Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => For a Few Dollars More => Topic started by: amorin on May 11, 2008, 11:16:05 AM



Title: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: amorin on May 11, 2008, 11:16:05 AM
Here is something strange I have noticed... In the English version of the scene where Mortimer discusses security issues with the director of the bank of El Paso, the director claims that only a fool would try to rob his bank... to which Mortimer adds: or a complete madman... Now, in the French version I own, the translation of Mortimer's reply is: *... ou un drogue*, that is: *... or a drug addict*, most probably referring to Indio's habit of smoking marijuana... I wonder why the English and French versions differ like that... Any thoughts?  :D


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: dave jenkins on May 11, 2008, 02:52:03 PM
Different points of emphasis? Perhaps Indio is both a madman AND a drug addict, and in Anglo-Saxon culture madness is seen as the greater horror. The effete French, on the other hand, are more repelled by substance abuse.


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: marmota-b on May 12, 2008, 06:18:19 AM
As usual, I'd love to know what's in the original...


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: dave jenkins on May 12, 2008, 07:43:45 AM
Do you mean the Italian dub? With Leone, there is no "original" language because the films were intended from the very beginning to go out internationally in a variety of languages.


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: Tuco the ugly on May 12, 2008, 07:49:59 AM
Different points of emphasis? Perhaps Indio is both a madman AND a drug addict, and in Anglo-Saxon culture madness is seen as the greater horror. The effete French, on the other hand, are more repelled by substance abuse.

I'd like to know how did you get to this?


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: marmota-b on May 12, 2008, 10:24:22 AM
Do you mean the Italian dub? With Leone, there is no "original" language because the films were intended from the very beginning to go out internationally in a variety of languages.

OK, I mean Italian. The writers were Italian, weren't they?


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: dave jenkins on May 12, 2008, 05:52:30 PM
I'd like to know how did you get to this?
Notice that the word "perhaps" renders the entire statement conjectural. Also consider the possibility that it was meant as a provocation.


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: dave jenkins on May 12, 2008, 05:57:40 PM
OK, I mean Italian. The writers were Italian, weren't they?
True, but irrelevant. Screenplays are necessary for the creation of feature films, but they have no special status. They are by their very nature provisional. A film is not an adaptation of a screenplay, neither is a screenplay a film's Ur-text. The film itself is the Ur-text.


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: marmota-b on May 13, 2008, 10:34:10 AM
Consider me an ignorant, then. I stop asking questions.


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: dave jenkins on May 13, 2008, 05:48:35 PM
 ??? I wasn't trying to belittle you. I'm just trying to insist on certain distinctions that don't usually get applied but which should operate when the subject is Leone.


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: Angel Eyes Jr. on May 13, 2008, 11:02:46 PM
Being an addict may have created his becoming a madman...or perhaps he is a madman who enjoys being an addict.  I think he is both a madman AND a drug addict...among other things. 


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: Dirty Rat on May 14, 2008, 02:41:29 AM
I believe that Indio is a madman and that Leone intended for it to be interpreted that way. I then think that the idea of him smoking a bit of weed enhanced the 'wickedness'* about him  particularly when you consider that we first see him having a toke after shooting the family who grassed him in in the first place.
Accompanied with the music (strings?) and the fact that he really gesticulates the motion that he is desperate for one really establishes what he's like.

I don't however think that he is supposed to be, or comes across as a drug addict. I think he is bordering on the insane and a little smoke every now and again (like when you've murdered someone) chills him down. Who knows what inspired Leone to include this in his character and the film, it is quite strange for the time that the film was made and when the film set. I remember Frayling talking about this is in the extras.

* I know that smoking weed isn't wicked but it's prop that works in the film for the audience and could help to portray the idea of 'evil' or 'madness'

To summarise my point, I think that the use of drug addict in the French dub is an oversight or fault in the translation process



Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: dave jenkins on May 14, 2008, 03:23:50 AM
Cigar Joe has spoken to this point in another thread, where he plausibly suggests that the drug in question is Jimson Weed (sometimes known as "loco weed"). Apparently, the abuse of this substance could lead to actual madness.


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: cigar joe on May 14, 2008, 04:20:59 AM
Its hard to say since its never mentioned what it is by name. But here is the dope on Jimson weed.   8) O0


Overview: Jimson weed is a common name for a plant known botanically as Datura stramonium, which has been used as a medicine and intoxicant for centuries. The plant's main ingredients are the belladonna alkaloids atropine and scopolamine. Since Jimson weed is native to much of the U.S. (from New England to Texas), it's most often used by young people in those areas unfamiliar with its reputation and unprepared for its side effects.

Street Names: Thornapple, stinkweed, locoweed

Appearance: Jimson weed can reach a height of 5 feet, bearing white flowers and prickly seed pods that split open when ripe, usually in fall.

Effects: The phrase "Red as a beet, dry as a bone, blind as a bat, mad as a hatter" has been used to describe Jimson's effects, and it does a good job of summing them up. All parts of the plant are toxic, so pleasant effects are limited -- a big reason the plant is used only by novices. Atropine and scopolamine block the neurotransmitter acetylcholine, causing dry mouth, dilated pupils, high temperature (but reduced sweating), and blurred vision. Psychological effects include confusion, euphoria, and delirium.

Side Effects/Risks: Potential for accidental poisoning increases with higher doses. Symptoms include incoherent speech, impaired coordination; rapid heart beat; and dry, flushed or hot skin. In extreme cases, users can experience seizures, intense visual or auditory hallucinations, or cardiac arrest. A Jimson weed overdose should be considered potentially serious and medical intervention sought.


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: dave jenkins on May 14, 2008, 04:41:12 AM
Thanks, Joe. Notice that one of the side-effects is hallucinations. Elsewhere I have argued that those are what Indio experiences in the "flashbacks."


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: sargatanas on May 14, 2008, 04:47:40 AM
the madman found time to smoke jimson listen to the chimes have a  draw. what a guy   8)
canibus ?  :-[  wouldn't that stuff impend on his edge w/ indio's quicks draw ?


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: Tuco the ugly on May 14, 2008, 05:03:03 AM
Hm, but how did you come to this Jimson weed, cj? Why do you think Indio had that rolled in his yellow cigars?


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: cigar joe on May 14, 2008, 05:10:02 AM
Well, I don't want to give myself away,  ;) but from personal experiments lets say I don't think it was just cannabis, Indio would be more laid back and asking Nino for more nachos, could be a mix mabye of cannabis & jimson.


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: Tuco the ugly on May 14, 2008, 05:18:40 AM
Well, I don't want to give myself away,  ;) but from personal experiments lets say I don't think it was just cannabis, Indio would be more laid back and asking Nino for more nachos, could be a mix maybe of cannabis & jimson.

Hehe, fair enough my friend, fair enough. ;)

This is very interesting, but, I have one more question - Why the yellow paper? Does it go specifically with JW?

I now remember Paul McCrane's character from ''Robocop'' smoking some similar yellow shit, although I'm sure that had more to do with chemistry than with natural substances.

BTW, speaking of smoking various plants, and asking for more nachos, this is bloody true. The only thing I ever experienced during these short lived smoking sessions was hunger. Nothing more. But then again, I was never a fan of the stuff.


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: marmota-b on May 14, 2008, 06:08:18 AM
??? I wasn't trying to belittle you.

I really don't think you did. That's the problem of written form. I just decided to stop asking questions and do some other things more important for me at the moment... like to eat something. ;D The first sentence was sort of a joke. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I suppose I should have added a smiley.


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: dave jenkins on May 14, 2008, 07:02:35 AM
I just decided to stop asking questions and do some other things more important for me at the moment... like to eat something. ;D
When you put it that way, it makes perfect sense. O0


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: moviesceleton on May 14, 2008, 10:05:41 AM
The effects of Jimson Weed sound right but the side effects don't. It sounds like Indio should feel very sick after smoking it. And the text (where is it from, BTW?) says: "the plant is used only by novices" which suggest that only youngsters that don't have real dope in their hands would smoke it.


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: dave jenkins on May 14, 2008, 02:31:42 PM
In fact, the reason it is used is that it grows naturally and in abundance. The Jamestown settlers were the first to abuse it. As for side effects, Indio is obviously immune.

More here: http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=2832.0


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: cigar joe on May 14, 2008, 10:12:10 PM
Its not yellow paper its corn husks, Mexicans rolled the cigarettes in corn husks


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: Dirty Rat on May 15, 2008, 05:38:52 AM
Very interesting but I'm still not 100% convinced


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: Tuco the ugly on May 15, 2008, 07:19:29 AM
Its not yellow paper its corn husks, Mexicans rolled the cigarettes in corn husks

LOL! I didn't know this, but it must be a joke, right? ;D

I've heard only of children smoking various parts of corn. Like in the country, when they're not grown enough to smoke real cigarettes in front of adults, they hide and smoke corn silk or other parts of the plant secretly, pretending to be older.

As a matter of fact, that's a symbol of being a greenhorn. When someone is unexperienced in something, you say to him: ''Easy there boy, that's not corn mustache you're smoking!''


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: cigar joe on May 15, 2008, 08:17:51 AM
No, its not a joke poor Mexicans rolled tobacco cigarettes in traditional cornhusks when they couldn't get paper.

Drop down to page 4:

http://tobaccodocuments.org/lor/81051625-1662.html


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: Tuco the ugly on May 15, 2008, 08:48:28 AM
Hahaha, this is great! Thanks cj! O0 8) ;D


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: sargatanas on May 23, 2008, 12:43:39 AM
  

There is a mnemonic device for the physiological effects of datura/atropine intoxication: "blind as a bat, mad as a hatter, red as a beet, hot as hell, dry as a bone, the bowel and bladder lose their tone, and the heart runs alone." Another rhyme describing its effects is, "Can't see, can't spit, can't pee, can't shit."




Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: sargatanas on May 23, 2008, 02:03:38 AM
The effects of Jimson Weed sound right but the side effects don't. It sounds like Indio should feel very sick after smoking it. And the text (where is it from, BTW?) says: "the plant is used only by novices" which suggest that only youngsters that don't have real dope in their hands would smoke it.

There is a mnemonic device for the physiological effects of datura/atropine intoxication: "blind as a bat, mad as a hatter, red as a beet, hot as hell, dry as a bone, the bowel and bladder lose their tone, and the heart runs alone." Another rhyme describing its effects is, "Can't see, can't spit, can't pee, can't shit."



Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: The Firecracker on June 04, 2008, 10:37:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BkIngb0dwM


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: Atlas2112 on June 04, 2008, 11:23:38 PM
 ;D ;D ;D

who makes this stuff?


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: cigar joe on June 05, 2008, 04:15:28 AM
people with a lot of time on their hands.


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: sargatanas on June 05, 2008, 04:43:32 AM
people with a lot of time on their hands.
LOL  O0


Title: Re: Indio: Madman or drug addict?
Post by: Tuco the ugly on June 05, 2008, 04:34:09 PM
This is funny stuff, creative guy.