Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => For a Few Dollars More => Topic started by: Jordan Krug on April 15, 2008, 09:59:17 AM



Title: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Jordan Krug on April 15, 2008, 09:59:17 AM
remember when John Kirk said in the extra features on the newer dvd that they only ever had a pan and scan english version that had the complete ending to the beating scene and the extra few seconds of Manco lighting his cigar during his introduction? So they were forced to put the out-of-sync version with the trims etc on dvd cause it was the only letterboxed source they had?

Well, I pulled out my old laserdisc of the film and it's the complete version, with those moments and in sync, just like my old pan and scan vhs. And it's letterboxed.....guess that's the version I'll be watching from now on.....thanks a lot mgm.....


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Groggy on April 15, 2008, 10:41:34 AM
I haven't seen the complete end to the beating since the first time I ever saw the movie on TBS a number of years ago. It's something that's always aggravated me. >:(


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Dirty Rat on April 16, 2008, 04:05:54 AM
Is John Kirk the geezer that reckoned the original gun shots from GBU became unworkable with since they re-mixed the soundtrack into Dolby 5:1?
Personally I think that when you turn lose a team of people like that onto a project like restoring these 3 films they don't know when to stop. I don't have any complaints about FOD but like the other two posters here have always felt a bit pee-d off about the cut beating scene in FAFDM.
Also the cut down scene where Indio giggles insanely in the prison yard annoys me. I always found that bit so creepy, I guess it still is actually.
However these two films I can live with and I think they look great.

They have however ruined GBU for me. Fortunately I saw it that many times on a vhs taped from the TV when I was younger that I still remember how it did sound. Sure the picture quality is great but the new gun shots sound like something from a modern action film dubbed over a film that is supposed to be set in the 1860's - oh hang on, that IS what they have done.....

Some of the dubbing is absolutely dreadful too. The Grotto scene in particular.

I also think that the new scripts leave little to be desired in places. Would the captain at the Fort really have said something like "Mmm our hotel is full of luxurious cuisine with no expenses spared" (not 100% accurate I know) when the film was originally written. Just seems a bit naff to me.
The original gun shots, and cannon fire for that matter were all totally different and were so important to making the film what it was, I thought. Now I believe they are all the same. They are also far too loud and I have to turn down the TV when watching the film.
Gosh, what a moan!

I used to love watching the film and although I was thrilled to see all the new bits back in '04 when it came out I think I wish that you could remove the extra scenes and watch them as extras - like someone wrote he a while ago


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: dave jenkins on April 16, 2008, 07:48:54 AM
I used to love watching the film and although I was thrilled to see all the new bits back in '04 when it came out I think I wish that you could remove the extra scenes and watch them as extras - like someone wrote he a while ago
You can with this edition, still available (and only $7.49): http://video.barnesandnoble.com/search/product.asp?afsrc=1&ean=27616672926&rv=1


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: marmota-b on April 17, 2008, 06:30:24 AM
I'm wondering what version do I have... any hints on how to learn?


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Jordan Krug on April 17, 2008, 08:35:37 AM
I'm wondering what version do I have... any hints on how to learn?


well a quick rundown is like this:

-old mgm pan and scan vhs (and now as I recently discovered also the letterboxed laserdisc- although I looked at it again and it's 1:85, not 2:35) has a slightly different intro on Eastwood - specifically, when he lights his cigar in the rain, a thunderclap is heard as he reveals his face (all other versions have this thunderclap before he lifts his head)...*then he walks off screen*...also has the small scene after the beating (of Indio and Groggy discussing their next move...) and a second of extra indio laughing during his intro that cuts better with the poster.....this is basically the same as the italian version (but the italian version has more of the beating itself-specifically a moment when Eastwood's arms are held and he is booted in the back - you can see this version on youtube)

-mgm then released (on vhs) a letterboxed version of the film, but it was completely out of sync and missing the two moments above (there are slight differences in sound/music cues as well)

-this same version was put out on dvd and was the only version available for years...

-a restored mgm version was released recently as part of the leone boxset - now back in sync, but STILL missing those two bits

-there's also a german set of fod and fafdm where the picture was cleaned up more then the mgm version (more noticable on FOD)- but since their source was the MGM hi-def masters, those small bits are missing

-my feeling is that when the blu-ray version is released, it's STILL going to be missing those two bits....no reason to think otherwise

So why all the noise about two little things? Well I grew up on the vhs and I remember that thunderclap as Eastwood lifts his face - it's WAY more effective...and every time I see the shortened version it kinda throws me off.....I just hate the fact that they released the original version, then swapped it for a truncated version, and we're stuck with that one now...

So for all the restoration work MGM has done on the film, and all of John Kirk's speeches on the dvd on how they searched high and wide for the best elements etc etc....they still haven't fixed this error. I don't understand why they don't take the two scenes from the italian prints/dvd masters, and use the existing versions they once had in their library (and released in english) for the english sound dialog (on the after-the-beating scene)...

Hope this helps...if anyone else has any other info, please feel free to add it....





Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: marmota-b on April 17, 2008, 12:43:35 PM
Mine is 2.35 and probably the restored version, then. Thanks for the info. It's the only version I've ever seen, so I had no clue.


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Jordan Krug on April 19, 2008, 08:56:21 AM
:( arrrrgggghhhhh - turns out my laserdisc is yet ANOTHER version, it's missing the line "he said his name was Manco" and the 2nd and 3rd gunshots by indio intro the jail wardens office!!! too many VERSIONS!!!!


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: sergios specs on August 23, 2008, 02:03:57 AM
i am fortunate enough to own an italian boxed set of all leone's westerns and on FAFDM the small scene at the end of the beating is missing. just as it is on all other dvd versions. even TGTBTU is shorter than the resored version and i'm not talking about the grotto scene. tuco's beating is really short and when blondie says sorry to tuco before riding off with gold. that little part is also missing.when joe is beaten in AFOD esteban stubs out a cigar on joe's hand, i can't remember seeing that on the english version, but i could be wrong,as usual.all the credits on the boxed set dvd's are in italian except FAFDM, which are in english.


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: uncknown on December 16, 2008, 09:01:25 PM
Is John Kirk the geezer that reckoned the original gun shots from GBU became unworkable with since they re-mixed the soundtrack into Dolby 5:1?
Personally I think that when you turn lose a team of people like that onto a project like restoring these 3 films they don't know when to stop. I don't have any complaints about FOD but like the other two posters here have always felt a bit pee-d off about the cut beating scene in FAFDM.
Also the cut down scene where Indio giggles insanely in the prison yard annoys me. I always found that bit so creepy, I guess it still is actually.
However these two films I can live with and I think they look great.

They have however ruined GBU for me. Fortunately I saw it that many times on a vhs taped from the TV when I was younger that I still remember how it did sound. Sure the picture quality is great but the new gun shots sound like something from a modern action film dubbed over a film that is supposed to be set in the 1860's - oh hang on, that IS what they have done.....

Some of the dubbing is absolutely dreadful too. The Grotto scene in particular.

I used to love watching the film and although I was thrilled to see all the new bits back in '04 when it came out I think I wish that you could remove the extra scenes and watch them as extras - like someone wrote he a while ago


John Kirk is the devil!
If the leone films were in B&W he would colorize them!

I have the FAFDM laser. The ratio is 2:00

I am confused about the complaints re the beating scene. The new dvd has the full-lenght version does it not? It is certainly longer than all other versions.

Getting back to John Jerk and co. I tried listening to the "stereo' version of FAF and turned it off after the Manco scene. This incompetent idiot would change the sound field every time a character was talking off-screen. Annoying  bullshit.
Paramount has shown how you can "stereoize' mono films and keep the integrity of the original. OUITW dubs the original stereo music tracks over the mono and leaves the sound effects pretty much alone; no fake directional sfx. (they also did this with MARATHON MAN)  .

the French soundtrack to DYS was done that way also and is far superior to the English remix (admittedly the music is not as potent).
Give me GBU in mono with the restored Angel Eyes scene at the fort and i will be happy! >:(


PS check out Jirk's ridiculous "interpretation' of the love triangle in DYS (i.e. it was Mallory who was the informer; he turned in his friend over jealousy- I KID YOU NOT).


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: The Firecracker on December 18, 2008, 11:17:30 PM

John Kirk is the devil!


I don't suppose this is the same old cocksucker I had a fight with at a screening for the "newly restored" OUATITW print is it?

Where is that thread?


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: marmota-b on May 15, 2009, 09:27:44 AM
I don't suppose this is the same old cocksucker I had a fight with at a screening for the "newly restored" OUATITW print is it?

Where is that thread?

You mean this one?
http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=7097.15


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: The Firecracker on May 18, 2009, 04:45:01 PM
You mean this one?
http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=7097.15

That's the one.
Thanks Marmota.


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: The clint on September 09, 2009, 01:47:09 PM
PS check out Jirk's ridiculous "interpretation' of the love triangle in DYS (i.e. it was Mallory who was the informer; he turned in his friend over jealousy- I KID YOU NOT).

That was actually Glenn Erickson of DVDSavant (Which is a website that denied in it's review of the Leone box-set that the music cues were wrong for Duck You Sucker), he's just as big an idiot as John Kirk is.

I've given up on MGM getting these movies right, next summer I will make my own Blu-Ray version of GBU (and DYS when it's released on Blu-Ray). I will remove the remastered audio and replace it with the mono track from the original MGM disc, then cross-fade it to the mono Italian for the additional scenes. I will also try to include the international version with a "seamless branching" feature. BD downloads take a long time although I hope I can make it available for download sometime in the future.


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: The Peacemaker on September 10, 2009, 10:57:50 PM
he's just as big an idiot as John Kirk is.

That name's poison 'round these parts ever since the days of the DYS dvd release!

If I see one more person say that the final flashback was suppose to show how Sean became jealous I will personally show up at Kirk's home and break a hammer over his skull... >:D


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Groggy on September 11, 2009, 11:17:01 AM
DVD Savant is far from an "idiot".


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: The clint on September 12, 2009, 09:42:19 PM
His comments on the DYS docs are inexcusable though.


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Big Boss 1971 on September 23, 2009, 08:11:07 PM
Remember the shooting off hat scene......I could've sworn it also featured Manco shooting a hole in a coin yet no such scene present last time I saw it ??


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Jordan Krug on September 23, 2009, 08:25:50 PM
I've never heard anything about that coin shooting. You're prob thinking of another spag western, or maybe it's in one of the leone parody westerns?


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Big Boss 1971 on September 24, 2009, 04:51:42 PM
No I'm not......the truth is I *never* watch other westerns besides these.....kid you not !

It could've been Mortimer.....I vividly remember it for some reason  :-\

LOL , hope this won't trun into like the Big Boss saw scene : is it out there or does memory play tricks on you ;)


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Jordan Krug on September 25, 2009, 07:09:47 AM
No I'm not......the truth is I *never* watch other westerns besides these.....kid you not !

It could've been Mortimer.....I vividly remember it for some reason  :-\

LOL , hope this won't trun into like the Big Boss saw scene : is it out there or does memory play tricks on you ;)

Interestingly enough the american poster features a coin with a bullet hole through it...hmmmmm

(http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/7470/forafew.th.jpg) (http://img268.imageshack.us/i/forafew.jpg/)


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Dirty Rat on September 25, 2009, 03:30:01 PM
No I'm not......the truth is I *never* watch other westerns besides these.....kid you not !

It could've been Mortimer.....I vividly remember it for some reason  :-\

LOL , hope this won't trun into like the Big Boss saw scene : is it out there or does memory play tricks on you ;)

I think you are remembering things incorrectly old boy......


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Big Boss 1971 on September 26, 2009, 07:01:03 AM
Yeah prolly.......is it not possible that there's alternate versions out there , for example 1 Asian version of Game of Death had an extra scene not seen in other versions.


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Jordan Krug on September 26, 2009, 02:24:50 PM
It's certainly possible, but in this case a bit unlikely as the italian cut of fafdm is the longest known cut to exist internationally...with most of Leone's cut's the italian is considered the "director's cut", so if there were such a shot, it would probably appear in that version. Also, I've collected Leone books, stills, interviews etc etc for almost 15 years and I've never heard mention of this, doesn't mean that you're wrong, but it seems kind of unlikely being that nobody else has ever mentioned this part of the scene...


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Lil Brutto on January 20, 2011, 08:38:01 PM
...I pulled out my old laserdisc of the film and it's the complete version, with those moments and in sync, just like my old pan and scan vhs. And it's letterboxed...

-old mgm pan and scan vhs (and now as I recently discovered also the letterboxed laserdisc- although I looked at it again and it's 1:85, not 2:35) has a slightly different intro on Eastwood - specifically, when he lights his cigar in the rain, a thunderclap is heard as he reveals his face (all other versions have this thunderclap before he lifts his head)...*then he walks off screen*...also has the small scene after the beating (of Indio and Groggy discussing their next move...) and a second of extra indio laughing during his intro that cuts better with the poster.....this is basically the same as the italian version (but the italian version has more of the beating itself-specifically a moment when Eastwood's arms are held and he is booted in the back - you can see this version on youtube)

:( arrrrgggghhhhh - turns out my laserdisc is yet ANOTHER version, it's missing the line "he said his name was Manco" and the 2nd and 3rd gunshots by indio intro the jail wardens office!!! too many VERSIONS!!!!

Jordan, I'm a little confused...you mentioned your LD has 1.85:1 aspect ratio AND is letterboxed. The "full screen" LD (left pic) is not letterboxed (on my TV). Or perhaps the widescreen edition LD (right pic) is 1.85 instead of 2.35? (I'll have to check.)

The beating scene in the widescreen edition LD is cut but Indio's laugh and the White Rocks scene are uncut. As you mentioned, "his name is Manco" and the shooting of the warden scenes are also cut.

Which of the following laserdiscs do you have?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/trailerparkboy/fafdm-laserdisc-nonlb.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/trailerparkboy/fafdm-laserdisc-lb.jpg)


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Jordan Krug on January 24, 2011, 07:54:10 AM
The one on the right, and you're right, it's not the proper 2:35 aspect...about a year ago I downloaded a dvd version of the film that a fan put together, it is the full Italian cut with English audio...so if a random fan can do it, why can't MGM (or whoever owns MGM these days)


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Lil Brutto on January 24, 2011, 03:36:00 PM
Do you have a link to that torrent? I'd love to have it.

UPDATE: I did some digging and I believe you were referring to LeoneNut's uncut version. Unfortunately, the rapidshare links no longer exist.  :(


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Jordan Krug on January 25, 2011, 09:59:34 AM
Do you have a link to that torrent? I'd love to have it.

UPDATE: I did some digging and I believe you were referring to LeoneNut's uncut version. Unfortunately, the rapidshare links no longer exist.  :(

Yes, that's the one...if you'll pay for shipping I'll send you a copy...P.M. me


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Lil Brutto on January 25, 2011, 02:04:04 PM
Thanks for the offer. I'll definitely take you up on it! I'll send you a PM now.


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 15, 2011, 04:57:46 PM
just found this on youtube; claims to have the full beating scene http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCQp9rnsuEk


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Lil Brutto on March 16, 2011, 01:21:22 AM
just found this on youtube; claims to have the full beating scene http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCQp9rnsuEk
That is indeed the full length beating scene spliced together by LeoneNut, the guy who has offered "fan" edits of SL films in the past.


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Jordan Krug on August 09, 2011, 09:03:01 PM
So, I picked up the new fox/mgm blu ray of FAFDM at walmart for 9.95...

A couple of interesting things :

-There's a new feature on it (this does not appear on any of the older dvd's) about Frayling's collection of posters - I quite enjoyed it, it goes into a lot of detail about the various ad campaigns.

-It has 2 trailers in 1080- both the british versions which feature all of the alternate footage (different takes and some new angles as well, very cool to see these in high def

-The 5.1 mix FIXES the thunderclap when Eastwood lifts his head after lighting his cigar at white rocks but is STILL completely out of sync. Very easy to compare when you switch to the mono mix (which still has the wrong thunderclap position) which is in sync. Gunshots, doors closing etc all out of sync in the 5.1

- Picture is sharper than the italian blu-ray but the cuts remain and it looks digitally sharpened, resulting in some ugly digital noise. I think I prefer the italian BR as it looks a bit more natural.


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Lil Brutto on August 10, 2011, 12:55:10 AM
...I think I prefer the italian BR as it looks a bit more natural.

Me too.


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Jordan Krug on August 11, 2011, 08:08:16 AM
After watching through the movie - now I think the mono might be out of sync in spots - the very end of the scene where Eastwood shoots the apples off the trees - the last shot of van cleef (last shot of the scene) is accompanied by a "twang". In the 5.1 the twang occurs right on the cut to Van Cleef - in the mono the twang starts before the cut - which to me looks out of sync because the joke of the twang should be right on the cut to Van Cleef.

Sigh. One of these days I'm going to use both versions to create a proper 1080 english cut using the italian picture.


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Sensitive Mule on July 10, 2013, 10:18:52 PM
I recently got the box set version of the trilogy on LD (same as separate releases), and have been going through the films on my favorite outdated format.

AFOD is uncut, print is overall in good shape with similar color to the restored 35mm print. Audio is the best available quality for the English mono track as everything else is lossy ac3 and EQ'd to remove noise. The noise here is very minimal and it's only in the last half of the final reel that some intrinsic transfer noise comes through. Wonderful audio. The video master for this was reused for the initial DVD with some minor cleanup. The audio was scrubbed of detail for the DVD mono.

FAFDM is a mixed blessing. The picture is good, coming from a worn print source. It looks overall to be the same source as the MGM DVD, and a 1967 United Artists edited release print. The "third eye" shot of Mortimer's first bounty is excised.  Also missing is the end of the scene where Col. Mortimer gets his bounty, with the mention of Manco being cut right out. The thunderclap/face reveal is correct. Indio only shoots once through the door in his prison escape, with the other shots from the reverse angle cut. His extended laugh is present. The correct night to dawn color timing is present. The beating scene is heavily cut, with most not even having the punching sounds intact.
Audio is again great, despite the censoring. The video seems to be more open than the correct 2.35, more like a 1.8 or 2.0:1 framing.

GBU uses an Italian print seemingly, as all the onscreen title captions for the characters are in Italian. The picture is good, but cropped too closely for more of a 2.5:1 ratio. Audio is excellent.

MGM usually took IPs or available prints and synced them to higher generation audio at this time. The PCM audio here may have come from the English dub master.

The 35mm archival print of FAFDM I saw a few years ago (2010 or so) was said to be the only one MGM had. It was heavily damaged, and I was braced for an edited 1967 release print. What instead played was a beautiful yet heavily worn print that was fully complete. I cannot remember exactly if Indio's laugh or the beating scene was intact (pretty sure the laugh might have been there, but not the beating). So where exactly these sources came form I don't know. Also, FAFDM was restored by Triage from the Techniscope negative for MGM, and used for the remastered DVD/Blu so who knows what exactly has gone on with the film.


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Jordan Krug on July 11, 2013, 05:07:36 AM
Thanks for your detailed review. It appears that the best version of fafdm is the recently released German blu ray (even though it is basically a glorified patchwork quilt of various sources). Other than the thunder crash still being out of sync, picture wise it is complete.


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Lil Brutto on July 11, 2013, 09:42:53 AM
GBU uses an Italian print seemingly, as all the onscreen title captions for the characters are in Italian. The picture is good, but cropped too closely for more of a 2.5:1 ratio. Audio is excellent.

It is a commonly held belief that MGM used an Italian print due to the Italian onscreen titles. However, the opening credits and end title are in English, the beating scene is the International cut, the sequence where Blondie says, "Sorry, Tuco" is intact, and Tuco yells, "Just a dirty son of a bitch!" instead of " "Sei il figlio di una grandissima puttana!"

I don't know what the explanation is for this. It is indeed a release print (as reel change markers are present) and the color timing is consistent throughout the film so it doesn't look like multiple sources were used.


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: dave jenkins on July 11, 2013, 11:00:36 AM
A version of GBU with the Italian titles for the three characters used to play on U.S. television. I might be mis-remembering this, but it seemed to me they were introduced by their English titles, but supplied with their Italian ones at the end of the picture.


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Lil Brutto on July 11, 2013, 12:03:10 PM
I think you're right. I recall the version on VHS did the same; using a combination of English and Italian titles.


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: cigar joe on July 11, 2013, 04:43:30 PM
ditto I remember that also.


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Sensitive Mule on July 15, 2013, 03:18:44 PM
I just went through and spot compared the LDs for GBU against the original DVD and SE.

The initial LD has Italian captions but is the US international version.
The remastered LD has English captions that were simply subbed into the same transfer. (Same damage marks in video and audio) Has less video noise and overall slightly better color. Also correct framing as the older laser is a bit cropped. Note: Some idiot forgot the English subs on the Italian extra scenes.
The original DVD is the same as the remastered LD but with better picture. 16:9!  However the sound is lossy ac3 which has been EQ'd and scrubbed to be cleaner, thus losing detail and effect.

I'm pretty sure MGM used a International interpositive as their source, which would have had Italian onscreen captions meant to be subbed out for the language of whatever country a print was being made for, just like the dubs.

See what happens when you own 6 copies of GBU alone?  :D


Title: Re: Just dug out my old laserdisc...
Post by: Lil Brutto on July 15, 2013, 06:02:05 PM
I don't think the 1990/93 and 1998 LDs are from the same transfer. The 1990/1993 LD is a release print with reel change markers but the 1998 LD doesn't have any reel change markers. The 1990/1993 LD is also cut; the opening scene as well as the dining scene are significantly shorter. I don't recall the film damage between the LD versions being the same either.