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Films of Sergio Leone => Other Films => Topic started by: cigar joe on October 28, 2006, 10:30:58 AM



Title: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: cigar joe on October 28, 2006, 10:30:58 AM
This Almeria shot film was Dir. by Frank Perry, and stared Stacey Keach (Doc Holiday), Faye Dunaway (Kate Elder), Harris Yulin (Wyatt Earp), and Michale Whitney (Ike Clanton). I also noticed Dan Van Husen in a minor part but no other regulars from SW's

The copy I saw was a full screen VHS 96 min. but it seemed cut, there were the usual indications of trimming.

The best thing about this film is the atmosphere, its looks as it should for Tombstone circa 1881 (looks like El Paso set from FAFDM), the Alhambra saloon interiors, the outdoor party, the poker game, are done really well. The saloon even has a mariachi band playing the dance music a nice touch. It sort of homages Altman a bit in the political party sequence. Other than those its pretty dull.

Its even got a unique take on the whole Tombstone affair that it was just a turf fight between competing mob bosses Earps & the Clanton's & McLowery's, everybodys a crook, lol.

It all falls apart though because it trys to be a bit too psychological for its own good, and the other problem with charaters based on historical figures is it doesn't even remotely follow the actual history.

Costuming, sets with dirt & dust, all look good. Earp even uses his Buntline special to cold cock rowdies in a few scenes.

Keach and Yullin are believeable in their parts but they fail to achieve any Iconic status, Dunaway isn't believable, she seems a bit too uptight for a whore. Earps brothers & Sheriff Johny Behan are reduced to minimal parts

All in all, gunplay is at a minimal (for a Western a big no-no IMO) and the gunfight at the OK Corral is a bit of a let down. The score which is minimal has the only catchy mariachi music as the highlight.

Another example of how an American production can screw up a Western even when Leone, Corbucci and Solima basically gave them the new road map (where are our familiar SW extras & bit actors, or great score) even one shot in Almeria.


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: The Peacemaker on October 28, 2006, 10:49:43 AM
I remember seeing this a few years ago and disliking it very much. I remember that the final gunfight was NOTHING like in reality and the movie as a whole was very unbelievable.


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: titoli on October 28, 2006, 02:01:46 PM
Quote
Other than those its pretty dull.

That's what I remember too.


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: cigar joe on October 30, 2006, 08:26:35 PM
 ;)


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: dave jenkins on January 17, 2009, 12:27:53 PM
This title is available on DVD in R2, although I can't tell if it is presented in OAR. The score is apparently by Jimmy Webb. I may have to order it.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001AOHPOY/ref=s9subs_c5_74_img1-rfc_g1_si1?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=0S3M2E1PATWC76WY47JA&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=463374953&pf_rd_i=468294


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: cigar joe on January 17, 2009, 04:16:55 PM
I have it on a VHS tape. It would be nice to get an upgrade wonder what the quality is?


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: dave jenkins on January 17, 2009, 04:21:10 PM
No way to know, I guess, without taking the plunge. If I get it, I'll post screen caps.


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: cigar joe on January 17, 2009, 04:23:36 PM
The link has no comments about quality, a lot of time folks that got burned usually let you know.


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: dave jenkins on January 31, 2009, 07:27:32 PM
Doc (1971) - 7/10. Wow, a true American Spaghetti. Or it woulda been, if they'd followed Leone Rule #1. Instead of gun-play every 10 minutes, we get lots of talky scenes. I guess that's what attracted serious thespians like Stacy Keach and Faye Dunaway to the project in the first place. A shame, though. A good premise--and some wonderful sepia-toned images shot in and around Almeria--are squandered by the time we reach the turgid third act. Why couldn't they have just stuck with the historical account? And if they weren't gonna do that, why didn't they, by way of compensation, at least give us a bit more, you know, action? Well, we're still waiting for someone to give us the definitive Tombstone movie, I hope it arrives in my lifetime.


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: Groggy on January 31, 2009, 07:32:45 PM
Doc's agenda was to paint the Earps as psychopaths and thus make itself resonnate with the hippie/radical crowd it was no doubt targeting.

I agree that no true masterpiece has been done about the Earps - granted I haven't seen Hour of the Gun - but I think we have some worthy efforts out there.


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: dave jenkins on January 31, 2009, 07:34:33 PM
Here's a screen cap from the first scene:
(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/381/cap165ao6.png)


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: dave jenkins on January 31, 2009, 08:15:30 PM
More:

(http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/6971/cap169nt8.png)
Cold beer? We ain't got no cold beer. We ain't gotta serve no stinkin' cold beer!
(http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/194/cap173bl8.png)
10 minutes in and we're already at the desert? Maaaaaaaaaaan!
(http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/1319/cap174xw2.png)
Double bounty on female prisoners in this territory?
(http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/2025/cap177hf3.png)
Is it just me, or does it seem that everyone is doing a lot of smoking in here?
(http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/8971/cap182nz6.png)
Hour of the Gun. And what gun might that be, CJ?
(http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7163/cap187xf7.png)
Is it too late to reference My Darling Clementine?
(http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/4879/cap190pw8.png)
The final walk to the OK. I wonder how it'll turn out this time?


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: cigar joe on February 01, 2009, 06:10:28 PM
Very cool I need an Upgrade  O0


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: The Firecracker on February 01, 2009, 07:01:11 PM
I remember seeing this a few years ago and disliking it very much.

At the very least the film is very good looking.


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: dave jenkins on February 01, 2009, 07:28:57 PM
Also, it has an almost complete absence of music. Except for the piece that runs over the closing credits, the only music in the film is that which the characters perform very occasionally within scenes.

The film is also edited like a Spaghetti. I note that earlier CJ aired his suspicion that the film has lost some intended footage, but I don't think that's the case. The inelegant editing is intentional, an attempt to replicate the feel of SWs (which were often cut).


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: dave jenkins on February 28, 2009, 01:58:40 PM
DVD coming to R1 on May 12.


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: cigar joe on February 28, 2009, 04:51:38 PM
Great news  O0


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: Groggy on February 28, 2009, 05:57:40 PM
The whole Earp clan packing shotguns in the gunfight? Yikes. :o


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: The Firecracker on March 01, 2009, 01:02:40 PM
This was on last night on Encore westerns.


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: noodles_leone on March 01, 2009, 01:44:46 PM
This was on last night on Encore westerns.

Have you seen it?


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 13, 2011, 08:08:01 AM
I just saw "Doc."  

Did not like it at all. Waaay too much heavy dialogue, too little action, everything way too serious, and virtually no score other than the nice mariachi band in an early saloon scene. The movie, as well as the Doc & Wyatt  performances by Keach and Yulin, are easily my least-favorite of all the Doc/Wyatt/GAOKC films.

The only thing I liked about the film is that like Leone films, everything is "dirty," rather than the freshly scrubbed look of some AW's. That is the only decent thing about the film. Other than that, it is a complete waste of time.

I rented it off iTunes. I had a laugh when after watching the movie, I read iTunes' description of the film: "A fanatically accurate retellling of the familiar Wyatt Earp/Doc Holliday story in Tombstone..." If I began to discuss all the inaccuracies (just in the actual Gunfight) I'd run outta the character limit  ;), so I won't bother. Suffice it to say that the movie is as inaccurate as just about all the others that are purportedly about the Wyatt/Doc story. (As far as I recall, the two films which depict the Gunfight most accurately are "Tombstone" and "Wyatt Earp" [which, before I saw "Doc" were my least favorite of all the Wyatt/Doc films]).

The version I saw is also 96 minutes


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 13, 2011, 08:36:10 AM
Does anyone know whether it is in fact the El Paso set from FAFDM, as cigarjoe suggested? (I would hate it if they defiled that classic set on this awful a film  ;) )


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: The Firecracker on March 14, 2011, 12:10:51 AM
Saw it some months ago.

All I've got to say is that DJ spoiled us with some really nice stills.

5/10


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: Dust Devil on March 14, 2011, 12:51:13 AM
I'd really like to see this one.


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 14, 2011, 02:14:03 AM
I'd really like to see this one.

no you wouldn't... it's not  a good film   ;)


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: stanton on March 14, 2011, 02:57:09 AM
I think it is a good film. One of the most extreme of the 70s revisionist westerns, and at times a bit too pretentious.

But I like Doc to a certain extent. A 6 or maybe 7/10 film

Time for a re-watch


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: dave jenkins on March 14, 2011, 11:09:44 AM
All I've got to say is that DJ spoiled us with some really nice stills.
You're welcome.

In summation: Good visuals, shame about the story.


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: titoli on March 14, 2011, 01:53:39 PM
In summation: Good visuals, shame about the story.

That's a classic recipe for boredom. Which is what I remember about my watching this movie twice.


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: dave jenkins on March 14, 2011, 02:21:27 PM
That's a classic recipe for boredom.
Not a Wenders fan, I take it?


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: titoli on March 14, 2011, 08:39:31 PM
Not a Wenders fan, I take it?

You read my mind.


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: The Firecracker on March 18, 2011, 07:35:46 PM
(http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/4879/cap190pw8.png)
The final walk to the OK. I wonder how it'll turn out this time?

For whatever reason the above sarcastic comment made me think the movie would depict a "what if" scenario of the Clanton boys winning the fire fight.


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: dave jenkins on October 18, 2011, 06:36:00 PM
Nope. For that you've got to go to "Spectre of the Gun" (where Captain "Ike Clanton" Kirk and the boys send the Earps back to limbo).

Anyway, Doc is certainly a lousy film. And when the Blu-ray comes out, I'll be first in line to get it.


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: Groggy on October 18, 2011, 07:30:14 PM
Full review. Feel free to skip the angry young fogey rant in the first few paragraphs. O0

Quote
The early '70s were the heyday of the revisionist Western. Earlier films like Devil's Doorway and The Gunfighter questioned the frontier myth to varying degrees, but it wasn't until the late '60s that the backlash against Manifest Destiny flowered. Westerns inevitably reflect contemporary social mores, and heroic cowboys fighting black-hatted bad guys, shooting Indians and winning the West didn't jive with the counterculture zeitgeist, John Wayne's later vehicles notwithstanding.

This new breed of oaters provided very modern takes on Native Americans (Little Big Man), race relations (Hombre), legendary gunfighters (Dirty Little Billy) and outlaws (The Great Northfield, Minnesota Raid). These films also aped Sam Peckinpah's hyperviolence and Sergio Leone's daffy plotting, to little effect. The super-polished look of old-school Hollywood gave way to faux-"authentic" griminess: films like The Culpepper Cattle Co. see looking filthy as an end unto itself.

Inevitably Wyatt Earp, the legendary symbol of law and order, came under fire. John Sturges's flawed but interesting Hour of the Gun (1967) showed that Earp wasn't an angel, but Frank Perry's Doc (1971) depicts him as a greedy, murderous crook. This angle might be worthy of consideration if the film containing it weren't so crummy.

Tubercular gunfighter Doc Holiday (Stacy Keach) rolls into Tombstone, Arizona at the behest of old pal Wyatt Earp (Harris Yulin), a two-fisted Marshal with political ambitions. Earp's caught in the middle of a feud with County Sheriff John Behan (Richard McKenzie) and the Clanton-run Cowboys and needs Doc's help to muscle out his rivals. Doc juggles a relationship with Kate Elder (Faye Dunaway), a whore he met on the road to Tombstone and mentors a young gunslinger (Denver John Phillips), making him reconsider his plans. Events come to a head, however, as Wyatt goads the Cowboys into a one-sided showdown at the OK Corral, compelling Doc to take sides.

Doc starts off brilliantly: a bone-tired Doc saunters into a trading post, picking a fight with two saddle-tramps and "winning" Kate in a card game. This scene is beautifully shot and remarkably tense, setting the stage for an interesting Western. Not to worry though, Doc soon abandons this interesting direction in favor of pompous mediocrity.

By making Doc Holiday his protagonist, Perry exorciates Wyatt Earp. The film depicts Earp as a glorified mob boss, knee-deep in vice rackets, politically ambitious and ruling Tombstone with an iron fist. The real Earp had many of these traits, but in depicting the Cowboys as harmless victims and Johnny Behan as "honest" (!) Doc forfeits its claims to realism. In this context, the ludicrous staging of the OK Corral showdown, with the Earp clan mowing down the surrendering Clantons with shotguns, seems perversely appropriate.

Warping history is the least of Doc's problems, however. The movie's focus on Doc's romance with Kate falters due to a strange relationship arc and an unconvincing resolution. Doc's paternal relationship with The Kid builds to a groan-worthy conclusion: by taking part in the OK gundown it's like Doc is (gasp!) killing himself! And that's not to mention Pete Hamil's awful dialogue: don't miss Doc and Kate's heartfelt conversation about flatulence. Sure, the sets are believably rustic and there's plenty of familiar Almerian scenery to admire, but plenty of better Westerns can say the same.

Stacy Keach redeems a lot with his excellent performance, capturing Doc's inner conflict and hopeless resignation. The rest of the cast is weak. Faye Dunaway's vulgar Kate is about as convincing a frontier gal as Candice Bergen in Soldier Blue: her amusing trollop in Little Big Man is much more credible. Harris Yulin's (Scarface) crooked Earp is a one-dimensional punk and Denver John Phillips can't act to save his life.

Ultimately, Doc says more about its era than the real Wyatt Earp. By tearing down a legendary hero and abandoning comprehensible narrative, it epitomizes the shortcomings of '70s Westerns.  5/10

http://nothingiswrittenfilm.blogspot.com/2011/10/doc.html (http://nothingiswrittenfilm.blogspot.com/2011/10/doc.html)

Or for our friend Richard:

(http://www.waggish.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/jay_sherman_it_stinks_xlarge1.jpeg)


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: dave jenkins on October 18, 2011, 08:11:52 PM
If I could save only one paragraph from the above it would be this:
Quote
Doc starts off brilliantly: a bone-tired Doc saunters into a trading post, picking a fight with two saddle-tramps and "winning" Kate in a card game. This scene is beautifully shot and remarkably tense, setting the stage for an interesting Western. Not to worry though, Doc soon abandons this interesting direction in favor of pompous mediocrity.

Sums things up very nicely.


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: Groggy on October 21, 2011, 01:44:30 PM
You did give it a 7/10. I guess your definition of lousy is different than mine which isn't surprising.


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: dave jenkins on October 21, 2011, 02:17:27 PM
You did give it a 7/10. I guess your definition of lousy is different than mine which isn't surprising.
Well, I recognize that it's a lousy picture BUT I also enjoy watching it and--to use Wordsworth's formula--"recollecting it in tranquility"--and I assign value based on how I feel about a film, not based on some "objective" standard of greatness. Genre pictures can do better with me than pretentious (or even unpretentious) "arthouse" fare, which is why, to cite two examples, I gave Columbiana a 10 but The Tree of Life considerably less.


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: noodles_leone on January 16, 2013, 03:10:41 PM
Not a Wenders fan, I take it?

Wenders himself is not a fan of his "nice pictures no story" films.


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: Dust Devil on December 20, 2014, 11:49:00 AM
I am praying for this to end...


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: Dust Devil on December 20, 2014, 12:51:23 PM
Doc starts off brilliantly: a bone-tired Doc saunters into a trading post, picking a fight with two saddle-tramps and "winning" Kate in a card game. This scene is beautifully shot and remarkably tense, setting the stage for an interesting Western. Not to worry though, Doc soon abandons this interesting direction in favor of pompous mediocrity.

Yep. :)

Even Yulin, a rather interesting character actor, corrodes his own scenes with psychotic mannerisms.


4/10


Title: Re: 'Doc' (1971)
Post by: dave jenkins on February 20, 2016, 01:26:32 PM
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film5/blu-ray_reviews_70/doc_blu-ray.htm

I can't believe I haven't ordered this yet. Well, there's a bunch of better things in my queue to get through first . . .