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Films of Sergio Leone => Other Films => Topic started by: tucumcari bound on August 07, 2008, 11:33:08 PM



Title: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: tucumcari bound on August 07, 2008, 11:33:08 PM

The legendary true story of a small band of soldiers who sacrificed their lives in hopeless combat against a massive army in order to prevent a tyrant from smashing the new Republic of Texas.

I just picked up the John Wayne version of "The Alamo" on DVD. Yes, I understand that this DVD release is the edited version of the film but I thought it was worth getting in the mean time. Has anybody actually seen the un-edited version of the film? How much better is it? I wish MGM would release this version because I'm dying to see it. That being said, I think it's a must have for any John Wayne fan. As most of you know he not only starred in the film but he directed and produced it as well.

(http://www.moviegoods.com/Assets/product_images/1020/412449.1020.A.jpg)


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: The Firecracker on August 07, 2008, 11:48:53 PM
The remake is better.


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: tucumcari bound on August 07, 2008, 11:56:43 PM
The remake is better. THERE! I said it!

hahaha, hey man, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Honestly though, I haven't seen the remake yet and I'm pissed off I haven't done so.


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: Ben Tyreen on August 08, 2008, 10:25:44 AM
Quote
Yes, I understand that this DVD release is the edited version of the film but I thought it was worth getting in the mean time. Has anybody actually seen the un-edited version of the film? How much better is it? I wish MGM would release this version because I'm dying to see it.

  It's one of my all-time favorites, and I was lucky (dumb luck that is) enough to buy a copy of the Extended Version.....as a nine-year old, and I still have it.  I used a Best Buy certificate from my birthday and picked it up, not knowing at the ripe old age of nine that there were 2 versions floating around.  It's said that the reels of the extended version were left to deteriorrate so badly.

  As for the Extended Version, which I think is much better, some added scenes include Emil Sande's death in the church basement where the ammo/rifles are stored, a speech between Travis and Dickinson about Travis' Jeffersonian beliefs, a conversation about Fannin, scouting for Santa Anna's cattle herd, the deaths of both the Parson and Scotty, Crockett's prayer to God to keep his men safe (the best scene that was cut), Lisa Dickinson's b-day party, and a few other small additions including a slightly longer Crockett death scene.

  And maybe it's just me, but the 2004 version is not a remake, it's a retelling of a historical incident.  It'd be like saying Son of the Morning Star is a remake of They Died With Their Boots On.  Either way, the 2004 version is really good, and I still stay Billy Bob deserved a nomination for his performance as David, not Davy, Crockett.

The Waynamo 10/10  Always one of my favorites  O0
The Alamo 9/10  An excellent retelling of the Alamo story that never got a fair shot in theaters. :'(


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: tucumcari bound on August 08, 2008, 01:31:36 PM
  It's one of my all-time favorites, and I was lucky (dumb luck that is) enough to buy a copy of the Extended Version.....as a nine-year old, and I still have it.  I used a Best Buy certificate from my birthday and picked it up, not knowing at the ripe old age of nine that there were 2 versions floating around.  It's said that the reels of the extended version were left to deteriorrate so badly.

  As for the Extended Version, which I think is much better, some added scenes include Emil Sande's death in the church basement where the ammo/rifles are stored, a speech between Travis and Dickinson about Travis' Jeffersonian beliefs, a conversation about Fannin, scouting for Santa Anna's cattle herd, the deaths of both the Parson and Scotty, Crockett's prayer to God to keep his men safe (the best scene that was cut), Lisa Dickinson's b-day party, and a few other small additions including a slightly longer Crockett death scene.

  And maybe it's just me, but the 2004 version is not a remake, it's a retelling of a historical incident.  It'd be like saying Son of the Morning Star is a remake of They Died With Their Boots On.  Either way, the 2004 version is really good, and I still stay Billy Bob deserved a nomination for his performance as David, not Davy, Crockett.

The Waynamo 10/10  Always one of my favorites  O0
The Alamo 9/10  An excellent retelling of the Alamo story that never got a fair shot in theaters. :'(

I had a feeling you'd love this film Ben Tyreen. You have some great taste my friend and I always enjoy your thoughts about films here. Thanks.


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: mike siegel on August 08, 2008, 01:33:09 PM
Ey Ben, so you are rather young then?
Good taste you got!

As far as I know the roadshow version will not be released on DVD. It seems MGM messed up the only existing print during cleaning with wrong chemicals or something years ago. Before that the roadshow version was supposed to be lost forever anyway. But 70mm fans discovered the last print 20 years ago, it was mislabeled and therefore believed to be the cut version.
I made myself a DVD, for that I enhanced the PAL- WideScreen tape, worked quite well.
Last year I contributed to a great book on Wayne's THE ALAMO. It is a bit expensive but limited and packed with
rare stills & stories...

(http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1612/7186524/16445514/296542623.jpg)
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1612/7186524/16445514/303961237.jpg)


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: tucumcari bound on August 08, 2008, 01:39:16 PM
Ey Ben, so you are rather young then?
Good taste you got!

As far as I know the roadshow version will not be released on DVD. It seems MGM messed up the only existing print during cleaning with wrong chemicals or something years ago. Before that the roadshow version was supposed to be lost forever anyway. But 70mm fans discovered the last print 20 years ago, it was mislabeled and therefore believed to be the cut version.
I made myself a DVD, for that I enhanced the PAL- WideScreen tape, worked quite well.
Last year I contributed to a great book on Wayne's THE ALAMO. It is a bit expensive but limited and packed with
rare stills & stories...

(http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1612/7186524/16445514/296542623.jpg)
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1612/7186524/16445514/303961237.jpg)

Thanks for those pictures mike!

I can't believe MGM messed up the only existing print. I hope that's not true.


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: mike siegel on August 08, 2008, 05:37:02 PM
two rare images...

(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1612/7186524/16445514/329361809.jpg)

(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1612/7186524/16445514/329361812.jpg)


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: Ben Tyreen on August 09, 2008, 12:12:49 AM
Quote
Ey Ben, so you are rather young then?
Good taste you got!

  That I am, at the ripe old age of 23.  O0  I was lucky enough my senior year of high school to visit Bracketville/Alamo Village where Wayne built the whole gigantic set on Happy Shahan's ranch.  The whole Alamo and all of San Antonio are all still there.  Walking around that place was truly one of the coolest things I've ever done, much like what I imagine walking around Sad Hill would be like or any other great movie locations.  I took a ton of pictures, I'll try and post some so everybody can see how much the set has changed over the last 48 years.

Quote
Last year I contributed to a great book on Wayne's THE ALAMO. It is a bit expensive but limited and packed with
rare stills & stories...

  I saw that book at Cinema Retro last year, mike, is it so pricy because it is a Limited Edition, or is there another reason I'm not thinking of? :)


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: Cusser on August 09, 2008, 08:25:30 AM
Well, I actually saw "The Alamo" when it first came out, as a kid in Pittsburgh.  It played downtown with advance/reserved tickets, it was big.  My parents even bought (at the theater) a thin, hard-bound book (now lost) with lots of color photos from the film in it.  I can't remember if all those scenes were in it then, maybe that book listed its run time.   I've been to the Alamo site myself.  Sure, those 185 guys were very heroic.  Sure, they were fighting to keep slavery which Mexico didn't allow.  Personally I think the film is mediocre, but I do own the soundtrack record (vinyl LP, Tiomkin).


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: Groggy on August 10, 2008, 05:23:37 AM
This was one of my favorites as a kid, but I haven't seen it in many a year.


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: tucumcari bound on August 10, 2008, 01:10:55 PM
This was one of my favorites as a kid, but I haven't seen it in many a year.

I haven't seen it in years actually but I just picked it up on DVD. I'll probably watch it tonight myself.


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: dave jenkins on March 14, 2009, 01:18:24 PM
According to Cinema Retro, the Waynemo DIRECTOR'S CUT is playing on TCM Tuesday (to celebrate St. Paddy's Day I wonder?). Burn 'em if you got 'em. http://www.cinemaretro.com/index.php?/archives/3045-TCM-TO-BROADCAST-DIRECTORS-CUT-OF-JOHN-WAYNES-THE-ALAMO-ON-MARCH-17.html


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: dave jenkins on March 21, 2009, 07:21:07 PM
An interesting note--and appeal--from Robert A. Harris: http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/robertharris/harris032009.html


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: titoli on May 19, 2009, 04:15:34 PM
This was one of the very first movies I remember ever having seen. The only thing that impressed me was the strange gun used by Bowie. (What it was CJ?).But I remembered it only now that i have ssen the dvd.
I understand that the current available version is cut. Well, I still think the movie is too long. Half an hour less would have been a great improvement. E.g. the Cristal scenes, the crap reflections on religion, the freeing of the slave: all the more strange as Wayne's was not a philistine movie. 7\10 



Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: mike siegel on May 19, 2009, 04:37:02 PM
with me it is the opposite. I never liked the 160 minute cut very much.
With 200 minutes it became a better film, it needs that length.

Robert Harris is currently restoring. Good news.


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: cigar joe on May 19, 2009, 10:15:20 PM
The gun is a pepper box

http://www.cwslagleantiques.com/view_cat.cfm?catid=67


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: The Firecracker on May 19, 2009, 11:17:54 PM
The gun is a pepper box

http://www.cwslagleantiques.com/view_cat.cfm?catid=67

The link shows only pistols.

The one Widmark has when he buys the farm is the size of a rifle!
Did they make those?

(http://spaghettiwesterns.1g.fi/guns/noroom_01a.jpg)

(http://spaghettiwesterns.1g.fi/guns/noroom_01b.jpg)

(http://spaghettiwesterns.1g.fi/guns/noroom_01c.jpg)

(http://spaghettiwesterns.1g.fi/guns/noroom_01d.jpg)

(http://spaghettiwesterns.1g.fi/guns/Volleygun_AceHigh_01.jpg)

(http://spaghettiwesterns.1g.fi/guns/Volleygun_AceHigh_02.jpg)

(http://spaghettiwesterns.1g.fi/guns/Volleygun_AceHigh_03.jpg)


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: cigar joe on May 20, 2009, 02:42:46 PM
http://books.google.com/books?id=TYlCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA66&lpg=PA66&dq=pepperbox+rifle&source=bl&ots=0p1t60dqNS&sig=KS9aeXR0mL3CnbFGTuwHnwJmc94&hl=en&ei=1WoUSprMG82LtgfV542NBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: Groggy on August 18, 2009, 12:50:40 PM
It's called a Nock gun, a handheld version of the "Volley gun" used by the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic Wars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nock_gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nock_gun)
http://www.southessex.co.uk/weapons/nock.htm (http://www.southessex.co.uk/weapons/nock.htm)

(http://www.southessex.co.uk/weapons/images/nock2_sml.jpg)


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: Dust Devil on August 01, 2010, 04:03:58 PM
I just watched the 2 hours 40 (something) minutes version in one piece for the very first time in my life, and I really do not see how this could turn into a masterpiece with the addition of 40 more minutes. This is too long already, way too long. John Wayne trying so hard to emulate John Ford: a pity. The characters occasionally deliver entertaining miniatures but otherwise they drag the whole movie that already dances around with very few clothes on (the story). I really liked some of the action scenes, though, and the actual battle actually ain't bad.

Watch it again anytime soon? - I don't think so.


6/10


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: Groggy on August 02, 2010, 06:54:48 AM
The missing forty minutes definitely helps to flesh out the characters, but it doesn't by any means turn it from a so-so movie into a great one.


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: Dust Devil on August 02, 2010, 11:35:50 AM
The missing forty minutes definitely helps to flesh out the characters

I doubt it - most of the characters are all bones no flesh already.


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: Dust Devil on August 03, 2010, 07:13:51 AM
I was wondering if anyone here who watched the movie caught a short piece of dialogue between Graciela 'Flaca' de Lopez y Vejar and Emil Sande (?), going something like: ''I'm not greedy - I'm only taking half.''

?


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: Dust Devil on August 03, 2010, 07:16:59 AM

From Wiki:

Quote
Direction

Wayne's mentor John Ford showed up uninvited and attempted to exert undue influence on the film. Wayne sent him off to shoot unnecessary second-unit footage in order to maintain his own authority. Virtually nothing of Ford's footage was used, but Ford is often erroneously described as an uncredited co-director.

According to many people involved in the film, Wayne was an intelligent and gifted director, despite a weakness for the long-winded dialog of his favorite screenwriter, James Edward Grant. Roberts and Olson describe his direction as "competent but not outstanding". Widmark complained that Wayne would try to tell him and other actors how to play their parts, which sometimes went against their own interpretation of characters.


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: mike siegel on August 03, 2010, 09:01:00 AM
From Wiki:


That's about what happened. Don Siegel said about Wayne: ''He'll never be a good director - he lacks patience''. Everybody who knows Bogdanovich's stories about Wayne it's an understatement :).
But of course WAyne was really on the edge during that production: he wanted to make that film for 15 years...
Although after 30 years of film making Wayne was very experienced of course, ALAMO nevertheless is a directorial feature film debut,
and I think it's quite outstanding considering that. I've seen 'epics' by so-called big-time film makers that were boring, dull, fake and phoney.

THE ALAMO is not for people who can't stand Wayne & the world surrounding him. Maybe it's less THE ALAMO than JOHN WAYNE's THE ALAMO..

couple of my first release posters:
(http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae15/peckinpah69/wayne/a-french2p.jpg)(http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae15/peckinpah69/wayne/a-germa0.jpg)

(http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae15/peckinpah69/wayne/a-us.jpg)(http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae15/peckinpah69/wayne/a-bel.jpg)

(http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae15/peckinpah69/wayne/a-span.jpg)(http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae15/peckinpah69/wayne/a-french.jpg)













Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 29, 2012, 01:15:34 AM
Just saw this movie for the first time. 6.5/10


Firstly, this film has an absolutely wonderful score by Dimitri Tiomkin. Even the bad scenes -- and the are quite a few -- are almost made watchable cuz of the terrific music.

Wayne and Widmark are good as expected, but Laurence Harvey was totally miscast as Col. Travis.

There is too much speechifying. Way too much nonsense and partying with the drunken Tennesseeans. Why does it seem that so many people felt that a necessary element of every Western was having many scenes with drunken parties and buffoons?

So the movie had some very enjoyable parts and some very unenjoyable parts.

I didn't love the version of the de Guello -- the "cutthroat song" from Rio Bravo -- that the Mexican soldiers play before the battle; it is played way too fast. The slower version, from Rio Bravo, is much better. And I never like the songs with lyrics that play in the beginning and end of the movie.
Otherwise, this movie has one of the best scores of any American Western ever. (Off the top of my head, this may be top 3, along with Rio Bravo and Red River, both of which were also by Tiomkin).


I saw the dvd, which is the 161-minute version. I hear that they are restoring the original version which has an extra 30 minutes or so; currently, the only way to see that version is when it plays on TCM. As it is, this movie is probably half an hour to long; can adding 30 minutes to an already overlong movie make it better? I doubt it. (But I guess that I will check it out next time it plays on TCM; and whenever the restored dvd comes out, perhaps I'll rent it).


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: Groggy on April 29, 2012, 07:20:24 AM
I think the added scenes do a lot to develop the characters. In a strict narrative sense they don't add a whole lot.


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: noodles_leone on April 29, 2012, 11:59:03 AM
They're supposed to make you care about the character, so the movie is not just an uninvolving lost battle. Now, I haven't watched the Alamo for years so I cannot really remember if they work or if they fail :)


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: stanton on April 29, 2012, 12:30:41 PM
I only know the short version, which could be shorter and for that better imo. Can't say that I cared much for the characters. Just like D&D I don't like all that Fordish brawling stuff. But the directing is good, and the filming of the landscape is very good, and the final action is not only spectacular but still stunning. 6/10

Can't say that I'm much interested in that uncut version at the moment, but you never know ...



Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 29, 2012, 07:12:56 PM
I think the added scenes do a lot to develop the characters. In a strict narrative sense they don't add a whole lot.

But does the extra character development make the nonsense with the drunken Tennesseans less annoying?  ;)

I will check it out when it plays on TCM.



Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: Cusser on April 30, 2012, 07:31:58 AM
I have the Alamo LP record, very good.  I saw this at theater back in 1960, was a big deal, downtown theater, family bought a thin hard-back book with lots of pictures.  Unfortunately, that was lost decades ago.

Agree, film drags, runs too long in my opinion.  Wayne too old for his role, and his Crockett, though a famous guy (even a congressman) wasn't the boss there.  Not too much in the Alamo about Texas wanting to be away from Mexico because Mexico (the "bad guys") were against slavery and the Americans wanted slavery in Texas region.

Wayne's Alamo was filmed at a replica in Bracken Texas.  But if you get a chance, go to San Antonio and see the real Alamo.  The building we see as the "front" of the Alamo (see posters above) is really way inside the compound, which really wasn't a fort.

I believe History channel ascribed defeat of the Texans to the height of the wall, that they had to stand up and be exposed to shoot down at the Mexicans, so were easy targets.  Still: 185 against a few thousand is pretty damn heroic.


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: noodles_leone on April 30, 2012, 11:08:38 AM
... or stupid. Never ending argument :)


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 30, 2012, 05:07:38 PM

 Not too much in the Alamo about Texas wanting to be away from Mexico because Mexico (the "bad guys") were against slavery and the Americans wanted slavery in Texas region.


When you say "Americans wanted slavery in the Texas region," you mean to say "the Texans wanted slavery," correct?

Of course, "liberty" during that time period meant "liberty for whites," sadly.


Title: Re: The Alamo (1960)
Post by: Cusser on May 01, 2012, 07:27:58 AM
the Americans who had moved westward into Texas