was still relatively small (am I right in thinking Tuco finds Arch Stanton's grave somewhat close to the center of the graveyard?).


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: marmota-b on October 05, 2006, 08:43:55 AM
(am I right in thinking Tuco finds Arch Stanton's grave somewhat close to the center of the graveyard?).

Yes, you're right.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: iceman on October 05, 2006, 06:19:48 PM
A real great great job!
I have one questions to ask:
When did Jackson hide the gold in the unknown grave?

We know he saw Arch Stanton’s grave because he told Blondie about it. Now, Stanton died on Feb. 3rd 1862 if I remember well, and the inquiry took place on the second week of February.
I guess he did the job during this two facts, that means between Feb 3-4th and 12-13th.
What do you think?

Another question: where did he hide the unknown body?


Maybe he dug the grave next to Stantons and took a "unknown" cross from another grave and just stuck it in the Empty hole he just Dug. ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

One thing that puzzles me a little
Stanton died Feb 62,.... the shoot out took place in July 62

Stantons skeleton and clothes look like they have been there for years. Would his Flesh and clothes have disintegrated so much in just 4/5 months ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

ICE


 


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: The Peacemaker on October 05, 2006, 09:33:27 PM

Stantons skeleton and clothes look like they have been there for years. Would his Flesh and clothes have disintegrated so much in just 4/5 months ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

ICE


 

Movies don't have to make sense, if they did do you think those cheesy action flicks of the 80's and 90's could've been made? Though, I like many of those cheesy action flicks.  ::)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on October 05, 2006, 09:36:07 PM
Very shallow grave, & carpet beatles can pick a body pretty clean in short order. my guess.

Quote
When did Jackson hide the gold in the unknown grave?

It would be shortly after the attack on the paymasters detail I would guess..


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: The Peacemaker on October 05, 2006, 09:38:21 PM
Very shallow grave, & carpet beatles can pick a body pretty clean in short order. my guess.

Yeah, plus the coffins made during the time of war would probably be cheap. Makes it easy for those carpet beatles to get in.  ;)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Spaghetti Bob on October 06, 2006, 01:19:55 AM
I have to admit that this has been an amazing thread, what with all of the semi-revisionist historical fantasy that has taken place here.

The maps are astounding. A lot of work went into them, factually and 'cinematically.'

My confession: GBU inspired me to investigate the events of the Civil War in the Trans-Mississippi West, in my junior year in college (US history class, to 1877). Until then, I thought that Civil War battles in the New Mexico - Arizona territory, were pure movie fantasy. Not so! I ended up writing a term paper on the Sibley Campaign as a chosen topic. All thanks to a movie I saw while in high school. And made by an Italian director, no less!

Anywhere else but on this board, would I be embarassed to admit that Italian Westerns inspired me to higher levels of educational endeavors!  ;D


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: il brutto on October 06, 2006, 02:22:39 AM
Maybe there never was an unknown body. Say Jackson was part of the burial detail after his unit was ambushed; he waits for an auspicious moment, then creates a grave to hide the cashbox loot in. At this point, before the battle of Pea Ridge (thanks CJ!), the graveyard was still relatively small (am I right in thinking Tuco finds Arch Stanton's grave somewhat close to the center of the graveyard?).

I agree with you that probably there were not many graves yet when Jackson hid the gold, this could explane why he chose a grave in the first row, right close to the arena. In a big cemetery as we know it, I would have hidden the gold in another grave, more central and more difficult to find.
Anyway, do you think that Sergio considered this detail in positioning the grave? I am not so sure, to me it is close to the arena just because it had to be functional to the action.
Can you imagine GB&U running from the centre of the cemetery to the arena and get ready for the shootout?


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: il brutto on October 06, 2006, 02:24:45 AM
Maybe he dug the grave next to Stantons and took a "unknown" cross from another grave and just stuck it in the Empty hole he just Dug. ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

One thing that puzzles me a little
Stanton died Feb 62,.... the shoot out took place in July 62

Stantons skeleton and clothes look like they have been there for years. Would his Flesh and clothes have disintegrated so much in just 4/5 months ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

ICE


 

Yes, it makes sense…you are also right about Stanton’s skeleton: maybe it was not considered so nice to show a deteriorated body in the 60’s. A skeleton seems more neutral I guess. Anyway, I believe that due to modern coffins, bodies today are much better protected and deteriorate slower, but I am not a pathologist and most of all I don’t want to be gruesome.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on October 06, 2006, 07:58:10 AM
The question of when everyone meets for the first time should be addressed again. AE and Tuco evidently met sometime before 1861, but Blondie and Tuco meet for the first time in GBU in their first scene together. When does Blondie meet AE? He points AE out to Tuco at Betterville, so he knows him by sight......


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: marmota-b on October 06, 2006, 10:55:36 AM
When does Blondie meet AE? He points AE out to Tuco at Betterville, so he knows him by sight......

It's Tuco who points him out; but Blondie definitelly knows AE too.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on October 22, 2006, 08:52:10 PM
I still need an explanation of why Jackson/Carson went to Stevens and told him his new identity. I can only surmise that he went to Stevens to make Baker think that Stevens was in on the job and knew about the gold, and this would buy some time and get Baker off his trail.

But why did he tell Stevens his new identity?  Again I can only surmise that Jackson/Carson was probably planning on switching identity again to throw Baker off, but got seriously wounded before he could do so. 


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on October 23, 2006, 07:23:18 AM
Maybe Jackson wanted Stevens to help him with the gold, maybe keep an eye on it for him while he was tied up in the New Mexico campaign. Or maybe he wanted to join forces with him against Baker. Either way, Stevens turned him down. The identity revelation might have been no more than a slip-up.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: il brutto on October 23, 2006, 09:30:38 AM
I don't know if the matter was already discussed, but could somebody explain me why Jackson decides to re-enlist in the Army after the inquiry, instead of going to Sadhill, get the gold and enjoying it? He could wait for a while not to raise any suspect over him, but I don't see any reason to go back to the Army.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: iceman on October 23, 2006, 04:29:56 PM
I still need an explanation of why Jackson/Carson went to Stevens and told him his new identity. I can only surmise that he went to Stevens to make Baker think that Stevens was in on the job and knew about the gold, and this would buy some time and get Baker off his trail.

But why did he tell Stevens his new identity?  Again I can only surmise that Jackson/Carson was probably planning on switching identity again to throw Baker off, but got seriously wounded before he could do so. 

Why didn't Angel Eyes get more info from Baker before he killed him..He would have got an incling which cemetery it was at least and that Carson new "The Name"...and even perhaps some "information" from Stevens before he killed him..

ICE


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: iceman on October 23, 2006, 05:48:08 PM
By the way..the Book says that when Jackson first sees the cemetery..It was the biggest one he had ever seen and there were rows of graves as for as the eye could see... so not a new one????

ICE


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on October 23, 2006, 05:58:32 PM
Yea but the book calls Blondie "Whitey" too.  8)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on October 24, 2006, 08:32:20 PM
By the way..the Book says that when Jackson first sees the cemetery..It was the biggest one he had ever seen and there were rows of graves as for as the eye could see... so not a new one????

ICE
The book was in error here. Remember, the novelization did not have the imprimatur of SL.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: iceman on October 26, 2006, 02:30:45 PM
The book was in error here. Remember, the novelization did not have the imprimatur of SL.

I thought I read that the book was published in 67 after the film and was based on the script????

ICE


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on October 26, 2006, 06:45:58 PM
Loosely based apparently, if Blondie becomes Whitey.  8)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on January 10, 2007, 07:59:39 PM
Got some great new info on the Sibley Brigade that I'll post shortly, check back  ;).


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on March 01, 2007, 08:45:17 PM
Lol well shortly ended up being about 50 days....

Part 1

OK guy’s here is an updated and expanded GBU timeline. Since first developing the original space-historical time GBU/Civil War "paradigm" I researched further into the state of the American Southwest i.e., New Mexico Territory, the Gadsden Purchase, and Texas in the period just prior to the breakout of the American Civil War and more details on Sibley’s Brigade.

I’ll break it down as before with the Jackson-Bill Carson narrative first with some side bars added then do a strict timeline for the purists ;-).


GBU’s Historical Timelines

Background Info:

By the late 1840’s the tension in the United States between free and slave states was building to a boil. Each side in the controversy was fearful of the other getting an upper hand and the new territories in the West became pawns as to whether they would be free or slave. The South was interested in the territories seized from Mexico, the present Arizona, Utah & New Mexico and they believed also that a majority of the population of the southern portion of California was pro slavery.

For a decade Southerners promoting a southern Pacific railroad were particularly interested in New Mexico and they negotiated the Gadsden Purchase in 1853 (which at that time came to be known as Arizona) solely with that in mind. New Mexico was key to Southern expansion and a port on the Pacific. Pro Southern sympathizers in the US Government proceeded to establish an almost "U" shaped overland communications and stagecoach route (The Butterfield Overland Stage Co.) from terminals in Missouri & Ft. Smith, Arkansas swinging through Texas to El Paso and then utilizing a route through the recent Gadsden Purchase to Los Angeles then up to San Francisco rather than a more direct central route.

The Mesilla Valley of the Rio Grande in New Mexico Territory formed the eastern extreme of that part of southern New Mexico called "Arizona" and contained 2/3’s of Arizona’s population most of them Mexicans but the minority Americans were mostly from Texas and far more active and aggressive in dominating political affairs and they were closely associated with staunchly pro-southern Texans living in and around El Paso.

If ever and area epitomized lawlessness and wild frontier it was Western Arizona at the time of secession. Tucson was a place of resort for traders, speculators, gamblers, horse thieves, murderers, vagrant politicians, and a center of prostitution and crime. One critic observed that those that were not permitted to live in California found Tucson welcoming. Western Arizona was in a state of anarchy The Tubac silver district area near Tucson and Pinos Altos near Mesilla were lively mining districts.

Jackson-Bill Carson

1861

Soon after the start of the War Between The States, in late April or early May of 1861, a group of Southern patriots that include men with the names of Baker, and two friends Stevens and Jackson leave their West Texas homes and take the stage to Dallas where the Texas 3rd Cavalry is mustering. In Early July the regiment leaves Dallas and heads for Missouri on the "Texas Road" through the Indian Territory to Ft. Smith, Arkansas. They participate in the battle of Wilson’s Creek on August 10, 1861, CS casualties 1,095, US casualties 1,235 . The Regiment remains stationed in the border area of Missouri-Arkansas-Indian Territory. The 3rd Cavalry fights in the Battles of Chustenahlah on December 26, 1862

At the end of January 1862 Jackson, Baker, and Stevens are detailed as a part of a 25 man Paymasters detachment for I Corps of the Trans-Mississippi District. Around the first of February, near Ft. Smith, they blunder into a Union Cavalry recognizance party. In the heat of battle the Paymasters wagon and $200,000 in gold coins disappears. The sole separated survivors, all wounded, are Jackson, Stevens, and Baker. At the beginning of the second week of February back in Dallas a military tribunal conducts an inquiry and acquits both Jackson and Stevens. Stevens is discharged and immediately heads back to his El Paso Texas hacienda.

Jackson beginning to worry about being reassigned back to points further East, either changes his name to Bill Carson and telegraphs ahead to re-enlist in Sibley’s Brigade, then hops a stage to El Paso, or Jackson, kills the real Bill Carson who is already on his way to join Sibley and assumes his identity.

The fact that Jackson has a snuff box embroidered with Bill Carson’s name points to the latter scenario (he wouldn’t have time to create an elaborate prop such as this), so in this latter scenario say Jackson after his acquittal meets a dispatch bearing corporal in Dallas on his way from Richmond to Sibley with orders to attach himself to the 7th Texas Cavalry (7th Mounted Volunteers) 3rd Regiment, the man is Jackson’s age and build and Jackson decides to kill him and take over his identity and assignment. What better way to disappear. Jackson hops the stage to El Paso to catch up with Sibley’s Brigade.

(Sibley’s Brigade or Army of New Mexico consisted of the Fourth Regiment Texas Mounted Rifles called the 1st Regiment, The Fifth Regiment Texas Mounted Rifles called the 2nd Regiment, and five companies (A,B,F,H,I) of the Seventh Regiment Texas Mounted Rifles known as the 3rd Regiment, and three independent companies of volunteers, the "Arizona Rangers", the "Brigands", and the "San Elizario Spy Company" in addition there was Teel’s Light Company B, First Texas Artillery (four cannon, & eight howitzers)and a long supply train and thousands of draft and beef animals. All in all between 2,300 to 2,500 men. The Texans were armed with practically every type of firearm in existence: squirrel guns, bear guns, buffalo guns, single & double barreled shotguns, navy revolvers, six shooters, etc., etc.)  

Wounded Baker belatedly arrives back in Dallas and finds out that Jackson has completely vanished, Baker begins to suspect that Jackson along with Stevens have the missing gold. Baker heads back to El Paso and starts to threaten and torment Stevens as to the where abouts of Jackson and the cash box, getting no satisfaction Baker hires Angle Eyes to try and find Jackson.

Jackson/Carson arrives in El Paso and attempts to find Maria his "soiled dove" paramour. However he can’t locate her so he makes a tactical mistake and visits Stevens to find out what he knows about her whereabouts. Stevens tells Jackson/Carson that he thinks she followed Colonel John Baylor’s Second Regiment Texas Mounted Rifles up into the Mesilla Valley to ply her trade.

Jackson/Carson tells Stevens his new identity at the outside chance of his not finding her and Maria coming to Stevens and inquiring for him.  Jackson/Carson heads north from El Paso after speaking to Half Soldier and he finds Maria in the New Mexico Territorial town of Santa (Dona) Ana. He spends the night and then follows Sibley’s line of march up the Rio Grande.



Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on March 01, 2007, 08:46:53 PM
Part 2

Jackson/Carson reaches Paraje where he is warned by Confederate pickets to travel around Ft. Craig by night to avoid detection by Union "spy" Companies. He leaves the river and follows the road through the Journada del Muerto desert a 100 mile short cut around the Union stronghold at Fort Craig he rides at night and rests by day to avoid detection from the spy companies. 

(Independent "Spy" Companies were the eyes & ears of both Union & Confederate armies in the Southwest, for the Confederates  Captain John Phillips "Brigands" known to the Texans as the "Santa Fe Gamblers" were a group of mountain men, gun & Indian fighters, ne’re do wells, and general trouble making rowdies (originally from Santa Fe, hence their other name) but were recruited in the Mesilla Valley to act as scouts. For the Union Army, Captain James "Paddy" Graydon an Irish immigrant and ex-army officer/saloon keeper from the abandoned Ft. Buchannan "Arizona" vicinity started an Independent Spy Company working for Colonel Canby. Graydon hatched an interesting "raid" on the Texan Camp the evening before the Battle of Valverde. With Canby’s permission Graydon packed a dozen 24 pound howitzer shells in two boxes and after packing then on to the backs of two worn out old mules he with three or four of his men crossed the Rio Grande at Ft. Craig under the cover of darkness and crept up to the Texan Camp. When they were about 500 feet from the Confederates, they lit the fuses and drove the mules towards the Texan mule herd, and beat a hasty retreat. They figured they would trot on over and join their mule brethren. On looking back Graydon and his men were horrified to see that instead of heading over to the tethered herd the two mules were following them! The two explosions sent the Confederate Camp into an uproar, and it also resulted in several hundred very thirsty Confederate Mules breaking loose and they, smelling water, headed off in a stampede to the Rio Grande where Union pickets collected them through the rest of the night. The result in the loss of mounts and teams caused the Fourth Texas Regiment to be converted into infantry and Sibley had to abandon 30 wagons containing tents, blankets, and papers of the Regiment.)     

Back to Jackson/Carson he reaches the North end of the Journada,  passes Sibley’s abandoned wagons, and re-crosses the Rio Grande at the Valverde ford observing the detriments of the recent carnage of battle (Valverde Ford Feb 21). On or about February 25th, south of  Socorro near the Stapleton Ranch, New Mexico, Territory Jackson/Carson reaches the rear guard of Sibley’s Brigade deposits his dispatches and joins the 7th Texas Cavalry (7th Mounted Volunteers) 3rd Regiment under the command of Powhattan Jordan. Sibley’s Army of New Mexico takes Albuquerque on March 8th and Santa Fe on March 13th.

On March 21, Jackson/Carson in a battalion of the 7th commanded by Powhatan Jordan along with the Fourth Regiment under the overall command of Colonel Scurry headed north from Albuquerque by way of the Galisteo Road. On March 24 they made it to the village of Real de Delores, that had a gold & silver smelter and ore diggings at the bases of nearby mountains, on the 26th the 7th arrives in Galisteo. A dispatch rider appears from Major Pyron disclosing that he was in a sharp conflict with a superior enemy sixteen miles away in Apache Canyon. At sunset the troops march off directly across the mountains on a bitter cold night in some places the snow was ankle deep. At 3 o’clock in the morning Scurry reached Pryon’s encampment.

March 28th at Pigeon’s ranch the Battle of Glorieta Pass was fought, the field of battle at the end of the day was in possession of the Confederates but the Confederate supply trains were completely destroyed by Chivington, Sibley’s invasion plan is equally & effectively killed. Jackson/Carson is wounded badly in the battle and is brought back to Albuquerque with the rest of the wounded men of the 7th.

On April 6th & 7th Sibley now totally discredited and disparaged by his army is known to his troops as a "walking whiskey barrel", with no supplies to sustain his army is forced to retreat from Santa Fe. At Albuquerque he splits his forces in two each traveling down the East & West sides of the Rio Grande. At the village of Perlata, Canby attacks the East side Confederate column under Green and during the skirmish a few wagons and an ambulance carrying Jackson/Carson is separated from the main column and continues down the East side of the river.

The small train and its occupants reach the north end of the Journada Del Muerta and enter the desert. Somewhere south of Ft. Craig the wagons & ambulance are attacked by a small "spy" company. During a running fight the wagons separate from the ambulance, and though the men in the ambulance kill or wound all of the spy company pursuers all in the ambulance are critically wounded and the panicked team of the ambulance bolts off to the south out of control.

* Sibley was never present at any of the battles his Army of New Mexico participated in. He was always "under the weather" i.e. drunk in his "ambulance".




Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on March 01, 2007, 08:49:21 PM
Part 3

Angel Eyes - West Texas Border Area and "Arizona"

From the clues we get in the film we can surmise that Angel Eyes is a competent hired gun of some high repute who "always gets the job done" and that he has been in operation in West Texas, Mexico, New Mexico and "Arizona". I include Arizona because its the most lawless and plausible area where Angel Eyes, Tuco and Blondie would probably have been operating and the most likely area where they would have seen or met up with him prior to the events depicted in GBU. As I mentioned above it was the most lawless and remote area in the Southwest at the time, El Paso & Mesilla being slightly more civilized.

Early March 1862 -

Baker back in El Paso, hires the notorious Angel Eyes to find Jackson and kill Stevens.

Mid March 1862 -

Angel Eyes (AE) rides out to the Steven’s hacienda, he questions Stevens and discovers through intimidation the fact that Jackson changed his name to Bill Carson and that he joined Sibley’s Brigade. Stevens also inadvertently spills the beans about the missing cash box. Stevens gives AE $1000 dollars to try and buy off his life, and for AE to kill Baker to boot, but AE always finishing his job kills Stevens and one of his sons. AE goes back to Baker and collects his money and kills him. AE is now on a personal hunt for Carson and $200,000.

In El Paso as AE watches the second hanging of Tuco "The Rat" Ramierez, he questions "Half Soldier" (who was in the 3rd Texas Cavalry and lost both legs at the Battle of Wilsons Creek ) about the whereabouts of Bill Carson. Half Soldier also tells AE that Carson re-enlisted, and that he lost an eye, and that AE can find out more information from the whore Maria in the town of Santa Ana ( prehaps actually Dona Ana). Maria talks.

End of March - 1862

AE is at Ft. Marcy converted into a makeshift hospital outside of Santa Fe, New Mexico Territory (the other two Confederate hospitals were in Albuquerque, and Socorro). He finds out that Canby and the Union Forces have cut the Confederates to pieces at the Battles of Apache Canyon & Glorieta. If Carson is taken
alive as a prisoner he will be sent to Batterville Camp (900 miles East).

AE leaves for Batterville along the Santa Fe Trail, traveling at an average of 30 miles a day he reaches the vicinity of Batterville in a month. (what makes the most sense is for Batterville to be near Ft. Leavenworth, Kansas & St. Joseph, Missouri, historically the closest Union POW Camp was in Illinois but this early in the War prisoners were actually most likely pardoned).

Mid May -1862

AE waylays a Union Sergeant newly assigned to the camp assumes his identity, and awaits the possible arrival of Bill Carson while running a black market ring at the camp.


TUCO’s Timeline

Of Tuco Benedicto Juan Pacifico Ramierez, we can surmise quite a bit about since his character in GBU reveals the most back story. Between the litany of crimes read at his hangings to his reunion with his brother Pablo his life can be pretty much mapped out. A good subject for another post.

December -1861

Tuco hides out in one of the boom & bust ghost towns that always dot the landscape in a volatile mining district in the Pinos Alto-Silver City area in the Black Range of New Mexico west of the Mesilla Valley. He’s tracked down and attacked by three bounty hunters, he kills two and wounds one. On his escape route out, three more bounty hunters shoot him off his horse. Tuco is "saved" by Blondie.

(Now lets pause and look at the Blondie character for a moment.

If we go by fragmented clues provided by the film, and say Blondie was about 35 years in age, and then take into account his crack shot prowess with all firearms, his knowledge of military ordinance, and his ability to easily navigate about and survive in the harsh desert wilderness. And then if we can assume that if Blondie was telling the truth when he told the Union officer at the bridge that he was from Illinois we can probably assume that Blondie was involved in the Mexican War in 1846-1848.

The scenario would go something like this, born in Illinois his family decides to emigrate to the West while in Missouri/Kansas border area Blondie at age 16 enlists in the army, most likely a dragoon company. He goes with General Kearney on his march down the Santa Fe trail to New Mexico and points South & West. This would be a most likely back story if you take into account all the similar narratives of the men who roamed that area of the West, and explain how he acquired all his abilities, skills and knowledge. This scenario would put him in the right place and at the right time and since he has run into Angle Eyes before it would have been in the stretch of Southwest between Yuma and Mesilla called "Arizona." I would also go as far as to say that a similar Mexican War scenario could be applied to AE.)

Back to the GBU timeline

Blondie’s con game with Tuco begins. Blondie takes Tuco into Socorro, Texas, and collects the bounty. Before Tuco is hung Blondie shoots the rope and they escape North out of town and into New Mexico Territory to lay low until things cool off for a while.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on March 01, 2007, 08:53:30 PM
Part 4

-here occurs the first major time jump in the film.

Mid March - 1862

El Paso, second Tuco hanging (observed by AE). Blondie and Tuco (B&T) escape again north into New Mexico Territory. Blondie severs relationship takes Tuco’s half of the reward and leaves him 70 miles out in the middle of nowhere. Tuco heads to the town of Dona Ana, New Mexico Territory, arriving in the early evening terribly dehydrated. He rearms at the gunsmiths.

Tuco recovered, goes back to one of his abandoned mine hideouts and recruits some of his old henchmen from the Pinos Altos mining district to track down Blondie

· Second Time Jump

April 7th - 1862

Santa Fe, New Mexico Territory, Sibley’s Brigade is retreating through town at the head are three bearded scouts, members of the "Brigands" or "Santa Fe Gamblers" a notorious independent company composed of trouble makers, ne’re-do-wells, and backcountry mountain men. Tuco spies Blondie’s saddle rig & horse. Blondie kills the three men that Tuco has recruited, but is caught by Tuco.

Blondie, about to be hung in his hotel room by Tuco is saved by a cannon shot from an artillery barrage that blows out the floor under Tuco. (this incident of the Union Army shelling a town actually happened in New Mexico and the women of the town went to the Union commander and told him that his shells were destroying their houses, so they stopped the bombardment, lol). Blondie escapes back to Texas (250 miles + or -) about 6 days travel.

Second week of April - 1862

The Socorro, New Mexico Territory sequence (fits in here).

Tuco tracks Blondie South back down to Texas by following his campfires. Three campfires (50 miles a day more or less).

April 15th - 1862

Blondie & Shorty this time are running the con game again in San Elizario, Texas. Tuco captures Blondie & Shorty hangs. Tuco marches Blondie north back into New Mexico planning a special surprise for his friend.

April 17th - 1862

Tuco gets supplies (food, water, water basin, parasol) in Dona Ana and marches Blondie into the "Journada del Muerta" (March of Death) desert, 100 miles stretching North to South with no water.

B&T meet "The Carriage of the Spirits" (an ambushed Confederate 3rd regiment Headquarters Ambulance wagon full of bodies). Tuco begins to rob the dead but discovers Bill Carson/Jackson barely alive.

A delirious Bill Carson/Jackson tells Tuco about the buried gold in the Sad Hill Cemetery, Tuco asks about the name on the grave, but Bill Carson/Jackson begins to go into convulsions and demands water. Bill Carson/Jackson dies but tells Blondie the name on the
grave.

Tuco now must save Blondie, so he loads him in the ambulance and heads for help.

April 18th -1862

B&T arrive at night at Confederate Picket Post probably near Paraje and find out they are at a place called Apache Canyon. Tuco asks for the closest infirmary and finds out that he is near his brothers San Antonio Mission hospital.

April 19th - 1862

B&T arrive at San Antonio Mission.

· Third Time Jump

May - 1862

B&T leave San Antonio Mission cross the Rio Grande at Paraje Ford and head North into the dry Plains of San Agustine passing around the Union stronghold of Ft. Craig. Tuco has a map and talks about heading Northwest and the Sierra Magdalena on their left and about crossing back across the Rio Grande and then going all the way across Texas (to the East).

B&T are captured by James "Paddy" Graydon’s Independent Spy Company on a patrol following the retreating Sibley, North and West of Ft. Craig.

(this scout of Graydon's really occurred they picked up numerous stragglers found burried supplies and cannon, many culture picked over bodies, so the guy slapping his gloves to brush the dust off his uniform in the film was most likely Graydon ;-) )

· Fourth Time Jump

July - 1862

B&T marched into Batterville Camp, from Ft. Craig, 1,020 miles ( at a pace of about 20 + or - miles a day, over the Santa Fe trail. It would have taken them about 50 days) to this fictitious camp ( again closest real Union POW camp was in Illinois). This site also is located near the longest railroad existing at the time (St. Joseph & Hannibal RR) west of the Mississippi.

Tuco tortured and tells AE that Sad Hill near Ft. Smith Arkansas is the name of the cemetery. Tuco & Wallace to St. Joseph & Hannibal RR. After ten hours on the train Tuco escapes and catches the next train back. Tuco track’s AE & Blondie South towards Ft. Smith, and Sad Hill.

AE & Blondie & AE’s gang traveling about 30 miles per day and Tuco traveling about 40 miles per day both reach Ft. Smith at the same time. ( Ft. Smith, Arkansas changed hands several times during the Civil War and makes a good candidate for the battered town and its on a major river the Arkansas.)

Tuco kills one armed bounty hunter who has been on the lookout for him for eight months.

B&T kill AE’s gang and head for Sad Hill.

2nd week in July 1862

B&T blunder upon a battle for Langston or Langstone bridge over the Arkansas River. The small cemetery nearby at Sad Hill has swollen with the dead from the various skirmishes & battles in the border area of Northwest Arkansas ( Pea Ridge (Elkhorn Tavern) was on March 6-8th 1862, US Casualties 1, 349, CS Casualties 4,600).

B&T&AE shoot out at Sad Hill.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on March 02, 2007, 04:27:03 PM
Thanks, CJ. Immortality is yours. O0


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Tuco the ugly on March 02, 2007, 04:34:25 PM
Cigar joe  you're THE MAN! 8)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on March 02, 2007, 04:44:17 PM
sources:

Sibley's New Mexico Campaign,  Hall, (2002 University of New Mexico Press)
Bloody Valverde, John Taylor, (1995 University of New Mexico Press) great pictures, maps so so
The Battle of Glorieta Pass, Edrington & Taylor (1998 University of New Mexico Press) great pictures, maps a bit better.
Blood & Thunder, Hampton Sides (2006 Doubleday)
The Civil War in the American West, Alvin M. Josephy Jr. (1991 Knoff)
Paddy Graydon Desert Tiger and the Civil War in the Far Southwest (1992 University of Texas at El Paso)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on March 02, 2007, 04:46:29 PM
Thanks guys!


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Juan Miranda on March 13, 2007, 06:08:04 PM
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/Tarkyhitch/woo.gif)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on April 01, 2007, 11:11:54 AM
Been reading the rest of Alvin M. Josephy's "The Civil War in The American West" and after ploffing through the Souix uprising in Minnesota, I'm back on the "of Ships & Mud" chapter detailing the battle along the Texas coast & the Mississippi River.

Found out that after Sibley's Brigade stumbled back to San Antonio in dribs & drabs they reconstituted and fought at the Battle of Galvezton on land & as "horse marines" on the two Confederate rams Neptune, & Bayou City, while on their way to Louisiana.

In Louisiana they brought their captured Valverde Battery along &  fought under the overall command of Taylor at the Battle of Ft. Bisland. Taylor had exhausted his patience with Sibley (as a result of his drinking) and removed him from command and Tom Green took over.



Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on April 02, 2007, 11:05:32 AM

Found out that after Sibley's Brigade stumbled back to San Antonio in dribs & drabs ....
My 75% off copy of Foote came Saturday and I read the material on the New Mexico Campaign. Foote is quite good on the final march back home:

Quote
Canby did not pursue. He knew the country Sibley was taking his men through, out there beyond the narrow valley benches. It was all desert, and he was having no part of it. He marched his troopers leisurely on to the safety and comfort of Ft. Craig, arriving April 22. By that time Sibley’s Texans were at the midpoint of their detour. Canby was content to leave their disposal to the desert.

It was one of the great marches of all time, and one of the great nightmares ever after for the men who survived it. They had no guide, no road, not even a trail through that barren waste, and they began the ten-day trek with five days’ poor rations, including water. What few guns they had brought along were dragged and lowered up- and downhill by the men, who fashioned long rope harnesses for the purpose. For miles the brush and undergrowth were so dense that they had to cut and hack their way through with bowie knives and axes. Skirting the western slopes of the Madelenas, they crossed the Sierra de San Mateo, then staggered down the dry bed of the Palomas River until they reached the Rio Grande again[……]. From start to finish, since heading north at the opening of the year, they had suffered a total of 1700 casualties. Something under 500 of these fell or were captured in battle, and of the remaining 1200 who did not get back to Texas, a good part crumpled along the wayside during this last 100 miles. They reached the river with nothing but their guns and what they carried on their persons. A northern lieutenant, following their trail a year later, reported that he “not infrequently found a piece of a gun-carriage, or part of a harness, or some piece of camp or garrison equipage, with occasionally a white, dry skeleton of a man. At some points it seemed impossible for men to have made their way.”

Sibley reached Fort Bliss in early May, with what was left of this command strung out for fifty miles behind him. Here he made his report to the Richmond government, a disillusioned man. (Foote 304)

So, Sibley and the boys had to suffer much in the same way that Tuco made Blondie suffer. Fitting.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on April 02, 2007, 02:58:12 PM
Quote
So, Sibley and the boys had to suffer much in the same way that Tuco made Blondie suffer. Fitting.

Yes, and after El Paso & Ft. Bliss they had still to march all the way back to San Antonio and because of the size of the Brigade were again as when they started originally from San Antonio forced to break up into small companies and march the route in stages so that they wouldn't drink the springs dry.

There is a lot of detail on the whole march in "Sibley's New Mexico Campaign" by Hall.  O0


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on April 03, 2007, 09:35:21 AM
Clarification, please:
Quote
April 18th -1862

B&T arrive at night at Confederate Picket Post probably near Paraje and find out they are at a place called Apache Canyon. Tuco asks for the closest infirmary and finds out that he is near his brothers San Antonio Mission hospital.
Why would pickets still be at Apache Canyon at this late date? Wouldn't they all be marching back with Sibley to El Paso at this point?


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on April 03, 2007, 02:22:02 PM
Quote
Why would pickets still be at Apache Canyon at this late date? Wouldn't they all be marching back with Sibley to El Paso at this point?

Its not the Apache Canyon of the Santa Fe Trail.

After reading numerous histories of New Mexico & the Southwest you find out that practically every mountian range had its own Apache band, Mimbreno, Jicarilla, etc., etc. so for the time line I'm  speculating that there are many Apache Canyon's as there are Apache tribal bands throughout New Mexico.

The other fact is that Steele with a part of the 7th Cavalry stayed put in the Mesilla Valley all through the campaing from about Paraje on the Rio Grande South to the border.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on April 03, 2007, 04:25:37 PM
Man, this gets confusing. Next you'll be telling me there's two Socorros! ;)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on April 04, 2007, 06:48:02 AM
A few other bands that I remember off the top of my head the Mescaleros, Chiricahuas, Coyotera, Mescalero, San Carlos, Tonto, and White Mountain Apaches.

In Montana for instance there are at least two Kootenai Creeks one in the Mission Mountains and one in the Bitteroots,  and Crow Creeks also.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on April 04, 2007, 08:37:57 AM
Its not the Apache Canyon of the Santa Fe Trail.


Is there any reason why the Apache Canyon in GBU can't be the one on the Santa Fe Trail? It would change the time line a bit, but is there a problem with that?


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on April 04, 2007, 12:06:23 PM
The problem is geography and chronology, its a couple of hundred miles north of Journada Del Muerta, the Confederates have already evacuated Santa Fe & Albuquerqe and a Confederate picket post that far north would not make much sence at that time period.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on April 05, 2007, 05:07:25 PM
Gotcha.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on April 05, 2007, 08:39:58 PM
 O0


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on April 06, 2007, 07:23:23 AM
Hey, Joe, I was discussing Sibley with my dad and he pointed out that Sibley was the inventor of the conical tent (inspired, of course, by Indian teepees), which became a big deal with the British Army, especially in Egypt. He also invented something called the Sibley Stove. I guess the guy was really a quartermaster at heart, and should have had staff jobs rather than commands. The sad thing is he never received any royalties for his inventions. I found out a little bit of info regarding this here: http://egypt.atomicmartinis.com/hhsibley.htm


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on April 06, 2007, 03:49:08 PM
Yes that's right its all mentioned in the book Sibley's New Mexico campaign. More info, after the Civil War Sibley and a few other ex-Confederate Offices were employed by Egyptian Army for a while.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on April 15, 2007, 08:45:01 AM
A bit more to add for those interested, Green the Confederate hero of Valverde, and Scurry the hero of Glorietta were later both killed during Union General Bank's campaigns towards Shreveport  on the Red River in Louisiana.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on April 16, 2007, 08:42:29 AM
Thanks, Joe. That may explain why Tom Green isn't better known.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Jill on May 18, 2007, 07:24:57 AM
But... who killed Carson/Jackson and the others? Yankee attack? Bandits? Angel Eyes?


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on May 19, 2007, 05:46:15 AM
You nust have missed it Jill  ;)

Quote
On April 6th & 7th Sibley now totally discredited and disparaged by his army is known to his troops as a "walking whiskey barrel", with no supplies to sustain his army is forced to retreat from Santa Fe. At Albuquerque he splits his forces in two each traveling down the East & West sides of the Rio Grande. At the village of Perlata, Canby attacks the East side Confederate column under Green and during the skirmish a few wagons and an ambulance carrying Jackson/Carson is separated from the main column and continues down the East side of the river.

The small train and its occupants reach the north end of the Journada Del Muerta and enter the desert. Somewhere south of Ft. Craig the wagons & ambulance are attacked by a small "spy" company. During a running fight the wagons separate from the ambulance, and though the men in the ambulance kill or wound all of the spy company pursuers all in the ambulance are critically wounded and the panicked team of the ambulance bolts off to the south out of control.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on July 05, 2007, 10:05:42 PM
A bit more info to add

The California Column commanded by Carleton marched through Arizona Territory to help Canby in New Mexico, they retook Tuscon, built Ft. Bowie, and arrived in New Mexico, the last detachments reaching there by mid August 1862. Carleton was given the task of reoccupying West Texas and he re-raised the Union flag over Ft. Bliss & Ft. Davis.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: tucumcari bound on July 17, 2007, 10:03:58 AM
You seem to have a handle on this cigar. Good stuff my friend.  :)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Bill Carson on August 03, 2007, 05:11:39 AM
In the other thread I asked a question about How did Angel Eyes become an Union sargeant...

You, Cigar joe, refer me to this thread and I read it (I must say that it took me quite some thime to read it  :)). Thank you very much. O0

Here I find some ideas and qlues about my question and I`m very pleased about that, but I still don`t "have" the answer about one part of my question, so I will ask it again here. I hope that you will manage to help me, once again.

Lets say that we can assume how Angel Eyes become an Union sargeant, but do you know why there is no explanation about it in the film? Is this because of some missing scenes, or studio`s “touch“, or Leone just intentionly does that without explaination...?

By the way, great thread Cigar!  :)   Maps are great too! O0


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on August 03, 2007, 05:27:20 AM
I don't think anything was ever filmed on that, much like DYS and Mallory"s journey to Mexico from Ireland or the how he became a dynamite expert, its left to our imagination.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: marmota-b on August 03, 2007, 05:34:53 AM
After all, if everything was shown, it wouldn't be such an adventure to watch it. You know, it wouldn't be such a surprise to see him there when Tuco and Blondie suddenly see him.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Bill Carson on August 03, 2007, 05:45:01 AM
I don't think anything was ever filmed on that, much like DYS and Mallory"s journey to Mexico from Ireland or the how he became a dynamite expert, its left to our imagination.

Thank you. :)

After all, if everything was shown, it wouldn't be such an adventure to watch it. You know, it wouldn't be such a surprise to see him there when Tuco and Blondie suddenly see him.

 O0


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: tucumcari bound on September 20, 2007, 10:59:38 AM
I was just reading through this again. This thread is kickass cigar!


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on September 20, 2007, 02:06:33 PM
Indeed. You have said the thing that is true, TB. O0


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: tucumcari bound on September 20, 2007, 02:09:35 PM
Indeed. You have said the thing that is true, TB. O0

haha, thanks jekins! :)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on September 20, 2007, 09:43:09 PM
Just finnished "The Civil War in The American West" by Alvin E. Josephy Jr. great book that goes into each of the various campaigns & events West of the Mississippi.

William Steele the commander of the split 7th regiment called the 3rd (the one that Carson/Jackson was attached to) that invaded New Mexico fought in some of the last battles of the Civil War in the Indian Territory as a Brig General.  Brig. General Stand Watie a full blooded Cherokee continued to fight in the Arkansas River Valley and was the last Confederate General to surrender about ten weeks after Lee.

Brig General Jo Shelby, never surrendered, he crossed the Rio Grande with several hundred followers and spent two years of self imposed exile. 

Note the film Rio Conchos, The Hellbenders, and a few others use Shelby as their basis.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on September 20, 2007, 10:44:14 PM
Thanks, CJ. Good info (as usual). O0


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: marmota-b on September 21, 2007, 12:50:27 PM
Note the film Rio Conchos, The Hellbenders, and a few others use Shelby as their basis.

Good to know. O0


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Cusser on October 07, 2007, 05:27:33 PM
Anyone want to guess how long Blondie and Tuco were at the prison camp before the Tuco interrogation?  Same day, one day?  Seems like it was just after the first roll call when the Union was trying to match a name to Bill Carson, so it seems they weren't there very long (but may have taken a while to march to that prison).


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on October 07, 2007, 07:45:19 PM
I would say same day, it took them a while to march there though.  O0


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on October 20, 2007, 07:13:30 PM
A new little tidbit of Civil War info gathered while reading "Grant Takes Command". Prisoners of war were either exchanged or paroled up until 1864, the reason the Prisoner Of War camps arose was because that once the North started using black troops, the South refused to recognize escaped slaves in Federal Uniform as soldiers and would not agree to exchange them man for man. Rather they considered the back soldiers runaway slaves and property insisting on retuning them to sevitude, and the white commanders as outlaws under the slave laws defigned to keep people from formenting slave insurrections.

Also another reason was the sad fact that the North (Secretary Stanton) also believed that it could end the war quicker depriving the South of manpower that the exchanges would replenish.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on October 20, 2007, 07:41:13 PM
I see from a quick web search that even Andersonville wasn't opened until early 1864. So, CJ, Betterville existing in 1862 is anachronistic, no?


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on October 20, 2007, 07:57:18 PM
yes, very.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on October 20, 2007, 08:34:08 PM
yes, very.
Let's not tell the AR continuity types, eh? When AE mentions Andersonville to the Betterville commandant, it's proof that he's actually capable of traveling back in time!!!


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Ben Tyreen on October 20, 2007, 08:47:48 PM
Quote
Let's not tell the AR continuity types, eh? When AE mentions Andersonville to the Betterville commandant, it's proof that he's actually capable of traveling back in time!!!

  Angel Eyes could be the Terminator!  Just think of the way he inhabits that Union sergeant's body and uniform.  ;)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on October 20, 2007, 09:34:54 PM
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Jill on October 21, 2007, 03:27:29 AM
  Angel Eyes could be the Terminator!  Just think of the way he inhabits that Union sergeant's body and uniform.  ;)

And he hides his sunglasses!  ;D

"Stop... STOP killing Judas!"


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on October 22, 2007, 10:18:58 PM
CJ, check out this website, it has links to info about all (or almost all) the Civil War Prisons: http://www.censusdiggins.com/civil_war_prisons.html What I find most interesting are the Illinois Prisons: Alton Prison, Camp Douglas, Rock Island. Both Alton and Douglas (which was actually in Chicago itself) started receiving Confederate prisoners as early as February 1862. Yeah, those guys might get exchanged, but many of them could end up dying before that happened (Douglas is known, in some quarters apparently, as the "Andersonville of the North"). Maybe Douglas is the model for Betterville, but relocated somewhere near the Mississippi River?


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on October 23, 2007, 06:42:18 AM
I always considered Betterville Camp as more of a temporary collection point where prisoners would then be sent to more permamnet places like the Illinois Prisons.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Groggy on October 23, 2007, 10:16:49 AM
  Angel Eyes could be the Terminator!  Just think of the way he inhabits that Union sergeant's body and uniform.  ;)

But... he died at the end, didn't he? :-\


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Ben Tyreen on October 23, 2007, 11:17:25 AM
Quote
But... he died at the end, didn't he?

  Ok, he could be the T-1000, the Robert Patrick terminator.   :)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on October 23, 2007, 03:06:21 PM
It makes sense that Sky Net would keep trying to get John Conner's progenitors, not by sending Terminators back to points in time after the first failure in 1984, but back to periods before 1984. No doubt Blondie is John Conner's great great great grandfather. The AE-1000 model failed, but that doesn't mean Sky Net won't try yet again (maybe with the El Indio 3000!)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Tuco the ugly on October 24, 2007, 09:32:30 PM
This would imply that GBU takes place before FAFDM, since the model Sentenza 1200 was captured by an unnamed JC's ancestor, re-named to Col. Mortimer 2000 and re-programed to protect JC's progenitor.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on October 25, 2007, 12:58:07 AM
Exactly! O0


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: El Incompetente on December 17, 2007, 03:47:53 PM
Nice work C Joe!
I really like those old maps (in fact, i like maps in general), it´s great to get such an overview.
I was wondering though - maybe it has been mentioned already, haven´t read all posts -
could the desert Tuco and Blondie cross be the one in the tularosa basin between the Sacramento and the San Andres mountains,
the area which today is the white sands missile range?
Are there really any sand dunes west of san Andres?


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on December 17, 2007, 04:01:21 PM
I was wondering though - maybe it has been mentioned already, haven´t read all posts -
could the desert Tuco and Blondie cross be the one in the tularosa basin between the Sacramento and the San Andres mountains,
the area which today is the white sands missile range?
Are there really any sand dunes west of san Andres?

I thought of that too, White Sands would be the obvious location, but it wouldn't fit in with Sibley's Brigade. If you read  some of the books I listed (Sibley's New Mexico Campaign, Hall) it describes the trouble Sibleys artillery had getting the cannon through the loose sand between the volcanic rock ridges in the northern end  the Jornada Del Muerta.

I know that sand dunes can move so wether or not there may have been dunes or not I don't know. Aren't there dunes up in Colorado north of Santa Fe?


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on December 18, 2007, 01:49:40 PM
There are two more time jumps that I forgot to include to be thorough:

B&T blunder upon a battle for Langston or Langstone bridge over the Arkansas River. The small cemetery nearby at Sad Hill has swollen with the dead from the various skirmishes & battles in the border area of Northwest Arkansas ( Pea Ridge (Elkhorn Tavern) was on March 6-8th 1862, US Casualties 1, 349, CS Casualties 4,600).

After the blowing of the bridge Tuco and Blondie hunker down in a shell hole while the artillery duel begins across the river between the North & South. The duel continues into the darkness ending sometime during the night . Our time jump is to the next morning when Blondie & Tuco awaken from the shell hole. Tuco takes a leak and then he & Blondie wade across the river. The come out upon the other side soaked

Here occurs the last time jump (probably a few hours) for we now see Blondie & Tuco now with their clothes dry with the river in the far distance as they approach the burnt out chapel.

B&T&AE shoot out at Sad Hill.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on December 18, 2007, 02:17:25 PM
Here occurs the last time jump (probably a few hours) for we now see Blondie & Tuco now with their clothes dry with the river in the far distance as they approach the burnt out chapel.
Thanks, CJ. I always read that transition wrong, thinking B&T have just come up from the river to find the burnt out chapel. Greater attention to detail would no doubt make me a better viewer, but I can't help feeling SL erred here by not providing an establishing shot or some other obvious form of transition. Most first-time viewers probably also miss those subtle indicators.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: El Incompetente on December 18, 2007, 03:11:19 PM
Aren't there dunes up in Colorado north of Santa Fe?

There are some around the San Luis valley in southern Colorado. Heck, they´re everywhere.

Regarding the desert in GBU; when T and AE enjoy a meal together the latter says something about
the desert being more than 100 miles from south to north, which is a fitting description of the
tularosa basin.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on December 18, 2007, 04:22:13 PM
Quote
Thanks, CJ. I always read that transition wrong, thinking B&T have just come up from the river to find the burnt out chapel. Greater attention to detail would no doubt make me a better viewer, but I can't help feeling SL erred here by not providing an establishing shot or some other obvious form of transition. Most first-time viewers probably also miss those subtle indicators. 


You are probably right it could have been better, though you can see the river a good distance away right before they get to the chapel.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on December 18, 2007, 04:26:54 PM
Quote
Regarding the desert in GBU; when T and AE enjoy a meal together the latter says something about
the desert being more than 100 miles from south to north, which is a fitting description of the
tularosa basin.

I could kick myself that the only time I passed through New Mexico I stayed along the eastern side of the state, Raton Pass to Las Vegas, Pecos River Valley, passed near Tucumcari, south to Roswell, then down to Carlsbad Caverns.  :(


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: moviesceleton on January 30, 2008, 05:55:18 AM
Just noticed CJ has posted this time line on IMDb in GBU FAQ section. There are also other FAQs he's answered O0


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: sargatanas on May 14, 2008, 04:23:41 AM
Just noticed CJ has posted this time line on IMDb in GBU FAQ section. There are also other FAQs he's answered O0
wow, what an effort


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on May 14, 2008, 04:25:43 AM
It didn't take that much guys just highlight & paste  ;)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on May 14, 2008, 04:48:13 AM
This is extremely important work. It is thanks to the timeline that I have come to agree with Joe that much of the film (from Betterville on) takes place far from New Mexico and Texas. I pity the fools who try to fit everything with the Sibley campaign: it's just not tenable. The bridge scene has to occur someplace back east.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on May 14, 2008, 05:12:05 AM
When Sibley is retreating all the major battles in NM were over and just the small rear guard action at Perlata was left.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: marmota-b on May 14, 2008, 06:24:47 AM
wow, what an effort
It didn't take that much guys just highlight & paste  ;)

Hey, but how much did it take to learn all pieces of information needed, and put it together, and write it down here, huh? I second it: What an effort!

I need to find time to finally really, seriously, carefully read through this... so far I've been only skipping through...


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on May 14, 2008, 10:17:54 PM
It took actual timewise about a week to put it all together after I read :

Sibley's New Mexico Campain
The Civil War in the American West
Bloody Valverde
The Battle of Glorietta Pass
Desert Tiger Captain Paddy Graydon
Blood & Thunder


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: marmota-b on May 15, 2008, 06:50:03 AM
after I read :

Sibley's New Mexico Campain
The Civil War in the American West
Bloody Valverde
The Battle of Glorietta Pass
Desert Tiger Captain Paddy Graydon
Blood & Thunder

So how much did THAT take? ;D


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on May 15, 2008, 08:31:46 AM
Quote
So how much did THAT take?


Two very enjoyable months more or less.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Lac qui Parle on May 15, 2008, 08:34:30 AM
...the major movements of the characters superimposed upon an 1859 map on the West.

When inquisition is paired with passion ... 'tis an amazing thing.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: El Incompetente on December 16, 2008, 02:10:29 PM
Those maps are great.

I´m curious about three of the locations on the second map on page 2 and i hope someone can
can tell me a little bit about them.
Two of them lies east of the San Andres mountains and the third one east of
the Organ mountains:

The place marked "Tres Hermanos" sounds like it could be some rock formation, a landmark.

The second one is right below, "Ojo St Nicholas", and has a marked spot which
maybe indicates a settlement of some kind.

And the third one is a bit further down, an unmarked spot with four road connections.
I´m guessing it could be the San Augustin ranch,
a place that apparently exists even to this day.

And CJ, were the roads marked "Butterfield Overland Stage Road" actual stage roads?







Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on December 16, 2008, 05:10:55 PM
Here is a closeup of the original Map

(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/4716/treshermanostw5.gif) (http://imageshack.us)

Looks like the spots marked with a small circle are settlements, Tres Hermanos, and above it St. Andros Spring and Salt Branch are landmarks as is Point of Rocks to the West. The spot with the circle below Ojo St Nicholas (above the "o" in Filmore) probably a settlement or a ranch but has no name, if you are familair with the area prehaps its what you say the San Augustin Ranch.

Don't know about the St. Augustine Ranch.

As far as the stage road it is marked "Overland Mail Route" right below the Rio Pecos see a farther East section of map and has the same road symbol (two parallel lines) below:

(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/9464/overlandmailroutejc6.gif) (http://imageshack.us)

And you can see the route marked on this National Geographic Civil War map below:

(http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/723/ngcivilwarmapoc7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: El Incompetente on December 17, 2008, 02:43:23 PM
Thanks once again CJ!

I spotted a dot on the NG Civil War map - east of Organ Mountains - 
marked San Augustin Springs, so it is most likely the San Augustin Ranch/Springs on the 1859 map.

Does that map say what other kinds of roads there are, for example the one marked with short lines
and the one that looks like a Morse code signal, with a line and two dots?


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on December 17, 2008, 04:31:30 PM

This is the title of the map:

Map of the territory of the United States from the Mississippi River to the Pacific Ocean; ordered by Jeff' Davis, Secretary of War to accompany the reports of the explorations for a railroad route. Compiled from authorized explorations and other reliable data by G. K. Warren ... under the direction of W. H. Emory in 1854 and of A. A. Humphreys 1854-5-6-7-8. Drawn by E. Freyhold. Engr. on stone by J. Bien.

This is its description  below there is no legend on the map some of the lines have names and dates which I would assume are the survey routes the others would probably be the wagon roads & trails :

Very detailed map of the United States west of the Mississippi River indicating drainage, relief by hachures, cities and towns, forts, trails, wagon roads, and routes of exploration. An important map of western expansion, it utilized and lists 45 major exploration and mapping reports from the Lewis & Clark to the U.S. General Land Office Surveys.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: El Incompetente on December 18, 2008, 04:12:46 PM
Ok, thanks.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: manuel on April 17, 2009, 08:27:08 PM
I wonder what a timeline of the entire Dollars films would like?


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on April 18, 2009, 05:56:58 AM
There are separate subjects for them manuel, check out the threads, but from the clues in the films they both take place near the turn of the century, so Blondie couldn't possibly actually be the same guy as Joe or Manco (Blondie would be about 60 years old).


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Groggy on June 12, 2009, 04:58:19 PM
Reading over this timeline again (I referred it to DVD Savant and he seems to appreciate it), the one thing which seems improbable to me is Blondie and Tuco's march to Betterville. I'm not sure how likely it is that they would have been marched over 1,000 miles on foot through territory either occupied by Indians or swarming with partisans to get to a prison camp. Is this what happened to the real Sibley POWs or is this just conjecture? I know that there was at least one Union POW camp farther west than Illinois, on Alcatraz Island.

Forgive me if this has been addressed before, but I didn't see anything dealing with this issue.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on June 12, 2009, 07:45:13 PM
Once they go to Betterville and leave New Mexico its all made up.  In reality all the prisoners were pardoned with the stipulation that they would not take up arms again, POW camps didn't start until I think 1864.

They probably would have marched North to Colorado then East to Kansas. The emigrant wagon trains walk/rode West, the Cherokee Trail of Tears  removal walked it Georgia to Oklahoma wouldn't far fetched "In one of the saddest episodes of our brief history, men, women, and children were taken from their land, herded into makeshift forts with minimal facilities and food, then forced to march a thousand miles(Some made part of the trip by boat in equally horrible conditions). Under the generally indifferent army commanders, human losses for the first groups of Cherokee removed were extremely high."


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Groggy on June 12, 2009, 07:50:26 PM
True, paroling of captured enemies was quite common (as were prisoner exchanges until spring of 1864), but there were several POW camps in operation in 1862. According to Wikipedia, Alcatraz was holding Confederate prisoners from the first year of the war onward (don't know who they would have been holding that early in the war - maybe some of Baylor's men?), the Confederates were operating Castle Thunder in Virginia around the time of Antietam if not earlier. Fort Delaware was a Union POW camp established in spring of 1862. However, as you correctly state, none of these except Alcatraz was at all west.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on June 12, 2009, 07:55:36 PM
Maybe Alcatraz had Confederate Navy prisoners who knows, it would be interesting to find out.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Groggy on June 12, 2009, 07:59:31 PM
Looking into it a bit, there was some trouble with Confederate sympathizers in Southern California during the early years of the war. I think those guys might have accounted for most of them.

According to Wikipedia (sorry I don't have a more scholary source on-hand):

Quote
At the time of the war's outbreak, Federal troops were under the command of Colonel (Brevet Brigadier General) Albert Sidney Johnston, headquartered at the Department of the Pacific in Benicia. General Johnston strongly believed that the South represented the cause of freedom, and traditional American democracy of popular sovereignty.

The majority of Southern sympathizers in the state made plans to secede with Oregon to form a "Pacific Republic." Their plans rested on the cooperation of General Johnston. Johnston understood this, and met with the men, but he declined. He said he had sworn an oath to defend the Union, and although he believed that Lincoln had violated and destroyed the Constitution holding the Union together, he would not go against his word. Thus the plans for California to secede from the United States never came to fruition. Johnston soon resigned his commission and joined the fight in the east as a general with the Confederacy. The Los Angeles Mounted Rifles escorted him across the desert, crossing the Colorado River on July 4, 1861. Like other units leaving California for the Confederacy, the volunteers joined up principally with Texas regiments. General Johnston was later killed at the Battle of Shiloh.

The only Confederate Flag captured in California during the Civil War took place on July 4, 1861 in Sacramento. During Independence Day celebrations, secessionist Major J. P. Gillis celebrated the independence of the United States from Britain as well as the southern states from the Union. He unfurled a Confederate flag of his own design and proceeded to march down the street to both the applause and jeers of onlookers. Jack Biderman and Curtis Clark, enraged by Gillis' actions, accosted him and "captured" the flag.[3] The flag itself is based on the first Confederate flag, the Stars and Bars. However, the canton contains seventeen stars rather than the Confederate's seven. Because the flag was captured by Jack Biderman, it is often also referred to as the "Biderman Flag".

...

Eighty-eight violent incidents of various sizes were fought in California, many of them against outlaws trying to capture gold for their own benefit. (No captured gold was sent to the Confederacy.) Most of the fights were guerrilla battles, or in the terminology of the day, battles with "partisan rangers." Indeed, a few men left the guerrillas under the command of the ruthless school teacher, William Quantrill, in Missouri, and came to California to train supporters there. One partisan warrior, Dan Showalter, once robbed a stagecoach of all its gold, leaving a receipt behind with the driver to keep him out of trouble with his bosses. The westernmost attack related to the Civil War occurred just outside downtown San Jose. A bronze historical plaque marking the site identifies it as a battle with "outlaws," rather than a battle of the American Civil War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_in_the_Civil_War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_in_the_Civil_War)


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Monco10 on May 09, 2010, 12:50:29 PM
Good work


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: johnk on August 12, 2011, 01:15:17 PM
Message to Cigar joe...........Were you Arch Stantons room mate at West Point ?


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on August 12, 2011, 07:13:54 PM
 O0


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: johnk on August 16, 2011, 02:00:15 PM
Would love to know............Are you a seasoned Bounty Hunter or do you work in shoe shop like Bronco Billy ?


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Big Boss 1971 on December 26, 2011, 11:15:54 AM
How can they have dynamite when it wasn't invented before 1865 (by Nobel.....of all people  ???


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on December 26, 2011, 05:06:24 PM
How can they have dynamite when it wasn't invented before 1865 (by Nobel.....of all people  ???

It wasn't dynamite, they were black powder sticks, the boxes are marked explosives not TNT not dynamite.

Yes, dynamite invented in 1867 by Alfred Nobel, who figured out how to make nitroglycerin easier to transport. But, that said, commercial powder sticks or powder catrridges (black powder) were used by some mines and industries; others actually rolled their own. Here are some discriptive references.

Phase one: 1860-1871 "Three men (two strikers and a drill holder) would be employed to prepare the blasting hole "using an ordinary inch and one quarter drill." It would take a full shift for the three men to drill a sufficient number of holes which usually extended from 6 - 10 feet into the rock. Since the holes were rarely uniform, the blasting cartridges had to be made by hand. According to George Stuart,(19)9 a 19th - century mining entrepreneur, the cartridge shells were covered with thick brown paper and common soap was used to make them impervious to water. The shells were not only made to fill the holes as drilled but were adapted as well to the condition of the rock.(20) "

George Stuart was associated with gold mining in Nova Scotia from the early '60s until his death. He assisted his father in the construction of the first stamp mill at Waverley in the early 1860s. (From: G. Stuart, "History and Outlook of Gold Mining in Nova Scotia" (unpublished paper, 1933), p. 1: "I helped my father to erect in Waverley the first gold stamp mill in Canada." See also, H. J. Morgan, The Canadian Men and Women of Their Time: A Handbook of Canadian Biography of Living Characters (1912) p. 1074). Stuart was born in 1842.) and "Pellet powders, made from sodium nitrate, are finding extensive use. These consist of cylindrical "pellets," 2 inches long, wrapped in paraffined paper cartridges, 11/4, 1 3/8, 1 1/2, 1 3/4, and 2 inches in diameter, which resemble cartridges of dynamite. The cartridges contain 2, 3, or 4 pellets which are perforated in the direction of their axis with a 3/@-inch hole for the insertion of a squib or fuse for firing. " The description indicates that powder sticks of various diameters were available in 4", 6", and 8" lengths.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: iceman on June 03, 2012, 08:44:48 AM
It wasn't dynamite, they were black powder sticks, the boxes are marked explosives not TNT not dynamite.

so if you drilled a hole in a rock face say 10ft deep and stuck a black powder stick in it...would it blow the lot up or would you need 10 sticks in the hole?

ICE


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on June 03, 2012, 01:22:11 PM
so if you drilled a hole in a rock face say 10ft deep and stuck a black powder stick in it...would it blow the lot up or would you need 10 sticks in the hole?

ICE

Ten sticks...

But it would depend on what you were trying to achieve,  drilling a shaft or a tunnel you'd have perimeter holes defining the outside boundaries and one (or two) center holes. You'd want the center charges to go off first an blow a cavity out so that the outside blasts would blow the surrounding rock into the just evacuated center kind of directing the energy towards the center rather than fracturing the rock of tunnel walls .

Think about it how else are you going to effectively fill a horizontal hole and keep the powder from getting wet, the wax paper rolled charges make packing the hole easier and keeps the powder dry


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: iceman on June 04, 2012, 04:08:54 PM
Ten sticks...



What sort of energy would a stick of explosive produce.... can you compare it to something we can relate to...?
ICE


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on June 04, 2012, 06:20:11 PM
What sort of energy would a stick of explosive produce.... can you compare it to something we can relate to...?
ICE

Not sure, I do believe the energy released id measured in joules though.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on May 31, 2014, 04:03:02 PM
All the hangings are in Texas based on the reading of the sentences each one mentions "the laws of this state" New Mexico was a territory so that points to West Texas. I'll post the maps soon and it will become clearer. 
Sorry, CJ, after going through the hanging scenes carefully yesterday and today, I've found that the signage indicates they were all done in New Mexico. The first is in Mesilla, NM (there's a bank sign clearly visible behind Clint as he hitches up), and the second is in Valverde (Angel Eyes walks past the sign for the post office). I guess Mickey Knox blew it on "the laws of this state" thing.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: Smokey on May 31, 2014, 04:19:20 PM
What sort of energy would a stick of explosive produce.... can you compare it to something we can relate to...?
ICE

I believe an 1/8 to 1/4 stick was used to blow tree stumps.


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: cigar joe on June 01, 2014, 05:12:39 AM
Sorry, CJ, after going through the hanging scenes carefully yesterday and today, I've found that the signage indicates they were all done in New Mexico. The first is in Mesilla, NM (there's a bank sign clearly visible behind Clint as he hitches up), and the second is in Valverde (Angel Eyes walks past the sign for the post office). I guess Mickey Knox blew it on "the laws of this state" thing.

well, there is a Val Verde County in Texas and a Mesilla Valley in far West Texas ;-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesilla_Valley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesilla_Valley)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_Verde_County,_Texas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_Verde_County,_Texas)



Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 01, 2014, 11:23:46 AM
The name of a county isn't written on a sign in the town square. The name of the town is


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on June 01, 2014, 12:26:44 PM
Yeah, but CJ gets props for trying. O0 You won't get him to relinquish his hangings-in-Texas theory until you can pry it from his cold, dead hands!


Title: Re: I got the time line down...
Post by: dave jenkins on November 09, 2014, 03:13:32 PM
One thing that tends to support CJ's idea that Sad Hill was near Ft. Smith AK: in the restored footage, after Tuco and Blondie leave the mission (and before they encounter the dusty blue bellies), Tuco is looking at a map and giving hints about where they are to go. He mumbles something about going via the Rio Grande and complaining it's the long way around, also something about crossing Texas; then he flips his map over and says something about taking a more northerly route. That suggests, at least to me, going through Oklahoma, which would, of course, put them on track to hit Ft. Smith (which is right across the river from OK). They get captured and as a result don't go that way, but the plan nonetheless gives us an idea where Tuco thought they were headed.