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Films of Sergio Leone => Other Films => Topic started by: DJIMBO on May 08, 2004, 01:00:16 PM



Title: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: DJIMBO on May 08, 2004, 01:00:16 PM
saw this film on channel 5 (uk) today and im very impressed. i thought id seen it b4 but i hadnt.

Great forerunner of leone - the end of the old West (from OUATITW) and Ford actually questions the myth of the Western hero that he helped create. Theres only two Ford films that i like - this and the Searchers - theyre a bit more gritty and less sentimental. i think leone realised that and built on ford's final films - which are, it must be said, much better than his earlier ones like My Darling Clementine (which is just nauseating).

Also interesting 2 see Lee van Cleef as Liberty Valance's henchman Reese and Woody Strode as Doniphon's sidekick Pompey.

"When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."

What a great maxim


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Groggy on May 09, 2004, 05:09:33 AM
  I also remember Strother Martin lurking in there somewhere (wasn't he Vallance's other henchman).  

As I've said, I love this movie a great deal.  Not much more to say.  I like most of Ford's films, but this one's just above the rest.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: DJIMBO on May 10, 2004, 05:40:12 AM
i just love that flashback and when Doniphon tells Stoddard the truth.

And that final poignant line: "Anything for the man who shot liberty valance."

Just look at Jimmy Stewarts face


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Christopher on May 12, 2004, 09:56:17 AM
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance is a great movie. I'd put it just behind The Searchers as Wayne's best.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Beebs on July 09, 2006, 05:20:09 PM
Just bought this movie and finally sat and watched it begining to end. It now stands as one of my favorites. Now I know Groggs will like this because I'm aware it's one of his favorites. What a movie. Emotionally stirring I think is what they call it. The evil of Marvin and his mates, the pity you feel for John Wayne, Jimmy Stewart's flaming sword of truth, and the pretty Vera Miles are all fabulous. Woody Strode has a well loved role as Pompey, and I love Andy Devine's voice. I grew up with him as Friar Tuck's voice in Disney's Robin Hood.

The story is great as well. Hats off to John Ford, who I am admiring more and more.

But one question I raise: John Wayne's character has a sad ending, though I can't see him doing anything to deserve it. He saves Ransom "Pilgrim" Stoddard twice at least, tells the truth, straight as it may be (I don't like things sugar coated anyway), but still loses the girl gets no credit for killing Valance and dies in the end. So why is his character so abused?

Another thing I love is the names: Ransom Stoddard, Tom Doniphon, Pompey, Link Appleyard, Liberty Valance, Dutton Peabody, Cassius Starbuckle. All very interesting names.



Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Sackett on July 09, 2006, 08:48:47 PM
One of my favorites also.  Lee Marvin's portrayal of Valence puts him right up there as one of cinema's best meanies.  He almost recreates that character again in The Comancheros ( I think his role is far too short). Or did he do that movie first?
No, Tom Donathan didn't do anything wrong.  Maybe thats why characters like that are sad and they can get yuour emotions going.  They don't deserve it.  Maybe its like life, you don't always get the happy ending.
Like Eastwood said in Unforgiven, "deserves got nothin to do with it."
Lots of time I'll leave a movie and just think, that was nice, or interesting.  But if a movie gets me all worked up on some kind of emotional level, then I figure it was a good one.  Liberty Valence is one of those.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Groggy on July 10, 2006, 04:35:57 PM
Yeah, I love the movie as you well know.  It's very cheaply made, so technically it isn't great, but it has a great story, an excellent screenplay, and most importantly, one of the best film casts ever assembled IMO.  Now I know a lot of guys find Edmond O'Brien and John Carradine's hamming it up annoying, but I'm not one of them.  John Wayne and Jimmy Stewart are at the top of their game, Woody Strode is as cool as ever (he really should've been a much bigger star than he was), there are amusing vaudeville-esque supporting characters like O'Brien, Carradine, Andy Devine, John Quinland, Denver Pile, and Ken Murray, plus Lee Marvin, Strother Martin, and Lee Van Cleef as some of the nastiest bad guys in any film ever.  All that's missing are Maureen O'Hara and Victor McLaglen.  ;D

The story of the movie appeals to me, it's both cynical and optimistic at the same time.  Similar to some of Peckinpah's films, even while criticizing US society/history there's still a ray of hope/positivity that shines through.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Beebs on July 10, 2006, 05:50:23 PM
I actually think Edmond O'Brien was great in the movie. An eccentic newspaper man with a wonderful vocabulary and gift at the English language. Some of his acting that would be considered "cheesy" I think is only part of the character.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: cigar joe on July 11, 2006, 05:42:45 AM
I've allways thought that Lee Marvin didn't have enough screen time, I think if more emphasis was put on that part of the story it would have been better.

I've felt the same about Palance in Shane.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Groggy on July 11, 2006, 06:10:54 AM
I actually think Edmond O'Brien was great in the movie. An eccentic newspaper man with a wonderful vocabulary and gift at the English language. Some of his acting that would be considered "cheesy" I think is only part of the character.

I agree, I'm not a big fan of O'Brien (didn't really care for him in "The Wild Bunch") but he was very good here.  Peabody was a very well-learned man who believed in what he was doing, he only really tended to be overly-eloquent when he was drunk.  I love when he was giving the "Henry V" speech just before being pummelled by Liberty's goons.  ;D


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Tim on July 11, 2006, 11:09:25 AM
  TMWSLB also has another great flashback, a la OUATITW even if it was made a few years earlier, when Doniphon explains what really happened that night when Stoddard shot Liberty Valance. 

  My only problem, well major problem, with the movie is the sets.  With a few exceptions, the movie is shot on a studio set or at least it looks like it to me.  For me, it makes the movie seem like a TV western similar to Gunsmoke or The Rifleman.

  Still a great movie, and Wayne and Strode together are just cool, plain and simple.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: The Peacemaker on July 11, 2006, 12:52:26 PM
Lee Marvin's Liberty Valance is one of the nastiest villians in an American western. And I agree with Beebs, Edmond O' Brien's character was very cool.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Groggy on July 11, 2006, 04:27:41 PM
Good point about the sets Tim, and I agree, though I don't really mind it. 

Contrary to popular belief, Ford did not choose to shoot on sets for "nostalgia" or whatever, according to one of the Duke's biographers the movie was made on a very low budget because Paramount was being very penny-pinching at the time the film was being made. 

I love Lee Marvin as Liberty, he gives Angel Eyes and Frank a run for their money as the greatest Western villain ever (at least in my book).  He's a completely nasty guy but is nonetheless very cool and suave, and is very well-written.  And Marvin, needless to say, was perfectly cast.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Leone Admirer on July 12, 2006, 08:23:05 PM
TMWSLV is one of my fave Ford movies. My fave perf in the film is Jimmy Stewart whose opening scenes make him look like a more flawed version of Abe in the excellent Young Mr Lincoln.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Silenzio on September 09, 2006, 11:58:24 PM
Jimmy Stewart AND John Wayne!? How can you go wrong? On my list of top American westerns, this would be a strong number three.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: The Firecracker on January 30, 2007, 01:07:07 AM
Gave this a view last night. Like all of Ford's westerns it hasn't aged very well but it is a cut above the rest for me. Wayne was thankfully kept on the sidelines as Stewart lights up the screen.
Marvin is fun as the sadistic Valance. Van Cleef is sadly typecast (per usual for all of his films before 1965) as the menacing brute and does little else but look mean.

TMTSLV is a good picture with a tight storyline (unlike Ford's "Searchers" which rambles a lot) and has a nice twist at the end.




Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: The Peacemaker on January 30, 2007, 04:03:36 PM
I love this movie. Definitely my all-time favorite AW.

This features one of the sickest villains in film history, LIBERTY VALANCE!!!!  >:D

Stewart and Wayne are at their best here.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: tucumcari bound on February 06, 2007, 02:09:22 PM
It's up there with John Fords best for sure. It's a fantastic movie, and the cast is incredible. I love the little ending twist as well.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Leone Admirer on February 06, 2007, 03:21:25 PM
Agree its one of his best and any film with Jimmy Stewart and John Wayne has to rank highly with me  O0


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: KevinJCBJK on July 11, 2007, 11:51:02 PM
I really enjoyed this film, got me hungry for steak, potatoes, beans, and apple pie  ;D


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Silenzio on July 11, 2007, 11:52:42 PM
I really enjoyed this film, got me hungry for steak, potatoes, beans, and apple pie  ;D

"That's my steak, pilgrim."

Quite possibly the best thing John Wayne ever said.


I really need to see this film again.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: KevinJCBJK on July 11, 2007, 11:55:42 PM
Yeah, that was my favorite scene in the movie, especially when James Stewart when crazy and picked up the steak. I love his acting, really puts aside his "Nice guy" persona. What film did he do where he went on a death hunt?


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Silenzio on July 12, 2007, 12:04:15 AM
Yeah, that was my favorite scene in the movie, especially when James Stewart when crazy and picked up the steak. I love his acting, really puts aside his "Nice guy" persona. What film did he do where he went on a death hunt?

Well, if you're talking about a western, you're probably thinking of one of the Stewart/Anthony Mann collaborations (of which I've only seen Winchester '73, and badly want to see the others).

This is one of the few movies where I watched it... and then again the next day.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: KevinJCBJK on July 12, 2007, 12:05:16 AM
I don't think it's that one...Martin Scorsese mentioned it in his talk about American Westerns....


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Groggy on July 12, 2007, 06:03:42 AM
I don't think it's that one...Martin Scorsese mentioned it in his talk about American Westerns....

"Two Rode Together"? "The Naked Spur"? "Bend of the River"?

And I'm glad I'm not the only who gets hungry watching this movie. . .  ;D


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: KevinJCBJK on July 12, 2007, 10:10:30 AM
The Naked Spur! Yeah that's the one.

Yeah, something about westerns just makes me want to eat, especially The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: tucumcari bound on July 12, 2007, 10:13:07 AM
The Naked Spur! Yeah that's the one.

Yeah, something about westerns just makes me want to eat, especially The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.

Speaking of westerns that make you want to eat. The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly comes to mind first when I think of this. The scene where Van Cleef is introduced when he sits down at the table and starts eating before any words spoken. hahaha classic scene.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: KevinJCBJK on July 12, 2007, 10:15:07 AM
Yeah that was a great scene, a great way to introduce the villian. That movie also made me hungry.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Rojo Ramone on July 20, 2007, 02:43:27 PM
Watched this last night for the first time and i have to say it's one of John Wayne's and John Ford's best films.
Every character was colourful, great dialogue and beautifully photographed in bw.
One of my favourite AW.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: The Peacemaker on July 20, 2007, 02:43:59 PM
My favorite AW.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: tucumcari bound on July 20, 2007, 05:44:18 PM
My favorite AW.

It's up there with my favorite American Westerns also. Great film!


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: KevinJCBJK on July 20, 2007, 07:27:01 PM
I thought James Stewart stole the movie from Wayne, although he was the actual lead character.  Even with John Wayne's shining moment when he tried to get Liberty to pick of his steak, James goes and steals the show. Incredible.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: titoli on July 20, 2007, 07:30:53 PM
And Lee Marvin steals it from both of them.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: The Peacemaker on July 20, 2007, 08:18:46 PM
And Lee Marvin steals it from both of them.

I completely agree with you there.


Liberty Valance is one of the most evil screen villains of all time! I LOVED his performance!


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: tucumcari bound on July 20, 2007, 08:26:28 PM
Lee Marvin is a legend!


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: dave jenkins on July 20, 2007, 10:49:21 PM
"I'll bet you're a big Lee Marvin fan."


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Silenzio on July 20, 2007, 10:53:33 PM
"I'll bet you're a big Lee Marvin fan."

"C'mon, let me show ya what I got in my car."

"What, some fries to go with that soda?"

"No, I ate them already."


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: The Peacemaker on July 20, 2007, 10:59:18 PM
"C'mon, let me show ya what I got in my car."

"What, some fries to go with that soda?"

"No, I ate them already."

What's that from?


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Silenzio on July 20, 2007, 11:06:48 PM
Reservoir Dogs.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: The Firecracker on July 21, 2007, 12:04:59 AM
"I'll bet you're a big Lee Marvin fan."

what was the meaning of that joke in RD?


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Rojo Ramone on July 21, 2007, 11:59:08 AM
I didn't think anyone stood out as stealing the movie~I thought all the characters were great.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: lovelyrita on July 23, 2007, 09:33:27 PM
And Lee Marvin steals it from both of them.

I agree!


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: tucumcari bound on July 23, 2007, 09:47:49 PM
John Wayne, John Wayne, John Wayne! ;)


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: KevinJCBJK on July 25, 2007, 11:19:27 PM
James Stewart James Stewart James Stewart! O0


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Silenzio on July 25, 2007, 11:22:27 PM
I agree!

 I don't.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: tucumcari bound on July 25, 2007, 11:24:33 PM
James Stewart James Stewart James Stewart! O0

 ;D


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Silenzio on July 25, 2007, 11:25:31 PM
;D

Jimmy has never had a show stolen from him in his entire life.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: KevinJCBJK on July 25, 2007, 11:26:33 PM
Jimmy has never had a show stolen from him in his entire life.

That's right!


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: tucumcari bound on July 25, 2007, 11:31:48 PM
Jimmy was great in this yes, but so was Wayne.  O0


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: KevinJCBJK on July 25, 2007, 11:33:53 PM
Jimmy and John had great chemestry. I cheered when Jimmy punched John and knocked him on his @$$


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: tucumcari bound on July 25, 2007, 11:44:20 PM
Jimmy and John had great chemestry. I cheered when Jimmy punched John and knocked him on his @$$

hahahaha.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: KevinJCBJK on July 25, 2007, 11:45:47 PM
Wayne was asking for it in that scene. What a way to gain respect.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: tucumcari bound on July 25, 2007, 11:47:16 PM
Wayne was asking for it in that scene. What a way to gain respect.

This is true. Wayne and Stewart were good friends off screen. It must of been hard to punch his good friend. haha


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: KevinJCBJK on July 25, 2007, 11:48:27 PM
Assuming that punch was real. I heard Wayne asked these hippies to take down a viet cong flag at this republican convention because James's step son died in the war.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: tucumcari bound on July 25, 2007, 11:52:35 PM
Assuming that punch was real. I heard Wayne asked these hippies to take down a viet cong flag at this republican convention because James's step son died in the war.

Yeah, I've heard about this story myself. I wonder if there's any truth to it? mmm ???


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: KevinJCBJK on July 25, 2007, 11:56:42 PM
who knows? but it would seem unwise to turn down a request like that from John Wayne.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: tucumcari bound on July 26, 2007, 12:01:50 AM
who knows? but it would seem unwise to turn down a request like that from John Wayne.

Why the hell would someone put up a Viet Cong flag anyway?! I would of tore that piece of crap down myself.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Silenzio on July 26, 2007, 12:03:39 AM
who knows? but it would seem unwise to turn down a request like that from John Wayne.

(http://www.cardboardcutout.net/sites/1/images/prod23/primary/medium/000501.jpg)


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: The Firecracker on July 26, 2007, 12:04:28 AM
Wayne used to hold punching games much like the "feather punching" game in THE ALAMO.

So I'm sure he was used to getting whacked in the face a lot.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: tucumcari bound on July 26, 2007, 12:12:31 AM
Wayne used to hold punching games much like the "feather punching" game in THE ALAMO.

So I'm sure he was used to getting whacked in the face a lot.

haha John kills me. He was his own person boy. You gotta respect that.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: KevinJCBJK on July 26, 2007, 12:13:35 AM
I heard he was offerend a chance to run for president but turned down because he didn't think an actor had a chance of winning. My dad says if he'd won he would have nuked Vietnam.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: tucumcari bound on July 26, 2007, 12:16:49 AM
I heard he was offerend a chance to run for president but turned down because he didn't think an actor had a chance of winning. My dad says if he'd won he would have nuked Vietnam.

HAHAHAHAHAHA, bro that post is fricking hilarious. I dunno, when I was reading it, the line "My dad says if he won he would have nuked Vietnam." lol I can imagine you typed that line all serious. That's what so great about it.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: KevinJCBJK on July 26, 2007, 12:18:31 AM
Yeah I do admit I kept a straight face typing that up. I thought it was funny when he told me.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Silenzio on July 26, 2007, 12:20:11 AM
My favorite Ted Nugent quote:

"The only mistake we made in Iraq was not going all Nagasaki on their ass."


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: tucumcari bound on July 26, 2007, 12:20:38 AM
Yeah I do admit I kept a straight face typing that up. I thought it was funny when he told me.

I honestly think your dad was right my friend. Your father sounds like my father. That's something he would say.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: KevinJCBJK on July 26, 2007, 12:22:52 AM
I honestly think your dad was right my friend. Your father sounds like my father. That's something he would say.

Yeah, and what's really cool is that my grandpa, seems to be possessed by John Wayne's departed soul.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: tucumcari bound on July 26, 2007, 12:24:42 AM
Yeah, and what's really cool is that my grandpa, seems to be possessed by John Wayne's departed soul.

Oh, my dad is obsessed with Mr. Wayne as well. My father has a John Wayne Framed picture hung up in the dining room! lol, my mother fought with him for years to take it down. It came down but it eventually went back up again. My dad loves the Duke so I know where your grandfather is coming from.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: KevinJCBJK on July 26, 2007, 12:26:13 AM
I have a plaque of the Duke somewhere my brother sent me from Arizona.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: tucumcari bound on July 26, 2007, 12:29:02 AM
I have a plaque of the Duke somewhere my brother sent me from Arizona.

You better hold on to that. I love things like that. I have quite a few John Wayne pictures.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: KevinJCBJK on July 26, 2007, 12:30:03 AM
Yeah I want to put it in my room, just need to find the right space on my wall, for it.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: tucumcari bound on July 26, 2007, 12:36:00 AM
Yeah I want to put it in my room, just need to find the right space on my wall, for it.

Good man!


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Rojo Ramone on July 26, 2007, 12:22:51 PM
IMO no-one stole this movie from the Duke. O0


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: tucumcari bound on July 26, 2007, 01:06:36 PM
IMO no-one stole this movie from the Duke. O0

 O0


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: dave jenkins on February 28, 2009, 07:46:42 AM
2-disc SE coming May 19: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001TWT0AE/ref=nosim?tag=dvdbeaver-20&link_code=as3&creativeASIN=B001TWT0AE&creative=373489&camp=211189


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: dave jenkins on May 07, 2009, 05:32:19 PM
Beaver's take on the Centenial edition DVD: http://www.dvdbeaver.com/FILM/DVDReviews8/man-who-shot-liberty-valance.htm


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Groggy on May 08, 2009, 08:04:01 AM
You know, it's been at least three years since I've seen this movie. It's desperately in need of a rewatch.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 11, 2012, 11:22:51 PM
So I just saw this movie for the second time. When I first began watching Westerns 3 years ago, I began with many of the famous Ford films  but basically have not seen them since. So decided to go back and watch 'em all again, and I began with TMWSLV

Well, I am so blown away, I can't even begin to describe. No doubt this is on my top 10 list of AW's. Maybe even my Top 5.


 Unfuckingbelievable. This movie is just so wonderful. I'm almost speechless (sorry Groggy, you know I am never really speechless  :P... btw Grogs, funny, I just noticed that the last post on this thread is from you, 3 years ago, saying that it's been 3 years since you saw the movie and it's in a need of a re-watch. That was around the time I first saw it, and now I just re-watched it, 3 years later ;))


Stewart, Wayne, Miles, Marvin, Strode, all terrific. The newspaper editor as well, as was Carradine in the election scene. That whole scene was amazing.

Two criticisms on the movie: A) the Andy Devine sheriff character was just plain ludicrous. You can show an incompetent sheriff without having him being the village idiot too. And B) This movie is lacking the wonderful sense of location that Westerns should have. You virtually never see any landscapes (except in the opening shot of the train and in a few scenes by Wayne's house). All the exteriors look just like they are in a studio. And that is a shame for a Western, cuz a great town set adds so much to the movie. Eg. Carlo Simi's town sets added so much to Leone's movies. There are so many exterior scenes in TMWSLV where you just feels as if it's shot in a tight set on a studio backlot, and there are no wide angle shots or establishing shots. It does detract from the movie. And one more thing -- this movie is obviously a conscious comment on the life of the West and progress and the end of the Old West etc. But did anyone feel that maybe these themes were brought out a bit too literally, and a bit more subtlety could have been better?

Anyway, this movie is simply a masterpiece! 10/10 O0 O0 O0

I rented the dvd from Netflix -- it was the Centennial version. Picture looks beautiful.

btw, DVD Beaver mentions that the Centennial version shows a little more information on bottom of the screen. But, it is evident from his screen grabs -- and he neglects to mention this -- that the Centennial version shows less information on top of the screen.





Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 12, 2012, 12:37:08 AM

I love Lee Marvin as Liberty, he gives Angel Eyes and Frank a run for their money as the greatest Western villain ever (at least in my book).  He's a completely nasty guy but is nonetheless very cool and suave, and is very well-written.  And Marvin, needless to say, was perfectly cast.

IMO Indio is by far and away the greatest Western villain ever. But after him, those guys you mention are definitely among the greatest


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: stanton on June 12, 2012, 05:39:05 AM


Two criticisms on the movie: A) the Andy Devine sheriff character was just plain ludicrous. You can show an incompetent sheriff without having him being the village idiot too. And B) This movie is lacking the wonderful sense of location that Westerns should have. You virtually never see any landscapes (except in the opening shot of the train and in a few scenes by Wayne's house). All the exteriors look just like they are in a studio. And that is a shame for a Western, cuz a great town set adds so much to the movie. Eg. Carlo Simi's town sets added so much to Leone's movies. There are so many exterior scenes in TMWSLV where you just feels as if it's shot in a tight set on a studio backlot, and there are no wide angle shots or establishing shots. It does detract from the movie.


Don't you think that the lack of location was done on purpose considering the film's content?

Do you know what a wide angle shot is? And how it looks?

What I don't like in TMWSLV is again, just like in all films of Ford, the silly humour. Not only the Devine charakter in this film, but he's the most annoying. And the film is often too theatric.

But a very important film for the genre in any case.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Cusser on June 12, 2012, 07:38:57 AM
Yep, saw this also in theater when originally released, great film.  And the theme "print the legend" is the basis for a zillion other films.

Y'all know that the popular song "The Man who Shot Liberty Valance" was not ready in time for the film's release, so came out after. 

Y'all notice the size of the steaks on the platters in the restaurant?  My friend's favorite scene in any film !!!  And notice that the steak almost falls off the platter when Jimmy Stewart slams it down on the plate, they used that scene as is.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Groggy on June 12, 2012, 12:51:23 PM
Y'all notice the size of the steaks on the platters in the restaurant?  My friend's favorite scene in any film !!!  And notice that the steak almost falls off the platter when Jimmy Stewart slams it down on the plate, they used that scene as is.

Yeah, just watching the restaurant scenes makes me mighty hungry.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Groggy on June 12, 2012, 12:55:02 PM
Don't you think that the lack of location was done on purpose considering the film's content?

William Clothier (the DoP) is quoted a number of places saying the film was made on the cheap, necessitating black and white photography and the set-bound setting. There does seem to be some conflicting testimony on this score, however.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 12, 2012, 01:21:21 PM
yeah, those are some mighty big steaks!


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: stanton on June 12, 2012, 02:17:25 PM
William Clothier (the DoP) is quoted a number of places saying the film was made on the cheap, necessitating black and white photography and the set-bound setting. There does seem to be some conflicting testimony on this score, however.

But it fits the film anyway. It is the only Ford film which does not need any spectacular outdoor scenes. Well, 2 Rode Together could fit in the same category, as it is basically a bleak film.

And why should a film with Wayne and Stewart get only a b-picture budget? Both were still big stars with a loyal audience.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Groggy on June 12, 2012, 02:35:07 PM
The impression I get is that Ford did the film mostly to fulfill a contract with Paramount. I'll have to dig out my sources later to be sure of the circumstances.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: mike siegel on June 13, 2012, 11:11:54 AM
John Ford being one of the few truly great American artists of the 20th century, his body of work should be embraced by every film lover I feel. But to appreciate 50, or even 70, 80 year old films one must put them into context and watch them equipped with antennas to catch the artist ambitions and subjects. VALANCE is next to GRAPES OF WRATH and HOW GREEN WAS MY VALLEY my favorite Ford film. Those other two are flawless masterpieces, but VALANCE (as does SEARCHERS and THE QUIET MAN) comes pretty close.

It was by no means a 'low-budget' production. Those rumours were probably picked up once decades ago and then made the rounds - even until now. It's budget was over $3 Million, Wayne alone got $750.000. Ford had bought the (Cosmopolitian) story himself for his own company and later brought the project to Paramount because Wayne had just signed a 7-picture deal with the studio (HATARI!; VALANCE, DONOVANS REEF, IN HARMS WAY, KATIE ELDER, EL DORADO, TRUE GRIT).
Ford decided for black & white mainly because of one scene: he wanted the 'shooting of Valance' in the good old Greg Toland style, light & shadows. Also of course color was not really needed, no big vistas were part of the story. This is not a film about scenery or the wide open country of the west, it was an allegory of American history. Ford avoided 'beautiful' vistas, wide shots, color and a large number of sets to heighten to importance of the dialogue. The absence of landscapes is a testimony of Ford's loss of faith in the American frontier, a process that had started years earlier. Masterful in it's economical style it is quite fascinating that Ford's cinematic testament is a more or less theatrical film. After all, Ford was celebrated as the best visual Director for decades prior to VALANCE. A touching and important 'good bye' by the western films' oldtimers made the same year Randolph Scott & Joel McCrea gave their farewell in RIDE THE HIGH COUNTRY. VALANCE's themes of the changing and therefore dying west from now on became the subject of the films of Ford's succesor, Sam Peckinpah. The two met only once, on the doorstep at MGM.

some of my first release posters:
(http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2205/12662154/22526233/374261397.jpg)(http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2205/12662154/22526233/374261393.jpg)(http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2205/12662154/22526233/374261390.jpg)(http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2205/12662154/22526233/374261389.jpg)(http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2205/12662154/22526233/374261385.jpg)(http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2205/12662154/22526233/374261319.jpg)(http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2205/12662154/22526233/374261315.jpg)


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Groggy on June 13, 2012, 11:20:04 AM
Thanks for clearing things up Mr. Siegel. I stand corrected. O0


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 13, 2012, 03:12:40 PM
Ford's final 2 Westerns (not counting the segments of How the West Was Won) were The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance and Cheyenne Autumn, so you can definitely say that in the twilight of his Western career, Ford was re-evaluating the Western myths (about American idealism and treatment of Indians) that he had had a part in creating.

As for the other Ford movies mentioned by mike siegel: I didn't care much for How Green Was My Valley or The Quiet Man. With The Grapes of Wrath, I'll freely admit that it is hard for me to judge a movie fairly as a piece of art when I so staunchly disagree with its politics. The other Ford non-Western I've seen is The Informer, that's a good movie featuring a well-deserved Oscar performance by the great Victor McLaglen.
I saw The Searchers twice, and I've never really understood its great appeal. There are 6 Ford Westerns that I love: TMWSLV, Fort Apache, The Horse Soldiers, She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, Stagecoach, and My Darling Clementine.

p.s. I went to a diner early this morning and gave serious consideration to the deep dish apple pie. But I ultimately I chose the blueberry   :P


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: mike siegel on June 14, 2012, 03:40:25 AM
A similar taste leads to an understanding smile and a connection, but even our closest (film) friends can't share the love for our Top 20 films. Since I'm 10 years old I eat up (most) films on an emotional level, that's why I often find it very difficult to read threads in forums about films that are very dear to me. In those last 35 years I could never fully understand why certain social issues well-handled by great film makers are not universally welcomed and cherished. But that's good, too understand everything, or even the thought of it, is very dangerous.
GRAPES, VALLEY and SEARCHERS do not work if the eyes of the viewer are not wet at least 2 - 3 times while watching them. Come to think of it, I get wet eyes watching 9 out of my Top 10 films. Well, I have to see 2001 again and watch myself. Maybe tears will come due to its greatness.
This is all close to discussing poetry, which doesn't make much sense (I think). Some people cry watching a beautiful sundown, others while standing on a mountain top. How can one explain emotions ? Boy, that discussions always comes up when discussing THE WILD BUNCH after a screening and there's always the group weeping at the end, and the other guys almost laughing: 'are you guys serious? why are you so shattered ??'
They go for the action (almost exclusively) , for us the emotional level, the brillant characterisations and the beauty of the film stands in the foreground. The (unmatchable) action is there anyway of course.

This all is one of the reasons too why I adore Leone. GBU is among my Top 10. But the $$ films don't make me weep, only out of joy when having the chance to see them on the big screen of course. But GIU LA TESTA had a scene that made me cry. In 1981 and even now. The Dead Sons is still among my Top 3 Morricone compositions. And OUATIA has many of such scenes. My kind of cinema. Yet OUATITW and the $$ films are so good I have to watch them every year ... Long live Leone



Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 14, 2012, 04:56:40 AM
A similar taste leads to an understanding smile and a connection, but even our closest (film) friends can't share the love for our Top 20 films. Since I'm 10 years old I eat up (most) films on an emotional level, that's why I often find it very difficult to read threads in forums about films that are very dear to me. In those last 35 years I could never fully understand why certain social issues well-handled by great film makers are not universally welcomed and cherished. But that's good, too understand everything, or even the thought of it, is very dangerous.
GRAPES, VALLEY and SEARCHERS do not work if the eyes of the viewer are not wet at least 2 - 3 times while watching them. Come to think of it, I get wet eyes watching 9 out of my Top 10 films. Well, I have to see 2001 again and watch myself. Maybe tears will come due to its greatness.
This is all close to discussing poetry, which doesn't make much sense (I think). Some people cry watching a beautiful sundown, others while standing on a mountain top. How can one explain emotions ? Boy, that discussions always comes up when discussing THE WILD BUNCH after a screening and there's always the group weeping at the end, and the other guys almost laughing: 'are you guys serious? why are you so shattered ??'
They go for the action (almost exclusively) , for us the emotional level, the brillant characterisations and the beauty of the film stands in the foreground. The (unmatchable) action is there anyway of course.

This all is one of the reasons too why I adore Leone. GBU is among my Top 10. But the $$ films don't make me weep, only out of joy when having the chance to see them on the big screen of course. But GIU LA TESTA had a scene that made me cry. In 1981 and even now. The Dead Sons is still among my Top 3 Morricone compositions. And OUATIA has many of such scenes. My kind of cinema. Yet OUATITW and the $$ films are so good I have to watch them every year ... Long live Leone



I am not really the crying type. I don't say that with any disdain or machismo, it's just a fact. But I will say this -- I came very near it while watching TMWSLV. When I was younger and used to hear people say they cried during movies, I thought it was silly, because they were generally crying over something sad that happened in the movie. Well, a movie is fake, so why cry over something sad that happens when you know it's only happening between "Action" and "Cut"?

But now I have come to realize that sometimes art can stir people in such a way that they cry -- it's not out of sadness at what happened, but the sheer beauty of it. Certain feelings bring out such insane emotions, the only thing you can do is cry, over the sheer beauty of it. I've never really cried tears but there have been moments where I got really choked up and emotional, when seeing a beautiful piece of art. TMWSLV did it to me. The end of OUATITW often does -- especially the final duel; that music is so unbelievably perfect for that scene it is hard to put into words how brilliant it is. And sometimes we can't put something into words, so we can only cry. Like when looking at a beautiful piece of art. I get chills every time I watch the video of Secretariat's performance in the 1973 Belmont, which was the greatest race ever run: 1.5 miles in 2:24, winning by 35 lengths. The announcer said on that day that the mark may never be broken, and it still hasn't, 30 years later. I just get chills watching him run, with the announcer uttering the now iconic, "Secretariat is widening now! He is moving like a tremendous machine!"


With that said, everyone handles emotions differently. Some people are like me and never actually cry. Others do. Everyone, male and female, handles emotions differently, and I wouldn't say that someone doesn't appreciate a movie if they haven't cried while watching it. (In that case I have never appreciated a movie!) Some people just don't cry; everyone expresses their emotions differently. And I don't get too emotional about a movie to the point where I basically refuse to acknowledge other people's rights to argue against it, or ask questions about it.

as for you statement RE: my comment about [iThe Grapes of Wrath [/i]that you could "never fully understand why certain social issues well-handled by great film makers are not universally welcomed and cherished": I'm not sure what that means. Do I have to accept a movie made about a social issue just because it was made by a great film-maker, and just because it was done well in an artistic sense? I am not denying that from a purely film-making standpoint, TGOR was done well. But it is hard for me to like it because I so staunchly disagree with its message.

When watching a movie, I definitely don't try to think too much about its political message -- if I did, I would never enjoy any Spags, a large number of which have very Socialist messages. I try to just accept the filmmaker's point of view and enjoy it as a piece of art. But there are some instances where the whole movie is all about a political message, and it is absolutely impossible to ignore that point. And that applies whether you agree or disagree with the message.
 Is it possible to discuss Dances With Wolves -- which btw I loved from a movie standpoint -- without addressing its treatment of whites (which IMO was just as ludicrous of the 40's Westerns treatment of Indians? Is it possible to discuss October Baby without addressing the issue of abortion? (That movie meant a lot to me as a big pro-life advocate [not to mention the fact that I know a woman with a very similar story to the main character in that movie]).

When one's own opinions on the movie's message will affect his analysis of it, IMO the most honest thing to do is state where you are coming from so that the reader will know, and will understand the context your discussion is coming from. When I discussed October Baby, I stated where I stood on abortion. When I discussed Dances With Wolves, I stated how ludicrous the treatment of whites was. And I can't consider The Grapes of Wrath without addressing the issue that I couldn't possibly disagree more with the theme of the story, which is Socialism, plain and simple, though the word is never used. Capitalists are portrayed as greedy abusive scoundrels, while the only moral camp is the one run by the federal government. Call it "socialism," "communism," "collectivism," or whatever you wanna call it, but as someone who believes that the free market has been the greatest boon to prosperity for all, and that socialism is thoroughly immoral and causes poverty, TGOR is not a movie I could enjoy. I'm not gonna watch a message-movie, without considering its message. For me, TGOR is a bunch of Commie crap. And that is why, even though it's made by a great film-maker, I don't welcome and cherish it.





Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Groggy on June 14, 2012, 09:20:22 AM
I can sympathize up to a point drink. It's hard to watch movies are excessively strident in promoting a point-of-view. My opinions on Stanley Kramer, the Billy Jack movies and certain Oliver Stone movies are of-record. Last time I watched JFK I was literally screaming at certain parts of it.

That said, ideological concerns ought be secondary to aesthetic ones. The problem I have with, say, Inherit the Wind isn't its politics or even the message, but that's conveyed in a ham-fisted and obnoxious manner. A Man for All Seasons and The Crucible present similar dilemmas much better, and in a more entertaining fashion. I can hate a message film even if I agree with the message. I can like a movie without subscribing to its point-of-view.
   
   In any case, what on Earth is wrong with an alternative message? I enjoy Battle of Algiers or Strike without subscribing to Marxism. I appreciate Triumph of the Will without being a Nazi. I admire A Man for All Seasons without being a Catholic. I (mostly) enjoy JFK or Nixon without being a conspiracy nut. I can watch Gunga Din or The Four Feathers without advocating imperialism, or old-fashioned Westerns without being a white supremacist. One should at least engage a work of art whether or not its worldview agrees with yours.

It's very close-minded to restrict quality cinema to movies that adhere to your beliefs. But hey, if you wish to occupy such a crabbed position, that's your call.   


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 14, 2012, 01:57:50 PM
I can sympathize up to a point drink. It's hard to watch movies are excessively strident in promoting a point-of-view. My opinions on Stanley Kramer, the Billy Jack movies and certain Oliver Stone movies are of-record. Last time I watched JFK I was literally screaming at certain parts of it.

That said, ideological concerns ought be secondary to aesthetic ones. The problem I have with, say, Inherit the Wind isn't its politics or even the message, but that's conveyed in a ham-fisted and obnoxious manner. A Man for All Seasons and The Crucible present similar dilemmas much better, and in a more entertaining fashion. I can hate a message film even if I agree with the message. I can like a movie without subscribing to its point-of-view.
   
   In any case, what on Earth is wrong with an alternative message? I enjoy Battle of Algiers or Strike without subscribing to Marxism. I appreciate Triumph of the Will without being a Nazi. I admire A Man for All Seasons without being a Catholic. I (mostly) enjoy JFK or Nixon without being a conspiracy nut. I can watch Gunga Din or The Four Feathers without advocating imperialism, or old-fashioned Westerns without being a white supremacist. One should at least engage a work of art whether or not its worldview agrees with yours.

It's very close-minded to restrict quality cinema to movies that adhere to your beliefs. But hey, if you wish to occupy such a crabbed position, that's your call.  

I agree that ideological concerns are secondary to aesthetic ones. It's actually very rare that I'll be watching a movie but I just completely tuned myself out after a while cuz it's hit-you-over-the-head message is ridiculous. Off the top of my head, I can't even remember any other instance where this happened, (though I have not seen any of the movies you mentioned). But The Grapes of Wrath was one case where once I realized what it was all about, I just couldn't enjoy it any more.

As I said, when discussing a message-movie, I  address the message, but that is far from everything.  I thoroughly enjoy the good SW's even though I know that many of them are political movies made by hardcore Leftists.  And even after criticizing Dances With Wolves's cartoonish treatment of whites, I still rated it a 9/10 cuz it was a very enjoyable movie.

However, each person has a certain line that once you cross that, it's hard for him to enjoy a movie and forget the fact that he finds the message is ridiculous. The Grapes of Wrath crossed that line for me; it is an exception, not the rule. I was actually enjoying the movie -- and I've been clear that strictly from an aesthetic standpoint, the movie was made well -- basically until the part where they arrive at the gov't camp. (I'd never read the book so I didn't know anything about the story when I began watching the movie). This film is a straight-up hit you over the head with a message. And that message was just plain stupid.

So I feel the most honest thing I could do is to be clear about why I didn't like the movie. And if someone asks me whether I'd recommend TGOW, my response would be "If you can enjoy 129 minutes of socialism that was made well from an artistic standpoint, then definitely see it. But if you are a staunch believer that Socialism is thoroughly evil and won't forget that for these 129 minutes, then don't see the movie. Cuz that is what it's about, beginning to end." I guess that's one thing that makes TGOW different for me: there are many movies involving gangsters or Westerns or other stuff that have Leftist themes, and I don't mind. But in TGOW it's just plain hit you over the head beginning to end all about that and nothing else. There's no way to avoid it, no way to focus on anything else. Capitalism = poverty, misery, and abuse; Collectivism = happiness. Well that's ridiculous.




Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Groggy on June 14, 2012, 03:11:03 PM
Fair enough for most of your comment. That's a reasonable position and I agree with most of it.

I really don't understand this harping on Grapes though. It's a liberal story for sure, but "propaganda"? What exactly does it falsify? Everything I've read indicates Steinbeck and Ford greatly toned down what the Okies went through in the Dust Bowl era.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on June 14, 2012, 04:02:05 PM
Fair enough for most of your comment. That's a reasonable position and I agree with most of it.

I really don't understand this harping on Grapes though. It's a liberal story for sure, but "propaganda"? What exactly does it falsify? Everything I've read indicates Steinbeck and Ford greatly toned down what the Okies went through in the Dust Bowl era.

I am not disputing the incredible hardships that the Okies went through. I've seen pictures and read accounts of lives -- across America -- during the Great Depression, that could make me cry. My problem is that the way the movie portrays it, the source of all these problems is Evil Capitalism and the source for all the good is Big Government.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: emmo26 on December 19, 2012, 07:31:59 AM
Would you say TMWSLV and  Rio Bravo were the first of a few films which popularize the word "dude" into main stream culture?



I know that the word "pilgrim" didn´t quite make the cut.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Tex on March 05, 2013, 09:28:41 PM
On the issue of crying in movies, I've been reading Mortimer Adler and Charles Van Doren's How to Read a Book. There's a chapter on reading "Stories" in which they recommend that the reader read the story quickly, in one sitting if possible, and with full immersion. I think the same applies to movies. The audience has to live in the world of the author before they can judge it. If one is brought to tears, I imagine this would be a sign that one is on the right track. (Provided they are not bored to tears  ;))



Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Tex on March 05, 2013, 09:38:42 PM
Oh, and I have a question!

I just rewatched this, and I was struck (surprisingly for the first time) by the big lie, that is, the fact that Ransom has apparently never told anyone the truth about the man who shot Liberty Valence. Seeing as it's the title, I assume we're prompted to think about this. (Incidentally, see my post on titles if you have a title you'd like to discuss http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=11594.0). The lie reminds me of the lie in Conrad's Heart of Darkness, regarding Kurtz' last words. It's a tricky thing. What was right to do?

If he had told Hallie the truth, perhaps he would have lost her. I mean, that was the reason Tom kept the secret, to keep Hallie happy. And had he told the public, his career would have suffered. I suppose we are to think that he did a lot for the state. Hallie makes a comment about how the wilderness has become a garden, and "aren't you proud" she says to Rans. So was all this worth the lie? It is clear that the lie bothers Rans. The conductor's line at the end "Nothing is too good for the man who shot Liberty Valence" conjures a terribly moving expression on Ransom's face. One of sadness and perhaps guilt.

What do yall think?



Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 05, 2013, 11:40:20 PM
well I think Stoddard is portrayed as a positive character and I don't think he was intentionally lying to advance his political career. He just wanted a private law practice; he didn't have political aspirations until later on when the townsfolk convinced him to represent them. I agree that at the end when the conductor says nothing is too big for the man who shot liberty valance, Stoddard's face does show sadness or frustration.

I think Ford was just making a comment in general, that although his cinema generally has a very hopeful and positive view of the American West, American life, and the American Dream; he knows that much of it is myth and based on bullshit. Like how the reporter says the famous line, "This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." And Stoddard's whole long distinguished political career was begun on a falsehood (even though he wasn't trying to perpetuate that falsehood IMO). Also in Fort Apache, where Capt. York has personally witnessed the folly and arrogance of Col. Thursday, yet he perpetuates the myth of Thursday's greatness, because, as Ford said, he believed it's good for the country to have heroes to look up to.

So IMO it's Ford acknowledging the bullshit that some of this is all based on. Leone himself said that TMWSLV is his favorite Ford Western because at this point, Ford finally discovered pessimism. (Though I would argue that, as mentioned above, Fort Apache has a similar bit of cynicism at the end).


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on May 18, 2014, 10:05:31 PM
there's discussion about TMWSLV in the Fort Apache thread, specifically comparing the "print the legend" endings, the pessimism of the movies, and Leone's love for TMWSLV's pessimism. That discussion begins here http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=2799.msg171818#msg171818


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: dave jenkins on July 01, 2015, 08:33:52 AM
On blu, October 13th.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: titoli on July 01, 2015, 09:13:11 AM
Now, l don't remember it, but does Wayne shoot Marvin on the back?


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: cigar joe on July 01, 2015, 09:55:37 AM
Now, l don't remember it, but does Wayne shoot Marvin on the back?

More from the side, Wayne is in the side alley off the street.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on July 01, 2015, 11:47:06 AM
On blu, October 13th.

Finally!

Too late for me, though. I already have the UK, region-free, BRD.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: titoli on July 01, 2015, 10:08:28 PM
More from the side, Wayne is in the side alley off the street.

Yeah, thx.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: noodles_leone on October 01, 2015, 11:18:11 AM
Paramount Wants to Remake ‘The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance’
http://www.slashfilm.com/liberty-valance-remake/

Quote
Variety reports that Terence Winter (Boardwalk Empire, The Sopranos) was originally involved as a writer, but that a new writer is being sought now. The remake will be produced by Matt Jackson of IM Global, and in all likelihood it will not be a strict remake of the western setting featured in John Ford’s film.
 
This Liberty Valance remake could be set “in a relatively contemporary period, such as 1980s Western Pennsylvania amid the retrenchment of the steel and auto industries,” says Variety.

The Tracking Board also reports on the remake effort, saying that the outlaws of the original could be replaced with Polish gangsters, and that the remake will be “an urban crime/thriller in the vein of The Departed, The Town, and Mystic River.”

The original film begins 30 years after the primary action in the film, soon flashing back to the meat of the story three decades earlier. We can probably expect the remake to be structured in similar fashion, with modern bookend scenes and most of the action set, as mentioned, in the 1980s.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: dave jenkins on October 01, 2015, 01:33:53 PM
doesn't sound like a remake to me; just re-using an old title


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Cusser on October 03, 2015, 06:34:45 AM
OK, I'm old, I saw Liberty Valance when it was originally released, with my family as a little kid.  I just watched the trailer for it, and saw at the end of the trailer it stated includes "hear the legend come alive with the new hit song The Man who Shot Liberty Valance", I think when the trailer was made they assumed that the song would be in the film.  But I think Gene Pitney's hit song wasn't completed in time to get included in the film.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: titoli on October 03, 2015, 06:50:50 AM
OK, I'm old, I saw Liberty Valance when it was originally released, with my family as a little kid.  I just watched the trailer for it, and saw at the end of the trailer it stated includes "hear the legend come alive with the new hit song The Man who Shot Liberty Valance", I think when the trailer was made they assumed that the song would be in the film.  But I think Gene Pitney's hit song wasn't completed in time to get included in the film.

It isn't actually clear if the rushed release of the movie prevented the use of the song (Pitney was actually recording it when a musician in the studio, to the singer's amazement, told him the movie was playing down the street) or whether Ford turned it down when first heard it before it was recorded.

Anyway, this is the second movie I remember ever having seen (the first one was The Pit and the Pendulum) at a famous Tuscany spa with my grandpa.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Cusser on October 04, 2015, 07:07:14 AM
Well, it is a classic song, for sure !!!

This Youtube link states "Gene Pitney released this Burt Bacharach-Hal David song which peaked at US #4 in 1962. Though it shares its title with the 1962 John Ford western, "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance", starring John Wayne, the song was not used in the film because of a publishing dispute between Famous Music and Paramount"   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-sjvz6YKnQ

Any, good role for Lee Van Cleef in this film.  I believe this and How the West was Won were two of his last big jobs in US films before Sergio Leone "discovered" him for "For a Few Dollars More"; westerns in US were dying out, he was balding early, tough sell.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: stanton on October 04, 2015, 08:41:40 AM


Any, good role for Lee Van Cleef in this film.  I believe this and How the West was Won were two of his last big jobs in US films before Sergio Leone "discovered" him for "For a Few Dollars More"; westerns in US were dying out, he was balding early, tough sell.

Small job is the more adequate term.
Van Cleef was just an actor for mostly minor roles. Apart from Ride Lonesome I can't remember any substantial role before Leone rebuild him. And in Ride Lonesome he was the baddie, but with not much screentime, and it was a b-picture.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Moorman on February 18, 2017, 08:57:58 PM
Finished watching this for the first time. Excellent movie. I knew it was gonna be good because its in all the top westerns of all time lists. I'll get right to it:

1. Cinematography. Filmed in black and white.  Again, i love black and white cinema. This was filmed mostly on a Hollywood back lot. Except for the opening stagecoach scene, it worked very well and was no problem. That opening stagecoach scene was too tight.  The brief shots out on the plains were a welcome relief.

2. Script.  Very tight. I love tight scripts. Straight to the point. It had only one curve ball that worked very well towards the end.

3. Acting. Steward, Wayne, Strode, Marvin, Martin, they were all good.  Like has been mentioned earlier in this thread, Strode shouldve been a waay bigger star than he was.

4. Musical Score.  Really, i don't remember much from it.

Overall.  Excellent movie. It lived up to its billing. A definite keeper for your Blu Ray collection. I rate it a 8/10...


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: AlamoScout210 on February 20, 2017, 11:17:36 AM
Great movie, almost like a mini epic. Outstanding performances by everyone involved especially by Mr. Lee Marvin.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: Moorman on February 22, 2017, 05:45:57 AM
Great movie, almost like a mini epic. Outstanding performances by everyone involved especially by Mr. Lee Marvin.

Excellent movie. Loved almost everything about it...


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: titoli on April 19, 2017, 03:27:29 AM
Just read the Dorothy Johnson's original story. Many peculiarities of the film were devised by the screenplayers, first of all the "Print the legend" dictum. No Woody Strode, no O'Brien, no confrontations except the last one (the first meeting between the Stewart and Marvin characters are told in flashback, where Marvin gives him a beating leaving him half-dead just for the hell of it. Wayne saves him), the political career of Stewart is told in half-page. But what is markedly different is the Stewart character, not precisely positive, and his conflictual relationship with Wayne. I think that makes more sense that what is shown in the movie, but of course the figures of the actors make the difference. 


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on September 25, 2017, 10:43:58 AM
Just saw this movie again. (I think it's my fourth viewing.) Still a damn good movie, but gosh, it REALLY hits you over the head with the message, about the old world of guns vs. the new world of law & order, saying it explicitly again and again. My Darling Clementine had a similar theme (albeit without the cynicism over legend vs. fact) but managed to do it much more subtly. The Andy Devine character, so goddamned annoying. And, of course, this Western is too stagy.

The characters in the movie have such great names: Liberty Valance, Ransom Stoddard, Dutton Peabody, Link Appleyard .... but Wayne gets stuck with the crappy "Tom Doniphon."  :'(

Here is an interview with Lee Marvin, discussing this movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI1qBAVrjIs (BTW, there was some discussion earlier in this thread about whether the movie was shot in b/w rather than color because of budget restrictions. In this interview, Marvin discusses the advantages of b/w over color but makes no mention of any budget restrictions.)

In some discussions of this movie, I've seen people saying that Stoddard was a phony, he built his political career on a lie, etc. I don't agree with this. Yes, his political career was built on a lie, but through no fault of his own. Stoddard initially refuses the nomination to represent the territory in Washington; he's upset that people are supporting him because he killed a man. Stoddard only agrees to accept the nomination after Doniphon tells Stoddard that it was in fact Doniphon who had killed Valance. And then years later, at the end of the movie, when the train conductor tells Stoddard, "Nothing's too good for the man who shot Liberty Valance!" Stoddard sighs. He's upset that everyone is honoring him for this. What happened during all the years in between? Did he sigh every time someone mentioned that or did he smile? Who knows. But from what we see, Stoddard never promotes his "killing" of Liberty Valance. But, of course, the point remains that many supposed heroes are based on bullshit. Just like Colonel Thursday in Fort Apache.

And at the end, when Stoddard asks Hallie if she had put the cactus rose on Doniphon's coffin ... so Stoddard is upset about that? Really? Does this mean that all these years, his Hallie was in love with Doniphon? That's silly. Tom has died. Everyone is sad over it. Nothing wrong with Hallie putting the flower on the coffin. Hallie never showed an interest in Doniphon, and clearly made her choice for Stoddard. IMO, Stoddard asking Hallie if she put the flower on the coffin is stupid; it'd have been better if Stoddard had just seen the flower, maybe the camera holds on his face seeing the flower, but not having him say anything. But, again, this movie lacks subtly  ;)


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: dave jenkins on September 25, 2017, 06:12:37 PM
But, again, this movie lacks subtly  ;)
In other words, it's a John Ford movie?


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on September 27, 2017, 10:07:55 PM
In other words, it's a John Ford movie?

My Darling Clementine managed to get off a similar theme (albeit without the "print the legend" cynicism) without being preaching it so blatantly.


Title: Re: The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Post by: drinkanddestroy on September 27, 2017, 10:11:27 PM
To anybody who thinks that John Wayne was not an actor, just watch his scenes in Capitol City, and Wayne rolls in drunk and disheveled, miserable, knowing he has lost Hallie. Even if Wayne hadn't spoken a word during that scene, just his appearance tells it all.
Wayne could be "John Wayne" when he wanted to, and he could deliver Oscar-worthy acting performances when he wanted to.