Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => Once Upon A Time In America => Topic started by: aaronson on July 02, 2003, 03:16:31 AM



Title: What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: aaronson on July 02, 2003, 03:16:31 AM
What is your opinion ?

On the beach when noodles said "you are mad" Berkovicz was furious and answered" never more say that ".

After Noodles has called the police but also before the tragedy Wood's character's  met Noodles who said again " you are mad " and  Wood knocked him out.

Two explainations:

Wood  is really furious and loses the control, it is an unplanned accident and Mafia killers must search Noodles after this mistake

Or  Wood loves Noodles and knock out him before the tragedy in order to save the life of his best friend.

Tell me what you have understood  


Title: Re:What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: Jon on July 02, 2003, 03:59:46 AM
I think Max knocked out Noodles to save his life,so that Noodles would not be there when the police surprised the others and they all died,well,except for Max.don't forget,despite evidence of psychotic behaviour Max was always the far more intelligent of the two,I think much of what he does in the film is to set up his future.

Max takes over Noodles' life,in a way,but can never bring himself to actually kill him.It is possible that the gangsters who are trying to kill Noodles at the start of the film were sent by Max,but I doubt it,I think they were sent by Joe Pesci's character.


Title: Re:What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: aaronson on July 04, 2003, 01:54:05 AM
I think Max knocked out Noodles to save his life,so that Noodles would not be there when the police surprised the others and they all died,well,except for Max.don't forget,despite evidence of psychotic behaviour Max was always the far more intelligent of the two,I think much of what he does in the film is to set up his future.

Max takes over Noodles' life,in a way,but can never bring himself to actually kill him.It is possible that the gangsters who are trying to kill Noodles at the start of the film were sent by Max,but I doubt it,I think they were sent by Joe Pesci's character.

Great.
Max tried to save Noodles life. I 'm sure he quickly knew where Noodles was living but never said a word to Mafia.... and he also called his son David as Aaronson. I dont know if there are godfather in Jewish religion as Catholic one but Max shoud have choosen Noodles in other time.


Title: Re:What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: Half-Soldier on July 05, 2003, 09:45:16 AM
Great.
Max tried to save Noodles life. I 'm sure he quickly knew where Noodles was living but never said a word to Mafia.... and he also called his son David as Aaronson. I dont know if there are godfather in Jewish religion as Catholic one but Max shoud have choosen Noodles in other time.

I like this idea Max knocked out Noodles to save his life because he loves him, but it is also this love that drives his anger. When Noodles says "you're crazy" Max flies off the handle, there is no doubt about that. He has always wanted Noodles respect, and he doesn't get it.


Title: Re:What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: aaronson on July 05, 2003, 02:28:24 PM
. He has always wanted Noodles respect, and he doesn't get it.

Sure,and the choice between ambition and frendship made him crazy .


Title: Re:What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: alexander on July 08, 2003, 12:59:02 AM
i think it goes deeper than that. it is clear that max always evied noodles, and i don't think it is fair to say that he loved him. noodles loves max, but max is incapable of that feeling. he knocks noodles out because he wants him to suffer and he does, for thirty years. after all, that was his plan. that is why the suitcase was filled with newspapers... of course noodles telling max that he is crazy gave max a perfect chance to knck him out.


Title: Re:What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: cigar joe on July 08, 2003, 02:43:35 AM
I agree alexander, lets face it Max was an Asshole, somehow he found out about Noodles plan to finger the gang (probably from Eve). So what does he do he decides to grab all the money and run. He screws both Eve and Noodles, lets the Cockeye and Patsy get killed,  lets Noodles live believing he was responcible and takes everything away from him. Probably all in cahoots with the Mafia and the police. Now the gangsters that were after Noodles were probably sent by Pesci and Max to scare Noodles out of town by killing his girlfriend and terrorizing Fat Moe.


Title: Re:What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: alexander on July 08, 2003, 10:02:24 AM
very much agreed! i think it is a mistake commonly made by the viewers of this movie that max and noodles loved eachother. noodles did love max with all of his heart, i mean come on! he went to him when he was calling him and left deborah. "your mother is calling you". but max, max wasn't capable of that feeling!
he knew what a bastard he was, but i think there is only one place where he himself is disgusted at his own actions. that is in the end where noodles refuses to kill him. does noodles really not recognize max? of course he does. than why doesn't he kill him for all he's done? i think that the answer is one of the best messages in the movie!


Title: Re:What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: Jon on July 08, 2003, 01:00:55 PM
Iagree totally.I don't think Noodles'' love for Max was of a homosexual nature,it was more of a brotherly or 'male-bonding' kind of love,but it was definately a love.Max never returns,this love,in fact he never seems to love anybody in the film,certainly not Carol.Max obviuosly felt a 'bond'with Noodles,but as he became more ambitious and started 'making plans' this became less and less important to him.

I love it when Noodles refuses to kill Max,it is the only scene in the film [with him and Max]where Noodles is in some sort of control.The only Leone film not to end with a shooting!


Title: Re:What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: cigar joe on July 08, 2003, 05:47:27 PM
One mistake in my previous statement, Max probably learned of the Noodles fingering the gang plot from Carol.


Title: Re:What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: aaronson on July 09, 2003, 03:41:02 AM
Well ,well, well . I absolutely don't agree with you .Max loves Noodles.He loved him from the beginning (when he told to the cop"he his my uncle" ) till the end  (when he jumped to the garbage-truck).

Max shared with Noodles street business, fight with others gang, first sex experience on the roof , first success and money till the cop murder. He shared a youth.

Max did' nt like young Deborah because she took his best friend.

Max helped Noodles' parents, protecting  Noodles interest in the speakeasy.

Who and nobody else was waiting Noodles at the jail gate ? . Who has imagined the "dead" girl in the funeral car? Who was so glad to show him the success of the speakeasy ?.

Max , even after a conflict with Noodles , always run after him telling him: I also want to take a bath . He always tried to save their friendship

In fact before the treason Max is the friend that I always dreamt. It's also a reason "why we love OUATIA so much"

Homosexual ?  may be , but reciprocally , remember Noodles immediately didnt like Eve and Max affair.And begin to quit the team.

Max crazy ?  but Noodles after jail is a little bit mad too. Junkie and lonesome, and raper (twice) and able to put a car in the lake.

Max and Noodles are like brothers: different and similar.

If Max decided to become  adult, to make a big career, I'm sure it was very painful for him. The price to paid was  very high.

But as said the Turk in Godfather"it's not personal, it's only "bisiness".


Title: Re:What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: alexander on July 09, 2003, 02:19:53 PM
i agree with a lot of what you say. i mean it would be hard to disagree - they were definite partners in crime. and they were childhood friends. but i insist that max did not love noodles. of course he wanted him out of prison and back in the gang. cockeye and patsy weren't able to mastermind anything. they were secondary partners. had max loved noodles he wouldn't have gotten the throne!
besides max never lost noodles to deborah. noodles always went when max called him.


Title: Re:What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: cigar joe on July 09, 2003, 05:28:18 PM
I think Max started to turn on Noodles when he felt that Noodles began to disrespect him. Each time Noodles called Max "crazy" Max would react more and more violently. Of course Noodles showed absolutely no tack in trying to persuade Max from his sceems, but Noodles was by nature tackless. As long as they agreed they got along.


Title: Re:What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: Nobody on December 07, 2003, 05:12:33 AM
There are definately som kind of homosexual themes to be read from this. It could even be that Max is homosexual. He gets angry and jealous when Noodles has a girl, and he always talk about getting things up the behind.

Homosexual themes or not, it`s still perhaps the greatest film ever made.


Title: Re:What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: Walter on December 08, 2003, 06:49:00 PM
There are definately som kind of homosexual themes to be read from this. It could even be that Max is homosexual. He gets angry and jealous when Noodles has a girl, and he always talk about getting things up the behind.

Homosexual themes or not, it`s still perhaps the greatest film ever made.

Of course Max hit Noodles to keep him out of the shooting. It was a blend of revenge and love.  

'Cause I think you're on to something here, Nobody.
There is a lot of mixed emotions here, I think. Noodles loves Max as his best friend. Max wants to love Noodles as a friend, but can't.  As he'd rather want to love him as a lover. Not too kosher in them days, especially not in the circles they moved in.  

This is what makes Max envious of Noodles.
Actually, Noodles doesn't have anything that Max doesn't, he doesn't even have Deborah. The only thing that Noodles has, is a relatively uncomplicated sexuality. A sexuality he kind of shows off to Max, first when he's with Deborah as a lovesick kid, later with the brutal rape. Two completely different takes on heterosexual activity, both strangers to Max.
 
But no matter how much money and power Max gets, he can never really enjoy it. Obviously, he doesn't enjoy the girl. Which may be the reason why he treats her pretty badly. (That she likes it, is another thing.)

He finally takes revenge on his friend (that he loves more than a friend), unable to kill him, he tries to be some kind of warped, "successful" version of Noodles.
But that doesn't make things better. He takes Deborah. No real happiness to be found for either one of them inthat relationship.
Only shame. As he grows old and his empire dies around him, he may even understand that the sexuality actually was not that important, and the moment he really lost all, was when he set up his friend.

Which is why he offers him a revenge, and which Noodles declines....    



Title: Re:What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: COLONNA on December 12, 2003, 03:42:06 AM
Remember: Before knocking Noodles out,  Max tried to convince him TO STAY AT THE SPEAKEASY and only after Noodles refused answering" Eveywhere you go, I go" he  decided to beat him.
Clearly Max had made the sacrifice of Cockeye and Patsy, but not of Noodles.
Its a great proof of love !  :-\


Title: Re: What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: hatamis on September 15, 2005, 05:27:40 AM
don't forget one of the main themes of the film : the passage of childhood to adult.
Max and Noodles are friends.
Noodles loves the satisfactions and the "games" of childhood time : like "play the gangsters"...
Max wants to succeed in his adult life.

in 1933, Max has reached a position but he wants to be recognized as someone respected.
after the prison, has Noodles became an adult??
Noodles quickly understand that the life of his friends in 1933 is not so "exciting" as before.
he wants a more crazy life (the car in the sea), he
wants to feel the feelings of his childhood.
but he understant that now it's too serious : he doesn t want to work with politicians.
when he was child he wants to appear like gangsters (remember the 5 boys with their jacket and suit) but it was a game and the death of dominic and the murder of bugsy sent Noodles on the other side : the world of adults.

Max has to separe himself from Noodles because he understant that he was not able to follow him in his dreams of great and successful life.
Success for Max is material
Success for Noodles is immetarial (feelings)

Perhaps, Max does not want to kill Noodles (although he can "killed" Patsy and Cockeye) because Noodles impresses him because he is not attach to material things.
he envies him not to be so materialist.
Max avoids to be "crazy"
Noodles wants to be crazy...
Max knows that in order to succes, "crazyness" has to disappear in his life


at last,
Max knows that he has to die.
but he wants to be sure that he succeeds in his life.
and he can now that through a "duel" with Noodles.
Noodles is his old friend, the one who count the most for him.
only him can killed him Max says.
In fact the mind of Noodles is very important to Max and he is waiting for Noodles.
he wants that noodles recognize that he is great.
he wants noodles to kill him :because it significates that noodles was disappointed and really envies his life, and so that Noodles points that Max's life was great.
Perhaps Max is waiting for "you are crazy", but he could reply "look, look, look..."

But noodles has the answer who "kill" and sends Max (his personage) in garbage (in bin).
He imitates the language of Max (of adults) with lot of reveration... with very impersonnal words.
Max is "dead" since 1933. The Max of his childhood.
Noodles will never recognize that Max was successfull.
although he recognizes that his adult life was not a succes he prefers to "come back" in his happy moments (1920s and 1933) in the opium room.


ps : i'm french and i hope my english is understable



Title: Re: What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: Uomo_senza_ nome on September 20, 2005, 11:22:28 AM
U guys should really try to read the book, the hoods. Even though it dosen't follow the movie bit by bit, it gives us nice insights of the characters


Title: Re: What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: Alan Shearer 9 on September 21, 2005, 08:05:30 AM
penis envy?


Title: Re:What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: hatamis on September 26, 2005, 04:00:23 AM
Remember: Before knocking Noodles out,  Max tried to convince him TO STAY AT THE SPEAKEASY and only after Noodles refused answering" Eveywhere you go, I go" he  decided to beat him.
Clearly Max had made the sacrifice of Cockeye and Patsy, but not of Noodles.
Its a great proof of love !  :-\

i stil couldn't understand how Max could have sacrificed Pasty and Cockeye, childhood friends and associates during ten years in their gangsters lifes.
this characters were also always sympathic in the film (during thier childhood and after that during the "parodies" of gangsters film),
it's hard for a basic spectator to see them killed and totally forgotten after that...
well, they were gangsters, violent etc... but why Max killed them?
for me it's not understandable!

Perhaps Leone Wanted to show that old (gangster ) cinema is dead through the death of these characters of gangsters???
Leone wanted to show that commercial cinema killed the great cinema ??

after that :
why Max later have paid a great "mausolee" (it's a fench terme means a great tomb).
How could kill his friends and after that, made for  them these rich great temple???
a temple of the old cinema for Leone ???

this film deals with friendship...
between Max and Noodles..
why Patsy and Cockeye in the end didn't signified nothnig for Max and Noodles???
to show that a true and strong relation can only happen between two people ??? Noodles and "his mother" or "uncle" Max




Title: Re: What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: Dlanor on October 06, 2005, 12:00:22 PM
I read in Conversation with Leone than he thought that friendship was based on esteem. I think the scene of Max knocking Noodles is an illustration of Leone conception of friendship.
 Maybe he couldn't bare to be despised, not to be taken seriously by his friends in private life.


Title: Re:What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: HEX on October 06, 2005, 08:25:00 PM


it is obvious why he knocks noodles out.he loves the man.

but what i have always found a bit unsettling is that why would he allow cockeye and patsy to die(yes i know cuz of greed and what not but still)
i know he loved NOODLES  more then anyone else but no love for the other two? what gives?


maybe he regrets it later as senator bailey?u think?


Title: Re: What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: DJASh on October 27, 2005, 04:05:55 PM
Its all a set up...Max puts the idea of the one last booze smuggling job into Noodles' head ( to put him in jail and therefore stop the crazy plan to raid the Federal Reserve) via his trusty Dame...Max knows who Noodles has phoned and knows what he is doing when he knocks him out.


Title: Re: What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ?
Post by: Blueberry on October 28, 2005, 03:30:30 AM
Its all a set up...Max puts the idea of the one last booze smuggling job into Noodles' head ( to put him in jail and therefore stop the crazy plan to raid the Federal Reserve) via his trusty Dame...Max knows who Noodles has phoned and knows what he is doing when he knocks him out.

That's right - check out this tread:
http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=816.0