Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => Once Upon A Time In The West => Topic started by: The clint on April 24, 2008, 06:17:43 AM

Title: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: The clint on April 24, 2008, 06:17:43 AM
Does anyone know whether the 175 minute cut was the cut released in Italy in 1968 or was it a cut cobbled together later on, perhaps for a re-release or just the DVD of the movie? I've always been a bit confused about this subject.
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: SeanSeanSean on April 27, 2008, 01:44:40 PM
Does anyone know whether the 175 minute cut was the cut released in Italy in 1968 or was it a cut cobbled together later on, perhaps for a re-release or just the DVD of the movie? I've always been a bit confused about this subject.
I have the 165 min. box set. So, what more do we see in the extra 10 minutes?
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: Le Bon on April 28, 2008, 02:24:10 AM
They are mostly alternate and extra takes of existing scenes with more close ups in the opening scene, and Jill entering the way station and a few others. And theres the scene where Mortons chess piece falls over.
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: Jordan Krug on April 28, 2008, 01:20:44 PM
here's a list :

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/dvdcompare/onceuponatimeintheest/ouatitw-ext.txt
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: The clint on September 13, 2008, 12:24:38 PM
So does anyone know, whether the 175 minute version was the one that premiered in Italy in 1968 or not?
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: piribiriboing on September 22, 2008, 02:04:55 PM
No, the CVC is the 1990-92 restoration by Claver Salizzato. In addition it has at least Harmonica raising after the gunfight at Cattle Corner. Not sure about other scenes.
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: Novecento on May 12, 2009, 06:11:44 AM
here's a list :

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/dvdcompare/onceuponatimeintheest/ouatitw-ext.txt


I have a copy of the Italian DVD (http://www.ibs.it/dvd/8032442214679/henry-fonda-charles-bronson-claudia-cardinale-paolo/c-era-una-volta-il.html) and it does not seem to contain this scene:

Cheyenne's train surprise attack:
- Morton noticing the metal Jester chess piece of his desk shaking from the train's movement, it falls over and he quickly grabs it upright so as not to wake Frank's men.


I have seen screenshots of this scene so I know it exists but I was quite disappointed to find it not included here.
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: stanton on May 12, 2009, 12:42:56 PM
Watch again. It's at 1:30:30

Apart from the scene with Harmonica rising at the railway station, this was the only really new piece in the long version.
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: Novecento on May 13, 2009, 10:05:11 AM
I most certainly will.

Guess I must have just missed it when I watched it. I'll keep you posted.
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: Novecento on June 01, 2009, 05:27:21 PM
Watch again. It's at 1:30:30

Just checked. It is definitely not included on my Italian DVD (http://www.ibs.it/dvd/8032442214679/henry-fonda-charles-bronson-claudia-cardinale-paolo/c-era-una-volta-il.html)
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: The Peacemaker on June 02, 2009, 12:00:51 PM
Does anyone know where stills of the extra scenes in the Italian print can be found? I'm dying to see the sequence with Morton and the chess piece.
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: Novecento on June 02, 2009, 01:43:02 PM
No, the CVC is the 1990-92 restoration by Claver Salizzato. In addition it has at least Harmonica raising after the gunfight at Cattle Corner. Not sure about other scenes.

Just checked. It is definitely not included on my Italian DVD (http://www.ibs.it/dvd/8032442214679/henry-fonda-charles-bronson-claudia-cardinale-paolo/c-era-una-volta-il.html)

Right, I am assuming that my DVD of  the "versione alternativa" is the same "versione integrale" restored by Salizzato. This means that the Morton chess piece scene comes from elsewhere.

There is a supposedly complete version of the movie, by a guy going under the name of Leonenut, that can be accessed here: http://fanedit.org/341/.
The following two claims are made: "Includes all the extended Italian scenes & shots"; "includes some unique shots from the shorter version too".

I will post some more information on how this compares to Salizatto's version once I have watched it.
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: The Peacemaker on June 02, 2009, 04:24:07 PM
Right, I am assuming that my DVD of  the "versione alternativa" is the same "versione integrale" restored by Salizzato. This means that the Morton chess piece scene comes from elsewhere.

There is a supposedly complete version of the movie, by a guy going under the name of Leonenut, that can be accessed here: http://fanedit.org/341/.
The following two claims are made: "Includes all the extended Italian scenes & shots"; "includes some unique shots from the shorter version too".

I will post some more information on how this compares to Salizatto's version once I have watched it.

I'm trying to download the movie from the link but when I download it through rapidshare I can't open the file.
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: stanton on June 03, 2009, 01:07:40 AM
Just checked. It is definitely not included on my Italian DVD (http://www.ibs.it/dvd/8032442214679/henry-fonda-charles-bronson-claudia-cardinale-paolo/c-era-una-volta-il.html)

Then check the runtime. The runtime of mine is 2:50:04. It contains 2 small interviews with Leone and Cardinale.

Mine is definitely not the the boot version by this Leonenut guy, which only adds a few sec. from the US DVD to the long cut. But the cover of mine was a different one. But it's hard to believe that there are now 2 different "long" cuts out in Italy.

If your runtime is identical, the chess parts must be there. Actually these aren't chess figures but small tin soldiers, so maybe that's the reason for the confusion.

And here you can see stills of the added material, amongst them also several stills from the tin soldiers scene (at 1:25:15):

http://www.schnittberichte.com/schnittbericht.php?ID=4208

It's in German, but it shows all the differences between the both versions.
The 9 sec scene at 2:30:15 is not in the long version.

The cover of this release is also shown at the bottom.
And to avoid further mish-mash: the backcover states a runtime of 175 min, but the DVD has actually 170 min in Pal, which corresponds to a 177 min theatrical runtime.

Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: Novecento on June 03, 2009, 06:13:42 AM
Mine is definitely not the the boot version by this Leonenut guy, which only adds a few sec. from the US DVD to the long cut. But the cover of mine was a different one. But it's hard to believe that there are now 2 different "long" cuts out in Italy.

Ok, I've figured this out I think. I have not fully compared the two all the way through but my "versione alternativa" appears to be the same as the Paramount release except it has the different browner hue to it (nicely restored) and most significantly has the correct end music with Jill's America played out in full  :).

This means that my memories of different shots/angles in my Italian version seem to be mistaken and that I have not seen any of the different takes in the 175min version. I guess I must just appreciate  different things about the movie every time I watch it because I certainly remember seeing new shots of Jill in the buggy which, when I compare the two DVDs now, are identical.
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: stanton on June 03, 2009, 09:00:06 AM
Ok, I've figured this out I think. I have not fully compared the two all the way through but my "versione alternativa" appears to be the same as the Paramount release except it has the different browner hue to it (nicely restored) and most significantly has the correct end music with Jill's America played out in full  :).

This means that my memories of different shots/angles in my Italian version seem to be mistaken and that I have not seen any of the different takes in the 175min version. I guess I must just appreciate  different things about the movie every time I watch it because I certainly remember seeing new shots of Jill in the buggy which, when I compare the two DVDs now, are identical.

Then, Novecento, how long is your version,? And is the "Harmonica rising scene in it?
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: Novecento on June 03, 2009, 09:29:24 AM
Then, Novecento, how long is your version,?

The place I bought it from has it incorrectly listed as 175min. I've just checked the back of the case which says 160min ca. and this is what it runs as on my player (i.e. roughly the same as the Paramount PAL release give or take about a minute).

And is the "Harmonica rising scene in it?

Yes, it seems essentially to be the same as the Paramount version except that the credits are different, the color is different and the end music is correct.

I've just had a thought.... I wonder how this Italian DVD (released 2007 with remastered audio and video) compares to the Scorsese restoration that was being done in Italy and is doing the circuits? Could they be the same??
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: Cusser on June 03, 2009, 08:00:00 PM
Peacemaker - about 10 years ago someone posted a Quicktime movie of the chess piece segment, and I saved the file. Harmonica was tied up on the train, the vibration causes the chess piece to fall, and Morton is visibly upset, tries to right the chess man, a parallel to his own trouble standing.  I have E-mailed the QT file to you, about 2.5MB, maybe you can make it work.
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: The Peacemaker on June 04, 2009, 11:30:02 AM
Peacemaker - about 10 years ago someone posted a Quicktime movie of the chess piece segment, and I saved the file. Harmonica was tied up on the train, the vibration causes the chess piece to fall, and Morton is visibly upset, tries to right the chess man, a parallel to his own trouble standing.  I have E-mailed the QT file to you, about 2.5MB, maybe you can make it work.

Thank you very much for the email!

I really enjoyed that clip including the slightly altered version of Morton's theme ( sounds like a different instrument substituting for the piano riff ).

Would like to see the whole version though, and the chess piece scene in higher quality (I'm greedy I know   ;) )
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: Cusser on June 04, 2009, 07:58:40 PM
Funny thing, I'm not currently able to view that .qt file, I do get the audio.  I'm not very good on these #$%^*(&%#$%^&&$ computers !!!
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: The Peacemaker on June 04, 2009, 08:24:10 PM
Then download jdownloader to access the rapidshare files from the internet with the *.dlc file.

That is where my problem lies.

I don't know how to download that jdownloader thing and what to do afterwards.
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: Groggy on June 05, 2009, 07:32:43 AM
So I take that the scene where Morton and Harmonica argue whilst on the train is lost?
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: stanton on August 16, 2018, 11:39:18 AM
Bringing this thread back to life I want try to find out which version was really released in 1968 in Italy.

A guy from Germany claims that he watched in the 80s in Bologna in a theatre (not at a festival) the 175 min version of OUTW. An interesting point is that this version did not include the Rising scene, hence the 175 min runtime instead of the 177 min runtime of the in Italy released long version. These 175 min would now respond to the 4869 meters as once documented on the Anica.it website, the length documented on the pre-release censorship card.

Unfortunately many of these anica.it runtimes are different to those of the now as uncut believed versions, so these data are not too reliable.

Question is now how it is possible to find out the original runtime of the Italian theatrical version. Was it these 175 min version, or the 165/168 min version which was released elsewhere?
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: Jordan Krug on August 22, 2018, 07:34:54 AM
Bringing this thread back to life I want try to find out which version was really released in 1968 in Italy.

A guy from Germany claims that he watched in the 80s in Bologna in a theatre (not at a festival) the 175 min version of OUTW. An interesting point is that this version did not include the Rising scene, hence the 175 min runtime instead of the 177 min runtime of the in Italy released long version. These 175 min would now respond to the 4869 meters as once documented on the Anica.it website, the length documented on the pre-release censorship card.

Unfortunately many of these anica.it runtimes are different to those of the now as uncut believed versions, so these data are not too reliable.

Question is now how it is possible to find out the original runtime of the Italian theatrical version. Was it these 175 min version, or the 165/168 min version which was released elsewhere?

Not sure if you've had a chance to read this, here are some of my thoughts and observations about the current cuts that are out there and what was originally released, along with some video evidence to back up what I'm saying. 

https://www.hometheaterforum.com/community/posts/4495452/

Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: stanton on August 22, 2018, 09:08:36 AM
Of curse, I knew that all, you even quoted me with my thoughts why the Rising Scene is really a bummer.

And I still think that the original Italian theatrical version is identical to the German version, and that 1987 VHS speaks for that, but this German guy thinks that the 175 min version he watched in Bologna is the original. I hoped that the Italians board members could try to shed light on this.

Btw the newer Italian discs with a 165 min runtime contain the Scorsese version, not the Paramount version?
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: Jordan Krug on August 22, 2018, 12:17:33 PM
Of curse, I knew that all, you even quoted me with my thoughts why the Rising Scene is really a bummer.

And I still think that the original Italian theatrical version is identical to the German version, and that 1987 VHS speaks for that, but this German guy thinks that the 175 min version he watched in Bologna is the original. I hoped that the Italians board members could try to shed light on this.

Btw the newer Italian discs with a 165 min runtime contain the Scorsese version, not the Paramount version?

It's certainly possible that the very first release of OATITW in Italy was a longer version...we've seen that has been the case with FAFDM and GBU...in the case of GBU there were multiple cuts and recuts of the film over the years. Perhaps the situation is similar to GBU, there WAS a longer Italian cut, and then over the years they shortened it to match the "international" version. Unfortunately, unlike in the case of GBU, there are no original Italian prints in private hands in North America that we know of to compare...just the German print.  The longer dvd version had to come from somewhere...I doubt they went back to dailies to make a new cut without some sort of reference, or even newly re-assembled a workprint cut. They must have already had a print. Perhaps the longer version WAS the release version in early 1968...then once the international prints were prepared that became the de-facto version everywhere. Thanks for sharing the German guy's comments.
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: stanton on August 23, 2018, 03:18:56 AM
I remember at least that when the 178 min version was first shown in Germany (on TV) there was no talk about a DC, but my paper announced it as a private copy found at Leone's home.
And in this interview Leone confirms that a longer version was in his possession. But then, the McBain Hunting scene is the same in all versions, and always the same in all existing versions.

And in De Fornari's book the runtime of the Italian Version is also given with 167 min. (which then includes the longer exit credits compared to the 165 min)

Ohh, and Board member Leonardo has confirmed to me that he also saw the Rising scene for the first time in the 90s, that it was definitely not part of the release version.
Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: Cusser on August 23, 2018, 06:56:42 AM
Ohh, and Board member Leonardo has confirmed to me that he also saw the Rising scene for the first time in the 90s, that it was definitely not part of the release version.

I saw this film upon first release in Arizona in 1969; it was not released as a major film either, played at small theaters only.  There was no scene of Harmonica rising.

In 1985, an "art film" theater in Tempe AZ showed the restored version; they passed out sheets/flyers detailing what the differences in this cut and the original US release were, I'm going to look for that and scan that, and see if I can attach somehow to this board (within a few weeks).

Title: Re: Italian CVC 175 minute version, original or latter day tinkering?
Post by: stanton on August 23, 2018, 07:32:13 AM
I saw this film upon first release in Arizona in 1969; it was not released as a major film either, played at small theaters only.  There was no scene of Harmonica rising.

In 1985, an "art film" theater in Tempe AZ showed the restored version; they passed out sheets/flyers detailing what the differences in this cut and the original US release were, I'm going to look for that and scan that, and see if I can attach somehow to this board (within a few weeks).

Cusser you can find detailed info about the versions shown in the USA here:

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=10564.0

And also how it could happen that the Paramount master, used worldwide apart from Italy for all Homevideo releases, has a few unnecessary problems.