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Films of Sergio Leone => Other Films => Topic started by: spag fan on December 20, 2004, 02:24:30 PM



Title: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: spag fan on December 20, 2004, 02:24:30 PM
Bravado's is definitely worth a watch. Damn good. I also thought Johnny Guitar was damn good though.


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: cigar joe on December 20, 2004, 03:57:32 PM
I'm with you on Johnny Guitar derringdo, It must gain something in foreign translations, lol, the Bravados is another matter a very dark western and different from the same old same old, you'll see.


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: Cusser on December 20, 2004, 04:35:49 PM
Bravados is tons better than Johnny Guitar.  Like above post said: Johnny is very boring, and the two women characters are horrible; after watching, I wanted to kill the two actresses.  I've seen Bravados a few times, well worth viewing; Henry Silva is a predecessor for Cuchillo in Big Gundown, a few similarities to my mind.  Gregory Peck shows some conscience at the end, a very non-spaghetti trait.


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: spag fan on December 21, 2004, 06:45:04 AM
Oops, no diss intended to spag fan, I was more trying to express how I reacted to seeing Johnny Guitar after hearing about it as this profound, mold-breaking movie in certain circles.  The fact that I'm not a fan of any of the leads probably biases me also.

No offense taken derringdo. I realize Johnny Guitar isn't for everyone. I like elements of it while hating other parts of it. Overall though, I think it's a worthwhile film. Luckily Leone did too apparantly. I certainly wouldn't call it boring by any stretch of the imagination though. It's certainly not your run of the mill western.


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: spag fan on December 21, 2004, 06:50:13 AM
the two women characters are horrible; after watching, I wanted to kill the two actresses.

Ha! Apparantly they wanted to kill each other as well. Reportedly Joan Crawford scattered Mercedes McCambridges' wardrobe on the side of the highway while filming. They couldn't stand each other. All that hatred really came through.

Mercede's voice really got on my nerves! I did a little research and found, as derringdo mentioned, that she supplied the voice for Pazuzu, the demon in The Exorcist! No wonder!


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: KERMIT on December 21, 2004, 09:36:22 AM
Ha! Apparantly they wanted to kill each other as well. Reportedly Joan Crawford scattered Mercedes McCambridges' wardrobe on the side of the highway while filming. They couldn't stand each other. All that hatred really came through.

Mercede's voice really got on my nerves! I did a little research and found, as derringdo mentioned, that she supplied the voice for Pazuzu, the demon in The Exorcist! No wonder!
yea,lol, i remember reading about that "falling out"
joan had with mercedes. took the crew a long time to get back to production and disrupted things considerable.
i wonder what's was up with that ?


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: dave jenkins on February 01, 2009, 10:29:51 AM
Interesting write-up on the film, its production and exhibition, over at Greenbriars (posted 1/12/09):

Quote
The era of responsible westerns may have ended with The Bravados. Revenge themes were frowned upon by the Code. You could seek justice for killings, but getting even for its own sake was verboten. By 1958, restrictions were sufficiently loosened as to allow Randolph Scott to ride vigilante style through an economy western like Seven Men From Now, but this wouldn't do for Bravados director Henry King, a veteran since silents who’d applauded restrictions and happily worked within them. King was a deeply conservative filmmaker with studio granted freedom sufficient to invest projects with a highly individual sense of rights and wrongs as he saw them. Few mainstream features went so deep into their director’s head as The Bravados. King was past seventy when he made it, a helmsman since 1915. He was to Fox what DeMille had been to Paramount. No one challenged his authority nor questioned creative control from inception to release. King made it clear he’d not direct The Bravados without major alterations to the script. He felt strongly that revenge, as a guiding principle, was both pointless and morally wrong. If that were not emphasized in The Bravados, he’d have no part of it. A third-act reversal King developed was indeed something new in westerns, one that would shame viewers for shared bloodlust with Gregory Peck’s morose lead character. Could that have limited the boxoffice? Expectations for July 4 and continuing summer business were naturally high. The Gunfighter from this team had performed well and continued doing so in reissues, despite its own downbeat ending, but westerns now were engaged in daily showdown with television, and only the strongest survived. The Bravados had a negative cost of $2.1 million, nearly twice the cost of The Gunfighter, and earned domestic rentals of $1.8 million, a losing proposition rescued by foreign rentals of $2.8 million. The final profit, albeit disappointing, was $159,000.

I don’t think you could find a story like "The Bravados" anywhere else but here, on the Cinemascope screen of your theatre, says Gregory Peck in the trailer he narrates, and so he’s right to the extent of adult themes beyond permissive boundaries of television as of 1958. That was the comparison intended, of course, and a pointed one to remind us that indeed there were no surprises left on the tube at home. Westerns had exploited sex before. There was The Outlaw and Duel In The Sun, but here was one to confront taboo topics of rape and revenge and call them by name. This was queasy subject matter, but unavailable among TV cowboys, and expensive westerns by this time needed size (The Big Country) or nerve (Man Of The West was another with harsh sex content) to compete. Gregory Peck as avenging angel for the rape/murder of his wife was itself unexpected. Could The Bravados follow through on such a premise with the Production Code still operative? As things turned out, it would not. Eleventh hour edits and discreet cutaways avoid confrontation with Peck as a killer in cold blood. We’re never sure just how some of his quarry met their finish. He confesses later to having killed three men, but two are not shown dying at Peck’s hand, and a third appears, by way of a confused edit, to draw first. It’s as though cooler (censorial?) heads prevailed and punches were pulled, so as to spare Peck following through on what his stated mission promised. Someone blinked here. Maybe it was director King, or an intrusive Code, or perhaps Gregory Peck in defense of his image. Either way, The Bravados, good as it is, was compromised. Within another decade, we’d have no such moral reservation with Lee Van Cleef squaring familial accounts in For A Few Dollars More. Indeed, a sixties (and beyond) audience would feel cheated by heroes showing the slightest hesitation over matters of taking revenge, preferring they do so in brutal accordance with wrongs done them.

Limited availability and inadequate presentation on occasions when they could be seen circumscribed the afterlife of pictures like The Bravados. Fox Cinemascope may have looked good in theatres, but they wouldn’t again for many years to come. Nothing adapted so poorly to television as movies shot through anamorphic lenses. The Bravados was sold to NBC for home premiere on the new Monday Night at the Movies, a 1962-63 expansion of Fox’s relationship with the network which saw much of its top 50’s product reaching audiences far larger than had ventured out to them in theatres. In this instance, The Bravados played middle position in a three-week punch-out of competitor CBS, which until that season had dominated primetime programming on Mondays. NBC ran The Enemy Below, The Bravados, and Heaven Knows, Mr. Allison against the weekly lineup of To Tell the Truth, I've Got a Secret, The Lucy Show and The Danny Thomas Show and according to TIME magazine, blew CBS out of the water. It was dawn upon the era of recent Hollywood movies as ammunition in network wars, and viewers made it known they preferred features, so long as star names were familiar and broadcast was free. NBC's Hollywood movies were obviously as superior to CBS's TV shows as the old ironclads were to the wooden gunboats, said TIME, but where were voices noting how inferior said cropped casualties looked once transplanted to inhospitable home screens? Now that we’re getting accustomed to wide televisions, I wonder if even casual viewers would sit for pan-and-scan abuses such as were visited upon The Bravados and its kin over so many years. DVD release and showings on the Fox Movie Channel have finally made The Bravados (properly)available again as margins close on Fox Cinemascope titles unaccounted for in the digital recovery. Among worthy westerns still waiting, From Hell To Texas stands out, coincidentally another one that ran during that 1962-63 NBC season (which is when I last saw it). There’s still a number of wide features from the 50’s needing to be put right, and a lot of these will see critical reputations made (or restored) when that time comes. A humble suggestion to Fox for next year's deluxe box set and follow-up to Ford and Murnau/Borgaze might be a collection of all the remaining unreleased early Cinemascope titles. There would be a signal event for 2009!


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: cigar joe on February 01, 2009, 06:07:18 PM
Nice article, I want to see "From Hell To Texas" & "Rio Conchos" with wide screen releases.


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: dave jenkins on February 01, 2009, 07:30:33 PM
Indeed.


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: T.H. on September 13, 2009, 10:15:58 AM
This is a near masterpiece, maybe full blown, will have to give a second view to determine. While I was expecting a twist of some sort, it was executed perfectly and injected such a twisted, convoluted sense of morality into the film and Peck's character. Even though it was said that this film was made in protest of McCarthy-ism, you're hardly feeling anything intellectual at the film's conlcusion, more like raw emotion. The Bravados is everything High Noon wished it could be.

I'd probably place this in my top 10 AWs, possibly top 5. Yeah, it starts a little slow, features some goofy "underwater blue" day for night visuals, but the proto-godfather chirstening scene was gorgeous. And was this the first time we hear operatic music in a western film? There are also some really nice landscapes.

This film is way more influential on FAFDM (and Leone in general) than Frayling has ever let on. The pocket watch w/ the picture, the music, the tone, everything.

9/10


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: dave jenkins on September 13, 2009, 04:57:00 PM
This film is way more influential on FAFDM (and Leone in general) than Frayling has ever let on. The pocket watch w/ the picture, the music, the tone, everything.
9/10
The Catholicism?


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: T.H. on September 13, 2009, 05:20:47 PM
lol

Well, not everything.


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: titoli on October 13, 2009, 01:23:14 PM
I have half a suspicion that this was instrumental in giving Van Cleef the part of the Colonel, more than High Noon. Leone probably didn't want people in as to his sources after FOD. And why Joan Collins wasn't half as sexy as she was going to be 30 years later is a mystery, maybe a question of make-up of her rotundity of face? Anyway a great movie. 9\10


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: The Firecracker on February 03, 2010, 11:18:57 PM
I like how epic they make it look with this promo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG7QQvGX0PQ

 O0


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 04, 2011, 05:19:13 AM
Just saw the movie...  a really good watch. This is the 3rd Gregory Peck Western I have seen (plus How the West Was Won): the other 2 are The Gunfighter and Yellow Sky, and I've gotta say that Peck is as good a Western hero/gunslinger as any


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: Groggy on April 04, 2011, 08:44:27 AM
Yeah it's pretty excellent. O0


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 04, 2011, 09:40:09 AM
I have to disagree with T.H above; I am fairly certain that Frayling has mentioned The Bravados' references in Leone films, both in STDWD and in the dvd commentary to FAFDM.

SPOILER ALERT


The one (minor) issue I had with the film is that you figure out pretty early that those 4 are not guilty of killing Peck's wife; I wish they had kept that more subtle, as a surprise closer to the end of the film; I wish we wouldn't have realized it until the Peck character himself did....


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: T.H. on April 05, 2011, 01:30:38 PM
...Post proof?

Whether or not he gives this movie credit - I don't remember any references in STDWD - Frayling leaves out a lot of films that clearly influenced Leone. That's not s knock against him, I enjoy his work.


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 05, 2011, 02:12:04 PM
1. on the FAFDM dvd commentary, in the scene of Mortimer's duel with Wild, Frayling notes that the Mortimer character can be considered something of an amalgamation of prior Van Cleef characters, considering the pocketwatch with the picture from The Bravados, and the hidden derringer (which his character had Gunfight at OK Corral had)

2. From STDWD:

p. 173 (discussing FAFDM):

"If the key Hollywood influence on Fistful was Shane, the model this time around was Vera Cruz.... Another important influence was Henry King's The Bravados (1958), in which black-clad Gregory Peck tracks down four convicts whom he thinks killed his wife and child, and shows them a picture of his wife, in a pocket-watch, just before he executes them."

(btw, Frayling has it backwards; it was only Peck's wife who was killed, but the picture in the pocket-watch is of his wife and kid).

p. 184 (discussing Lee Van Cleef's performances in Westerns prior to FAFDM):

"In The Bravados he'd been hunted through the tall grass by the obsessed Jim Douglas (Gregory Peck), who proceeded to show him a photo inside a pocket-watch to jog his memory before shooting him dead. Van Cleef had not made a film since 1962. But those Westerns had lodged in Leone's mind; he could recite whole passages from The Bravados as if they were performance poetry.

p. 185

"He (Van Cleef) was impressed that this Italian film director knew so much about High Noon and The Bravados, but did not appear to notice that the Colonel's chiming watch, with his sister's photograph, was directly derived from the latter film. Characteristically, Leone had chosen Van Cleef for visual reasons, and cinematic associations....."



Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: Groggy on April 05, 2011, 02:51:25 PM
...Post proof?

Whether or not he gives this movie credit - I don't remember any references in STDWD - Frayling leaves out a lot of films that clearly influenced Leone. That's not s knock against him, I enjoy his work.

I don't have Something To Do With Death but he does spend a sentence or two talking about the parallels between FAFDM and The Bravados, making special note of Lee Van Cleef's presence in both.


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 05, 2011, 03:44:35 PM
I don't have Something To Do With Death but he does spend a sentence or two talking about the parallels between FAFDM and The Bravados, making special note of Lee Van Cleef's presence in both.

I keep my copy of STDWD near me at all times. I owe Frayling a great debt for opening the world of Leone to me :)


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: Groggy on April 05, 2011, 04:06:41 PM
I regret to say I threw my copy away awhile ago. It was getting pretty beat-up and all attempts to hold the cover together failed.


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 05, 2011, 04:15:43 PM
I own my copy for less than a year, but considering the frequency with which I reference it, it'll probably suffer the same fate as yours...  ;)


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: Groggy on April 05, 2011, 04:42:14 PM
I own my copy for less than a year, but considering the frequency with which I reference it, it'll probably suffer the same fate as yours...  ;)

Definitely. The problem for me is finding an affordable replacement.


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on April 05, 2011, 05:07:03 PM
yeah, they aren't cheap, but you can get used copies off Amazon for under $20 (before shipping costs). I wish they'd have printed STDWD in hardcover. I know it is a very big book and would be expensive as a hardcover, but at least it would last...

-------------------------------


btw, I easily found the above info RE: STDWD's mentions of The Bravados using the Index in back of that book. It lists every movie (and person, among other nouns) mentioned in the book, and the page number on which that particular item is mentioned. Eg. it says "The Bravados (film) 173, 184, 185."
I have found the Index in STDWD to be very useful  O0


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: T.H. on April 12, 2011, 08:31:57 PM
Thanks for posting the links. I stand corrected on The Bravados.


Title: Re: The Bravados (1958)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 16, 2012, 11:01:57 PM
Just watched FAFDM with Frayling's commentary again, and there is yet another time he mentions The Bravados: at 15:17 of the movie (during the scene where Monco is playing cards with Red Cavanaugh), Frayling says that Leone acknowledged that FAFDM was a homage to Vera Cruz and The Bravados