Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => Once Upon A Time In America => Topic started by: aaronson on September 22, 2003, 06:02:49 AM



Title: Missing scenes
Post by: aaronson on September 22, 2003, 06:02:49 AM
At the end of the photo gallery from the bonus contained in disc 2, we can see a photography of Noodles in bed with Eve. Noodles with hair in a real mess, holding a gun and looking at the camera.
Eve seems afraid

Some thoughts:

  1)   The 50 minutes shot and cut by Sergio seem interesting. He only spoke about "some scenes between Noodles and Eve.." But that one is very puzzling: who menaces the couple in bed,  and why ? Is it a husband or a lover, a mistress, another gang ? May be the gangster who tried to burn the syndicalist? Remember he told to Max ", hey we meet again" or something like that.

When somebody shall show us these bloody missing scenes  ? Never or next century by The Sergio Leone Foundation ?

 2 Sergio definitively did'nt like people in bed . He suppressed all the scenes between Clint and women during the $ trilogy .
And in OUATIA he prefered to keep two rapes.
Modesty ?


Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: Jon on September 22, 2003, 11:03:21 AM
According to a book I have called Sergio Leone by Oreste de Fornari,the chief missing scenes are

1   The boys mug a black musician and take his trumpet
 
2   At the cemetery,Noodles talks to the owner,played by Louise Fletcher

3   Before he takes her to the restaurant,Noodles watches Deborah perform and than has a row with the chauffeur

4  After Deborah leaves on the train,Noodles meets Eve,who is a prostitute,in a bar.He pays money and takes her to bed but is so drunk he passes out

5   Later on he meets her again in the same place and they go to bed.This time he stays awake.The next morning,Max bursts in to the room,surprising them[this is the scene you mean]and asksNoodles to go to the seaside with him

6  An earlier conversation between Noodles and Carol where she says how Max was going mad

7 Old Noodles sees Deborah on the stage in Antony and Cleopatra

8  Old Jimmy Conway tries to convince Max to shoot himself,Max shouts at him

These scenes do exist but apparently have no sound as they were not dubbed.Supposedly Leone planned to get the cast to dub the scenes and put them back in the film but it didn't happen.


Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: aaronson on September 22, 2003, 01:46:55 PM
Great Jon,thanks a lot


Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: guy on March 15, 2004, 07:45:59 PM
jon you know your stuff!! i was hoping you'd miss something out so i could inform people but you haven't! oh well. the only thing i can add is that arnon milchan and the ladd company who paid for the distribution, own the rights to these scenes and as they are the people responsible for the butchering of the film, for you lot in america, he released the disastrous 147 minute version as he believed an amerucan audience woulod not put up with a fil of any longer length...how wrong he was. poor sergio, too see his last film tornup and the linear fashion of the film destroyed, in america where he wanted it to be a success the most, after all it is most relevant to you lot i suppose....altough as an english jew i  still have/feel a wonderful affiliation with it


Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: DJIMBO on March 16, 2004, 02:34:42 AM
guy, i probably should check this out first in frayling's book, but the feedback frayling gets from interviewees is that the finished product ended up merging into the traditional gangster film, with the italian capuanos and irish jimmy o'donnell dominating. The impression he seems to get is that the jewish background of the main characters was not highlighted enough.
Obviously there are exceptions to this: i.e. the early scenes around fat moe's diner, the childhood streets, the cemetery and i dont necessarily agree with frayling.
But I wondered what you, as a Jew, thought of this.


Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: guy on March 16, 2004, 06:50:43 PM
hi djimbo. the only thing i can say is that in my opion they shoud have used more jewish actors to give the film a certain auhenticity regarding the look of the rest of the crew. by this i mean max and cockeye. however, james woods plays his part so well that i cannot really say him being involved is a negative thing. furthermore the use of yiddish terminology is there for all to hear, so sergio did not nelect this important aspect of the film. i would like to have seen the edited scenes replaced at some point, as i'm sure we all would. sergio was quoted as saying he saw no difference between jews and italians so thats his reasoning for picking a load of italians. after all they are acting so i can see his point....however there are so few jewish gangster films it would have been nice to see some bigger noses on screen!! lol. overall i am happy with the amount of jewishness the film portrays. maybe a tinge more would make me feel completley satisfied though. i believe a scene of noodles home life would aid the film greatlly. there was one edited which jon did not mention that i recall reading of....just looked it up and i quote, "in the 20's section, the scene in which noodles arrives home and reads in the toilet is preceded by a scene with his family- a father, a mother and a kid brother all absent from the finished film. noodles enters enraged shouting at his mother for food, finding only a cockroach - covered , empty bowl onthe dining room table.noodles hurls himself accusingly at his younger brother, and then realises it is his father who has stolenhis meal.  noodles father has evidently withdrawn from the material world of money; he fasts and prays obsessivley. as the light in the apartment flickers out(there is no quarter for the metre) noodles goes to the toilet with his copy of martin eden, arguing with his downtrodden mother ' i ain't gonna end up like him!'" i believe had this scene been included it would have added much to the film. for you see in the book the hoods, this is included, then later on in life noodles discovers his father was a hood also, so he realises his father was repenting for his sins. how ironic!! this is the only complaint i have and it is not aimed at sergio but the ladd company or whoeverr decided to destroy leones masteroiece. pleae let someone,or us, as i'd love to be involved in restoring the film to its full 9 hours and turn it into the best trilogy ever. let me know your  thoughts on my response and what you think of what  ihave told you.


Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: Jon on March 17, 2004, 11:36:50 AM
well,I've been absent from this forum for a while,but I share your dream of having the missing footage restored,the missing scene you mention [which I forgot about]would especially have been good,as I sometimes feel I would like to have seen more of Noodles' background.I must admit the gangsters do not always come across as especially Jewish,but I suppose gangsters are similar whatever culture they are from.

Apparently Leone did toy with the idea of releasing the film in two parts,like Bertolucci's 1900,but changed his mind[or was made to....].I';m not sure the film would work as two seperate films because of the complex flashback structure.

However,I share your dream of seeing the cut scenes put back,even of they have no sound,although maybe they could recall the actors back to dub the dialogue,like they did with GBU.At the very least, the Warners DVD could have included the scenes seperately.


Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: guy on March 18, 2004, 12:10:43 PM
you are right jon...it probably would not work as a trillogy or as two seperate films. when you talk about adding the missing scenes you refer to GBU, forgive me if i'm missing someting very obvious here but what is GBU? it seems to me that the people at warner may have possibly thought about this seeing as it was a special edition dvd, i reckon they may have run into trouble over this matter with the ladd company. i recently saw on a website that the ladd company are selling stills of the ouatia missing scenes for a hundred quid or bucks, can't remember which denomination. so i'm starting to think they are never going to release the scenes or the rights without someone paying them a fortune..what a shame.


Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: Jon on March 18, 2004, 02:33:45 PM
GBU-The Good,The Bad and The Ugly! Well,I find it easier to abbreviate sometimes!

Interesting what you say about the Ladd Company selling those stills for 100-it seems thay don't seem to really give a damn about us film fans and are content just to make as much money as they can.

All we can hope for is that when the film is eventaully re-released on DVD in the future[itvwill probably happen as loads of films come out on DVD in different and better editions],that Warners or whoever rereleases the film will have enough money  to pat the Ladd Company the money they asked for-after all, the current DVD has done very well commercially.


Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: guy on March 18, 2004, 04:02:16 PM
i have not watched any of the other leone films. i intend to remedy this. thats why i did not pickup on gbu. out of intrest where have you seen figures for the sales of ouatia? what is the figure? i'm glad to hear the sales figures are high, hopeffully this will convince someone to get ladd company to do the right thing as you say!

going back to noodles missing scenes i believe it would have aided the characters likeability after all having a hero commit a rape does not aid him.but with this scene there would have been a greater insight to his character. do you think we should approach someone like de niro, who must hold a lot of repectability within the industry, and ask him ever so nicely to help all us lovers of the film to regain the rights, or at least have our feelings known to the ladd company and the rest of the cinema world!



Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: DJIMBO on March 19, 2004, 04:53:19 PM
i could be opening a huge can of worms here, but you really need to see leone's films before once upon a time in america!!! the development in leone's style from his sword-and-sandal, to the dollars trilogy, to once upon a time in the west and then once upon a time in america is extremely visible. Tho i love 'America', 'West' is in my opinion a superior film...the best western it is possible to make. and u dont really have to be a western fan to love his spaghetti westerns.


Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: guy on March 19, 2004, 07:12:33 PM
well i'm not sure if one can say that, although i understand why you have djimbo. its just worked out that way, that i have only seen ouatia. the reason being that i very much like the gangster genre and through my love for these particular films it led me to ouatia. which in my opinion is more like a grown up fairy tale, as sergio says, and a film about friendship, love and betrayal, with the gangster elemnet being more of an underlying tone. but now i have i will be watching the other leone films. my younger brother is an avid fan of the other films and has lent me all of them, so i will be watching them, starting tonight.
 
i do enjoy westerns, have watched butch cassidy and sundance kid. also seen the western with clint where he is a sherriff of a town and all the people refused to help him whilst he was trying to fend off some bandits who were robbing and looting the town. they whiped him very badly and the towns people believe himm to be dead. he come s back incognito and triccks the towns folk into painting town red and thinking this will help them. really he is getting his rrevenge! i really enjoyed this but cant remember the name of the picture.


Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: KERMIT on March 20, 2004, 03:22:34 AM
i could be opening a huge can of worms here, but you really need to see leone's films before once upon a time in america!!! the development in leone's style from his sword-and-sandal, to the dollars trilogy, to once upon a time in the west and then once upon a time in america is extremely visible. Tho i love 'America', 'West' is in my opinion a superior film...the best western it is possible to make. and u dont really have to be a western fan to love his spaghetti westerns.
excelent DJIMBO.  it's like entering a leone film at the cinima half way through. thanks for putting this observation into words.


Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: DJIMBO on March 20, 2004, 04:54:46 AM
i think the film ur thinking of is high plains drifter. very good film and very much clint's interpretation of a spaghetti western. incidentally, its very similar to Django the Bastard, another spaghetti western.


Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: guy on March 20, 2004, 08:37:43 AM
excelent DJIMBO.  it's like entering a leone film at the cinima half way through. thanks for putting this observation into words.

maybe from an artistic point of view, however we are talking of technical matters of pre or post production for this specific topic, I think I am allowed to shed some light on the querie of djimbo and jon.  do you think that you are in a better position to discuss ouatia because you have watched leones previous films? get over yourself mate. each film is a seperate story, altough i understand there would be a continuity to watching them all in chronological order. however this does not mean one is unable to disect and review ouatia with less knowledge. how can i help having watched ouatia first? its hardly a hanging offence. you must have very little happening in your life if something like that gets you upset. all djimbo was saying, i think, is he recommends that i watch the other leone films, to see the development in his directoral style. point taken. however i dont appreciate someone like you, a person who clearly believes himself to be a "better" fan of leone than others, dropping in snide remarks.  ;D


Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: General Sibley on March 20, 2004, 01:12:36 PM
Relax Monsieur Orl.  Kermit's point is very well taken.  U R fokusing on the yiddish Gangstar thang so this obviously has personal rezzonance 4 U.  But if you could open your mind just slightly you might realize that Leone's entire oeuvre led up to this film.  As Galileo said, he wouldn't have been able to see so far if he hadn't stood upon the shoulders of giants, and in this case Leone couldn't have created OATIA without his prior body of work behind him.  Yes, this is great film on its own but it has even greater depths when viewed with his previous body of work in mind.  The film is the culmination of Leone's myth of America - coming through the west to the modern age.  It's like watching Kieslowski's Red without viewing the other parts of the entire Blue/White/Red trilogy.   It picks up where OUATITW left off.


Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: cigar joe on March 20, 2004, 09:12:26 PM
Guy, relax, we are all fans of Leone, some of us have approched him from different paths, your particular track is through the gangster genre and it will be interesting to get your take on various gangster films.

I too, enjoy the earlier B&W gangster films and perhaps we can make a list of recomended films.

I don't believe Kermit meant to seem snide in his remark.


Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: guy on March 20, 2004, 10:04:02 PM
Relax Monsieur Orl.  Kermit's point is very well taken.  U R fokusing on the yiddish Gangstar thang so this obviously has personal rezzonance 4 U.  But if you could open your mind just slightly you might realize that Leone's entire oeuvre led up to this film.  As Galileo said, he wouldn't have been able to see so far if he hadn't stood upon the shoulders of giants, and in this case Leone couldn't have created OATIA without his prior body of work behind him.  Yes, this is great film on its own but it has even greater depths when viewed with his previous body of work in mind.  The film is the culmination of Leone's myth of America - coming through the west to the modern age.  It's like watching Kieslowski's Red without viewing the other parts of the entire Blue/White/Red trilogy.   It picks up where OUATITW left off.

i'm sory to say general but what a load of crap. and i will not relax when some jumped up observer of ouatia thinks he has the right to tell me that to be able to comment on ouatia i need to have watched all previous leone films. i have clearly explained why this was the first leone film i was led to. also i do not need to open my mind "slightly?" as it is already open and willing to suggestion, as proved by my response to to djimbo, which is perfectly calm and respectful. you know why? because djimbo had the courtesy to speak in a polite and respectful manner, unlike kermit, who just belittled me in his response, just as you have done. you may be 55 and be over eloquent in your response, and by quoting galileo think you are intelligent. well to you i say you are a verbose stentorphone! look it up in your thesaurus if you don't know what it means. i will prove you to be ignorant. firstly i have made it clear that we( djimbo, jon and i) are referring to a point of pre/post production, not the artistic side of the film. secondly, i am by no means focusing on the "yiddish gangtsar thang", as you like to put, i believe belittleing me further. are you jealous that a jew has an opinion on the film made about jews, or perhaps that djimbo was interested in what a jew thought before consulting you, a person with so little self belief or respect that he must refer to himself as "general", and how the hell do you know that leone could not have created ouatia without his prior body of work in mind? are you his medium? do you speak to him on a regualr basis from beyond the grave? admitedly it may be the culmination of his myth of america. but if you were able to ask sergio himself what his logic was behind creating ouatia, i think  you'd find out that it was his love for the book the hoods. of course it'd have greater depth  when viewed with his previous work in mind, however do you really believe he made it in mind believing that every viewer had watched all of his previous films?! to you i say grow up and get realistic; don't let your afffection for his other productions blind your objectiveness. you like kermit must have little happening in your life if my point of view riles you so much, maybe you are friends, or lovers!! ha ha, lol!! do you know what really annoys? it'ss stuckup people such as yourself. why can't a person enjoy the film for what it is and not have to wonder the meaning behind each scene or minute of the film. film is not made by directors with a view to appease geeks/nerds, they are made to ponder upon and to review. as i have said many times, leone wanted this film to be ambigous all the way through. who are you to decide that your logic behind the film is the correct logic. enjoy the film for what it is and try not to become and obsessive, maybe this is too late. its late now in england  and i really hope i have not missed anyhing out in response to your pathetic post. as i'm sure you'll be picking up on whatever it is that i may have forgotten to mention.

and in response to cigar joe: after reading genral sibleys response do you think he is belittleing? i'm glad you too enjoy b&w gangster genre and can appreciate my fondness. however i appreciate the generals and kermits appreciation for leone westerns without being a fan myself, you do not find me being hostile, until the mesages i have recieved. you are so right that we all are fans of leone in one form or the other. and being younger it astounds me that people of a more advanced age try and make  me feel smaller trough longer vocab and  unfounded arguements. i'd like vey much to make a list of gangster flicks; and i'd be very happy to recieve a list of spaghetti westerns from the general sibley and kermit. forgive my responding hostility, its just aggravating when people make you feel less able to put ones views down because of the way one has discovered sergio leones films. seem very self absorbed and as i said previously, they may feel superior. sorry to all if i come across as being silly. i would not talk in this manner to anyone as kermit and cigar joe have, goodnight from the uk.

p.s cigar joe, i respect your opinions and hope that you continue to respect mine. i'm not ahostile person in general, i just feel very aggrieved that anyone would pick this topic to have a go at me over.......


Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: DJIMBO on March 21, 2004, 03:58:02 AM
i think uve slightly misinterpreted what i wos trying 2 say
guy, i wasnt trying 2 suggest u hav any less right to comment on once upon a time in america!!! i wos just saying that it really does make u appreciate leone wen u see all his other films as well - cos theres a lovely progression (with exception of fistful of dynamite). Don't get me wrong - i wasnt dismissing your judgement. Far from it. if anything u hav a unique perspective because you can relate it to ur jewish background.  :-\


Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: DJIMBO on March 21, 2004, 04:03:06 AM
i dont think anyone was trying 2 be snide i think they were just trying 2 relate to it from their own experiences of wctching leone. chill guy. no-ones trying 2 hav a go at u.


Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: General Sibley on March 21, 2004, 04:06:57 AM
i'm sory to say general but what a load of crap. and i will not relax when some jumped up observer of ouatia thinks he has the right to tell me that to be able to comment on ouatia i need to have watched all previous leone films. i have clearly explained why this was the first leone film i was led to. also i do not need to open my mind "slightly?" as it is already open and willing to suggestion, as proved by my response to to djimbo, which is perfectly calm and respectful. you know why? because djimbo had the courtesy to speak in a polite and respectful manner, unlike kermit, who just belittled me in his response, just as you have done. you may be 55 and be over eloquent in your response, and by quoting galileo think you are intelligent. well to you i say you are a verbose stentorphone! look it up in your thesaurus if you don't know what it means. i will prove you to be ignorant. firstly i have made it clear that we( djimbo, jon and i) are referring to a point of pre/post production, not the artistic side of the film. secondly, i am by no means focusing on the "yiddish gangtsar thang", as you like to put, i believe belittleing me further. are you jealous that a jew has an opinion on the film made about jews, or perhaps that djimbo was interested in what a jew thought before consulting you, a person with so little self belief or respect that he must refer to himself as "general", and how the hell do you know that leone could not have created ouatia without his prior body of work in mind? are you his medium? do you speak to him on a regualr basis from beyond the grave? admitedly it may be the culmination of his myth of america. but if you were able to ask sergio himself what his logic was behind creating ouatia, i think  you'd fi....AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON


 ??? Misplaced our medicines have we?




Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: cigar joe on March 21, 2004, 06:33:50 AM
Wowahhh!  We don't need gang warfare breaking out here. The only medication we all could use is some bootleg gin.  ;D

Getting a little bit out of hand now and starting off on the wrong foot. This topic is under OUTIA not a general discusion and it ican be approached as a stand alone film.

We should all agree that we disagree and get on to some serious discussion of the gangster genre. 8)


Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: guy on March 21, 2004, 07:44:07 AM
??? Misplaced our medicines have we?




very funny! its a shame that you could not take the time to write something appropriate -  maybe i've hit a nerve, or maybe you feel a bit silly after reading what i've written in response while defending myself, surely you must have more to say? a quick jibe hardly warrants a reply from me. but seeing as you have not saaid anything, i'll take it to be that you agree with me. which is fine because now we can get back to discussing the film........ :)

oh yeah thabks to djimo for claryfying the name of that clint film and the reccomendation of the other spaghetti western, keep em coming. cheers.


Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: Jon on March 21, 2004, 11:18:04 AM
I don't think it matters what order you see films in, after all we are all bound to see Leone's films more than once and in different orders.The first Leone film I saw was The Good The Bad and The Ugly,followed by A Fistful Of Dynamite,followed by once Upon A Time In America.Once Upon A Time In The West was the last one i got to see.I suppose it may have been instructive to see his films in order,but I [and others of us]will probably watch them all in order at some point anyway.

Guy,chill out mate,I don't think the others were trying to be insulting!


Title: Re:Missing scenes
Post by: DJIMBO on March 21, 2004, 01:59:15 PM
i hope thats the end of that