Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => Duck, You Sucker => Topic started by: Beastwood on July 12, 2008, 07:42:57 PM



Title: How good is DYS?
Post by: Beastwood on July 12, 2008, 07:42:57 PM
I mean, of course I'm going to watch it no matter what.

I'm just wondering what to expect (without giving too much away of course).


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: BeauButabi on July 12, 2008, 09:49:18 PM
The first time I watched it I thought it was pretty entertaining and just a fun movie to watch, the second time I saw it I thought it was even more fun than the first time and also realised how brilliant it all was. Left me pretty blown away.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: cigar joe on July 13, 2008, 06:01:15 AM
It starts off fun like GBU and then gets more serious. Its a more mature film than the "dollars" trilogy.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Groggy on July 13, 2008, 08:04:53 AM
I mean, of course I'm going to watch it no matter what.

I'm just wondering what to expect (without giving too much away of course).

Depends. I assume you're watching the 155-minute version?

The general assessment already given is pretty good. But do not watch any of the shorter versions. They are horrendous compared to the director's cut.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: moviesceleton on July 13, 2008, 08:07:42 AM
I wasn't blown away by it, I think it's a bit inconsistent. But that's just my opinion, and after one viewing. There are members here who think it's Leone's best. Watch it ASAP!


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Groggy on July 13, 2008, 08:51:32 AM
I wasn't blown away by it, I think it's a bit inconsistent. But that's just my opinion, and after one viewing. There are members here who think it's Leone's best. Watch it ASAP!

I'd never make that argument, it has a lot of flaws, but it's still a great movie when you consider the whole.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Ben Tyreen on July 14, 2008, 01:02:32 AM
 It's the type of movie that grows on you with repeated viewings.  First time I saw it I thought it was a good movie, maybe chuckled at the music.  Second time around, everything starts to click and from there on you're cruising.  So I agree with BeauButabi. O0


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: dave jenkins on July 14, 2008, 01:50:27 PM
It's the type of movie that grows on you with repeated viewings.  First time I saw it I thought it was a good movie, maybe chuckled at the music.  Second time around, everything starts to click and from there on you're cruising.  So I agree with BeauButabi. O0
As with all great films, you don't really know it until you've practically memorized the score, something, obviously, you can't do with a single viewing.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: cigar joe on July 14, 2008, 02:25:43 PM
I actually rewatched this again last night,  and figured out that the explosion at the end was just the dynamite that Mallory had in his duster and not the nitro.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Helenea on July 15, 2008, 04:50:41 PM
This is one of my sons favorites.  I always tell myself, "ahh,... you've seen it already, so no big deal"  problem is... I get hooked ever time it comes on.  I Like the intense in it! ;)


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: PowerRR on July 16, 2008, 01:12:04 AM
It's absolutely perfect. One of the greatest films ever made. The whole movie is beautiful - the scenery and cinematography, the characters and their interactions , Morricone's musical score. Absolutely flawless. Incredible. Mind-blowingly good.

Combine the action and overall entertainment of GBU with the heart of Once Upon a Time in the West and you get "DUCK YOU SUCKER".


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: T.H. on July 18, 2008, 06:16:20 PM
DYS is not on West, America and GBU's level. It's Leone not quite fully realized, which is in a way refreshing and gives the film a different feel and atmosphere. The flashbacks are probably the best that DYS has to offer, and it has many great moments, but don't expect to see some of the finer scenes in cinema history, nothing really transcendent or earth-shattering. DYS is merely great, which for Leone's standards is mildly disappointing. With all that said, it's a wonderful movie and among the best I've ever seen. Don't expect West or America and enjoy the movie for what it is.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: The Firecracker on July 25, 2008, 01:21:03 PM
Flawed Masterpiece but my favorite of Leone's.


Starts off as a fun comedy but turns into something more meaningful.
The switch can be hard on the attention span upon first viewing but give it more than one shot and I'm certain you will enjoy it.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: O'Cangaceiro on July 28, 2008, 08:52:03 PM
It has been over three months since I saw it last time. Time to watch it again.  ;D


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: geoman-1 on August 01, 2008, 04:33:54 PM
It's absolutely perfect. One of the greatest films ever made. The whole movie is beautiful - the scenery and cinematography, the characters and their interactions , Morricone's musical score. Absolutely flawless. Incredible. Mind-blowingly good.

Combine the action and overall entertainment of GBU with the heart of Once Upon a Time in the West and you get "DUCK YOU SUCKER".
Kudos RR.  I couldn't have said it any better.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: tucumcari bound on August 12, 2008, 07:46:45 PM
Kudos RR.  I couldn't have said it any better.

I agree with rr as well. Amazing film.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: dave jenkins on August 12, 2008, 08:08:43 PM
I wouldn't call it flawless because there are plot points that are needlessly confusing, but it is one of the greatest movies ever made.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Cole on December 04, 2008, 06:11:39 PM
I just watched it for the first time.This movie is awesome.The themes of this movie are really valid right now.I love the opening scene.That tells you right then what this film was going to be about.The music was great.You can tell Leone was having fun on this one.I don't see this film as a lesser work.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: uncknown on December 15, 2008, 09:00:47 PM
Flawed Masterpiece but my favorite of Leone's.


Starts off as a fun comedy but turns into something more meaningful.
The switch can be hard on the attention span upon first viewing but give it more than one shot and I'm certain you will enjoy it.


Right.
What's frustrating is that with some judicious editing it COULD be a flat out masterpiece.

Here is how:
- speed up and prune the needlessly drawn out rape sequence AND the part where Juan and his gang torment Juan by shooting his motorbike etc.
we have seen this before with leone and coming after the knockout opening sequence it really slows the film's momentum.
- get the film to Mesa Verde quicker, dammit!
-drop the Aschenbach factory sequence. It makes no sense plot or character wise. Consequently, cut the newspaper showing John Mallory wanted for murder.

When all is said and done, this remains leone's most moving film. Surprisingly so. It stirs the soul and leaves you profoundly shaken. How many films can make that claim?
It is also the one that is most dependent on Morricone's music. This really is Morricone'e film. All things considered,   it is the score that makes the film.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Groggy on December 16, 2008, 07:56:02 AM
I didn't have a problem with any of that. If you do, there's a 138 minute version on VHS you could always seek out.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: dave jenkins on December 16, 2008, 08:37:01 AM
Ditto. And the Aschenbach stuff is essential to the plot: it goes to Mallory's motivation for what follows.

I do agree about the importance of Morricone on this film. He's always important, of course, but here his stake in the game rises from his normal 40 to 50 percent or more.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: The Firecracker on December 16, 2008, 11:56:09 AM
Here is how:
- speed up and prune the needlessly drawn out rape sequence AND the part where Juan and his gang torment Juan by shooting his motorbike etc.
we have seen this before with leone and coming after the knockout opening sequence it really slows the film's momentum.
- get the film to Mesa Verde quicker, dammit!
-drop the Aschenbach factory sequence. It makes no sense plot or character wise. Consequently, cut the newspaper showing John Mallory wanted for murder.


I can't agree with any of that. If anything the movie needs more scenes to fill in the gaps for it to be more coherent.
The scene where Juan forces Sean through the desert needs to be found, restored and placed back into the movie.
Without that scene Mallory's attempt at murdering Juan and his family make him seem like an unlikable douche.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: stanton on December 16, 2008, 12:12:48 PM
This desert scene would have been another 10 min at minimum for the film which is already too long in the first half. And this desert scene isn't necessary for the plot.

The whole 1st half should have been conceived and shot in a shorter way. One of the weak points of the film.

What the film lacks is instead the scene in which Villega is tortured. I always had the feeling that there was (in an emotianal way) something missing, and when I learned from the DVD that this scene was indeed shot, I was surprised Leone left it out.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: uncknown on December 16, 2008, 12:24:38 PM
This desert scene would have been another 10 min at minimum for the film which is already too long in the first half. And this desert scene isn't necessary for the plot.

The whole 1st half should have been conceived and shot in a shorter way. One of the weak points of the film.

What the film lacks is instead the scene in which Villega is tortured. I always had the feeling that there was (in an emotianal way) something missing, and when I learned from the DVD that this scene was indeed shot, I was surprised Leone left it out.

Jesus, Juan...
The desert scene would have ruined the film! Its a carbon copy of the similar scene in GBU and totally out pf place (which is why the Ascenbach scene needs to go too!)
I used to have the novelization of DYS which was bases on the script and included this sequence. I cringed as i read it.

Cant agree about the torture scene, though I have never seen it.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: uncknown on December 16, 2008, 12:26:46 PM
Ditto. And the Aschenbach stuff is essential to the plot: it goes to Mallory's motivation for what follows.

I do agree about the importance of Morricone on this film. He's always important, of course, but here his stake in the game rises from his normal 40 to 50 percent or more.

Dave, I have never understood the motivation for Sean suddenly joining the revolution.
Can you enlighten me?


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: uncknown on December 16, 2008, 12:28:46 PM

I can't agree with any of that. If anything the movie needs more scenes to fill in the gaps for it to be more coherent.
The scene where Juan forces Sean through the desert needs to be found, restored and placed back into the movie.
Without that scene Mallory's attempt at murdering Juan and his family make him seem like an unlikable douche.

Wait a minute Firecracker!
my post was agreeing with YOUR post. how can you now disagree with ME? :-[


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Groggy on December 16, 2008, 04:35:40 PM
This desert scene would have been another 10 min at minimum for the film which is already too long in the first half. And this desert scene isn't necessary for the plot.

The whole 1st half should have been conceived and shot in a shorter way. One of the weak points of the film.

What the film lacks is instead the scene in which Villega is tortured. I always had the feeling that there was (in an emotianal way) something missing, and when I learned from the DVD that this scene was indeed shot, I was surprised Leone left it out.

I think Leone was right to cut the torture scene. It definitely would have lessened the impact of seeing Villega as the traitor with the firing squad.

I do have a related question, though: Why did Ruiz (presumably) let Villega go after the executions? Wouldn't it have made sense to kill him too? (Or perhaps he escaped...)


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: The Firecracker on December 16, 2008, 05:10:13 PM
Wait a minute Firecracker!
my post was agreeing with YOUR post. how can you now disagree with ME? :-[

I just reread your post and I'm certain we disagree on all accounts.

Stanton, as Groggy said already, the inclusion of the torture sequence would only ruin the surprise of Villega's betrayal.

And if the desert scene were left standing in the picture it would clear up the glaring continuity error of Mallory's chapped lips and dehydration during the church seen as well as clear up his motivation wanting to kill Juan's family (revenge).


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: dave jenkins on December 16, 2008, 08:49:49 PM
Dave, I have never understood the motivation for Sean suddenly joining the revolution.
Can you enlighten me?
I've covered this elsewhere, but I can't recall where exactly. Anyway . . . with Aschenbach gone, Mallory is left high and dry without a source of income. He now needs two things: someone to bankroll him, and a means of getting even with Juan. The Revolution supplies him with opportunities for both. Because Mallory has the right pedigree AND has been credited with the Aschenbach kill (that's why the newspaper article is necessary), the revolutionaries are only too happy to employ him. And with a bit of fooling around, Mallory makes sure that Juan becomes a "grand, glorious hero of the revolution" which keeps him from getting what he's after. This is the royal screwing Mallory refers to, although things get out of hand as everyone is OBE'd and Juan's kids get killed. Then momentum takes over, but eventually everything else drops away until the only motivations that remain are revenge and friendship.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: uncknown on December 16, 2008, 09:16:51 PM
I've covered this elsewhere, but I can't recall where exactly. Anyway . . . with Aschenbach gone, Mallory is left high and dry without a source of income. He now needs two things: someone to bankroll him, and a means of getting even with Juan. The Revolution supplies him with opportunities for both. Because Mallory has the right pedigree AND has been credited with the Aschenbach kill (that's why the newspaper article is necessary), the revolutionaries are only too happy to employ him. And with a bit of fooling around, Mallory makes sure that Juan becomes a "grand, glorious hero of the revolution" which keeps him from getting what he's after. This is the royal screwing Mallory refers to, although things get out of hand as everyone is OBE'd and Juan's kids get killed. Then momentum takes over, but eventually everything else drops away until the only motivations that remain are revenge and friendship.

Thanks

When i first saw the film - the 2:18 version- I always assumed that Sean was in mexico to help the Revolution*. I never 'got' the fact that his testing of dynamite was job related. I think I like that "version" better! LOL!

* i know mSean says "one revolution is enough for me" but I figured he was giving Juan a line (he certainly wouldn't admit it to a stranger)


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: stanton on December 17, 2008, 02:16:58 AM

Stanton, as Groggy said already, the inclusion of the torture sequence would only ruin the surprise of Villega's betrayal.

And if the desert scene were left standing in the picture it would clear up the glaring continuity error of Mallory's chapped lips and dehydration during the church seen as well as clear up his motivation wanting to kill Juan's family (revenge).

I personally think the revelation of Villega's betrayal does not need necessarily to be a surprise.

The even better idea would have been to present the torture scene later in a flashback. It would make Villega a more likeable character and would give his death more depth.

The miserable condition of Sean in the Aschenbach sequence is explained now by alcohol abuse, which is for me the better idea. The Aschenbach sequence is fine by me as part of the picture.

The marks of the desert scene are now, like the marks of Harmonica's beating in OuTW, only a small but forgettable continuity error. I have never thought about them before knowing about the desert scene.

And you need not to explain everything. Many claim that we need the cave scene to know where Tuco got his 3 henchman in GBU. Do we?  We don't need to know where Tuco got 3 men which are already killed in the next scene.

What is important about this scene is instead, what has the scene to tell us about Tuco? For me not enough to justify its inclusion in a rather long film.

Every film needs a balance to work perfectly, and if a film gets too long (or too short) it looses this balance.
I still say the whole beginning of DYS up to the arrival in Mesa Verde should have been made in a more concentrated way.
And I would like to see the desert scene, but like the cave scene in GBU and Harmonica's "rise from the death" at the railway station in OuTW, never as integral part of the movie.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: uncknown on December 17, 2008, 10:41:18 AM


The miserable condition of Sean in the Aschenbach sequence is explained now by alcohol abuse, which is for me the better idea.

The marks of the desert scene are now, like the marks of Harmonica's beating in OuTW, only a small but forgettable continuity error. I have never thought about them before knowing about the desert scene.

And you need not to explain everything. Many claim that we need the cave scene to know where Tuco got his 3 henchman in GBU. Do we?  We don't need to know where Tuco got 3 men which are already killed in the next scene.

What is important about this scene is instead, what does the scene has to tell us about Tuco? For me not enough to justify it's inclusion in a rather long film.

yep!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: The Firecracker on December 17, 2008, 12:49:27 PM
Thanks

When i first saw the film - the 2:18 version- I always assumed that Sean was in mexico to help the Revolution*


Easy to fall into that trap since Mallory seems to know (somehow) where the revolutionaries secret hiding place is.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: geoman-1 on December 20, 2008, 01:59:10 PM

Easy to fall into that trap since Mallory seems to know (somehow) where the revolutionaries secret hiding place is.
Good point FC. Did Mallory accidentally come across them at the restaurant ????


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Groggy on December 22, 2008, 06:19:35 AM
So, stanton. You say this:

I personally think the revelation of Villega's betrayal does not need necessarily to be a surprise.

The even better idea would have been to present the torture scene later in a flashback. It would make Villega a more likeable character and would give his death more depth.

But then later say this:

Quote
And you need not to explain everything.

Contradiction perhaps? Why do you think the torture scene should be in but not the desert scene?


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: stanton on December 22, 2008, 09:33:52 AM
As I said in the sentence you have quoted, it would make Villega a more likeable character and would give his death more depth. The fact that he was tortured is already evident in DYS without showing it. I wouldn't vote for the torture scene, because this scene explains something, but because I think the film somehow needs it in an emotional way.

And I think the desert scene would make a film longer, which is already a bit too long in this part.
If the only reason to include the desert scene is to explain Sean's chapped lips or his miserable condition, then I think it would hurt the film. The scene must contain something else, something new about Sean and Juan, but I doubt that similar to the grotto scene in GBU, there will be something interesting enough to justify it's inclusion. Of course, we would have to see both scenes, as for now we are only speculating. Leone surely had his reasons to skip both.

But I think my previous post made all this already clear.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: The Firecracker on December 22, 2008, 07:52:09 PM

If the only reason to include the desert scene is to explain Sean's chapped lips or his miserable condition

And his motivation to murder Juan and co. in cold blood.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Groggy on December 23, 2008, 06:38:10 AM
That doesn't seem very convincing to me, sorry. Not everything needs to be explicit. Leone knew this and used it to great effect; would OUATITW have been better if we'd seen the gunfight between Cheyenne and Frank's gangs at Morton's train?


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: stanton on December 23, 2008, 08:58:47 AM
That doesn't seem very convincing to me, sorry. Not everything needs to be explicit. Leone knew this and used it to great effect; would OUATITW have been better if we'd seen the gunfight between Cheyenne and Frank's gangs at Morton's train?

Are you talking to me or FC?

But no, I never wanted to see this gunfight. It was one of the great ideas of OuTW not to show the biggest shoot out of the film.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: uncknown on December 23, 2008, 11:08:18 AM
THERE  ARE scenes that are filmed and never included in any version of a film (outtakes); there are scenes  shot  and cut from the film after previews;  and there are scenes distributors and/or censors cut. (but you all know that).


Only the LAST should be part of any restoration.

The  DYS desert scene was not intended for the film so why include it?
In the case of GBU, the grotto scene only appeared in the film during PREVIEW screenings as far as i can determine) it was decided then that it was not essential and dropped. Same with Tuco's beating. It was too long and edited down (thank s god it and the Siccorro scene didn't survive inract or MGM would have put them in the 'restored' version- ten minutes of Tuco being beat up, tha't entertainment!).

And, of course there are those scenes that were shot and included in SOME versions and not others. The Harmonica rises from the dead for example.
I have seen versions with it and without it. I 'll be damned if I know whatto do with that one> LOL!

merry x-mas bandidos :)


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: uncknown on December 23, 2008, 11:20:55 AM
Good point FC. Did Mallory accidentally come across them at the restaurant ????


I still think Sean was originally part of the band of revolutionaries and then quit in disillusionment.
it is the only scenario that explains how he knew Villega and co.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: dave jenkins on December 23, 2008, 02:58:35 PM
That doesn't seem very convincing to me, sorry. Not everything needs to be explicit. Leone knew this and used it to great effect; would OUATITW have been better if we'd seen the gunfight between Cheyenne and Frank's gangs at Morton's train?
Yes.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: dave jenkins on December 23, 2008, 03:01:58 PM
I still think Sean was originally part of the band of revolutionaries and then quit in disillusionment.
it is the only scenario that explains how he knew Villega and co.
The IRA was a band of revolutionaries. He and Villega are fellow travelers, and would have known each other through the Old Boy Molotov-Throwers Net.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Groggy on December 23, 2008, 05:00:45 PM
Except neither the IRA nor Molotov Cocktails existed at that time. :D


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: dave jenkins on December 31, 2008, 06:24:22 PM
And your point is . . . ?


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Groggy on January 01, 2009, 07:52:40 AM
You're big on pedantic details elsewhere.

Wait a minute Jenkins. In regards to your yes reply to my post further up the thread: are you agreeing with me or saying that OUATITW would have been better had we seen the shootout?


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: The clint on January 06, 2009, 08:07:03 AM
I'd say Duck You Sucker is definitely Leone's odd film out. There is a very abrupt change of atmosphere around half-way through, and the whole film is weighed down by a strong topically political scent. It is, all things considered a very competently made film (apart from that awful wipe edit around two hours in).


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Groggy on January 06, 2009, 08:50:25 AM
Rewatching the film last night I found some problems with it - whether they're problems I've had before or am just noticing them now is open to question, as I loved the extended cut the first viewing but always found fault with the 138 minute version. The pacing is occasionally a bit off - the quick transitions from the battle at the bridge to the grotto massacre to the execution scene seems abrupt and rushed - which kind of bothered me. I'm also not sure why the flashbacks need to be as long as they are - the final flashback in particular was almost ridiculously drawn-out. And I still maintan Gunther Ruiz is one of the most pathetic movie villains ever, his henchmen obviously graduates of the Stormtrooper Marksman Academy, so there's not a great deal of dramatic tension in the later parts of the film. Not to mention there are numerous plotholes that are never adequately explained (Why does Mallory kill Aschenbach? How does Villega escape from Ruiz?). I still think it's a great film, but it's definitely a problematic one. Hope to expand this little comment to a full-length review ASAP.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: stanton on January 06, 2009, 09:46:58 AM
Actually it's not Sean who kills Aschenbach but Juan.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Groggy on January 06, 2009, 10:33:43 AM
Actually it's not Sean who kills Aschenbach but Juan.

Yeah, but John was going to. And if he wasn't, that only raises more questions.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: The Firecracker on January 06, 2009, 11:27:46 AM
Yeah, but John was going to. And if he wasn't, that only raises more questions.


Actually, Mallory had no desire to off his employer.
He set the dynamite to the church because he thought the German and his men were Juan and company.

The real question is why would John want to kill Juan and his extended family?
The answer lies in the desert sequence that was cut from the final product.


As for your other question...

Villega snitched on his comrades...Ruiz let him go for cooperating.



Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Groggy on January 06, 2009, 11:33:07 AM
Quote
Villega snitched on his comrades...Ruiz let him go for cooperating.

Perhaps. But that doesn't make much sense, since Ruiz has to know Villega is a major leader and isn't likely to just retire afterwards.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: The Firecracker on January 06, 2009, 11:36:36 AM
Perhaps. But that doesn't make much sense, since Ruiz has to know Villega is a major leader and isn't likely to just retire afterwards.


But Villega helped identify other big names like himself and Ruiz had them killed.

Without these guys there is no one to organize the revolution.
 Villega's life for dozens and dozens of these men is more than a fair enough bargain.
I think Ruiz's figuring is on the level.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Groggy on January 06, 2009, 11:41:05 AM
Ruiz doesn't seem like the sort of guy to cut a deal like that though. He has Villega, why let him go? It's not like there would be any retribution for a double-cross, and all it takes is one leader to make trouble and organize another cell. Maybe Ruiz is an idiot, but I doubt it.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: The Firecracker on January 06, 2009, 11:56:04 AM
You talk as if you know the guy.

We don't spend much time with him remember? :D


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Groggy on January 06, 2009, 12:02:11 PM
We had lunch today. I had a few pointed questions to ask him on this issue, and for the most part he declined to comment. He didn't seem like a very nice guy though, so I'm not too surprised.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: stanton on January 06, 2009, 12:12:00 PM
Yeah, in the real world they would surely shot Villega after he gave them what they want. Villega could with his betrayal only safe himself the pain, not the death.

But if we don't see something we are also free to search for our own explanations, even if they are a bit improbable. Maybe Villega fooled Ruiz by offering him in a convincing way to be a mole for him amongst the revolutionaries. Maybe he was freed before he got executed. Maybe ... whatever you can think of. It all may be unlikely, but it all is also possible.

Of course with the desert sequence Sean's attempt to blow Juan and his family away is easier to understand, but still, even without it, there was enough shown about Juan being a pain in the ass and together with showing Sean drunk and in a really bad mood, it always was enough explanation to me for the scene. At least I never thought about something missing there, or not being logic in the context of the scene and the film.
Still, I can perfectly understand why Leone decided to leave it out.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Groggy on January 06, 2009, 12:19:38 PM
I can't say I really mind the desert scene missing, to be honest. DYS misses it about as much as OUATITW misses the beating scene.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: sinisterplague on May 12, 2009, 05:00:20 PM
Will somebody PM me and tell me what happens in the desert scene? I've seen the newly released version and I don't know what part your talking about.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Novecento on May 14, 2009, 05:11:42 PM
It's absolutely perfect. One of the greatest films ever made. The whole movie is beautiful - the scenery and cinematography, the characters and their interactions , Morricone's musical score. Absolutely flawless. Incredible. Mind-blowingly good.

Combine the action and overall entertainment of GBU with the heart of Once Upon a Time in the West and you get "DUCK YOU SUCKER".

As much as it pains me to say it, I think I too prefer DYS to GBU.

In fact I would go so far as to say that the whole "Once Upon a Time" trilogy is superior to the "Dollars" trilogy. And they're both awesome trilogies!

Aren't we all lucky that in the end Sergio decided to direct this one himself!


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Novecento on May 15, 2009, 05:46:11 AM
Will somebody PM me and tell me what happens in the desert scene? I've seen the newly released version and I don't know what part your talking about.

Just in case no one PMed you: Watch the 2nd disc of the SE DVD where it's explained. The scene involves Juan and his men torturing Mallory (see the previous posts on this thread) but was cut out. Only photographic evidence has been found.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: geoman-1 on May 17, 2009, 06:53:47 AM
As much as it pains me to say it, I think I too prefer DYS to GBU.

In fact I would go so far as to say that the whole "Once Upon a Time" trilogy is superior to the "Dollars" trilogy. And they're both awesome trilogies!

Aren't we all lucky that in the end Sergio decided to direct this one himself!
Very hard to dispute, indeed. GBU and the OUAT films were near perfect. However, DYS took it to
a "whole nuva level".


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Colonel GŁnther Ruiz on May 17, 2009, 09:44:46 AM
I LOVE DYS!  As an idealistic liberal turned cynical political outsider, I feel that Leone captured perfectly the uselessness of politics and ideals in a cruel, corrupt world.  Only friendship matters, and even that can betray you.

Many people say that the Dollars trilogy gets better as it goes on and that OUATITW is better than the Dollars trilogy.  I agree with all that but I strongly disagree with people who say that DYS is an "off-Leone."  To me DYS is as good or better OUATITW and the sense of a wasted lifetime and nostalgia for the past that gives OUATIA its magic is also strong in DYS.  The film is a masterpiece, period.  8)


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Novecento on May 19, 2009, 09:54:57 AM
I re-watched this on Sunday night with my wife and mother-in-law. It went down really well. My plans to cultivate a taste for Sergio Leone in them is working very well indeed  O0. They both loved this one as they did OUATIW and GBU.

Unfortunately my wife did not appreciate OUATIA too much when she watched it a while back with me but I'll try it out on her again with her mom who is now very eager to see the final installment of the OUAT trilogy.

Still have to show them FOD and FFDM too.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Colonel GŁnther Ruiz on May 19, 2009, 10:04:05 AM
I re-watched this on Sunday night with my wife and mother-in-law. It went down really well. My plans to cultivate a taste for Sergio Leone in them is working very well indeed  O0. They both loved this one as they did OUATIW and GBU.

Unfortunately my wife did not appreciate OUATIA too much when she watched it a while back with me but I'll try it out on her again with her mom who is now very eager to see the final installment of the OUAT trilogy.

Still have to show them FOD and FFDM too.

I would say warn them about the Deborah rape scene.  My mother left the room during it.   :(


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Novecento on May 21, 2009, 01:28:01 PM
Actually, Mallory had no desire to off his employer.
He set the dynamite to the church because he thought the German and his men were Juan and company.

The real question is why would John want to kill Juan and his extended family?
The answer lies in the desert sequence that was cut from the final product.

Yeh, it took me a while to figure out that it was Juan and company that Mallory was trying to kill. It certainly would have helped if that had been more explicit, with or without the desert sequence.

It certainly doesn't help that it is sometimes, even to my English native speaker ear, difficult to understand what Coburn is saying. I think he's a great actor and I would not have wanted anyone else to play the role but his Irish accent sounds quite off to my, albeit non Irish, ear. It reminds me of him in the Great Escape where he again acts brilliantly but apparently his accent is meant to be Australian!


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Novecento on May 21, 2009, 01:30:15 PM
I would say warn them about the Deborah rape scene.  My mother left the room during it.   :(

Good point. I must say I find the scene particularly disturbing myself and tend to fast-forward it. Needless to say, my wife did not appreciate it.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Colonel GŁnther Ruiz on May 21, 2009, 04:24:20 PM
Good point. I must say I find the scene particularly disturbing myself and tend to fast-forward it. Needless to say, my wife did not appreciate it.

Mind you, the scene is supposed to be disturbing...and it is!  But yeah, the scene is still tough to get through.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: LINCOLNS GRANDFATHER on August 13, 2009, 04:03:05 PM
I actually rewatched this again last night,  and figured out that the explosion at the end was just the dynamite that Mallory had in his duster and not the nitro.

I wondered this myself Joe. The smoke, lighting and eerie wind sound kinda made me think it was the nitro however and the explosion seemed big for dynamite, but also too small for that amount of nitro.
Im gonna stick with the nitro Joe.


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: franksgrandson on June 12, 2011, 05:55:18 PM
for many years DYS was my least watched Leone
but I visit once in a while and it grows on you
till it becomes almost as good as GBU AND WEST
I always get an overwheming feeling of sorrow with this
film
A whole waste of life seems to permiate through the film
violence stops being fun.
the whole film feels like how you feel after killing someone
and that is the mark of a great director.
Coburn and Steiger were fantastic.
But I always wonder about Wallach as Juan


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: Just_a_man on May 11, 2016, 02:22:49 AM
Actually, Mallory had no desire to off his employer.
He set the dynamite to the church because he thought the German and his men were Juan and company.

The real question is why would John want to kill Juan and his extended family?
The answer lies in the desert sequence that was cut from the final product.

I never saw that scene. Can you fill me in on what happened in it?


Title: Re: How good is DYS?
Post by: uncknown on June 21, 2016, 08:20:29 PM

I always get an overwheming feeling of sorrow with this
film

it is incredibly powerful despite the narrative flaws. The only SL film that is truly moving.
I once read a piece that said the theme of the film is "All dreams are doomed" and that sure fits.
AT the end of the film Sean is dead- his dream of a united and free Ireland - doomed to fail.
Juan has lost his family, best friend and his dream of going to America - to rob banks!= also doomed.

Morricone's music is most responsible for the emotional weight . A truly remarkable accomplishment for a composer

bruce marshall