Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => Once Upon A Time In America => Topic started by: dave jenkins on December 27, 2007, 03:38:50 PM



Title: Visual Motifs (Doors, Mirrors, Timepieces)
Post by: dave jenkins on December 27, 2007, 03:38:50 PM
The first of many thresholds to cross: the journey begins.
(http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/905/cap789if1.png)
The door closes . . .
(http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/7599/cap794kr2.png)
. . . dissolves . . .
(http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/7499/cap795nv2.png)
(http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/5017/cap796gv9.png)
. . . revealing other doors.
(http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/6703/cap797ri8.png)
The plane that was a door is now a pane of glass: doors reveal.

Noodles has his pick of doors:
(http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/6665/cap800dm7.png)
(http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/1424/cap803ze4.png)
(http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/5127/cap806gw3.png)
Sometimes there is even a friend to hold one open.

Some doors offer passage into the past:
(http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/5940/cap807ox8.png)

Young Noodles was big on doors also.
(http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/8863/cap824ee0.png)
(http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/6513/cap825py4.png)
Deborah will later bar this door to Noodles, portending ill for their relationship.

(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/9938/cap826vy2.png)
Doors not only reveal, they conceal. Dead time is locked away, out of view.

Mr. Williams also encounters doors.
(http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/2706/cap811wo9.png)
(http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/6665/cap812tu4.png)
Another door, another window.

For Noodles, doors mean many things. Temptation:
(http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/8540/cap815eh4.png)
A barrier to be surmounted:
(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7961/cap816or9.png)
A path not taken:
(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/8308/cap817qm5.png)
A fatal choice:
(http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/9642/cap818se6.png)
The quest for knowledge:
(http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7094/cap819zi6.png)
An easy evasion:
(http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/2096/cap820jy0.png)
(http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/4162/cap821xv0.png)

In the end is his beginning:
(http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/6353/cap822ug7.png)
(http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/7951/cap823ly0.png)
. . . Noodles entering/ re-entering/ re-re-entering the opium den.


Title: Re: Door Motif
Post by: Noodles_SlowStir on December 28, 2007, 06:57:36 PM
 O0   Nice.  Showing it pictorially really hits home.

I’m glad you made this thread.  It’s been discussed more than a few times on various threads but now there’s a place to reference..... and maybe add new observations when watching the film over. 

We’ve talked about doors with OUATITW as well.  How that is most likely a reference to Ford and The Searchers.  Sergio also uses mirrors in OUATITW. When Jill looks in the mirror when she’s alone in the evening after the burial.  She seems to be reflecting on what could of been, her loss and what she will do next.  Do you think it was just a matter of Sergio seeing an opportunity with OUATIA with the various themes of the film to use these things again with more depth and meaning?  We’ve talked about how, in particularly the last three films, he takes his themes of friendship and betrayal further in each subsequent film.  Seems he does the same with these images. 

I got to thinking about Duck, You Sucker as the film in between.  There are doors as well.  The door and doors inside the bank that Juan anxiously tries to open came to mind.  The door of the pub in the flashback scenes.  There’s the mirror in the pub into which Sean looks, reflecting upon himself and also watching the door for the arrival of Nolan and the police.  The other thing in DYS is the gaze through the slats of boards behind the poster and in the freight car which frame the screen like a wide screen film perspective.

Doors, windows, mirrors all can potentially provide different perspectives and be related to vision.  Vision and the image of something is always in the mind of a director.  Sergio seems to have this "vision" theme running through the films as well. 

Quote
Mr. Williams also encounters doors.

But he has the situation in hand.  :)


Title: Re: Door Motif
Post by: Tuco the ugly on December 28, 2007, 07:27:53 PM
If I can make just one observation, about all those doors in Sergio's movies - I've noticed that most of those doors get closed if they've been opened. A pedant little Leone touch that I've always appreciated.


Title: Re: Door Motif
Post by: dave jenkins on December 28, 2007, 08:19:00 PM
We’ve talked about doors with OUATITW as well.  How that is most likely a reference to Ford and The Searchers.  Sergio also uses mirrors in OUATITW. When Jill looks in the mirror when she’s alone in the evening after the burial.  She seems to be reflecting on what could of been, her loss and what she will do next.  Do you think it was just a matter of Sergio seeing an opportunity with OUATIA with the various themes of the film to use these things again with more depth and meaning?  We’ve talked about how, in particularly the last three films, he takes his themes of friendship and betrayal further in each subsequent film.  Seems he does the same with these images. 
I'm going to think on this some more, but my immediate thought is, yes, OUATIA gave SL the opportunity to invest his usual motifs with, as you say, more depth and meaning than before. Another motif in OUATIA is timepieces, principally the watch Max beats Noodle out of when they first meet (and which is still with Max years later at their final interview), and the grandfather clock at Fat Moe's (which apparently stops working for 35 years until Noodles returns with the key). The significance of these timekeeping instruments is obvious in a film about time and memory. That doesn't mean (necessarily) that the watch in FAFDM operates the same way: motifs can change their significance across an artist's oeuvre.

I'm not quite sure if the doors in OUATITW have much to do with those in OUATIA or not. More to think about. Also, I haven't given any of the motifs in DYS much thought at all yet, but I will do so now, prompted by your comments. As to the mirrors in OUATITW: was the pun intentional when you spoke of Jill "reflecting" ? Either way, it's a great insight; I wonder if SL was in on the gag?


Title: Re: Door Motif
Post by: dave jenkins on December 28, 2007, 08:24:39 PM
If I can make just one observation, about all those doors in Sergio's movies - I've noticed that most of those doors get closed if they've been opened. A pedant little Leone touch that I've always appreciated.
Excellent observation. O0 I wonder if there is any deep significance. Perhaps it is just a function of SL's obsessive tidiness. It makes for a nice contrast to the kind of filmmaking that has a camera follow a character over a threshold, but then doesn't allow the character to close the door because the camera is following.


Title: Re: Door Motif
Post by: dave jenkins on December 29, 2007, 03:41:36 AM
One way to show characters crossing a threshold with a camera following:

Thatcher Library Door (from Citizen Kane)

(http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/851/cap833tc8.png)
The door, highlighted, draws our eyes.
(http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/548/cap834um1.png)
We are not surprised to see characters approach and open it.
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/5157/cap835pp9.png)
The room within is temporarily revealed.
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/503/cap838gl4.png)
A character, quite naturally, then closes the door.
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/8633/cap839qm2.png)
Our view is obscured, yet the camera moves ever closer.
(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2301/cap840yt6.png)
It would seem there is nowhere now for the camera to go . . .
(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/5834/cap841vw3.png)
. . . but the door begins to dissolve.
(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2203/cap842xs4.png)
The camera pushes through the dissolving door into the room.
(http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/8572/cap843zu7.png)
The interior is re-revealed; shifted positions mark the passage of time. Characters have not surrendered their motivations, yet the camera still gets the shot.


Title: Re: Door Motif
Post by: Noodles_SlowStir on March 14, 2008, 04:33:40 PM
I was watching some scenes over.  Came upon the scene in Florida with Max and Noodles.  They learn about the repeal of Prohibition in the headlines.  Max takes the opportunity to talk about his “dream”.  The film has so many great transition scenes.  Sometimes it’s easy to overlook some of them.  The threatening Federal Reserve Doors never get to be opened as "planned", but they become the center of another great transition cut in which the doors that represent a supposed “dream” are almost like a projection screen..... that take the viewer from Florida back to New York.  Perhaps a visualization that provides another link between dreams and cinema in the film.


(http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/7148/frbzp6.gif)


Title: Re: Door Motif
Post by: dave jenkins on March 14, 2008, 11:38:35 PM
That's very interesting, a dissolve that also appears like a double wipe (and, as you suggest, the curtains pulling open to reveal a "projected" image). It puts me in mind of some of the transitions in MNIN.


Title: Re: Visual Motifs (Doors, Mirrors, Timepieces)
Post by: dave jenkins on January 17, 2012, 11:38:38 PM
This was a thread about the Door Motif in OUATIA, but I've re-purposed it to include all visual motifs. (Have at it, D&D).


Title: Re: Visual Motifs (Doors, Mirrors, Timepieces)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 18, 2012, 02:16:35 AM
                                               MIRRORS

There are at least 5 times in OUATIA where I can recall the scene involving mirrors (if I'm missing any, please add 'em!)

A) in one of the most memorable scenes in the film,young Noodles looks in a mirror as he is escaping New York; then we are immediately introduced to old Noodles 35 years later, looking into the same mirror

B) As the gang (in its first scene as children) walk in the crowded streets of the Lower East Side, they pause to look into a mirror on the street.

C) When Noodles returns to Fat Moe's after having been gone for a while  --(dating and raping Deborah, "seeing her off" at the train station, spending time "by the Chinks" mourning her," -- he looks into a mirror as he walks into the back room.

D)  Noodles's meeting with "old" Deborah takes place entirely in front of a completely mirrored wall

E) Bailey's study has a couple of small mirrors on the wall



What's the significance of all this?

B occurs just after Deborah says, "Just look at yourself, David Aaronson!" So the theme has something to do with people "seeing themselves"; I remember someone once said that at the end, when Secretary Bailey looks out the window at his young son, he is "looking at himself," as a youngster.

In C, Noodles only very briefly glances in the mirror as he is walking by -- he doesn't even stop, he just slows down as he is walking to briefly look into the mirror as he fixes his hair. Perhaps, since Noodles has just been spurned by and raped Deborah, he feels like a total piece of shit and doesn't want to "look at himself."
(btw, since this mirror is in the speakeasy, it appears in the speakeasy scenes as well, but I do not mention that separately here cuz i) it's the same mirror; and b) more importantly, I don't recall it serving much of a function in the speakeasy scenes; we don't see any individuals looking into it; we only see it in the background of long shots, with a bunch of people dancing).

Also, as we've discussed at length, the character of Noodles is very much based on Leone's meetings with Harry Grey -- a man who who was basically had mixed reality with fantasy (ie. leone believed that much of The Hoods was subconsciously copied from crime movies), and a man tryig to make sense of his past, etc. Perhaps this can be part of a man "looking at himself," ie. sizing up his life, time gone by, a life wasted, etc. (as old Noodles tells Bailey just before exiting his study, "it would be a shame to see a lifetime of work go to waste).

The mirror in D  is significantly bigger than in the other times; in fact, it seems to dominate the picture (there is also another large mirror across the room from the main one, so this shot is surrounded by mirrors). Is this because now, after all this time of anguish, regret, reflection, etc. and then finally returning and coming to terms with what his life has been all about, things are starting to finally become clear to Noodles -- the huge presence of mirrors meaning that he is finally able to "look" and see things clearly for the first time? (When he finally tells his story to Bailey, he says, "Just the way I see things)."

In E, there are a couple of normal-sized mirrors that would be on the wall of a study, and we don't really see the mirror image of either of them as they are looking into the mirror. We see each of them in separate long shots as they are standing in front of the mirror, but not actually looking into it.

How do we interpret this: Especially after the huge mirrors in D , when everything becomes clear, why do they revert to being small (and nobody looking into them) in E? Perhaps it is because in this scene, there really isn't much "looking" going on, ie. Noodles refuses to even acknowledge Max, referring to him as "Mr. Bailey" or "Mr. Secretary," so there is still some sort of "voluntary blindness" going on in this scene? (UPDATE: I discuss E a bit more extensively in Reply #13  :) )




Title: Re: Visual Motifs (Doors, Mirrors, Timepieces)
Post by: dave jenkins on January 18, 2012, 05:59:54 AM
This is interesting. You may want to cross reference these examples with those in OUATITW. Do you see any similarities between the way Leone uses mirrors in the two films?


Title: Re: Visual Motifs (Doors, Mirrors, Timepieces)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 18, 2012, 01:46:42 PM
This is interesting. You may want to cross reference these examples with those in OUATITW. Do you see any similarities between the way Leone uses mirrors in the two films?

I only recall one shot of Jill looking into a mirror. Which other mirrors are there?


Title: Re: Visual Motifs (Doors, Mirrors, Timepieces)
Post by: MatViola on January 18, 2012, 07:10:18 PM
Noodles isn't the only one who peers into mirrors throughout the film. When we first see Deborah, dancing among the “empties and the broom sticks,” she takes a long, admiring look into a mirror, which points to the little prima donna’s conceit and narcissism. In 1933 she looks at herself in a compact mirror just before her reunion with Noodles at Moe’s speakeasy. And she spends virtually the entire 1968 scene with Noodles looking into a mirror - though here Leone is commenting less on her narcissism than her two-facedness.

And speaking of two-facedness, Max (whose younger self even has a double in the form of his son) also looks into a mirror during the climactic scene with Noodles.

Did anyone mention Noodles looking into the bathroom mirror just before his encounter with Peggy? This occurs just after Deborah's "go look at yourself" comment.

Mat  


Title: Re: Visual Motifs (Doors, Mirrors, Timepieces)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 18, 2012, 07:56:12 PM
Noodles isn't the only one who peers into mirrors throughout the film. When we first see Deborah, dancing among the “empties and the broom sticks,” she takes a long, admiring look into a mirror, which points to the little prima donna’s conceit and narcissism. In 1933 she looks at herself in a compact mirror just before her reunion with Noodles at Moe’s speakeasy. And she spends virtually the entire 1968 scene with Noodles looking into a mirror - though here Leone is commenting less on her narcissism than her two-facedness.

And speaking of two-facedness, Max (whose younger self even has a double in the form of his son) also looks into a mirror during the climactic scene with Noodles.

Did anyone mention Noodles looking into the bathroom mirror just before his encounter with Peggy? This occurs soon after Deborah's "go look at yourself" comment.

Mat  

good points, Mat  O0

But I do not believe either Noodles or Bailey look into the mirror at all during the scene in Bailey's study. When Bailey goes to pour Noodles a drink, the bottle is right in front of a mirror, and as Bailey goes to pour the drink, we see a long shot of him in the mirror. As he is pouring and Noodles is standing behind him, we see a long shot of Noodles in the  mirror. But we do not see any of them look into the mirror at all.

Interestingly, as Bailey is pouring the drink and Noodles is talking to him,(at the 3:27:21 mark) there are a couple of shots where we see Bailey looking up and straight ahead (ie. toward the camera), -- which would mean that he is obviously looking in the mirror, cuz the mirror is in front of him, right where the camera is. But we don't actually see his face in the mirror. So I do not believe there is any point during that scene where we see either of their faces as a mirror image, looking into the mirror.

Even in the long shots in the mirror, it's one a shot of each of them, and not the two of them together. I guess cuz Noodles can't "see" Bailey as being Max -- just as he insists on referring to him as "Mr. Bailey" or "Mr. Secretary."


Title: Re: Visual Motifs (Doors, Mirrors, Timepieces)
Post by: MatViola on January 18, 2012, 08:37:42 PM
Yeah, Max definitely looks into the mirror, but he doesn’t look at himself. He looks at Noodles. Make of that what you will.


Title: Re: Visual Motifs (Doors, Mirrors, Timepieces)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 25, 2012, 08:32:05 AM
just looking through an old thread and found this comment on the mirrors http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=37.msg1997#msg1997


Title: Re: Visual Motifs (Doors, Mirrors, Timepieces)
Post by: Noodles_SlowStir on June 10, 2012, 09:50:53 PM
                                                MIRRORS

There are at least 5 times in OUATIA where I can recall the scene involving mirrors (if I'm missing any, please add 'em!)

A) in one of the most memorable scenes in the film,young Noodles looks in a mirror as he is escaping New York; then we are immediately introduced to old Noodles 35 years later, looking into the same mirror

B) As the gang (in its first scene as children) walk in the crowded streets of the Lower East Side, they pause to look into a mirror on the street.

C) When Noodles returns to Fat Moe's after having been gone for a while  --(dating and raping Deborah, "seeing her off" at the train station, spending time "by the Chinks" mourning her," -- he looks into a mirror as he walks into the back room.

D)  Noodles's meeting with "old" Deborah takes place entirely in front of a completely mirrored wall

E) Bailey's study has a couple of small mirrors on the wall



What's the significance of all this?

B occurs just after Deborah says, "Just look at yourself, David Aaronson!" So the theme has something to do with people "seeing themselves"; I remember someone once said that at the end, when Secretary Bailey looks out the window at his young son, he is "looking at himself," as a youngster.



I think I agree with you on the importance of Deborah and her association with mirrors. It's a significant association.  When young Deborah says look at yourself to Noodles, it affects him for the rest of his life.  He seems to be "measuring" himself each time he looks at himself.  In addition,  I think older Noodles sees his own mortality.  Quite natural.  Particularly when he returns to the train station and looks in the glass.  I think this is what he sees.  I think Jill in OUATITW is going through this same type of process when she's looking in the mirror left alone at Sweetwater.  She's considering where she is in life, what could of been, what to do, what are the possibilities for her now......

Under B when the group looks in the mirror, there's one observation I would like to add.  I don't think it's an original thought but it's not on this thread.  Not sure if it could be on another thread.  When Domenic looks in the mirror, he sees death.  He sees his own death.  Mirrors in some literature and other films (such as Cocteau's Orphee) are associated with death.

(http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/4131/ndvd002y.jpg)
(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/4003/ndvd004z.jpg)
(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/5585/ndvd005s.jpg)
(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2377/ndvd006c.jpg)

SL fixes his camera on the reflection of the wagon so as to foreshadow the scene in which Domenic dies in the arms of Noodles by the wagon wheel.



Title: Re: Visual Motifs (Doors, Mirrors, Timepieces)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 13, 2012, 04:03:55 PM

I think I agree with you on the importance of Deborah and her association with mirrors. It's a significant association.  When young Deborah says look at yourself to Noodles, it affects him for the rest of his life.  He seems to be "measuring" himself each time he looks at himself.  In addition,  I think older Noodles sees his own mortality.  Quite natural.  Particularly when he returns to the train station and looks in the glass.  I think this is what he sees.  I think Jill in OUATITW is going through this same type of process when she's looking in the mirror left alone at Sweetwater.  She's considering where she is in life, what could of been, what to do, what are the possibilities for her now......

Under B when the group looks in the mirror, there's one observation I would like to add.  I don't think it's an original thought but it's not on this thread.  Not sure if it could be on another thread.  When Domenic looks in the mirror, he sees death.  He sees his own death.  Mirrors in some literature and other films (such as Cocteau's Orphee) are associated with death.

(http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/4131/ndvd002y.jpg)
(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/4003/ndvd004z.jpg)
(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/5585/ndvd005s.jpg)
(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2377/ndvd006c.jpg)

SL fixes his camera on the reflection of the wagon so as to foreshadow the scene in which Domenic dies in the arms of Noodles by the wagon wheel.



That's an interesting point  O0 Although it would only be possible to pick up on it with multiple viewings.


Title: Re: Visual Motifs (Doors, Mirrors, Timepieces)
Post by: moviesceleton on June 14, 2012, 05:46:01 AM
That's an interesting point  O0 Although it would only be possible to pick up on it with multiple viewings.
I don't think something like that is meant to be "picked up" consciously. It's a nice and subtle touch if it is in fact intentional, but I think it's meant to have a subconscious effect on you.


Title: Re: Visual Motifs (Doors, Mirrors, Timepieces)
Post by: Cusser on June 16, 2012, 12:47:41 PM
I still say that Deb should have looked older when she was looking at herself in the mirror, but as she actually DID appear when "seen" through Noodles' eyes.

And I didn't like casting of McGovern, she had no charisma compared to Connelly.  You could tell then that Connelly had "it".


Title: Re: Visual Motifs (Doors, Mirrors, Timepieces)
Post by: dave jenkins on June 17, 2012, 12:55:45 PM
And I didn't like casting of McGovern, she had no charisma compared to Connelly.  You could tell then that Connelly had "it".
Yup.


Title: Re: Visual Motifs (Doors, Mirrors, Timepieces)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 17, 2012, 10:14:18 PM
I don't know why so many people didn't like McGovern. I thought she was terrific.

I mean, maybe you think she wasn't as hot as the other girls, but she is different, she is supposed to be the nice sweet girl, as opposed to Carol and Eve who are more the "gangster molls," they are blondes, and Deborah is the good girl, traditionally indicated by the brunette. You have to believe that she is nice and sweet and pretty enough that Noodles would actually fall for her, and I think it's believable. Even if you think the others are hotter. And her acting performance is just fine too. Really, I think it's unfair how much criticism McGovern gets here.



Title: Re: Visual Motifs (Doors, Mirrors, Timepieces)
Post by: noodles_leone on June 18, 2012, 05:19:55 AM
Lol I wouldn't call her "nice". She's far more dangerous than any other girl! And she's a bit hotter than Peggy, but maybe that's just me ;)


Title: Re: Visual Motifs (Doors, Mirrors, Timepieces)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 18, 2012, 06:31:23 AM
Lol I wouldn't call her "nice". She's far more dangerous than any other girl! And she's a bit hotter than Peggy, but maybe that's just me ;)

haha in the movie Peggy is actually a combination of two girls from The Hoods: Peggy and Fanny. Fanny was a fat girl that Noodles made out with in the bathroom; Peggy was the whore who later ran her own brothel. The movies just combines them into one girl. (It's one of several places that the movie combines characters from the book).

btw, in the book, Peggy is supposed to be a great whore (it doesn't explicitly say that she is hot; but I guess it can be assumed if she is this great whore). The gang helps her out after she has problems cuz some guy holds up the whole place a few times. This part isn't brought out as clearly in the movie; in the movie, we just happen to see them in her office getting paid, so it can be assumed that they provide protection for the brothel, or perhaps are silent owners of it, but it's never really mentioned. Also, in the movie she says "I work in a high class joint now, where they pay me by the pound." That's a bit inaccurate; as we see later on, she actually runs the joint!

the whorehouse is an amazing set. as with so many Leone/Simi sets, it's based on paintings (I forgot whose). how many other directors would go to such lengths to decorate a set like that, which is used for one scene?  It adds so much; every scene is so great to look at for the production design alone. IMO OUATIA has the greatest production design of any movie ever. Just unbelievable. As Frayling often says, the production design by Carlo Simi is one of those aspects of Leone's movies that is still underrated.


Title: Re: Visual Motifs (Doors, Mirrors, Timepieces)
Post by: cheem_2000 on June 18, 2012, 10:11:15 AM
I don't know why so many people didn't like McGovern. I thought she was terrific.

I mean, maybe you think she wasn't as hot as the other girls, but she is different, she is supposed to be the nice sweet girl, as opposed to Carol and Eve who are more the "gangster molls," they are blondes, and Deborah is the good girl, traditionally indicated by the brunette. You have to believe that she is nice and sweet and pretty enough that Noodles would actually fall for her, and I think it's believable. Even if you think the others are hotter. And her acting performance is just fine too. Really, I think it's unfair how much criticism McGovern gets here.

Completely agree with you. Yes Connelly was sweeter and had more charisma but that is obvious bcos she was a child. The older Deborah will have more of the cares of life and will be more sober..more repressed. This is a film about time and its effect on characters. Noodles is certainly more spontaneous when younger, and serious and sober when older. the child hood sequencs are the most engaging and the adult sequences are more sober and melancholy. Leone knew what he was doing when he directed this film! :)



Title: Re: Visual Motifs (Doors, Mirrors, Timepieces)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 18, 2012, 10:29:23 AM
Lol I wouldn't call her "nice". She's far more dangerous than any other girl!

Ultimately yes, she turns out a bit different, and that is one of the many ironies of the movie.

But during the days before she went to Hollywood, I think that McGovern is absolutely believable as a girl that Noodles would fall for. When someone goes head over heels for someone else, it is usually about more than just looks; there is some deep connection that they feel. Though looks are important of course. McGovern's job is to be believable as a character that Noodles would fall for. Even if you may not think she's that hot, the point is that it is absolutely believable IMO that Noodles falls for her. Both in looks and personality. Yeah, he screws around with whores and random babes, but there is one girl that he MUST have, that really means something to him. and not getting her destroys him.

IMO McGovern as Deborah is as good a casting decision as any.


and btw, I was reading on p. 445 of STDWD that Larry Rapp, the actor who played Fat Moe "was... a newcomer to film -- he was a garment salesman who sent his photograph to a casting agent friend on the off-chance." I think Rapp was simply awesome, one of the best performances in the movie (btw,  according to imdb, he was in one previous movie http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0710858/ )


Title: Re: Visual Motifs (Doors, Mirrors, Timepieces)
Post by: Groggy on July 16, 2012, 09:05:37 AM
I'd guess Rapp is a friend of Joe Pesci as they've appeared in several films together. 


Title: Re: Visual Motifs (Doors, Mirrors, Timepieces)
Post by: Senza on March 11, 2013, 11:56:49 PM
Wow, I need to pay even closer attention the next time I watch it, there's so much to look for and look at.