Sergio Leone Web Board
Films of Sergio Leone => Duck, You Sucker => Topic started by: Tucumcari Bound on June 25, 2007, 10:45:37 AM
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"Duck, You Sucker"
"A Fistfull of Dynamite"
"Once Upon a Time...The Revolution"
When you refer to this film. Which one of these titles do you say? It's funny that one movie would have so many titles to it's name. All three titles are cool none the less.
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Once upon a time... the Revolution signs its place good. But DYS is funnier. ;D
Fistful of Dynamite is terrible. Like a stupid action movie... >:(
When I speak about it, I use the italian title.
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When I speak about it in Czech, I use the title it went under in TV, Kapsy plné dynamitu, i.e. loose translation of Fistful of Dynamite. However, in English I definitelly use Duck You Sucker, because I love how that saying keeps coming in the film...
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Once upon a time... the Revolution signs its place good. But DYS is funnier. ;D
Fistful of Dynamite is terrible. Like a stupid action movie... >:(
When I speak about it, I use the italian title.
You make some valid, good points Jill. The title "Duck, You Sucker" is one of the most thrilling, creative movie titles ever in my opinion. When you hear this title, how can you not want to see it just for the title alone?!
Fistfull of Dynamite I'm not to crazy about because it sounds to much like it's part of the Dollar Saga. I don't hate it as much as you Jill, but I see what you're saying. It defintely gives you that feeling it's just an action movie when there's so much more to it.
Once Upon a Time...The Revolution would be the proper title for this picture in my opinion. It defintely would be between "Duck, You Sucker" and this. However, I have not decided which I like better as of yet. OUATTR gives it that EPIC feeling in my opinion.
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But how came the FOD title? Leone wanted DYS, not?
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But how came the FOD title? Leone wanted DYS, not?
I'm not exactly sure what Leone's final decision was for the title. I would have to look this up to find out. Maybe somebody here would know?
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I like Fistful of Dynamite the best. I don't care if it makes some people think it's an action movie. If you've seen it, you'd know better. Duck, You Sucker I never really cared for. A bit too silly, though I did like the line when used in the movie thanks to Coburn's delivery. Once Upon a Time the Revolution I didn't like so much just because I never cared for "Once Upon a Time..." anything.
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Giu la testa ;)
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I like Fistful of Dynamite the best. I don't care if it makes some people think it's an action movie. If you've seen it, you'd know better. Duck, You Sucker I never really cared for. A bit too silly, though I did like the line when used in the movie thanks to Coburn's delivery. Once Upon a Time the Revolution I didn't like so much just because I never cared for "Once Upon a Time..." anything.
See I love the sound of "Once Upon a Time" because it gives you the sound of escapism, a fairy tale kind of story you want to get wrapped up in for 2 plus hours. It just sounds magical in my opinion.
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See I love the sound of "Once Upon a Time" because it gives you the sound of escapism, a fairy tale kind of story you want to get wrapped up in for 2 plus hours. It just sounds magical in my opinion.
Sure. The problem I have with this in connection with this film is the fact, that this film... well... it isn't a fairy tale. OUATITW has a bit of such feeling. This doesn't for me. More of a very sad and severe saga, maybe... well, then just have this title if you like it...
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I'm not exactly sure what Leone's final decision was for the title. I would have to look this up to find out. Maybe somebody here would know?
I think Frayling said something about Leone believing that this was a popular(!)
American saying.
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When speaking about it I refer to it as "Giu la Testa".
However if I have to use english I only refer to it as "Duck You Sucker".
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I too vote for Giu la testa. But if you want to refer to it in English, I suggest Giu la testa. >:D
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Weeks before DYS came to town, previews of it would show at the theater before features began. The deep voiced announcer guy would say real dramatically, "James Coburn and Rod Steiger will blow you apart in DUCK YOU SUCKER". Intermixed would be dynamite explosions, machine guns, dying soldiers, exploding trains, a weird looking stage coach, and Coburn whipping his coat open to reveal his arsenal. It was awesome to see. After all that, I made sure I didn't miss it when it came out.
Thats the title I was exposed to, and it wasn't until years later that I saw that it could go by other names. I didn't like that it had other possible names, but DYS was a little odd sounding at the time to say in front of people. I think that if I wanted a name change it would be to A Fistful of Dynamite. I know that some feel that that makes it sound like an action movie, but that is what it was presented as. We know. after viewing it, that the film is much more than that, its on another level. You couldn't show that on the previews though.
Once Upon a Time in the Revolution sounds good, but in the 60s, and early 70s all sorts of movies had the word Revolution somewhere in the title or as a comedic tag line. It might have been thought of as a comedy. So after saying all that, I guess I'll stick with DYS but be conciliatory if you want A Fistful of Dynamite.
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Weeks before DYS came to town, previews of it would show at the theater before features began. The deep voiced announcer guy would say real dramatically, "James Coburn and Rod Steiger will blow you apart in DUCK YOU SUCKER". Intermixed would be dynamite explosions, machine guns, dying soldiers, exploding trains, a weird looking stage coach, and Coburn whipping his coat open to reveal his arsenal. It was awesome to see. After all that, I made sure I didn't miss it when it came out.
Thats the title I was exposed to, and it wasn't until years later that I saw that it could go by other names. I didn't like that it had other possible names, but DYS was a little odd sounding at the time to say in front of people. I think that if I wanted a name change it would be to A Fistful of Dynamite. I know that some feel that that makes it sound like an action movie, but that is what it was presented as. We know. after viewing it, that the film is much more than that, its on another level. You couldn't show that on the previews though.
Once Upon a Time in the Revolution sounds good, but in the 60s, and early 70s all sorts of movies had the word Revolution somewhere in the title or as a comedic tag line. It might have been thought of as a comedy. So after saying all that, I guess I'll stick with DYS but be conciliatory if you want A Fistful of Dynamite.
Yeah, I think I'll go with "DUCK, YOU SUCKER". That title is to cool for words. I wish I had a T-shirt with the words, "Duck, You Sucker" on it.
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I also like Duck, You Sucker although it sounded weird at first but it's the title I've been accustomed to. The other two titles are also cool but not as cool as DYS.
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I also like Duck, You Sucker although it sounded weird at first but it's the title I've been accustomed to. The other two titles are also cool but not as cool as DYS.
Welcome to the Board VC2020! :)
Yes, Duck, You Sucker does sound a bit absurd when you first hear it, but it definitely grows on you. I love the title now!
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Thanks for the welcome. I came to this part of the board after reading your post in the 8-Disc DVD thread.
I think it also keeps growing on you. I keep saying "Duck, You Suckers!" in my head because I think it's great the way Juan says it as he frees the prisoners.
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Thanks for the welcome. I came to this part of the board after reading your post in the 8-Disc DVD thread.
I think it also keeps growing on you. I keep saying "Duck, You Suckers!" in my head because I think it's great the way Juan says it as he frees the prisoners.
Hey no problem my friend! I think you'll find that you will love it on this forum. Everyone's friendly, and obviously well rounded in their Sergio Leone info and just movies in general.
You are right about "Duck, You Sucker" growing on you. A few friends here have mentioned the same thing about this film and it's true. I've been watching it again tonight and it's even better the second time around. There is so much to take in and it's hard to notice it all the first time around.
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Here, on the forum, I use "Duck, You Sucker". When I speak about it in real life, I use "A Fistful of Dollars" 'cause that's what it's called on my DVD cover. On IMDb I use "DYS/FOD" just to make sure everyone understands what I mean. I never use "OUATTR", but I love how it links DYS to OUAT -films. Though, marmota has a good point on this, too.
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Once Upon a Time... The Revolution - Would probably be the best title for the film in English, although it is only the French version which carries this title
Duck You Sucker - This sounds very stupid, but it's the closest thing to the Italian title
A Fistful of Dynamite - From the start this was just a cash-in title. It also has a small (Duck You Sucker) beneath it, making it obviously a re-release title.
Some other titles for the film
Todesmelodie (Germany) - Literally translates to "Deathmelody" whatever that means.
Quando Explode a Vingança (Portugal) - Literally translates to "When the Revenge Blows Up": This has to be the most ridiculous title I've ever seen in my life!
I think it's best to stick with Duck You Sucker although I would have thought of a better title for the film myself.
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Giu' la testa is probably the first and real name. Leone probably referred to it with this name.
I do prefer: Il était une fois la Révolution.
BTW, I must say that the french version dubbing of Leone films is outstanding. I usually prefer the english/american versions of films when american actors are involved, but I can watch a Leone film in either. Nothing is lost in the translation.
On the other hand, a Woody Allen flick is in my opinion unwatchable in french. Th classic Casablanca is a disaster also.
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I use DYS here, but I use Fistful of Dynamite when talking about it with other people because DYS is such a silly title IMO.
I think a good English title can be "Hit the Ground." It sums up the message of the film and doesn't sound silly.
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Now that I think about it some more, I kind of love the "Once Upon a Time" title because it fits with the Once Upon a Time theme with 'West' and 'America' which Sergio intended it to do so. We have the 'Dollars' Trilogy and the 'Once Upon a Time' Triology. Both bloody brillant.
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"Duck, You Sucker" is the first and only (american) title for this film. Even though it may sound a bit strange, and possibly dirty, at first, it fits the dialog, and doesn't sound like a fourth Eastwood flick. The title interested me enough at 15 to see it, and I got my 75 cents worth of great landsvcapes, hero-types (cool and hot-tempered), and fun. A great Sundays's Leone film fest!
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According to Sergio Leone :
the first title was Once Upon A Time... The Revolution. This was the favorite title of Sergio leone. Then the producers told him that their was going to be confusions between his movie and anotehr one, by bertolucci (Prima Della Revolution i think but i'm not sure about it) and it became Duck, You Sucker (working title: Giu La testa, Coglione! sorry for the spelling i don't speak italian) . Then the movie failed in the US (remember Coburn saying "but the movie was released with Duck, You sucker" as a title so nobody came to see it), so it was released in the UK as Fistful Of Dynamite (a "very stupid title" according to Sergio), and i think they re-released it in the USA too, with the later title. i'm not too sure about the order of the releases in, the UK and the USA, I've heard contradictory versions. But i'm sure about the begining, the order of the titles and what sergio wanted.
To be clear:
1) Once Upon A Time... The Revolution : was the first title, the one that sergio prefered, and was released only in France
2) Giu La testa coglione : decided with the producers befor the shooting. Liked it since it also fits with the movie.
3) Giu La testa became the italian title ; Duck, You Sucker stayed the english title for the first releases.
4) Fistful of Dynamite : last known title, hated by leone.
You guys should really look for an eventual translation of Conversations avec Sergio Leone, by Noel Simsolo (Conversations with Sergio Leone). In this book lie most of the informations that we are looking for on this board.
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Giu la testa is definitely the best title. I honestly think all of the English language titles are atrocious, but I find "Fistful of Dynamite" to be the least obnoxious. "Duck You Sucker" sounds like a blaxploitation film; given the movie's serious pretensions, it's hard to take it seriously with a title like that. "Once Upon a Time in the Revolution" just rubs me the wrong way, dunno why.
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Giu la testa is definitely the best title. I honestly think all of the English language titles are atrocious, but I find "Fistful of Dynamite" to be the least obnoxious. "Duck You Sucker" sounds like a blaxploitation film; given the movie's serious pretensions, it's hard to take it seriously with a title like that. "Once Upon a Time in the Revolution" just rubs me the wrong way, dunno why.
Well, say "Once Upon a time... the revolution", and not "in the revolution", and it will rub you the good way :)
BTW, that's the one i prefer. But may be i'm biased, since it is the only title we know in France...
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Leone's preferred title for the English version of the film, according to Frayling, was Dock You Socker. ;D
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I just hate how the film goes around with three existing titles. To much confusion.
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Now that I think about it some more, I kind of love the "Once Upon a Time" title because it fits with the Once Upon a Time theme with 'West' and 'America' which Sergio intended it to do so. We have the 'Dollars' Trilogy and the 'Once Upon a Time' Triology. Both bloody brillant.
I was preparing to reply to this discusion, when I read your comment whit which I totaly agree. I mean that the main and only title should be "Once Upon a time...", expecially because of the "two trilogyes" - like you said, and like I think for quite some time. There is the "dollars" trilogy, that is most of all (among many other things) linked with lust for many and greed... Second trilogy, "once upon..." trilogy, have that too, but also have (among many other things), in much more way, some other themes (better say themes that directly shows "human flaws"). In OUATIW that is revenge, in DYS or OUATTR that is revolution and in OUATIA that is political power, coruption... Beside that I simply love the title "Once Upon a time..." more then others.
Well, say "Once Upon a time... the revolution", and not "in the revolution", and it will rub you the good way :)
BTW, that's the one i prefer. But may be i'm biased, since it is the only title we know in France...
When I watched this movie for the first time (some, allmost 20 years ago, on our national television) they announced it as: DYS - "our translation" of that title of course, but later on it was allways called "Once Upon a time there was the revolution" - litteraly translation from our language, and I must say that this title allways looked and sounded best to me. :)
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... Once Upon A Time... The Revolution : was the first title, the one that sergio prefered, and was released only in France...
Indeed. Interestingly note how the French "Il était une fois la révolution" parallels the Italian "C'era una volta la rivoluzione" much better than the awkward English "Once Upon a Time... the Revolution".
"Once Upon a Time in the West" and "Once Upon a Time in America" work well in English because of the word in. However only "C'era una volta in America" has the word in in the Italian name. Here are the literal translations of the French and Italian titles (note the addition of in in the French version of the first one however that parallels the English case):
Once Upon a Time in the West
C'era una volta il West: This was a time the West
Il était une fois dans l'Ouest: It was time in the West
Once Upon a Time... the Revolution
C'era una volta la rivoluzione: This was a time the revolution
Il était une fois la révolution: It was a time the revolution
Once Upon a Time in America
C'era una volta in America: This was a time in America
Il était une fois en Amérique: It was a time in America
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From http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=4180.msg134930#msg134930
Leone always intended the italian title to be "Giu La Testa"... Leone NEVER intended the title to be "Once Upon a time...the revolution!". This title was made and meant (by the French studios, distributers...whatever...) to capitalize on his previous success in France with OUATITW.
Actually Leone did want to call the film "C'era una volta la rivoluzione". This was his desired Italian title and it was only the French title that maintained it. Here are his comments in Simsolo p.149 following his discussion about the Mao citation at the beginning and the theme of revolution:
"And I had wanted to call the film 'Once upon a time... the revolution'. It was only in France that it was named in this way. In Italy the distributor said that it could be confused with Bertolucci's 'Prima della rivoluzione', filmed 5 years earlier! So I chose 'Giu la testa'..."
Ex post facto explanations are always to be looked on with suspicion, especially in Leone's case. Put another way: SL was always more trustworthy about his motives before events than after.
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Ex post facto explanations are always to be looked on with suspicion, especially in Leone's case. Put another way: SL was always more trustworthy about his motives before events than after.
I don't think such a cynical view of Leone is entirely warranted. In the Simsolo chapter, Leone talks about the revolutionary theme of the film and the Mao quote on the nature of revolution that he was upset had been removed in the retitled "Fistful of Dynamite" versions. Leone wanted this to be about the nature of revolution and he wanted the title to reflect this. Seeing as Leone already knew at this stage that he wanted to make "Once Upon a Time in America", it seems highly likely that he would have chosen this name because he realized he would have a second trilogy after his first three films had developed into a trilogy of their own.
I assume that the French name maintains Leone's original title, while the English one does not, because "Cera una volta la rivoluzione" translates rather awkwardly as "Once Upon a Time... the Revolution" (see my above post). Consequently, with the film already being retitled in Italy, why not retitle it in English accordingly? If the film had not been retitled in Italy, then this would have been a different matter.
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But what is remarkable about this movie is that all those titles fit the movie very well. Usually with foreign movies the story goes downhill with each new title being invented for a different market, but here we basically got one good after another.
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So what title best fits this film? - I'm not 100% sure, but I'd go with Giù la testa. It's a subjective choice anyway.
But, A Fistful of Dynamite, C'era una volta la rivoluzione/Once Upon a Time... the Revolution, Duck, You Sucker, those are all pretty darn good titles.
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I won't say anything about the Italian titles (no idea which one would fit), but I'll say that I would rank the titles like this:
1. Duck, You Sucker. I think it best fits the semi-comic nature of the film, and, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the title Leone advocated? If I were a producer handling this film, I would not interfere with the director's vision, especially when it's a director who had already proved twice (in The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly and Once Upon a Time in the West) that he knew how to make truly awe-inspiring films. I myself would not have chosen this title if I were Leone, but I rank this first because I am definitely not Leone, and this is what he chose, so this is what I go with.
2. Once Upon a Time... the Revolution. This is probably my favorite title just because it ties it to his other late works, although I still see this as flawed: why not Once Upon a Time in the Revolution? It would make it fit so much better with Once Upon a Time in America, and Once Upon a Time in the West.
3. A Fistful of Dynamite. Frankly it might sound cooler than either (I guess), but it just doesn't fit the film. Duck, You Sucker is not about an archetypal, gunslinging anti-hero (although this movie does use archetypes and anti-heroes, to a lesser extent), it's more about two lost souls trying to make it out alive in a politically charged war.
I'm due to rewatch this one sometime, as my memory of it is foggy.
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I used to be hostile towards Duck, You Sucker! as a title but I've gotten over it.
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I used to be hostile towards Duck, You Sucker! as a title but I've gotten over it.
It's the same thing here in essence: after watching The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly for the first time, I checked through his filmography, and when I saw this I thought "Huh. Duck, You Sucker. What a dumb name for a film."
But I got over my attempt to ignore the title.
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1. Duck, You Sucker. I think it best fits the semi-comic nature of the film, and, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the title Leone advocated?
You stand corrected (at least in Leone's, albeit later, stated opinion)
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You stand corrected (at least in Leone's, albeit later, stated opinion)
So Leone later advocated another title? Pardon me if I sound naive to some of you.
Edit: don't answer me. I took the liberty of reading the rest of the discussion, but thanks for alerting me.
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Interesting. But I'm still waiting for any shred of evidence that existed before the film was released that SL wanted the Once Upon a Time title for the film. Like a copy of the shooting script with that title, or production logs with that title, or correspondence referring to the film by that title. Anything like that. Anything at all.
Still waiting.
While just about every reference book (even the English language ones like Frayling, Cox etc) cites 'C'era una volta la rivoluzione' as the original title after a treatment called 'Mexico' had been acquired, this does not of course mean that they are all correct. Maybe they all copy from each other; maybe they all use the same set of interviews.
Here are a couple of shreds for you from an interview with Vincenzoni:
1. "... we started to chat about 'Once Upon a Time, the Revolution'. From the first moment it wasn't going to work - with Peter Bogdanovich directing and Sergio Leone producing."
2. "... it is the opening of 'Giu la testa', when Steiger pees over the colony of ants on the tree"
In the former, he is referring to the script; in the latter he is referring to the final film. Now the question prompting the latter specifically uses the name 'Giu la testa' which may explain the discontinuity in terminology, but not the use of 'Once Upon a Time, the Revolution' in the former.
Also, I prefer to give Leone the benefit of the doubt in what he says and treat him as innocent of lying until proven guilty; the onus is on the prosecutor to find the evidence...
still waiting... ;)
If Bogdanovich is to be believed, Leone was insisting on Duck, You Sucker as a title even before filming started, and interviews with Leone recounted in STDWD back up his assertions. Perhaps after the fact he wanted to link his last three films as a loose trilogy but that didn't seem on his mind at the time.
This refers to the discussion over the translation of 'Giu la testa' as 'Duck, You Sucker' and has nothing to do with the original title.
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Just another thought: Why would Leone want to claim to have suggested the title "C'era una volta la rivoluzione" in any case?
While "Duck, You Sucker" sounds rather strange in English, the Italian "Giù la testa" is absolutely fine and there would be no reason to distance himself from that at a later date even if he did later accept his English version of the name to be poor. Furthermore, Leone has no problem that "Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo" does not have a name that connects it to the later treatment of this as the third part of the "Trilogia del dollaro", so why would he care that "Giù la testa" doesn't contain "C'era una volta..." if it hadn't been his original intention to name it in that way?
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I would prefer OuTtR as title, but think mostly of it as Giu la testa.
But even with the OuT title I never viewed it as part of a trilogy. It does not fit with the other too.
And DYS and AFoD are simply too stupid sounding imo. German title (Death Melody / Todesmelodie) is also forgettable.
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Duck You Sucker because it's fun to say. But it's a terrible title.
It should be called: Sean...Sean, Sean
lol
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Also, I prefer to give Leone the benefit of the doubt in what he says and treat him as innocent of lying until proven guilty; the onus is on the prosecutor to find the evidence...
I don't see it as lying. There is telling the truth, lying (deliberate falsehoods), and the thing that people do 90% of the time they discourse, saying what is untrue without deliberation. Film directors, especially good film directors, are particularly vulnerable on this last point. They like telling a good story, and they know how to improve a story with re-tellings. This is something I noticed while reading tons of Hitchcock interviews: unless the question put to him was highly technical, AH could never give a straight answer. And even in the case of technical questions Hitch was stingy about giving his collaborators credit. He wasn't lying in those interviews, but his representations of past events were less than the whole truth.
SL liked telling stories too. There are plenty of examples where we have reason to be skeptical of how he remembers things. I'll just point to one that has resurfaced here on the thread "Santi Busts a Myth." According to Frayling, SL maintained that Santi was director on DYS for 10 days. We now know, with Santi's more reliable testimony (more reliable, because Santi was the one most directly affected) that this is Totally Untrue. I don't say SL was lying, though, just misremembering, and no doubt because at one point he envisioned Santi as the director. In the case of the Once Upon a Time... title idea, also, we have an example, I suspect, of SL misremembering. I could be wrong. But until something shows up in writing, in a document produced prior to filming, I will continue to be skeptical.
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I'll just point to one that has resurfaced here on the thread "Santi Busts a Myth." According to Frayling, SL maintained that Santi was director on DYS for 10 days. We now know, with Santi's more reliable testimony (more reliable, because Santi was the one most directly affected) that this is Totally Untrue.
Well Frayling actually quotes Donati right underneath who puts it closer to one day; I was more interested that Santi didn't even realise he was supposed to be the director at all! The thing is that Donati arrived on the set later, or more specifically before Coburn and Steiger were engaged but after the equipment had already arrived in Spain and some initial shooting had already begun. Leone is not misremembering, he is just presenting the facts in a different way according to his interpretation of them.
I don't say SL was lying, though, just misremembering, and no doubt because at one point he envisioned Santi as the director. In the case of the Once Upon a Time... title idea, also, we have an example, I suspect, of SL misremembering. I could be wrong. But until something shows up in writing, in a document produced prior to filming, I will continue to be skeptical.
As for "Once Upon a time... the Revolution", there is no other person involved here with whom Leone could miscommunicate or have a misunderstanding. Maybe he is simply misremembering and misleading himself, but I am certainly not one to judge without evidence. I also think it is notable that Vincenzoni refers to it early on with the "Once Upon a Time..." title. Until any solid counter-evidence comes forth, it seems unfair to doubt Leone's sincerity.
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Perhaps this should be "the film with no name" as none of the titles are raelly satisfactory?
(Personaly I prefer Giù la testa)
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I was just watching an excellent French documentary "When the Western Made its Revolution" on the French DVD of "O'Cangaceiro". Interestingly, one of the commentators said that Leone's original "Once Upon a Time..." title was not allowed in Italy due to the Italian Communist party kicking up a fuss about it! I had never heard that as the reason before.
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(Personaly I prefer Giù la testa)
You would.
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I was just watching an excellent French documentary "When the Western Made its Revolution" on the French DVD of "O'Cangaceiro". Interestingly, one of the commentators said that Leone's original "Once Upon a Time..." title was not allowed in Italy due to the Italian Communist party kicking up a fuss about it! I had never heard that as the reason before.
I dunno, to me that sounds like another example of documentaries not doing all their homework.
Leone and all his collaborators have stated before in past interviews, etc. that the producers didn't allow the "Once Upon a Time.." title simply because they reasoned that the public would confuse it with Bertolucci's "Before the Revolution."
To me, that seems the most likely reason.
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I strongly believe that"Once Upon A Time.. the Revolution" is the best title. That fits the essence of what Leone tried to convey in his other "Once Upon a Time" movies, ie. the justaposition of a fairy tale ("once upon a time") with a real concept (eg. America, the West, or the Mexican Revolution). eg. as how many real stories are sort of fairy tales, in that how they exist in someone's mind is not how they really were, and how people's dream of them is different from reality.
For example, people romanticize the West, or America, or the Mexican Revolution, but much of it is a fairy tale, hence "once upon a time."
The title "Duck, You Sucker" (Leone erroneously believed that to be an American phrase, no matter how much the American actors tried convincing him otherwise) also conveys one of the themes of the film, ie. Leone's disillusionment with revolution, and possibly something of a counter to the many movies that were released at the time that glorified the Mexican Revolution. Leone did not believe in the ideals of revolution as did many of the big Leftists at the time. That is why he put that quote from Mao at the beginning: to show how while some people may glorify revolutions, there is in fact nothing glorious about them. it is interesting to note that Sergio Donati, who was indeed a big leftist, did not like the film, or Leone's use of Mao's quote; I guess he would have preferred that leone had made another Viva Villa!
Leone believed in staying out of things ("ducking," or "keeping your head down," as "Giu La Testa") and focusing on your own life and family. So the title "Duck, You Sucker" while not nearly as good as "Once Upon a Time... the Revolution," also conveys a theme of the film.
Fistful of Dynamite is a terrible title and conveys none of the themes of the film. After "Duck, You Sucker" did not do well in theaters in America Leone merely repackaged the film as "Fistful of Dynamite" to try to capitalize on the success of his earlier films.
It is interesting, as Christopher Frayling notes, that the countries where the film did best were those which used the title "Once Upon a Time... The Revolution." (I believe it was France and possibly some others)
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It is interesting, as Christopher Frayling notes, that the countries where the film did best were those which used the title "Once Upon a Time... The Revolution." (I believe it was France and possibly some others)
Let's not forget, though, that the OUATITW had also been a huge hit in France. This, I think, is a successful instance of a studio cashing in on a previous film's title (as the US/UK tried to do with the Fistful of Dynamite moniker). OUATITW did little-to-no business in America, so I doubt the Once Upon a Time... title for DYS would have made much difference.
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Let's not forget, though, that the OUATITW had also been a huge hit in France. This, I think, is a successful instance of a studio cashing in on a previous film's title (as the US/UK tried to do with the Fistful of Dynamite moniker). OUATITW did little-to-no business in America, so I doubt the Once Upon a Time... title for DYS would have made much difference.
that may well be so; though of course, trying to cash in on previous success with catchy titles didn't work for Leone when he repackaged DYS in America as "Fistful of Dynamite"!
btw, the only thing I dislike about DYS is the title! It is a terrific film. And the main musical theme is just incredible; Edda's voice makes you wanna cry!
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that may well be so; though of course, trying to cash in on previous success with catchy titles didn't work for Leone when he repackaged DYS in America as "Fistful of Dynamite"!
I think the scope of these 2 movies (FO$/FODynamite) are too different for that strategy to work. Not to forget that 1971 is pretty far from 1964.
OUATITW was such an amazing success in France, the Once Upon A Time title strategy could not fail. Same with OUATIA, which did good, but not "as good as a Leone film".
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And the main musical theme is just incredible; Edda's voice makes you wanna cry!
Yes. As much as I love OUATITW, this theme is my favourite.
I think the scope of these 2 movies (FO$/FODynamite) are too different for that strategy to work. Not to forget that 1971 is pretty far from 1964.
I think that's it. People who flat out love FOD might be a bit confused by DYS.
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Let's not forget, though, that the OUATITW had also been a huge hit in France. This, I think, is a successful instance of a studio cashing in on a previous film's title (as the US/UK tried to do with the Fistful of Dynamite moniker). OUATITW did little-to-no business in America, so I doubt the Once Upon a Time... title for DYS would have made much difference.
I was just checking the references in Frayling. It seems that Leone first made the comment on record about his original title "Once upon a Time, the Revolution" not being allowed due to Bertolucci's "Before the Revolution" in an article published in 1973.
The film was released in France in 1972, so this interview wouldn't have occurred too long afterwards. Consequently, while he still might have been making this story up on the basis of the French release, this would have happened very quickly after the original release in any case.
To me the situation seems very similar to the Dollars Trilogy. Leone only named the 'sequel' "For a Few Dollars More" to irritate Jolly film; with GBU, it then emerged as a loose trilogy. The "Once Upon a Time..." trilogy is similarly a loose trilogy (with one of the three films again not having the trilogy's name in the title), but this certainly makes it no less of a trilogy.
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Should have been
Once Upon A Time
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Should have been "Once Upon a Time in the Revolution".
The English title of OUATITW was able to add in when the original Italian didn't have it (as did the French title for OUATITW, but notably not for DYS), so I don't see why it shouldn't be added here. Since the name was never used outside of Italian, the decision was probably never made, but it's certainly better than "Once Upon a Time... the Revolution" or "Once Upon a Time, the Revolution" which are both awkward.
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Should have been "Once Upon a Time in the Revolution".
The English title of OUATITW was able to add in when the original Italian didn't have it (as did the French title for OUATITW, but notably not for DYS), so I don't see why it shouldn't be added here. Since the name was never used outside of Italian, the decision was probably never made, but it's certainly better than "Once Upon a Time... the Revolution" or "Once Upon a Time, the Revolution" which are both awkward.
I have to disagree with you here: IMO, "OUAT in the Revolution" would sound very weird; "OUAT... The Revolution" is a great title.
The theme of the film is how revolutions may initially seem great and romantic, but ultimately just cause death and destruction. The focus is not on the Mexican Revolution per se, nor on a specific incident or story that occurred in the film; rather it is on the whole concept of revolution itself, which Leone was taking a stand against ( my understanding is that Leone was opposing the film industry in Italy at the time which was dominated by pro-revolutionary hardcore Leftists). Leone's "Once upon a time" titles in general connote the combination/juxtaposition of fantasy and reality; in the context of this film, it refers to how revolutionaries may view revolutions as all wonderful and romantic -- like a fairy tale ("once upon a time") -- but they are ultimately just violent and tragic.
"OUAT in the Revolution" seems to me to imply a reference to a specific incident that happened during the revolution, which IMO does not properly convey the theme of the movie, which is a reference to revolutions in general.
You may counter this by noting that OUATITW and OUATIA both use the word "in." The title and theme of both of those films also refer to a fairy tale involving a real place/time (ie. the Wild West and America, respectively, from Leone's foreign perspective). But since both of those titles refer to a specific place (the West and America), it makes sense to use the word "in." However, "the revolution" is more of a concept/idea and not a specific place; hence, the word "in" sounds very awkward. IMO "Once Upon a Time... the Revolution" is a terrific title.
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I have to disagree with you here: IMO, "OUAT in the Revolution" would sound very weird; "OUAT... The Revolution" is a great title.
The theme of the film is how revolutions may initially seem great and romantic, but ultimately just cause death and destruction. The focus is not on the Mexican Revolution per se, nor on a specific incident or story that occurred in the film; rather it is on the whole concept of revolution itself, which Leone was taking a stand against ( my understanding is that Leone was opposing the film industry in Italy at the time which was dominated by pro-revolutionary hardcore Leftists). Leone's "Once upon a time" titles in general connote the combination/juxtaposition of fantasy and reality; in the context of this film, it refers to how revolutionaries may view revolutions as all wonderful and romantic -- like a fairy tale ("once upon a time") -- but they are ultimately just violent and tragic.
"OUAT in the Revolution" seems to me to imply a reference to a specific incident that happened during the revolution, which IMO does not properly convey the theme of the movie, which is a reference to revolutions in general.
You may counter this by noting that OUATITW and OUATIA both use the word "in." The title and theme of both of those films also refer to a fairy tale involving a real place/time (ie. the Wild West and America, respectively, from Leone's foreign perspective). But since both of those titles refer to a specific place (the West and America), it makes sense to use the word "in." However, "the revolution" is more of a concept/idea and not a specific place; hence, the word "in" sounds very awkward. IMO "Once Upon a Time... the Revolution" is a terrific title.
But the original title is in fact Once upon a Time the West, and not "in the West" like it was slightly changed for the English title.
You also have to note that Leone used the English word West (C'era una volta il West, not C'era una volta il ovest). And that he wrote west with a capital letter. This all clearly refers to a mythical west.
For me DYS is a too different film to really deserve the Once upon a time title. And I still see much sense in making it part of a trilogy, even if it is a loose one. My Name Is Nobody is much closer to OuTW than DYS.
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But the original title is in fact Once upon a Time the West, and not "in the West" like it was slightly changed for the English title.
You also have to note that Leone used the English word West (C'era una volta il West, not C'era una volta il ovest). And that he wrote west with a capital letter. This all clearly refers to a mythical west.
For me DYS is a too different film to really deserve the Once upon a time title. And I still see much sense in making it part of a trilogy, even if it is a loose one. My Name Is Nobody is much closer to OuTW than DYS.
I am only discussing the English version; that's all I understand. It may well be that something else makes sense in Italian or French; but in English, "OUATin the Revolution" wouldn't sound right IMO. "OUAT... The Revolution" is a great title
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Seeing as the original script was simply titled "Mexico", it should have "Once Upon a Time in Mexico", although that now refers to a completely different movie of course.
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Seeing as the original script was simply titled "Mexico", it should have "Once Upon a Time in Mexico", although that now refers to a completely different movie of course.
Leone wasn't interested in the literal place; he was interested the idea and mythology. There is that with the "West" "the Revolution," or "America." What's the mythology of Mexico?
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But the original title is in fact Once upon a Time the West, and not "in the West" like it was slightly changed for the English title.
You also have to note that Leone used the English word West (C'era una volta il West, not C'era una volta il ovest). And that he wrote west with a capital letter. This all clearly refers to a mythical west.
For me DYS is a too different film to really deserve the Once upon a time title. And I still see much sense in making it part of a trilogy, even if it is a loose one. My Name Is Nobody is much closer to OuTW than DYS.
OUATITW is to the American Western what MNIN is to the Spaghetti Western (and to the spoofs on the Spaghetti Western)... so yeah, MNIN definitely could have had some sort of "Once Upon a Time" title. However, I am sure Leone did not want that; enough people confused this for a Leone film without the OUAT title!
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"OUAT in the Revolution" seems to me to imply a reference to a specific incident that happened during the revolution, which IMO does not properly convey the theme of the movie, which is a reference to revolutions in general.
Well it goes without saying that "C'era una volta la rivoluzione" is the best title. It's just a shame that it doesn't translate in English. Most literally, it is "This was a time the revolution" although the French "Il était une fois la révolution" is more literally "It was a time the revolution", but neither work in English nor capture the right sentiment without using "Once upon a time..."
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For me DYS is a too different film to really deserve the Once upon a time title. And I still see much sense in making it part of a trilogy, even if it is a loose one. My Name Is Nobody is much closer to OuTW than DYS.
You really think so ???
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Yes, I don't see much connection between DYS and the 2 OuT films. I always thought that it was very constructed and forced to press DYS as middle part of a triology. And remember it was also a film Leone did not wanted to direct initially.
The re-use of the title works for OuTA, but not for DYS.
And I think that DYS lacks the brilliance of the 4 predecessors, while MNIN has this brilliance, and even if it is a flawed film in parts, it is a much better film than DYS. That doesn't mean that DYS is a bad film. It shows how much Leone has developed his style since FoD, but also the film still shows why Leone did not wanted to direct it himself.
DYS was an underrated film, but now it becomes an overrated film.
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OUATITW is to the American Western what MNIN is to the Spaghetti Western (and to the spoofs on the Spaghetti Western)... so yeah, MNIN definitely could have had some sort of "Once Upon a Time" title. However, I am sure Leone did not want that; enough people confused this for a Leone film without the OUAT title!
As it is for me a Leone film anyway the confusion is only the other way round.
What is OuTW to the American western?
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As it is for me a Leone film anyway the confusion is only the other way round.
What is OuTW to the American western?
OUATITW is a homage to the myth of the American Western; I believe the "goodbye to the OLd West" theme was actually just a metaphor for the true theme, which is Leone's comment/homage to all the American Westerns (and its mythology) that he loved
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Leone wasn't interested in the literal place; he was interested the idea and mythology. There is that with the "West" "the Revolution," or "America." What's the mythology of Mexico?
What does the Revolution in DYS have to do with America?
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What does the Revolution in DYS have to do with America?
nothing. "OUAT... the Revolution" has nothing to do with America.... it was the idealism of the "Revolution" that Leone was arguing against
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Arguing against, or For? It seems both sides are seen: The "improvement" to the peons, and the same peons tiring of fighting. Like, Juan's deserved rant in the cave: "The whole thing starts all over again". This is brought out in the Young Indiana Jones chronicles, too.
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nothing. "OUAT... the Revolution" has nothing to do with America.... it was the idealism of the "Revolution" that Leone was arguing against
Then how does it fit into this alleged "trilogy"?
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Here's what I posted earlier on a different thread if it's worth anything:
Actually, I'd always viewed the trilogy as Leone's broad yet localized take on the development of America: the Wild West of the late 19th century; the Mexican revolution of the early 20th century; the second wave of immigrants in the first half of the 20th century.
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Yes, I don't see much connection between DYS and the 2 OuT films. I always thought that it was very constructed and forced to press DYS as middle part of a triology. And remember it was also a film Leone did not wanted to direct initially.
The re-use of the title works for OuTA, but not for DYS.
And I think that DYS lacks the brilliance of the 4 predecessors, while MNIN has this brilliance, and even if it is a flawed film in parts, it is a much better film than DYS. That doesn't mean that DYS is a bad film. It shows how much Leone has developed his style since FoD, but also the film still shows why Leone did not wanted to direct it himself.
DYS was an underrated film, but now it becomes an overrated film.
Wow, I'd put DYS far ahead of MNIN and consider it a very worthy second installment to the OUAT trilogy. Each to his own I guess...
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When I first saw DYS I was disappointed, but since then it has grown on me, but it was then, and it is now still the least of Leone's westerns for me.
I also think that Il mercenario is much better, and even if Companeros is a film with lots of flaws, and in several parts clearly inferior to DYS, I prefer it to DYS for the sheer brillance of some of its scenes.
Compared to the other better known Zapatas is DYS on par with Quien sabe? and much better than Tepepa. And I prefer it to all Sollima films.
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Well Il mercenario & especially Companero's are lighter fare compared to DYS, Companero's is almost a comedy with a lot of flaws.
I'l Mercenario is probably my favorite Zapata if I define them as an action adventure films. I'd say that Quien sabe?, Tepepa, and DYS are all more cerebral with DYS the pinnacle of that trend.
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Il mercenario is not really a light film.
It is a pretty ambiguous film filled with extraordinary ideas. And it is more complex about its content (the revolution) than it seems at first glance. It works as an impudent actioner as well as a pessimistic and cynical comment on certain leftist ideals. In il mercenario the revolution is always overthrown by the money and in the closing structure of the false endings it changes from optimistic to pessimistic, but still can maintain on the western level of the film an unlikely happy end.
So Il mercenario can be a counterpart to The Great Silence without betraying the ending of The Great Silence, and for thus being a complement to it. Tricky stuff these 2 films.
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Then how does it fit into this alleged "trilogy"?
it's not a real "trilogy"; nor are the Dollars films, really.
it's 3 films, each with the OUAT title, which some people therefore refer to as a "trilogy." Of course, it is not a real trilogy.
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Just noticed this at the very end of the "Photo" #54 (1972) article here (http://monnomestpersonne1973.blogspot.com.br/search/label/Il%20%C3%A9tait%20une%20fois%20la%20R%C3%A9volution) about DYS (my translation):
"Last bummer, the film that comes out just before his on the same circuit has been called 'Il était une fois un flic' by its director Georges Lautner. It's undoubtedly for economic concerns, affirms Leone, they will only have to change the last part of the sign".
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Interesting also how in the 1970 article below the above one (Ciné Revue, N° 53, December 1970), the Italian title of "Giù la testa!" is simply translated in French as "Attention à la tête!" (Watch your head!).
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I think the OUATTR title is brilliant but that the DYS title probably fits the film's cynical quirky humor better. I use DYS when referring to the film.
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When I speak about it in Czech, I use the title it went under in TV, Kapsy plné dynamitu, i.e. loose translation of Fistful of Dynamite. However, in English I definitelly use Duck You Sucker, because I love how that saying keeps coming in the film...
Apparently, it's also called "Hlavu dolů" in Czech, "(put your) Head down!" - and now I'm not sure which title to use at all. My mind somehow calls it "DYS", I mean that abbreviation, nothing else... ;D
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I hate the name "Duck, You Sucker" but that IS the film's proper name in English, even if it was based on Leone's erroneous belief that that was a popular American saying. Nobody I know has ever heard anyone say that phrase.
I really wish it had been called Once Upon a Time... the Revolution. I like to think of Leone as making the Dollars trilogy and the Once Upon a time trilogy :)
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I agree with the previous poster, I would have gone for 'Once Upon a Time... the Revolution' as part of the second trilogy. I quite like 'A Fistful of Dynamite' though, very punchy. 'Duck, You Suck' is just a bit lame, but I don't mind it when Coburn says it in the film.
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Just use the French title, guys.
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Good call ;D
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I think Hlavu dolů sounds handsome too for future worldwide releases.
... and does the film maybe some justice.
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What's really weird is that in Japan three of Leone's films had names that tied them all together, but these three films crossed over the "Dollars" and "Once Upon a Time" trilogies by consisting of the following:
夕陽のガンマン (literally "Sunset Gunman" aka "For a Few Dollars More")
続 夕陽のガンマン (literally "Sunset Gunman sequel" aka "The Good the Bad and the Ugly")
夕陽のギャングたち (literally "Sunset Gang" aka "Duck, you Sucker!")
"Sunset" (夕陽) wasn't used in the names for "A Fistful of Dollars" or "Once Upon a Time in the West".
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What's really weird is that in Japan three of Leone's films had names that tied them all together, but these three films crossed over the "Dollars" and "Once Upon a Time" trilogies by consisting of the following:
夕陽のガンマン (literally "Sunset Gunman" aka "For a Few Dollars More")
続 夕陽のガンマン (literally "Sunset Gunman sequel" aka "The Good the Bad and the Ugly")
夕陽のギャングたち (literally "Sunset Gang" aka "Duck, you Sucker!")
"Sunset" (夕陽) wasn't used in the names for "A Fistful of Dollars" or "Once Upon a Time in the West".
Nice. Do you have the other titles in Japanese?
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荒野の用心棒 (literally "Wilderness Yojimbo" aka "A Fistful of Dollars")
ウエスタン (literally "Uesutan" as a phonetic spelling of "Western" aka "Once Upon a Time in the West")
ワンス・アポン・ア・タイム・イン・アメリカ (literally "Wansu apon a taimu in amerika" phonetic spelling of "Once Upon a Time in America")
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I remember Frayling once saying that he had a copy of the Japanese poster of FOD, and some Jap told him that the title in Japanese means something like "the return of yojimbo" or " yojimbo rides again" or something like that?
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I remember that too. It was on one of the DVD/BD special features. I also remember thinking how wrong he was!
Breaking the Japanese name down:
荒野 = wasteland; wilderness; deserted land; prairie; vast plain; wilds; desert; wild land;
の = grammatical particle making the word above a descriptor of the word below.
用心棒 = Yojimbo
To be honest, I'm not sure what the best translation of the first word would be. Perhaps "wilderness" sounds too much like trees and forests and "plains" would be better.
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I usually dislike using the Italian but in this case GIU, LA TESTA is the one i have settled on.
it just seems right esp. with the numerous other titles from Euro nations
Bruce Marshall
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It pisses me off that when Juan or John say "duck, you sucker: in the French version it is changed or removed completely!! >:(
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In Frayling's SL bio he re- titles it KEEP YOUR HEAD DOWN!!!!
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In Frayling's SL bio he re- titles it KEEP YOUR HEAD DOWN!!!!
I believe he titles the chapter on that movie “Keep Your Head Down,” (translation of the Italian title “Giu La Testa” but he never says that any version of the movie in any English-language country had that title.
He titles all the other chapters with the name of the movie in English, and my assumption is that the reason he uses the translation of the Italian for the title of this chapter is that he, rightfully, thinks that both “Dock You Socker” and Fistful of Dynaminte” are ridiculous.
In Italian, “Giu La Testa” is a saying, so this is not a bad title.
In English, I agree with Frayling, the best title is absolutely “Once Upon a Time ... the Revolution.” As Frayling describes, the “once upon a time” is Leone’s “fairy tale for grownups,” and how the fairy tale may be quite different from the reality.
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In English, I agree with Frayling, the best title is absolutely “Once Upon a Time ... the Revolution.” As Frayling describes, the “once upon a time” is Leone’s “fairy tale for grownups,” and how the fairy tale may be quite different from the reality.
Frayling should have used that for his title - given that we have evidence of Leone explicitly stating during the French dubbing of DYS that he was making OUATIA as the third part of what he had decided was going to become a trilogy.
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Of course the French one is the right one.
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Of course the French one is the right one.
8)