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Films of Sergio Leone => Once Upon A Time In The West => Topic started by: Jill on September 19, 2007, 11:15:54 AM



Title: I think Frank wasn't pure evil...
Post by: Jill on September 19, 2007, 11:15:54 AM
He is a cold-blooded killer, of course.  O0 And a sadistic SOB.

But he didn't killed Jill, when he could have done it. Why? I don't think only because she was good in the bed. Frank had met hundreds of women, and he's not a greenhorn.
He even said he could marry Jill and then the money will be his. And she would be "a perfect wife", but he knows it's impossible because he would be a bad husband.
I think he too has a dream for a better life, but he knows he killed too many people and he could nevermore live as a normal citizen. Not because the law - he hadn't problems with lawmen - because his soul. He isn't able to live like others. But he dreams about it. Just for one moment, he imagines it - a beautiful wife, nice children, and no more killing. Even men like him can be tired.
But then came his Fate, also Harmonica... and we know what happened.


Title: Re: I think Frank wasn't pure evil...
Post by: tucumcari bound on September 19, 2007, 12:46:35 PM
I disagree with you Jill. Frank was arguably the most sadistic, cold blooded villains you will ever see. He killed a little boy in cold blood for god sakes, after killing his family no less. He didn't care about anybody but himself. If it was to help him in some way, he'd commit murder in getting it. He didn't kill Jill because he thought he could use her in business which back fired at the auction. Just watch him as Jill walks up to take a bath. Look at those blue eyes looking at her. You think he's thinking nice things about her? No, he's thinking he should have killed her when he had the chance.

There is no good in Frank. Don't be fooled by Mr. Fonda's charm and looks Jill. The character he played was down right rotten. There was no good in him whatsoever.

I just think you have an obsession with villains Jill and sit around trying to find the good in them. That's a nice thing to do, but you wouldn't want to be around these characters, especially if you have something they want. You can just kiss your ass goodbye if that was the case. ;)


Title: Re: I think Frank wasn't pure evil...
Post by: Cusser on September 19, 2007, 01:23:05 PM
Yeah, just think of little Timmy's freckles gettin' blown off in Almeria !!!


Title: Re: I think Frank wasn't pure evil...
Post by: tucumcari bound on September 19, 2007, 01:30:17 PM
Yeah, just think of little Timmy's freckles gettin' blown off in Almeria !!!

Yup. Anybody sick enough to blow a little boy away like that is pretty damn evil.


Title: Re: I think Frank wasn't pure evil...
Post by: Tuco the ugly on September 19, 2007, 01:57:00 PM
Good one Jillie-girl! 

Timmy-boy asked me to tell you that he's fine, a little cold, but he's got Frank's bullets to keep him warm. In case you're worried.


Title: Re: I think Frank wasn't pure evil...
Post by: tucumcari bound on September 19, 2007, 03:05:18 PM
Good one Jillie-girl! 

Timmy-boy asked me to tell you that he's fine, a little cold, but he's got Frank's bullets to keep him warm. In case you're worried.

 ;D


Title: Re: I think Frank wasn't pure evil...
Post by: dave jenkins on September 19, 2007, 04:57:16 PM
Frank isn't originally from our planet. He's a soulless android placed on Earth to perpetuate an Eternal West so that humankind can never advance technologically enough to challenge the monoliths in orbit around Jupiter. Human children mean nothing to him, they're just bags of fluid you have to step on when they get in your way. Only a man who has risen from the dead can oppose him.....


Title: Re: I think Frank wasn't pure evil...
Post by: Groggy on September 20, 2007, 07:05:00 AM
So, is Frank a terminator? :o


Title: Re: I think Frank wasn't pure evil...
Post by: moviesceleton on September 20, 2007, 08:21:51 AM
So, is Frank a terminator? :o
Yep. His model is F-1000.


Title: Re: I think Frank wasn't pure evil...
Post by: Jill on September 20, 2007, 10:02:27 AM
Terminator Frank, lol...

I don't said he's good. Of course he's a son of a bitch. But he's man... the ancient race... and not as mean as Morton. That worm.
At least he isn't a coward.

I'm not so obsessed with villains, and Frank is not as sexy as Indio.  ;D ;D ;D
He's really veeery bad.


Title: Re: I think Frank wasn't pure evil...
Post by: tucumcari bound on September 20, 2007, 10:15:52 AM
Terminator Frank, lol...

I don't said he's good. Of course he's a son of a bitch. But he's man... the ancient race... and not as mean as Morton. That worm.
At least he isn't a coward.

I'm not so obsessed with villains, and Frank is not as sexy as Indio.  ;D ;D ;D
He's really veeery bad.

 ;D

No Jill, Frank is a coward. He is a worm, even more than Morton. Morton didn't order for Frank to perform that massacre. He was even pissed and yelled at Frank for it, if you remember. Morton was a businessman, not a killer. He feared Frank and that's why he paid off his guy to try and get him out of the picture.



Title: Re: I think Frank wasn't pure evil...
Post by: Tuco the ugly on September 20, 2007, 11:47:41 AM
 ;D


Title: Re: I think Frank wasn't pure evil...
Post by: Groggy on September 20, 2007, 12:08:30 PM
Frank was evil, yes he was. His only redeeming value is a sense of honor and chivalry which leads to the final duel.

Morton was a coward because he gave Frank too long of a leash and then complained when he did stuff that displeased him. Morton disapproved of Frank's methods, but had let him get away with such things in the past and doesn't really punish Frank for the massacre (he only turns on Frank when the latter finally defies him in the open). Morton's a sympathetic character but he's deserving of responsibility for the massacre as much as Frank is. "I didn't order you to do that!" isn't an acceptable defense.


Title: Re: I think Frank wasn't pure evil...
Post by: tucumcari bound on September 20, 2007, 12:34:42 PM
Frank was evil, yes he was. His only redeeming value is a sense of honor and chivalry which leads to the final duel.

Morton was a coward because he gave Frank too long of a leash and then complained when he did stuff that displeased him. Morton disapproved of Frank's methods, but had let him get away with such things in the past and doesn't really punish Frank for the massacre (he only turns on Frank when the latter finally defies him in the open). Morton's a sympathetic character but he's deserving of responsibility for the massacre as much as Frank is. "I didn't order you to do that!" isn't an acceptable defense.

Good points Groggy. I wasn't really defending Morton. He's a slime ball just as much as Frank, but for different reason's. I really believe Frank is evil.


Title: Re: I think Frank wasn't pure evil...
Post by: Jill on September 20, 2007, 01:55:50 PM
Well, I can feel some pity for Morton, especially when he dies. He was not so evil, but weak. And hire Frank's men to shot him in the back isn't a nice thing.

Frank at least had the honor to go into the final duel. He knew how to die like a man. Morton died like a worm. (And he killed my poor Cheyenne.  :'()


Title: Re: I think Frank wasn't pure evil...
Post by: Groggy on September 20, 2007, 02:08:39 PM
Well, Morton is an interesting character, however, he's ultimately a bad guy because he hired Frank at somewhere along the line. His mistake is finally catching up with him now that he's losing power, and Frank is becoming more engrossed in his business.

I tried to work out backstory to the story for fun. Frank, Morton and McBain all met each other during the Civil War serving in various capacities, Morton as a railroad officer, Frank as a Jayhawker/Border Ruffian in Kansas, McBain somewhere in there. Would be interesting to work on. . . but I'm kind of busy fighting the Apache.


Title: Re: I think Frank wasn't pure evil...
Post by: tucumcari bound on September 20, 2007, 02:32:57 PM
Well, Morton is an interesting character, however, he's ultimately a bad guy because he hired Frank at somewhere along the line. His mistake is finally catching up with him now that he's losing power, and Frank is becoming more engrossed in his business.

I tried to work out backstory to the story for fun. Frank, Morton and McBain all met each other during the Civil War serving in various capacities, Morton as a railroad officer, Frank as a Jayhawker/Border Ruffian in Kansas, McBain somewhere in there. Would be interesting to work on. . . but I'm kind of busy fighting the Apache.

That be an interesting timeline to create. I look forward to that Groggy.


Title: Re: I think Frank wasn't pure evil...
Post by: moviesceleton on September 20, 2007, 03:22:47 PM
Well, I can feel some pity for Morton, especially when he dies. He was not so evil, but weak. And hire Frank's men to shot him in the back isn't a nice thing.

Frank at least had the honor to go into the final duel. He knew how to die like a man. Morton died like a worm. (And he killed my poor Cheyenne.  :'()

They both died laying in dust ::)


Title: Re: I think Frank wasn't pure evil...
Post by: tucumcari bound on September 21, 2007, 11:53:13 AM
Jill, Morton didn't have any choice as to where he died. It's not his fault he was down in the mud.  ;)


Title: Re: I think Frank wasn't pure evil...
Post by: Jill on September 22, 2007, 04:51:27 AM
Well, Morton made some mistakes. He wanted to kill Frank. If he could wait, Harmonica would have done it and he were free. Second mistake: he shooted Cheyenne. Of course Cheyenne or hisd men get a little angry...  ;D

What the hell were Cheyenne's men doing on the train?


Title: Re: I think Frank wasn't pure evil...
Post by: tucumcari bound on September 22, 2007, 08:29:23 AM
Well, Morton made some mistakes. He wanted to kill Frank. If he could wait, Harmonica would have done it and he were free. Second mistake: he shooted Cheyenne. Of course Cheyenne or hisd men get a little angry...  ;D

What the hell were Cheyenne's men doing on the train?

Well the Cheyenne, Cheyenne's men, and the Morton train encounter are a bit of a mystery which is pretty damn cool on Leone's part not showing us.


Title: Re: I think Frank wasn't pure evil...
Post by: Usaviator on July 26, 2017, 10:44:12 AM
I think it's easy to feel some sympathy for Morton.  Yeah, of course he made a mistake by hiring frank, and that kind of throws him in the category of a "bad guy" in this story, and on top of that, he was very driven by wherever his riches led him.  But his intention was to scare the family off the land, definitely a mean-hearted thing, but not sadistic. 

I think I could agree with the idea that there could have been a glimmer of thought in Frank's mind that he could settle down and live a normal life, but I think it was just that, a glimmer.  Maybe Frank can dream about being a normal person, and you could expand on that and say you see good in him, but as far as the rest of the story goes, it doesn't reflect any reality or action for him.

To get a little more philosophical, on top of that, I think you could also say there's a little evil in everyone as well.  Some find it easy to see the good in the evil ones, others find it easy to see the evil in the good ones.  Every man's basic instinct is to defend himself and his loved ones, no matter what the cost.  Revenge doesn't make someone good. It is just dishing out the same evil that you were served.  I bet you could have even handed little Timmy a gun and he woulda blown Franks brains out, had he the chance to.  Now then you serve death for death, and each man killed to serve his own desire.  So I think there is inherently evil in us all as well.