Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => The Good, The Bad and The Ugly => Topic started by: Dirty Rat on January 14, 2008, 03:54:58 AM



Title: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: Dirty Rat on January 14, 2008, 03:54:58 AM
The scene begins with Tuco dangling a chicken as he enters the Grotto - that always makes me smile!
I cannot remember the actual name of the piece that they chose for this scene but it is the same as when Blondie is recovering in the hospital and Tuco is talking to one of the priests (when he necks the whiskey).
My question is where did the very intro come from that is played right at the beginning of the scene which badly cuts into this piece that we already know? It is only a couple of seconds long but I do not recognise it from anywhere on the official expanded score that is commerically available.

Do any of you know?


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: dave jenkins on January 14, 2008, 11:51:33 AM
I don't and it's a good question. It also makes me wonder whether this music was actually on the Rome premier cut of the film, or if it's been recently added, like Tuco's English dub.


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: Dirty Rat on January 15, 2008, 04:46:48 AM
Personally I think that the music was added along with the new Tuco dub - as in, it did not appear in the original Rome premiere.

The music itself is an excellent piece that is quite moving and fits the scene that it has been copied from to great effect. I don't think however that the music fits the Grotto scene at all and I think that Eli's dubbing and the editing is dreadful. I do however still love that scene!! I watch it with the sound off to appreciate it's quality.

As for the very intro of the music I have no idea where that came from. I like it but the editing into the other piece of music sounds worse than the editing that I used to do on cassettes with my raster blaster back in the 80's....  ;D



Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: archangel on March 22, 2008, 08:18:43 AM
i'd agree about tuco's "voice".
very thin and sratchy.
i'm an audio person and it would have been just so easy to match the voice of the "old" and "young" Eli.
the right choice of mic would be first off.
then some eq (tone) on the old Eli to roll off the tops (treble) and hence the raspiness.
even better would have been a voice print of the young Eli superimposed over the old Eli.
funny how these "restoration experts" missed that.
most DAW's (Digital Audio Workstations) have more than you'd even need to do the type of thing well.
but these guys were clueless?
Clint's voice is a lot better matched to his original.
and the guy who does LvC is naturally pitched more baritone and opposed to LcV's tenor. Eq would have been enough with this.
i have GBU in the mac's DVD player now and will check the music edit and get back.
archie.


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: archangel on March 22, 2008, 08:49:23 AM
The scene begins with Tuco dangling a chicken as he enters the Grotto - that always makes me smile!
I cannot remember the actual name of the piece that they chose for this scene but it is the same as when Blondie is recovering in the hospital and Tuco is talking to one of the priests (when he necks the whiskey).
My question is where did the very intro come from that is played right at the beginning of the scene which badly cuts into this piece that we already know? It is only a couple of seconds long but I do not recognise it from anywhere on the official expanded score that is commerically available.

Do any of you know?

you are right, i've never heard it before either, just checked the DVD.
after this little new bit it segues into the playful three note motive on the woodwind, we've all heard before.
starts with flute, then oboe then cor anglais (tenor oboe) and end with the famous "Ah eh Ah eh Ahhhhhhh" played on the CA again.
btw, the playful motive, actually the 1st, 7th and 5th of a major scale, is used by Ennio a lot in many soundtracks including "The Mission".
flexible little three notes......
Mina's Se Telephonando uses this device as well. (EM wrote the music, 1966, around the time of GBU.)


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: Dirty Rat on March 28, 2008, 05:39:47 AM
Thanks for the info Archie


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 17, 2011, 12:53:47 AM
Personally I think that the music was added along with the new Tuco dub - as in, it did not appear in the original Rome premiere.

The music itself is an excellent piece that is quite moving and fits the scene that it has been copied from to great effect. I don't think however that the music fits the Grotto scene at all and I think that Eli's dubbing and the editing is dreadful. I do however still love that scene!! I watch it with the sound off to appreciate it's quality.

As for the very intro of the music I have no idea where that came from. I like it but the editing into the other piece of music sounds worse than the editing that I used to do on cassettes with my raster blaster back in the 80's....  ;D

Over 2 years later I believe I can confirm your suspicions, Dirty Rat.  O0

Aside from the horrible dubbing of Eli's lines as well as the 3 bandidos, the score during this scene on the MGM SE DVD/BD never sat well with me. (I don't have an issue with Eli's voice sounding different, what do you expect nearly 40 years later? Instead, I'm appalled by the fact that John Kirk et al. couldn't even get the lines right when it's fairly easy to determine what Eli really says by reading his lips and I'm no professional lip reader!)

Firstly, I don't think Leone/Morricone would have approved the use of the exact same score in 2 totally separate scenes. Also, it's obvious MGM needed to extend the borrowed score a bit by clumsily adding on the intro piece of music in order to fit the scene better.

I was tipped off earlier today by a bootleg download of the complete soundtrack from an Ennio Morricone blog site where the 2nd part of track 5 (i.e. not preceded by the rope bridge score) is titled simply, "In the Grotto (1:03)". I originally thought this score was intended for the lost Socorro scene (incorrectly assuming that MGM got the Grotto scene right) but it makes much more sense that it was actually intended for the Grotto scene. I then played the Grotto scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdGpayem0jw&feature=fl_lolz&playnext=1&list=FLNppY1jPLVuM) with the volume down and started "In the Grotto" track immediately after Tuco, while holding out the chicken, says, "....why do you kill yourself working?"

Guess what? It fits the scene perfectly!  :o

When Tuco says, "If you work for a living...." the 2nd time around it doesn't fit with the proper score, which makes total sense to me because I don't think Tuco was meant to say that line again at that moment. I sure can't see his lips moving!!

Furthermore, the track list of the official expanded score is in chronological order and the grotto score comes after the score for the rope bridge and before the score where Blondie escapes being hanged by Tuco at the hotel. The Socorro scene would have followed Angel Eyes at the fort, which wouldn't fit with the order of the tracks on the CD.

Long story short...MGM failed miserably at getting the Grotto scene right. I know many of the folks here don't care for this scene but I'm guessing this has a lot do with how poorly it was "restored". At the very least, I would like to see this scene redone using the proper music.





Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: stanton on May 17, 2011, 02:08:58 AM
It has more to do that the scene isn't necessary, and just like the Socorro scene makes the film longer at a time where it already tends to be too long.

And I don't see a great use in introducing 3 guys who simply got shot one scene later. The later scene works as well (if not better) without knowing these guys.
For me this scene destroys the balance of the film at this point.

Apart from that it is quite interesting what you have said about the score of this scene. Makes me wonder what the Italian scene looked like. Maybe it wasn't ever part of any Italian version, and then maybe it wasn't ever dubbed and scored.

Btw, does this scene appear on any of the Italian DVDs?


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 17, 2011, 10:00:18 AM
No, this scene isn't included in any Italian home release of the film. However, the fact that this scene was cut at the final stage before theatrical release is consistent with it showing up on the expanded score CD in the appropriate chronological order. I wonder if the original Italian vocal/sound effects track is used on the MGM SE DVD? I'll have to check.

I'm not trying to debate whether or not the grotto scene should be included in the film. I understand the sentiment that the scene is unnecessary and messes up the pace of an already marginally long movie. However, I feel it shows Tuco's ingenuity by manipulating the 3 bandidos in addition to correcting the obvious continuity problem. I always wondered where they came from for 20 years until the SE DVD was released although I must admit it is not a critical issue.

All I'm saying is that by playing this score over the grotto scene clearly shows it was intended for this scene. The music syncs well with Tuco popping his head around the cave wall and its duration fits with the time it takes Tuco to enter the cave and grab a potato, just before his monologue begins.

MGM didn't do this cut scene any favors by using the wrong score and terrible dubbing, which only makes the scene more superfluous in many people's eyes.


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: dave jenkins on May 17, 2011, 11:09:58 AM
It has more to do that the scene isn't necessary, and just like the Socorro scene makes the film longer at a time where it already tends to be too long.
You've just crossed the line, pal! Chainsaws at dawn!


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: stanton on May 17, 2011, 12:05:24 PM
Actually I own a chainsaw and know how to use it ...


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: Novecento on May 17, 2011, 12:11:13 PM
I was tipped off earlier today by a bootleg download of the complete soundtrack from an Ennio Morricone blog site where the 2nd part of track 5 (i.e. not preceded by the rope bridge score) is titled simply, "In the Grotto (1:03)". I originally thought this score was intended for the lost Socorro scene (incorrectly assuming that MGM got the Grotto scene right) but it makes much more sense that it was actually intended for the Grotto scene.

Nice detective work eurospec  O0

What we need to do now is contact Scorcese and say that now he's done with the OUATITW blu-ray, he should turn his attention to a nice blu-ray of GBU.


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: Lil Brutto on May 17, 2011, 03:03:46 PM
Thanks, Novocento.

It would be great if Scorcese or someone else with the knowledge, power and passion would set out to provide the ultimate restoration of this film: Restored mono soundtrack, theatrical, MGM extended and Rome Premiere cuts using seamless branching of previously deleted scenes, and the restored video of the Mondo BD.


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: stanton on May 17, 2011, 03:22:48 PM
Thanks, Novocento.

It would be great if Scorcese or someone else with the knowledge, power and passion would set out to provide the ultimate restoration of this film: Restored mono soundtrack, theatrical, MGM extended and Rome Premiere cuts using seamless branching of previously deleted scenes, and the restored video of the Mondo BD.

Well, yes, that would be indeed great. But it will remain a dream.

It seems they are not even willing to add the mono sound. And that should be an implicitness for people who dare to change the sound for an unnecessary 5.1 sound. Especially on a medium which allows a lot of audio tracks.


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: iceman on August 11, 2011, 02:17:47 PM

H Guys,
             continuing on the grotto scene...I've always wondered firstly why TUCO would plunge his hand straight into a boiling cauldron of water to retrieve a potato...and not burn his hand...and secondly, why did the bandits come in through a hole in the roof rather than the cave opening?

ICE


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: Cusser on August 12, 2011, 06:47:56 AM
1.  Tuco was tough !!!

2.  Dramatic effect !!!


Agree corny, but interesting way for the three thugs to make their appearance, but not very realistic.  Maybe that is why it was cut.


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: UNKNOWN Next to Arch Stanton on February 03, 2012, 08:35:17 PM
Personally I believe that this scene was needed to identify where the three bandits came from. Even though they meet a quick demise in the following scene, they seem to emerge from nowhere in the hotel sequence. Leone did cut this scene due to pacing issues, but I believe it was a nice addition to the extended version.


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: Dirty Rat on February 04, 2012, 03:22:57 AM
Personally I believe that this scene was needed to identify where the three bandits came from. Even though they meet a quick demise in the following scene, they seem to emerge from nowhere in the hotel sequence. Leone did cut this scene due to pacing issues, but I believe it was a nice addition to the extended version.

I agree with that and thanks to Honest Farmer for bringing this up again last year - I never showed my appreciation.
The question still stands though - where did that little snippet of music come from? :)


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: Lil Brutto on February 04, 2012, 12:00:10 PM
We'll probably never know.

Unfortunately, I don't know have the skills to superimpose the soundtrack in question over the grotto scene. Perhaps Jordan Krug could assist?


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: stanton on February 04, 2012, 12:56:06 PM
Personally I believe that this scene was needed to identify where the three bandits came from.

I personally see no reason why we should have any interest in knowing where these 3 unlucky guy came from.
I have seen the 161 min version a dozen times without ever asking me that.

If this is important for you, then you should also ask where Blondie found Shorty (with whom he continues the "reward business), or where Sentenza found the men with whom he makes business in the POW camp and who later accompany him to the ghost town.


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: Dirty Rat on February 06, 2012, 03:17:53 AM
I personally see no reason why we should have any interest in knowing where these 3 unlucky guy came from.
I have seen the 161 min version a dozen times without ever asking me that.

If this is important for you, then you should also ask where Blondie found Shorty (with whom he continues the "reward business), or where Sentenza found the men with whom he makes business in the POW camp and who later accompany him to the ghost town.

I do agree with this point.
The only one that truly works for me 100% is The Fort scene. Surely we needed to know how the frig Angeleyes got to being a sergeant at Betterville.


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: stanton on February 06, 2012, 05:46:17 AM
Also not really.

It was always clear for me that he only was there cause he hoped too find Carson.

We still don't know how Sentenza managed it to become a Sergeant and to be ordered to Betterville instead to the front. But if I want I can easily find my own explanation. A film needs not to explain every detail.

The scene at the fort is for me important for rhythmical reasons. And it is one scene which shows Sentenza more likable.


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: dave jenkins on February 06, 2012, 10:32:20 AM
None of these "extra" scenes are necessary, but I want as many scenes as I can get in my favorite film. The only question that's relevant as far as I'm concerned is, Does the scene play? Certainly, the fort scene is successful, and the 6-is-a-perfect-number scene works. The Apache Canyon scene doesn't add much, but it does provide a fun cameo. The grotto scene? Maybe not . . . .


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 19, 2012, 01:18:58 AM
I was tipped off earlier today by a bootleg download of the complete soundtrack from an Ennio Morricone blog site where the 2nd part of track 5 (i.e. not preceded by the rope bridge score) is titled simply, "In the Grotto (1:03)"...I then played the Grotto scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdGpayem0jw&feature=fl_lolz&playnext=1&list=FLNppY1jPLVuM) with the volume down and started "In the Grotto" track immediately after Tuco, while holding out the chicken, says, "....why do you kill yourself working?"

...At the very least, I would like to see this scene redone using the proper music.

I'm just starting to learn how to make my own custom/preservation BD/DVDs after acquiring all the necessary hardware but I got a long way to go yet.

Anyways, I thought I'd make an extremely crude attempt at syncing track 5 with the grotto scene as I described above over a year ago.

Using my laptop, I played the youtube video in the above link and played the score in iTunes and captured the video and sound using my blackberry. It sure ain't pretty and I didn't nail the synchronization perfectly (the score seems to lag a wee bit behind) but it does give you a sense how the track fits with the scene.

Here's the youtube link: CLICK HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MF52afW8lE&feature=youtu.be)

Thoughts?


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: cigar joe on June 19, 2012, 03:55:22 AM
It does fit, I don't remember what it has on the SE now though to compare.


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: Lil Brutto on June 19, 2012, 09:23:54 AM
It does fit, I don't remember what it has on the SE now though to compare.

Here is the score on the SE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdGpayem0jw&feature=fl_lolz&playnext=1&list=FLNppY1jPLVuM


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: noodles_leone on June 19, 2012, 10:48:57 AM
It fits!
I still hate the scene :D


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 19, 2012, 11:32:00 AM
It fits!
I still hate the scene :D

the first time I saw GBU (was my first Leone film ever), I thought the first half moved terribly slowly. Almost shut the movie off. And I remember particularly hating this scene. I thought it was just ridiculous. Sounded weird to me too; I had no idea then about the whole re-dubbing stuff.

Now, taken on its own, I actually think it's a pretty funny scene, as a distinct episode. It's meaningless for the story -- does it REALLY bother anyone how Tuco could recruit men? Really? Certain things in Westerns are a given. Gunslingers have an endless supply of bullets. They always have cigars. Even when TWWNN is beaten uyp and escapes into hiding in the mine shaft, he somehow seems to have in his pocket an endless supply of toscanos; though in that case his pocket should look like it's bulging. Certain things are just accepted. Is it that hard for one mexican gunslinger/con-man to recruit a few others on a job? -- and it certainly should not have been put into the movie itself, for the simple reason that Leone didn't want it there. I couldn't believe the nerve of John Jerk, on the GBU bonus materials, explaining that despite Leone's removing it, Jerk decided it would be "jarring for the viewer to suddenly see Tuco have these 3 men" (while using the fact that it was shown once, at the Rome Premier, as having a historical basis for leaving it in, even though Leone himself removed it after that premier). Really, cocksucker? YOU should be the one deciding what is jarring for the viewer, rather than the man who made the movie? You know, I guess we should all be forced to say a prayer thanking God every day for John Jerk, without whom our movies would all be jarring. Maybe all directors should consult with the Jerk on final cuts of their films. he can get the title of "Anti-Jarring Supervisor." Maybe he should start a school for it, with the degree "AJS." In addition to having an A.C.E. filming the movie, it should be required to have an A.J.S. to ensure that the jarringness is up to Jerkian standards.  To all you fans who enjoyed GBU for 35 years, you are a bunch of losers -- you were watching a jarring movie without even knowing it, till The Jerk rescued you  ::) ::) ::) ::)

And of course, what would you do without Jerk's gunshots? Cuz Jerk knows best about pistols. And Jerk decided that Leone's gunshots wouldn't fit with Jerk's beautiful new audio. Glad to know we have someone looking out for us  ::)

Alright, I'll stop there.  I should get started talking about the Jerk cuz it's hard to stop. I just couldn't believe the utter audacity he had to look into the camera and say that he decided the movie would be jarring and therefore changed Leone's work.


But I am definitely happy the scene is available; I just wish it was in the bonus materials.

And as for restoring the audio from all the deleted scenes, I may be in the minority, but I actually am happy that they used the American voices -- the elderly Wallach and Eastwood, and a voice actor for Van Cleef -- rather than using the Italian audio. I understand that Leone didn't supervise it of course, but let's face it, with all the dubbing post-synchronized anyway, what are the choices? the only other option is to use the Italian dub with English subtitles. IMO that is no less jarring than hearing the voices from 35 years later.  And for those of you who disagree with me and prefer the Italian dib with English subtitles for those scenes -- I believe that all the deleted scenes are available as bonus materials on the single dvd MGM released in 1998, in Italian, though i am not sure if there are English subtitles for that scene). Plus it has awful quality with bad film and a shitload of grain, so it's perfect for the purists  ;)) So this way, between the SE and the single disc, we have both the Italian dub and the 35 years later dub  :)

---

My dream fan edit of this movie is as follows (I'd be happy to pay for it. Please PM me if you wanna make it for me)

Scenes: All scenes in the Special Edition, with the following 2 changes: the Cave Scene should be deleted, and the full Torture/Orchestra Scene should be used.

Audio: The original English mono. For the restored scenes, use the 35-years-later English audio. For the Torture Scene, I'd use the Italian dub (cuz no English dub exists for the extended Torture Scene)



Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: Cusser on June 19, 2012, 10:08:15 PM
I feel I can tell the difference between Van Cleef's voice and Simon Prescott's.  And I assume that if they had used voice actors instead of Eastwood and Wallach for the extra scenes, that there'd still be a mis-match.  Sure, Wallach did his in New York, and Eastwood in California, but I bet they did this for free, and what a great honor.  Wallach still says strangers come up to him with "Tuco !!!". 

I've seen stills: Eastwood was more than "just an actor", he's helping.  One scene shows him in street clothes making suggestions to Tuco, another shows him about to go in helicopter over Sad Hill with Leone.


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 19, 2012, 10:42:02 PM
I feel I can tell the difference between Van Cleef's voice and Simon Prescott's.  And I assume that if they had used voice actors instead of Eastwood and Wallach for the extra scenes, that there'd still be a mis-match.  Sure, Wallach did his in New York, and Eastwood in California, but I bet they did this for free, and what a great honor.  Wallach still says strangers come up to him with "Tuco !!!". 

I've seen stills: Eastwood was more than "just an actor", he's helping.  One scene shows him in street clothes making suggestions to Tuco, another shows him about to go in helicopter over Sad Hill with Leone.

yeah of course you can tell the difference.

And the actor who dubbed the deleted parts with Aldo Giuffre 35 years later, was also not the same guy who dubbed the English for Giuffre's part in 1968. And that's obvious too.

But the other option is using the Italian audio with English subtitles? Is that any less jarring? Not for me. I'm happy the way it is with the later dubbing. And if you prefer the Italian dub for those scenes, that's available for you on the bonus features of the 1998 dvd: it has all the deleted scenes (besides the Cave Scene) with Italian audio.


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: stanton on June 20, 2012, 02:06:24 AM
Instead of using Eastwood and Wallach they should have tried to find voices more similar to the original voices. It is possible to find voices that are similar enough.
Or it must be possible to reprocess the voices until they sound similar.

If both does not work it is always the best solution to have the original dub with subs. In Germany most of the reconstructed versions are done with subs, and only a few prestige films are done by a re-dubbing.
 


Title: Re: Music Score in the Grotto Scene
Post by: Senza on March 14, 2013, 05:19:32 AM
Over 2 years later I believe I can confirm your suspicions, Dirty Rat.  O0

Aside from the horrible dubbing of Eli's lines as well as the 3 bandidos, the score during this scene on the MGM SE DVD/BD never sat well with me. (I don't have an issue with Eli's voice sounding different, what do you expect nearly 40 years later? Instead, I'm appalled by the fact that John Kirk et al. couldn't even get the lines right when it's fairly easy to determine what Eli really says by reading his lips and I'm no professional lip reader!)

Firstly, I don't think Leone/Morricone would have approved the use of the exact same score in 2 totally separate scenes. Also, it's obvious MGM needed to extend the borrowed score a bit by clumsily adding on the intro piece of music in order to fit the scene better.

I was tipped off earlier today by a bootleg download of the complete soundtrack from an Ennio Morricone blog site where the 2nd part of track 5 (i.e. not preceded by the rope bridge score) is titled simply, "In the Grotto (1:03)". I originally thought this score was intended for the lost Socorro scene (incorrectly assuming that MGM got the Grotto scene right) but it makes much more sense that it was actually intended for the Grotto scene. I then played the Grotto scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdGpayem0jw&feature=fl_lolz&playnext=1&list=FLNppY1jPLVuM) with the volume down and started "In the Grotto" track immediately after Tuco, while holding out the chicken, says, "....why do you kill yourself working?"

Guess what? It fits the scene perfectly!  :o

When Tuco says, "If you work for a living...." the 2nd time around it doesn't fit with the proper score, which makes total sense to me because I don't think Tuco was meant to say that line again at that moment. I sure can't see his lips moving!!

Furthermore, the track list of the official expanded score is in chronological order and the grotto score comes after the score for the rope bridge and before the score where Blondie escapes being hanged by Tuco at the hotel. The Socorro scene would have followed Angel Eyes at the fort, which wouldn't fit with the order of the tracks on the CD.

Long story short...MGM failed miserably at getting the Grotto scene right. I know many of the folks here don't care for this scene but I'm guessing this has a lot do with how poorly it was "restored". At the very least, I would like to see this scene redone using the proper music.





I just tried playing the soundtrack and the grotto scene, and it really is a perfect fit! Good job!