Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => Once Upon A Time In The West => Topic started by: MatViola on April 22, 2010, 04:33:12 PM



Title: Painterly compositions
Post by: MatViola on April 22, 2010, 04:33:12 PM
I just read the following quote from Frayling in an interview posted on this site: "Leone showed Tonino Delli Colli the paintings and engravings of Rembrandt before shooting 'Once Upon A Time in The West'. The monocohrome darkness and portraits of faces. Not portraits of aristocrats but ordinary people like his (Rembrandt's) mother, his friends, someone he met in the street. Rembrandt invented the physiological portrait. In that film you can read the person's history on his face".

Does anyone know of any specific paintings, by Rembrandt or anyone else, that inspired the look of OUATITW. I swear I saw something on this site once that compared shots from Leone films to specific paintings. Does anyone remember where that might be?

Thanks,

Mat


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: cigar joe on April 22, 2010, 06:15:54 PM
Well I think it was Giorgio de Chirico surrealist paintings that inspired the camera angles and compositions of the larger shots i.e. the landscapes the town shots etc., while as you say Rembrandt for the closeups.

Here are some of de Chirico's paintings:

(http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/cigarjoe/Giorgio%20de%20Chirico/Chirico_pr_02.jpg)

(http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/cigarjoe/Giorgio%20de%20Chirico/giorgio_de_chirico_gallery_7.jpg)

(http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/cigarjoe/Giorgio%20de%20Chirico/Melanconia.jpg)

(http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/cigarjoe/Giorgio%20de%20Chirico/PiazzadItalia.jpg)

(http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/cigarjoe/Giorgio%20de%20Chirico/TheSoothsayersRecompense.jpg)

I also remember a discussion of Leone's influence on Kubric's "Barry Lyndon" and his (Kubric's) reference of the paintings of Canaletto.


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: MatViola on April 22, 2010, 07:29:57 PM
Yeah, I was just reading Frayling's discussion of Leone's favorite painters. He cites the following:

Edgar Vegas
Max Ernst
Magritte
Giorgio De Chirico
Miro
Velasquez
Vermeer
Goya
Rembrandt
George Grodz
Otto Dix

So, I quickly Googled these painters and took a look at some of their work. I have to say I didn't find a single painting that struck me as having an obvious resemblance to anything in Leone's films. Maybe the influences are too subtle for this untrained eye to detect, I don't know.


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: moviesceleton on April 23, 2010, 02:17:49 AM
I know practically nothing about paintings but here are some notions I made while googling those painters mentioned ^

I can't see Vegas in Leone's work, either. There's something in the way Ernst uses light that resembles Leone's films. Evidently Leone was a big fan of surrealists, like Ernst, Magritte, de Chirico and Miro, which shows in many individual scenes like Tuco and Blondie's journey through the desert, the three way duel, the ridiculously big stagecoach in DYS etc. plus the whole way of cinematic thinking: Leone didn't let logic restrict his work.

Was this the painting that inspired the execution scene in DYS?
(http://www.goyatobeijing.org/gallery/images/goya.jpg)

Girgio de Chirico's influence on Leone's westerns is impossible to deny; just see some of his paintings. The long shadows and especially the Mediterranean style arches seem very familiar to anyone who's seen AFoD. Margitte's blue skies with pure white clouds appear in Leone's films, too.

Vermeer I just can't see in Leone's films, not in any obvious way. His light is always pure white or bluish, coming through a window; not very leonesque, IMO. But I think it's safe to say that Vermeer has had some kind of effect on everyone working with visual media.

Rembrandt is more present in OUATIA than in Leone's westerns, but there are a couple of scenes in them, too, where I see Rembrandt: most notably the bar scene in OUATITW.

One thing yet: Frayling, or somebody else on the OUATITW commentary (I can't remember who), talked about High Noon during the scene where Frank's own men try to shoot him in the town, saying that the empty clock face was an homage to that movie. I haven't seen High Noon but that scene reminds me somehow of the Dali painting with the melting clocks. :D


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: dave jenkins on April 23, 2010, 02:29:16 AM

One thing yet: Frayling, or somebody else on the OUATITW commentary (I can't remember who), talked about High Noon during the scene where Frank's own men try to shoot him in the town, saying that the empty clock face was an homage to that movie. I haven't seen High Noon but that scene reminds me somehow of the Dali painting with the melting clocks. :D
Or the dream sequence (no doubt itself inspired by Dali) that opens Wild Strawberries ? :)


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: moviesceleton on April 23, 2010, 02:57:30 AM
Or the dream sequence (no doubt itself inspired by Dali) that opens Wild Strawberries ? :)
I haven't seen Wild Strawberries either but I guess this is the scene you're talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgtTBAQjK3w&feature=related It really has a strong resemblance. Only if we knew whether Leone ever saw the movie or not... It's somehow hard for me to imagine that he would have been a huge Bergman fan.  :D


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: MatViola on April 23, 2010, 06:18:26 AM
Thanks for the comments, moviesceleton. I agree with you about the arches in de Chirico's paintings, however, that seems to have inspired Simi's art/set direction more than Delli Colli's cinematography/lighting. Frayling says that Leone and Delli Colli discussed certain paintings/painters before shooting OUATITW, but although the lighting is very "painterly" I haven't yet seen any single painting that jumps out at me as obviously having an influence.

You mention the bar scene in OUATITW: I assume you're talking about the Monument Valley rest stop scene (and not the scene towards the end at the Flagstone saloon). Is there a particular painting you had in mind?


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: moviesceleton on April 23, 2010, 07:59:13 AM
Thanks for the comments, moviesceleton. I agree with you about the arches in de Chirico's paintings, however, that seems to have inspired Simi's art/set direction more than Delli Colli's cinematography/lighting. Frayling says that Leone and Delli Colli discussed certain paintings/painters before shooting OUATITW, but although the lighting is very "painterly" I haven't yet seen any single painting that jumps out at me as obviously having an influence.

You mention the bar scene in OUATITW: I assume you're talking about the Monument Valley rest stop scene (and not the scene towards the end at the Flagstone saloon). Is there a particular painting you had in mind?
Yea, I meant the Monument Valley scene. Not any particular painting, just the way Rembrandt often uses dark environments with a kind of a spotlight highlighting certain elements, most often human faces. I think that scene has a similar thing going.

I highly doubt that Leone would have copied any paintings directly into his movies, except for one that Frayling mentions on the DYS commentary. I can't remember which painting it was or even who was the artist, but I have a feeling it was the one I posted in my first post.

My guess is that paintings were just inspiration for Leone, not a source of ready compositions and pictures to choose from for takes in films. And probably a handy tool for telling what he wanted. People who collaborate a lot with each other often develop a language of their own; I imagine that Leone could just mention some painting or artist to Delli Colli and he'd know what Leone was aiming at. But that's all just speculation, of course.


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: MatViola on April 23, 2010, 08:32:54 AM
I'm not suggesting that Leone would outright copy a painting, of course. I'm simply looking for a specific painting bearing a similarity to the lighting used in OUATITW. So far, I really haven't seen much that bears more than a marginal resemblance. Certainly those de Chirico paintings Cigar Joe posted do not.  They don't remind me of the lighting in OUATITW at all.

In Frayling's Once Upon a Time in Italy, Fralyling asks Delli Colli point blank: "But didn't SL use paintings as reference points for the visuals? Giorgio De Chirico, for example?"

Delli Colli's reply: "While we were actually working, we didn't refer to paintings. Sometimes we referred to them during the preparation stage as a kind of shorthand for costumes and sets., but that's about it. For documentation rather than composition. Maybe for lighting, sometimes...I don't remember De Chirico. The resemblance could be by accident."

The part that interests me the most is when he says "maybe the lighting, sometimes." I guess what I'm really looking for is a painting that I could put up against a frame from the film and see a definite similarity.

 


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: noodles_leone on April 25, 2010, 03:25:19 PM
In OUATIA, the easiest to spot, to me, is Degas (although I have to admit every time you see a girle dancing you can think about Degas):

(http://www1.alliancefr.com/bqimages/Degas.etoile.jpg)(http://media.themalaysianinsider.com/images/stories/2009dec9/0101degas.jpg)
(http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/7599/ouatiagirl.jpg)

More that the common subject of the pictures, we find in these images the same use of sepia: low contrast, and "burnt" white to underline where the viewer's eye is supposed to focus.



In CJ's post, the use of lighting is quite stricking: in GBU and OUATITW wide shots, you always have these very low sun projecting all the shadows almost directly toward the camera. Never a real back light, but always close.
The composition is also quite familiar with some OUATITW compositions. For instance, the use of a vertical line right in the middle of the picture (which is against all the "rules" of composition, hence it gives always an akward feeling to the pictures where it is used): one of the first shots of Elam, for example.



Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: Novecento on April 26, 2010, 02:44:12 PM
Nice little quote from here from an article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2000/feb/19/1) in a UK newspaper:

"Frayling believes Leone's visceral grasp of imagery, the way he put together Ennio Morricone's music, sun and shadow, made him an artist of collages - the preferred surrealist technique. (He once saw a surrealist painting by De Chirico that Leone bought the year he made The Good, the Bad and the Ugly: high-contrast light on a colonnade and on a cow-catchered western locomotive - the whole movie on a small canvas.) That made Leone, in Baudrillard's description, the first postmodernist director, "the first to understand the hall of mirrors within the contemporary culture of quotations"."


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 17, 2012, 06:54:20 AM
RE: OUATIA: Yeah Degas made many paintings with girls dancing, that influenced the scene of Young Deborah dancing, according to Frayling. Here is Degas's gallery on Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degas#Gallery

but IMO this one may have influenced that scene very much http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Edgar_Degas_-_Dance_Class.jpg (note the mirror in back)

 although the lighting may seem a bit closer to this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Edgar_Germain_Hilaire_Degas_004.jpg

Frayling also mentioned Edward Hopper as being an influence on OUATIA; his wikipedia gallery here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Hopper -- does anyone see any influences on composition and/or lighting to OUATIA?


And Leone said that the design of Peggy's brothel is based on Gustav Klimt; his wikipedia gallery here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Klimt#Gallery (I can't figure out where that came from... I presume Leone was referring to the physical design of the building and not all the naked chicks  ;D)


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 17, 2012, 06:58:55 AM



as for the 3rd of May 1808 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:El_Tres_de_Mayo,_by_Francisco_de_Goya,_from_Prado_thin_black_margin.jpg

According to Frayling:


 it was one of Leone's favorite paintings, and as mentioned above by moviesceleton, influenced the firing squad scene in DYS. When Tonino Delli Colli first saw it, he exclaimed, "Oh My God! Goya invented backlighting!"


The way the desert sequences of GBU were shot, was very influenced by surrealist painters.


This is very far-fetched, but what about this Monet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Claude_Monet_011.jpg as an influence on Tuco with the parasol riding the horse as Blondie down on the ground stumbles along (I know Money was Impressionist, but wtf, I just couldn't resist the idea of the big figure of Tuco on the horse with the parasol towering over Blondie walking (and then crawling) ahead




Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: noodles_leone on July 17, 2012, 09:05:19 AM
Frayling also mentioned Edward Hopper as being an influence on OUATIA; his wikipedia gallery here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Hopper -- does anyone see any influences on composition and/or lighting to OUATIA?

Well the only visible influence, to me, is Hopper's most famous work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nighthawks
Of course, the extended shot from outside Fat Moe's (when the old Noodles calls him from the phone boot) uses a similar idea, but it's not a very original idea. It may be more about the meaning. That painting is very often shown in exhibitions about America. It really captures something about America. Anyone, seeing this picture, knows it's in America and not anywhere else, although there is no evidence of that.
So may be it's just about the feeling/meaning rather than real composition/colors.


And Leone said that the design of Peggy's brothel is based on Gustav Klimt; his wikipedia gallery here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Klimt#Gallery (I can't figure out where that came from... I presume Leone was referring to the physical design of the building and not all the naked chicks  ;D)

Again, I think it's more about an atmosphere than anything else. i'm not even sure Klimt ever painted a room. He was far more into portraits.


OFF TOPIC: when I search for "ouatia fat moe's" on Google Image, I get pictures of CJ and DJ! https://www.google.fr/search?sugexp=chrome,mod%3D15&q=ouatia+extended+shot&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=fr&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=NnwFUKHoJKic0QWW8NTVBw&biw=1440&bih=785&sei=OHwFUK70Mcqi0QWjgeHdBw#um=1&hl=fr&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=ZHwFUO1f547QBbvkxMAH&ved=0CEEQBSgA&q=ouatia+fat+moe%27s&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=5415c953d8c07667&biw=1440&bih=785


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 17, 2012, 08:22:33 PM
Well the only visible influence, to me, is Hopper's most famous work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nighthawks
Of course, the extended shot from outside Fat Moe's (when the old Noodles calls him from the phone boot) uses a similar idea, but it's not a very original idea. It may be more about the meaning. That painting is very often shown in exhibitions about America. It really captures something about America. Anyone, seeing this picture, knows it's in America and not anywhere else, although there is no evidence of that.
So may be it's just about the feeling/meaning rather than real composition/colors.

....

OFF TOPIC: when I search for "ouatia fat moe's" on Google Image, I get pictures of CJ and DJ! https://www.google.fr/search?sugexp=chrome,mod%3D15&q=ouatia+extended+shot&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=fr&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=NnwFUKHoJKic0QWW8NTVBw&biw=1440&bih=785&sei=OHwFUK70Mcqi0QWjgeHdBw#um=1&hl=fr&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=ZHwFUO1f547QBbvkxMAH&ved=0CEEQBSgA&q=ouatia+fat+moe%27s&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=5415c953d8c07667&biw=1440&bih=785

haha nice! you even see Groggy's signature in there!

btw, Fat Moe's was not a real bar; it was a set, shot in Rome. The exteriors of the street outside Fat Moe's was a street in Williambsurgh, Brooklyn. They rebuilt part of the street, detail by detail, in Rome, so that when they filmed the interiors, the street outside the restaurant would look the same as it does for the big exterior scenes shot in Williamsburgh. Also, the wide alley on the side of Fat Moe's was in Rome, cuz there was no space for such a alley in Williamsburgh. So for those scenes on that street near Fat Moe's: for the interiors of the restaurant (and the speakeasy and back room/office, that was all in Rome. The scenes in the alley (eg. the boys being beaten up, Young Noodles sneaking into the restaurant after Deborah) were in Rome. But for the big exterior scenes on that street, that was done in Williamsburg. Unfortunately, the street today doesn't look anything like it was in the movie. Apparently, there was an empty lot on which they built only the exterior of Fat Moe's; when cj, dj, and I visited that street, it looked completely different: a building had been built in what was then the lot that Far Moe's was built on. And all the buildings in the movie had been re-dressed with period exteriors, and signs to make it seem like Jewish shops of the Lower East Side. So it's completely different; if you walk down that street today, you wouldn't recognize it. I couldn't even believe that the street I was standing on was the same on. Ditto for the street where Noodles drives down, near the river, upon his return in 1968: now, they have built a huge kosher catering hall right near the water, so it looks completely different than it was then.


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 17, 2012, 08:38:55 PM
(NOTE: at each link, you can click on the image to enlarge it)

Frayling discusses the visual references in OUATIA extensively on pp. 428-431 of STDWD. Below are just a few selections from Frayling's discussion:

-- top of p. 431: "... the over-the-top interior of Peggy's brothel was based on the opulent 'gold style' paintings of Austrian artist Gustav Klimt. Its turn-of-the-century art nouveau decorations -- all gilt and glitter and writhing patterns -- were a world away from Reginald Marsh's sordid streets, where the employees presumably originated."

-- bottom of p. 429: the visual inspiration for Fat Moe's was Hopper's "Drug Store"  
http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/hopper/street/hopper.drug-store.jpg


as well as his most famous work "Nighthawks,"  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nighthawks
(Noodles Leone mentioned Nighthawks previously).


-- Hoppers' "New York Movie" http://www.moma.org/collection/object.php?object_id=79616   inspired elderly Carol's meeting with Noodles;

-- the set dressings of the Lower East Side were inspired by two other Hoppers: "Manhattan Bridge Loop" http://0.tqn.com/d/arthistory/1/0/b/f/coaa_14.jpg

and  "From Williamsburg Bridge"   http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/37.44
-------------------

A couple of possibilities I am wondering about, which were not mentioned by Frayling:

A) Perhaps Hopper's "New York Movie" also provided inspiration for the theater next to the opium den.

B) Maybe the Lower East Side set dressing was also inspired by Hopper's "Early Sunday Morning"
http://whitney.org/Collection/EdwardHopper/31426 (there also happens to be a barber shop vector outside one of the shops across the street from Fat Moe's)


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 24, 2012, 09:27:03 PM
Found some more interesting ones by Hopper:

"Rooftops" http://www.canvasreplicas.com/Hopper207.htm may have influenced the rooftop scene in OUATIA where the boys catch Fartface banging Peggy

And how about this gem called "Adobe Houses" http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/edward-hopper/adobe-houses remind anyone of The opening scenes of FOD?




Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: Groggy on July 25, 2012, 08:50:13 AM
Quote
Rooftops http://www.canvasreplicas.com/Hopper207.htm may have influenced the rooftop scene in OUATIA where the boys catch Fartface banging Peggy

And how about this gem called "Adobe Houses" http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/edward-hopper/adobe-houses remind anyone of The opening scenes of FOD?

Nice finds. O0


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 25, 2012, 10:13:58 PM
A) I found two more Hopper paintings of apartment building rooftops: "City Roofs"   http://www.canvasreplicas.com/Hopper252.htm

and "Roofs, Washington Square" http://www.cmoa.org/searchcollections/details.aspx?item=1033320 (click on the image to enlarge it).
 


B) I previously cited Frayling as saying that one of the inspirations for the exterior of Fat Moe's was Hopper's "Drug Store" http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/hopper/street/hopper.drug-store.jpg

Well I just looked at that painting again, and I noticed that there is one specific medicine that is advertised in the front window:  "That record is just like Ex-Lax; every time I turn it on, you have to go to the bathroom."  :)






Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: cigar joe on July 26, 2012, 02:03:21 AM
nice O0


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 26, 2012, 02:39:21 AM
nice O0

Thanks,

doesn't that"ADOBE HOUSES"one look just like Los Albericoques? And here is another one with adobe homes called ADOBES AND SHED, NEW MEXICO http://www.canvasreplicas.com/Hopper233.htm

--------




--- CJ: This one's for you  ;): THE EL STATION http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/edward-hopper/the-el-station

And Approaching the City http://www.canvasreplicas.com/Hopper145.htm

------

--- HOUSE BY THE RAILROAD inspired the Bates house in Psycho  http://www.moma.org/collection/object.php?object_id=78330


There are so many others. Apparently, the Whitney Museum has a lot of Hopper's paintings; perhaps we should include that on our next NYC Locations Tour  :)




Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 26, 2012, 02:59:08 AM
cj, do you have any idea which street THE CIRCLE THEATRE http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/edward-hopper/the-circle-theatre was based on? I have a feeling it's the intersection of 72nd and Broadway; though I can't be sure. Of course it's changed a lot since the painting was made in 1936; I Googled The Circle Theatre in New York, there is one on Broadway in the 50's now. It may well be that I am distracted by the covered subway station -- while the one at 72nd is one of the only few remaining, back in '36 there were many like that. So I could certainly be wrong. But I'd love to know whether that painting is indeed depicting a particular intersection  :)


And what a beauty is GAS http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/edward-hopper/gas#supersized-artistPaintings-235562 (film noir, anyone?)

Western town inspiration? EL PALACIO http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/edward-hopper/el-palacio#supersized-artistPaintings-235553

SUMMERTIME http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/edward-hopper/summertime (Beautiful work; remind you of Sylvia Sidney in Street Scene? the movie was released years before this painting was completed)



But I digress.......  ;)


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: cigar joe on July 26, 2012, 03:34:46 AM
cj, do you have any idea which street THE CIRCLE THEATRE http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/edward-hopper/the-circle-theatre was based on? I have a feeling it's the intersection of 72nd and Broadway; though I can't be sure. Of course it's changed a lot since the painting was made in 1936; I Googled The Circle Theatre in New York, there is one on Broadway in the 50's now. It may well be that I am distracted by the covered subway station -- while the one at 72nd is one of the only few remaining, back in '36 there were many like that. So I could certainly be wrong. But I'd love to know whether that painting is indeed depicting a particular intersection  :)


And what a beauty is GAS http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/edward-hopper/gas#supersized-artistPaintings-235562 (film noir, anyone?)

Western town inspiration? EL PALACIO http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/edward-hopper/el-palacio#supersized-artistPaintings-235553

SUMMERTIME http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/edward-hopper/summertime (Beautiful work; remind you of Sylvia Sidney in Street Scene? the movie was released years before this painting was completed)



But I digress.......  ;)

Columbus Circle http://cinematreasures.org/theaters/2935 (http://cinematreasures.org/theaters/2935)


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: cigar joe on July 26, 2012, 03:37:20 AM
Hopper has been a long time favorite of mine, you should check out some creative stuff making use of and using Hopper paintings on Youtube


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 26, 2012, 03:55:04 AM
Columbus Circle http://cinematreasures.org/theaters/2935 (http://cinematreasures.org/theaters/2935)

yeah, that's where that theater is now. But do you know whether that's the actual location that inspired Hopper's 1936 painting "The Circle Theatre"?


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: cigar joe on July 26, 2012, 08:27:03 AM
I think that is why it was called the Circle theater because it was on Columbus Circle, but I could be wrong.


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 26, 2012, 11:15:01 PM
Hopper has been a long time favorite of mine, you should check out some creative stuff making use of and using Hopper paintings on Youtube

is this the old TCM promo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz1Z1RohhdM ? (I didn't discover TCM until 2010). This definitely looks like it's pieced together from Hopper paintings.


Also, here is TCM's current intro; the final image is Nighhawks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVttlzU2y9E&feature=related

btw, can you identify which movie these scenes are from? I noticed several from Killer's Kiss: the dancing scene at 0:08, and the girl taking her shirt off at 0:18 (and I believe the guy selling tickets at 0:06 is also from Killer's Kiss?)

The shot of the bridge at 0:20, is  from The Wrong Man? (I know that cuz you posted this screen grab http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=11239.msg155824#msg155824  ;) ) I was recently at an engagement party on the Lower East Side, and I think I was on the street where that shot was taken. Delancey Street leads straight on to the Williamsburg Bridge -- is that where this shot was taken?

The guy getting on the bus at 0:14 is from Strangers on a Train.


Can you identify the others?


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: cigar joe on July 29, 2012, 06:51:05 PM
is this the old TCM promo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz1Z1RohhdM ? (I didn't discover TCM until 2010). This definitely looks like it's pieced together from Hopper paintings.


Also, here is TCM's current intro; the final image is Nighhawks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVttlzU2y9E&feature=related

btw, can you identify which movie these scenes are from? I noticed several from Killer's Kiss: the dancing scene at 0:08, and the girl taking her shirt off at 0:18 (and I believe the guy selling tickets at 0:06 is also from Killer's Kiss?)

The shot of the bridge at 0:20, is  from The Wrong Man? (I know that cuz you posted this screen grab http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=11239.msg155824#msg155824  ;) ) I was recently at an engagement party on the Lower East Side, and I think I was on the street where that shot was taken. Delancey Street leads straight on to the Williamsburg Bridge -- is that where this shot was taken?

The guy getting on the bus at 0:14 is from Strangers on a Train.


Can you identify the others?

I'd have to look at it again


I'd have to look at it again


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on August 06, 2012, 09:41:32 PM
I'd have to look at it again

in the time it took you to type that message, you could have viewed the entire thing. It's 31 seconds long  ;)


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: cigar joe on August 07, 2012, 04:08:41 PM
I'd have to look at it again

I looked its definitely Hopperesque, agreed.

All I can identify is The Wrong Man and Killers Kiss, the interior diner scene looks familiar but its too short.


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on September 08, 2012, 11:06:45 PM
Nice little quote from here from an article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2000/feb/19/1) in a UK newspaper:

"Frayling believes Leone's visceral grasp of imagery, the way he put together Ennio Morricone's music, sun and shadow, made him an artist of collages - the preferred surrealist technique. (He once saw a surrealist painting by De Chirico that Leone bought the year he made The Good, the Bad and the Ugly: high-contrast light on a colonnade and on a cow-catchered western locomotive - the whole movie on a small canvas.) That made Leone, in Baudrillard's description, the first postmodernist director, "the first to understand the hall of mirrors within the contemporary culture of quotations"."

p. 232 of STDWD:

About the time of The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly, Leone purchased a small de Chirico canvas: it shows an urban arcade or colonnade in a deserted space, a female figure lying horizontally in the foreground and a 'Western' American locomotive -- with smokestack and cowcatcher -- in the background. The extraordinary use of perspective is there, as is the odd sense of scale: and the painting does look as though the light comes from the sun directly overhead. It could well have been one of the paintings Leone showed Tonino Delli Colli before they started shooting the film. Another De Chirico, showing a piazza with a statue in high-contrast light -- with two arcades, one in the background and one to the side, plus some figures in silhouette -- was purchased later.  


 de Chirico certainly made quite a shitload of paintings during his "metaphysical" period that featured some combination of town squares, high-contrast light, collonades, arcades, locomotives, piazzas, statues, and figures in silhouette. Based on Frayling's above description, does any art lover care to chance a guess on which painting(s) Frayling is referring to?




Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on September 12, 2012, 07:14:33 PM
I just vsited Museum of Modern Art, (my first visit ever to an art museum!). A few Leone-related works that I saw:

Firstly, Edward Hopper's "New York Movie" (1939) , one of my favorite paintings (and the main reason I made this visit!) http://www.moma.org/collection/object.php?object_id=79616 According to Frayling, this painting influenced the scene where Noodles visits the elderly Carol in the rest home


I also saw 3 paintings by Girgio de Chirico.  (Though Frayling didn't mention any of these 3 specifically), as discussed above Leone was very influenced by de Chricio's works.

The 3 I saw were:

Gare Montparnasse (The Melancholy of Departure) (1914) http://www.moma.org/collection/object.php?object_id=80538

The Seer (1914-1915) http://www.moma.org/collection/object.php?object_id=80589


The Serenity of the Scholar (1914) http://www.moma.org/collection/object.php?object_id=79011



Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: cigar joe on September 13, 2012, 03:49:14 AM
check out the Guggenheim it has some Hopper too.  O0

An while your delving into art check out the "Ash Can" school artists. 


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on September 20, 2012, 02:21:38 PM
check out the Guggenheim it has some Hopper too.  O0

An while your delving into art check out the "Ash Can" school artists. 

Thanks, will do.

I recently read this book about Hopper, the Ash Can artists were mentioned. If I recall correctly, they were colleagues of Hopper's, though Hopper himself was not an Ash Canner, right?


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: cigar joe on September 20, 2012, 03:21:34 PM
not originally of the 8 but later he was included 


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on September 20, 2012, 04:18:11 PM
okay, I created a thread for discussing art that's unrelated to Leone http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=11436.msg159579#msg159579


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 12, 2013, 11:34:13 PM
Okay, looks like I've finally found out which de Chrico painting Leone owned: it was Ariadne (1913), currently in the Metrolopolitan Museum of Art in New York http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/1996.403.10

Frayling says so at 25:21 of this vid http://www.watershed.co.uk/dshed/filmic-christopher-frayling-few-guitars-more

Frayling says "Leone referred to GBU as 'de Cjrico rides the range' "   ;D


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: Senza on March 13, 2013, 03:34:19 AM
It would be awesome if Frayling himself organised a documentary where he tours Leone's home.


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: cigar joe on March 13, 2013, 03:36:30 AM
cool


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 13, 2013, 06:16:47 AM
It would be awesome if Frayling himself organised a documentary where he tours Leone's home.

Leone is in Heaven. Only God can tour his home.


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: Senza on March 13, 2013, 06:32:35 AM
No doubt about it, he's probably making SW's and other masterpieces up there  :)


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 15, 2013, 03:27:11 AM
Okay, looks like I've finally found out which de Chrico painting Leone owned: it was Ariadne (1913), currently in the Metrolopolitan Museum of Art in New York http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/1996.403.10

Frayling says so at 25:21 of this vid http://www.watershed.co.uk/dshed/filmic-christopher-frayling-few-guitars-more

Frayling says "Leone referred to GBU as 'de Cjrico rides the range' "   ;D

I'm not sure what's going on; looks like Frayling is wrong about Leone having owned  the de Chirico painting  Ariadne (1913) : If you look on Ariadne's page on the website of the Metropolitan Museum of Art (MMA), which currently owns the painting http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/search-the-collections/210006955 look at the bottom right, click on "Provenance." Leone's name is nowhere to be found; nor does it say "private collection." There are other people listed by name as having owned the painting all the way up to its being bequeathed to MMA in 1995.

So Frayling must be wrong about Leone having owned this painting.


Look again at this video at 25:21 http://www.watershed.co.uk/dshed/filmic-christopher-frayling-few-guitars-more
I am virtually 100% sure that the painting Frayling is showing, which he says Leone owned, is the painting calledAriadne . Frayling never states the name of the painting explicitly; he merely says that the painting features the statue Ariadne (and  de Chirico in fact made many paintings during his Metaphysical period that featured the statue Ariadne). But if you look at the painting Frayling shows on the screen, and then look at the painting called Ariadne (1913) on MMA's website, it is definitely that one.

So, assuming MMA's has the provenance of their painting accurately (and I would surely assume they do), it looks like Frayling is wrong about Leone having owned the painting Ariadne. (Maybe Leone owned a different one of de Chirico's Metaphysical paintings and Frayling confused them; after all, de Chirico made so many similar paintings during that Metaphysical period, featuring some combination of the statue Ariadne, an Italian town square, collonades, arcades, locomotive...)


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: Senza on March 15, 2013, 03:34:21 AM
Frayling can be wrong about certain things, I remember in the GBU commentary where he mentions LVC's finger during the final showdown being something done by the make up artists when in actual fact LVC had an accident where the tip of his right finger was cut off.


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 15, 2013, 03:41:44 AM
Frayling can be wrong about certain things, I remember in the GBU commentary where he mentions LVC's finger during the final showdown being something done by the make up artists when in actual fact LVC had an accident where the tip of his right finger was cut off.

there's no doubt about that; when you're talking about stuff that went on 45 years ago, in many cases involving people who are dead, there are bound to be some mistakes.


But I find it strange that there could be a mistake on something as blatant as ownership of a painting that is worth tens of millions of dollars today. How can there be a mistake about that -- and provenance of fine art is so easy to trace??

Again, the only thing I can think of is that Frayling is confusing this with another of de Chrico's Metaphysical paintings, since so many of them were similarly composed.


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: Senza on March 15, 2013, 03:45:57 AM
I type in chrico's name and "ariadne" and there are quite a few of them.


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 04, 2013, 01:51:08 PM
I type in chrico's name and "ariadne" and there are quite a few of them.

If you search "de chirico" and "ariadne," you will get many hits, because quite a few of de Chirico's paintings featured the statue of the Greek mythological Ariadne.

But it's important not to confuse the statue of Ariadne (a statue which de Chirico painted into quite a few of his Italian Piazza paintings), with the specific de Chirico painting titled "Ariadne" (1913), of which I believe there is only one.

So de Chirico painted many paintings that featured the statue of Ariadne, and each of those paintings has a different title, but (so far as I can tell), only one de Chirico painting has the title "Ariadne" (1913). It is this painting, currently owned by the Met museum http://www.metmuseum.org/collections/search-the-collections/486740

This is the same painting that Frayling shows on the screen during his speech, and which he says was in Leone's collection. But Leone's name is not listed in the provenance of that painting; therefore, I have to believe that Frayling is wrong about Leone having ever owned the painting. Leone may have owned a de Chirico painting that had the statue of Ariadne in it, but it couldn't have been the painting on Frayling's screen.


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: Novecento on October 04, 2013, 06:04:20 PM
I believe there is a whole series. I'm not sure how many, but perhaps Leone owned one of them:

(http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/ma/web-large/DP252864.jpg)

(http://www.monograffi.com/meta/The%20Soothsayer%27s%20Recompense,%201913%201bc.jpg)

(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRznwZf38mH1GIIGEc6Iciu6BC8H9-ayZ0BWS7Nf1XbQ7C2EwgwKA)

(http://www.culture24.org.uk/asset_arena/3/99/34993/v0_master.jpg)

(http://www.christies.com/lotfinderimages/d52583/d5258394l.jpg)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lJQvpAQ4Du8/ULDbLD7dbVI/AAAAAAAAA2E/ZtKEweWEybc/s400/de+chirico+3.jpg)



Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 05, 2013, 06:47:46 PM
I believe there is a whole series. I'm not sure how many, but perhaps Leone owned one of them



Thanks for showing the paintings. And yes, that's exactly what I am saying.

The first painting you show is the one that Frayling shows on his screen at this speech, and (if you believe the Met museum's provenance), Leone never owned that painting.

Theoretically, if I was inclined, I could try to look up the provenance of each of those paintings, to see if Leone's name is on any of them. That would entail searching the website of the museum that has each of those paintings (I assume that by now all or almost all or held by museums, not by private collectors), and hope that the museum lists the provenance of each painting in its collection, as the Met Museum does.

I'm not in the mood of doing that kinda research right now not to mention that some of the paintings are probably held by Europena museums and the websites may not be in English but maybe on day I will. In the meantime, if you wanna take a stab at it, I'm all ears  ;)


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: Novecento on October 05, 2013, 08:50:16 PM
The thing is that the above images all show the locomotive in the background; the top two in particular are very similar. Perhaps he just mistakenly displayed the wrong one?


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 05, 2013, 10:28:01 PM
The thing is that the above images all show the locomotive in the background; the top two in particular are very similar. Perhaps he just mistakenly displayed the wrong one?

that's definitely possible. But the only way to know for sure is to check the provenance of those paintings. And in addition to the paintings you posted, there are even more de Chrico paintings that feature the statue of Ariadne.

Firstly, can you please provide the titles of the six paintings you provided above?
 I know the first one is Ariadne (1913), owned by the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York http://www.metmuseum.org/collections/search-the-collections/486740

And the second one is The Soothsayer's Recompense (1913), owned by the Philadelphia Museum of Art http://www.philamuseum.org/collections/permanent/51288.html
Unfortunately, the Philadelphia Museum doesn't list the provenance of this painting.

(I can't find the others 4 in my books on de Chrico, which leads me to believe that they were not made during de Chirico's early period (roughly 1911-1918 or so). Most of my reading about de Chrico has focused on these early metaphysical years.)


Anyway, if you can please find the titles of the last 4 paintings you posted, I'll try to look up some more early paintings of his that included the statue Ariadne. Grazie  :)

UPDATE: The fifth painting you posted above is called Piazza D'Italia, auctioned by Christie's last year http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/paintings/giorgio-de-chirico-piazza-ditalia-5608658-details.aspx
Christie's says the painting is circa 1956

Wikipaintings shows a de Chrico called Piazza D'Italia that it says is from 1913, and owned by the Art Gallery of Ontario
 http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/giorgio-de-chirico/piazza-d-italia-1913

Although the two paintings are very similar, there are differences; I am pretty sure these are two different works; one may be a copy of another; de Chirico frequently made later copies of his earlier works.  Anyway, the fact that no such work is mentioned in James Thrall Soby's book "Giorgio de Chirico," published in 1955, qhich focuses on de Chirico's early work, would indicate to me that de Chrico never painted such a painting in 1913.
 


Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 05, 2013, 11:20:28 PM
There are at least two more de Chirico paintings in which the statue of Ariadne and a locomotive appear:


The Joys and Enigmas of a Strange Hour (1913)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img854/5484/gp5g.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/i/nqgp5gj)

This painting is in a private collection http://www.artnet.com/magazineus/features/kuspit/kuspit6-16-06-26.asp#




Ariadne's Afternoon (1913)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img534/4918/qvdd.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/i/euqvddj)
This painting is in the Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Moderna, Rome http://www.diomedia.com/public/;jsessionid=5CE5C4516A924A11BF4DACF3D8291088.worker1en/10517735/imageDetails.html



Bottom line is that unless we have some way to check the provenance of each painting, it is impossible to determine which one was owned by Leone. Not every museum lists the provenance of each painting, and the ones that are currently owned by private collectors certainly do not have a website listing the provenance. So it seems to me, this may be a lot of work for nothing.

Perhaps the best thing we can try to do is contact one of the Leone children and ask them. Has anyone here ever tried contacting any of the Leone children for anything and received a response? Or Christopher Frayling?

Andrea Leone has a movie company, Andrea Leone Films http://andrealeonefilms.it/


Francesca Leone, a gifted painter in her own right (who herself was very inspired by de Chirico as is evidenced from this article http://www.i-italy.org/13382/omaggio-de-chirico-artists-inspired-master-surrealism-and-metaphysics )

Her website is http://www.francescaleone.it/?lang=en

Maybe someone (who speaks Italian, preferably?) can contact them and ask them if they can tell you which de Chirico painting their father owned  :)



Title: Re: Painterly compositions
Post by: drinkanddestroy on October 08, 2013, 04:11:05 PM
Two of the Spanish paintings that Leone loved, both are in the Prado:

1) The Third of May 1808, by Francisco Goya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_of_May_1808

This painting influenced the firing squad sequence in DYS. I recall Frayling saying (either on the GBU brd commentary, or the DYS dvd commentary) that Leone took one of his collaborators, (I think it was Tonino Delli Colli?) to see this painting, and the latter exclaimed, GOYA INVENTED BACKLIGHTING!


----------------------------------------------------------


2) Las Meninas, by Diego Velazquez http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Meninas

Frayling discusses Las Meninas, which he says was Leone's favorite painting, at 23:40 of this video http://www.watershed.co.uk/dshed/filmic-christopher-frayling-few-guitars-more