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Films of Sergio Leone => Other Films => Topic started by: cigar joe on November 19, 2005, 10:44:19 AM



Title: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: cigar joe on November 19, 2005, 10:44:19 AM
Watched it this morning, first impressions not that bad, a bit campy but Lee Van Cleef comports himself well as ex sheriff Clayton, Alberto Dentice as Phillip Wermeer the wanted man with $3000 on his head, Horst Frank as patriarch Saxon, Marc Mazza as the homosexual Saxon brother Eli (a real flamer in this flick, dressed in white, fedora hat, silk scarf that uses to shield violence scenes  from his eyes (he also twitters around  the set a bit) , and KLaus Grunberg as the Sherriff Adam Saxon. The film also has a familar face from GBU  Antonio Casale (Jackson/Bill Carson) as the bounty hunter named Hole. The story is average, the music is very good, its not up there in the top films but its way better than Van Cleef's, Bad Man's River & Captian Apache. I'll go into more later.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Leone Admirer on November 19, 2005, 12:07:30 PM
How is Wild East's presentation of film Joe? I am mighty tempted in picking up the Cleef Double Collection.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: HEX on November 19, 2005, 02:09:39 PM
watched my copy of the GRAND DUEL from wild east last night. 

THE GOOD

the opening of the film captures youre interest immediatly with its very strange set. u have never quite  seen a spag west scene like this before. the terrain seems to be on a mountain and great pillars of rock jet out from the ground. on the set is a small town where a few bounty hunters are hiding in the shadows of every corner waiting to capture there prey that has been in hiding with a prostitute in a barn(or hotel room. cant really tell). in comes sheriff CLAYTON(VAN CLEEF) on a stagcoach. he enters the town bypassing the onlooking bounty hunters. it is funny to see this because he seems to know where all of them are. one of the hunters attempts to shoot him from the side, and without even looking CLAYTON waves his hand in a "no" gesture towards him. i will not  spoil the plot anymore.

the film has wonderfully choreographed shoot outs and gundowns, some of the best i have seen in this genre.

the theme of the film is one of the best of the genre.

VAN CLEEF plays a slightly different role in the film. he not really an anti-hero. he is not going around and killing for his own benefit. he is very righteous unlike his former characters(which was nice to see)

the villians are as evil as they come. on a good mention one of them is obviously gay and has marks on his face(that is either scares from a fight or picked out acne). he uses his tie for weird reasons, for example in one scene he shoots somebody and uses the tie to shoo away the gun smoke from his nose.

PETER O BRIAN does a fine job as a wrongfully accused outlaw which CLAYTON is tryting to help. i thought he was going to be an annoying side-kick to VAN CLEEF, but thankfully he wasnt. in fact much of the movie they are at odds with eachother.

the audio quality is very good(compared to WILD EAST'S DAY OF ANGER release.)

the film has a nice mystery element to it. like a "who done it" type scenario. it is a bit predictable but it is nice to have in a genre that is pretty much void of that type of twist.



THE BAD

one of the few things i disliked about the film was the length. it was way to short. i was not timing it but it could have not been more then an hour and 40 minutes.
i would have like to see at least a two hour feature, that way we would have more time for character developement.

VAN CLEEF doesnt really do much killing. so if u are expecting VAN CLEEF to shoot some one every five minutes stay away from this. with the exception of the opening scene and the end VAN CLEEF pretty much just sits around looking cool and building up beef between himself and the bad guys(though this is not a bad thing at all). PETER O BRIAN and the villians do much of the killing here.

the showdown at the end is a bit of a let down. through out the film u get these fabulously staged gun fights, so u expect a lot coming youre way when the final showdown comes around, but u dont really get it. u just get a standard showdown(with great music)

THE DVD
another mixed-bag from WILD EAST for me. it is wonderfully presented as opposed to the copies of this film flying around i am sure, but i still think WILD EAST can do much better. the audio is sometimes drowned by music and there are various "static" type scratches every now and again, but otherwise they did a fine job.
but i still cannot help but notice how well BLUE UNDERGROUND did there spag transfers. why cant WILD EAST keep up? is it because they dont have the equipment? are they less skilled? what gives? if BLUE UNDERGROUND did a dvd of this film i am sure it would look much nicer in there hands.
as for special features...well there are none. unless u count a trailer for the film and some pictures of posters.
they could at least put subtitles. that would have been nice.



OVER ALL
one of the best sw's out there. i was suffering "spaghetti fatigue" for a while but this film cured me of it with its differences that sets it apart from the rest of the genre. well worth having in youre spaghetti western collection.



Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: cigar joe on November 20, 2005, 04:08:50 PM
Its title sequence is a bit washed out but the rest of the film is a pretty good transfer, didn't notice any obvious scratches, or print damage, and the sound was good.

The only two negatives that jump out upon furter reflection is the first gunbattle has a bit of a swashbuckeler feel to it where the Phillip Vermeer character uses a two wheel cart & a falling body with him standing on the wagon tree that when the body hits catapults him over a wall, a bit of a stretch. Also Eli mows down a religious sect with what looks like a WWII machine gun. I'll go into more detail with a full review later.

I'll be watching Beyond the Law tonight.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: HEX on November 20, 2005, 04:20:42 PM
i am watching BEYOND THE LAW as we speak.


i shall review it as soon as it is finished.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: dave jenkins on November 20, 2005, 07:50:13 PM
Hex, why aren't you posting this in the Other Films area? In fact, Cigar Joe just started a thread there on this very title?


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: HEX on November 20, 2005, 09:11:09 PM
Hex, why aren't you posting this in the Other Films area? In fact, Cigar Joe just started a thread there on this very title?

sorry, this was posted last night after i found out JOE had posted his own review. i cant move it now. we will have to get a moderator to move. but i think it is a little un important.


any for BEYOND THE LAW. i was very surprised at how much i enjoyed it. i own the really crappy vhs version(where u cannot see a thing) and i absolutley hated it when i saw it. it is funny how a nice pristine copy of it can change my mind. and this is very pristine indeed. there is not a scratch on it. it is better presented then the GRAND DUEL(found on the other side of the disc).
while i dont think it is great i do believe it is worth a buy.
it suffers from lack of action, in fact there is absolutly no action at all until the very end of the film(with the exception of a stagcoach chase) but that is part of what makes the film good. it is a character piece, not a shoot em up. VAN CLEEF is nice to see doing an emotionally charged character though there are some cringe worthy moments in his acting in a few points in the film.

i liked it very much and it will be getting a higher ranking on my SPAG collection. the only thing that bothered me with the presentation was that out of no where it switches to itailian with subtitles(apparently a deleted scene) for a pretty long scene. now normally i would not care but it comes without warning. there was no disclaimer in the begining saying that this would happen unlike the ANCHOR BAY and BLUE UNDERGROUND releases.

another thing had a problem with was that i found two words mispelled on the subtitles(one of them was BROTHER. they spelled it BORTHER ;D) while this is a minor gripe it was funny to see because i have never seen that on a dvd before. how careless. and only for what? two scenes? u could not double check on it?


any way as a whole the dvd of  LEE VAN CLEEF double pack is a welcomed addition to youre sw collection. with THE GRAND DUEL being the better of the two films.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on November 21, 2005, 02:48:56 AM
Hex,i also like Grand Duel a lot.It's the last SW performance in which LVC looked really cool and his best SW of the seventies.
Beyond the Law is only ok and is probably LVC's worst SW of the sixties!


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on November 21, 2005, 05:18:17 AM
Leone Admirer,if i were you i'd wait for ITV4(assuming you have access to cable or satelite) to show The Grand Duel as part of their SW seaon.Eveything shown so far has been a decent print and in widescreen.As regards Beyond The Law-this is nowhere near as good a film as the Grand Duel!


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Leone Admirer on November 21, 2005, 06:53:51 AM
Thanks for the advice banjo. I'll wait till they show it.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Leone Admirer on November 21, 2005, 07:05:39 AM
Just to check, are the Wild East releases of these films anamorphic?


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on November 21, 2005, 08:40:52 AM
Thats OK Leone Admirer,according to Alex Cox's diary My Name is Nobody and Bullet for the General are also due to be shown but i'm sure you have these already.
But there are another 4 (out of a total of 9) that we don't know about still,unless Marco has found out any more?


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Marco Leone on November 21, 2005, 01:50:33 PM
But there are another 4 (out of a total of 9) that we don't know about still,unless Marco has found out any more?

No, I haven't managed to find out..... yet!


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: HEX on November 21, 2005, 04:15:10 PM
Just to check, are the Wild East releases of these films anamorphic?

no they are not.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: cigar joe on November 21, 2005, 09:22:11 PM
The Grand Duel (1972 ) dir. Giancarlo Santi with ,Lee Van Cleef, Alberto Dentice as Phillip Wermeer the wanted man with $3000 on his head ( a role better suited to Tomas Milian) , Horst Frank as patriarch Saxon, Marc Mazza as the homosexual Saxon brother Eli (a real flamer in this flick, dressed in white, fedora hat, silk scarf that uses to shield violence scenes  from his eyes (he also twitters around  the set a bit) , and KLaus Grunberg as the Sherriff Adam Saxon. The film also has a familar face from GBU  Antonio Casale (Jackson/Bill Carson) as the bounty hunter named Hole.

Of the two films on this Wild East DVD this one has that familiar Spaghetti Western cachet attached to it. Lee Van Cleef provides all of the picaresque iconic qualifications the film could want but it still feels somewhat tired, as if they went to the well once too often. It seems as if Lee Van Cleef and is there to lend legitimacy to the other players who don’t quite measure up to enter that western valhala that Van Cleef, Eastwood, Nero, Wallach, Milian, Bronson, Fonda, loom large in. This film tries hard to elevate the rest of the cast of eccentric charaters( which seems to have a high proportion of German actors) but it just doesn’t quite achieve that goal. It may have helped to have a few more big name American actors and more of the familiar SW regulars and extras that we are all familiar with.

There is a great little vignette of a checker game between two minor characters, played with shot glasses full of liquor that was pretty cool and more of this type of stuff would have been great, but the director seems more of a good journeyman type of director somebody that can get the job done rather than an artistic director with some personal style. You had this sort of cat & mouse going on between Van Cleef and, but it had a slightly forced feel to it that made it not that believable. There are a lot of the right elements in the film but for some reason or other they just don’t fit together right. Or perhaps its just the manifistaion on the screen of how tired the genre was becoming. Its like a SW that’s a bit off. What really holds the whole film together is the haunting score by Bacalov which is very good.

The actual town sets weren’t too bad and gave a bit of a different flavor to the film than what you usually expect in a SW. You didn’t get a lot of scenic background vista shots it almost looks as if a lot of the film was shot in a big gravel pit so you get a lot of down camera angles, I’m suspecting this film was shot mostly if not all in Italy. Even the "Grand Duel" in the corral at the end had more of an Italian than Spanish look to the countryside.

The story is very Spaghetti-esque, again a bit campy with a bit of shawsbuckeler action thrown in, bad guy Eli Saxon  is portrayed as a decadent flaming homosexual who actually jumps up on his tippy toes when he shoots an old man who's on his knees in front of him. Then when a gunbattle breaks out uses his scarf to daintilly shield his eyes. You have to chuckle at this film. There is a wierd sequence where a religious sect after one of its members is gunned down takes off what seems to be their wooden clogs and as a group slaps them together in unison at the Patriarch Saxson. This film is a must for Van Cleef fans, he does his familiar "Old Man-Colonel Mortimer" shtick once again and probably for the final time.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on November 22, 2005, 02:01:24 AM
Marco Leone,you're not slacking,are you?


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Leone Admirer on November 22, 2005, 06:02:06 AM
I still can't believe that Wild East arn't releasing anamorphic scope films. I thought the age of non-anamorphics had long past. And its not like they've never done it before, look at Pistoleros. It makes no sense to me  ???


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on November 22, 2005, 06:38:48 AM
Does non-anamorphic mean this is not widescreen?-sorry i'm not very much in the know about all these different picture ratio's!
Even my very scratchy copy of Grand Duel on the 4 on 1 LVC DVD is widescreen!Hopefully ITV4 will be screening a pristine print in full widescreen very soon!


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: HEX on November 22, 2005, 09:08:04 AM
The Grand Duel (1972 ) dir. Giancarlo Santi with ,Lee Van Cleef, Alberto Dentice as Phillip Wermeer the wanted man with $3000 on his head ( a role better suited to Tomas Milian) , Horst Frank as patriarch Saxon, Marc Mazza as the homosexual Saxon brother Eli (a real flamer in this flick, dressed in white, fedora hat, silk scarf that uses to shield violence scenes  from his eyes (he also twitters around  the set a bit) , and KLaus Grunberg as the Sherriff Adam Saxon. The film also has a familar face from GBU  Antonio Casale (Jackson/Bill Carson) as the bounty hunter named Hole.

Of the two films on this Wild East DVD this one has that familiar Spaghetti Western cachet attached to it. Lee Van Cleef provides all of the picaresque iconic qualifications the film could want but it still feels somewhat tired, as if they went to the well once too often. It seems as if Lee Van Cleef and is there to lend legitimacy to the other players who don’t quite measure up to enter that western valhala that Van Cleef, Eastwood, Nero, Wallach, Milian, Bronson, Fonda, loom large in. This film tries hard to elevate the rest of the cast of eccentric charaters( which seems to have a high proportion of German actors) but it just doesn’t quite achieve that goal. It may have helped to have a few more big name American actors and more of the familiar SW regulars and extras that we are all familiar with.

There is a great little vignette of a checker game between two minor characters, played with shot glasses full of liquor that was pretty cool and more of this type of stuff would have been great, but the director seems more of a good journeyman type of director somebody that can get the job done rather than an artistic director with some personal style. You had this sort of cat & mouse going on between Van Cleef and, but it had a slightly forced feel to it that made it not that believable. There are a lot of the right elements in the film but for some reason or other they just don’t fit together right. Or perhaps its just the manifistaion on the screen of how tired the genre was becoming. Its like a SW that’s a bit off. What really holds the whole film together is the haunting score by Bacalov which is very good.

The actual town sets weren’t too bad and gave a bit of a different flavor to the film than what you usually expect in a SW. You didn’t get a lot of scenic background vista shots it almost looks as if a lot of the film was shot in a big gravel pit so you get a lot of down camera angles, I’m suspecting this film was shot mostly if not all in Italy. Even the "Grand Duel" in the corral at the end had more of an Italian than Spanish look to the countryside.

The story is very Spaghetti-esque, again a bit campy with a bit of shawsbuckeler action thrown in, bad guy Eli Saxon  is portrayed as a decadent flaming homosexual who actually jumps up on his tippy toes when he shoots an old man who's on his knees in front of him. Then when a gunbattle breaks out uses his scarf to daintilly shield his eyes. You have to chuckle at this film. There is a wierd sequence where a religious sect after one of its members is gunned down takes off what seems to be their wooden clogs and as a group slaps them together in unison at the Patriarch Saxson. This film is a must for Van Cleef fans, he does his familiar "Old Man-Colonel Mortimer" shtick once again and probably for the final time.



good review but ADAM SAXON is the flaming homosexual not ELI.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Sundance on November 22, 2005, 10:26:28 AM
Black bars will of course remain if the aspect ratio of the movie is 2.35:1.

For example with PAL discs the image on the discs is in resolution 720x576 (which isn't in the correct aspect ratio, but the player will know how to display it correctly).

If a 1.85:1 aspect ratio movie is non-anamorphic, it will be stored on the disc like this http://www.sundances.net/spaghetti/screenshots/851.jpg
while an anamorphic version would be stored like this http://www.sundances.net/spaghetti/screenshots/852.jpg

As you can see, with non-anamorphic the black bars are part of the picture, while in anamorphic all the resolution and encoding is used for the movie image itself. When played in a widescreen tv, the player has to only make the anamorphic image wider, while with non-anamorphic the tv needs to zoom the image both vertically and horizontally to make the bars go away.
And the quality difference between anamorphic and non-anamorphic is significant when watched with widescreen tv.
Same with projectors I think, which seem to already be very common in where I live. Non-anamorphic apparently looks like crap.

With regular tvs it doesn't matter, although some old tvs might not be able to display the anamorphic material properly and of course you can't get rid of the black bars.

And with 2.35:1 movies the non-anamorphic image looks like this http://www.sundances.net/spaghetti/screenshots/2351.jpg
while anamorphic is like this http://www.sundances.net/spaghetti/screenshots/2352.jpg

As you can see there are a little bit of black bars in the anamorphic image as well, which I guess is because the DVD technology is aimed at the 16:9 aspect ratio (which the widescreen tvs use... and 16:9 is actually 1.78:1 and not 1.85:1 which many movies use, but the 1.85:1 image usually seems to fit the screen well because the overscan of the tv hides parts of the picture... or because sometimes when the dvd is made they decide to crop the image to 1.78:1 and claim its 1.85:1 ;) ) and so when the player again makes the image wide, it will be shown at the correct aspect ratio in the widescreen tv. And with non-anamorphic the tv again needs to zoom the image vertically and horizontally.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: cigar joe on November 22, 2005, 05:14:54 PM
Thats the first time I've noticed Horst in a film so you are probably right, and you are probably right Hex on the Eli-Adam switcheroo.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: HEX on November 22, 2005, 06:24:01 PM
No problem Joe, it is true that Grand Duel doesn't have many Leone alumni (someone told me that there's some overlap between the DYS people in stagecoach and the Grand Duel people in stagecoach, but I don't know if that's true).  The one who plays Eli, the Saxon sheriff, has a small role in the Sergio Sollima thriller Revolver, btw.

And although it's easy to tell the Saxon brothers apart, it's hard to remember which name goes w/ whom, so don't feel bad about that.

One person on the SWWB speculated that the three brothers were supposed to represent parts of the human mind: the political bro=ego; the sheriff=superego, the facade the ego puts on for others; the gay sadistic one=id.


funny u should mention that the three brothers are somewhat symbols of something. on my third viewing of the film i began to think that there names are taken from the bible. i know DAVID, and ADAM are characters in the bible but i am not sure on ELI. i didnt think this would be far off since itailians seem to put religious images or suggest religion in some way in most sw's


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on November 23, 2005, 05:30:09 AM
Thanks for the information guys,it's all very technical!


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on December 07, 2005, 06:52:11 AM
ITV4 will be screening their 8th SW in the season The Big Showdown aka The Grand Duel on Christmas Day at 11.45pm.
Only one more to go but what will it be?


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Leone Admirer on December 07, 2005, 07:50:36 AM
That sounds like worth setting the old PVR for. Me thinks I'll be a little busy on Christmas Day!


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on December 07, 2005, 08:04:27 AM
Its gonna be a very long day waiting up for this fantastic Xmas pressie at such a late hour,considering there is absolutely nothing else on the terrestial channels(i no longer subscibe to Sky) film-wise anyway-what happened to the Xmas Day Bond Film?
By the way,do you think Daniel Craig is a very crap choice as the new Bond because among other things he's too ugly?


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Leone Admirer on December 07, 2005, 08:16:06 AM
At first I liked him, I tend to keep up with Bond as much as I can, but now I think he will be the worse Bond. Why, oh why did they treat Brosnan so badly, he wanted to do this last one.  ::). By the way. I went to the premiere of Richard Shepards excellent film The Matador starring Pierce as a drunken assasin thats over the hill. I think its brilliant.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on December 07, 2005, 08:25:24 AM
Before i switched over to tape Trinity last Sunday,i watched a bit of a World War One trench drama starring Daniel Craig.I just couldn't warm to the guy,although i can't remember seeing him in anything else.However you just need to see a few photo stills to know he's not Bond.I hope for the brilliant Brosmans sake that Casino Royale turns out to be a total turkey and a box office disaster!


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Leone Admirer on December 07, 2005, 08:41:50 AM
I hate the film your talking about (The Trench) I think it does a poor job of telling a human/war story.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: indio on December 07, 2005, 10:49:49 AM
of course the grand duel is on i just bought it!


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Leone Admirer on December 07, 2005, 12:47:22 PM
Most of my entire spaghetti collection has presented itself on ITV 4, its like they've been looking in my purchase section of Amazon and XPloited. hmmm...


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Leone Admirer on December 07, 2005, 12:49:21 PM
Before i switched over to tape Trinity last Sunday,i watched a bit of a World War One trench drama starring Daniel Craig.I just couldn't warm to the guy,although i can't remember seeing him in anything else.However you just need to see a few photo stills to know he's not Bond.I hope for the brilliant Brosmans sake that Casino Royale turns out to be a total turkey and a box office disaster!

But sadly I fear Brosnan will to be too old when EON and Sony realise that they fumbled the ball with Daniel. Lets give him the benefit of the doubt, now the new Doctor Who, Tennant, I don't like the look of at all. Whilst I wasn't a big fan of this new series, the last episode was just ugh and Piper fails to impress me, I liked Ecclestone and I think Tennant will be rubbish.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on December 08, 2005, 03:15:50 AM
Most of my entire spaghetti collection has presented itself on ITV 4, its like they've been looking in my purchase section of Amazon and XPloited. hmmm...
In that case can you buy some more that i haven't got?


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Leone Admirer on December 08, 2005, 06:32:52 AM
Your actively encouraging me to go out and spend money on some spaghetti's. wahoo! "Banjo, I think this could be the start of a beautiful friendship."


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on December 08, 2005, 08:26:18 AM
Well definately yes if i can tip off ITV4 about your every purchase so i can then tape it from them in the second (pretty please)SW season!!


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Leone Admirer on December 13, 2005, 10:57:22 AM
Also noticed that Once Upon A Time In The West (my favourite film of Leone and my personal number 1) i showing on ITV 1 after boxing day I believe.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on December 25, 2005, 06:05:07 AM
Don't drink too much today and fall asleep everone in the UK.I'm really looking forward to seeing and taping this one tonight together with the Alex Cox bit!!!


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on December 26, 2005, 03:24:44 AM
I am well chuffed with this good quality widescreen "Big Showdown" version of the movie and i am sure there are a few snipets of footage (up to 5 minutes?)that are missing from the Grand Duel version including the extended scene where Adam Saxon machine guns down Phillip Vemeers folk on the other side of the mountain,and some nudity that wasn't there before.
    Interestingly Alex Cox mentions that director Giancarlo Santi was originally slotted in to direct Duck You Sucker,which he argues isn't very good,and says that on evidence of the action scenes in Big Showdown,Santi would have made a better job of DYS!!
My opinion is that despite some great set pieces in DYS that DYS is definately saved from its slow paceness by Morricones best ever score and the strength of the lead performances,especially Coburn.
     Is there really only one more sw to come in this ITV4 season?-i'd better email them for more!!!


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Marco Leone on December 26, 2005, 02:53:54 PM
Incase its not been printed elsewhere..... Keoma is next up.  They have made a good choice of films (albeit ones that I have seen - but I guess I'm being greedy hoping for a few hidden gems).


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: finisterre on January 01, 2006, 05:28:45 PM
Hi Guys,

I've been religiously recording the Cox intros to the ITV4 S/W season, but my Sky+ died over Xmas.

Could anybody help me get a copy of the Cox Intro to "The Big Showdown" aka "The Gerand Duel"?

I've got all the others if I can help in return.

Thanks.

Fred.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Leone Admirer on February 01, 2006, 05:18:11 AM
I was browsing the spaghetti western webboard the other day and I came across a post indicating there was footage missing from Wild East's release of The Grand Duel. However it didn't say which footage was missing and I was wondering if people here know what footage it is. I know from my disc that there is a scene in the trailer thats not in the film but that occurs often in other films but it would be nice to know what is actually missing (if anything is).


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: quesodiablo on February 01, 2006, 07:38:23 AM
Hey Leone Admirer,

I too have a version of The Grand Duel, though not the WE version, and am not sure if it is cut as well.  However, here is what Sundance put up on his site about the "missing" footage:

"The Killer at Spaghetti Western Web Board kindly made a comparison between the japanese disc and a german VHS by Toppic and noticed that the japanese disc was missing footage. With credits removed the japanese disc is 1:25:07 in length while the german VHS has a length of 1:30:20. Now the disc from Wild East has a length of about 1:25:10 when the credits have been removed so it appears to be also missing a lof of footage when compared to the german VHS.
The following is the entire post of The Killer at SWWB. Note that atleast image3 is missing from the Wild East disc [it may look as if it's there but compare it and what's on the disc].

"Il Grande Duello" (Imaciga/Sony - Japan) vs. "Drei Vaterunser für vier Halunken" (Toppic VHS)

both versions are in PAL-speed (of course the Japanese DVD is in NTSC, but the speed is 25 frames/sec, as most other macaronis from Japan)

whole running time (including credits and logos etc.):
Japanese DVD: 1:31:03,48
German VHS: 1:32:29,00

When you remove logos and credits you get this times (after Director and before End credits start (German version has no End credits):
Japanese DVD: 1:25:07,80
German VHS: 1:30:20,40
don't forget: German version misses piece of the brothel-scene.

Here's a time-code-list, based on the German VHS with the missing scenes:
2:29-2:43
4:31-4:33
many little cuts between 8:23-8:31
9:54-10:09
19:41-19:54
22:11-22:34
23:47-23:58
24:10-24:44
26:16-26:47
27:22-27:25
32:52-32:55
39:58-40:10
40:17-40:43
42:09-42:15
43:00-43:09
45:12-45:24
47:59-48:04
56:08-56:27
1:08:04-1:08:08
1:08:25-1:08:28
1:17:22-1:17:34
1:25:26-1:26:01
1:28:15-1:28:42

ANICA writes the Original Italian version runs 2744 Meters, which are in PAL-running time: 96 minutes."

http://www.sundances.net/spaghetti/grandduel.php

So I guess, like the Japanese disc, the WE version is cut pretty good.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Leone Admirer on February 01, 2006, 12:59:42 PM
Thanks quesodiablo! 5 mins missing. Wow. The screencaps showing some of the missing footage seemed to be scene extensions.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Sundance on February 02, 2006, 08:49:08 AM
I should have the Toppic VHS in my possession soon, maybe next week, so I can check the exact differences between WE disc and the VHS. :p Then again, I'm quite lazy, so who knows how long it will take. ;)


About the cut status... I have of course marked it as cut, but truth is that I'm not sure if the german VHS version has ever been available anywhere else (even if the ANICA claims original italian version to be 96mins).

What I'd like to ask is if the shorter version of GBU is cut? The longer version even has one scene which wasn't in any original theatrical versions (or was it? ) so what version is cut and what is original and what is what... ;)
Is the english version of OUATITW cut when the Italian version is 12mins longer?

Or how about Trinity Is Still My Name which might have been available only in Germany in the longest version (the e-m-s bonus disc has a version, which was shown in German theaters in 1972, which is 7minutes longer than the said to be totally uncut scandinavian disc).

The Wild East version of Grand Duel is probably the longest english version that has ever been available anywhere.
Same is probably true with their Ben & Charlie disc (which btw is also missing 2minutes compared to german version! ).
Earlier Wild East had marked their B&C disc as uncut... now it says "U.S. theatrical version". Same with Grand Duel/Beyond the law, but now it says nothing about which version those are.

But the thing is... can we call the original english GBU uncut or not? Or how about that OUATITW? If Grand Duel is longer than it ever has been outside Germany, is the disc cut or just a different version of the film?

I don't know so every film which has footage missing, which can be found on some other version, will be marked as cut on my site no matter if they are or aren't. And personally I'm a total freak concerning cuts, no matter if it's even a second missing it's a bad thing and I want that missing second! ;D

Except for GBU, because the shorter version rules and as far as I'm concerned is not cut. ;D


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on February 05, 2006, 07:05:50 AM
The think the version shown on ITV4 last December under the alternate title Big Showdown may possibly be the uncut version.Its difficult to say because i haven't watched my old scratchy Grand Duel version on a LVC 4 on 1 DVD very often but i'm sure there are a few minor additions and extended scenes on Big Showdown especially the scene where Adam machine guns down the town folk which is significantly longer.
Leone Admirer,whats the NTSC running time on the Wildeast disc?I bought a DVD recorder last week and i'm transfering my video tapes onto disc-when i do Big Showdown i'll completely edit out the commercial breaks so i'll be able to advise of the exact running time in PAL.   


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Leone Admirer on February 05, 2006, 07:53:58 AM
the NTSC running time is 1:30:36 from the start of the disc. That would be great banjo, thanks a lot  :) I forgot to add that the print seems to be the Italian version.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on February 05, 2006, 08:16:05 AM
I've just checked the NTSC running time on the DVD sleeve of my crap Grand Duel version which gives 93 minutes but i'm sure theres some extra stuff on Big Showdown-i'll make it my next task this afternoon to transfer the video version onto disc without the adverts! 


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Leone Admirer on February 05, 2006, 08:17:15 AM
thanks :)


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Sundance on February 05, 2006, 08:41:43 AM
Wild East Grand Duel runs in PAL though, as does most of their other releases.  :P

Same seems to be true for almost all, if not all, the SPO releases from Japan.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on February 05, 2006, 08:56:44 AM
Is this right because i've seen otherwise?:-
http://www.xploitedcinema.com/search.asp?search=grand+duel&SUBMIT.x=4&SUBMIT.y=10


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on February 06, 2006, 07:24:57 AM
Well it looks like my Big Showdown version is the same afterall as the Wildeast as this also clocks in around 90 minutes!


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Sundance on February 16, 2006, 09:11:17 AM
Yes, it seems as if Wild East has couple of times used either a PAL source (for example their Beyond the Law is most definitely from the french Seven 7 disc) or maybe the japanese SPO disc with Grand Duel... I know Japan has NTSC but for whatever reason SPO's discs seem to run in PAL speed as well.

The resolution and framerate with most of WE's discs (and SPO) is NTSC but the speed it runs in is PAL.

And with WE's Ben&Charlie for example, they have replaced the opening and ending credits with english credits from some US release probably but the rest of the disc is from italian print I think (as it looks very much the same as the german disc [which is 2minutes longer!!] )... thus the rest of the film runs in PAL speed except the credits are in NTSC.


About Grand Duel... I got the german VHS from Toppic now and can confirm it is longer than the WE disc. I haven't checked it much yet, but I did check that the scene from the trailer with the old man putting his bloody hand on one of the Saxon's IS PRESENT on the VHS.  8)


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Sundance on March 17, 2006, 09:52:02 AM
I went through the Toppic VHS and Wild East DVD yesterday and today and found about 50 cuts in the Wild East disc when compared to the VHS. The VHS had two cuts compared to the WE disc.

I might post some info about the cuts and even screenshots (I took a screenshot of every cut)... someday... right now I'm not feeling like going through the stuff again. I did make notes of course but the whole experience has made me very very tired. ;D


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Leone Admirer on March 17, 2006, 01:03:05 PM
Take your time Sundance but thanks so much for the effort and I can't wait to see the fruit of your labours  :)


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: The Firecracker on April 08, 2006, 03:21:42 AM
I hear the Wild east version has 7 minutes cut.
Normally I wouldnt care but this is one of my fav Van Cleef spags so I DO CARE! ;D
Sundance whatever you come up with would be a great help.
Is it true that the vhs copy of "The Big Showdown" is the full uncut version?


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on April 08, 2006, 04:03:27 AM
I like it but does anybody else think Grand Duel is a little
overated?-it doesn't really get going until the 2nd half of the film and with this movie it doesn't  hold my interest that much on repeated viewings because i know the "answer" to this detective story plot-its not very interesting or complicated like the first Sartana film.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: cigar joe on April 08, 2006, 10:46:54 AM
LVC in his last incarnation as a Mortimer look-a-like is cool, but that and the score is about it for this film.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: The Firecracker on April 08, 2006, 11:11:21 AM
I like it but does anybody else think Grand Duel is a little
overated?-it doesn't really get going until the 2nd half of the film and with this movie it doesn't  hold my interest that much on repeated viewings because i know the "answer" to this detective story plot-its not very interesting or complicated like the first Sartana film.

I dont see how it can be over-rated, It is one of those Lvc films that are never talked about. Shobary doesnt even feature it on his site! "Sabata", "Day of anger" and "Death rides a horse" get all the glory. I didnt know this film existed until well into a year of my spaghetti craze.

Banjo: how can you not like the intro??????
The whole Lee Van Cleef walking into town thing is his best introduction to a spaghetti western(outside of "For A few Dollars More").


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on April 09, 2006, 04:40:02 AM
It is a classic LVC entrance,no doubt about it,but until we get as far as meeting the Saxon brothers its only LVC(yes very cool throughout!) that is keeping this film alive!
Maybe Grand Duel is LVCs best 1970's sw but i find Stranger and the Gunfighter more fun even if LVC's not so cool here!


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: The Firecracker on April 09, 2006, 09:55:44 PM


You want to see an overrated b-list SW, take a gander at Johnny Yuma-now there's a movie that doesn't deserve either its musical score or its reputation!

Amen to that!!!!!!!


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on April 10, 2006, 07:42:03 AM
Banjo: you mean "Who Shot the Patriarch" came as a surprise to you?  Didn't to me.  ;D

You want to see an overrated b-list SW, take a gander at Johnny Yuma-now there's a movie that doesn't deserve either its musical score or its reputation!
You're right,it didn't take too much working out!!
    I can't see in any way that Johnny Yuma has been overated.Up until myself and Firecracker picking up the version on the Diamond box set all i've read about it is Marco's and Leone Admirers (yes,very positive!) write ups but Shobarys review isn't exactly gushing.Its got alot more going for it than the overhyped(on this site-though i'm waiting to see the full version) Day of Anger and it probably makes my personal top 20 sw's. 


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Leone Admirer on April 10, 2006, 01:53:14 PM
Keep in mind that was my first review and my first non Leone spaghetti, but I pretty much stand by it till this day  ;D


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: The Firecracker on April 10, 2006, 04:23:04 PM


If you ditched grim crap like the kid's gory death, dialed the irony level up slightly on the last few minutes, and showed Neri having more fun in her femme fatale mode, it might actually live up to what you, Shobary, Leone Admirer, and its 5000 fans on the SWWB have to say about it :P.

your mistaken, like me shobary was not keen on it at all.
Carradine was the only thing good that came out of the 90 minutes I spent watching the film. And the semi twilight zone ending was also well done.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Leone Admirer on April 10, 2006, 04:38:16 PM
I'm sorry guys it's only my opinion. If it helps I prefered Arizona Colt  ;D


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: The Firecracker on April 10, 2006, 04:40:41 PM
I'm sorry guys it's only my opinion. If it helps I prefered Arizona Colt  ;D

its ok. everybodies entitled to there opinion.
no matter how wrong they are ;D.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: mezcal on April 10, 2006, 04:45:11 PM
Banjo: you mean "Who Shot the Patriarch" came as a surprise to you?  Didn't to me.  ;D

i was surprised to find out it wasn't the eldest son who shot his dad. He wasn't visible at the crime scene and particularly in the saloon, LVC implies that only he and david (?) know the truth.....
AND, what was the eldest son doing at the train station hiding in a wagon........ covering the patriach or about to kill him


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: The Firecracker on April 10, 2006, 04:49:04 PM
(?) know the truth.....
AND, what was the eldest son doing at the train station hiding in a wagon........ covering the patriach or about to kill him


david was the "red herring" of the picture.

as to why he was in the wagon...

my guess is that he was there to kill LVC. notice he was aiming  at Lee from behind. But I guess David decided maybe it was best for his father to be killed so that way he could assume power.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on April 10, 2006, 05:33:05 PM
Quote from: derringdo  5000 fans on the SWWB [quote
I've never go on the SWWB but to my mind its an excellent SW-the widow is great especially in the funeral procession and the bath/parrot scene!


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: The Firecracker on April 10, 2006, 05:38:05 PM
Quote from: derringdo  5000 fans on the SWWB [quote
I've never go on the SWWB


neither do I. the site is not very user friendly


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on April 10, 2006, 05:53:07 PM
The set up looks totally crap-when i try and look at a post i'm told that i'm being redirected and nothing happens for about a minute if at all.This Other Films thread is everything the SWWB isn't!


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: The Firecracker on April 10, 2006, 05:56:28 PM
The set up looks totally crap-when i try and look at a post i'm told that i'm being redirected and nothing happens for about a minute if at all.This Other Films thread is everything the SWWB isn't!

 SWWB is a total mess. it is a wonder anybody goes on there at all. The "other films" section here is much better as Banjo said.

I have been a drifter there for a few years now, and Ive never liked the format of it at all. this board is much more sophisticated(tech wise. the people over there are as nice and welcoming as they are here).


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: cigar joe on April 10, 2006, 07:42:16 PM
A lot of good subjects with some great info just drop off the SWWB, they need some kind of search mechanism at the least


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: The Firecracker on April 10, 2006, 07:56:43 PM
A lot of good subjects with some great info just drop off the SWWB, they need some kind of search mechanism at the least
they need to re-do the whole site if you ask me. Its the pits.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: titoli on September 11, 2006, 12:16:14 PM
http://www.spaghettiwestern.altervista.org/il_grande_duello.htm

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068657/

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=2884.0


Watched it this afternoon, in a spanish spoken dvd copy, about 90' long. I liked it, though some awkeardness in the structure of the plot doesn't allow me to award it a high value (but I like it better than Beyond the Law). I like the character Van Cleef is playing and that's the main reason I like the movie, I don't like Alberto Dentice, who looks like a hippie.

I dont understand

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

why Dentice shoots at the LVC's hat making him lose time before the draw.

The score: don't share the enthusiasm for it.





Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: The Firecracker on September 11, 2006, 06:12:20 PM


SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

why Dentice shoots at the LVC's hat making him lose time before the draw.








is that what the spanish copy names him? his real name is Peter O'Brien.


SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER!

I honestly don't know why he shoots at LVC's hat either. Perhaps to frighten him to draw?


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: titoli on September 12, 2006, 09:27:43 AM
Quote
is that what the spanish copy names him? his real name is Peter O'Brien.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0219799/


Quote
I honestly don't know why he shoots at LVC's hat either. Perhaps to frighten him to draw?

The effect is that LVC turns back to see who's aiming at him and losing some precious moments which, with just average gunfighters (but the three brothers are apparently below par) would get him killed.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: The Firecracker on September 12, 2006, 01:10:34 PM
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0219799/


sorry, never realised it was an alias.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: titoli on September 12, 2006, 03:52:36 PM
I hope you will admit he looks more like Alberto Dentice than Peter O'Brien, uh?

Anyway, this mystery of the hat shooting needs an explanation.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: The Firecracker on September 12, 2006, 07:54:22 PM
I hope you will admit he looks more like Alberto Dentice than Peter O'Brien, uh?

.

Yes certainly, it just didn't cross my mind that he would be anybody else.

The hat shooting buisness and the ending of "Quien Sabe?" need to undergo some heavy anyalization here.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Sucker on September 17, 2006, 04:23:30 AM
Haven't seen this one before. Not expecting anything great but, with LVC you never know!!





Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on September 17, 2006, 09:02:43 AM
Sucker make sure you tape it!
Its pretty good and LVC is at his coolest best ;)


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: The Firecracker on September 17, 2006, 01:29:18 PM

Its pretty good

It's a solid "GOOD".
The best western he did in the 70's.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Sanjuro on September 17, 2006, 10:15:03 PM
I hope I can have an uncut version in English someday.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Sucker on September 18, 2006, 05:31:35 AM
Well, I must say that this was a very enjoyable film.  What a collection of classic SW weirdo characters. However, the whodunnit was obvious from a long way out and came as no surprise :)

The music was excellent - I recognised the main theme which is somewhere in my collection - but, strangely, they left the name "Bacalov" out of the credits. All we got was "Luis Enriquez"   

For a tabloid channel ITV4 did quite well with very few ads. The opening credits were shown in 2.35:1 format but the rest of the film was reduced to an unusual (for TV)  2:1 rather than the regular 16:9. They also allowed the final (horizontal) credits to run uninterrupted by voiceovers which always ruins FilmFour and SkyMovies presentations.

Next Sunday they're showing Texas, Addio with Franco Nero.




Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: The Firecracker on September 18, 2006, 11:04:36 AM


Next Sunday they're showing Texas, Addio with Franco Nero.



"Grand Duel" is certainly better then "Texas Adios".

"TA" seems like it will be a great thrill ride judging by the very entertaining first half hour but then it slowly goes downhill in the second act and doesn't pick up until the final gunfight (which is well done).

"TA" has some well choregraphed fist fights in it, which is something of a rare find in SW.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: mezcal on September 18, 2006, 07:46:18 PM
I've been meaning to ask this for a while. Does anyone know where big showdown was filmed, some weird looking rock formations at the beginning of the movie.
I didn't see a reference in the 2 spag books i have
ta


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: cigar joe on September 18, 2006, 10:06:16 PM
I think its an all Italia gravel pitter. ;D


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: The Firecracker on September 18, 2006, 10:11:08 PM
I think its an all Italia gravel pitter. ;D


With those large rock formations jetting out of the landscape? Doubtful.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on September 19, 2006, 10:00:25 AM
Next Sunday they're showing Texas, Addio with Franco Nero.
Sucker are you aware that ITV4 have been rotating a total of nine sw's(all originally shown last October/November)-and all introduced by Alex Cox ? :)


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: cigar joe on September 19, 2006, 08:54:44 PM
Quote
With those large rock formations jetting out of the landscape? Doubtful.


Quarry, gravel pit, similar type artificial locations.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: The Firecracker on September 19, 2006, 09:22:35 PM


Quarry, gravel pit, similar type artificial locations.


That was probably the best location in the whole film.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Sucker on September 20, 2006, 04:20:48 AM
Sucker are you aware that ITV4 have been rotating a total of nine sw's(all originally shown last October/November)-and all introduced by Alex Cox ? :)

No. We don't have ITV4 or, indeed any of the other ITV channels on our SKY EPG "naturally".  I got a list of the various frequencies recently and tuned them in myself on the "OTHER CHANNELS" facility  :)
Thanks for the tipoff, Banjo - looks like Sunday nights are booked for a while.



Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on September 22, 2006, 04:11:51 AM
No. We don't have ITV4 or, indeed any of the other ITV channels on our SKY EPG "naturally".  I got a list of the various frequencies recently and tuned them in myself on the "OTHER CHANNELS" facility  :)
Thanks for the tipoff, Banjo - looks like Sunday nights are booked for a while.


Oh what a shame! :-\
Didn't know you were in Ireland but i'm surprised that Sky don't include ITV4 over there. :(


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Sucker on September 25, 2006, 05:50:33 PM

"TA" seems like it will be a great thrill ride judging by the very entertaining first half hour but then it slowly goes downhill in the second act and doesn't pick up until the final gunfight (which is well done).

"TA" has some well choregraphed fist fights in it, which is something of a rare find in SW.

"Texas Addio"

Well, Firecracker, I nearly agree with all of this although I didn't find any of it dull. Like last week I wasn't expecting too much but was pleasantly surprised and never lost interest. I really enjoyed it and ITV4's presentation was very good again.

One thing that really made this movie for me was the score. Even the song was good to my ears.

One of my favourite SW actors Luigi Pistilli appeared in a small though important part.

Funny you should mention the fistfights. Maybe the planned choreography was well done but I have never seen so many obvious "misses" in a fistfight  :) On a few occasions even the crunch of fist on jaw was missing!!

Once again, the faces were just wonderful. The casting directors in these SW movies must have purposely scoured every casting list mugshot available to find the most extraordinary looking men.

Banjo, unfortunately that seems to be the end of this ITV run of SW's but, hopefully, they'll be shown again.

In the last three weeks I've now seen "Texas Addio" and "The Big Showdown" on TV and "Run, Man Run" on DVD. I'll probably be gunned down for this but, of the three, "Run, Man, Run" was the most disappointing. In fact, I found it boring and didn't really like it at all, at all. I'll see all of ya who disagree at the OK Corral at 6.am tomorrow morning ;D



Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: The Firecracker on September 25, 2006, 07:45:43 PM

 I'll probably be gunned down for this but, of the three, "Run, Man, Run" was the most disappointing. In fact, I found it boring and didn't really like it at all, at all. I'll see all of ya who disagree at the OK Corral at 6.am tomorrow morning ;D



Couldn't agree more, RMR drags on for way too long and like Sollima's other western "The Big Gundown" is very over hyped by fans. Check out his "Face To Face", though flawed it's certainly his best spag.



Since you caught the obvious misses in the fist fight you may not had a problem catching the part where Nero kills three guys with one bullet ;D.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on September 26, 2006, 05:46:12 AM
Banjo, unfortunately that seems to be the end of this ITV run of SW's but, hopefully, they'll be shown again.
I'm sure they will-this must be the 3rd(or 4th) time round that they've shown this season in less than a year. ::)
Shame you didn't think much of Run Man Run-maybe it'll grow on you ;)


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Sucker on September 26, 2006, 10:10:20 AM
Check out his "Face To Face", though flawed it's certainly his best spag.


Since you caught the obvious misses in the fist fight you may not had a problem catching the part where Nero kills three guys with one bullet ;D.

I have FTF on video for some years now and I did like that one.

And, yes, I did spot the 3 with 1 bullet trick - great fun.


Ah, what would we ever have done without SW's? They most certainly are unique. And to think they took so much stick from the (snobby) critics when they were originally released.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on May 25, 2007, 05:01:03 AM
Leone Admirer's review from his SW Virgins Guide:-

The Grand Duel

Now this is more like it! I very much enjoyed this western. Lee Van Cleef was excellent in it, the story was captavating (even if I admit to guessing the ending about halfway through the film), the score was brilliant and the direction was fantastic. This has everything I want in a Lee Van Cleef spaghetti western.
  The film begins with a bunch of strangers arriving at a town which is under siege. Bounty hunters want to collect the bounty on Philipp Wermeer (Peter O'Brien) who is wanted for murder. One man walks off the stage coach, Sheriff Clayton (Lee Van Cleef) and gets Phil. Phil escapes but is continually found and protected by Sheriff Clayton. It seems Phil is wanted by the powerful family the Saxons for the murder of their father, but Clayton seems convinced on Phil's innocence and will fight to prove it.
   The explosive and darkly comic opening is an excellent introduction to the film. It seems to be screaming LEE VAN CLEEF IS BACK! His trademarks such as his pipe smoking all make come backs here and we are all the glad for it. The film is full of great camera set ups, action scenes and dialogue and there is an excellent use of the flashback. The film certainly owes a few debts to Leone but it makes the all the better for it. The opening of the film, and the mixture of people inside a stagecoach traveling between watering hole and waterhole to get to their destination, and being distracted by the pickup of a wanted desperado is a referance to the excellent John Ford western Stagecoach. I thought that this idea translated well into the spaghetti domain and made the film all the more enjoyable.
     The acting is of a high standard wit Lee Van Cleef playing the role he has played many times in spaghetti's, the violent badass who is just on the right side of good. The thing that I do find most impressive with nearly all of Cleef's appearance is his ability to add at least some kind of human dimension to what could have been, strictly cardboard cut out roles. For instance his personal anguish here is played very well by Cleef and really shows its head in the later parts of the movie. Peter O'Briens Phil is different on the other hand. Phil is not the most likable of men who is on his own vendetta and O'Brien plays this remarkably well. His seemingly uncairing nature masking a person who has been deeply hurt by the killing of someone very close to him.
   The Saxon all tend to be played well but the stand out performance is by Klaus Grünberg who plays the psychotic, slightly disfigured and campy Adam Saxon. The scene where he kills an old man is actually quite horrific and really sets up the character well for his fate at the end of the movie.
     The film is certainly well shot , again imitating the Leone style quite a bit with tight close ups during showdowns, but the best bits for me was the moody tiniting and lighting of the flashbacks. The direction by Giancarlo Santi has to be commended and he keeps the pace flying along (but not too fast) in the films relatively short run time. The music score by Sergio Bardotti is fantastic and has been reknewed by its inclusion in Quentin Tarantino's Kill Bill Vol 1.
     Wild East have presented this film in a double set with Beyond The Law on a single 'flipper' disc.           
     The Grand Duel is presented in its original 2.:35.1 aspect ratio in an anamorphic print taken from the Italian version (which has a rather distracting title card during the opening sequence) and in English mono. The print has certainlu seen better days. We had lots of damage, splices and debris all over the print but certainly not enough to ruin the enjoyment of the film. The English mono does come across but is marred by hiss and limitations, again it doesn't detract from the enjoyment of the film. Included on the disc as extras is a scored photo gallery and a trailer.
    I really enjoyed every minute of this film. I thought this was a superb, enjoyable western with great performances by Lee Van Cleef and all together a very well made western. I would recomend this highly to those familiar with the spaghetti genre and newcomers.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on May 26, 2007, 06:32:23 AM
Silenzio's  review:-

The Grand Duel

This had potential to be downright one of the best spaghettis ever, with its great plot, haunting main theme, superb action, great build up, good direction and Lee Van Cleef in an awesome role! Basically, it's about Philip Vermeer, who is being chased by bounty hunters because he was framed for a certain murder. Lee Van Cleef is Sheriff Clayton who knows that Philip is innocent. We're kind of thrown into the middle of things and there are many plot twists along the way, so i deliberately didn't give much away here. The opening was extremely promising.  Basically, we're thrown into this situation where Vermeer is being staked out by a large group of bounty killers but doesn't know it, so Lee goes around and reveals to Philip that the people are hiding there in various cool manners, which then leads to one of the coolest, most exhilarating, and over-the-top action sequences you will EVER see in a western. Unfortunately, there are too many bad scenes that slow this one down,  and the music is inconsistent as well.  The music ranges from an amazing main theme song to a really really awful banjo-pickin' fiddle song that has absolutely no place in a spaghetti western. What's worse, it plays during a comically bad chase scene (actually, i don't think it would be so comically awful if there was different music). There are some things you come to expect from an SW and some from an AW.  If that song was in an old AW, i wouldn't care so much, but i really disliked the fact that it was in an SW. Also, **SPOILERS** in the end when Lee Van Cleef gets shot i was expecting, "Sweet, Van Cleef is gonna die. How spaghetti." But instead all I got was "Gee, phil, there's a girl that'll keep you out of trouble." and the bad fiddle song came over the speakers again. There wasn't even any ambiguity of "Did he die?" a la Shane. **SPOILERS END** We'll see how repeat viewings treat this one.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Banjo on May 26, 2007, 12:54:29 PM
Arizona Colts review:-

GRAND DUEL, THE 1972-Fine LVC western shot when comedies were the order of the day. A similar story to DAY OF ANGER but with more exploitable elements. Some extravagant action scenes enliven the film to take your mind from the fact that you’ve seen it all before. Neolithic actor Salvatore Baccaro has a role as an assassin. The Bacalov score is quite infectious. Giancarlo Santi, who directed Leone’s action scenes in DUCK, YOU SUCKER!, handles the directorial reigns just fine on his own aping Leone’s style during the standoffs. Reportedly, Leone was not a very good action director when it didn’t involve several guys standing around for 10 minutes preparing to shoot each other. Not a classic but well worth a look.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: uncknown on February 20, 2016, 10:21:26 PM
FYI
it's available on ALL CHANNELL
FILMS part of the Hulu lineup

bruce marshall


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Moorman on February 21, 2017, 12:06:23 PM
What a mess..lmao   THIS was all over the place.  Look, i know the reputation of Spaghetti Westerns.  What makes me upset with them is they have the foundation for excellent westerns, but for some reason,  the directors wanna jump into the silliness and don't always wanna play it straight.

The Good:

Lee Van Cleef.  One of my favorite western actors, if not my favorite.  Why, Why didn't they give this guy material to work with in Hollywood?  Barquero was fantastic. He needed more of that because in Italy, well...I'll leave it at that.

The flashback scenes of the Patriach's confrontation were very good.

The Musical Score.  Whoever wrote the main theme ( Sergio Bardotti or Luis Enrique) wrote a masterpiece that rivals anything that Ennio Morricone ever did.

The Bad:

The script and acting.  Everything felt RUSHED. You have seen it all before.  Its like the director didn't have any feelings about the movie. Didn't like the guy who played Phillips. Didn't like the jumping around and pole vaulting of Phillips character ( one of the main things i hated about Sabata). A lot more i didn't like, but whats the point?

The Ugly:

Please, somebody tell me that Van Cleef's character didn't catch a bullet with his teeth for real?  lmao  I almost turned it off right at that point.

The Musical Score.  Whoever had the idea to back up the main theme with that banjo music should've been banned from movies, period.  It was horrible...

Overall.  Again, good foundation, but the house falls apart. Is it worth purchasing the DVD or a Blu Ray? I don't think so. Worth having around on Youtube or television.  Maybe?  I saw this on Youtube. Took a chance...

5 out of 10...


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: stanton on February 21, 2017, 12:55:34 PM
What a mess..lmao   THIS was all over the place.  Look, i know the reputation of Spaghetti Westerns.

An undeserved reputation, there are enough good and original Spags, but, yes, this one isn't one of them. It is ok for a watch with a few good scenes. 5/10 is my take too.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Moorman on February 21, 2017, 01:16:27 PM
An undeserved reputation, there are enough good and original Spags, but, yes, this one isn't one of them. It is ok for a watch with a few good scenes. 5/10 is my take too.

I know there are some good Spaghetti Westerns. I've seen some EXCELLENT sphagetti westerns. 


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: cigar joe on February 21, 2017, 03:57:49 PM
I couldn't agree more it's a 5-6/10 at best. The big question has always been for me is why Lee Van Cleef never got a bounce like Eastwood from the Dollars Films, hell even on the strength of For A Few Dollars More alone.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Moorman on February 21, 2017, 05:07:37 PM
I couldn't agree more it's a 5-6/10 at best. The big question has always been for me is why Lee Van Cleef never got a bounce like Eastwood from the Dollars Films, hell even on the strength of For A Few Dollars More alone.

Me too.  Imagine if he and Clint made a few American Westerns together.  He has a screen presence that i think rivals Clint, and in a way, MIGHT be even better. I like Death Rides a Horse and Sabata. I have yet to see the Big Gundown, Day of Anger, etc.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: cigar joe on February 21, 2017, 07:08:40 PM
Me too.  Imagine if he and Clint made a few American Westerns together.  He has a screen presence that i think rivals Clint, and in a way, MIGHT be even better. I like Death Rides a Horse and Sabata. I have yet to see the Big Gundown, Day of Anger, etc.

You have some of the better ones ahead of you. O0


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Novecento on February 21, 2017, 07:16:04 PM
The Musical Score.  Whoever wrote the main theme ( Sergio Bardotti or Luis Enrique) wrote a masterpiece that rivals anything that Ennio Morricone ever did.

I had always thought it was Bacalov's work. Was it possibly not him?

The big question has always been for me is why Lee Van Cleef never got a bounce like Eastwood from the Dollars Films, hell even on the strength of For A Few Dollars More alone.

LVC's best SW outside of FAFDM and GBU was certainly The Big Gundown which turned into more of a vehicle for launching Tomas Milian's career than LVC's
 


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Moorman on February 21, 2017, 08:47:24 PM
I had always thought it was Bacalov's work. Was it possibly not him?

LVC's best SW outside of FAFDM and GBU was certainly The Big Gundown which turned into more of a vehicle for launching Tomas Milian's career than LVC's
 

Luis Enriquez Bacalov...  Its the SAME man. He is just called Luis Enriquez in some credits.  Yes, he wrote that music.  Apparently its also been spelled Enrique.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: stanton on February 22, 2017, 02:10:03 AM
LvC was for some years very popular in Italy, but he also was a drunk and he aged quickly after GBU. His Spags made after GBU were all quite successful in Italy, but in the 70s after the Sabata films his career went also quickly down the river because he starred only in weak films.

I don't think that he was an actor to become a really big star like Eastwood. His career in Hollywood never was one and before Leone reshaped him even this career was at a low point. He was in the Spags always paired with a younger actor at his side, somehow never the real hero, even when he got the leading credit.

Main problem was of course that his films and his directors after GBU were mostly less good than the previous ones. So maybe he just chose only the wrong films. Somehow indeed a loss as I know a lot of good Spags which could have benefited from him. Like Run Man Run (Sollima) or The Bounty Killer (Eugenio Martin) or Indio Black (Parolini).


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Moorman on February 22, 2017, 05:41:16 AM
Lee Van Cleef clearly was the leading actor in the spaghetti movies i've seen him in. One of the main problems of The Grand Duel is the guy they have opposite him playing Phillips.  Almost the same can be said for Death Rides a Horse.  Van Cleef's problems weren't on screen, it was the material always given him.  

Outside of Clint and the Duke, i can think of no other actor that has the PRESENCE that Van Cleef has in Westerns.  His was a wasted talent...  If he was too old, it was because he didn't get the same opportunity that a younger Clint and John Wayne got...


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: stanton on February 22, 2017, 03:13:58 PM
Lee Van Cleef clearly was the leading actor in the spaghetti movies i've seen him in. One of the main problems of The Grand Duel is the guy they have opposite him playing Phillips.  Almost the same can be said for Death Rides a Horse.  Van Cleef's problems weren't on screen, it was the material always given him.  

Outside of Clint and the Duke, i can think of no other actor that has the PRESENCE that Van Cleef has in Westerns.  His was a wasted talent...  If he was too old, it was because he didn't get the same opportunity that a younger Clint and John Wayne got...

He was the leading actor in most, but still was mostly partnered with a younger actor.

But there are many, many, many actors which have a great western charisma, and many of them were better actors than LvC or Wayne or Eastwood. Too much to name here.


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: Novecento on February 22, 2017, 07:23:23 PM
Luis Enriquez Bacalov...  Its the SAME man. He is just called Luis Enriquez in some credits.  Yes, he wrote that music.  Apparently its also been spelled Enrique.

I thought you were suggesting that Luis Enrique Bacalov didn't compose it and that Sergio Bardotti did instead?


Title: Re: Il grande duello aka Grand Duel (1972)
Post by: titoli on February 22, 2017, 09:55:16 PM
I thought you were suggesting that Luis Enrique Bacalov didn't compose it and that Sergio Bardotti did instead?

Sergio Bardotti was a most eminent lyricist (BTW, he wrote the lyrics for the football team I root for). Never wrote music, as far as I know. And anyway couldn't write anything like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQB2VJYIrbE