Sergio Leone Web Board

General Information => General Discussion => Topic started by: archangel on July 22, 2008, 03:48:15 AM



Title: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: archangel on July 22, 2008, 03:48:15 AM
another myth.
seen this in a number of pre 1960s HW westerns.

prime eg:
High Noon: Gary Cooper shoots the main villain(Miller) twice after Grace (perfect pussy) Kelly scratches his face.

same frame, no cross cut.


archie.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: cigar joe on July 22, 2008, 05:25:50 AM
I don't know where that came from either, it may have been more a 1950's  television convention at the time, it sure is a topic that needs a bit more investigation.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: archangel on July 22, 2008, 06:18:08 AM
hi cj,
also saw a number of examples in a B Wesern, circa early 1950s.
don't know the name, but it starred Ward Bond, Ben Johnson and one of the baddies was James Arness.
in the end shootout, there are a number of the shooter-shootee shots.
archie.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: Groggy on July 22, 2008, 06:28:24 AM
I'm pretty sure it happens with Gary Cooper and Burt Lancaster in Vera Cruz too. I haven't the foggiest idea of where this claim comes from, it's pretty absurd on the face of it.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: dave jenkins on July 22, 2008, 06:34:51 AM
It comes from film industry people who don't actually watch films . . .


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: Groggy on July 22, 2008, 06:37:00 AM
It comes from film industry people who don't actually watch films . . .

Was it Frayling? I believe he advances this claim in STDWD.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: archangel on July 22, 2008, 07:13:59 AM
hi,
first time i heard was when Clint Eastwood pointed it out in an interview somewhere.

seems to me that a more likely reason that it wasn't done often, especially in TV shows, is that it would be cheaper to intercut.
the setup for such a shot would be more elaborate requiring more rehearsal and all the actors to be present.
archie


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: archangel on July 22, 2008, 07:39:58 AM
43 secs into part 2 of Film 4's Once Upon A Time Sergio Leone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GezNwumK1w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GezNwumK1w)

According to Frayling, a convention going back to the Hays code.  There has to be a cut between weapon and effect.


yeah, well.......
they got it wrong, didn't they.
archie.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: Groggy on July 22, 2008, 07:40:32 AM
hi,
first time i heard was when Clint Eastwood pointed it out in an interview somewhere.

seems to me that a more likely reason that it wasn't done often, especially in TV shows, is that it would be cheaper to intercut.
the setup for such a shot would be more elaborate requiring more rehearsal and all the actors to be present.
archie

Good point. Perhaps it wasn't commonplace, but it did happen, with a reasonable degree of frequency.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: Groggy on July 22, 2008, 08:10:20 AM
Come to think of it, I think there's quite a bit of it in Ride the High Country too...


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: Ben Tyreen on July 22, 2008, 10:03:46 PM
Quote
Grace (perfect pussy) Kelly

  Most unnecessary addition to a sentence ever....but it made me chuckle.  Sounds like a rrpower post. ;D


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: Groggy on July 23, 2008, 06:05:14 AM
Frayling's heart is in the right place.  He's collected a lot of information and seems to be a fan of Leone but sometimes, when trying to praise Leone or show Leone's uniqueness, he produces somewhat dubious examples.  He's still my No. 1 choice for the commentary on the OUATIA Blu-ray DVD.

I think that's a fair assessment. O0


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: cigar joe on July 23, 2008, 06:25:36 AM
It would be nice to interview him to see what he actually ment.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: moviesceleton on August 07, 2008, 09:28:43 AM
It would be nice to interview him to see what he actually ment.
If I remember correct, Juan Miranda has his e-mail...


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: noodles_leone on August 11, 2008, 08:31:58 AM
I always thought that was Leone who told that... (which would not be surprizing)


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: PowerRR on August 13, 2008, 10:09:39 AM
(perfect pussy) Kelly
Awwwwwwwwwww yeah


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: ChristopherF on September 11, 2008, 10:00:44 AM
Dear All

Yes, the point about ‘Shooter and Shootee’ seems to have come originally from my interview with Clint Eastwood, who must have had in mind his experience on Rawhide.  So maybe it was a TV Western thing rather than a movie censorship thing. Someone should look at the old Hays Code guidelines to check. If I have unwittingly created a myth, mea culpa.

Christopher Frayling



Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: Groggy on September 11, 2008, 10:54:12 AM
Well... Are you really Christopher Frayling? :o If so, welcome to SLWB! Hope you decide to stick around. O0


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: dave jenkins on September 11, 2008, 01:28:03 PM
Dear All

Yes, the point about ‘Shooter and Shootee’ seems to have come originally from my interview with Clint Eastwood, who must have had in mind his experience on Rawhide.  So maybe it was a TV Western thing rather than a movie censorship thing. Someone should look at the old Hays Code guidelines to check. If I have unwittingly created a myth, mea culpa.

Christopher Frayling
It wasn't just a TV thing, though; I seem to remember a commentary on Bonnie and Clyde that brought up the same shooter/shootee issue (B&C supposedly being the first Hollywood movie to violate the taboo). There is something in this, but it probably wasn't as strictly observed as we've been led to believe; there must have been a host of variables to consider, including distance of the action from the camera, duration of the shot, etc. Also, the Hays/Breen standards were constantly evolving; some of the things verboten in the 40s could sneak through in the 50s. But yeah, we need someone with expertise on this matter to weigh in here.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: moviesceleton on September 12, 2008, 10:37:23 AM
Well... Are you really Christopher Frayling? :o If so, welcome to SLWB! Hope you decide to stick around. O0
This forum with all its trolls has made me so sceptic that I find it hard to believe this. But if in fact this is true:  O0 :-* 8) :o


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: The Firecracker on September 12, 2008, 12:31:48 PM
This forum with all its trolls has made me so sceptic that I find it hard to believe this. But if in fact this is true:  O0 :-* 8) :o

It is indeed Mr. Frayling.
Banjo checked his IP and it shows a London address and his email.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: moviesceleton on September 13, 2008, 02:01:20 AM
It is indeed Mr. Frayling.
Banjo checked his IP and it shows a London address and his email.
My jaw just dropped on the floor... Way cool O0


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: Tucumcari Bound on October 01, 2008, 12:08:51 PM
My jaw just dropped on the floor... Way cool O0

Yeah, mine too. That is amazing. It's to bad he doesn't post here more often. I'm guessing he checks in from time to time though.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: Atlas2112 on October 01, 2008, 07:42:59 PM
Get real T_B, He's a busy man. I mean, he is a knight after all, he's probably fighting some sort of crusade.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: archangel on October 03, 2008, 08:49:43 PM
hi,
there are two types of people in this world, my friend: those who THINK they know, and those who DO know.

mr frayling, you stand corrected, sir.

archangel.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: archangel on January 10, 2009, 08:54:42 AM
hi guys,
i've located another example of Shooter-Shootee.

John Ford's "Wagon Master" from 1950,  so it precedes "High Noon".

saw it on TV years back, but didn't notice it then.

it's in the end shoot-out with the Cleggs. and it's a fairly quick edit.

the film's a bit dated now but it does feature Ben Johnson, Ward Bond and Harry Carey Jr - all great western actors.

look it up on youtube.

best,

archie.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: Groggy on January 26, 2010, 11:17:05 AM
Come to think of it, both The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance and Cheyenne Autumn featured this.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: Groggy on October 20, 2010, 04:33:04 PM
Is it possible this rule/guideline was enforced only within specific genres? I do remember watching White Heat not long ago, and despite a lot of killings they almost made a fetish of cutting away from shooting victims.

If you think about when the Hayes Code was first instituted, this might make sense. The '30s of course was the tail-end of Prohibition heyday of the bank robbers like Dillinger, Pretty Boy Floyd etc., many of whom purportedly modeled themselves on Hollywood gangsters. So perhaps the rule was in place for certain genres, say, gangster films or crime flicks in general, where a hypothetical gullible audience member might some ideas, while Westerns and period films went untouched.

Or maybe it just wasn't consistently enforced.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: dave jenkins on October 20, 2010, 05:28:24 PM
Or maybe it just wasn't consistently enforced.
More than that, I don't think it was ever codified. That is, there was never an explicit rule written down on a sheet of paper somewhere. It was all a matter of Hayes (later Breen) or whoever just looking at scripts and/or films and lodging complaints as objections occurred to them. The studios could anticipate what might get noticed, and self-censor themselves. But they might let something slip through, something that the Code guys might in turn also not notice (they were, after all, reviewing a ton of product). You might be on to something, though: there may have been more attention paid to certain potential "offenses" in certain types of films than in others. For example, a gangster film might be scoured more closely for violence issues (those being expected in a gangster film) than in, say, a costume picture (which might have duels, murders, battles, what-have-you). Just speculating, though.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: Groggy on October 21, 2010, 03:15:11 PM
Superb post HG! O0


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: archangel on November 04, 2010, 07:30:40 AM
hi guys,
just a small update.
been watching lotz of old TV westerns on YouTube.
mainly on CarrieOK4059, i think that's the right name..........
anyway, episodes of Lawman and Tombstone Territory feature shooter-shootee situations a few times.
maybe, because of budget and a "disposable" medium mindset lead to this happening.
oh, and, i think i was it in the High Chaparral a coupla times as well.
cheers,
archie.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: dave jenkins on November 04, 2010, 07:52:59 PM
Great work! O0 O0


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: archangel on November 07, 2010, 07:15:54 AM
yup, they are the ones in HN.
was watching the latest Lawman upload tonight and i counted two in the final showdown.
James Drury guest stars as Dan Troops brother in this one and dispatches the main baddy with 2 shotgun blasts before being shot about 3 x himself.
and it's all in the same frame.

High Chaparral: the Doc Holliday episode. Doc, played by Jack Kelly, shoot a Mexican in the head a very close range. Bullet hole in head included.
best,
archie.
PS: looks like Eastwood was very wrong about this type of thing.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: dave jenkins on November 11, 2010, 05:30:44 AM
According to Frayling, Clint Eastwood said:   "You had to shoot separately, and then show the person fall.  And that was always thought sort of stupid, but on television we always did it that way...
The code for TV was even stricter than the one for films, so maybe what Eastwood was thinking about was the TV standards and practices (which were in a sense derived from the motion picture ones), and later in his mind conflated movie/TV censorship issues. In any event, when he worked for Leone, American TV is pretty much what Eastwood knew about.

Once again, HD: great job.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: cigar joe on November 12, 2010, 05:45:20 PM
 O0 O0 O0


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: archangel on November 14, 2010, 08:01:58 AM
hi,
thank you all for your interest.
here's another thought..........
maybe, if he had lived, Eric Fleming would have been even bigger than Clint Eastwood.
i like Clint - who doesn't?
BUT.
Fleming is certainly a better actor, based on Rawhide, thanks to Carrie.
he engenders a certain trust and gravitas that Clint just doesn't.
also Steve McQueen in Bullitt is really an early Dirty Harry.
again, more trust and gravitas, than Clint.
archie.



Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: dave jenkins on November 14, 2010, 09:31:47 AM

Back to movies.  Recently watched Gun Crazy (1950) and This Gun For Hire (1942).

Both broadly follow the Hays guidelines. For example in Gun Crazy a boy shoots a chicken using a BB gun. The boy firing the gun is in one frame followed by a still of the dead chicken in the next frame. In This Gun For Hire there is even a closed door between the shooter and shootee.  Alan Ladd fires a gun at a closed door behind which there is a woman. You never see the woman being killed but hear the noise of her falling to the floor.

Both scenes are probably more effective than if they had been filmed with the shooter and the shootee in the same frame.
The Hays code unintentionally contributed to the mise en scene of many films, sometimes for the better. Some of the euphemisms developed for sex are quite inventive.

It's worth noting that your movie examples come from the 40s and early 50s. The TV shows you mention seem to be later, when the hold of the Code was weakening. Early TV was an odd beast: there were the industry Standards and Practices that had to be adhered to, but then sponsors might have additional proscriptions as well. This is particularly true when a single sponsor was dominant, as with things like Kraft Mystery Theater. But things loosened up over time.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: archangel on December 16, 2010, 05:36:03 AM
hi,
more.
"The Professionals" 1966.
j.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: archangel on December 17, 2010, 11:29:53 PM
hi,
and more.
Rio Bravo. (1959)
Dean Martin shoots a guy in the saloon.
j.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 23, 2013, 04:50:05 PM
Just read the book "A Personal Journey With Martin Scorsese Through American Movies," which is basically the text of a documentary Scorsese made for BFI in the mid-90's in honor of the 100th anniversary of cinema.

on pp. 154-155, the following passage is spoken by Arthur Penn: The old studio system was so hypocritical. They were constantly fearful of being accused of instilling in youth the glory of the outlaw. So they had these rules that you couldn't even fire a gun in the same frame with somebody getting hit. You had to literally have a film cut in-between.
So I though that if we are going to show this, we should show it. We should show what it looks like when somebody gets shot. That shooting somebody is not a sanitized event, it is not immaculate. There's an enormous amount of blood, there's... a horror of change that takes place when that occurs. And we were in the middle of the Vietnamese War. What you saw on television every night was every bit as, perhaps even more, bloody than what we were showing on film."

As we've discussed, there were many instances in which this "rule" wasn't kept, for whatever reason.... But this idea that shooter/shootee could not be in same frame was not made up by Frayling or Eastwood out of whole cloth


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: stanton on November 24, 2013, 04:04:10 AM
I never assumed that it was made up by them, but there are much too much examples which prove that this rule wasn't a rule in the decades before. So when it ever was a rule or some kind of an unspoken law, the question is when (if ever) was it an rule?
And if it was a (written or unwritten) rule still in the 50s, why could so many films ignore it?


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on November 24, 2013, 04:47:03 AM
I never assumed that it was made up by them, but there are much too much examples which prove that this rule wasn't a rule in the decades before. So when it ever was a rule or some kind of an unspoken law, the question is when (if ever) was it an rule?
And if it was a (written or unwritten) rule still in the 50s, why could so many films ignore it?

yeah, maybe if he was talking about the 40's or 50's, I could understand it; but what is surprising is to see that quote by Penn mentioning Vietnam, which means he had to be talking about sometime in the '60's.

UPDATE: Looking back at the quote, Penn starts by saying, "The old studio system was so hypocritical." (emphasis added). So maybe he wasn't saying that rule was still being enforced in the Vietnam-era (when the studio system was crumbling). Maybe he was referring back to the heyday of the studio system, say in the 40's, and then comparing that period (when such rules were enforced) to the 60's. Who knows. I pasted the entire text of the quote, so there is no further context to it.

Two things are certain: I) at some point, there was some rule about not showing shooter/shootee in same frame;
 II) that rule was broken long before Sergio Leone ever made a Western


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: stanton on November 24, 2013, 05:09:50 AM
Maybe in the 30s, when the Hays Code was installed. We had some examples of the 40s too, hadn't we?
A lot was already possible in the silent era (nudity and violence) which was not only in the USA not possible for 3 decades, before the 60s changed everything. But since the 30s the censorship was permanently changing by films which pushed the boundaries a little bit further, and when that was accepted it became a mainstream custom a few years later. But in the 60s everything developed pretty fast in all directions.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: cigar joe on November 24, 2013, 07:32:54 AM
I've read that it began to crumble during WWII, newsreels were showing grittier violence than the films that followed.


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: noodles_leone on August 24, 2017, 07:36:01 AM
I don't know where that came from either, it may have been more a 1950's  television convention at the time, it sure is a topic that needs a bit more investigation.

I'm listening to an Interview Eastwood gave to a French radio station about 20 years ago, where he talks about it. He says they weren't allowed to do it on Rawhide.

The list of things they couldn't do on Rawhide that Leone could do (because he was "an unkown Italian") is shortly after the 1 hour 38 minutes mark in the podcast:

https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/les-nuits-de-france-culture/clint-eastwood-jai-ete-lhomme-de-nulle-part-pendant-45-ans
 


Title: Re: shooter and shootee in same frame.....?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on August 24, 2017, 08:32:58 AM
I'm listening to an Interview Eastwood gave to a French radio station about 20 years ago, where he talks about it. He says they weren't allowed to do it on Rawhide.

The list of things they couldn't do on Rawhide that Leone could do (because he was "an unkown Italian") is shortly after the 1 hour 38 minutes mark in the podcast:

https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/les-nuits-de-france-culture/clint-eastwood-jai-ete-lhomme-de-nulle-part-pendant-45-ans
 

Eastwood mentions this frequently. Is it possible that it was a TV rule rather than a movie rule? Then again, as noted above, Arthur Penn clearly says it was a rule under the "studio system." So at some point, the rule did apply to movies as well;  perhaps television was more strict in enforcing it, or perhaps the rule was followed in television long after movies had stopped following it.