Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => For a Few Dollars More => Topic started by: Jordan Krug on April 20, 2008, 08:59:21 AM



Title: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: Jordan Krug on April 20, 2008, 08:59:21 AM
(http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/5355/girlsscenete6.th.jpg) (http://img383.imageshack.us/my.php?image=girlsscenete6.jpg)


The only thing I've been able to figure out is WHERE and WHEN this scene takes place....WHERE - by looking at the bg of the photos and the shot where Manco gets up -look at the door and the hanging blanket for starters- , and WHEN.... it's just after Mortimer opens the safe and BEFORE Eastwood gets up to steal the money (it's at night judging from the open door behind Indio)...maybe there was another drunk party scene ala fistful where he fooled them into thinking he was drunk? I definitely think this was a real scene, not just behind the scene photos etc....1. Gian volonte seems IN character 2. Manco and Groggy are pointing their guns at each other - remember, earlier that day, Manco slugged Groggy - maybe there was some more tension in this scene? (and Groggy is asleep in the same spot in the wide shot in the film as he is sitting in the photo-and Manco's hat is in the same spot as well) 3. a scene would fit here in the narrative, they're celebrating a successful robbery...




Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: cigar joe on April 20, 2008, 09:13:26 PM
cool thanks for that!


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: marmota-b on April 21, 2008, 02:28:30 AM
Thanks for the observation. O0


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: Le Bon on April 21, 2008, 12:17:16 PM
It certainly seems to all fit in. Nice detective work again Jordan. Well done!!


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: Clinton on April 21, 2008, 01:31:56 PM
(http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/5355/girlsscenete6.th.jpg) (http://img383.imageshack.us/my.php?image=girlsscenete6.jpg)


The only thing I've been able to figure out is WHERE and WHEN this scene takes place....WHERE - by looking at the bg of the photos and the shot where Manco gets up -look at the door and the hanging blanket for starters- , and WHEN.... it's just after Mortimer opens the safe and BEFORE Eastwood gets up to steal the money (it's at night judging from the open door behind Indio)...maybe there was another drunk party scene ala fistful where he fooled them into thinking he was drunk? I definitely think this was a real scene, not just behind the scene photos etc....1. Gian volonte seems IN character 2. Manco and Groggy are pointing their guns at each other - remember, earlier that day, Manco slugged Groggy - maybe there was some more tension in this scene? (and Groggy is asleep in the same spot in the wide shot in the film as he is sitting in the photo-and Manco's hat is in the same spot as well) 3. a scene would fit here in the narrative, they're celebrating a successful robbery...




You are right, well done! Volonte is bringing a girl over to Manco/Eastwood. In the original (6 x 6) photo shown on the lower left you can see (in the foreground) a woman lying facing towards Volonte and you can make out an arm (with a white sleeve) coming around her - obviously Groggy.


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: iceman on April 22, 2008, 01:57:13 AM
You are right, well done! Volonte is bringing a girl over to Manco/Eastwood. In the original (6 x 6) photo shown on the lower left you can see (in the foreground) a woman lying facing towards Volonte and you can make out an arm (with a white sleeve) coming around her - obviously Groggy.

So Volonte has gone and got 3 women..one each for Manco, Groggy and himself??

ICE


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: Le Bon on April 22, 2008, 03:55:25 AM
Here is another photo from this scene. I found this in a german program which account for the cut out look to it. That isn't someone standing to the left it's just another photo that was overlaid. Manco must have had a few drinks. Maybe he's trying to make his peace with Groggy.


(http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/4307/11042007095622pmgx4.jpg)
Shot at 2007-11-05


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: cigar joe on April 22, 2008, 04:47:22 AM
Yea, I agree its not a behind the scenes image, the women all look in costume for sure.  O0


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: Jordan Krug on April 22, 2008, 09:04:30 AM
Hier is another photo from this scene. I found this in a german program which account for the cut out look to it. That isn't someone standing to the left it's just another photo that was overlaid. Manco must have had a few drinks. Maybe he's trying to make his peace with Groggy.


(http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/4307/11042007095622pmgx4.jpg)
Shot at 2007-11-05


Cool - thanks for the new shot! The one other thing about this scene is that Fraying in both his books and his commentary tracks says that there is a slight idea in the film that since the incident with Mortimer's sister, Indio has been *ahem* shall we say "unable to use his pistol" with women....maybe this was a scene that illustrated that more clearly?


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: dave jenkins on January 11, 2012, 11:19:33 AM
Cool - thanks for the new shot! The one other thing about this scene is that Fraying in both his books and his commentary tracks says that there is a slight idea in the film that since the incident with Mortimer's sister, Indio has been *ahem* shall we say "unable to use his pistol" with women....maybe this was a scene that illustrated that more clearly?
Or a scene which contradicted the idea. Ultimately, though, Leone may have decided to present Indio as impotent (per Sir Chris's later reading). In which case, that would explain why the scene was cut.


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 11, 2012, 03:48:16 PM
where is there any evidence for the "impotent Indio" theory?


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: Jordan Krug on January 11, 2012, 07:02:26 PM
where is there any evidence for the "impotent Indio" theory?

I'll have to listen to the commentary again, it's definitely a theory of Frayling's that he discusses on the FAFDM dvd, I think he's basically saying that the woman wanting to kill herself rather than be loved by Indio messed him up psychologically/and that led to some weaknesses in his character, maybe physical. I don't know where the evidence for this is exactly, I'll have to keep the idea in mind next time I watch the film.


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 11, 2012, 07:50:29 PM
I'll have to listen to the commentary again, it's definitely a theory of Frayling's that he discusses on the FAFDM dvd, I think he's basically saying that the woman wanting to kill herself rather than be loved by Indio messed him up psychologically/and that led to some weaknesses in his character, maybe physical. I don't know where the evidence for this is exactly, I'll have to keep the idea in mind next time I watch the film.

yeah, I know Frayling says it -- it's just after Indio's final flashback. (I think it's in Cumbow's book as well, but that thing is a worthless piece of shit). It's just that I don't see any evidence for it in the movie. As much as I love and admire Frayling, I am not gonna believe something like that just because he says it, if I see no evidence of it


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: dave jenkins on January 12, 2012, 01:44:33 PM
It's an inference that I accept. Note that after each time he kills, Indio likes to relax with a smoke (likely Jimson weed). This is cinematic code for post-coital recovery. As he relaxes, he listens to the watch chime and/or has the flashback about the girl. He doesn't seem to have any desire/need for women, and instead gets release by firing his gun. The fact that the girl and the flashback are tied in with his particular kink can lead one, if you are so minded, to speculate that the fact of the girl killing herself instead of her allowing herself to be raped did a real number on Indio's head. You don't have to accept that interpretation, but it's there if you want it and it's not much of a stretch.

Not unexpectedly, the Sergio Leone Encyclopedia has an entry on this very subject:
Quote
Indio also El Indio. The psychotic villain in FAFDM played by Gian Maria Volonte. Some have commented on the substance he frequently smokes. Frayling insists it is marijuana, but a likelier candidate is Jimson weed. How to read his final moments? One interpretation: when he closes his hand around the watch, he is affirming receipt of a prize long sought. Why is the watch, and the memory it evokes, so important to Indio? What is the longing at the heart of his obsession? It would be hard to argue that the dead girl is the chief object of interest; he may not have even known her. It can't be regret, either for what happened to the girl or for his unfulfilled lust. Indio is incapable of regret. The failed rape is the defining moment in Indio's life. He had intended to deliver the girl to la petite mort, but she chose its greater cousin instead. Ever after, Indio has been obsessed with death, following it, watching it in the eyes of those he kills. After this prolonged flirtation, MORTimer, with il Monco officiating, brings Indio to the point of consumation.


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: dave jenkins on January 12, 2012, 03:39:20 PM
(I think it's in Cumbow's book as well, but that thing is a worthless piece of shit).
No it isn't. Did you read his chapter on Morricone?


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 12, 2012, 03:44:23 PM
No it isn't. Did you read his chapter on Morricone?

I read the whole book. Was a painful experience


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: Jordan Krug on January 13, 2012, 07:30:53 AM
It's an inference that I accept. Note that after each time he kills, Indio likes to relax with a smoke (likely Jimson weed). This is cinematic code for post-coital recovery. As he relaxes, he listens to the watch chime and/or has the flashback about the girl. He doesn't seem to have any desire/need for women, and instead gets release by firing his gun. The fact that the girl and the flashback are tied in with his particular kink can lead one, if you are so minded, to speculate that the fact of the girl killing herself instead of her allowing herself to be raped did a real number on Indio's head. You don't have to accept that interpretation, but it's there if you want it and it's not much of a stretch.

Not unexpectedly, the Sergio Leone Encyclopedia has an entry on this very subject:

Well said.


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 13, 2012, 08:06:42 AM
He doesn't seem to have any desire/need for women, and instead gets release by firing his gun.

I wouldn't read too much into that. None of Leone's characters seem to have much time for women (with the exception of Ramon Rojo*). This is a world where people are preoccupied with killing and making money. As we know, Leone shot love scenes with TMWNN character in both FAFDM and GBU, but cut 'em (and it's good he did). But we don't think TMWNN is impotent, do we? Besides, we don't know what happens in the scenes of Indio's gang with the chicks in Agua Caliente (ie. the topic of this thread), but if it's just the gang partying with babes, then I guess Indio does have time for 'em, eh?


 (*Which reminds me, while recently reading through some old FOD threads, I saw that someone had this theory that Ramon also was impotent and merely used Marisol as a trophy, perhaps to compensate and show he was indeed macho (eg. we see him passionately kissing her in front of all the men... before having then men take her away to the small house). This is another one of those theories that cracks me the hell up: some people just have too much time on their hands, and try to read way too much into the hellzapoppin school of cinema  ;)



Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 13, 2012, 08:43:05 AM
this all reminds me of something I heard on a podcast with Frayling: (and I have certainly heard and/or read him say similar things other times; I am just quoting this podcast cuz I happen to have it in front of me now): The point I'd like to emphasize is in yellow

"Leone felt that Westerns had got a bit talky; there was too much talking in them; he liked Westerns where Rin Tin Tin did all the thinking, you know: old-fashioned Westerns where (there was) lots and lots of action and not too much talk.
He didn't like psychology, Freudian Westerns got on his nerves. Films like The Left-Handed Gun with Paul Newman, where, you feel if there'd been a social worker around, Billy the Kid would never have happened. Films like that, he didn't like. He liked films where, a lot of shooting, a lot of riding, a lot of action, a lot of landscape."


Now, whether or not the "Impotent Indio" theory is correct, I have a question for anyone that wants to take a stab at it: Assuming Frayling is correct about Leone's dislike for "Freudian Westerns": Does the whole "Indio tormented by the memory of a rape gone bad" theme conflict with that? Or do you feel that Frayling is wrong?
And come to think of it, perhaps you can ask a similar question, (though probably to a much lesser extent), RE: Joe's cryptic "I knew someone like you once and there was no one there to help" response to Marisol in FOD?


p.s. if anyone is interested in this podcast: I bought it on iTunes; it's officially categorized as an "Audiobook," (not a podcast), and is available for $1.95). it's from an interview Frayling did with on NPR's "Fresh Air" program, hosted by Terry Gross.
The official name of the file is "Fresh Air, Christopher Frayling, August 1, 2005." It is more than 50 minutes long, and over 40 minutes of it is the Frayling interview, which is all about Leone. I absolutely love listening to/watching/reading everything by Frayling, so I'd highly recommend you buy it  O0




Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: Stern on January 13, 2012, 12:24:24 PM
RE: Joe's cryptic "I knew someone like you once and there was no one there to help" response to Marisol in FOD?

It is cryptic indeed, especially because it does not fit into the film. I do not know the answer, although I wonder about it. A possible theory: One of the returning ideas of Leone is the impossibility to leave the pictured world: the men trying to escape over the river in the massacre scene is shot by Ramón, Maureen trying to fly away with the bird cant and is shot by Frank, even Deborah, leaving with the train to “Hollywood” returns to her beginning, we are not told why. Marisol only managed to leave, and with the help of Joe. Why?


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: stanton on January 13, 2012, 12:40:01 PM
RE: Joe's cryptic "I knew someone like you once and there was no one there to help" response to Marisol in FOD?


This pretty conventional line is the biggest mistake Leone made in FOD. Apart from Eastwood not keeping the money.

A similar bad dialogue in FaFDM in which Eastwood talks about retiring on a farm. Shows that Leone still wasn't exactly sure about what he was achieving.



Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: drinkanddestroy on January 13, 2012, 01:15:48 PM
This pretty conventional line is the biggest mistake Leone made in FOD. Apart from Eastwood not keeping the money.

A similar bad dialogue in FaFDM in which Eastwood talks about retiring on a farm. Shows that Leone still wasn't exactly sure about what he was achieving.



Again, my question is: can that line by Joe, and especially Indio and his flashbacks, be reconciled with what Frayling says was Leone's dislike for "Freudian Westerns"? Ie. is FAFDM (and to a lesser extent, FOD) a "Freudian Western"?


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: noodles_leone on January 13, 2012, 04:39:43 PM
Note that after each time he kills, Indio likes to relax with a smoke (likely Jimson weed). This is cinematic code for post-coital recovery.
You mean like... gay subtext?


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: stanton on January 14, 2012, 02:49:42 AM
Again, my question is: can that line by Joe, and especially Indio and his flashbacks, be reconciled with what Frayling says was Leone's dislike for "Freudian Westerns"? Ie. is FAFDM (and to a lesser extent, FOD) a "Freudian Western"?

Basically Leones westerns are the opposite of the psychological westerns of the previous 15 years. But these "adult" westerns (The Left Handed Gun may be the most extreme example) were only a minority, while most of the westerns were still dealing with the usual stereotypes.

Leone had a post modern approach towards the genre. Most of his characters, and especially the Eastwoods roles, are variations of certain stereotypes, but Leone modified the stereotypes to such an extent that his films felt new in a very radical way. And the modernism of his new kind of hero, who is only interested in money in an abstract way, makes such old fashioned and extremely conventional lines (like the 2 mentioned above) sound pretty odd.
But in GBU Leone started to contrast the stereotyped archetypes of Good and Bad with fully fleshed out character.
Indio lies somewhere between the simple FOD baddie Ramon and the complex Tuco. But even if Leone wasn't interested in psychologically complex characters at that time, he still worked with screenplay writers who may brought these things in his films, and sometimes things like a gay subtext or the possibility of impotent heroes may be brought unconsciously by filmmakers into their films.

In the end it is open for interpretation. Indio isn't obviously shown as impotent due to a psychological trauma, but the possibility of Jenkins interpretation is definitely there.


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: Stern on January 14, 2012, 06:14:11 AM

A similar bad dialogue in FaFDM in which Eastwood talks about retiring on a farm. Shows that Leone still wasn't exactly sure about what he was achieving.



I think you are very right, as there is no reasonable explanation. I am a little bit endangered by the “retiring on a farm” as there is a parallel action in the film. Tomaso also “retired”, (You used the reward that you got... to start raising a family.) Tomaso is shown as a traitor, killed even by El Indio an even damned by heaven (see the figure of Jesus pointing him even in his dead to hell). Monco is shown as the winner. So again most likely you are right and Leone did not have a straight concept at this early stage of his carrier.


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: dave jenkins on January 14, 2012, 02:50:51 PM
You mean like... gay subtext?
Not necessarily. It's a device that works with any orientation.

But now that you mention it, Indio DOES like to hang with dudes a lot . . .  ;)


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: dave jenkins on January 14, 2012, 03:01:36 PM
Now, whether or not the "Impotent Indio" theory is correct, I have a question for anyone that wants to take a stab at it: Assuming Frayling is correct about Leone's dislike for "Freudian Westerns": Does the whole "Indio tormented by the memory of a rape gone bad" theme conflict with that?
No, because the Freudian reading isn't required by the text/film. Simon Oakland doesn't show up at the end and offer an explanation that we are expected to accept. But a Freudian reading isn't excluded (just as we are free to place Jungian, Marxian, or Structuralist interpretations on the material if we're so minded). The Lion did his part (slaying the talk-centered Western), now he leaves it to the jackals to fight over the pickings.


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: stanton on January 15, 2012, 02:30:29 AM
Not necessarily. It's a device that works with any orientation.

But now that you mention it, Indio DOES like to hang with dudes a lot . . .  ;)

Ha ha, yes he does, and I always thought it was a big mistake that Blondie left Tuco at the end of GBU instead of riding with him into the sunset and in a carefree future ...


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: marmota-b on January 16, 2012, 02:44:15 AM
Ha ha, yes he does, and I always thought it was a big mistake that Blondie left Tuco at the end of GBU instead of riding with him into the sunset and in a carefree future ...

Whatever fun you have reading into it, no, it was not a mistake. It would not be the same film.


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: stanton on January 16, 2012, 04:08:06 AM
Whatever fun you have reading into it, no, it was not a mistake. It would not be the same film.

Well, yes, of course ... it was ... hmmm.. only a joke ... wasn't it?


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: Jordan Krug on June 30, 2015, 07:33:19 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/B1gj5Cy.jpg)

New pic from this deleted scene appeared on eBay recently.


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: dave jenkins on June 30, 2015, 08:28:55 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/B1gj5Cy.jpg)

New pic from this deleted scene appeared on eBay recently.
Great! And suddenly . . . this thread is back on topic!


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: Le Bon on April 21, 2017, 03:58:36 PM
(https://2-t.imgbox.com/WlDnyvAS.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/WlDnyvAS) (https://4-t.imgbox.com/7MWgLWPF.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/7MWgLWPF) (https://5-t.imgbox.com/UPwaqDkO.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/UPwaqDkO) (https://6-t.imgbox.com/dV7S874t.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/dV7S874t) (https://8-t.imgbox.com/v9dGcOBn.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/v9dGcOBn) (https://9-t.imgbox.com/SNXgEwiF.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/SNXgEwiF) (https://4-t.imgbox.com/8KNRYzqR.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/8KNRYzqR) (https://5-t.imgbox.com/wwEO5P6l.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/wwEO5P6l) (https://9-t.imgbox.com/z80SG0oZ.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/z80SG0oZ)

I Recently found some great new images from this scene. I think I have tried to put them in what I believe is the right order.
Indio enters the room and goes over to the girl with one of the gang members. Then he is with another girl looking out by the door  and is seen sitting on the floor with her. The last two pics seem to show them sleeping. Manco is on the left of pic 8 which matches up with previously posted stills on this thread.


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: cigar joe on April 21, 2017, 04:05:53 PM
Nice.


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: Jordan Krug on April 21, 2017, 08:23:54 PM
Amazing! Thanks for sharing!


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: Novecento on April 22, 2017, 09:20:02 PM
Yes - thanks

I think I'd have put #2 and #3 the other way around though.


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: philippe on May 11, 2017, 01:10:46 AM
Thank you!  O0

interresting "party" of the gang..... lost scene or maybe cut by Leone ::)


Title: Re: Mystery of the "Girls in Agua Calente" not quite solved...but figured out
Post by: cigar joe on May 11, 2017, 03:52:11 AM
I like the rifle "coat rack."