Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => For a Few Dollars More => Topic started by: tokyorose on February 26, 2007, 08:49:51 PM



Title: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: tokyorose on February 26, 2007, 08:49:51 PM
I'm about to be very pedantic and annoying here, so just skip on if you'd like.

SPOILER ALERT!!!





In the final flashback when Indio groggily reminisces about his attack on the young couple and in particular, the rape of the female victim, the scene is so squeaky-clean that one wonders why the critics were making so much noise about Leone's films being ultra violent.  It would take the average woman several hours at the salon to look as good as this lady does in the wake of a vicious assault.  Her make-up is flawless and she hasn't a hair out of place.  And as for the fatal point-blank gunshot wound she inflicts on herself,  there is just one neat little bloodless hole in her side, and she dies instantaneously instead of bleeding to death, which is usually the cause of death by gunshot.  The whole thing seemed as though we had suddenly shifted gears from a spaghetti western to a Bonanza episode. 

Perhaps we're meant to believe that this is Indio's wierdly romanticized version of the actual event (and he does romanticize over the incident in a very wierd way) but I find that this presentation trivializes the horror of the woman's rape/suicide.  I think I'd feel much more antipathy for Indio and sympathy for Mortimer if there had been just a little more gritty realism.

But just a little more.  Hell, I thought Scooby Do was scary!


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: Faisalha9159 on February 27, 2007, 01:56:58 PM
I think if the rape scene had been anymore "real" then maybe it would have been censored anyway. Also a lot of the shootings etc were squeaky clean as well. Just a small example is the shooting at the beginning where Col. Mortimer in a very professional manner executes his first bounty kill- you can`t get much cleaner than that. There are many more examples of this type of thing, but I guess that`s what movies are all about.


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: Kurug3n on February 27, 2007, 03:50:18 PM
Also a lot of the shootings etc were squeaky clean as well. Just a small example is the shooting at the beginning where Col. Mortimer in a very professional manner executes his first bounty kill- you can`t get much cleaner than that.

Clean?? what do you mean by this?


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: The Peacemaker on February 27, 2007, 03:53:01 PM
Clean?? what do you mean by this?

Lack of blood, no suffering, etc.


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: tokyorose on February 27, 2007, 04:07:21 PM
Yeah...funny I should be complaining about this when I can't stand gore-fest movies at all...

That perfect hair and make-up was pretty surreal, though.


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: dave jenkins on February 28, 2007, 08:35:15 AM


Perhaps we're meant to believe that this is Indio's wierdly romanticized version of the actual event (and he does romanticize over the incident in a very wierd way) but I find that this presentation trivializes the horror of the woman's rape/suicide.  I think I'd feel much more antipathy for Indio and sympathy for Mortimer if there had been just a little more gritty realism.
I think you've got this nailed, except that the flashbacks are intended to provide sympathy (or at least, understanding) for Indio. For him, the death of Mortimer's sister was not a horrible experience, it was his initiation into liebestod, or "death-love." Hence, the highly aestheticized nature of the flashbacks: Indio's treasured memories.


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: Kurug3n on February 28, 2007, 07:19:16 PM
Lack of blood, no suffering, etc.

yeah nowadays but that bullet hole in his head was pretty extreme back then or so i've read


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: The Peacemaker on March 01, 2007, 01:45:31 PM
yeah nowadays but that bullet hole in his head was pretty extreme back then or so i've read

Oh yeah, back then it was a huge thing.

The movie came out in America in 1967, before Peckinpah's blood baths, so audiences were not use to seeing that kind of harsh violence. At this time, American westerns were still showing people getting shot, squint their eyes, and fall down softly to show the effect of a bullet.   ::)


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: Tim on March 01, 2007, 10:43:52 PM
Quote
At this time, American westerns were still showing people getting shot, squint their eyes, and fall down softly to show the effect of a bullet.

  I watched The Magnificent Seven recently and noticed something like this, peace.  While its obviously not to the extremes of say Bonnie and Clyde or The Wild Bunch, Mag7 does have some blood, especially in the final gun battle.  Looks to be a tiny squib on Bernardo when he gets shot, some of the bandits have blood soak through their clothes, and Britt has the same when he gets picked off.

  Like I said, it's not as graphic as the others, but for 1960 it's not too bad when you compare it to the other westerns in the same span.


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: The Peacemaker on March 02, 2007, 02:56:51 PM
  I watched The Magnificent Seven recently and noticed something like this, peace.  While its obviously not to the extremes of say Bonnie and Clyde or The Wild Bunch, Mag7 does have some blood, especially in the final gun battle.  Looks to be a tiny squib on Bernardo when he gets shot, some of the bandits have blood soak through their clothes, and Britt has the same when he gets picked off.

  Like I said, it's not as graphic as the others, but for 1960 it's not too bad when you compare it to the other westerns in the same span.

I didn't mean use of blood, I meant use of bullet effect.

In the American westerns you never saw the person shot spin and around or fly backwards, except in Shane.


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: poderator on April 05, 2007, 04:13:59 AM
I think you've got this nailed, except that the flashbacks are intended to provide sympathy (or at least, understanding) for Indio. For him, the death of Mortimer's sister was not a horrible experience, it was his initiation into liebestod, or "death-love." Hence, the highly aestheticized nature of the flashbacks: Indio's treasured memories.
I agree with almost everything you said, but I strongly disagree that death of Mortimer's sister was not a horrible expirience for Indio. If that's true then why all that guilty look on his face?
Indio killed women and child that belong to his former gunmen. Not by his hand literary but still that's his deed. He tried to murder col. Mortimer by cheating. Indio has guilty conscious, there is no doubt about it.
Whenever he saw that watch he become tatally obsesed. Hell, he manage to make this watch the central hub of his existence. He can't do anything without that watch, not even kill a man. Indio's memories are attached to his watch, and picture of Mortimer's sister is inside. So it was a horrible expirience for him. Truth is, we dont't know for sure what Indio's relationship with that woman really mean. I think they shared past long before that flashback scene even occur. If not then why would Indio be so emotionaly attached to his/her watch, and that particulary memory? It would be just one rape and murder more on his list. We see that he doesn't have a problem when it comes to kill people in general. He has a problem with that one particular murder. Indio cried in that last showdown. He certainly didn't cry because he was afraid of col. Mortimer. His confidence is crushed because mortimer's name reminded him on that very moment, and all his emotional trauma that Sergio built trough the entire film reached the climax in the showdown, with Indio's tears. Indio isn't afraid of the person. He is afraid and haunted by his own mind, and his own thoughts.
Another thing; col. Mortimer said his name to Indio at the and of the movie. That means they knew each other before. Maybe they had some unfinished bussines, and that's why Indio killed his sister. Oposite is impossible, because Indio killed the guy and Sister killed herself. No evidents, no one was left alive to tell Mortimer that Indio killed her. It must be this first. Or Not ::)


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: Cusser on April 05, 2007, 01:00:11 PM
Correct - Indio recognized Mortimer's name, then put on the gunbelt to face him.  Mortimer stated his name because he knew (for not-explained reason) that Indio would recognize it, and would confront him.  So one can surmise that Indio knew Mortimer's sister before she was married (still a Mortimer). 


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: dave jenkins on April 05, 2007, 06:18:23 PM
I agree with almost everything you said, but I strongly disagree that death of Mortimer's sister was not a horrible expirience for Indio. If that's true then why all that guilty look on his face?
Indio killed women and child that belong to his former gunmen. Not by his hand literary but still that's his deed. He tried to murder col. Mortimer by cheating. Indio has guilty conscious, there is no doubt about it.
Whenever he saw that watch he become tatally obsesed. Hell, he manage to make this watch the central hub of his existence. He can't do anything without that watch, not even kill a man. Indio's memories are attached to his watch, and picture of Mortimer's sister is inside. So it was a horrible expirience for him. Truth is, we dont't know for sure what Indio's relationship with that woman really mean. I think they shared past long before that flashback scene even occur. If not then why would Indio be so emotionaly attached to his/her watch, and that particulary memory? It would be just one rape and murder more on his list. We see that he doesn't have a problem when it comes to kill people in general. He has a problem with that one particular murder. Indio cried in that last showdown. He certainly didn't cry because he was afraid of col. Mortimer. His confidence is crushed because mortimer's name reminded him on that very moment, and all his emotional trauma that Sergio built trough the entire film reached the climax in the showdown, with Indio's tears. Indio isn't afraid of the person. He is afraid and haunted by his own mind, and his own thoughts.
Well, we just see these things differently. I think Indio becomes fascinated by death when Mortimer's sister kills herself rather than submit to rape. It gets him thinking. Before, killing others meant nothing to him; afterwards he gets off watching people die (hence the need for Jimson weed afterwards, for a kind of post-coital wind down). Sex and killing are mixed up in his mind. And he knows that someday he's gonna have his ultimate moment of climax as well. When he hears Mortimer's name at the end, he knows that day has arrived. Those tears are tears of joy.


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: poderator on April 06, 2007, 01:04:42 AM
My point is: Mortimer throw his name in front of Indio.  It suppose to mean something to Indio, to provoke his reaction. And reaction came instantly. No one knows that Indio killed those two, but still Mortimer knows who killed his sister. OK, maybe he find out somehow, but how come Indio knows who Mortimer is? We don't know if that event from the flashback was Indio's first murder. He sure looks pretty calm to me. Indio is fascinated there is no doubt about that. But Indio and Mortimer shared their past long before those flashback events even occur. That's my opinion.


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: dave jenkins on April 06, 2007, 07:35:41 AM
Maybe. But the Mortimer family is a well-known Carolina family, so it would be hard for Indio not to know who he tried to rape, either before or after the event. In fact, on my theory, he would have been so interested in the mysterious girl who left his embrace in order to jump into the arms of death that he would have tried to find out all he could about her. The name Mortimer (and of course the word mort is in there) then would become totemic, something he not only recognizes instantly, but that fills him with awe, dread and reverence.

Of course, Mortimer's sister is also Angel Eyes' sister; maybe Indio and AE pulled a few jobs together and Indio learned about the sister through Mortimer's evil twin..... ;D

(Here's another wrinkle: Mortimer essentially executes sentence on Indio for his crimes, and thus can be called "Sentenza").


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: poderator on April 07, 2007, 11:05:28 AM
Well, very often names in Sergio's movies have their simbolic meaning. Word MORT exist in the OUATIW too (Morton), and he also brings death. ;) I guess thats why thiese movies are so appealing. You can't  find only one true meaning, you find many and they all can coexist without any problems. Film has many layers, and thats why we love them. O0


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: Noodles_SlowStir on May 03, 2007, 11:14:21 AM
I definitely agree with the sex-death idea.  Also as stated, the smoking of the jimson or herb afterward makes it quite obvious and explicit. The association between the sexual act and taking lives, death.   After the rape/suicide, Indio makes killing a ritual in which he definitely gets off.  His own little courtship with death.    I also felt that there was a bit something more to the experience for Indio that affected him emotionally and psychologically (even though  he's definitely a psychopath to begin with).  I considered that possibly it was the act of "rejection" by Mortimer's sister in taking her life while he forcibly takes her.  I decided that wouldn't of meant anything to him.  I think what shook Indio was that he becomes aware for maybe the first time of his own mortality or how close to death he had come.  More than any close calls from other robberies or being caught by the law and locked away with the possibility of execution, Mortimer's sister could of shot him and he wouldn't even of seen it coming.  I think this really unsettles this already quite disturbed person.  I'm not sure whether Indio and Mortimer would of crossed paths before.  I think that Mortimer would of been tracking Indio for sometime after he took care of his family matters.  Possibly Indio would of been aware of that.  When he hears Mortimer's name he would know what the deal was.  I agree that the Mortimer family name probably would of been known in those parts.  Mortimer was probably from a wealthy southern family and also was known for his service in the war.  The oral tradition was very important in the West in those days with so few newspapers.  Maybe Indio knew the connection between Mortimer and the victim/sister by his own crime resume.  It seems he got off by seeing and being known for his exploits.  He allows that one prison person to live so that he can relate his escape story back to the authorities.   Think about all those long detailed criminal acts read at Tuco's "executions" in GBU which were quite funny scenes.


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: dave jenkins on May 03, 2007, 02:58:21 PM
I definitely agree with the sex-death idea.  Also as stated, the smoking of the jimson or herb afterward makes it quite obvious and explicit. The association between the sexual act and taking lives, death.   After the rape/suicide, Indio makes killing a ritual in which he definitely gets off.  His own little courtship with death.    I also felt that there was a bit something more to the experience for Indio that affected him emotionally and psychologically (even though  he's definitely a psychopath to begin with). 
Since you agree with me I can only say, Right on! O0 I think you're all right, Noodles_SlowStir, I don't care WHAT marmota-b says about you......


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: Noodles_SlowStir on May 03, 2007, 03:17:02 PM
Since you agree with me I can only say, Right on! O0 I think you're all right, Noodles_SlowStir, I don't care WHAT marmota-b says about you......

 ;D      :)(usmev)


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 06, 2013, 03:28:15 PM
I think you've got this nailed, except that the flashbacks are intended to provide sympathy (or at least, understanding) for Indio. For him, the death of Mortimer's sister was not a horrible experience, it was his initiation into liebestod, or "death-love." Hence, the highly aestheticized nature of the flashbacks: Indio's treasured memories.


I think Indio is haunted by the memory of the suicide.

Not that he has a conscience and feels bad about what he did; he is a psychopath. But the fact that he had, as Frayling says, "a sexual act interrupted" by suicide IMO has had a very traumatic effect on him. I don't think he treasures the memory in any way; to the contrary, I think he is haunted by it.


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: Big Boss 1971 on December 21, 2013, 03:20:18 AM
FoD , FAF$M & GBU......hardcore by Norways standard and were banned , hell GBU did not premiere there until '82 ! (on VHS I bet)


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: Smokey on December 21, 2013, 08:26:19 AM
Anybody ever wonder why she didn't just shoot Indio instead of herself? I guess the movie would have been over.


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 21, 2013, 05:47:19 PM
Anybody ever wonder why she didn't just shoot Indio instead of herself? I guess the movie would have been over.

the point is she didn't want to live after being raped and having seen her boyfriend/husband killed in front of her. Even if she would have killed Indio first (in which case the movie would have been over), she still would have killed herself. She was so distraught and wanted to end her life; when someone is in a state of utter despair, they aren't thinking about revenge. They just wanna be done with it all.


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: stanton on December 22, 2013, 07:02:02 AM
Normally Drink would call this ridiculous and unbelievable. I wonder that you defend such a silly plot device here.

Actually I never thought about that being unrealistic, even if it obviously is. We often buy things in films by accepting what we see on the screen without questioning it.


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 22, 2013, 08:27:02 AM
Normally Drink would call this ridiculous and unbelievable. I wonder that you defend such a silly plot device here.

Actually I never thought about that being unrealistic, even if it obviously is. We often buy things in films by accepting what we see on the screen without questioning it.

You really think I want every movie to be like the Italian neo-realism  ;D

Anyway, I don't think it's unrealistic for a woman who just saw her man killed and is now raped to not want to live anymore. (perhaps even more so 175 years ago, or so, when the movie takes place, when there probably was  a real stigma about a woman who was raped; as traumatizing as it is to any woman of any era, back then it probably would have been much more difficult for a woman who has been raped to ever get married again... but anyway, at this moment she's not thinking about that. All she knows is that) she's distraught and wants to die, period. when someone is so distraught as to want to die immediately, I don't know if they stop and say, "let me get revenge first." they want it to be over with and that's all. Moreover, for some decent people, it's not easy to kill another person - even someone as evil, and who inflicted as much harm, as Indio. There are plenty of people who could absolutely never bring themselves to pull the trigger on another human being, no matter how evil he is. they may be so traumatized they wanna die instantly but can't bring themselves to kill someone else, or simply don't think about anything in that moment other than ending their own life.


IMO, not only does this not cross the line of being within a normal cinematic suspension of disbelief, but I don't think there is ANYTHING non-believable about it. Sure, many women in that situation would have killed Indio; but I think many would have done what this girl did. (And RE: Smokey's original question: it's not a choice between killing Indio OR committing suicide. If she is so distraught that she wants to commit suicide, killing Indio isn't gonna change that. She'd have killed herself regardless of whether or not she killed Indio first. So IMO maybe it's legitimate to ask why she didn't kill Indio first, but not why she didn't kill Indio instead.)

p.s. RE: the rape: I still maintain that I have seen zero evidence to support Frayling's contention that there as an implication that Indio is impotent since this sex act was interrupted by the girl's suicide.


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: stanton on December 22, 2013, 09:56:20 AM
1. I'm not a woman, but I assume that most women would at first try to kill the rapist if they suddenly got a weapon in their hands. The shame can only come after the rape.

2. Killing someone who attacks one is self defense and can't be compared with any other killing. You don't think much about moral issues if someone attacks you.

3. And I don't think that most women would like to kill themselves after a rape. Some yes, but most not. Especially not those who were educated with the belief of suicide being a deadly sin.

4. Frayling probably meant that Indio was traumatised by the suicide and became impotent because of that.


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: drinkanddestroy on December 22, 2013, 11:37:17 AM
1. I'm not a woman, but I assume that most women would at first try to kill the rapist if they suddenly got a weapon in their hands. The shame can only come after the rape.

2. Killing someone who attacks one is self defense and can't be compared with any other killing. You don't think much about moral issues if someone attacks you.

3. And I don't think that most women would like to kill themselves after a rape. Some yes, but most not. Especially not those who were educated with the belief of suicide being a deadly sin.

4. Frayling probably meant that Indio was traumatised by the suicide and became impotent because of that.

RE: #3: It's not a question of whether or not YOU would wanna die if you were in that girls' situation, or even what you think MOST women would do. It's just a question of whether it's believable that this girl would. And you yourself just said you believe that most wouldn't but some would. Well, as long as some would, then the scene is plausible, and no suspension of disbelief whatsoever is required.
The only way this scene doesn't work is if you say that it is completely unrealistic that a woman would wanna kill herself in that situation.
 (and I don't know how religious Indio's sister was and whether she was bothered morally by suicide. It doesn't matter; in the spur of the moment - when in the matter of a few minutes she has witnessed a murder of her man and experienced rape, I can certainly believe she'd wanna die, even if she believed she was going to hell for it.)

RE: 1 & 2 - I wasn't saying that it would be wrong for her to kill Indio - to the contrary, a woman who can kill her rapist absolutely SHOULD do so. And I think that most women in that situation WOULD kill Indio first - even if she knows she is gonna kill herself a second later.
 I'm just saying that it's plausible - for two possible reasons -  that she'd kill herself without first killing Indio: one reason (less likely) is that there are some people that can't bring themselves to kill another human being, period (even though they could bring themselves to commit suicide out of despair). The more likely reason is that she is so distraught that she just wants to die and be over with it  and she 's just thinking of ending her life and nothing else.


IMO, Bottom line is that it is plausible that a woman in that situation would want to die immediately. So the scene works - not just cinematically, but totally realistically as well.

RE: #4, yes, that's what Frayling was saying, that there's an implication that the trauma of the suicide during the rape has rendered Indio impotent. I don't see the slightest bit of evidence to that. (Maybe there was some such implication in the  deleted scene of Indio's gang partying with whores?)


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: stanton on December 22, 2013, 12:39:36 PM
As there is no scene showing Indio's impotence it is a far fetched assumption.

For the rape scene, I still think from a realistic point of view it is very implausible, but at first FAFDM is like all Leone westerns not a realistic film, and then it is an artist's right to condense events, even if then there are implausible things or extreme coincidences.


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: Huey on January 18, 2014, 02:35:50 PM
Hey, Indio knew who his victim was and who her brother was. Mortimer was his nemesis. He had known his fate a long, long time.

A complete madman, but no idiot.


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 18, 2014, 05:21:26 PM
Hey, Indio knew who his victim was and who her brother was. Mortimer was his nemesis. He had known his fate a long, long time.

A complete madman, but no idiot.

I don't think Indio knew who Mortimer was until he said his name. When he sees Mortimer at Agua Caleinte, he knows he is a bounty killer, but he does not know it's the brother of the girl he raped; I think he only realizes it when Mortimer shouts, "This is Colonel Mortimer.... Douglas Mortimer.... does the name mean anything to you?"


Title: Re: The Squeaky Clean Rape Scene
Post by: Big Boss 1971 on March 03, 2014, 11:43:44 PM
Hell , Angela Maos character killed herself *before* the rape happened in Enter Dragon , die with honor etc ;)